Do you think Creighton is really a murderer? We know for a fact that Pate's a cheat, a liar, and a betrayer, but I never saw Creighton do any murdering, aside from the one I helped him with.
>Mentioning the story of two characters with actual, non-implied, right-there-in-the-game history is now grounds for "DEEPEST LORE" comments
You know, if there were some mention of VaatiVidya in this thread, I'd get it. But I mean, I don't think you're even using that joke right.
This is something I don't know about Dark Souls: can you come to Lordran/Drangleic without being cursed/undead? Or is everyone there either some kind of ancient creature, or cursed?
I think its more that they disappear from your timeline (as time is distorted yadda yadda). So they still exist in their world as a hollow, but the link to your world is severed. Same way that players leave your world when they die.
You could but there would be no point besides mad loots. The reason people came to Drangleic was to cure the curse. Lordan was pretty much the epicenter of the whole beginning of the cycle.
They both are nuts. Pates not an in your face killer though. Like patches he'll let the environment sort you out promising you riches and happily stripping your corpse. Creighton seems like a straight psycho. Boon line is both are killers, they just use different weapons.
Doesn't Creighton's armor description say something like about how it's a high quality reproduction of the Mirrah military uniform?
Is there significance to that? Or just one of those trademark Dark Souls weird meaningless details thrown in for the sake of fuck all?
Cale said he saw a guy who looked just like the murderer. But Creighton wears a replica of the typical soldier armor with facemask and everything. He'd look like a nobody.
On the other hand, Pate was in the same area as Cale and not wearing a mask. Connect the dots.
if you kill creighton does he drop his armor, or can you only get it via the fight?
Cale is the real murderer.
The first time you meet him he tries rolling a boulder down on you. He then sends you to a mansion to get merked by a skeleton in the basement.
He later tells you that he saw a murderer from Mirrah. He's trying to make you believe Pate/Creighton is a murderer to hide the fact that he is the true killer.
they retconned how the curse worked in DaSII. it use to drive people insane and turn them hollow, but now it makes you lose your memory but you keep your sanity. Though for some reason the undead blacksmith doesn't... ya das2 is just fucked
The point is, it wasn't booby trapped by the one you let live. Whoever is killed tries to kill you with the trap in revenge.
When you let Creighton live and kill Pate, Pate tries to kill you saying "This should leave a scar"
If I missed them on my first time through Tseldora without noticing them, does that mean one of them killed the other and the event is forfeit for me? Because I later checked the room where they should be fighting and it's empty.
Why the fuck do people hate on Pate again? He never actually does anything to you, and his 'betrayal' at the end is exactly what Creighton does.
He's a complete subversion on Patches. He may be shifty but he only ever helps you and gives you advice.
>He only does that to win your trust so he could more easily stab you in the back.
Which he never does
>but muh chest
The same chest Creighton directs you too. He even says the same line.
They're both assholes, but Pate actually helps you out the whole time, where Creighton says he was about to kill you both times you speak to him.
1) There is no indication that Cale rolls that boulder. An undead soldier dies as the boulder starts rolling, and as we know they're not that bright in this one.
2) He tells you not to go in the basement as there is something in there that will kill you.
Do you even pay attention?
And for some raisin only a part of Lucatiels face is hollowed, which makes no god damn sense whatsoever.
Its like they didn't even think anything through and just slapped shit together that they thought was cool.
>tfw there are no good feels npcs in ds2
You can tell Creighton ain't right when you find him muttering to himself in Shaded Ruins, but Pate keeps up his long con rather well and does the exact same thing you just said, making him the bigger of dicks.
Benhart is happy in his ignorance.
I'd like to know how he was able to enter the Giant's memory though, and why his questline ends there. Like what the fuck is he doing sitting in a giant's memory?
>Father blacksmith can't remember rock collector daughter
>Rock collector daughter can't remember father blacksmith
>They just sit there in Majula, never interacting.
That shit's fucking hella sad.
He remembers her but seems too obsessed with his work to talk to her.
This is what I got out of it. Benhart had was the MC of his own universe and was keeping pace with you.
So they have the same key to the same shit, they're both cocklords and were in cahoots before Pate tried to nigger Creighton with a gate setting off his homicidal rage tendency.
They worked together. That was theyre old bolt hole as creighton puts it or pied de terre
work houseas pate puts it.
They are both jsut greedy treasure hunters. Undead be damned.
to be fair, his sword looks exactly like the Moonlight Great sword, its just fatter.
infact, his sword probably goes on to become the King's Field Moonlight Great Sword, if Dark souls really is a prequel to King's Field 4 like all the hints suggest.
in that game you take the sword, which is quite ordinary and weak, and you find a room in an ancient castle that is very hard to get into (takes like 9 dragon eyes) and you thrust the blade into the heart of holy magic and when you pull it out it truly becomes everything it was supposed to be, completely through chance.
so Benhart IS right, just not right now
Now I'm imagining Benhart wandering into the courtyard of the Ancient Dragon, and the dragon saying "uh... hm. I guess here's this. not sure why you're here, but whatever." and hands him an ashen mist heart, and Benhart absentmindedly wanders off and straight into the memory of a giant.
I didn't get that vibe from him. Although he seems very serious about settling down and work, it seemed moreso that he enjoyed that lifestyle because it enabled him to stay close to things that mattered most to him, like his daughter. She was probably the whole reason he came to Dangleic.
They probably don't talk, because she doesn't know who he is. But I think just keeping her in his sight is good enough for him, and in the end that makes it a warm albeit bittersweet ending.
Because they didn't think it through. In any other From game like this, a la Kings Field or Shadow Tower every NPC is in a safe area where enemies don't spawn. Or in the case of Dark Souls they're locked up like Logan or they're hiding/have killed some like Onion Knight whose name I conveniently forgot. Who I might add eventually does get attacked.
But for this one they just didn't think it through. I'm 100% positive they just added shit because they felt like it, and not because they had a plan.
Gavlaan and the sorcery merchant in No-Mans Wharf are completely surrounded by monsters. Gavlaan is even in the same room as two. I've never seen anything like that and I've played just about every From RPG there is.
I just had this thought as well, maybe the trap was set by one of them to kill the other. Whoever trapped it, Pate/Creighton's comments might just be snide remarks about your greed for actually looting the chests.
I figured that was just to show that she's pretty far into the hollowing process. We see some others that are losing their minds, but it's possible that it hasn't happened through repeated deaths, while that's almost certainly the case for Lucatiel.
Gavlaan is actually an friendly enemy.
Sorcery merchant is out on the edge of a dock far away from enemies meditating.
The boss souls sorcerer in the bastille is the best example, but even he can be explained if you want.
>the people that resurrected him are the B-Team
>Ok guys if we're gonna make Lordran2 good we need to take notes from Lordran1, so we're just gonna ressurrect Ornstein and make him fight
That's why he sucks compared to the first one, they did a shit job and his body was falling apart at the joints
What keeps the main character from hollowing completely?
Is there a canonical reason that you can die 10,000 times, and still maintain your grip on sanity, or at least have enough presence of mind to remember your goals and relationships with NPCs?
Or is it that were the story out of the players hands, the main character wouldn't ever die?
Both of them are murdererous bastards. Creighton seems to be the more straight forward psychopath towards his enemies while Pate is more a trickster.
It would make sense for them to have teamed up at some point for mutual profit. Pate could trick victims into some trap or bad situation and any who survived Creighton could straight up murder. They may even have both disguised themselves as Mirrah Footsoldiers which might explain why both routes give you the set since both would have a chance to have such a set in their possession.
Obviously they have a disagreement, Pate tries to backstab his good old murder buddy. Pate fails but escapes successfully, long enough passes that he feels confident enough to ditch his Mirrah disguise. But Cale spots him, perhaps and tells you and you know the rest.
Nashandra in general, she is quite clearly the Dark One of the Abyss and her design was based directly off the Idol that Stares into the Dark from King's Field 4.
and the entire plot is about how the Dark one, long long ago, tricked the civilizations into opening up the Abyss (which the dark one both made, and is made of) and it consumed that civilization, and every civilization that is built over top of it, like a layer cake, too get consumed in it.
eventually this is focalized into a single object, the Idol that Stares into the Dark, any nation that holds it will just sink right into the Abyss, and the Idol always finds its way somewhere else, MOST of the world is destroyed by the time of the game.
your player character is given the idol by a stranger and you head to the Ancient City to return it.
Dark Souls 2 basically took this idea and fleshed it out, it is essentially the backstory to King's Field 4.
Or did we? You do realize most of Anor Londo was an illusion, including Gwynevere, and that the Old Dragonslayer is not only using all of Ornstein's gear but is also seemingly hollowed and disheveled and using dark magic rather than lightning
just like Artorias was after traversing the Abyss? How do we know the real Ornstein didn't follow him? Also note that when you kill Ornstein first in the O&S battle, Smough has absolutely no hesitation before smashing Ornstein with the hammer. Don't you think he would have had at least a LITTLE remorse or sign of grief after his one remaining friend and partner is killed in front of him? Seems a little suspicious.
Both Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are a sort of continuation of Kings Field. Its been a while since I've played them, but I believe Shadow Tower and Eternal Ring connect to the Abyss as well.
Actually hes another nameless hero that thought the old dragonslayer had some awesome shit and then decided to post up for the cathedral of blue as a guard because he thought it was an awesome gig. The real question is he hollowed? He guards the sentinels so I cant say for sure.
What if he isnt hollowed does that mean hes in his own world like every other npc? When you kill him are you just severing the bond like in DaS1?
Time and space are convoluted between npcs so no one really knows.
I guess that can be one way to look at it, but if you kill Smough first, Ornstein's reaction is quite different. Some people attribute this to Smough's supposed resentment of Ornstein, but that can be seen as pure conjecture that is based solely on that one four second scene in the middle of the fight. He doesn't even think about smashing him for a second. He just immediately does it.
more like prequels, by the time of King's field the world is fucking over son.
and the Shadow Tower games are set in some weird sort of "modern times" complete with guns and everything, you just find your way into some hellish dimensional leftovers.
the Dark One is Nashandra, quite clearly, due to her design being heavily taken from the Idol that Stares.
O&S being an illusion in Dark Souls makes sense for when either one transform when the other is killed.
Did you even read their armor or weapons? Also, they're the same size as humans. So either humans are dwarves too, or they're a nomadic tribe of humans. Either way they're more than likely the same race as the player character.
>Bernhart's "Fake" Moonlight Great Sword becomes the "real" MGS during the gameplay time of King's Field 4.
>the prophecy that a real man would "unleash its potential" was completely true, just not what you'd expect
>you forcibly turn it from an ordinary sword into a holy weapon.
Smough was a savage and a cannibal. Why wouldn't he leap at the chance for more power, especially when his life is in danger?
Ornstein, on the other hand, was one of Gwyn's four knights, so he'd show some respect to his fallen comrade no matter how much he actually hated him.
>the Dark One is Nashandra, quite clearly, due to her design being heavily taken from the Idol that Stares.
Well yeah but could it be that the pygmy (having been there at the initial creation of the world as it is) or the protag of DaS1 are the original people that allowed the abyss to spill out.
Nashandra could just be someone that appeared later as a champion of the abyss.
Even Manus seems like an earlier entity than Nashandra.
I didn't mean continuation as a sequel, just the central idea of the Abyss swallowing a kingdom.
And I'm pretty sure Shadow Tower is connect to Kings Field and Dark Souls. Or at least the second one is. Because you are for a fact traversing the Abyss. It also shares the idea of fragmented time a la Dark Souls.
True, there is that aspect of Smough's personality, and again the frequent theory that he resented Ornstein. Personally I don't see how Ornstein being "resurrected" would make any sense, or how someone would manage to get his armor if it actually is smashed to pieces like the first game would suggest, so I feel like the heavily worn equipment the old Dragonslayer bears as well as the obvious indications that he is corrupted by the Abyss in much the same manner as Artorias all imply that he is most likely the real Ornstein and the one in Londo was not.
Or it could just be that they're hollow.
But he's sitting there undead all day erry day. While half of Lucatiel's face is going undead. Shit makes no god damn sense is all I'm saiyan.
Pate is the 'real' Creighton.
The Creighton in your picture is just some dude that has the same name.
It doesn't really matter though, since one is a dick and the other is insane.
Nashandra/Manus/Pygmy are essentially the same being, and seperate beings at the same time.
they are the Dark Soul, the smallest shard of the Lord Soul turned black, which spawned Humanity.
this also spawns the Abyss, which is the most prevelant running theme in the Souls/King's Field series, that of an Entropic evil (sort of) Semi-Conscience being and force, being both a singular entity and a high-mind-esque force at the same time.
this is true in every game the Abyss is in (which is every game except Demon's Souls) there is always an Abyss and a Pseudo-Being that spawns it.
Manus, Nashandra, and The Dark One (and presumably, but not seen, the Pygmy) all serve the same function, to be the final entropic end of everything, if there is one running theme in every game in this series, is that of the forces of good despately fighting, but ultimately simply buying more time for the next hero, to stave off the Abyss, the unbeatable, always looming threat, for all time until a hero fails.
Artorias traversed the abyss to challenge Manus itself who is pretty much the final boss of the abyss. In DaS 2 you're simply taking a vacation into the abyss and sort of "mastering" it, plus you have a very experienced old geezer who is like a modern day Darkwraith who acts as your guide/mentor while Artorias just YOLO'd his way in with no help. On top of that the player character in DaS 1 is able to enter Manus' abyss area untouched even without the ring from Sif.
yes, that is her plan, to snuff out the Light and let the Abyss become all that is.
infact, that is the plan of every single "villian" in the Souls/King's field series, see my post above this one.
He's just that focused. Hollowing happens when you start to forget your purpose and start to lose hope. On top of that, he doesn't really seem to care one way or another what happens, and buries himself in his work, so it's possible that he really doesn't know or care about the world around him. The job is all that matters.
I'd imagine that's exactly it.
As the protagonist, you simply seem to cook like Gwyn and possibly many other monarchs did in the past. But Nashandra, being a being of the Abyss and Darkness, obviously something would be significantly different in the event that she could somehow enter it.
It's very possible that it's literally impossible to enter without fulfilling some form of requirement, and she even tried to enter in the past to no avail. So she would guide you down there in the hopes that you could open the way for her and allow her in, but you snuff her out before she gets her chance.
There is absolutely no difference at all. No matter what.
They literally both set you up and say the exact same thing afterward no matter what.
The whole story arc between the two is a complete waste of time.
>He laughs when you fall for Pates booby trapped chest because he's an asshole.
Pretty much this. Creighton's a crass fellow. He's also violent and a little bit mad. He thinks it's funny that you almost got your ass blown up because he's a dick.
That said, he's no fucking Pate. Pate needed to die.
Artorias isn't human. Elizabeth explains Artorias was vulnerable to the dark, moreso than humans because "there was nary a trace of dark in him".
And you, who has the Dark souls, has quite a bit of resistance to the Dark, giving you a huge advantage. Likely just being in the Abyss was killing Artorias.
Pate is the fake Creighton and Creighton is the real deal, and the Real Creighton is Pissed that some asshole stole his identity and is framing him for murders, the Ring of Thorns was his ring, after all, and Pate took it to identify as Creighton, a man 'without a face'
well, no and yes, as EVERY game has shown us, it simply ends everything there is, its Entropy given a mind.
is Entropy evil? no, but it isn't good, and it isn't good for anything, especially out of control, the Abyss is the all consuming end of it, and "It" is everything.
unless your some doomsday cult, or some feelgood dark-hippie like the old-fuck in the chair, embracing the Dark is insane
A God. all of the large humanoids in the Souls series are "Gods." As in, a larger, more powerful race than humans. Did you notice that Anor Londo is too big for the Chosen Undead? That's not shitty art direction. It was built for the God race, not man.
>one man takes out every major player including all their fabled knights (sans QTassasin and BigBroGough)
jesus fuck, its really quite astounding, its some straight up "TONY STARK BUILT THAT IN A CAVE" shit.
But you can use that soul to make his spear. The spear's lightning elemental, not dark like when you fight him. That seems to imply that it's the original Ornstein, unless you're saying every member of his squad, if he even had one, had a boss-level soul from which you could make unique weaponry.
Gwyndolin probably has an easy time because he floats about with his magic. He was a very small person, but that's what happens when you are raised with an effeminate pattern of living when you are a magical being.
The firekeepers more than likely had a rough time wandering, but they were almost assuredly pampered due to their incredible usefulness in society, so I could see them getting carried about on chariots, palanquins, or simply by the other "gods" of Anor Londo.
Wait a minute, HOLD UP.
If people like Artorias, Gwyn, Havel, etc are part of this separate human race, how come Gwyn and Havel got cursed? They don't have any of the Dark Soul in them.
To the point they both give you the same key and then say the exact same fucking dialogue when you open the rigged chest? The exact same dialogue, word for word?
Not to mention you can get all their stuff in one playthrough (actually multiple copies of Pate's) so there's literally no reason at all to chose one over the other?
That's just shit-tier design, bro.
The hero comes generally hundreds or thousands of years after their kingdom has fallen to ruin, most of them are essentially mindless Zombies compared to their most powerful forms, and you have been absorbing the souls of countless undead, demons, and other monsters over the course of the game, and they are STILL extremely powerful and can kill you in a few strikes even with the best armors you can muster.
I can imagine fighting Gwyn or Artorias at their peak strength would be literally impossible.
What if Gwyn and Artorias and Ornstein and all that aren't actually giants, but just humans and you're also human but a different breed of human? Kinda like how there are 6 limbed dragons and 4 limbed dragons (wyverns).
That is what they essentially are, a different breed of human. Probably ones without any of the Dark Soul in them. Hell Manus was probably part of the "lord race" till he was corrupted by the abyss, which formed after the first flame.
Which implies that each time a new chosen undead defeats his predecessor, the requirements are lowered since all he is facing is someone at a fraction of their former glory, who had beaten someone else who was at a fraction of their glory etc.
Eventually, the Abyss is gonna win because the requirements for kindling are lowered each generation.
>Maddened zombie Artorias still somersaults with a greatsword one-handed with a broken arm
Can you imagine fighting that fucker with both of his arms, his body at full strength, and his mind fully-focused?
I like to imagine that the large humanoids are the way they are because important religious figures were painted as physically huge to denote their importance in medieval and renaissance art.
Who knows if that was their actual design inspiration, I just think it's a neat little parity.
Gwyn "hollowed" due to burning in the Oven, it drained him of everything, including his sanity, but has nothing to do with the curse itself.
you see, Gwyn and the other "godly" beings fear the abyss and the fire fading, because unlike us who can maybe shoulder through with the curse, they just outright fucking die.
he didn't fear being "replaced" by humanity, he feared extinction for his people, and he did, as King, what he could, and this is why I have a problem with calling him evil or selfish.
men who burn themselves alive for their subjects cannot be called selfish, its an oxymoron.
well he was the "Chosen" Hero and the greatest warrior of his age, so much so that they basically make fucking Link references to him, and his sword is essentially the fucking Masterword (THREE SEPARATE FUCKING VERSIONS!)
Well yes, that's precisely how it goes. Although the state of entropy over the endless pools of souls seems to actually keep itself level, considering it's not just human souls that are burned to stave off the dark, but also the dark itself in certain cases. The Humanity sprites that can be torched in Dark Souls 1 and various items in Dark Souls 2 show that the flames can indeed be grown much more powerful, and with the powerful flames, more souls populate the land.
However it's all essentially staving of the inevitable, considering the dark is an everpresent force, and the fire only serves to bring light to a world surrounded by the dark, both forces growing the potential of one another.
In King's Field 4, you're simply in yet another cycle of this, light being almost completely destroyed by the dark, but the hero standing forward, penetrating the dark, and FINALLY obliterating the source of it flooding into the world, ending the cycle once and for all.
Well, yeah I did. That's why I'm annoyed. It's a waste of time to put any thought into your actions.
They made this whole questline with the illusion of depth to basically go "good job. here's a key to a box with some lackluster loot in it, enjoy."
You'd think choosing one or the other would give you some unique loot that you'd have to play through twice to get it all.
Not necessarily. The successor has to gather souls and get more powerful than the incumbent. It could stay relatively even.
Feeble Cursed One does seem weaker than the Chosen Undead, though.
Kaathe explains this, Pygmy/Manus spawned humanity.
his left arm is broken, hes essentially fighting you at like 33% strength, both the Abyss and hsi broken arm neuter him.
its the games way of saying "Full Power Artorias would win"
no you get Ornstein or Smough's soul when you kill them second. It's what allows you to build their weapons. I'm starting to think that the first guy you kill is the illusion. That's why the body disappears into nothingness, and why it doesn't drop it's soul. If so, that would mean that canonically, the CU killed O first and grabbed Smough's soul.
Most likely it's just B team doing what it does best.
its not a true cycle though.
because, terrifyingly, the "Hero" can fail, and if he fails, the world is over, its only a cycle so long as a hero wins in time.
by the time of King's Field 4, many many nations are simply gone, humanity is on its last vestiges, and the Abyss almost wins completely, and even though you "win" (as temporary as that always is) the damage is done, shit is fucking wrecked hard.
I mean the game points this out to you, in KF4, you COME from a destroyed nation to go to an ANCIENT Destroyed nation, built over top FIVE even more ancient destroyed nations.
its fucking OVER son.
How on Earth died we manage to even touch Manus then, and don't say Artorias weakened him because we both know that us bullshit. Manus was in his element and probably took down Artorias in minutes,
Check out the cover of the game and look really closely. It gets worse.
...Artorias is left handed.
He ninja flips and hits you with a greatsword not only one handed, but WITH HIS WEAK ARM.
>Never read much of anything about DaS lore
>Reading about Artorias, he seems cool as shit
>Get sad that you will never play a game detailing his life and exploits, hanging out with his badass wolf lifeparter
Feels real, real bad, man.
the first one you kill doesnt drop its soul because the one left uses it to power up into super form and gain their abilites.
Did you even fucking pay attention to the fight at all?
Artorias lost for 2 reasons given to us, that he was a purly "Light" entity means the Abyss is his nature counter, regardless of his protections against it (being one of only 2 beings to truly survive going in and out of it) and 2, because had to save his doggy.
Artorias is still, far and away, besides Gwyn in his prime, the strongest being presented to us in the series, Manus is more a force than a being.
Artorias thrived in the Abyss till he fought Manus though, he did make a covenant with the creatures of the Abyss which I assume is the serpents who probably helped fuck him over for Manus. That is probably why you are needed by Kaathe in Dark Souls 1, because the pygmy/manus is out of the picture.
I guess that's simply a sign of the incredible tenacity and unwillingness to fail that all of the heroes of each generation have. They are willing to slay thousands of hollows, dozens of demons, old kings, ancient lords, and even gods to simply start the cycle over, and hope for a better future where they can eventually purge the dark entirely, and live a hopeful and prosperous life in the future.
Thanks to the ending in KF4, you seem to successfully destroy the one thing which is constantly obliterating entire worlds over and over again, bathing the entire world in light.
>Battling with your 3 other bros, including Gough pre-blindness, against everlasting dragons
Make it happen From
Manus beat him because the Abyss counters the "Gods' and Artorias basically lost because he had to protect Sif.
his incredible loyalty to Sif ended him, this is why Sif guards his tomb for the rest of eternity, both due to his masters willingess to "die" to save her, and because Sif never wants anyone else to suffer the fate of Artorias.
he's by far the coolest "Chosen Hero" character I know of, simply because the game does such a good job PRESENTING him to be this amazingly skilled heroic character, without having to SAY it.
I mean the guy has an entire area dedicated to his grave, 3 swords, 2 shields (and his sword, full stats is the strongest weapon in the game) 2 boss fights (sort of) and everything else.
and unlike Gwyn we don't get to know all his exploits.
Gwyndolin and his posse on the other hand are definitely selfish cunts. His faction goes through all the trouble of putting together the elaborate "chosen undead" ruse just so he doesn't have to burn like daddy did in order to save the world.
>We were battling a fucking zombie swimming with a painful darkness that kept him alive in anger who was ninjaflipping about and slaughtering everything in his path who was fighting with his OFFHAND
I really wish we could see his horrific exploits at full power.
>tfw like DeS most but can't speculate connections to DaS because only small connection via Patches
What if Vallarfax, Biorr's brother, is Gwyn and Allant is really just Gwyn after shaving his beard and washing himself?
That dude in the tower wasn't Havel. It was one of his followers. The armor set you get in Anor Londo was Havel's genuine armor. The real Havel is somewhere completely different. The reason being is that the "Havel" in the tower wore a ring made to give Havel's followers strength to wear the insane armor and wield the massive weapons that Havel himself could already wield.
if Gwyndolin burns no one would be there to set up the next cycle.
the entire process is to find someone capable of burning at all, who's to say Gwyndolin is even capable of doing it? he's not implied to be powerful in any shape.
the only Son that could is the First Born, and in all likelyhood he DOES end up burning if Solaire is him, as its very much hinted.
Gwyndolin isn't selfish so much as he is sneaky, due to his nature, I mean the man lives in eternal worship of his Father, instead of ruling outright as King of anything he sits near his fathers Tomb.
if Gwyndolin were truly selfish or evil, he'd be ruling Lordran, instead of being the only person even there at all.
That's actually an accurate utilization of time-travel right there. If you go back in time to stop a horror and leave yourself a warning for the future as you progress, your past self will go back in time to do the same, assuring you exist, so on and so forth.
Except that's not Artorias on the cover. The armour is wrong, the sword is wrong, and the shield is wrong. The only thing that matches is the colour of the cloth on the armour.
For that matter, it might be something entirely from outside of the game, considering the floating helmets (wut) you see around him are found nowhere in the game either.
>Darksiders-style curazy game with 4 playable characters
>Artorias is a mix of offense and impenetrable defense, can call on abyss power in times of need but doing so corrupts him to the point of no return eventually ala BoF: Dragon Quarter, eventually gains the ability to call on Sif for some jolly cooperation
>Ornstein is all about finesse and speed, with lightning power for ranged attacks
>Gough is pure ranged with brute strength to back it up
>Ciaran is all about sneaky takedowns and lightning fast attacks, uses plenty of assassin's tools and gadgets to take down enemies
Some device, soul, or other object which allows one to be revered as a king to the giants. The only exceptions to this rule would be those who already see you for the horrific monster you are and despise humanity. The dozens of giants in the Throne of Want revere you after seeing you destroy a being of pure dark and possessing whatever was in the King's Ring, which I'm certain Nashandra wanted all along.
Anyone noticed how the Giants have a similar face to the Old One, and both are tree like in nature? Giants turn into archtrees when they die, and the Old One resembles a giant tree on its side.
He has good intentions (save the world!) but he's a cunt in the way he does it, forging legends and manipulating the player via Frampt and Gwynevere. Even if he can't link the flame himself, was all the backdoor bullshit really necessary? There are plenty of lunatics such as Solaire who would gladly sacrifice themselves without being lied to if they had known the truth.
I'm sure that's just an excuse not to have to animate him moving around. You'll remember how FROM couldn't even be bothered to animate him walking from the door to the anvil when you first open his shop, so you have to reload the area or rest at a bonfire to de-spawn and then spawn him at the anvil.
um, yes, this is artorias, hence him being in the Guts Pose.
this is what his helmet looks like from the side
He was a bishop after all. It wouldn't be too far off to see that he recruited a legion of extremely powerful knights to protect the faithful in the Way of White, and seeing as how they were fighting dragons and monsters and shit, it would only make sense to put godlike armor onto his most powerful warriors and leave them in opportune places.
The thing that makes the golems, those "giants" made of stone, move to form a bridge is the Giant's Kingship. To get that thing you need Asshen Mist Heart, and to get that, you need the King Ring.
This cover (which is the only cover showing "Artorias" left-handing his sword by the way)
It just goes to show: Never send a trap to do a man's job.
The armor on the NA cover of DaS1 looks alot like the Alva's set from DaS2 from behind.
I just realized that the thing about Drangleic and cycles can actually make King's Field part of the Souls universe, considering the abyss plays a part in the later games.
>You will never fight a godly lord of a Souls game wearing full vestments and fighting in their own throne room
>You will only fight them wearing rags and tatters as they shamble about in some ruined crypt where only the dead lie
Poor Vendrick, man. He doesn't even understand what happened to him.
Nashandra played him like a damned fiddle, and then he went hollow trying to cure the curse.
Then the Cursed one saunters in, smashes his balls, and takes his soul and crown.
The poor guy just wanted to help, and it got him hollowed at best, or obliterated and absorbed at worst.
thats Armor they put into Dark Souls 2, why its on the cover of dark Souls 1 is a mystery.
maybe Alva's Armor was ment to be in Dark Souls 1 and was cut?
but its clearly Alva's Armor, that much is obvious now, in hindsight.
Nope. Read the canon material. Andre was once supposed to be the first born, but that point has been since scrapped. There is no first born in the final game.
No, no, no. Whatever Vendrick stole gave him the ability to create the Golems, the creatures in the Throne of Want. He probably stole something that had the ability to manipulate souls, since the Golems in Drangleic castle are inert until they're fed the souls of your slain enemies, which they use to carry out certain tasks and operate mechanisms.
>They literally both set you up and say the exact same thing afterward no matter what.
Which made no sense with Creighton. He is a murderer, blunt in his ways. If he wants you dead, he attacks you, he doesn't try and trick people, the one time he attempted not just attacking ended with him trapped first, so he defaults back to hunt and kill.
Yet he set up an elaborate trap and hid and watched me? Pate gives up if he fails he sets another trap, crei would just attack.
It was fucking lazy,
I always chuckle a bit when I see people saying that Artorias was left handed. IF the cover is Artorais, then it would make him ambi. I'll elaborate, if the cover shows his left hand as his dominant (he wields his sword in the dominant, shield in the other, that type of deal) then that would make his right hand his off hand, but in-game, his left arm is broken and he broke it by shielding sif, meaning he would be using his shield in his left and wielding his sword in his right..... Again, this assumes that the cover character is Artorias
Vendrick actually knew everything, and the entire games setting was his plot to slow Nashandra down.
you apparantly missed all the blocks he put in place to stop her, I don't know how since you FOUGHT all the people he blocked the path with.
not to mention the King's Ring and the Ashen Mist Heart, 2 other intentional stop-gaps to keep nashandra at bay.
Vendrick is actually a clever man, he couldn't win, so he simply refused Nashandra's ability to play the game at all.
hence the Ring being past the Milfanito, beings who sing and make the fireflies "dance" which causes beings such as Nashandra (and others) to be rendered comatose.
>just realized sif spent his entire life at Atorias' grave waiting for him to come back despite only knowing him as a puppy
>hundreds of years alone in darkroot just waiting there for his master to come back
I'm tired of you dumb fucks and your
>hurr durr Solaire is the firstborn
There is absolutely nothing in the entire game that even remotely hints it. You just want to believe it because you have an unhealthy obsession with Solaire. The firstborn left with Gwynevere long before Gwyn even goes into the chamber.
Solaire isn't the firstborn. He just worships the firstborn. You idiot.
>Fighting my old Dual-Cestus+10 CU with Vanquisher's Seal
>Dueling my old Dual-Ricards CU with one other rapiers
>Sif's master sacrifices himself to save her
>CU frees her from the abyss as a pup
>She spends her life guarding his grave
>CU, the only other being she could call a friend, shows up at his grave
>She knows he wants to traverse the dark and fights him to stop him and save him
>She just wanted to save you from Artorias' fate
>And she dies knowing she failed
I don't think anyone says that Dark2 has no lore, at least no one with half a brain.
Its just that the lore is far worse and not nearly as well thought out. Aside from Vendrick's plan none of it really makes sense or correlates with the previous game even though it tries to. Its also not interesting and completely forgettable.
No no, he knew Artorias was already dead, which is what made it sadder.
>Spent hundreds of years at the foot of his master's own grave, protecting his master's massive sword, even learning how to use it and mastering a technique using the fucking mouth
>Innumerable bandits, thieves, and other dangerous miscreants entering the forest with the intent to steal the covenant and/or the sword
>Living every single day with a singular purpose: Kill anybody who comes to steal master's most prized possessions and desecrate his grave
>Suddenly the CU, the only one who already saved Sif and even allowed his master to fully pass, comes to the grave, intent on doing exactly what he has spent centuries trying to prevent
>Sif needs to kill him out of a knowledge that he cannot willingly allow any of this to happen, as (s)he has seen the dark and desperately doesn't want you to fall to the same fate as Artorias
>Will fight literally to the death to make sure this doesn't happen
A thing to note is that the main witch in DaS1 was giant (seen in intro as larger than the regular witches/her daughters) and she turned into a tree/root like being you fight in lost izalith
Sif also knows perfectly well that the CU can walk the Abyss no problem and withstand its influence. Heck, she helped you kill Manus FATHER OF THE FUCKING ABYSS.
And then she goes full retard and decides to fight you anyway.
Sif is a dumb mutt.
Dragon God. It's actually a Dragon. Ancient Dragon is just some mockery, and the only proper Ancient Dragon in DaS1 decides he wants to sit on his ass and not give a fuck about anything ever.
>>Battling with your 3 other bros, including Gough pre-blindness, against everlasting dragons
In a battle of the bands.
>Ornstein on electric guitar
>Gough on drums
>Ciaran on keyboard
>Artorias howlin the vocals with Sif
>Friggin' Gywn on bass
Name the band, /v/
>helps you kill MANUS, FATHER OF THE ABYSS as a puppy
>this potentially occurs (chronologically) before you beat the game
>is now a stronger and more skilled adult, sees you now stronger, more skilled and geared to boot
>decides to commit suicide instead of helping you fight relatively minor abyss villains? (four kings)
>Name the band, /v/
Gwyn, Lord of Shredding and the Knights of Rock. Speaking of rock, can we get Havel in on this shit too?
I was actually super hoping bow that thus is in back's hands, we'd see artorias in a soul calibur game ad a guest character
Instead, we got fucking ezio.
Picture this... but Dark Souls
A combination of a few /v/irgins upset that they couldn't succeed where Vaati did, a few complaining because they don't agree with what he says, and very many upset because he actually has a face, so that means he's able to be singled out and hated by merit of simply existing and having a form.
He's honestly not that bad, he's easily the best YouTube Dark Souls video editor there is, and the best storyteller. Although he could do away with a lot of his needless agendas and goal-pushing.
>not just one faggot sitting around desperately mashing Square/X on his blue eye orbs
He speculates far too much (which then gets taken as 100% canon), and he blatantly rips content from /v/ and reddit without citation. He's pretty handsome though, I'll give him that.
>Watch one of his videos
>Literally comes up with the idea that pinwheel is a family fused under a cloak due to necromancy gone wrong
The shit he comes up with is unbelievable
That's... fucking amazing. He got the helmet and everything.
>That means I'm Vaati
Why the hell are people shitting on Pate? He flat out tells you that there's dangerous shit surrounding various treasures. He's also the one who gives you a weapon and a white sign soap stone just to be a bro. Creighton is just straight up crazy, and he wears a disguise all the time.
Because he's more the sinister murderer who becomes your friend and later stabs you in the back, where Creighton is the more direct murderer who will simply cut your head off if he decides you need to die.
Both of them will stab you in the back later, but at least Creighton is very clear that his entire goal was "Kill fucking Pate, fuck that piece of shit, fuck everything he stands for" first.
yo bro, you just didn't read between the liiiines man.
>someone please shop vaati fans into this, i can't be assed
Any number of soldiers could be regarded as heroes. Not to mention they very well could simply have been grandstanding as Havel proper to protect him.
The ring is the ultimate reason why it'd be unreasonable to assume Havel was in there. He already has the strength to wield that insane dragon-tooth and mountainous stone armor, he doesn't need a boost. His soldiers do.
>Implying Smough is one of Gywn's knights
Get your lore st8
>pate actually does stuff for you
>tells you not to trust him
>stabs you in the back in the end
>Creighton never does anything but mumble like a maniac
>matches the description of the serial killer
>stabs you in the back
>Creighton never does anything but mumble like a maniac
>Immediately thanks you for releasing him
>Warns you of some bizarre ring you'll need to be careful of that Pate has
>Tells you to be wary of Pate's traps and shit
Pate pls go
Except Pate never ever backstabs you, if you side with Creighton. All he will ever do is say "hey bro there's treasure this way, go on you can have it"
Whereas if you side with Pate, he will STILL do all of that helpful shit, and the only bad thing he does is a harmless prank near the end.
Pate is a bro.
Creighton is a maniac who wants to kill your bro.
What is the dumbest piece of lore the community has made up and accepted as truth?
I'm doing >>246399923
Anything would help
We can sat that OI king has their souls, especially considering that neither Seath nor 4kids had their own souls (as something relevant) to begin with and both are parts of Gwyn's soul. And OI has some similiarities to 4 Kings anyway.
Even though Gwyn's Lords Soul is split, he still exist in the so called 'cycle'.
Basically what makes sense is either we get Gwyn's Soul or '4 Kings and Seethe's' because Gywn's Soul was split.
Yea Old Iron King does sound similar to the 4Kings but it bothers me that the soul is assumed to be Gwyn's.
I lean towards OI soul being that of 4kids, considering that Freya and Seathe are pretty much confirmed and separate Gwyn soul would be strange in that case. Also muh patterns.
The item descriptions are not 100% correct in DS2. Lots of things are described inaccurately, or with information obviously missing.
Manscorpion Tark indicates that 'his master' will never truly die, but may simply take another form. This indicates to me that Seathe is continuously being reborn or reincarnated (or possibly never dying in the first place, despite all appearances).
This shit doesn't even make any sense. How the fuck did Old Iron King get Gwyn's soul? How the fuck was Seathe still around to give his soul to Freya? How could any of them have the 4Kings souls?
This shit makes no god damn sense, B-team just added references for the sake of references.
THIS SEEMS LIKE THE CORRECT THREAD SO HERE GOES:
I'm currently running through the game with a str/faith build and I'm looking for something to replace heide knight sword with that scales off of my stats.
what weapon should I be on the lookout for?
Exactly. I mean even when Gwyn hollowed, he still had his soul (or a fragment of it rather). So we could assume that other souls, even ones CU collects, also don't get destroyed completely, even if he should relight the first flame.
Its been thousands of years. The souls would not be of their original hosts if they changed between people. They would have been absorbed within someone were that the case.
This shit literally makes no sense. They just added it for the sake of reference.
Because reincarnation, and because the Lord Souls stick around.
Vendrick conquered "the 4 great ones" and built his kingdom using their souls.
Presumably the lord souls stick around, and presumably there is always a pattern.
A great one who uses corpses (nito and rotten)
A great one who committed a great sin (witch of izalith and lost sinner)
A great one whose kingdom falls into ruin, while his faithful knights stick around to guard it (Gwyn and the Iron King)
A great one who goes mad with science (Seathe, and Aldia)
Now obviously Seathe did not have a Lord Soul(tm) but he can still be considered a "great one", and killing him is required for beating the game.
The fact that people in DS2 have entirely forgotten what a Lord Soul is, not to mention forgetting who the owners of them were, indicates that we really don't know the state of the Lord Souls in DS2. All we can guess is that they are split, in some form, among several different entities, and that they have nicknames which are reminiscent of their original owners.
>B-team just added references for the sake of references.
This is probably the truth. The whole game kinda feels like it's trying too hard to tell you that the events of the first happened in the same place way long ago, but it keeps disrupting this pretense by including items that should have simply been lost to time. Are we really supposed to believe that Havel's armour survived thousands of years when there's simply no geological or structural evidence left of Lordran itself?
I am gonna shift the goal post a bit because that makes sense if we assume that the souls we get in DaS2 are not Lord Souls but the souls of the 4 characters.
New Question: Does that mean we have to assume that Seeth is not a dragon?
But that doesn't make any kind of sense and is a huge stretch of assumptions.
How would the lord souls stick around? They're made up of the first fire that Gwyn finds and that the CU burns to reach the Kiln.
Now what I think happened is that the devs of DaS2 were riding too hard off the backs of the devs of DaS1 and pretty much just copied the formula and added their own spin to it. While completely fudging anything that didn't match with what the wanted, as well as trying to connect their game as much as possible to the first.
So it's not in the grave of saints, it's underneath it. There's also nothing that inside the grave of saints that indicates it's a significant place at all. You're going purely off the name of a place that the item isn't even in.
I think so.
My guess is Heide is where Gwnyevere and Flann escapes too and Ornstein accompanied them as the most senior knight of Anor Londo.
>b-but you kill him!
It's possible it was an illusion. The other illusory mobs also drop real tangible items and souls so it's not illogical you could get a fragment of his soul and replica of his gear. Think if it more as a clone.
>b-but he uses dark magic
My guess is after Flamn and Gwynevere fucked off Ornie went looking for his buddy Artorias and started messing with Abyss magic.
I have no idea what he's doing guarding the cathedral of Blue. He's not human so he's not hollowed. It could just be that he's retired there and you jut bust on after desecrating all his knight friends.
>does this mean Seathe isn't a dragon
Not necessarily. It's just means that that Soul (or fragment of soul, even) has become associated with Seathe. Again, the item descriptions in DS2 are obviously not 100% correct. They are written from the position of a modern day (in DS2) person, with all the ignorance and misinformation that goes with.
>How would the lord souls stick around? They're made up of the first fire that Gwyn finds and that the CU burns to reach the Kiln.
They stick around because they're special. Alternately, they stick around because souls never go away, except when they're burned in the first flame. And no, the CU did not burn the Lord Souls. He simply put them in the Lord Vessel, and then burned his own soul. The flame in the Lord Vessel WAS the Lord Souls.
Or they just stuck him there because
>HEY GUYS LOOK LOOK GUYS ORNSTEIN GUARDING A USELESS FUCKING COVENANT IN A CHAPEL JUST LIKE IN DARK SOULS
You can make as many asspull assumptions you want. But what I just said is the only correct answer.
I don't think creighton is that insane as everyone else makes him out to be. Keep in mind that this isn't modern society where you're expected not to cave a fuckers skull in if he traps you in a cage to die. By social norms of that world, it's perfectly logical for creighton to go set out to fuck up Pate. It's technically what any "policing" authority would have done too had they found out someone was tricking people into their deaths.
It all seems like a valid response considering pate was trying to kill creighton in a slow manner. Eye for eye.
You're just making completely baseless assumptions.
>this shit doesn't make sense because its written by some schmuck in DaS2 time
Is a huge ass asspull assumption and means fuck all. You're just defending terrible writing and planning at this point for the sake of making the stupid fucking lore make sense when it flat out doesn't.
>Alternately, they stick around because souls never go away
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands I've lost over the years.
>He simply put them in the Lord Vessel, and then burned his own soul. The flame in the Lord Vessel WAS the Lord Souls.
Again, you're making baseless assumptions. And just flat out denying that the lords souls aren't burning in the lordvessel while saying that they are. You're fucking retarded.
The only thing we know is that the Lords Souls were found inside the first flame. It's likely that they're related, but we don't know how.
I am inclined to believe that all of the souls, including the Dark Soul are tied to the first flame. Since it is the source of 'disparity, heat and cold, light and dark', then if it should go out, then logically the world would return to the Grey Mist that came before.
For my play throughs, I never got a Dialog when I open the chest when I chose to kill Pate. Everyone getting the Dialog after opening the chest when they kill either person is just a bug because B-TEAM IS SO GREAT
they provide almost no premise or incenstive. a boss can be interesting and all, but if you dont give the player any reason till AFTER the fight, they wont exactly be an imposing or interesting boss fight.
I felt like in DasII I was just stumbling into them on accident instead of purposely going after them to harvest their delicious souls.
>Is a huge ass asspull assumption and means fuck all.
It's not an asspull at all. It is as plain as can be that item descriptions in DS2 are intentionally written with misinformation, or a lack of all information. If this isn't obvious to you, you clearly didn't play the game. It's meant to show that the events of DS1 have become a distant memory, which is poorly understood. It has become less than legend.
>Tell that to the hundreds of thousands I've lost over the years.
They don't just wink out of existence. When you kill something, where do it's souls go, hmm? They go to you. If something dies and there's nothing around to take it's souls, do they just vanish into thin air? No, they stick around as a ball of souls (Soul of a Great Hero), and they can be claimed.
>And just flat out denying that the lords souls aren't burning in the lordvessel while saying that they are.
Wut? The Lord Souls ARE the flame in the Lord Vessel. They are not on fire, they ARE the fire. This is evident because the chosen undead literally drops a Lord Soul into the cold, empty vessel and woah all of a sudden there's a fire. This directly references the OPENING CUTSSCENE OF THE GAME in which the Lord Souls are depicted as flames, being held by their owners.
Biggie Smalls is the most memorable bossfight in DS1, and you have literally no reason to fight them at all, besides the vague goal of "find the lordvessel".
Many bosses in DS1 attack you NOT because you're hunting them, but because you happened to wander into the area they're guarding.
The only bosses you're intentionally fighting are Sif, 4Kids, Nito, the Bed of Chaos (sort of), Seathe, and Gwyn.
>This directly references the OPENING CUTSSCENE OF THE GAME in which the Lord Souls are depicted as flames, being held by their owners.
By your logic, Nito, the Witch and Gwyn picked up the Lord Souls in their hands, and then immediately set them on fire.
Either that, or you're completely wrong and the Lord Souls simply appear as flames, as shown by their icons, the opening cutscene, and the ingame cutscene.
>ring the bells of awakening
>go through sen's fortress
>it leads to anor londo
the game is basically telling you that according to the prophecy thing you are supposed to find an answer in anor londo. Sen's fortress is the entrance.
they get built up a bit if you see the statues, though they mostly have a very intimidating presence and the atmosphere of the area does most of the work. thats true.
as far as the bosses go, you intentionally fight everything up and including to sen's fortress, since you're being presented with that prophecy to fullfill. those bosses arent per se the reason youre there, but they are the obstacles in your way.
With DaS II I didnt even feel like I was trying to accomplish anything. I didnt care for the herald so why should I blindly go along with what she says? At least in DaS II you got the option to go on without Frampt, for example.
The painting guardians are, but because they're connected to Priscilla and not Gwyndolin or Gwynevere.
Saying items are poorly written because of transcription errors of the past when the space between the ages is so huge the shit shouldn't even be there in the first place is a huge ass asspull assumption. It accounts for nothing except lazy fucking writers who couldn't make a good sequel with actual tangible connections, so instead they reference as much as possible while trying their hardest to be as vague as possible. So dumb motherfuckers like you think more thought went into than actually did.
I also never said the Lord Souls are on fire you dipshit. I said they're why the fire is burning, they're the god damn oil for the lordvessel. Do you even know how fire fucking works? For someone so hell bent on comprehending what you read you sure as shit are bad at it.
Gwyndolin makes them illusions. He never intends for anyone to attack Gwynevere. He does however intend for the CU to attack the monsters defending her. And do to keep the illusion up he has to make them seem as real as possible.
You can go on without the Herald. You can straight up murder her, if you want.
From that point on, you take your advice from the Illusion of the Queen, in castle Drangleic.
I will agree that I felt much more aimless in DS2 than I did in DS1 (where I always had a pretty clear immediate goal), I think the main problem there is the lack of clear boss identification.
For instance, in Dark Souls 1, your immediate goals are to ring the bells. Okay. Nothing matters but getting to the bells and ringing them. You know one is up, and one is down. Cool. You plough through the gargoyles because they're in your way. Same for Kellogg.
But in DS2, you are simply tasked with "finding great souls". Well what the fuck does that mean? Why do awesome bosses, like the Scorpion Queen and Chariot NOT count, but shitty bosses like the Rotten and Lost Sinner
Not that the fight is shitty, but it seems like a weird place to find a GREAT SOULDO count? It just seemed random.
>I also never said the Lord Souls are on fire you dipshit.
>I said they're why the fire is burning, they're the god damn oil for the lordvessel.
> Do you even know how fire fucking works?
When you say they're the oil for the Lord Vessel, you are literally saying "they are what is burning."
Because the oil is what burns, in a lamp.
no, you follow the prophecy's direction. Frampt just elaborates on how the soul vessel works.
it takes a bit fucking long to get to the queen though.
And I agree with your point on DaS II. it doesnt help that you get no introduction to them beforehand. in DaS I you know at least some of the people who hold the souls you need to progress from the intro cutscene. In DaS II you dont know about them till you fight them.
I didnt even realise the lost sinner and the rotten were supposed to be great souls untill after I beat them.
A friend mentions that its kind of neat how having a great soul doesnt nessecarily mean you have a great presence or something. Which I agree is kind of neat, but when you are in no way mentioned or introduced in any way, they dont make for a very interesting fight.
The whole thing just rubs me the wrong way
>go be king
>collect the great souls
Why would I want to kill these mostly harmless beings? Why would I want to ascend the throne?
They dont even explain linking or kindling the first flame.
Nah m8, thats too much of a catch all, and unless what you said is stated or implied in game of by From we have to go by what the game tells us if at all.
Gwynevere is the only thing we have to go by as far and illusions are concerned. She does not drop anything when destroyed, unlike the Knights
My favorite is after talking to Emmy after getting all the Great Souls she just tells you to go tot eh castle
But where the fuck is it? Turns out its on some off beaten path in the woods full of big dicked goblins
it's not implied that the weapon he wields is THE axe, he never drops it when you kill him or gives it at the end of his quest chain and the axe is only obtained from a corpse in shaded woods. if anything it could be a replica, like his armor
>So she would guide you down there in the hopes that you could open the way for her and allow her in, but you snuff her out before she gets her chance.
Fuck, when I first played I didn't even notice her sitting there. So when I went and got to the Throne of Want, some fucking giant black bitch comes out and starts raving on about how I've done well and etc etc, I'm like 'who the fuck is this bitch I've never seen her'
>also where the fuck did humanities go? I thought bonfires were fueled by manaties
I don't think they were. They were always just connected to the fire keepers. You kindle them with a Fire Keeper's souls, they go out if their Fire Keeper dies, etc.
Manatees are little chunks of the Dark Soul (at least, that's the popular theory), since all of Humanity is descended from the Furtive Pygmy.
She's really not all that important. She has like 2 lines of dialogue before never saying anything again.
She could have just plain not existed until the very end, like how you met her, and it wouldn't have made any god damn difference.
Thanks to Dark Souls convoluted timeline, it is possible that every human in the game is the same person. The chosen undead, Patches, Solaire, every mindless hollow, etc.
The real question is: "what can change the nature of a man?"