>NO HE MUST STAND TRIAL!
Oh you mean like Count Dooku? You fucking asshat
it's sad. It's clear Lucas had some good ideas in ROTS,but they just weren't fleshed out fully.
Lucas wanted to portray the jedi as flawed and show how anikin was struggling with that, but he just didn't take the time to portray it properly.
so much wasted potential.
Idk they do come off as kinda clueless and they even admit that in Clones and Sith. At one point Mace says "our ability to use the Force has diminished". What isn't shown as well is how this is a result of their hypocrisy and arrogance.
Still, it doesn't stop plebs from talking about how stupid the Jedi seem as if it were a plot hole when it's clearly intentional.
I always get confused with Episode II... was Dooku a good guy in the end?
Originally, it sounds like Dooku knew Palpatine was amazing power and realized the Republic sucked and honestly wanted peace and to separate from it. But the Republic was lied to by Palpatine, taht Dooku was the bad guy and thus Dooku is hunted down in a war and killed.
BUT, watch Episode III and even parts of II: Dooku was workign for Palpatine and probably knew he was the evil Sith Master. He knewingly helped cause this war, to help his master.
I prefer either: Dooku is totally good or confused or grey jedi OR he clearly workign for the Sith and their manipulations.
Palpatine was not only someone he looked up to, but also had something he wanted, which was a way to save Padme.
Not long after he says something like "I need him!", so it was more what he wanted out of him at the time by prolonging his life.
>clearly working for the sith
You mean Darth Tyranus was working for the sith!?
What are you trying to say? Sheev manipulated Dooku into being the scapegoat to start a war and raise a clone army. He knew it would give him power as Supreme Chancellor so he could implode the Jedi from within by restricting their rights and suffocatting them politically.
Who would conduct the trial? He IS the Senate.
>Sheev manipulated Dooku into being the scapegoat to start a war and raise a clone army. He knew it would give him power as Supreme Chancellor so he could implode the Jedi from within by restricting their rights and suffocatting them politically.
No, I know, I just think Episode II would have been better if Dooku didn't just become another Sith Lord.
I don't want to shill but I did see a video series that says the same exact idea and I agree with it.
>oh you mean like count dooku
thats the point he doesnt want another dooku, you could see he was torn over killing dooku when he did it and sheev is his father figure so he doesnt want to see that
M8 he was a certified Sith Lord. He even had a Darth title, Darth Tyrannus. He was the faux leader of the Separatists. His mission was to start a civil war that would justify the creation of the clone army, and keep the Jedi occupied while Sheev expanded his control over the Republic (while at the same time causing the number of Jedi to dwindle significantly due to war casualties). The original plan was for the CIS to lose the Clone Wars, execute Order 66 and for Dooku and Sheev to take complete control of the Republic to create the Empire. Dooku was in on all that. What he didn't know was that Sheev really wanted Anakin as an apprentice because he was far more gifted with the Force, so when Sheev saw an opportunity to get rid of Dooku and turn Anakin to the dark side he took it.
>tfw dooku was loyal and dindu nuffin and traitor sheev has him executed like a Jedi scum
Your second line is motivation enough, just Dooku should be against Palpatine.
I know all this as well, but in Episode II: Dooku TELLS OBI WAN there's a traitor. Why? You are all right, but there is almost a plot hole or a second plotline where Dooku says the Jedi have become corrupt, soemone is manipulating them, and then... well, as said he IS Sith
I never understand that.
>the council is wary of Palpatine and knows he can be manipulative
>the council doesn't trust Anakin, (Mace blatantly says this)
>"Hey, let's send him to spy on Palpatine!"
The most hypocritical part was because Sheev was limiting them, not because they suspected him of being a sith LORD. Mace was literally just butt hurt because his Jedi militia was getting wrapped in red tape.
I think that was more for the benefit of the audience, because you're right, it doesn't make much sense for him to tell Obi that. Idk, maybe he was trying to make Obi doubt which side he should fight for? Obi didn't know Dooku was a Sith Lord at that point after all, so maybe he wanted to create dissent and unrest among the Jedi. If some Jedi believed that they were being duped into working for a Sith Lord they might want to change sides and join the CIS.
Trick Obi Wan? Hm, that's probably quite likely the reason.
I think Christopher Lee just has such a trusting demeanor and record
>That evil wizard in the Last Unicorn
He literally attacks Yoda without ANY provocation, after specifying "you survived" indicating that he had planned for him to be killed in order 66.
which he also ordered unilaterally.
No, its literally just a different of religion.
In the novels, during the arrest of Sheev, sheev points this out saying something like "Is having a different point of view a crime? You may aswell arrest the entire senate"
Yeah. He only had purple cause Jackson wanted it purple. I saw the footage of him asking Lucas. Lol.
Also, he's supposedly really really powerful and is a grey Jedi. They didn't exactly display his power correctly in the movies.
he ordered the death of them.
He is DIRECTLY responsible for many, many deaths.
That's how it goes with military. The individual isn't arrested for following orders, the guy who gave him the order is.
The point is that at first they didn't want to kill him at all, he just attacked out of nowhere and killed three Jedi right away. Yes, Mace later wanted to kill him, but that was already after Sheev killed few Jedi.
Also hes not wrong. It was Treason.
He said he would relinquish power when Grevious was killed. He even asks about Grevious, but they dont care. The jedi were literally arresting the Supreme Chancellor of the republic like they were in control.
Except they had literally no evidence of his guilt.
You cant just go arresting whoever you want. They arent an authority figure, they had no jurisdiction on the Senate.
It would be similer to Arresting the Queen, in England. YOU'D be put on trial, even if you did have suspisions of something.
>enemy of republic for years
>leader of the republic
>suddenly the bad guy?!
>it's all happening too fast
Am I the only person who sees this difference between Dooku and Sheev? Why the hell am I on a first-name basis with the guy now?
And the only real evidence they had was he was a Sith. A different religion. He did nothing wrong, it was Dooku starting the wars.
You cant arrest someone you THINK will do something wrong.
It was a time of war and everyone knew there was a second Sith Lord hiding in the shadows. They also knew that there were always two Sith working together, master and an apprentice, which meant that whoever the second Sith was, he worked with Dooku which means he was evil. Also Dooku literally said that the second Sith lord is controlling the senate. Also Anakin literally said that Sheev told him he's a sith lord.
I'd say those are pretty good reasons to have people at least inspected.
>they had no jurisdiction on the Senate.
That is why they intended to let the senate decide.
>No, its literally just a different of religion.
The sith are a political entity as well, and last time the sith were being overt things kinda sucked. And there were many, many republic-sith wars which were literally just about the sith trying to dominate everything. Being a sith is definitely a crime.
Theyve been inspecting him for awhile, violating HIS privacy. You're so focused on the "Sith are bad, Jedi are good" swill they spoonfeed you.
The Jedi are not a police force. They cant go around arresting whoever they want. You need to go through the Senate first.
The Senate democratically appointed Sheev Supreme Chancellor during war time, until General Grevious was destroyed.
The Jedi, having their rights restricted by the Senate were getting upset with Sheev. Anakin, who the Senate did not trust
>if youre right you will have gained my trust
Tells them he SUSPECTS Sheev is a sith lord. Windu immeditley goes to confront him, drawing his lightsaber almost immedietly.
Sheev, having done nothing wrong to be arrested for, Retaliates.
Stop thinking that being a sith is a crime. It isnt.
Being sith probably wasn't a crime in the Republic, but we don't know that, it might have been considered what they did in the past, something like being a Nazi or such, but that's speculation.
What was a crime though, was collaborating with Dooku in artificially creating and sustaining a war, which, under the assumption that he was a Sith, Sheev did.
If the last time they were allowed to exist they nuked half the planet, and this drive to dominate everyone else was literally part of being muslim. Yes.
Fortunately, reality isn't as black and white as fucking star wars.
>Characters aren't allowed to make mistakes!
Anakin made nothing but mistakes.
Not sure what Lucas was thinking making him an asshole since Episode 2.
This. Obi-Wan talked about him like he was a great and proud knight fighting for good and justice, but then Darth Vader killed him. So I always thought he actually was like that before he turned. But Obi-Wan was lying as always, since Anakin was pretty much fuckup since he was teenager, only pretty strong.
That might be it, but Lucas still should've made Anakin more likeable and actually a good guy before he started to turn.
On the other hand he made him pretty good in the Clone Wars, but that was just an afterthought.
I actually like Kylo more since it's obvious he's an ugly, Vader-obsessed fanboy.
Anakin is just some weird, creepy Elliot-tier beta pervert who would have all the recognition and women he wanted if he was just a little more self-conscious and socially aware.
>Or maybe he just remembers his friend more fondly and emphasises the good parts about him in his mind?
Too bad all we ever see him do is talk back to his Master, talk shit about him behind his back, act and fight like a cocky idiot, make rape eyes at Padme and scowl constantly when he's not murdering scores of children and decapitating people.
when mace dindu tired to arrest Sheev under the authority of the galactic senate, Sheev was legally elected and had legally obtained emergency powers that trumped the senates. On top of that the senate did not authorize the arrest and the Jedi aren't the senates police. They're peace keepers. Mace really was the traitor
It's almost galling how unlikable, uninteresting, and autistic Anakin is. What the fuck was George thinking?
Also he argues with him constantly.
He talks back to him in front of Padme, in the hover car and again on the dropship. And Obi-Wan is always snapping at him, I wouldn't call these guys friends at all.
More like a single parent and his shitstain of a son.
What's legal doesn't matter though, only what's right.
Its as if you said that people who attemted to assassinate Hitler or hid Jews were traitors just because it wasn't 'legal' at the time and sent them to jail now.
>Lucas was so incompetent at conveying the themes and values he intended to communicate to the audience that /tv/ doesn't even know how to reach a consensus on what the prequels were trying to say
>Manipulated by Sheev Sheevington
>Hates a sith
Whats a better reason to break Jedi code?
They toned him down slightly because they realized what a shithead they made him in AotC.
But even his turn was retarded. As soon as Palpatine said he didn't really know the secret to bringing people back, Anakin should've run him through and tossed him out the window with Windu.
If a German tried to assissinate hitler, he would be killed by the German army.
Sheev was leader of the republic, Sith or not, he was democratically appointed.
Its all about who you think were in the right. History is written by the victor.
Sure, but in this case it could easily be decided democratically by the senate. The problem is that Sheev killed the Jedi. It doesn't matter if Jedi were in legal right to arrest him or not. He could just sue them legally for arresting him if he were innocent.
Sheev was restricting the Jedi authority, not allowing them to be a galactic SWAT team anymore. Sheev went through all the proper politcal stances to surpress the jedi, but they just fucked off and did what they wanted anyway.
Lets just go arrest ISIS instead of killing them. See where that gets us
More bad character development from Lucas.
He has to be a fascist child murderer from the beginning.
From what we saw Vader do in the OT, I'd say Anakin was way, way more evil.
Vader was a fucking teddy bear by comparison.
I remember him saying she's starting to sound like a separatist, but I don't know what she said.
And I remember that in Ep2 when they are lying in the grass on Naboo, he says something about politicians being shit, and when Padme explains how democracy works he says that someone strong needs to force people to agree.
>He has to be a fascist child murderer from the beginning.
But the only reason he wanted a strong authoritarian state was because it would let them actually do good things without the bullshit.
The funny thing is, though, that Dooku knows that Sidious is Palpatine. So he knows that it ultimately doesn't matter who joins the CIS or not. The CIS is just there to provide conflict so emergency powers and shit are given to Sheev.
Since Palpy ultimately controls both: If the CIS win, Palpatine wins. If the Republic/Empire wins, Palpatine wins.
Dooku doesn't really need to tell anyone anything. He just needs to let things happen and Sheev wins. Which is one of the weaknesses of the prequels. There's no good ending either way.
Which is basically the platform of most Trump supporters.
"Politicians are too political, so corrupt and always caring about what everyone else thinks! We should vote in someone who doesn't care what anyone thinks!"
I never got the impression that he knew his master was palpatine.
It always seemed to me that he was fed information to get him to do what Palpatine wanted, but never saw the whole picture.
Yes, I'm not defending what he's saying, but that's the justification he has internally. "These disagreements stop the republic doing good, a strong figure would be able to do good"
That kind of thing is a big part of what lucas was going for. People choosing dictatorship over republic, only to have it not work out so great.
He knows about the rule of two, he would have read the Sith scriptures, and if I recall correctly he says something like
>The republic is now under the control of the dark lord of the sith
From my point of view the Jedi are genocidal maniacs who killed off a rival religious group.
Now I'm not say Sheev is perfect but he obviously was just getting revenge against the Jedi for killing off his people. It's not like he could go to the courts and get justice when the the Jedi controlled them.
In ROTS, he sure understands that his master has just blown him the fuck out when Palpatine tells Anakin to behead him too. He understands it's betrayal, not a politician telling a Jedi to kill the guy.
Yoda says no, but it obviously is stronger in terms of raw power.
He probably either lied so that Luke doesn't fuck up or he meant that the dark side always loses in the end since its too unstable.
The Dark side relies on tapping into your emotion for power where as the Light side relies on your logic and clear mind.
Its easier to be emotional than to let stuff go. This is essentially why the Jedi are hypocrites. The only jedi that truely is emotion free is Yoda.
Different emotions release different hormones, which the midi chlorians can react too. But that's just bullshit of course; science to make it sound right but even that is so stupid, I can't even shitpost it without complaining.
There are no midichlorians and if we assume they did, they are unrelated to Dark Side/Light side; they just offer potential and the Dark Side is how you use that potential
The comment you're replying to isn't technically wrong, but it explains it badly. Windu uses (and helped create) a form of lightsaber combat called Vaapad, which doesn't directly tap into the dark side, but does require the user to be very emotionally invested in the duel. The idea was that it took partly from both Jedi and Sith styles making it unpredictable and was a good counter for Sith lightsaber forms which had in turn evolved to counter the Jedi's, and thus caught them off guard a bit.
I always saw it as dependent on one's definition of strength and power, and it being a trade-off of sorts.
The Dark Side allows aggression to provide bursts or power and allows physical greatness, like choking, lightning, mentally breaking people or whatever. Some people might define that as strength/power. But, for that, you limit your existence to your physical body. You might learn how to do things with practice but you'll die and be gone forever.
The Light Side, though, while bound by morality, allows you to deepen your connection to the Force on a more complete and eternal level.
Even Vader respects the Force itself, seeing it as more powerful than anything else. As a Light Sider, you end up becoming one with that Force forever.
>democratically given emergency powers during the Clone Wars
And the transition from the Republic to the Galactic Empire was met with applause, people wanted the change, which was exactly what Sheev was going for.
>The Force is all the same, Dark side only means you abuse its use.
Makes sense. Of course, That means Lightside and Darkside are false dichotomies that the Jedi made up. I guess the Sith stupidly bought into it when they could have done their own thing.
There are no midichlorians
Didn't Qui-Gon say they were there?
And they had literally zero evidence Sheev was behind the Separatists and the whole Clone War.
And Windu didn't even bother to tell Sheev Grievous was dead to see his reaction.
For all Windu knew, Sheev was going to step down as chancellor. But he went to arrest him, lightsaber drawn, because he was suspected of being a Sith Lord.
The Jedi brought their downfall on themselves.
>Didn't Qui Jon
I'm saying it was a dumb addition to the mythos. Should be removed from it.
And I mean, literally listen to Yoda in ESB. It's so daoist and spiritual, the chi in everything
And then...TPM fucks it up
It kind of makes sense. The Light side means letting the Force guide you and only using its power sparingly for defense and protecting. The Dark side means harvesting the Force for your own profit and bending it to your will. That's why 'Balance to the Force' means getting rid of all Sith, and not just making Sith and Jedi equal in count. Jedi don't imbalance the Force, only the Sith do.
There are midi-chlorians, but we are only told that the Force communicates through them. Think of them like an antenna recieving and transmitting signals from the Force.
Why the fuck would GL name a character set in a different galaxy after a Dutch word that would spoil the entire trilogy if deciphered? Where is the logic there compared to how the other Sith + Grievous are named (after slightly altered words with obvious negative connotations)?
Use your head
He didn't. It was a lucky coincidence that Lucas wasn't aware of until after Star Wars became famous. Especially noticeable given that Vader wasn't originally Luke's father in early scripts.
Yeah, its just coincidence that the character with the biggest plot twist in movie history has the name of his twist in a language spoken in many countries (German for father is also vater)
The point was the entire Republic was bogged down by useless bureaucracy that slowed everything down to a halt and restricted everybody's powers.
Literally watch The Phantom Menace again without spouting memes all the time and pay attention.
And then Windu could've sent word back to the Council to go to the Senate to get legality for arresting Sheev. And if they failed, the Senate would be against Sheev and his proposition of giving him ultimate power in the Republic by making him Emperor.
>Especially noticeable given that Vader wasn't originally Luke's father in early scripts.
Seems like more proof that he wasn't named after the Dutch word, unless you're saying that the realisation of the word's meaning influenced his writing of the plot between ANH and the last two movies? I couldn't honestly disagree with you there because I plain don't know, but I'm sceptical.
>a more traditional practitioner of the Force has different views of the Force than a person who's literally said to be an outcast of the Order because of his views of the Force and the Order
Eh... Did George even have the "I am your father" plot twist in mind when he wrote A New Hope? He seemed to be winging just about everything else like Leia being Luke's sister
He literally invaded the ship of an Imperial fucking Diplomat at the start of A New Hope.
I knew you guys were retards but holy fucking shit at least watch the movies you're trying to argue about.
The first draft of Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Bracket and didn't include Vader being Luke's father. That wasn't developed until later drafts. The father/son thing between them wasn't planned from the start.
You can read a transcript of Leigh's draft here if you want too:
No, that's a bit different. I think they meant Qui Jon might be a bit brasher, or some other personality type, not what he thinks about the Force.
I mean, you can tell they disapprove of how weird he acts. I think it's different than his interpretation of what creates the Force, though probably IS related to using it.
he cheats for sake, alot
Well, I refuse to believe that it's just a coincidence that one of the main characters of the story is conveniently also named after the huge plot twist of said story, so I'm rather sure that George at least has kept it as a possibility
But that's only the first draft, before Lucas got to influene it.
>Luke turns bakc (sic) to the fight to see that Vader is rushing at him to deal the death-stroke. Valiantly Luke lifts his saber to parry; then as Vader’s blade comes streaking down, Luke deactivates his sabre and darts aside. Thrown momentarily off balance because the unexpected ruse and the lack of opposition to his blade, Vader is overbalanced. Luke leaps aside and over the railing into the shaft.
Even the fucking first draft has people use the turn on/off capabilities of sabers to their advantage, why does that never come up again
Sorry if I worded badly but that's what I'm saying. He wasn't named after the Dutch word.
In fact, in the very early draft of the first movie Darth Vader was a non Force using General of the Empire. Just your average bad guy. The cloaked Sith was originally a character called Prince Valorum. Lucas just ended up merging their characters over time.
Can you imagine what the scene would look like?
People activating their lightsabers in the OT while stationary already looks jarring as fuck, I couldn't imagine what it looks like if both them were mobile.
So, on the one side we have one 5 minute scene has soft proof that his name is supposed to be 'Darth Invader'
On the other side we have the major plot twist of the entire series as soft proof that his name is supposed to be 'Darth Father'
I go with the second theory
Of course, we can also merge the two and suggest that it was initially supposed to be Darth Invader, but then Lucas noticed the resemblance of Vader and Father and came up with the twist
Lucas didn't come up with the twist though.
And certainly not while filming A New Hope.
Remember that literally no one thought A New Hope would be a success, it's why the Directors' Guild and Screenwriter's Guild let him off the hook with not having opening credits.
But the father/son thing wasn't planned from the beginning. Much like Leia being Luke's sister wasn't. Writers develop new ideas as they work on stories and drafts over time.
Also, notice how Obi-Wan doesn't refer to his old pupil as "Vader" on the Death Star, as his identity. He calls him "Darth". Because Darth was originally the characters first name, not a title.
And notice how Luke sees no problem with announcing himself as Luke Skywalker, like he hasn't been raised to hide his name. Or had that name kept from him for his safety. Cause, originally, he didn't need to cause Vader wasn't a former Skywalker.
It started as a straight forward "avenge my dead father against the man who killed him" hero's quest, and just became better over time.