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Do you think Creighton is really a murderer?...
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Do you think Creighton is really a murderer? We know for a fact that Pate's a cheat, a liar, and a betrayer, but I never saw Creighton do any murdering, aside from the one I helped him with.
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creighton is just as much a psycho as pate is. Whoever you kill is the innocent one.
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>>246385402

Neither of them are innocent. The only correct option is to kill Pate, get the reward from Creighton, then kill him too.
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DEEPEST LORE
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>>246385402
It's more like they're both criminals.
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>>246385575
>Mentioning the story of two characters with actual, non-implied, right-there-in-the-game history is now grounds for "DEEPEST LORE" comments
You know, if there were some mention of VaatiVidya in this thread, I'd get it. But I mean, I don't think you're even using that joke right.
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I like how Creighton's armor reminds me of Nameless Rank and File Soldier
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why do npc's permanently die when they should be spawning as hollows?
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>>246384215
time is distorted. creighton pate and cale are all the same person
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>>246386507
Perfect
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>>246386792
This is something I don't know about Dark Souls: can you come to Lordran/Drangleic without being cursed/undead? Or is everyone there either some kind of ancient creature, or cursed?
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>>246386792

Gameplay mechanics.

I think its more that they disappear from your timeline (as time is distorted yadda yadda). So they still exist in their world as a hollow, but the link to your world is severed. Same way that players leave your world when they die.
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>>246386990
You could but there would be no point besides mad loots. The reason people came to Drangleic was to cure the curse. Lordan was pretty much the epicenter of the whole beginning of the cycle.
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Yeah fuck Pate, who does that faggot think he is, helping me kill bosses, giving me his armor, and warning me about traps.
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>>246384215
They both are nuts. Pates not an in your face killer though. Like patches he'll let the environment sort you out promising you riches and happily stripping your corpse. Creighton seems like a straight psycho. Boon line is both are killers, they just use different weapons.
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>>246387646

What makes you think Creighton is a killer? He's out for revenge on Pate but there's nothing suggesting that he's a killer.

>in b4 Cale said so
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Doesn't Creighton's armor description say something like about how it's a high quality reproduction of the Mirrah military uniform?

Is there significance to that? Or just one of those trademark Dark Souls weird meaningless details thrown in for the sake of fuck all?
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>>246388001
It just means he went around murdering people disguised as a Mirrah footsoldier. That's all.
Creighton is a 1:1 copy of the first google image results for "hospitaller"
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>>246388001

The idea is that Creighton isn't actually from Mirrah, he just wears a replica armor.

It contradicts what Cale says about a murderer from Mirrah called Cray something.
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>>246388372
yeah but if his armor is a replica, and cale saw his armor, he'd assume he's from mirrah too
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>>246388698

Cale said he saw a guy who looked just like the murderer. But Creighton wears a replica of the typical soldier armor with facemask and everything. He'd look like a nobody.

On the other hand, Pate was in the same area as Cale and not wearing a mask. Connect the dots.
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if you kill creighton does he drop his armor, or can you only get it via the fight?
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>>246389081

He drops the mask, I think you can buy the rest from the merchant hag.
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>>246387646
What? Pate even warns you about the dangers.
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>>246389394

>being this clueless
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>>246387894
He tries to murder you shitface.
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>>246389714

When does Creighton try to murder you?
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>>246385550
Sounds like you're the only psychopath here
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>>246386507

10/10
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>>246389854
Well, to be fair, there is a point when he tries to murder you, but only after you swing a sword into his face.

In short, that poster is a retard.
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>>246389854
he directs you to open a chest he booby trapped
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>>246390030

Turns out the real killer is the protag
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>>246390098

>"a chest he (creighton) booby trapped"
>voice of the recently killed Pate laughs at you when you try and open it

Are you completely retarded?
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>>246390194

Whoever you let live is the one who talks

YOU are the actual retard, anon
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Cale is the real murderer.

The first time you meet him he tries rolling a boulder down on you. He then sends you to a mansion to get merked by a skeleton in the basement.

He later tells you that he saw a murderer from Mirrah. He's trying to make you believe Pate/Creighton is a murderer to hide the fact that he is the true killer.
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>>246386990
they retconned how the curse worked in DaSII. it use to drive people insane and turn them hollow, but now it makes you lose your memory but you keep your sanity. Though for some reason the undead blacksmith doesn't... ya das2 is just fucked
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>>246390289

The point is, it wasn't booby trapped by the one you let live. Whoever is killed tries to kill you with the trap in revenge.

When you let Creighton live and kill Pate, Pate tries to kill you saying "This should leave a scar"
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If I missed them on my first time through Tseldora without noticing them, does that mean one of them killed the other and the event is forfeit for me? Because I later checked the room where they should be fighting and it's empty.
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Why the fuck do people hate on Pate again? He never actually does anything to you, and his 'betrayal' at the end is exactly what Creighton does.

He's a complete subversion on Patches. He may be shifty but he only ever helps you and gives you advice.
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>>246390098
You mean the same chest Pate directs you to?
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>>246390371

What makes you think it makes you keep your sanity? Look at all the hollows, they're just as retarded as before.
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>>246390413
He only does that to win your trust so he could more easily stab you in the back.
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>>246390396
That's Creighton saying that, retard.
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>>246390396

>The guy who just died says something

No seriously

Are you actually retarded?
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>>246390412

It might. Are you sure you exhausted both of their dialogues before for them to actually show up?
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>>246390307
Shit is deep, I never even thought about connecting that boulder to Cale.
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>>246390483
>He only does that to win your trust so he could more easily stab you in the back.
Which he never does

>but muh chest
The same chest Creighton directs you too. He even says the same line.

They're both assholes, but Pate actually helps you out the whole time, where Creighton says he was about to kill you both times you speak to him.
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>>246384215
Creighton is my man.

Pates a slick talking mongrel and needs to die.
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>>246390194
Well, (not the same guy) he could be laughing because he sees you fell for the same trap Pate was victim to himself, thus starting their rivalry. Deepest Lore
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>>246390586
So Creighton is up front about him wanting to kill you and Pate is a sneaky asshole trying to trick you into it. Why does that make him better?
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>>246390413
He tries to get a murderer to kill you in his place.

Theres a reason he gives you his armor.
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>>246384215

Creighton of the House Baratheon
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>>246390396
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>>246390732
Because at least he offers to help you throughout your journey. He even warns you about trusting him too much.
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>>246390491

Go replay that part, when you kill Pate it's him saying it.

Otherwise explain why Creighton would act nice afterwards and even give me his armor set.
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>>246389394
>oi m8 there's a ring in there or something watch the traps and hope ya find it! :^)
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>>246390838
see
>>246390771
Are you seriously this dumb? It was CREIGHTON saying it, they both say the same line.
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>>246390808
If someone is planning on killing me, I'd want to take care of them as fast as possible rather than give them the opening to work their sociopathomancy on me
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>>246390760
Does Creighton attack you if you talk to him wearing the pate set?
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>turns out there both just out for treasure

That fucking easy.
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>>246390307
1) There is no indication that Cale rolls that boulder. An undead soldier dies as the boulder starts rolling, and as we know they're not that bright in this one.

2) He tells you not to go in the basement as there is something in there that will kill you.

Do you even pay attention?
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>>246390961
He never tries to kill you himself. He'll just offer you situations for you to get yourself killed.

If you just ignore him and leave you'll be fine.
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>>246390965
Havent tried. Its pates dialogue that gives it away in the windmill.
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>>246391050
And Creighton will just be like, "fuck off I'll kill you" which is a lot more trustworthy than "hey bruv, I'm your friend right? :^)"
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>>246390371
And for some raisin only a part of Lucatiels face is hollowed, which makes no god damn sense whatsoever.

Its like they didn't even think anything through and just slapped shit together that they thought was cool.
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>>246391128
I'm giving that a try on my next play through
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>>246391163
>yeah mate we're best friends, thanks for helping me kill Pate
>o btw you can have my chest, its totally not boobytrapped :3c

Creighton is even worse than Pate.
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>tfw there are no good feels npcs in ds2
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>>246391032
Why do hollows or other monsters ignore NPCs?
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Creighton is using a very unique weapon that is not his at all, it belongs to another, entirely diffrent, actually named person.

if he murdered said person? who knows.
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>pate gives you shit and helps you out
>is smart, doesn't want to wander into traps but warns the player about them

pate did nothing wrong
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>>246391234
You can tell Creighton ain't right when you find him muttering to himself in Shaded Ruins, but Pate keeps up his long con rather well and does the exact same thing you just said, making him the bigger of dicks.
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>>246391183
This is what happens when you put your b team in charge while anyone who was worth a damn went to work on project beast
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>>246391247

Benhart is happy in his ignorance.

I'd like to know how he was able to enter the Giant's memory though, and why his questline ends there. Like what the fuck is he doing sitting in a giant's memory?
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>>246391247
Gavlaan wheels, deals and feels
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>>246391191
If it does work that would really be impressive. I mean if you have pates ring equipped he says something but I cant remember all the things you need to do.
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>>246391247
>Father blacksmith can't remember rock collector daughter
>Rock collector daughter can't remember father blacksmith
>They just sit there in Majula, never interacting.

That shit's fucking hella sad.
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>>246391317
except that little thing with the bomb and whatnot
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>>246391369
Youre all on the same adventure. In a different time/dimension.

He made it to the throne of want. Vengarl also fought the ancient dragon for whatever reason.
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>>246391421

The blacksmith remembers her and is happy she's finally somewhere he can keep an eye on her. I'm pretty sure.
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>>246391421
Doesn't the blacksmith have a line about his daughter coming back?

Pretty sure he said it once
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>>246391369
He just bumbled in there like everything else in his life, the man'll believe a big sword painted blue is magical after all. Probably got really drunk and ended up there.
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>>246391450
he probably didn't know

creighton gives it to you too
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>>246391515
>>246391526
He remembers her but seems too obsessed with his work to talk to her.

>>246391506
This is what I got out of it. Benhart had was the MC of his own universe and was keeping pace with you.
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>>246391614
So they have the same key to the same shit, they're both cocklords and were in cahoots before Pate tried to nigger Creighton with a gate setting off his homicidal rage tendency.
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>>246391421

Lenigrast recognizes Chloanne, she doesn't recognize him though, she just refers to him as "that hollow" and is worried about how he is looking at her.
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>>246391614
They worked together. That was theyre old bolt hole as creighton puts it or pied de terre work house as pate puts it.

They are both jsut greedy treasure hunters. Undead be damned.
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>>246391552
to be fair, his sword looks exactly like the Moonlight Great sword, its just fatter.

infact, his sword probably goes on to become the King's Field Moonlight Great Sword, if Dark souls really is a prequel to King's Field 4 like all the hints suggest.

in that game you take the sword, which is quite ordinary and weak, and you find a room in an ancient castle that is very hard to get into (takes like 9 dragon eyes) and you thrust the blade into the heart of holy magic and when you pull it out it truly becomes everything it was supposed to be, completely through chance.

so Benhart IS right, just not right now
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>>246391729
>my m8 p8 tricked me with a g8
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>>246391552
Now I'm imagining Benhart wandering into the courtyard of the Ancient Dragon, and the dragon saying "uh... hm. I guess here's this. not sure why you're here, but whatever." and hands him an ashen mist heart, and Benhart absentmindedly wanders off and straight into the memory of a giant.
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>>246391698

I didn't get that vibe from him. Although he seems very serious about settling down and work, it seemed moreso that he enjoyed that lifestyle because it enabled him to stay close to things that mattered most to him, like his daughter. She was probably the whole reason he came to Dangleic.

They probably don't talk, because she doesn't know who he is. But I think just keeping her in his sight is good enough for him, and in the end that makes it a warm albeit bittersweet ending.
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>>246391506

They actually BOTH are at the Throne of Want.
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>>246391287
Because they didn't think it through. In any other From game like this, a la Kings Field or Shadow Tower every NPC is in a safe area where enemies don't spawn. Or in the case of Dark Souls they're locked up like Logan or they're hiding/have killed some like Onion Knight whose name I conveniently forgot. Who I might add eventually does get attacked.

But for this one they just didn't think it through. I'm 100% positive they just added shit because they felt like it, and not because they had a plan.

Gavlaan and the sorcery merchant in No-Mans Wharf are completely surrounded by monsters. Gavlaan is even in the same room as two. I've never seen anything like that and I've played just about every From RPG there is.
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>>246391921
I want whatever Benhart is drinking if he was able to contend with those mace Drakekeepers while blackout drunk, holy shit.
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>>246391949
Yeah. I guess it wasnt implied.
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Okay faggots

Is that actually Ornstein at the Cathedral?
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>>246390731
I just had this thought as well, maybe the trap was set by one of them to kill the other. Whoever trapped it, Pate/Creighton's comments might just be snide remarks about your greed for actually looting the chests.
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>>246391979
Nah, it was really obnoxious in DaS1. There were several instances where monsters just ignored NPCs who stood there.

In DeS, that shit didn't happen.
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>>246391390
And is nowhere near as interesting or charming as Seigmeyer.
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>>246389081
If you kill Pate you get a free set of Creighton's armor with Creighton's gratitude for helping him out.
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>>246391183
I figured that was just to show that she's pretty far into the hollowing process. We see some others that are losing their minds, but it's possible that it hasn't happened through repeated deaths, while that's almost certainly the case for Lucatiel.
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>>246392058

No nigga. You killed Ornstein already.
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>>246392058
His corpse, reanimated with hexes.
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>>246391698
She doesn't remember him at all. If he went up to her and started talking to her it would probably freak her the fuck out.
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>>246391862

what are the other hints that it's a prequel to KF4?
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>>246391287
>>246391979
Gavlaan is actually an friendly enemy.

Sorcery merchant is out on the edge of a dock far away from enemies meditating.

The boss souls sorcerer in the bastille is the best example, but even he can be explained if you want.
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>>246392117
But the blacksmith just sits in Majula undead all day erry day.

Its like a Wookie on Endor, it don't make no sense.
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>>246391698
Hollows become obsessed with something. He realizes his daughter is there, but he can't tear himself from his work because he's hollowed.
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>>246392195
>the people that resurrected him are the B-Team
>Ok guys if we're gonna make Lordran2 good we need to take notes from Lordran1, so we're just gonna ressurrect Ornstein and make him fight
That's why he sucks compared to the first one, they did a shit job and his body was falling apart at the joints
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What keeps the main character from hollowing completely?

Is there a canonical reason that you can die 10,000 times, and still maintain your grip on sanity, or at least have enough presence of mind to remember your goals and relationships with NPCs?

Or is it that were the story out of the players hands, the main character wouldn't ever die?
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>>246392257
But Gavlaan is a human. He comes from a nomadic tribe. His people have just gone hollow.
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>>246384215

Both of them are murdererous bastards. Creighton seems to be the more straight forward psychopath towards his enemies while Pate is more a trickster.

It would make sense for them to have teamed up at some point for mutual profit. Pate could trick victims into some trap or bad situation and any who survived Creighton could straight up murder. They may even have both disguised themselves as Mirrah Footsoldiers which might explain why both routes give you the set since both would have a chance to have such a set in their possession.

Obviously they have a disagreement, Pate tries to backstab his good old murder buddy. Pate fails but escapes successfully, long enough passes that he feels confident enough to ditch his Mirrah disguise. But Cale spots him, perhaps and tells you and you know the rest.
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>>246392209
Nashandra in general, she is quite clearly the Dark One of the Abyss and her design was based directly off the Idol that Stares into the Dark from King's Field 4.

and the entire plot is about how the Dark one, long long ago, tricked the civilizations into opening up the Abyss (which the dark one both made, and is made of) and it consumed that civilization, and every civilization that is built over top of it, like a layer cake, too get consumed in it.

eventually this is focalized into a single object, the Idol that Stares into the Dark, any nation that holds it will just sink right into the Abyss, and the Idol always finds its way somewhere else, MOST of the world is destroyed by the time of the game.

your player character is given the idol by a stranger and you head to the Ancient City to return it.

Dark Souls 2 basically took this idea and fleshed it out, it is essentially the backstory to King's Field 4.
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>>246392457

You're the chosen undead.
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>>246392125

Or did we? You do realize most of Anor Londo was an illusion, including Gwynevere, and that the Old Dragonslayer is not only using all of Ornstein's gear but is also seemingly hollowed and disheveled and using dark magic rather than lightning just like Artorias was after traversing the Abyss? How do we know the real Ornstein didn't follow him? Also note that when you kill Ornstein first in the O&S battle, Smough has absolutely no hesitation before smashing Ornstein with the hammer. Don't you think he would have had at least a LITTLE remorse or sign of grief after his one remaining friend and partner is killed in front of him? Seems a little suspicious.
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>>246392457
In Dark1 its the dark sign, I don't recall if its in Dark2 as I never had the urge to really go through my inventory as everything I picked up was damn near worthless.
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>>246391979
Don't forget Straid and his bullshit room.
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>>246392457
the MC hollows when the player gives up on the game!
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>>246392457
One goes Hollow when they finally lose all purpose (see the Crestfallen Warrior in DaS1), it doesn't matter how many times you die or how many souls you lose.
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>>246392472
I thought the Gyrm were the Drangleic equivalent of dwarves, not humans.
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>>246392587
They weren't friends. At best they had some respect for each other's strength.
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>>246392560

so is the dark one a reference to the protag of DaS or the pygmy or Manus or anything like that?
(that being possibly the first event that opened the abyss)
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>>246392457
The player character never hollows because you are continuing to play as them. As long as you keep playing, they have the hope necessary to remain human.
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>>246387894
His armor suggests he killed someone for it.
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>>246392587

Smough was a psychopath who ground up the bones of his enemies for delicious powder. No indication that they were friends either.
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>>246392560
Both Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are a sort of continuation of Kings Field. Its been a while since I've played them, but I believe Shadow Tower and Eternal Ring connect to the Abyss as well.
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>>246392058
>>246392195
>>246392125
Actually hes another nameless hero that thought the old dragonslayer had some awesome shit and then decided to post up for the cathedral of blue as a guard because he thought it was an awesome gig. The real question is he hollowed? He guards the sentinels so I cant say for sure.

What if he isnt hollowed does that mean hes in his own world like every other npc? When you kill him are you just severing the bond like in DaS1?

Time and space are convoluted between npcs so no one really knows.
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>>246392829
No it doesn't, it suggests it's a good fake
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>>246392758

I guess that can be one way to look at it, but if you kill Smough first, Ornstein's reaction is quite different. Some people attribute this to Smough's supposed resentment of Ornstein, but that can be seen as pure conjecture that is based solely on that one four second scene in the middle of the fight. He doesn't even think about smashing him for a second. He just immediately does it.
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>>246392843
more like prequels, by the time of King's field the world is fucking over son.

and the Shadow Tower games are set in some weird sort of "modern times" complete with guns and everything, you just find your way into some hellish dimensional leftovers.

>>246392776
the Dark One is Nashandra, quite clearly, due to her design being heavily taken from the Idol that Stares.
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>>246392943
Right right, my bad. Haven't played it awhile.
Game got kinda boring to be honest.
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>>246392445

Uh, no?

He sucks because he's OLD

OLD Dragonslayer, dumpass
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>>246392620
>>246392782

This. Over and over it is explained that an undead goes hollow when they lose all hope. So long as you keep playing, you effectively never go hollow.
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>>246392587
O&S being an illusion in Dark Souls makes sense for when either one transform when the other is killed.

>>246392663
Did you even read their armor or weapons? Also, they're the same size as humans. So either humans are dwarves too, or they're a nomadic tribe of humans. Either way they're more than likely the same race as the player character.
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>Bernhart's "Fake" Moonlight Great Sword becomes the "real" MGS during the gameplay time of King's Field 4.

>the prophecy that a real man would "unleash its potential" was completely true, just not what you'd expect

>you forcibly turn it from an ordinary sword into a holy weapon.
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>>246392991
Smough was a savage and a cannibal. Why wouldn't he leap at the chance for more power, especially when his life is in danger?

Ornstein, on the other hand, was one of Gwyn's four knights, so he'd show some respect to his fallen comrade no matter how much he actually hated him.
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>>246393026
>the Dark One is Nashandra, quite clearly, due to her design being heavily taken from the Idol that Stares.

Well yeah but could it be that the pygmy (having been there at the initial creation of the world as it is) or the protag of DaS1 are the original people that allowed the abyss to spill out.
Nashandra could just be someone that appeared later as a champion of the abyss.
Even Manus seems like an earlier entity than Nashandra.
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>>246393159
It says that they were a nomadic tribe banished by humans. It's why they attack you, because they hate regular joes like you.
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>>246392369
He has passion for his work
and concern for his daughter
that keeps him sane
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>>246393275
>>246393026
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>>246393026
I didn't mean continuation as a sequel, just the central idea of the Abyss swallowing a kingdom.

And I'm pretty sure Shadow Tower is connect to Kings Field and Dark Souls. Or at least the second one is. Because you are for a fact traversing the Abyss. It also shares the idea of fragmented time a la Dark Souls.
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>>246392832

True, there is that aspect of Smough's personality, and again the frequent theory that he resented Ornstein. Personally I don't see how Ornstein being "resurrected" would make any sense, or how someone would manage to get his armor if it actually is smashed to pieces like the first game would suggest, so I feel like the heavily worn equipment the old Dragonslayer bears as well as the obvious indications that he is corrupted by the Abyss in much the same manner as Artorias all imply that he is most likely the real Ornstein and the one in Londo was not.
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>Artorias traverses the Abyss
>goes crazy

>MC joins the Pilgrims of Dark, traverses the Abyss 3 times
>Still fine

??????
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>>246393092
>dumpass
>dump
Come on now.
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>>246393343
Or it could just be that they're hollow.

>>246393392
But he's sitting there undead all day erry day. While half of Lucatiel's face is going undead. Shit makes no god damn sense is all I'm saiyan.
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>>246393480

there might be two sets of the armor

easily explained

or, more likely... toejam and earl were an illusion
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>>246393575
This has been explained.
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>>246384215
Pate is the 'real' Creighton.
The Creighton in your picture is just some dude that has the same name.

It doesn't really matter though, since one is a dick and the other is insane.
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>>246393430
Is her plan to turn everything into the abyss (through the Throne of Want)?
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>>246393637
Lucatiel is slowly going hollow because she's losing her memories dying all the time.
The blacksmith is just old as fuck sitting in Majula getting dem souls for blacksmithin.
>>
>>246393665
Can you explain again?
>>
>>246393575

You left out the part where Artorias attempted to fight and was defeated by MANUS, THE FATHER OF THE ABYSS.
>>
>>246393275
Nashandra/Manus/Pygmy are essentially the same being, and seperate beings at the same time.

they are the Dark Soul, the smallest shard of the Lord Soul turned black, which spawned Humanity.

this also spawns the Abyss, which is the most prevelant running theme in the Souls/King's Field series, that of an Entropic evil (sort of) Semi-Conscience being and force, being both a singular entity and a high-mind-esque force at the same time.

this is true in every game the Abyss is in (which is every game except Demon's Souls) there is always an Abyss and a Pseudo-Being that spawns it.

Manus, Nashandra, and The Dark One (and presumably, but not seen, the Pygmy) all serve the same function, to be the final entropic end of everything, if there is one running theme in every game in this series, is that of the forces of good despately fighting, but ultimately simply buying more time for the next hero, to stave off the Abyss, the unbeatable, always looming threat, for all time until a hero fails.
>>
>>246393575
Artorias traversed the abyss to challenge Manus itself who is pretty much the final boss of the abyss. In DaS 2 you're simply taking a vacation into the abyss and sort of "mastering" it, plus you have a very experienced old geezer who is like a modern day Darkwraith who acts as your guide/mentor while Artorias just YOLO'd his way in with no help. On top of that the player character in DaS 1 is able to enter Manus' abyss area untouched even without the ring from Sif.
>>
>>246393820
>he didn't read the item descriptions
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>>246393701
yes, that is her plan, to snuff out the Light and let the Abyss become all that is.

infact, that is the plan of every single "villian" in the Souls/King's field series, see my post above this one.
>>
>>246393637

He's just that focused. Hollowing happens when you start to forget your purpose and start to lose hope. On top of that, he doesn't really seem to care one way or another what happens, and buries himself in his work, so it's possible that he really doesn't know or care about the world around him. The job is all that matters.
>>
>>246390586
>>246391163
>>246391234
Crieghton is on edge that Pate is gonna sneak up on him and off him.
He laughs when you fall for Pates booby trapped chest because he's an asshole.
>>
>>246393701
Shanalotte says using the throne is linking the fire, so no, it seems she tries to wreck your shit before you can link it.
>>
>>246393701
I'd imagine that's exactly it.

As the protagonist, you simply seem to cook like Gwyn and possibly many other monarchs did in the past. But Nashandra, being a being of the Abyss and Darkness, obviously something would be significantly different in the event that she could somehow enter it.

It's very possible that it's literally impossible to enter without fulfilling some form of requirement, and she even tried to enter in the past to no avail. So she would guide you down there in the hopes that you could open the way for her and allow her in, but you snuff her out before she gets her chance.
>>
>>246386507
Made me laugh like a little bitch/10
>>
>>246393858

Okay. Thanks for explaining that.
>>
>>246394003
By why does she want the Want then?
>>
>>246385402
There is absolutely no difference at all. No matter what.

They literally both set you up and say the exact same thing afterward no matter what.

The whole story arc between the two is a complete waste of time.
>>
>>246384215
Does melentia sell me his axe if I kill him? I want to duel wield them and I don't want to waste a bonfire ascetic if I can just get it that way
>>
>>246393858
>implying the Abyss/Dark is evil

f*cking sheep
>>
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>>246394000
>He laughs when you fall for Pates booby trapped chest because he's an asshole.
Pretty much this. Creighton's a crass fellow. He's also violent and a little bit mad. He thinks it's funny that you almost got your ass blown up because he's a dick.

That said, he's no fucking Pate. Pate needed to die.
>>
>>246393870
CU was pretty badass considering he killed old Gods, dragons, high ranking knights, and Manus himself.
>>
>>246394137
Because no Flame means lots of Dark. Remember the good ending from DaS1 was you walking away from the flame
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>>246393665
Artorias isn't human. Elizabeth explains Artorias was vulnerable to the dark, moreso than humans because "there was nary a trace of dark in him".

And you, who has the Dark souls, has quite a bit of resistance to the Dark, giving you a huge advantage. Likely just being in the Abyss was killing Artorias.
>>
>>246384215
Pate is the fake Creighton and Creighton is the real deal, and the Real Creighton is Pissed that some asshole stole his identity and is framing him for murders, the Ring of Thorns was his ring, after all, and Pate took it to identify as Creighton, a man 'without a face'
>>
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>Talk to character.
>Their lips don't even move.
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>>246386507
>>
>you can't get notOrnstein's armor
What the fuck, From. Getting the set would have answered questions about him.
>>
>>246394241
What did Pate do to deserve death?
>>
>>246394308
What is Artorius then?
>>
>>246394330

Same laziness expressed through all the Soul's games.
>>
>>246394232
well, no and yes, as EVERY game has shown us, it simply ends everything there is, its Entropy given a mind.

is Entropy evil? no, but it isn't good, and it isn't good for anything, especially out of control, the Abyss is the all consuming end of it, and "It" is everything.

unless your some doomsday cult, or some feelgood dark-hippie like the old-fuck in the chair, embracing the Dark is insane
>>
>>246394175
Its not a waste of time, its how fucking morals work. They hate each other and are so alike.
>>
>>246394424
Fucked with Creighton.
>>
>>246394439
A giant like Gough
>>
>>246394403
Which is exactly why we can't. Just wait until the notOolacile dlc where we can fight the other 3 notKnights
>>
>>246394439
Never explained. Probably the same race as Gwyn and his silver knights.
>>
>>246394241
I helped Pate because I liked his voice actor
>>
>>246392587
But we get the guy's soul. How can we get his soul if we only killed an illusion?
>>
>>246394439
whatever Demi-God race that makes up most of Lodran, they outright refer to you as "human" implying they are not.
>>
>>246394424

He's a meanie head.
>>
>>246394439
They're all giants. Even the grill, despite being small, she was technically one of the Giants as well
>>
>>246394559
Most of Gwyn's kingdom at least
>>
>>246394532
I thought you got their fragment of Gwyn's soul when killed in Anor Londo. In Heide, however, you get the Dragonslayer's actual soul.
>>
>>246394514

Gough is kawaii as fuck, biggest bro ever.
>>
>>246394617
giants are separate, they are "the gods" (not actual all powerful gods, but more like Thor "Gods")
>>
>>246394439
A God. all of the large humanoids in the Souls series are "Gods." As in, a larger, more powerful race than humans. Did you notice that Anor Londo is too big for the Chosen Undead? That's not shitty art direction. It was built for the God race, not man.
>>
>>246394453
DS1 Blacksmith
>>
>>246393480
Havel's knights all had his ring, and preumably his armor, who's to say Ornstein's squad didn't match
>>
>>246394701
must of sucked to be gwyndolin and the firekeeper then
>>
>>246394646
You get an "old dragonslayer's" soul, Ornstein had a whole squad of guys who specialized in dragonslaying like he did, he was just top dog
>>
>>246394516
Come to think about it, you can't get some of the boss armors in game
>>
>one man takes out every major player including all their fabled knights (sans QTassasin and BigBroGough)

jesus fuck, its really quite astounding, its some straight up "TONY STARK BUILT THAT IN A CAVE" shit.
>>
>>246394880
>theyre will never be bed of chaos armor dlc
>>
>>246394884
>not taking out the QTassasin so you can masquerade as her through a NG+
>>
>>246394884
Well thats just becayse you can just keep coming back to try to kill them even if you die.
>>
>>246394852
But you can use that soul to make his spear. The spear's lightning elemental, not dark like when you fight him. That seems to imply that it's the original Ornstein, unless you're saying every member of his squad, if he even had one, had a boss-level soul from which you could make unique weaponry.
>>
>>246394773
Because Ornstein was never stated to have a squad.
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>>246394823
Gwyndolin probably has an easy time because he floats about with his magic. He was a very small person, but that's what happens when you are raised with an effeminate pattern of living when you are a magical being.

The firekeepers more than likely had a rough time wandering, but they were almost assuredly pampered due to their incredible usefulness in society, so I could see them getting carried about on chariots, palanquins, or simply by the other "gods" of Anor Londo.
>>
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Fire God Flann = Old Iron King
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>>246394884

Most of them are hollow and at a fraction of their potential strength. Prime Gwyn or Artorias would probably wrekt everyone with just a stare.
>>
>>246394698

Wait a minute, HOLD UP.

If people like Artorias, Gwyn, Havel, etc are part of this separate human race, how come Gwyn and Havel got cursed? They don't have any of the Dark Soul in them.
>>
>>246392114
so If I kill pate in giants, and then find creighton in the woods, he will give me the armor, or will this only trigger from the brightstone cove encounter?
>>
>>246395000
Ornstein fled following Gwynevere and the rest of the residents of Anor Londo to find a new home.
He hollowed and the rest of Heide fell and bam, Dark Souls II comes along.
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>>246394463
To the point they both give you the same key and then say the exact same fucking dialogue when you open the rigged chest? The exact same dialogue, word for word?

Not to mention you can get all their stuff in one playthrough (actually multiple copies of Pate's) so there's literally no reason at all to chose one over the other?

That's just shit-tier design, bro.
>>
>>246394884

WITH A BOX OF TITANITES
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>>246395106

they used their soul to keep the flame going or something like that so it burnt out
they weren't technically hollow in the same sense the normal humans were
>>
>>246394884
The hero comes generally hundreds or thousands of years after their kingdom has fallen to ruin, most of them are essentially mindless Zombies compared to their most powerful forms, and you have been absorbing the souls of countless undead, demons, and other monsters over the course of the game, and they are STILL extremely powerful and can kill you in a few strikes even with the best armors you can muster.

I can imagine fighting Gwyn or Artorias at their peak strength would be literally impossible.
>>
>>246394617
What if Gwyn and Artorias and Ornstein and all that aren't actually giants, but just humans and you're also human but a different breed of human? Kinda like how there are 6 limbed dragons and 4 limbed dragons (wyverns).
>>
>>246395210
But would you do their story line at least once?
>>
>>246395250
Peak Artorias can probably turtlepoke with a greatsword and infinite stamina.
>>
>>246395372

That is what they essentially are, a different breed of human. Probably ones without any of the Dark Soul in them. Hell Manus was probably part of the "lord race" till he was corrupted by the abyss, which formed after the first flame.
>>
>>246395102
Which implies that each time a new chosen undead defeats his predecessor, the requirements are lowered since all he is facing is someone at a fraction of their former glory, who had beaten someone else who was at a fraction of their glory etc.
Eventually, the Abyss is gonna win because the requirements for kindling are lowered each generation.
>>
>>246395415
>Maddened zombie Artorias still somersaults with a greatsword one-handed with a broken arm
Can you imagine fighting that fucker with both of his arms, his body at full strength, and his mind fully-focused?
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>>246395507

I thought Manus was the pygmy.
>>
I like to imagine that the large humanoids are the way they are because important religious figures were painted as physically huge to denote their importance in medieval and renaissance art.

Who knows if that was their actual design inspiration, I just think it's a neat little parity.
>>
>>246394823
firekeeper is human though
>>
>>246395106
not hollowing.

Gwyn "hollowed" due to burning in the Oven, it drained him of everything, including his sanity, but has nothing to do with the curse itself.

you see, Gwyn and the other "godly" beings fear the abyss and the fire fading, because unlike us who can maybe shoulder through with the curse, they just outright fucking die.

he didn't fear being "replaced" by humanity, he feared extinction for his people, and he did, as King, what he could, and this is why I have a problem with calling him evil or selfish.

men who burn themselves alive for their subjects cannot be called selfish, its an oxymoron.
>>
>>246395507
>Hell Manus was probably part of the "lord race" till he was corrupted by the abyss

Manus is the pygmy, the pygmy was the first human
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>>246395138
only at brightstone
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>>246395570
>>
>>246395553
I'd imagine it's all cyclic as fuck and any souls that were fed back into the first flame get spat back out at the start of the next cycle.
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>>246395570
well he was the "Chosen" Hero and the greatest warrior of his age, so much so that they basically make fucking Link references to him, and his sword is essentially the fucking Masterword (THREE SEPARATE FUCKING VERSIONS!)
>>
>>246395653
Is he the human or is he the one who gave birth to humans? I don't remember him being referred to as human at all.
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>>246395570
artorias only has one arm?
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>>246394232
Let the Dark embrace you...
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>>246395809
The dark soul IS humanity, he claimed the dark soul from the first flame
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>>246395553
Well yes, that's precisely how it goes. Although the state of entropy over the endless pools of souls seems to actually keep itself level, considering it's not just human souls that are burned to stave off the dark, but also the dark itself in certain cases. The Humanity sprites that can be torched in Dark Souls 1 and various items in Dark Souls 2 show that the flames can indeed be grown much more powerful, and with the powerful flames, more souls populate the land.

However it's all essentially staving of the inevitable, considering the dark is an everpresent force, and the fire only serves to bring light to a world surrounded by the dark, both forces growing the potential of one another.

In King's Field 4, you're simply in yet another cycle of this, light being almost completely destroyed by the dark, but the hero standing forward, penetrating the dark, and FINALLY obliterating the source of it flooding into the world, ending the cycle once and for all.
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>>246395653

Yeah he took his piece of the flame and began spreading it to other humans. Manus probably is the Pygmy just because of how exceptionally powerful manus is.
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>>246395406
Well, yeah I did. That's why I'm annoyed. It's a waste of time to put any thought into your actions.

They made this whole questline with the illusion of depth to basically go "good job. here's a key to a box with some lackluster loot in it, enjoy."

You'd think choosing one or the other would give you some unique loot that you'd have to play through twice to get it all.
>>
>>246395553
Not necessarily. The successor has to gather souls and get more powerful than the incumbent. It could stay relatively even.

Feeble Cursed One does seem weaker than the Chosen Undead, though.
>>
>>246395809
Kaathe explains this, Pygmy/Manus spawned humanity.
>>246395810
his left arm is broken, hes essentially fighting you at like 33% strength, both the Abyss and hsi broken arm neuter him.

its the games way of saying "Full Power Artorias would win"
>>
Gwyn and "non-humans" vs Abyss vs Dragons

TRIPLE THREAT CAGE MATCH HELL IN A CELL
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>>246395570
Artorias lost to Manus though, and the Chosen Undead beat Manus.

CU>Manus>Prime Artorias
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>>246394646
no you get Ornstein or Smough's soul when you kill them second. It's what allows you to build their weapons. I'm starting to think that the first guy you kill is the illusion. That's why the body disappears into nothingness, and why it doesn't drop it's soul. If so, that would mean that canonically, the CU killed O first and grabbed Smough's soul.

Most likely it's just B team doing what it does best.
>>
>>246395918
its not a true cycle though.

because, terrifyingly, the "Hero" can fail, and if he fails, the world is over, its only a cycle so long as a hero wins in time.

by the time of King's Field 4, many many nations are simply gone, humanity is on its last vestiges, and the Abyss almost wins completely, and even though you "win" (as temporary as that always is) the damage is done, shit is fucking wrecked hard.

I mean the game points this out to you, in KF4, you COME from a destroyed nation to go to an ANCIENT Destroyed nation, built over top FIVE even more ancient destroyed nations.

its fucking OVER son.
>>
>>246396036
Abyss would win, it basically can't be stopped by anything until the cycle begins anew and the first flame springs back into life
>>
>>246395986

How on Earth died we manage to even touch Manus then, and don't say Artorias weakened him because we both know that us bullshit. Manus was in his element and probably took down Artorias in minutes,
>>
>>246395570

Check out the cover of the game and look really closely. It gets worse.

...Artorias is left handed.

He ninja flips and hits you with a greatsword not only one handed, but WITH HIS WEAK ARM.
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>>246396136
It's rock paper scissors. Manus only beat Artorias because of the Dark.
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>Never read much of anything about DaS lore
>Reading about Artorias, he seems cool as shit
>Get sad that you will never play a game detailing his life and exploits, hanging out with his badass wolf lifeparter

Feels real, real bad, man.
>>
>>246396147
the first one you kill doesnt drop its soul because the one left uses it to power up into super form and gain their abilites.

Did you even fucking pay attention to the fight at all?
>>
>>246396136
Artorias lost for 2 reasons given to us, that he was a purly "Light" entity means the Abyss is his nature counter, regardless of his protections against it (being one of only 2 beings to truly survive going in and out of it) and 2, because had to save his doggy.

Artorias is still, far and away, besides Gwyn in his prime, the strongest being presented to us in the series, Manus is more a force than a being.
>>
>>246396147

They could've easily designed a new fancy armor. I think they did it on purpose for the lore speculah.
>>
>>246396297
I'd play it.
>>
>>246396227
Maybe it has something to do with his broken pendant, or that the CU also has humanity.
>>
>>246395106
Wait, Havel wasn't human? I thought he was with the whole developing miracles and anti magic stuff? Even the occult club found near his armor suggest he wanted to kill gods.
>>
>>246396337

Artorias thrived in the Abyss till he fought Manus though, he did make a covenant with the creatures of the Abyss which I assume is the serpents who probably helped fuck him over for Manus. That is probably why you are needed by Kaathe in Dark Souls 1, because the pygmy/manus is out of the picture.
>>
>>246396212
I guess that's simply a sign of the incredible tenacity and unwillingness to fail that all of the heroes of each generation have. They are willing to slay thousands of hollows, dozens of demons, old kings, ancient lords, and even gods to simply start the cycle over, and hope for a better future where they can eventually purge the dark entirely, and live a hopeful and prosperous life in the future.

Thanks to the ending in KF4, you seem to successfully destroy the one thing which is constantly obliterating entire worlds over and over again, bathing the entire world in light.
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>>246396297
>Battling with your 3 other bros, including Gough pre-blindness, against everlasting dragons

Make it happen From
>>
>>246396227
Manus beat him because the Abyss counters the "Gods' and Artorias basically lost because he had to protect Sif.

his incredible loyalty to Sif ended him, this is why Sif guards his tomb for the rest of eternity, both due to his masters willingess to "die" to save her, and because Sif never wants anyone else to suffer the fate of Artorias.

>>246396297
he's by far the coolest "Chosen Hero" character I know of, simply because the game does such a good job PRESENTING him to be this amazingly skilled heroic character, without having to SAY it.

I mean the guy has an entire area dedicated to his grave, 3 swords, 2 shields (and his sword, full stats is the strongest weapon in the game) 2 boss fights (sort of) and everything else.

and unlike Gwyn we don't get to know all his exploits.
>>
>>246395608
Gwyndolin and his posse on the other hand are definitely selfish cunts. His faction goes through all the trouble of putting together the elaborate "chosen undead" ruse just so he doesn't have to burn like daddy did in order to save the world.
>>
>>246396297
Too bad he died when Sif was just a pup.
>>
>>246396607

Going into the Giants dream in Dark Souls 2 made me wish we fought in Drangelic during the war. A game fighting the giants with or as Vendrick would have kicked ass.
>>
>>246396524
I always took Havel as human as well, especially since his hollow is the same size as the CU.
>>
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>>246396245
>We were battling a fucking zombie swimming with a painful darkness that kept him alive in anger who was ninjaflipping about and slaughtering everything in his path who was fighting with his OFFHAND

I really wish we could see his horrific exploits at full power.
>>
So wait

You have to go back in time to ensure that you exist in the future where you go back in time to ensure that you exist
>>
>>246396697
Sif as a pup can fight.
>>
>tfw like DeS most but can't speculate connections to DaS because only small connection via Patches

What if Vallarfax, Biorr's brother, is Gwyn and Allant is really just Gwyn after shaving his beard and washing himself?
>>
So what do you think Vendrick stole from the giants?
>>
>>246396729
That dude in the tower wasn't Havel. It was one of his followers. The armor set you get in Anor Londo was Havel's genuine armor. The real Havel is somewhere completely different. The reason being is that the "Havel" in the tower wore a ring made to give Havel's followers strength to wear the insane armor and wield the massive weapons that Havel himself could already wield.
>>
>>246396830
Space and time in Dark souls is fucked up son, they aint gotta explain shit.
>>
>>246396929
He stuck his dick in some important Giant lady's facehole.
>>
>>246396869
Boleteria is a far-away continent in the Souls verse.
The continent map of Drangleic is shown in Demon Souls.
>>
>>246396330
yeah I played it. I'm just trying to think like the B team and make some shit up to justify Ornstein being in the 2nd game.
>>
>>246396672
if Gwyndolin burns no one would be there to set up the next cycle.

the entire process is to find someone capable of burning at all, who's to say Gwyndolin is even capable of doing it? he's not implied to be powerful in any shape.

the only Son that could is the First Born, and in all likelyhood he DOES end up burning if Solaire is him, as its very much hinted.

Gwyndolin isn't selfish so much as he is sneaky, due to his nature, I mean the man lives in eternal worship of his Father, instead of ruling outright as King of anything he sits near his fathers Tomb.

if Gwyndolin were truly selfish or evil, he'd be ruling Lordran, instead of being the only person even there at all.
>>
>>246391776
>F-fucking pigs. Keep your e-eyes off of me."
>Hollow men are so d-disgusting. I'd rather be with my stones."
>>
>>246396929
Something related to the golems, maybe the Lord Vessel, or some form of Giant Kingship
>>
>>246396869

>Yfw the Land of Giants Vendrick traveled to was the destroyed realm in the Nexus
>>
>>246396830
That's actually an accurate utilization of time-travel right there. If you go back in time to stop a horror and leave yourself a warning for the future as you progress, your past self will go back in time to do the same, assuring you exist, so on and so forth.
>>
>>246397028
the are not connected whatsoever, do not even try this.

mainly because Demons are entirely diffrent beings and are far more important in Demon's Souls.
>>
>>246396960
Oh right right. So Havel (a god) recruited humans as soldiers? I need to replay Dark Souls. Too bad GFWL continues to exist.
>>
>>246396245
Except that's not Artorias on the cover. The armour is wrong, the sword is wrong, and the shield is wrong. The only thing that matches is the colour of the cloth on the armour.

For that matter, it might be something entirely from outside of the game, considering the floating helmets (wut) you see around him are found nowhere in the game either.
>>
>>246397047
>stones
You mean rock dildos right?
>>
>>246396607
>Darksiders-style curazy game with 4 playable characters

>Artorias is a mix of offense and impenetrable defense, can call on abyss power in times of need but doing so corrupts him to the point of no return eventually ala BoF: Dragon Quarter, eventually gains the ability to call on Sif for some jolly cooperation

>Ornstein is all about finesse and speed, with lightning power for ranged attacks

>Gough is pure ranged with brute strength to back it up

>Ciaran is all about sneaky takedowns and lightning fast attacks, uses plenty of assassin's tools and gadgets to take down enemies
>>
>>246397107
no, stop.

>>246397064
the Lord Vessel is smashed in Majula.
>>
>>246396929
Some device, soul, or other object which allows one to be revered as a king to the giants. The only exceptions to this rule would be those who already see you for the horrific monster you are and despise humanity. The dozens of giants in the Throne of Want revere you after seeing you destroy a being of pure dark and possessing whatever was in the King's Ring, which I'm certain Nashandra wanted all along.
>>
Anyone noticed how the Giants have a similar face to the Old One, and both are tree like in nature? Giants turn into archtrees when they die, and the Old One resembles a giant tree on its side.
>>
>>246397045
He has good intentions (save the world!) but he's a cunt in the way he does it, forging legends and manipulating the player via Frampt and Gwynevere. Even if he can't link the flame himself, was all the backdoor bullshit really necessary? There are plenty of lunatics such as Solaire who would gladly sacrifice themselves without being lied to if they had known the truth.
>>
>>246397145
How are they different beings and more important? They seemed more intelligent and with more of a purpose in Demon's Souls, but how else were they different?
>>
>>246397216
You stop it right this instant. It's making my heart hurt knowing I'll never get to play this.
>>
>>
>>246392373
>>246391698
I'm sure that's just an excuse not to have to animate him moving around. You'll remember how FROM couldn't even be bothered to animate him walking from the door to the anvil when you first open his shop, so you have to reload the area or rest at a bonfire to de-spawn and then spawn him at the anvil.
>>
>>246397253
Those are just golems, not giants.
>>
>>246397171
um, yes, this is artorias, hence him being in the Guts Pose.

this is what his helmet looks like from the side
>>
>>246397165
He was a bishop after all. It wouldn't be too far off to see that he recruited a legion of extremely powerful knights to protect the faithful in the Way of White, and seeing as how they were fighting dragons and monsters and shit, it would only make sense to put godlike armor onto his most powerful warriors and leave them in opportune places.
>>
>>246397406
You clever motherfucker.
>>
>>246397253
The thing that makes the golems, those "giants" made of stone, move to form a bridge is the Giant's Kingship. To get that thing you need Asshen Mist Heart, and to get that, you need the King Ring.
>>
>>246397342
Demons are just wild beings born from the fires of Chaos in Dark Souls, nothing more or less.
>>
>>246397406
This cover (which is the only cover showing "Artorias" left-handing his sword by the way)
>>
>>246396672
>>246397045
It just goes to show: Never send a trap to do a man's job.
>>
>>246397171
The armor on the NA cover of DaS1 looks alot like the Alva's set from DaS2 from behind.

>>246396581
I just realized that the thing about Drangleic and cycles can actually make King's Field part of the Souls universe, considering the abyss plays a part in the later games.
>>
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>>246397354
>You will never fight a godly lord of a Souls game wearing full vestments and fighting in their own throne room
>You will only fight them wearing rags and tatters as they shamble about in some ruined crypt where only the dead lie
>>
>>246397354
Poor Vendrick, man. He doesn't even understand what happened to him.

Nashandra played him like a damned fiddle, and then he went hollow trying to cure the curse.

Then the Cursed one saunters in, smashes his balls, and takes his soul and crown.

The poor guy just wanted to help, and it got him hollowed at best, or obliterated and absorbed at worst.
>>
>>246397591
That's the chosen undead you dicksplash.
>>
>>246397513
Aren't he demons in Demon's Souls just wild beings born from the fog? They seem to be pretty much the same thing, with fire and fog being the only difference.
>>
>>246397591
thats Armor they put into Dark Souls 2, why its on the cover of dark Souls 1 is a mystery.

maybe Alva's Armor was ment to be in Dark Souls 1 and was cut?

but its clearly Alva's Armor, that much is obvious now, in hindsight.
>>
>>246397045
>Soilaire
>first born
Nope. Read the canon material. Andre was once supposed to be the first born, but that point has been since scrapped. There is no first born in the final game.
>>
>>246397253
No, no, no. Whatever Vendrick stole gave him the ability to create the Golems, the creatures in the Throne of Want. He probably stole something that had the ability to manipulate souls, since the Golems in Drangleic castle are inert until they're fed the souls of your slain enemies, which they use to carry out certain tasks and operate mechanisms.
>>
>>246394175
>They literally both set you up and say the exact same thing afterward no matter what.
Which made no sense with Creighton. He is a murderer, blunt in his ways. If he wants you dead, he attacks you, he doesn't try and trick people, the one time he attempted not just attacking ended with him trapped first, so he defaults back to hunt and kill.

Yet he set up an elaborate trap and hid and watched me? Pate gives up if he fails he sets another trap, crei would just attack.

It was fucking lazy,
>>
>>246397673
Vendrick knew what was going on and used his last days to stop Nashandra from getting to the Throne of Want, at least until you come along and fuck everything up.
>>
>>246396245
>>246397171
I always chuckle a bit when I see people saying that Artorias was left handed. IF the cover is Artorais, then it would make him ambi. I'll elaborate, if the cover shows his left hand as his dominant (he wields his sword in the dominant, shield in the other, that type of deal) then that would make his right hand his off hand, but in-game, his left arm is broken and he broke it by shielding sif, meaning he would be using his shield in his left and wielding his sword in his right..... Again, this assumes that the cover character is Artorias
>>
>>246397654
>You will only fight them wearing rags and tatters as they shamble about in some ruined crypt where only the dead lie
>they can still slap your shit
>>
>>246397715
What if the CU was Alva?
>>
>>246397673

>He doesn't even understand what happened to him.

Yes he does, he let himself go hollow to stop Nashandra's plans
>>
>>246397808
You can't seriously expect consistency in storytelling from From fucking Software. Please tell me you're joking.
>>
>>246397654
There needs to be a Souls game with a mechanic like Dragon's Dogma, where on NG+ the king or whoever is your character from the last playthrough.
>>
>>246397673
Vendrick actually knew everything, and the entire games setting was his plot to slow Nashandra down.

you apparantly missed all the blocks he put in place to stop her, I don't know how since you FOUGHT all the people he blocked the path with.

not to mention the King's Ring and the Ashen Mist Heart, 2 other intentional stop-gaps to keep nashandra at bay.

Vendrick is actually a clever man, he couldn't win, so he simply refused Nashandra's ability to play the game at all.

hence the Ring being past the Milfanito, beings who sing and make the fireflies "dance" which causes beings such as Nashandra (and others) to be rendered comatose.
>>
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>>246386507
>>
>>246397753
I just realised, there were countless golems in the room Vendrick was wandering around in. I wonder what he was planning to do with an army of golems?
>>
>>246396869

Demon's Souls was the most well put together game in terms of lore

It doesn't need all the fan wank theories
>>
>>246397654
The closest we'll ever get is Old King Allant. He was cool, but he doesn't really stack up to the Lords.
>>
>>246397774
He didn't set the chest trap, pate did.
He's just laughing that you fell for it because he's a douche.
>>
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>>246396697
>just realized sif spent his entire life at Atorias' grave waiting for him to come back despite only knowing him as a puppy
>hundreds of years alone in darkroot just waiting there for his master to come back
>>
>>246397936
I don't, not even a little, but sometimes it's fun to indulge in it
>>
>>246397045
I'm tired of you dumb fucks and your
>hurr durr Solaire is the firstborn

There is absolutely nothing in the entire game that even remotely hints it. You just want to believe it because you have an unhealthy obsession with Solaire. The firstborn left with Gwynevere long before Gwyn even goes into the chamber.

Solaire isn't the firstborn. He just worships the firstborn. You idiot.
>>
>>246397989

Damn dude why do people say DS2 has no lore?

I just think most people haven't really thought about everything yet
>>
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>>246397974
>Fighting my old Dual-Cestus+10 CU with Vanquisher's Seal
>Dueling my old Dual-Ricards CU with one other rapiers
>>
>>246398162
> The firstborn left with Gwynevere
Who's pulling shit out of their ass now
>>
>>246398029
Probably kill the shit out of Nashandra, or at the very least protect the power to use them to the very end.
>>
>>246398153
>Sif's master sacrifices himself to save her
>CU frees her from the abyss as a pup
>She spends her life guarding his grave
>CU, the only other being she could call a friend, shows up at his grave
>She knows he wants to traverse the dark and fights him to stop him and save him
>She just wanted to save you from Artorias' fate
>And she dies knowing she failed
>>
Dragon God vs. Ancient Dragon. Who would win?
>>
>>246398541
>she
>>
>>246398169
I don't think anyone says that Dark2 has no lore, at least no one with half a brain.

Its just that the lore is far worse and not nearly as well thought out. Aside from Vendrick's plan none of it really makes sense or correlates with the previous game even though it tries to. Its also not interesting and completely forgettable.
>>
>>246398608
Sif is a womens name.
>>
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>>246398153
No no, he knew Artorias was already dead, which is what made it sadder.

>Spent hundreds of years at the foot of his master's own grave, protecting his master's massive sword, even learning how to use it and mastering a technique using the fucking mouth
>Innumerable bandits, thieves, and other dangerous miscreants entering the forest with the intent to steal the covenant and/or the sword
>Living every single day with a singular purpose: Kill anybody who comes to steal master's most prized possessions and desecrate his grave
>Suddenly the CU, the only one who already saved Sif and even allowed his master to fully pass, comes to the grave, intent on doing exactly what he has spent centuries trying to prevent
>Sif needs to kill him out of a knowledge that he cannot willingly allow any of this to happen, as (s)he has seen the dark and desperately doesn't want you to fall to the same fate as Artorias
>Will fight literally to the death to make sure this doesn't happen
>>
Vendrick was a true hero

He was a real patriot
>>
>>246397297

A thing to note is that the main witch in DaS1 was giant (seen in intro as larger than the regular witches/her daughters) and she turned into a tree/root like being you fight in lost izalith
>>
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>>246398557
dragon god
>>
>>246397047

>Openly flirts with MC on her opening line, every single fucking time.

Chloanne or Rosabeth?
>>
>>246398649
Vendrick was a dipshit who got tricked by some skank ass ho.
>>
>>246398541
Sif also knows perfectly well that the CU can walk the Abyss no problem and withstand its influence. Heck, she helped you kill Manus FATHER OF THE FUCKING ABYSS.

And then she goes full retard and decides to fight you anyway.

Sif is a dumb mutt.
>>
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>>246398608
>>246398639
What a bitch.
>>
>>246398557
Dragon God. It's actually a Dragon. Ancient Dragon is just some mockery, and the only proper Ancient Dragon in DaS1 decides he wants to sit on his ass and not give a fuck about anything ever.
>>
>>246396607
>>Battling with your 3 other bros, including Gough pre-blindness, against everlasting dragons

In a battle of the bands.

>Ornstein on electric guitar

>Gough on drums

>Ciaran on keyboard

>Artorias howlin the vocals with Sif

>Friggin' Gywn on bass

Name the band, /v/
>>
>>246398765
>Black Phantoms in my thread
>>
>>246398831
The Shockwaves
>>
>>246398739
Lucy. I want to dick the hollow out of her.
>>
>>246398893

How come I never get summoned

Do I have to be in NG+?
>>
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>>246398646
>helps you kill MANUS, FATHER OF THE ABYSS as a puppy
>this potentially occurs (chronologically) before you beat the game
>is now a stronger and more skilled adult, sees you now stronger, more skilled and geared to boot
>decides to commit suicide instead of helping you fight relatively minor abyss villains? (four kings)
>deepest lore
>deepest lore
>>
>>246398557
Dragon God from Demon's Souls? Dragon God easily. That motherfuckers head is about the same size as the ancient dragon. Plus he's a real god damned dragon, and a god.
>>
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>>246398831
>Name the band, /v/
Gwyn, Lord of Shredding and the Knights of Rock. Speaking of rock, can we get Havel in on this shit too?
>>
Why does everyone hate VaatiVidya?
>>
>>246398958
Sif Forgot or some shit
I dunno
>>
>>246398958
>bro-op with giant Sif for the rest of the game

I can dig it.
>>
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>>246396297
I was actually super hoping bow that thus is in back's hands, we'd see artorias in a soul calibur game ad a guest character

Instead, we got fucking ezio.
>>
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>>246399003
Picture this... but Dark Souls
>>
>>246399036
A combination of a few /v/irgins upset that they couldn't succeed where Vaati did, a few complaining because they don't agree with what he says, and very many upset because he actually has a face, so that means he's able to be singled out and hated by merit of simply existing and having a form.

He's honestly not that bad, he's easily the best YouTube Dark Souls video editor there is, and the best storyteller. Although he could do away with a lot of his needless agendas and goal-pushing.
>>
>>246399089
>>bro-op with giant Sif for the rest of the game
That would be a nightmare
>>
>>246398946
No, but it helps since people tend to accrue plenty of sin killing NPCs for the their stuff before going into NG+
>>
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>>246399114
Anon, I....
>>
>>246398893
>Blue Sentinels
>not just one faggot sitting around desperately mashing Square/X on his blue eye orbs
Blueberry pls
>>
>>246399114

Get fucked dude, Ezio is like the most fitting guest char in a Soul Calibur game yet

>>246399234

Okay what the fuck, how do people do this
>>
>>246399036
He makes up a ton of insane theories and gets paid for it for some reason.
>>
>>246399036
He speculates far too much (which then gets taken as 100% canon), and he blatantly rips content from /v/ and reddit without citation. He's pretty handsome though, I'll give him that.
>>
>>246399234
>dat sif
>>
>>246393637
>Or it could just be that they're hollow.

Read the inscription
>>
>>246399036
Because we already get enough e-celeb circle jerking on this board as it is. Take that shit to reddit, faggot.
>>
>>246399313

So basically /v/ is jealous he does what we do all the time except he gets paid for it

Lyl
>>
>>246399330
you are now imagining Sif as Artoria's stand ORAORAORAORAing Manus to death
>>
>>246399327
Hey Vaati nice to see you in the thread
>>246399378
>Anyone who has subscribers is an e-celeb
>>
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>>246399234
HOW THE FUCK DID THEY DO THIS
>>
>>246399391
Speak for yourself. I love the Souls series, but all the fucking fanfiction making strikes me as nothing more than inane.
>>
>>246399438
Only if I can also imagine Smough as Ornstein's.

With a ton of ZAWAZAWAZAWAZAWA before the fight.
>>
>>246399313
>Watch one of his videos
>Pinwheel
>Literally comes up with the idea that pinwheel is a family fused under a cloak due to necromancy gone wrong
The shit he comes up with is unbelievable
>>
>>246399234
That's... fucking amazing. He got the helmet and everything.
>>
>>246399460
Anyone who uploads videos solely to the internet and makes money/has a fanbase from it is an e-celeb.

We wouldn't be talking about him if he wasn't, you dipshit faggot.
>>
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>>246399460
>Criticise Vaati
>That means I'm Vaati
>>
>>246399608
Replying to it proves you are though
>>
>>246399570
>he hasn't seen pinwheel's concept art
>pinwheel wears all 3 of the family masks
>>
>>246398191
>caestus
>v seal

are you joking?

you know v seal does not work with caestus, right?
>>
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Why the hell are people shitting on Pate? He flat out tells you that there's dangerous shit surrounding various treasures. He's also the one who gives you a weapon and a white sign soap stone just to be a bro. Creighton is just straight up crazy, and he wears a disguise all the time.
>>
>>246399696
I meant that I will fight him with a Henshin Logo while he holds my Cestus.
>>
>>246399036
Yes
>>
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>>246399657
Sure thing.
>>
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>>246398831
>no smough
>>
>>246399716
Because he's more the sinister murderer who becomes your friend and later stabs you in the back, where Creighton is the more direct murderer who will simply cut your head off if he decides you need to die.

Both of them will stab you in the back later, but at least Creighton is very clear that his entire goal was "Kill fucking Pate, fuck that piece of shit, fuck everything he stands for" first.
>>
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>>246399570
yo bro, you just didn't read between the liiiines man.

>someone please shop vaati fans into this, i can't be assed
>>
>>246396960
>There are rumors of a hero turned
Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend.
For his own good, of course.

That sounds like Havel to me
>>
>>246399327
Ffffffffffffffffffffffffffag
>>
>>246399716
It seems to me Pate was meant to fake out players who expected him to be this game's Patches.
>>
>>246396960
>Havel's Ring supposed to give you strength
>It doesn't actually give you strength
Deepest lore my arse
>>
>>246399940
Any number of soldiers could be regarded as heroes. Not to mention they very well could simply have been grandstanding as Havel proper to protect him.

The ring is the ultimate reason why it'd be unreasonable to assume Havel was in there. He already has the strength to wield that insane dragon-tooth and mountainous stone armor, he doesn't need a boost. His soldiers do.
>>
>rewatching the trailers
>realize there's probably a ton of shit they cut
Goddammit
>>
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>>246400083
U Wot m8
>>
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>>246399843
>Implying Smough is one of Gywn's knights

Get your lore st8
>>
>>246399915
>pate actually does stuff for you
>tells you not to trust him
>stabs you in the back in the end
Douchebag.

>Creighton never does anything but mumble like a maniac
>matches the description of the serial killer
>stabs you in the back
Bigger douchebag.
>>
>>246400224
He isn't.
>>
>>246400228
>Creighton never does anything but mumble like a maniac
>Immediately thanks you for releasing him
>Warns you of some bizarre ring you'll need to be careful of that Pate has
>Tells you to be wary of Pate's traps and shit
Pate pls go
>>
>>246400330
Either I can't greentext gud, or FUCKING DUH!!

Too much people powder in his feed.
>>
>>246400330
Thats what he was saying, brah.
>>
>>246400504
Except Pate never ever backstabs you, if you side with Creighton. All he will ever do is say "hey bro there's treasure this way, go on you can have it"

Whereas if you side with Pate, he will STILL do all of that helpful shit, and the only bad thing he does is a harmless prank near the end.

Pate is a bro.
Creighton is a maniac who wants to kill your bro.
>>
>>246400504
>be careful of
He just tells you Pate wears a strange ring, not to be careful of it.

>traps
You mean the ones Pate also warns you about?
>>
>>246393430
>>246393701
>>246394003
>>246394137
>>246394304
>>246393275
>>246393858
>>246394232
What is this "Idol that Stares" that you all mention?
>>
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What is the dumbest piece of lore the community has made up and accepted as truth?
I'm doing >>246399923
Anything would help
>>
>>246401040
Play Kings Field 4.
>>
>>246401457
Everything in Dark Souls 2
I hate the lore in Dark Souls 2, the B-team botched a ton of things so it is hard to figure out the lore. Fucking 4 Kings does not exist.
>>
>>246401457
That Seathe and Gwynevere fucked, and that Priscilla is the babby.
>>
>>246398831
>Londo-mat
>Cinderella
>Bon Firey
>Sunnyside Delight
>>
>>246401649
>Fucking 4 Kings does not exist.
??
>>
>>246401789
According to the Dark Souls 2 lore. 4 Kings did not exist and that Seeth had a "fourth" Lords soul
>>
>>246398831
Day and the Knights
with Sif, the trained Wolf
>>
>>246401471
>>246401789
wait, I just figure out something
>4 kings
>KINGS field 4
>4 kings are in the abyss
>kings field 4 is dark
>mozart is still alive
>>
>>246401887
I don't recall that, at all. Why do you say this.
>>
>>246401887
We can sat that OI king has their souls, especially considering that neither Seath nor 4kids had their own souls (as something relevant) to begin with and both are parts of Gwyn's soul. And OI has some similiarities to 4 Kings anyway.
>>
>>246401994
Old Paledrake Soul is Seath's soul, when he didn't have a soul before - it was Gwyn's Bequeathed Shard that is dropped in DaS.
>>
>>246401649
Just because knuckles isn't in a sanic game doesn't mean the master emerald doesn't exist
>>
>>246401994
Even though Gwyn's Lords Soul is split, he still exist in the so called 'cycle'.
Basically what makes sense is either we get Gwyn's Soul or '4 Kings and Seethe's' because Gywn's Soul was split.
>>246402179
Yea Old Iron King does sound similar to the 4Kings but it bothers me that the soul is assumed to be Gwyn's.
>>
>>246402329
I lean towards OI soul being that of 4kids, considering that Freya and Seathe are pretty much confirmed and separate Gwyn soul would be strange in that case. Also muh patterns.
>>
>>246402481
in that Case let me make the comment, I hate the canon because it retcons Gwyn spliting his soul.
>>
>>246399570
How is that unbelievable? Doesn't he usually say "this is just my theory but..."
>>
>>246402481
>>246402580
>put fragments of soul into the lordvessel
>they don't become one again
>they don't assume their "default" form
>>
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>>246401457
There we go.
Nice and done.
>>
>>246402304
The item descriptions are not 100% correct in DS2. Lots of things are described inaccurately, or with information obviously missing.

Manscorpion Tark indicates that 'his master' will never truly die, but may simply take another form. This indicates to me that Seathe is continuously being reborn or reincarnated (or possibly never dying in the first place, despite all appearances).
>>
>>246402179
>>246402329
>>246402304
>>246402481
This shit doesn't even make any sense. How the fuck did Old Iron King get Gwyn's soul? How the fuck was Seathe still around to give his soul to Freya? How could any of them have the 4Kings souls?

This shit makes no god damn sense, B-team just added references for the sake of references.
>>
>>246402782
Well then.
If the Lord's Soul assume their 'default' form, how does the Seeth Soul exist
>>
>>246402918
He had his own that he squirreled away to experiment on
>>
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>>246402892
THIS GUY GETS IT
>>
>>246402782
You burn the souls to access the Kiln.
>>
>>246403015
Who says souls themselves are destructible
>>
>>246402892
The same reason humanity floats about. They sort of latch onto appropriate hosts I guess.
>>
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THIS SEEMS LIKE THE CORRECT THREAD SO HERE GOES:

I'm currently running through the game with a str/faith build and I'm looking for something to replace heide knight sword with that scales off of my stats.

what weapon should I be on the lookout for?
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>>246403140
Lightning Mace.
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>>246403085
Exactly. I mean even when Gwyn hollowed, he still had his soul (or a fragment of it rather). So we could assume that other souls, even ones CU collects, also don't get destroyed completely, even if he should relight the first flame.
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>>246403140
Get the Large Club, lightning infuse it, and call it a day.
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>>246403128
Its been thousands of years. The souls would not be of their original hosts if they changed between people. They would have been absorbed within someone were that the case.

This shit literally makes no sense. They just added it for the sake of reference.
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>>246403140
Defender Greatsword, infuse it with lightning for more faith scaling.
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>>246399716
>>246403140
Defenders Greatsword
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>>246402892
Because reincarnation, and because the Lord Souls stick around.

Vendrick conquered "the 4 great ones" and built his kingdom using their souls.

Presumably the lord souls stick around, and presumably there is always a pattern.

A great one who uses corpses (nito and rotten)
A great one who committed a great sin (witch of izalith and lost sinner)
A great one whose kingdom falls into ruin, while his faithful knights stick around to guard it (Gwyn and the Iron King)
A great one who goes mad with science (Seathe, and Aldia)

Now obviously Seathe did not have a Lord Soul(tm) but he can still be considered a "great one", and killing him is required for beating the game.

The fact that people in DS2 have entirely forgotten what a Lord Soul is, not to mention forgetting who the owners of them were, indicates that we really don't know the state of the Lord Souls in DS2. All we can guess is that they are split, in some form, among several different entities, and that they have nicknames which are reminiscent of their original owners.
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>>246403140
Lightening infused Heide Grand Lance?
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>>246403331
unless the souls started with gwyn and crew. Then they could be persevering since then. king to king wretch to wretch, for ages and ages.
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>>246402892
>B-team just added references for the sake of references.
This is probably the truth. The whole game kinda feels like it's trying too hard to tell you that the events of the first happened in the same place way long ago, but it keeps disrupting this pretense by including items that should have simply been lost to time. Are we really supposed to believe that Havel's armour survived thousands of years when there's simply no geological or structural evidence left of Lordran itself?

Fuck.
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>>246403694
>dark souls 2 remake with the same team as DaS1
Not happening, I guess. There's Beast Souls but thats still only on speculah.
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>>246403694
Why not? Havel's armor is incredibly sturdy, and apparently has been taken care of.

Did you miss that it's buried in a chest directly underneath the Grave of Saints?
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>>246403694
Who says it's the same exact set of armor
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>>246403796
It's not in a chest and it's not in the grave of saints. It's in a fucking clay pot in the gutter.
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>>246403363
I am gonna shift the goal post a bit because that makes sense if we assume that the souls we get in DaS2 are not Lord Souls but the souls of the 4 characters.
New Question: Does that mean we have to assume that Seeth is not a dragon?
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>>246403140

Throne Defender Sword is your best bet, you'll do a fuck ton of damage if you upgrade it. You can also use Sunlight blade on it.
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>>246403921
>people still trying to say Dragons are gingers
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>>246403363
But that doesn't make any kind of sense and is a huge stretch of assumptions.

How would the lord souls stick around? They're made up of the first fire that Gwyn finds and that the CU burns to reach the Kiln.

Now what I think happened is that the devs of DaS2 were riding too hard off the backs of the devs of DaS1 and pretty much just copied the formula and added their own spin to it. While completely fudging anything that didn't match with what the wanted, as well as trying to connect their game as much as possible to the first.
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>>246403873

im pretty sure its in the gutter nerd
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>>246403948
you can't use sunlight blade on it, it has special 2handed r2 that's basically the same tho
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>>246403974
No. I am saying Seeth is not a dragon because real dragons do not have souls except half-breeds.
The Great Flame brought souls into existence and dragons existed before it.
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>>246404020
>>246403873
Apologies, it's not in a chest. It's in a pot. In a chamber on the edge of the Gutter. What is the Gutter directly underneath? The Grave of Saints.
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>>246404130
Woosh
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>>246404130
>The Great Flame brought souls into existence
How much shit do you have up there anyway
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But what if its just a dream.
So deep
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4 player rpg where you play as Ornstein,Artorias,Ciaran and Gough
Make it happen FROM
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>>246404360
>Smough keeps ringing you up asking to go bowling
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>>246404173
So it's not in the grave of saints, it's underneath it. There's also nothing that inside the grave of saints that indicates it's a significant place at all. You're going purely off the name of a place that the item isn't even in.
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>>246404360
Everyone would just end up fighting over playing Ornstein and Artorias.
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>>246404447
He originally said underneath. You just missed it
>>246403796
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>>246392058
I think so.

My guess is Heide is where Gwnyevere and Flann escapes too and Ornstein accompanied them as the most senior knight of Anor Londo.

>b-but you kill him!
It's possible it was an illusion. The other illusory mobs also drop real tangible items and souls so it's not illogical you could get a fragment of his soul and replica of his gear. Think if it more as a clone.

>b-but he uses dark magic
My guess is after Flamn and Gwynevere fucked off Ornie went looking for his buddy Artorias and started messing with Abyss magic.

I have no idea what he's doing guarding the cathedral of Blue. He's not human so he's not hollowed. It could just be that he's retired there and you jut bust on after desecrating all his knight friends.
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>>246404253
Oops it is called the First Flame. But the first Flame was the source of souls and Dragons lived in an Age before it.
This was in the CG-cutscene in DaS1
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>>246403998
>>246403921
>does this mean Seathe isn't a dragon
Not necessarily. It's just means that that Soul (or fragment of soul, even) has become associated with Seathe. Again, the item descriptions in DS2 are obviously not 100% correct. They are written from the position of a modern day (in DS2) person, with all the ignorance and misinformation that goes with.

>How would the lord souls stick around? They're made up of the first fire that Gwyn finds and that the CU burns to reach the Kiln.
They stick around because they're special. Alternately, they stick around because souls never go away, except when they're burned in the first flame. And no, the CU did not burn the Lord Souls. He simply put them in the Lord Vessel, and then burned his own soul. The flame in the Lord Vessel WAS the Lord Souls.
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2comfy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86EEKzr8k44
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>>246404579
Pretty sure its common knowledge that he is dead
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>>246404057
It doesn't last as long and probably gives less bonus compared to Sunlight blade.
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>>246392457
Chosen Undead.

You're actual willpower is separate from the character so you can't succumb to it.

You only hollow if you don't beat the game.
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>>246404629
> But the first Flame was the source of souls
Seriously dude, how do you fit all that up there
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>>246404579
Or they just stuck him there because
>HEY GUYS LOOK LOOK GUYS ORNSTEIN GUARDING A USELESS FUCKING COVENANT IN A CHAPEL JUST LIKE IN DARK SOULS

You can make as many asspull assumptions you want. But what I just said is the only correct answer.
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>>246404728
Then the first flame is just the source of just lord souls?
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>>246404770
>GUARDING A USELESS FUCKING COVENANT IN A CHAPEL JUST LIKE IN DARK SOULS
If only they got to finish the whole game without cutting out content.
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>>246384215
I don't think creighton is that insane as everyone else makes him out to be. Keep in mind that this isn't modern society where you're expected not to cave a fuckers skull in if he traps you in a cage to die. By social norms of that world, it's perfectly logical for creighton to go set out to fuck up Pate. It's technically what any "policing" authority would have done too had they found out someone was tricking people into their deaths.

It all seems like a valid response considering pate was trying to kill creighton in a slow manner. Eye for eye.
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>>246404579
>The other illusory mobs also drop real tangible items and souls
Could you give some examples?
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>>246404662
You're just making completely baseless assumptions.
>this shit doesn't make sense because its written by some schmuck in DaS2 time
Is a huge ass asspull assumption and means fuck all. You're just defending terrible writing and planning at this point for the sake of making the stupid fucking lore make sense when it flat out doesn't.

>Alternately, they stick around because souls never go away
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands I've lost over the years.

>He simply put them in the Lord Vessel, and then burned his own soul. The flame in the Lord Vessel WAS the Lord Souls.
Again, you're making baseless assumptions. And just flat out denying that the lords souls aren't burning in the lordvessel while saying that they are. You're fucking retarded.
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>>246404925
The only thing we know is that the Lords Souls were found inside the first flame. It's likely that they're related, but we don't know how.

I am inclined to believe that all of the souls, including the Dark Soul are tied to the first flame. Since it is the source of 'disparity, heat and cold, light and dark', then if it should go out, then logically the world would return to the Grey Mist that came before.
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>>246405078
The Gargoyles drop their spears. The silver knights drop their weapons and armor.
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>>246404440
Oreo would just cheat.
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>>246404968
For my play throughs, I never got a Dialog when I open the chest when I chose to kill Pate. Everyone getting the Dialog after opening the chest when they kill either person is just a bug because B-TEAM IS SO GREAT
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>>246405302
Pretty sure those guys aren't illusions. The only *confirmed* illusion is gwynevere.
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>>246405451
Did you even attack Gwynevere? The entire place turns into a fucking ghost town. Everything disappears.
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>>246398169
they provide almost no premise or incenstive. a boss can be interesting and all, but if you dont give the player any reason till AFTER the fight, they wont exactly be an imposing or interesting boss fight.

I felt like in DasII I was just stumbling into them on accident instead of purposely going after them to harvest their delicious souls.
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>>246405183
>Is a huge ass asspull assumption and means fuck all.
It's not an asspull at all. It is as plain as can be that item descriptions in DS2 are intentionally written with misinformation, or a lack of all information. If this isn't obvious to you, you clearly didn't play the game. It's meant to show that the events of DS1 have become a distant memory, which is poorly understood. It has become less than legend.

>Tell that to the hundreds of thousands I've lost over the years.
They don't just wink out of existence. When you kill something, where do it's souls go, hmm? They go to you. If something dies and there's nothing around to take it's souls, do they just vanish into thin air? No, they stick around as a ball of souls (Soul of a Great Hero), and they can be claimed.

>And just flat out denying that the lords souls aren't burning in the lordvessel while saying that they are.
Wut? The Lord Souls ARE the flame in the Lord Vessel. They are not on fire, they ARE the fire. This is evident because the chosen undead literally drops a Lord Soul into the cold, empty vessel and woah all of a sudden there's a fire. This directly references the OPENING CUTSSCENE OF THE GAME in which the Lord Souls are depicted as flames, being held by their owners.
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>>246405528
Pretty sure the Painting Guardians and Silver Knights are still there after killing her.
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>>246405647
>They are not on fire, they ARE the fire.
Because the fire is burning them.
Kinda like how you use your soul to kindle the first flame.
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>>246405302
What makes them illusions? They drop items and souls so they must be real. Unlike Gywnevere who gives you nothing.
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>>246405529
Biggie Smalls is the most memorable bossfight in DS1, and you have literally no reason to fight them at all, besides the vague goal of "find the lordvessel".

Many bosses in DS1 attack you NOT because you're hunting them, but because you happened to wander into the area they're guarding.

The only bosses you're intentionally fighting are Sif, 4Kids, Nito, the Bed of Chaos (sort of), Seathe, and Gwyn.
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>>246405745
>This directly references the OPENING CUTSSCENE OF THE GAME in which the Lord Souls are depicted as flames, being held by their owners.
By your logic, Nito, the Witch and Gwyn picked up the Lord Souls in their hands, and then immediately set them on fire.

Either that, or you're completely wrong and the Lord Souls simply appear as flames, as shown by their icons, the opening cutscene, and the ingame cutscene.
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>>246405914
>ring the bells of awakening
>go through sen's fortress
>it leads to anor londo
the game is basically telling you that according to the prophecy thing you are supposed to find an answer in anor londo. Sen's fortress is the entrance.

they get built up a bit if you see the statues, though they mostly have a very intimidating presence and the atmosphere of the area does most of the work. thats true.

as far as the bosses go, you intentionally fight everything up and including to sen's fortress, since you're being presented with that prophecy to fullfill. those bosses arent per se the reason youre there, but they are the obstacles in your way.

With DaS II I didnt even feel like I was trying to accomplish anything. I didnt care for the herald so why should I blindly go along with what she says? At least in DaS II you got the option to go on without Frampt, for example.
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>>246405663
The painting guardians are, but because they're connected to Priscilla and not Gwyndolin or Gwynevere.

>>246405647
Saying items are poorly written because of transcription errors of the past when the space between the ages is so huge the shit shouldn't even be there in the first place is a huge ass asspull assumption. It accounts for nothing except lazy fucking writers who couldn't make a good sequel with actual tangible connections, so instead they reference as much as possible while trying their hardest to be as vague as possible. So dumb motherfuckers like you think more thought went into than actually did.

I also never said the Lord Souls are on fire you dipshit. I said they're why the fire is burning, they're the god damn oil for the lordvessel. Do you even know how fire fucking works? For someone so hell bent on comprehending what you read you sure as shit are bad at it.
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>>246405663
From the wiki:
>All enemies other than the Painting Guardians and Silver Knights will disappear from the level.
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>>246405836
Gwyndolin makes them illusions. He never intends for anyone to attack Gwynevere. He does however intend for the CU to attack the monsters defending her. And do to keep the illusion up he has to make them seem as real as possible.
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>>246406178
you got the option to go on without frampt, but you still blindly followed what he told you to do
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>>246406178
You can go on without the Herald. You can straight up murder her, if you want.
From that point on, you take your advice from the Illusion of the Queen, in castle Drangleic.

I will agree that I felt much more aimless in DS2 than I did in DS1 (where I always had a pretty clear immediate goal), I think the main problem there is the lack of clear boss identification.

For instance, in Dark Souls 1, your immediate goals are to ring the bells. Okay. Nothing matters but getting to the bells and ringing them. You know one is up, and one is down. Cool. You plough through the gargoyles because they're in your way. Same for Kellogg.

But in DS2, you are simply tasked with "finding great souls". Well what the fuck does that mean? Why do awesome bosses, like the Scorpion Queen and Chariot NOT count, but shitty bosses like the Rotten and Lost Sinner Not that the fight is shitty, but it seems like a weird place to find a GREAT SOUL DO count? It just seemed random.
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>>246406229
>I also never said the Lord Souls are on fire you dipshit.
>I said they're why the fire is burning, they're the god damn oil for the lordvessel.
> Do you even know how fire fucking works?
DO YOU??
When you say they're the oil for the Lord Vessel, you are literally saying "they are what is burning."
Because the oil is what burns, in a lamp.
Fuck.
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>>246406519
no, you follow the prophecy's direction. Frampt just elaborates on how the soul vessel works.

>>246406686
it takes a bit fucking long to get to the queen though.

And I agree with your point on DaS II. it doesnt help that you get no introduction to them beforehand. in DaS I you know at least some of the people who hold the souls you need to progress from the intro cutscene. In DaS II you dont know about them till you fight them.
I didnt even realise the lost sinner and the rotten were supposed to be great souls untill after I beat them.

A friend mentions that its kind of neat how having a great soul doesnt nessecarily mean you have a great presence or something. Which I agree is kind of neat, but when you are in no way mentioned or introduced in any way, they dont make for a very interesting fight.

The whole thing just rubs me the wrong way
>go be king
why?
>collect the great souls
WHY?
Why would I want to kill these mostly harmless beings? Why would I want to ascend the throne?
They dont even explain linking or kindling the first flame.
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>>246384215
I think he's a psychopath but I like to think my haracter is too, and when he tries to kill you with the booby trap that it's just some friendly near death prank
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>>246406686
>>246406985
also where the fuck did humanities go? I thought bonfires were fueled by manaties.
Where are the firekeepers? why is there no flame in the throne of want?
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>>246406328
Nah m8, thats too much of a catch all, and unless what you said is stated or implied in game of by From we have to go by what the game tells us if at all.

Gwynevere is the only thing we have to go by as far and illusions are concerned. She does not drop anything when destroyed, unlike the Knights
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>>246406985
My favorite is after talking to Emmy after getting all the Great Souls she just tells you to go tot eh castle

But where the fuck is it? Turns out its on some off beaten path in the woods full of big dicked goblins
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>>246391291
it's not implied that the weapon he wields is THE axe, he never drops it when you kill him or gives it at the end of his quest chain and the axe is only obtained from a corpse in shaded woods. if anything it could be a replica, like his armor
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>>246394078
>So she would guide you down there in the hopes that you could open the way for her and allow her in, but you snuff her out before she gets her chance.

Fuck, when I first played I didn't even notice her sitting there. So when I went and got to the Throne of Want, some fucking giant black bitch comes out and starts raving on about how I've done well and etc etc, I'm like 'who the fuck is this bitch I've never seen her'
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>>246407093
>also where the fuck did humanities go? I thought bonfires were fueled by manaties
I don't think they were. They were always just connected to the fire keepers. You kindle them with a Fire Keeper's souls, they go out if their Fire Keeper dies, etc.

Manatees are little chunks of the Dark Soul (at least, that's the popular theory), since all of Humanity is descended from the Furtive Pygmy.
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>>246407484
She's really not all that important. She has like 2 lines of dialogue before never saying anything again.

She could have just plain not existed until the very end, like how you met her, and it wouldn't have made any god damn difference.
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Only NG is canon
NG+ is not canon
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>>246408180
>b-but muh convoluted time!
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>>246408367
>muh ambigiuty
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>>246395210
What if they are the same person from different timelines?
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>>246408805
Thanks to Dark Souls convoluted timeline, it is possible that every human in the game is the same person. The chosen undead, Patches, Solaire, every mindless hollow, etc.

The real question is: "what can change the nature of a man?"
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So, what happened to Kaathe and Frampt, or the other heads?
It feels like a humungous shame that the b-team just plain forgot about them.
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