>>65017729 His track record isn't that great but heres one thing to remember.The directors hes worked with don't really care about color and thats why they put shitty filters on the finished film to make everything blue and orange. Even so the cinematography is fine.
>>65017819 >the art direction was just reusing mcquarrie's original drawings and running variations on things we've seen before.
I own the art book and you're talking out of your ass. Honestly, the movie was a mess but the art direction was fantastic. I recommend you check out the art book even if it's just a scan torrent or something.
Something that everyone has talked about is how similar this film is to A New Hope.
But something else that no one has spent much time on, is just how similar this movie is to "Star Trek". Abrams was totally free to deploy the same basic tropes to reboot both:
-quick play-through of the franchises' well-worn tropes and PLOT PLOT PLOTPLOPLOTINCOMINGPLOT with no character development -supporting, explanatory role from a fan-bait original cast member who supports the new heroes -whole worlds are destroyed in full view of those who may become the next victims; they literally just look up in the sky to dig the horror -the presumptive lead more bumbles and winks than anything else, but he periodically comes in handy
I honestly don't remember it now, but between Han's new ship and the Iceland-planet, I thought there was a creature which erupted in pretty much the same way that that other creature just about killed Kirk on that movie's snow planet.
why did the resistance exist if the republic was reestablished? Why where they looking for luke if the new order was such a big threat? Why would luke leave behind map pieces leading directly to him if he didn't want to be found? Why do they go to the planet with that temple/cantina place if they were trying to get to the resistance to deliver BB-8? I can probably think of more.
>>65017787It's not a reboot, but yeah. This movie was kind of shitty. There were only three things I liked about it
1. Han's interactions with Chewie 2. Poe 3. Kylo creaking out like a manchild
Nothing else interested me, at all. I was so fucking bored. Finn pissed me off, I just wanted him to shit his ugly little mouth whenever he spoke. Rey was fucking annoying because she was perfect at everything; The OST was not good, somehow the prequels had a better soundtrack. There were a bunch of wasted potential characters like Hux and Phasma. The CGI was kind of shitty, like with the abandoned AT-AT on Jakku.
Speaking of Jakku, it just reminds me of how much of a rehash it was. Fuck, this is starting to piss me off.
>>65017912 >the concept art in an artbook looks great! this doesn't really mean much. Things always look great in art books/concept art. That doesn't mean that it's properly portrayed well in the final product.
I like using Batman: Arkham City for this example. It has amazing concept art, but the game looks nowhere near as interesting as the official art does.
I am personally and sincerely disturbed at all the prequel-defense which has come about on /tv/ as a consequence of this flick though. I attribute some of it to shilling, but most of it has to be that many of you just had the misfortune to grow up with objectively inferior movies an available part of the mythology; you being cucked in your youths to believing, entertaining to some extent, that they matter, that they count.
TFA is no Citizen Kane, but it's easily better than any one of the prequels (and just as easily worse than any OT entry) And I've seen 'em all on a big screen, so /don't even try/.
>>65018253 That wasn't even a fight, that was just a beating. I didn't even like it that much, honestly. I mean it wasn't terrible, but I had a bunch of people tell me how amazing the fight scenes were. They were just there to me. They weren't good or bad. just 'meh'.
>>65018322 >TFA is no Citizen Kane, but it's easily better than any one of the prequels The only prequel worse than TFA is Episode 2. Episode 1 is so much more interesting to watch, I'm not even joking.
>>65017415 >so well received? Pure nostalgia/legacy. Regardless of what you think of Tarantino the fact that this got 20% higher score than Hateful Eight on RT shows how laughably biased the critical reception is
>>65018322 The prequels had better fight scenes, great ost, and juicy memes. While TFA is fucking rehash of A New Hope. Fuck off you Disney Shill. Nobody here is gonna shill for the prequels when they came out 10years ago
It banks on hype and nostalgia. Go to a country where the earlier Star Wars films hold little cultural significance, and you'll realize it didn't garner as overwhelming a response. As a film, The Force Awakens simply cannot stand on its own.
>>65018400 >The prequels had better fight scenes, great ost, and juicy memes.
Don't forget better characters, locations, and even, somehow, fucking dialogue. TFA was a literal redditfest to watch. TFA tried too hard to have meta millennial jokes in it. Tried way too hard to be funny.
It is YOU, you poor bastards of history, who have had the misfortune to be raised at a time when you could honestly believe, or have Muh Fight Scene sympathy to the effect that the prequels are somehow good.
There no longer needs to be some sort of exterior corporate shill for the ten year old movie. You yourself will defend it, as you have just ably done... my young, apprentice...
>>65017827 Its not that it didnt make sense its that it was stupid as fuck >super edgelord "superpower" sith gets his shit rocked by a girl and a nig who neither of which have ever touched a light saber >meanwhile a grandpa and his pet dog go in and single handedly take down all new death stars defenses so it can once again be destroyed immediately by a couple laser shots
>>65018611 >better characters yes jar jar binks was a terrific character >locations Gotta love those cgi animated shit lands >dialogue "Liar, YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE to KILL ME!" "IN MY OPINION ITS THE JEDI THAT ARE EVIL!"
>>65018400 >prequel fight scenes Were CGI filled trash that weren't even choreographed. They would literally tell the actor to flail around in front of a green screen and the. CGI random shit around them.
>>65018359 >Episode 1 is so much more interesting to watch, I'm not even joking.
i fucking hate it when people defend episode 1, it was utter shit and you know it. it hardly felt like star wars. it's only redeeming values were the soundtrack and the final lightsaber duel, which lucas didn't make someone else did.
Hated the action in this movie. Everything hapoened too fucking fast and I couldnt keep up. The way the movie was edited actually made me motion sick. It was such an ADHD approach to film making that it like I was watching someone play plebshit like a video game
The writing was fine imo but fuck abrahms cool down on the pacing
>Characters Yeah, because Finn and his non stop shitty quips and the annoying as fuck Maz were totally good characters >Locations Gotta love all those CGI animated shit lands. Don't forget Hoth 2.0, Naboo 2.0, and Tattooine 2.0! >Dialogue "What's this heh!?" *nods head* "Why da fuck are you doin this?" *nods head 15 more times* "YOEUR HAWN SEWLEW" "???"
The dialogue was so shit I can't even remember any other lines.
>Strong female protagonist >Great Supporting Cast >Excellent, fast-paced direction >A script that works on both a micro and a macro level >All your old favorites from the original trilogy (Chewbacca, Han Solo, General Leia) >Kylo Ren, an excellent villain >Exciting flying sequences >A beautiful score by none other than John Williams >A great reveal that hearkens back to the original trilogy
Those are just a few reasons why The Force Awakens is an excellent addition to the series. I can't wait to see what Disney does next to revive these movies to their former stature.
>>65018833 Theyre not though, my biggest problem with TFA is that its basically a remake of ANH and its a bit heavy on the fan service. The prequels were a flaming garbage pile. CGI everything, poorly done fight scenes, terrible acting. ATC was so bad I've never even seen RTS. The only reason that I went to see the new one is because LUCAS WASN'T INVOLVED.
>>65018925 yeah the plot in TFA was a new hope with niggers but it was still entertaining to some degree. and there were no whiny little fucking terrible child actors or shitty CGI alien clowns for the kids being forced into the plot.
one of the only reasons TFA is worth watching is because it's not one of the prequels.
>>65018925 Sam Jackson literally said that thats what they had him do for his big fight scene in episode 2. >>65018905 The Ren and Rey fight wss done with practical effects instead of cgi nonsense, I'm sorry you can't enjoy light saber fights with out retarded backflips and people running up walls.
>>65019127 RTS was the best out of the prequels and much better than TFA because it had emotional scenes like Order 66 and a cool fight scene between Obi wan and Anakin. The dialogue is still terrible but Id rather have it then a quip every 5 seconds in TFA and lightsaber battles that look like theyre bouncing off each other and then gazing into each others eyes.
>>65018938 agree with you for the most part except
>kylo ren, an excellent villain eh, he's just a whiny bitch. abrams tried to give him a motivation as to why he's evil, and he had that whole 'maybe i'm on the fence about it' deal, but overall it fell through to me. he started off strong and then became kinda hard to believe he was tough shit. if he was just straight up evil and we got to explore his character in the next movie, i'd be much happier with that.
>a great reveal that hearkens back to the original trilogy not really the staplemark of star wars.
>>65019031 It was at Star Killer Base when Finn started rambling about how he needed to find a way to save Rey while facing Han. Han then does that jerky reverse nod as to indicate that Finn should look at something behind him, then Finn freaks out like an idiot.
>>65018889 TODAY IS THE END OF THE REPUBLIC. THE END OF A REGIME THAT ACQUIESCES TO DISORDER. AT THIS VERY MOMENT, IN A SYSTEM FAR FROM HERE, THE NEW REPUBLIC LIES TO THE GALAXY WHILE SECRETLY SUPPORTING THE TREACHERY OF THE LOATHSOME RESISTANCE. THIS FIERCE MACHINE WHICH YOU HAVE BUILT, UPON WHICH WE STAND, WILL BRING AN END TO THE SENATE, TO THEIR CHERISHED FLEET. ALL REMAINING SYSTEMS WILL BOW TO THE FIRST ORDER! AND WILL REMEMBER THIS AS THE LAST DAY OF THE REPUBLIC!
>>65019048 no way. i'm not gonna TFA is a great movie, but it's better than phantom menace. a lot of things are better than phantom menace. i'll even go out on a limb and say Godzilla with matthew brodrick is better than phantom menace.
>>65019420 We don't even know what the fuck the New Repblic Did. Are we just supposed to take the ramblings of an obvious mad man as truth? After actually thinking about it, his speech scene was fucking dumb.
I'm not quite sure what people expected. It's not poorly made in the least. Yes, it's a rehash similar to Jurassic World, but the acting and direction are generally pretty good. I honestly don't get the hate its generated here. Were people expecting a masterpiece?
>>65020100 Considering all the money it made, the 90% on RT, and all the fucking hype I was expecting a masterpiece. >>65020096 Why the fuck is there a resistance to the New Republic and where did the First Order come from?
>>65020208 The 93% on RT just means that 93% of critics thought that it was better than mediocre. There are plenty of divisive masterpieces that have lower scores on RT. If you think that a high score is indicative of a masterpiece, then you're misreading RT.
>>65020221 To be fair the acting in the original saga wasn't amazingly stellar, neither was the writing really.
This movie is exactly like the 4th one, on paper not very great but its fun to watch. The movie had a TON of flaws but I thought it was mostly decent/good. Could have been great with just some very obvious tweaks that have been pointed out 100 times already.
>>65020208 >Why the fuck is there a resistance to the New Republic and where did the First Order come from?
The First Order is what the Empire became after it retreated into the unknown regions of the galaxy. After Palpatine was killed the Rebellion formed into The New Republic and signed a peace treaty with the Empire. The New Republic and First Order have been in a cold war since The First Order retreated into their systems. The resistance began when the First Order started to militarize again. It was formed from people from the rebellion. It's a pretty ragtag group. They consider the First Order a threat while The New Republic doesn't.
>>65020710 TFA was made with the other two films in mind. They made it in the context of allowing exposition to be doled out over 3 movies, like The Fellowship of the Ring. It's frustrating right now, but a lot of TFA's future reputation depends on the quality of Episodes VIII and IX.
>/tv/ has trolled some unfortunate individuals into believing the prequels are protected by some ethereal integrity of "true" Star Wars, while genuinely believing their characters and plots are compelling
>>65020814 Its better to explain the exposition in the first movie about why the fighting is happening, instead of leaving the average viewer confused as fuck and then leaving certain aspects like Kylo Ren being Han solo's son to future Episodes.
>>65020955 To me the rise of the First Order isn't a necessary part of the introductory chapter. We didn't know the exact political layout in the first Star Wars film back in 77, yet it was still enjoyable because we understood who was bad and who was good. The battle between good and evil in that film works because its portrayed entirely in primary colors; taking time to explain would bog the story down and dilute its simplicity.
>>65021162 But we did get an introductory when Obi Wan explained the Jedis also back then we just knew the Empire was controlling the universe causing tyranny and the people needed to rebel. While in the TFA the First Order appears out of nowhere and everything the heroes did for peace is lost from the Original Trilogy.
>>65021120 no they're not that much better, if better at all. the prequels had no heart or passion put into it. i get that it's george lucas's vision and he's always wanted to do this but he tricked the whole world into thinking he was a creative genius when he's actually a level 85 autist wizard, or at least that's what he became after howard the duck.
>>65021339 Obi Wan talked about the Old Republic, not how the Empire came into power, not how the Empire ruled or what it desired. It was a simple good versus evil story with a simple framework. Placing importance on the political layout was only an aspect of the prequels
>>65021370 i'm not trying to defend TFA, i just hate it when people think the prequels are good movies. you can't honestly watch attack of the clones and walk away going "i want to see that movie again!"
>>65021120 That's utter nonsense. Nearly every aspect of filmmaking that can be judged individually works better in TFA than it did in the prequels. The acting is better, the cinematography is better, the effects are better, the dialogue is better. Even if the word is overused, preferring the prequels is pure 4chan contrarianism.
>>65021474 The prequels had better fight scenes, great ost, and juicy memes. While TFA is fucking rehash of A New Hope with cheesy jokes every 5 seconds. Id take originality over mediocre trash any day.
>>65021455 oh my god i am soooo sorry, i didn't realize i was speaking to the leader of /tv/. if i had known you, oh mighty leader, were in this thread i would have tipped my tribbly and been out long ago.
>>65021579 >better fight scenes Putting everything else aside, this is a particular opinion that can't in any way be justified. The fight scenes in the prequels were among the worst aspects of those films. They went on for too long, were over-choreographed, and had no emotional weight attached to them whatsoever. Fuck, Hayden's acting was more enjoyable than the fight scene between Yoda and Dooku.
>>65021693 yeah they had more gravity to the situation the characters were in because it was a duel and not electric forest 2015. but they still lacked the drama. each lightsaber duel in the OT was a conclusion of built up tensions between characters that helped build on the plot. at the end of TFA kylo ren just asks rey to join the darkside without much else in the way of build up between the two.
The fights were boring. Instead of fast paced action with an amazing ost like the prequels (Anakin vs Obiwan, Obi vs Maul), we have two people swinging 100 pound rods slowly even though their blades are made of light.
>>65021399 This hypothetical is retarded when you consider the number one complaint is it's too derivative of the OT. Which is it? How are we supposed to view it outside of the context of Star Wars when it is inherently that even where it could be to its detriment? What is this hypothetical movie that somehow strips out all SW elements and can still be judged for what it is now outside the context of the franchise?
The only possible way to interpret this is "what would the reaction be if this was the first SW film". Which is equally absurd, but I'm certain we'd be freaking out about how good the art direction is, since it can't be derivative in this scenario.
>>65021849 The prequel lightsaber fights are really mediocre, but this wasn't relaly fair imo. It was selective editing, satirical computer voices and highlighting hollywood tricks to make it look insanely stupid in that context. I actually quite liked the Darth Maul fight desu senpai
Well the first part of ANH has a fair bit of politics. The Galactic Senate gets removed, Tarkin says that fear will keep systems in line, etc. It's enough to set up ANH, I don't think that it leaves as many questions as TFA does, which are pretty basic stuff that should have been answered, like
>What the hell is the Hosnian System? >How big is the Resistance? >How strong is the First Order?
Stuff like this lessens the impact that the plot has. We don't know enough about the Hosnian System to care about it being destroyed or not, we don't know if all the Resistance people are on that one planet or not, meaning that if they got destroyed it may not be the end of the Resistance, and we don't know how big of a loss the destruction of Starkiller base is.
>>65021898 nah nah, i mean lets take at look at rey and kylo's relationship vs. ben kenobi and vader from 4. we saw early in a new hope from ben's recount of vader that he was his student and that he was seduced by the sexiness of the dark side cause he's a dick. during their fight when they talk it's clear it's become master vs. apprentice. ben needs to distract vader to help the crew get out with the princess alive, sacrifices himself, etc, you know the rest.
in TFA, rey and kylo met for the first time in that one scene where he figures out she's force sensitive. other than that these two hardly know eachother. now rey knows kylo's an evil dickhole, she watched him stab his own father and her quasai mentor figure. after hurting finn, he just offers her to join the dark side. i get that the dark side are like jehovahs witness in that they're always recruiting but come on now. he should have just sworn to destroy her and everything she loves, that would have set up great rivalry.
i'm not saying it wasn't there, you're right it's definitely there, but i just didn't feel the full gravity of it when i first saw it.
>>65022104 Hosnian System = some irrelevant star system that are a bunch of asteroid fields now since Coruscant is untouchable
Resistance = small but well funded since the New Republic Starfleet was cucked by Mon Mothma (Space Shillary) after the Battle of Jakku
First Order = Strong since they built a superweapon that can wipe out multiple planets and was able to recruit soldiers and churn out a ton of heavy equipment even after the Empire was cucked by Mon Mothma's treaty ages ago
>>65022240 >I did think it was pretty cool when the JJ trilogy essentially blew up the prequels with the super death star 3, though. The first line of the film is "This will begin to make things right."
>>65022240 After the Battle of Endor, the Alliance became the New Republic under Mon Mothma and their first order of business was to root out remaining Empire resistance until they whacked most of them and they demilitarized heavily after that while the Empire survivors either went to the Outer Rim forming the First Order or were cucked into accepting a peace treaty with the new Republic where they retain control of their worlds but they have to demilitarize themselves and aren't allowed to rebuild their military.
The Resistance only surfaced when the First Order showed up.
>>65022240 The Resistance were basically just a proxy group willing take on The First Order while the Republic was too mired in politics to do anything about them. Think Britain before Churchill came into power, or how the US lets a small group of Kurdish fighters deal with ISIS because they don't want to fight them directly.
>>65017415 Because it has "Star Wars" in the title. I didn't find it boring, but I found a lot of it stupid. I ended up giving it 7/10 because I appreciated the direction/cinematography as well as audibly and visually gorgeous.
Story was crap, characters were crap though acting was fine.
>>65017415 I think one of the most annoying facts of this movie for me is that the villains aren't threatening. For fucks sake, the first time we see one of the good guys interacting with one of the main Sith, the apprentice of the leader of the child-stealing, mega-weapon-owning, mass murdering, Sith Lord-led group, he cracks a joke.
Just think back on any of the other movies. Aside from the one time Leia stands up to Vader and insults him, everyone considers the Sith, and the Empire to be actual, legitimate threats. There's a sense of power and dominance, and the way our heroes react to them gives us the feeling that the Empire is a force to be reckoned with. TFA has none of that.
Not trying to be a dick here. But why would the new republic not consider the first order to be a threat? They are the butthurt remnants of the empire, a terrible organization lead by a creepy wizard and they used the death star to genocide the fuck out of people and crushed aliens and stuff. How does it stand to reason that there would be a faction so retarded as to actually try and coexist with these guys?
It would make more sense if neither had the power to destroy the other totally so they had an uneasy truce that just got broken because of some plot thing the characters did then a massive war erupts or something
instead we get like 15 x wings against death star 3.0
also it makes no sense how people on every planet could see the laser from the starkiller base. and everyone immidiately knew what it was and who did it. wtf?
>Takes place 30 years after heroes overthrow the empire, we finally get to see the post-empire era on film! >Good guys are still "freedom fighters" despite being in charge for 30 years; script willfully ignores character development of rebels having to transition from fighting to governing >Empire still has most powerful weapons in the galaxy despite losing the war > New Republic barely mentioned, depicted for two seconds before being erased forever >Awkwardly force history backwards to fit formula of the original trilogy rather than building on the story moving forward
>>65022446 Yeah, it's a good scene until Poe cracks a joke directly to the Sith leading the troops. The best thing you would get out of anyone in Star Wars was the occasional insult or threat, because everyone knew to be afraid when a Sith has you in their control. Imagine if in the first scene of A New Hope, Darth Vader is holding the guy up by the throat and he just cracks a joke about Darth Vader, and then was taken into custody, it'd ruin the whole aura of menace Vader has about him.
As for the forest, yeah, Rey gets captured by a powerful Sith, then later on they redo that scene and she beats the ever-loving shit out of him, and aside from the planet cracking to pull them apart, might have just killed Kylo then and there. Also, in that exact same scene, the First Order gets nearly wiped out by the New Republic soldiers, and they only get away with Rey, really ruins any sense of strength they might have had there.
>>65022520 They're not the only ones out there, apparently. You'd never see Han or Chewie making fun of Vader right to his face, and hell, even Obi Wan had respect enough to not fuck about with Vader. Vader was deadly, and he helped prove that point.
>>65022610 Don't forget >Boss, your planet-destroying super weapon and thousands upon thousands of our soldier, ships, engineers, and everything and everyone else was wiped out in an instant >Who cares, lol, go get Kylo, he'll totally make up for it
>>65022630 >Yeah, it's a good scene until Poe cracks a joke directly to the Sith leading the troops. I don't understand the problem people have with this. How is this any different than Leia making fun of Tarkin to his face? It didn't diminish Kylo Ren, given that he's still the one in the dominant position, all it did was characterize Poe a bit. He's a rougish Han Solo type, and there's no better way to convey that than through his joke.
>then later on they redo that scene and she beats the ever-loving shit out of him Watch that end fight again. Kylo Ren dominates her the entire fight, until Rey has a "Luke, use the force!" moment and she taps into her powers. Did the non-force sensitive Han randomly coming back to shoot down Vader's TIE fighter in A New Hope diminish his authoritativeness?
>>65022610 You're still thinking in terms of OT-style dominance when it comes to the ruling regime. Think Allies versus Axis, and think of Chamberlain when you think of the Republic. They were appeasers who took their security for granted, while the space Nazis got hold of a nuclear weapon first.
>>65022764 Leia had an excuse for why she was there so she thought she might be able to get out of it, was the princess of an entire planet, and insulted him. Then, as soon as her planet was at risk, she lost all her composure, pleading for them to not do it. Poe, on the other hand, is watching people and fellow soldiers being slaughtered all around him, and he makes a joke, he doesn't insult Kylo, he makes a joke. Sure, it characterizes him, but it does the same for the First Order. In any of the other movies, no one would have ever dared to do such a thing, especially when they knew the potential danger it would put them in.
She runs from him, thinks about the force for a moment, and then beats the shit out of him and is practically ready to execute him before the planet saves Kylo. Han came back because he'd had a change of heart and wanted to be part of something bigger than himself, something better than just being some smuggler. Yes, Vader lost that time, but he wasn't helpless, he escaped, and when he came back he and the Empire were stronger than anything. It would be like if Luke, in the first movie, just thought about the force for a moment, and then beat the shit out of Vader, it'd seem stupid and would make Vader seem far less powerful than he actually was.
>>65022928 I said this to someone else already, but be more concise. I feel like long posts are dick measuring contests, where i'm pressured into making an equally long post because people associate long texts with quality.
As for your first point, it's a distinction that doesn't make much sense. Leia makes the joke after she witnesses numerous rebel solders die, while Poe, thinking that he's dead, has resigned himself to being captured. To compare that to Leia seeing her entire planet about to be blown up doesn't make much sense.
As for your second point, Luke's ability to use the force to blow up the Death Star is at least as sudden. Both films have a particular point where the hero discovers his or her power and uses it to save the day. To create a distinction between Rey (whom the film established early on as a proficient melee fighter) beating an injured guy in a fight and the non-force sensitive Han defeating Vader and letting him escapee as he's helpless in his spinning ship is completely arbitrary. I honestly doubt that you'd bring up this complaint if Rey was played by a male actor.
>>65023138 Why the fuck would they reboot a highly successful and beloved franchise with an enormous universe full of infinite story opportunities? Reboots are for when a series fails so hard that people don't want to see it continued.
>>65023141 Real UN let North Korea keep their Nukes bruh. And they aren't using old nukes, they're making new ones. Your WWII analogy doesn't work because the power and reach of the Empire was a major aspect of that trilogy's political layout.
>>65020594 This is what the opening crawl should have started with, that alone would have made the movie considerably better to watch. It would have even fit with how ANH's crawl was worded, considering they were copying that plot inch for inch I'm surprised they missed something so important.
>>65023196 If you had a strong argument it wouldn't matter.
Firstly, it's an insult, not a joke. Secondly, nice ignoring of the first two points about her situation. Thirdly, Leia was hiding, and again, had excuses. Poe had none and his joke makes it seem like he doesn't consider the Sith a threat, which also makes the audience, who is (most likely) rooting for Poe, consider the First Order less of a threat because of it. Lastly, I brought up the planet part because Leia immediately backed down when she heard the threat, she didn't start making jokes about firing the laser or anything.
>"Used to bulls-eye womprats about the same size!" >"just like beggar's canyon back home" Luke already had experience in both aspects of the trench run. The force helped, but he had the experience going in. Rey fights with a staff and then uses a sword for the first time to beat a trained swordsman who was dominating the entire time until she thought about the force for, 30-60 seconds, then she destroyed him without a single mistake. Lastly, Han had more on his mind than chasing down one man, Vader or not, you know, the Death Star? Lastly, yes, Vader was beaten, then he came back, captured Han, cut off Luke's hand, and got back to work leading his armies and re-building the Death Star.
I honestly doubt you'd defend this if Rey was played by a male actor. Sounds like a stupid assumption to make, don't it?
>>65023367 >everyone was lying to themselves about it being good, Why would they do it for this film but not the prequels? Why would half of the internet complain endlessly about the movie? Why would the audiences both times I saw the film love it?
>>65023466 >If you had a strong argument it wouldn't matter. No, it fucking does matter. People assume that short posts are lazy, while long, essay-like posts are well-argued and articulate. I'm drunk and tired and I don't feel like typing out long, detailed responses.
Your first argument is boring. Poe's joke not being an insult actually detracts from what you're saying. An insult would diminish the implicit threat of the First Order, while a tongue-in-cheek joke only articulates Poe's lack of fear in the situation, and his general personality.
>Leia immediately backed down when she heard the threat She also jokes around with Luke and Han after her people have been genocided. Arguing about how emotionally realistic a scenario in Star Wars is is beyond boring.
>Luke already had experience in both aspects of the trench run. Rey beating an injured and emotionally distressed guy in a sword fight after the film establishes that she's a melee fighter is somehow less believable than someone hitting a small target without the aid of their targeting computers while moving at super sonic speeds? No. And you concede that Han defeated Vader, but somehow Vader is allowed to come back and be even more threatening, but Kylo isn't? Be consistent.
>I honestly doubt you'd defend this if Rey was played by a male actor. We already had Anakin Skywalker. People hated him because he was a kid and poorly acted, not because he was too powerful.
>>65023729 Well, that's more your problem than mine. Sorry you don't feel coherent enough to type out detailed responses.
An insult implies anger, dislike, wanting to hurt the person or thing you're insulting. A joke is a smart remark, a reply to tease or annoy the other person. An insult would show that Poe had a real hatred for the First Order, and it's show that there's some reason to hate them. A joke makes it seem like he doesn't care about them and that they're something to be made fun of. Han was also a rogue, but he'd try to talk and bluff his way out of a scenario, he wouldn't make a joke about Jabba having a translator or some stupid shit like that.
Oh wow, she has fun with her friends after escaping from the space nazis. Every time the Empire appeared, that shit turned grim real fast.
>Luke: Actually has done the thing he's doing before many times, has slight help from the force, but otherwise, all him >Rey: Has only slightly related training in an aspect of the thing that's happening, but still beats the powerful, trained Sith at every aspect of his fucking existence Also, yes, Han defeated Vader, no one dared to go after him, we see him fly off just fine, he comes back later and wrecks house, and we discover that there's another, ready-to-go super weapon that he's working on, and also, aside from the one moment where he gets knocked into space moments before the Death Star explodes, he's in power the entire time otherwise. Kylo is only ever in power about three times or so in the movie, and even then, they get weakened at the end near-consistently.
So, people had plenty of reasons to hate him, and he was a flawed character, aside from him being space Jesus. It's nice to know Rey has so little going on that the only thing people have to talk about her is her mary sue-tier bullshit.
>its not good >but its fun! >just turn your brain off >its great for what it is It actually makes me physically sick I have to share a board with these brainwashed pleb normies that eat whatever garbage the jews feed them.
>>65024164 It legitimately makes me physically sick as well, not exaggerating. For all these people to completely ignore what has made Star Wars last all these years... its very sad. And ignore the awful chars because they are PC
>Harry Potter Has to rely on his friends, teachers, acquaintances, and even foes to save his ass constantly, and only survives encounters with his "enemy" since his mother sacrificed herself to save him
>Spiderman Have you ever read a spiderman comic book or seen a spiderman movie? He has literally killed his girlfriend with radioactive splooge.
>>65024087 >Sorry you don't feel coherent enough to type out detailed responses. What does this even mean? I'm being perfectly coherent, I just don't feel particularly eager to write paragraphs arguing with someone about the believability of a movie with space wizards. It's pointless, and all that'll end up happening is that one of us will get fatigued and fall asleep before responding while the thread archives and no one is convinced of the other's view.
>A joke makes it seem like he doesn't care about them and that they're something to be made fun of. If you want to talk about humor at the expense of emotional realism, let's talk about Han's "I know" before heading towards what could end up being his death. It's potentially the last time he sees Leia, and his final words to her are a smarmy joke. But we suspend believability because of what that lines says about his character, and we do the same for Poe for similar reasons. You're treating these films by different standards of believability, which could either be that you're older now and are beginning to notice this stuff, or because you're dredging up nitpicks in order to satisfy some internal sense of rebelliousness that has to find justifications for hating something that's popular.
>no one dared to go after him No one dared go after someone who's completely defenseless and extremely dangerous? Of all the dumb justifications for the OT you've come up with, this is by far the least convincing. Try another one.
>Kylo is only ever in power about three times or so in the movie, and even then, they get weakened at the end near-consistently. He's in power about as much as Vader is in A New Hope. His demeanor is what convinces you otherwise. Also, I don't even accept the premise. A villain doesn't have to be strong in order to be engaging. Iago isn't stronger than Othello.
>It's nice to know Rey has so little going on that the only thing people have to talk about her is her mary sue-tier bullsh Go home, Landis
>>65024145 >>65024206 >>65024388 >indentured servent >starving >alone >nearly dies more than once >gets captured >gets wrecked by Kylo Ren before discovering her powers Take off your fucking sexist blinders, she's not Superman.
>>65024164 >>65024218 I agree with Kermode and the female reviewer for the Guardian, TFA is the only watchable Star Wars film to date. I'm so happy that the children growing up today will view the OT the same way Next Generation viewers viewed the original Star Trek series: fun, campy, but ultimately of a lower quality.
>>65024494 Then you're hardly in a position to complain about it.
That's not a joke. The entirety of the film up until then has been them denying their romance, until the point when, as he's heading towards what could be his death, she admits she loves him and he tells her he knows, implying he's always known, despite how she told him she didn't. They're not even said in a smarmy way. Poe, on the other hand, makes a joke since Kylo is staring at him and he jokes about it. You know who else joked about Vader doing stuff in the OT? Fucking no one, because people actually were afraid of the Sith. Also, I re-watched the OT before seeing the new movie, so your psycho-analysis is pretty shit.
Nice way to ignore everything I said about Vader for that one moment. Also, after he spins, he flies off perfectly fine, in case you needed me to repeat that to you.
>Tell me about the droid >We lost it >*Temper Tantrum, involving a shot of STs seeing it, and just turning around, another joke at the main villain's expense* Or how about >Interrogating Rey >Oh shit she overpowered me >Oh shit, now my boss, and this commander are belittling me, agh I'm so shit at my job Or maybe >I've killed all your friends right in front of you, displayed a power many believe to be a myth, and now, the leader of the huge army with the massive, solar system-destroying super weapon, me, has you >Lol, you're dumb Yeah, Rey sure seems like he's in control and scary so much. Lastly, I never said he needed to be strong to be engaging, I said that the lack of threat and jokes made at the enemy's expense makes the enemy seem impotent, which makes for a pretty shitty enemy.
You brought it up, not me.
>>65024555 Name a single time Rey ever came close to nearly dying. Was it when she fought off four people with ease? Was it when she destroyed a trained Sith? Was it when she overpowered said Sith during an interrogation?
>>65024657 >Luke failing is the indication of a character flaw >Rey getting captured isn't. >Rey's learning the force quickly breaks established lore >Luke and Anakin learning it in a single film doesn't >Han Solo being used for expository dialogue and a surrogate father for Rey is lazy >Obi Wan being used for expository dialogue and a surrogate father for Luke is fine Sexism is the only explanation
>>65024555 >>indentured servent >>starving >>alone >>nearly dies more than once >>gets captured >>gets wrecked by Kylo Ren before discovering her powers
1st. How is repelling and exploring absconded Star Destroyers and competing against other scavengers not an adventure in of itself?
2st, That says nothing about her character. I don't know what she thinks or feels about things beyond basic needs.
3rd. I could give you that but she does not act like a loner. I'm a recluse, I know how we solitary people act.
4th, She's already experienced near death by scavenging. There's no growth for the rest of the film.
5th. What was the take away from her capture? More powers.
6th. She walks away from that fight unscathed. She doesnt grow as a character. She gets wait for it........more powers.
A character isn't forced to "grow" in a movie, some characters stay the same for the whole movie. But Rey isn't that kind of character. Do you care what's shes going to say in a given situation? Is her lines and banter so compelling that you pay money to see? TFA is not a character study, and even if it was then its proof people like you and SJW's dont care about storytelling and cinema that all you want to see is a shallow woman character become powerful for no reason and pretend shes "great".
>>65024657 Things that are canon: >Anakin in Episode I being a better mechanic, pilot, and fighter than Rey at 11 as a slave >Jedi trainees (at 14) leading armies and fighting off other Sith with decades of experience. >Untrained toddlers using force powers untrained
>>65024777 >indentured servent She, like everyone, brought scrap to a scrapyard and was paid for it. You might as well say that the guy in Nightcrawler is an indentured servant.
>starving She looked pretty healthy to me, given her running, jumping, climbing, piloting, fighting, and lack of real signs of hunger in general.
>alone A problem that is immediately solved many times over.
>Nearly dies more than once Please, name a single time.
>gets captured Then overpowers her interrogator, mind controls her guard, and nearly escapes all on her own before she joins up with her friends to help destroy the star killer
>gets wrecked by Kylo Ren before discovering her powers She runs away, blocks his attack, and then destroys him in a style of fighting she has no training in.
>Take off your fucking sexist blinders, she's not Superman. Of course she isn't, she's just left alone on a planet and soon grows up to be extremely good at nearly anything she tries, and becomes one of the strongest being around.
>>65024839 >So in other words you're twelve? >I want the villains of this trilogy to actually be threatening and I want the people who are supposedly fighting a war against them to actually ever seem to care. I want a movie that doesn't feel like a re-hash of the original, one where the actors don't literally make jokes about how similar the movies are. I want a good movie with actual stakes, not a movie where nothing matters and the antagonists are so pathetically pointless that the movie goes out of its way to show the villains making jokes about themselves. The First Order is nearly Drakken in terms of villainy.
>>65024756 What Han said was clearly intended to be humorous, which is why George Lucas wanted to take it out. Yes, it served a narrative purpose, but so did Poe's response to Kylo Ren. It characterizes Poe. Your problem with it, and with every scene involving Kylo Ren, stems from the need for him to be a Darth Vader surrogate. First, the notion that any humor related to his actions is automatically at his expense as a character is a premise that I don't accept. The humor from his first tantrum doesn't stem from his weakness, it stems from the reaction the officer has to Kylo's clear mental instability - a trait that's worth noting. Kylo is portrayed as a school shooter in TFA, which is a very 21st century conception of evil, as opposed to Vader, who is basically an SS officer. Second, I also don't accept the premise that an antagonist needs to present a direct threat at every individual moment to either present an ideological threat, or to be engaging in general. Kylo Ren actually feels like a person, which makes him a much more engaging villain than Vader on almost every level. He's almost more like an anti-protagonist than an antagonist, which is why every 12 year old girl is now in love with Adam Driver: he's pitiful, and represents a sort-of counterbalance to Rey, rather than just something in her way. The idea that Kylo Ren has to be a badass (which he is anyways) in order to be a good villain strikes me as a complete non sequitur. And in a film that's already too similar to A New Hope, lamenting the fact that he isn't anther Darth Vader is a very misguided critique.
>>65025012 I replied to the persons reply. Is that literally all you can come up with to try and discredit my argument?
>>65025051 I'll give you the speeder, but what simulators? I can't recall her training in one a single time in the movie. As for her time spent salvaging, just because she was pulling parts out of imperial ships doesn't mean she knows how to fly an entirely different, near-custom built ship like the Falcon, if that's what you're suggesting. I can pull as many parts out of a plane as I'd like, and drive a motorcycle, doesn't mean I could fly a two-person plane of a different make with, after a few moments, expert handling.
>>65025080 >did anyone notice that every planet looked like earth instead of an alien planet in a galaxy far far away?
If this thought occurred in your mind whilst watching TFA and congratulations you've succeeded in being (at the very least) a competent film goer and not a brain-dead TFA defender.
YES, JJ and crew completely lacked originality or daring. You can still focus on characters and still put them in interesting environments. It's a movie about space, children are more original and daring world builders than the man-child JJ Abrams.
>>65024938 If you don't accept the fact that Rey being captured, tortured, her father figure dying, and her only friend almost dying represents a dramatic low point in her arc, then you haven't seen the film. To say that the film lacks stakes, as governmental systems are being taken out and main characters are dying is patently absurd.
>>65025119 >tantrums over things that actually matter makes you mentally unstable
>Kylo is portrayed as a school shooter in TFA School shooters are autists with very little motivation and hope in life. Kylo Ren is in a pit but still has motivation and still holds on to the possibility that he could still overcome the light side with Snoke's guidance.
>>65025149 what kinda faggot do u take me for? i don't recognize disney saga and never will, shits a fucking joke, no real star wars fan would accept the legitimate rape of the OS chars, events and mythos
>>65025242 >>Moon of Endor didn't just look some some random-ass California forrest This is about the TFA >>Jakku not being as alien as Tattooine If you're going to bring up "Californian red woods" than Jakku is just Tunisa. Oh that doesn't work out for when I try to same trick on you does it? >>the water planet at the end looking like anything in the previous films I must of missed this "water planet" you speak off. I thought Takodana was a forest planet and Maz Kanata's castle was near a pond. I mean I've never a planet in the SW films that have trees and water.
If the Empire Strikes Back came out today everyone here would hate it. They'd bitch about how few questions it answers, how it doesn't have a resolution, how Yoda's force powers breaks the lore by allowing Jedi to be powerful enough to control ships, how C3PO is fucking annoying, how Han and Leia's relationship is rushed, how Yoda looked fake, etc.
>>65025119 Except when you watch the movie, there's no hint of a wry smirk, no grin, no funny inflection to his voice, he stares at her and tells her he knows. Just because Lucas wanted to take out a good line doesn't make it a joke. It's also entirely within Han's character to respond that way. Poe's response characterizes him, and it shows that, when faced against one of the most powerful members of the First Order, if not one of the most powerful people in existence at the time, he doesn't care or find him a real threat.
Again with the analysis. He doesn't need to be Vader, what I want is a villain who people are actually threatened by, one who actually commands respect. If no one is afraid, or even seems to care about the existence of your villain, he hardly seems like much of a threat at all, and when he's the only one, that makes the stakes drop since I don't feel like the characters feel threatened, or like there's any real drama to these situations.
The humor matters because if they showed Kylo smashing shit and threatening his soldiers, that'd leave a, "Whoa, this guys pretty crazy, and pretty dangerous" As soon as the troopers act like this is some everyday activity and the best thing to do is a 180 out of there, it diminishes that sudden outburst of rage and hatred. Imagine if when Luke was beating Vader into submission in ep 6, and when Vader's down on the ground, he goes, "Man, I've really got to HAND it to you, Luke". It'd ruin the moment and diminish all meaning to the scene.
Sure, Kylo's unstable, but don't have his own troops acting like he's some child who needs some space, it just makes him seem more childish than anything else.
They don't have to present a threat at every moment, but they have to actually present some threat at some point, otherwise they just seem like a joke themselves. Vader was a weird SS officer who commanded respect, and then he regained his humanity at the end, showing a side we'd never seen before. 1/2
>>65025267 It is a bullshit complaint, as it is in ANH. Basically there are very few Jedi in the galaxy and unless you lived on Coruscant then it is unlikely they would ever be anything more to you than myth and folk tales told to you by some guy who met some guy who's mum fucked a guy who was the uncle to a sister of a woman's auntie that traded her droid for a biscuit made by a guy who once saw a jedi
>>65025119 >>65025388 2/2 Again, I never said he had to be a badass. What I said was that if he doesn't ever really present an actual threat, and is constantly beaten and humiliated, then it makes people see him as a non-threat who is constantly beaten and humiliated. Sure, he's pitiful and is the weak, unsure counter to Rey, but if that's the way the big, supposedly-threatening villain is, it hardly makes him seem like a threat, or something to be worried about, at all.
Lastly, once more, I'm not annoyed he isn't Vader, I'm annoyed he's not really much of a villain at all, which means that the entire movie, the heroes are going up against...not much of anything, really.
>>65025196 She gets captured, isn't tortured, she immediately becomes stronger in the force than Kylo, a man she's known for literally half a day gets killed, and her only friend is knocked out. If that's the entire low point, the minute or so it takes her to escape, stronger than before, and then the minute or so when she sees a man she's literally known for a few hours, get killed, then that's not much of a low point at all.
If the stakes are a bunch of planets we know almost nothing about are destroyed, and one person dies, then those are pretty small, and shitty stakes. They literally are cracking jokes about the big weapon and how similar it is to the ones before it in the previous movies.
>>65025388 >Just because Lucas wanted to take out a good line doesn't make it a joke. Lucas wanted to take it out because audiences laughed. It's clearly intended to be humorous.
>If no one is afraid, or even seems to care about the existence of your villain, Which isn't the case. Poe isn't the only character in the film. Rey is clearly frightened of him, as are his inferiors. Poe is the exception.
>The humor matters because if they showed Kylo smashing shit and threatening his soldiers, that'd leave a, "Whoa, this guys pretty crazy, and pretty dangerous" As soon as the troopers act like this is some everyday activity and the best thing to do is a 180 out of there, it diminishes that sudden outburst of rage and hatred. You have a clear misunderstanding of basic subtext. The Stormstroopers turning around doesn't diminish Kylo's anger, it turns it into something quotidian, which is good characterization. You understand that that wasn't just a momentary outburst, but an indication of Kylo's general mental instability through that one scene alone. A perfect example of showing instead of telling. Yes it was funny, but so was the "I know" line, and, unlike that line, it's at least believable.
>but they have to actually present some threat at some point Killing main characters, almost killing others, blowing up planets. Yeah, they aren't clear and present threats because Kylo Ren sometimes gets mad.
>>65025123 I don't think you know how Star Wars works. A mechanic can fix anything, a pilot pilots anything, and death might be real or you could come back with spider legs. The simulator is in supplemental media (probably cut), and Rey says she can pilot. She's not allowed to pilot the Falcon with Han until Chewie gets hurt.
Hell, how can Poe use a very specialized TIE fighter? How can Finn use the Falcon's gun?
which in itself is kinda ironic, since after the prequel disaster, being a star wars movie should be something that's more of a handicap than anything else, in my opinion star wars as a franchise has to earn my trust again, with all the animated shit that's being put out.
And the movie still didn't win me over, maybe the next one does, but at the moment I'm still of the opinion that this movie didn't need to exist, a lot of story points and implications just left a bad taste in my mouth and kind of ruined the original trilogy ending
>>65025538 >Again, I never said he had to be a badass. What I said was that if he doesn't ever really present an actual threat, and is constantly beaten and humiliated, then it makes people see him as a non-threat who is constantly beaten and humiliated. What you wanted was a simplistic, domineering, 12 year old's conception of frightening. Whether or not Kylo represents an obstacle to the protagonists is entirely irrelevant as to whether or not the film presents him as threatening. He kills a protagonist and badly injures another. He represents a threat by nearly every standard. He isn't some enervate Richard II type character. The film just deliberately portrays him as emotionally vulnerable despite his physical strength. He's the best villain in the entire series because he's actually a character, not an idea, or a threatening black suit. Having him remove his mask to reveal the fact that he's just a kid was a brilliant twist on Darth Vader's reveal at the end of Jedi: Kylo isn't evil incarnate like Snoke is, he's a power but confused child. He's an ISIS convert.
>>65025538 >She gets captured, isn't tortured, she immediately becomes stronger in the force than Kylo, a man she's known for literally half a day gets killed, and her only friend is knocked out. If that's the entire low point, the minute or so it takes her to escape, stronger than before, and then the minute or so when she sees a man she's literally known for a few hours, get killed, then that's not much of a low point at all. She gets captured, IS tortured (watch the film again), doesn't become stronger than Kylo Ren until the very end of the film, her father figure (whom the audience likes) dies, her only friend (whom the audience likes) almost dies, and she's knocked out. Wanting the stakes to be even higher is fucking ridiculous.
>>65025566 Well when Kylo is the enforcer going around, and we see Snoke 3-4 times, Kylo's the villain in the movie for the moment.
>>65025604 If it's supposed to be a joke, then I think it's a fairly stupid argument to say he wanted to remove it because the joke made people laugh. Plus, Leia even makes a joke about it later on when he says I love you to her, and she replies with, I know.
Rey is threatened by him about twice. The first time she then immediately overpowers him, and the second time she then immediately overpowers him. Finn is scared at times, until he decides to literally fight him multiple times, or takes great joy in thinking about tossing Phasma in the trash. Han isn't threatened by him, his own subordinates are there to be used to make jokes about him, and his teacher and the commanding officer both belittle and humiliate him.
Yes, it can be used for that, but the entire reason for having them there is to go, "Whoop, boss is having another tantrum, lets just not go down this hallway and go another way. Sure, it can be an indication of his instability, but that doesn't mean that him being unstable makes him threatening or anything, and following up a scene of rage and anger with a joke kills the mood. At least the, "I know" line doesn't look like it's only put there to be a gag, and it is a believable thing to say for said character.
They kill one person, and they blow up a few planets that we had absolutely no reason to care about until that point, and had little-to-no reason to care about after. Guess what, the fact that the First Order is defeated at each and every thing they do, if not beaten at the things only they are supposed to be good at, shows them to not really be much of a threat, again and again.
>A mechanic can fix anything Are you stating this on a baseless thought? Han Solo a pilot with enough mechanical knowledge to know his ship has problems, problems he knows specifically to give Chewie, R2, Leia, 3PO orders to fix specific components can not fix his own ship.
> come back with spider legs While it's cool, Maul's return is basically fan-service and should not become the norm.
>The simulator is in supplemental media It should never be another writers job to make the poor decision making of another make sense. Every terrible movie and decision can be justified by EU according to this apology you stated
>Poe use a very specialized TIE fighter Disney calls it "special forces TIE-fighter" but its not. Also its justifiable cuz the opening crawl states hes "the Resistance greatest pilot". The crawl gives enough backstory to pass Poe along as someone who can fly one due to his war experience and crawl seems to be written by the Omnipotent force who knows all and tells us what we need to know
>How can Finn use the Falcon's gun? Thats racist. Are you saying you can't believe a Black male cant press two buttons?
>>65025872 >no one is taking kylo ren serious as a villain. There are literally articles in mainstream publications about him being the best villain in the series, kids are dressing up as him, and nearly every review calls Driver's performance one of the best aspects of the film. He's a successful character.
>since he's constantly getting his ass handed by the main protagonist >constantly That's a weird way to spell "once."
>>65025751 What I want is someone who isn't beaten at every turn, and especially so at the things he's actually good at, constantly belittled, mocked, and humiliated, and then has to be saved by a planet cracking in half, as well as two of his bosses. Also, did you actually say it doesn't matter whether or not the main villain is actually an obstacle or not to the protagonists? Holy hell, it doesn't matter if there's actually something to struggle against? It doesn't matter how twisted and fucked up he's portrayed if no one takes him seriously, and he's never actually an obstacle or a threat.
>>65025834 He forces his mind into hers for a moment before she completely overpowers him with the force and he has to go tell his boss she overpowered him with the force, and then she does it again later, but with lightsabers as well. The man she knew for half a day dies, and her fried gets, what, cut and stabbed, and then knocked out, and she beats the shit out of the villain after. Those aren't stakes, she's never at risk, she always wins without the help of anyone else.
>>65025882 >I think it's a fairly stupid argument to say he wanted to remove it because the joke made people laugh Lucas wanted to remove it because he felt that a joke would've been inappropriate at that particulate moment, not because it was unsuccessful. Nice try, though.
>The first time she then immediately overpowers him, and the second time she then immediately overpowers him. Like the time where she's completely dominated and taken hostage by Ren? Or the time she's thrown against a tree and knocked out? Again, watch the film.
>that doesn't mean that him being unstable makes him threatening or anything, and following up a scene of rage and anger with a joke kills the mood. It's much less of a joke than Han's "I know," it fleshes out Kylo's relationship to his staff, and articulates Kylo's instability. It's one of the most successful minor scenes in the film.
>They kill one person A really mild way of putting the fact that they killed a main character.
>Guess what, the fact that the First Order is defeated at each and every thing they do, How can you misinterpret the film this much? The point of the First Order is that it's succeeding where the Empire failed. It took out the Republic for good, it killed almost all the Jedi, and is already on its way to taking over the galaxy by the end of the film.
>>65025981 Fuck off. Kylo Ren isn't beaten at every turn, he isn't humiliated or mocked. Did you watch the fucking movie? He kills main characters. The way he's filmed, at low and dutch angles, does a good job of imparting a sense of unease whenever he's around.
>did you actually say it doesn't matter whether or not the main villain is actually an obstacle or not to the protagonists? I said it's irrelevant as to whether or not the film presents him as threatening. A character can be an obstacle, but ridiculous. Or serious, but useless. They're two different criteria.
>no one takes him seriously If no one took him seriously his officer wouldn't be frightened of him and the stormstoopers would just walk by.
>>65026102 Alright, still doesn't change my mind that it's funny. It makes sense for his character to say something like that, and with how their relationship was, it works as well.
Ah yes, he force freezes her, makes her fall asleep, and then carefully carries her onto his ship. He then goes to extract information from her and she completely overpowers him in the force. Yes, then later on she gets knocked out, fights poorly, and then she destroys him, and might even have just killed him had the planet not cracked into pieces.
It's still a blatant joke, and if we're going on what audiences found funny, the audience I was in was laughing when the guards turned around, which is quite the bizarre shift from silence while Kylo rages. Yeah, it shows his relationship to his staff, people think he's a nutjob and try to avoid him.
They killed an old man who was pretty much only there to provide a link for Rey to the rest of the cast, and then to get killed talking to Kylo. If they'd killed Finn or Rey, that'd be quite the reveal, but no, they kill the Obi Wan of this movie, not that much of a shocker.
Wait, you mean the group that lost a massive, costly weapon, thousands of soldier and weapons and vehicles, didn't find out where their mortal enemy is, and actually gave the enemy another, very powerful jedi? Yeah, they sure seem successful. They literally have done less than the Empire did in the OT.
>>65026199 Except when both of his bosses go, wow, you lost the map? You fucking piece of shit, you're so useless. Wow, she overpowered you in something she shouldn't even know about? Wow, she also beat you at sword fighting? Guess I'll send the car around to pick your worthless ass up, Kylo.
Well then if you just want to talk about threatening or being taken seriously, see my sentence above this one.
Ah yes, pardon me, his brain-dead soldiers try to avoid getting caught up in his temper tantrum once, and then otherwise never really interact with him.
>>65026254 It was one person who's entire character was basically meant to be this movies Obi Wan. He's old and busted and Kylo kills him, and then gets the shit beat out of him right after. Congrats, he killed an old guy and didn't actually manage to stop anything, and only made his enemies stronger.
>>65026322 Vader didn't really want to fight him, and Luke was tapping into the dark side, using his rage and anger to fuel his strength. Combine the two, and yeah, Vader went down, though it wasn't really a fight, one guy didn't want to fight and the other was hopped up on the force momentarily.
>>65026421 Rey doesn't "overpower" him in the force. She blocks his mind-reading. If anything it represents her as an equal at that moment, not a superior. And yes, we've established that she's able to beat an injured guy in a fight. How unbelievably banal.
As for Kylo's guard's, complaining about tonal shifts is fine. Shakespeare does it, and if some people can't handle it when it comes to his tragedies they sure as hell won't be able to handle it when it comes to JJ. I had no problem with it because I understood what that scene meant, but some people aren't able to experience different emotions in quick succession, which is a completely subjective thing. That being said, you can't deny that it served a purpose. Not only did it articulate the relationship between Kylo and his staff, it was among the many moments of the film that actually humanized stormstooper - which is something this film does better than any other film in the series.
>They killed an old man who was pretty much only there to provide a link for Rey to the rest of the cast, When you're minimizing the death of Han Solo to "they just killed some old guy" you know you're losing the argument. They also nearly killed Finn, which is more than I expected.
>They literally have done less than the Empire did in the OT. They literally defeated the Republic in one fell swoop. They're far, far more successful than the Empire ever was.
>>65026623 Yes, he's using his force power to almost physically break into her mind, and then she pushes against his power, actually managing to force him out and keep him from getting the map, to the point where he has to go tell his two bosses about it and they belittle him for getting her if he can't get the information from her. Then later on, he just decides not to use any force powers on her, and then, after taking a moment, she suddenly is able to beat him down without taking a single blow, knocking him to the ground and, if not for the planet splitting into pieces, she probably would have killed him then and there. It's a little more than banal.
While you might have gotten a deeper meaning out of it, it seems like it's only there as a joke, and since none of his troopers ever act worried or afraid in his presence before or after that point, it doesn't do much more than that. Also, the storm troopers in this are barely humanized, they're literally brainwashed child soldiers. In the OT, they actually talked to one another and acted like humans.
I never dismissed Solo as "some old guy", I said that his entire role in this movie was pretty much solely to be a reincarnation of Obi Wan, and to give Rey something to link her to the rest of the cast. Yes, it's Han Solo, but apparently he hasn't even been relevant in the SW universe for quite a while after the OT. They also nearly killed Kylo, which is more than I expected.
And in the OT and the Prequels, they rule near-everything instead. Palpatine literally takes over the republic and rules it for around two decades. The First Order comes from the ashes, blows up some planets, and then seemingly loses almost everything, don't find Luke, AND gives their opponents a new jedi. Yeah, they're on a real roll.
>>65026831 >Then later on, he just decides not to use any force powers on her, He force throws her. Why am I wasting time discussing this with someone who's clearly unable to recall the most basic narrative details?
>While you might have gotten a deeper meaning out of it, it seems like it's only there as a joke, Death of the author, regardless of what was intended if you can argue that's something is there then it's there. Also, people who make films think about this stuff. No frame isn't deliberated over. They don't waste money filming that scene if it didn't serve a proper function.
>In the OT, they actually talked to one another and acted like humans. What utter fucking nonsense. This film went out of its way to humanize them. We have a lead character who's a former stormtrooper, a lead character who fights a stormtrooper one-on-one and almost loses, we hear them call out the lead for being a traitor. To compare this to a single scene of smalltalk is absurd.
>I said that his entire role in this movie was pretty much solely to be a reincarnation of Obi Wan, and to give Rey something to link her to the rest of the cast. That's his plot function. That doesn't discount the emotional weight of his death at all. He's still a beloved lead character who dies.
>And in the OT and the Prequels, they rule near-everything instead. You're viewing the Empire in the OT from the perspective of a group that is already in power. The First Order rose from nothing to kill nearly all the Jedi and take out the entire Republic in an instant. Real losers.
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