>Three guys we don't care about are fighting each other over… something
So, using Plinkett's logic about lightsaber fights, what was this one about? Whats the 'internalisation' of their actions? What are the stakes? Why is that even happening? How did Rey recome a master jedi instantly, did she read the script?
RLM hypocrisy general
Klyo Ren wants to kill Rey and Finn for being in the forest.
Finn wants to avenge Han's death and impress his qt
Rey wants to not die in the forest and ends up winning for no reason.
The ground opens up in an unrealistic way to separate the two combatants because the writers were too fucking high to write a better conclusion.
Ren was chasing them because he was the bad guy and the other two were running because they were the good guys I suppose? There's that thing with the map to Luke (fucking retarded by itself) but at that point it was pretty much forgotten by everyone.
Even the fight between Finn and the tonfa guy felt more emotional.
The movie doesn't explicitly state a LOT. You have to read between the lines, and that's hard for /tv/ to do. Rey and Kylo obviously have some kind of relationship. And Kylo just killed her father-figure. There, OP. Are you happy?
In this fight we as an audience learn that:
1) Finn is not force sensitive and is not going to be a Jedi, so it basically designates him to a non Jedi role, which confirms what the audience was speculating prior
2) reaffirms that Kylo Ren isnt some big bad but just an angry child who seems to have a grudge against Rey and wants his grandpas light saber
3) Reveals Rey as being force sensitive, which adds to the mystery of her character and makes us wonder how she can do this, and what her connection to Kylo Ren is
Other than those, its also a pretty entertaining fight in that none of these 3 characters seems to know how to use a light saber until Rey at the very end. Now a lot of people find that to be bad writing, but imo its meant to make us question as to whether or not Rey did have training as a child, and makes us speculate on her character more so so that the next movie will answer those questions.
It's probably my 3rd favorite fight in the series. Empire and Return's are just much better, but this one still has a lot going on in it. A lot of little mini revelations and questions brought up.
>adds to the mystery of her character
if they wanted to highlight that there's mystry behind her, and the fact that she can use the force is because of some stuff we haven't seen yet they literally did it in the worst possible way because they don't ever acknowledge that she shouldn't be able to do the shit she does
They've been going downhill for a while now. Mike got famous off his Plinkett reviews and now he's just coasting with half-assed "analysis" and le-look-at-camera-with-a-funny-face.
I never felt the need to acknowledge it personally because I know enough about Star Wars to know that her using the force is a big deal.
I mean they kind of DO show that when Kylo Ren tries to mind rape her and she resists and fights back and hes like "how are you doing this" and he goes to cry to Gollum and he is like "if thats true bring her to me"
It makes it clear that she has some sort of hidden power, also Leah hugging her at the end and that old pumpkin looking alien asking Han "Who's the girl" also make it clear that there is something about Rey the audience purposefully isnt told.
>ren, who has been established as having issues with becoming irrationally angry, is intent on chasing down and killing a) the traitor stormtrooper that took the map from him and basically started all the shit in the movie, caused him to look like a fool in front of hux and snoke, and b) the force sensitive girl who was the last key to the map to luke, established throughout the whole fucking movie as something everyone's desperately looking for, also "you need a teacher"
>snoke orders him some 15 minutes earlier in the film "BRING ME THE GIRL"
>finn: "i'm just here to get rey", distraught from seeing ren murder han, overcomes his fear of ren/the first order to protect his waifu
>rey wanting to escape after being abducted and tortured, maybe trying not to die on a planet they are assisting in destroying
ITT: "i'm dense and also i didn't watch the movie"
there are a million films where that happens
Instead they do the opposite, where Kylo isn't surprised by Rey's use of the force and implies that she's only going to become more powerful.
>THERE'S BEEN AN AWAKENING, THE DARK AND THE LIGHT
>Right after this scene Kylo whines about how Snoke senses light in him
Gee, I wonder who woke up the darkness? The Force user who's been marooned on Jakku for over a decade, perhaps?
The dark certainly
Ben Solo wants Anakin's lightsaber. If you haven't noticed, he worships Vader.
Rey wants to avenge her father figure Han who just died.
Finn liked Han for saving life so he was also mad at Ben.
>Rey wants to avenge her father figure Han who just died.
>Finn liked Han for saving life so he was also mad at Ben.
you mean xir Rey C. Mixer I need no man I can handle myself and nig nog I only here for da white woman.
>all characters have personal stake in the fight (Rey just watched her mentor die, Kylo Ren wants to prove himself as a better force user than Rey, Finn wants to protect Rey and get back at the First Order as represented by Kylo Ren)
>Darth Maul is not even a character, Qui Gon is just fighting him because that's just how it goes between Sith and Jedi, Obi Wan is the only one who gets emotionally involved and that's at the very end
>the good and noble Resistance is fighting the genocidal First Order, which is a simple and powerful scenario which audiences can instantly understand and fitting for a fantasy movie about good versus evil
>a bureaucracy is fighting a trade federation over some tax disputes
prequelfags pls go
One thing I wondered is how does Kylo even know that's Luke's saber? "That saber...it belongs to me" But why? There's nothing in film to indicate he knows whose saber it is, did the force tell him in his mind?
>mfw just recently rewatched RLM's prequel reviews
Someone needs to cut it up and impose what they say on top of TFA's scenes. Fucking hypocrites, just about every single criticism they had about the prequels was a problem in the newest movie as well.
>So, using Plinkett's logic about lightsaber fights, what was this one about?
I'll answer this seriously, even though this board is rapidly descending into a shithole of bait threads and contrarian faggotry:
>Kylo: needs to recapture Rey, whose mysterious abilities he feels are critical to his development as a Sith lord, and at the least, a dangerous adversary if he doesn't stop her
>Rey: needs to escape and complete her new goal in life, fulfilling Maz Kanata's suggestion on locating Luke and bringing him over to the Resistance
>Finn: wants to protect his waifu/friend Rey, and continue his TRAITOR!ous stand against Kylo and the First Order, who likely stole him away from his (murdered?) family
She lights up with joy when he asks her to come along with him on adventures. Seeing as how she's been abandoned her whole life and how Han seems like the closeset anyone's taken interest in her in years, I'm sure she'd be upset for someone to kill him. It's not perfect and the pacing feels weird but it's there and it's logical
Rey was angry at Kylo for killing Solo and generally being a dick. Kylo was angry at Rey because he's generally just a dick. Finn wanted that Rey booty so he got involved too.
Not much to go on but still better than the Darth Maul fight.
I love it when they bitch about fully cgi characters and mocked George if he directed the LOTR and made Gandalf a fully cg character.
Hey RLM there's no reason why Snoke needs to be cg, he is a humanoid character that could easily be done with an actor and make up.
Fucking overrated hacks.
its not just the details but the way everything is presented, I actually felt emotion when the x-wings appear because up to that point we'd only heard rumours about the resistance and we'd seen how ruthless and powerful the first order is and it felt like nothing would stop them. Even the storm troppers had some weight to them which is something that only ever happened in the opening minutes of a new hope before they faded away into incompetence
He was still right about everything else.
Rey is fighting for revenge for Han Solos death and basically just to survive against Kylo so she can get off the planet before it blows the fuck up.
That would require static camera shots or at least very carefully orchestrated camera matching to pull off, and JJ can't go five seconds without moving the camera around like he's filming a tennis tournament.
The line about nostalgia imagery immediately comes to mind.
Not necessarily a bad thing as a concept itself, but it felt forced in this movie. Especially the fucking trench run in the end where Poe literally says WATCH OUT FOR THOSE TOWERS
>they didn't kill carrie fisher and save us from her acting
the movies only real flaw
>plot of delivering BB8
Rey, Finn, and Han all involved
>plot of finding Luke
Rey is the only one that cares, and she only cares for half a minute until the end of the flick
>plot of stopping Starkiller Base
Finn explicitly says he doesn't care, and Rey doesn't even know that they're on it.
>plot of rescuing Rey
Finn and Han care but they barely tell anyone else
>plot of stopping Kylo
Han's the only one that knows this one and no one else becomes invested in it
meanwhile in A New Hope...
>plot of rescuing Leia
Luke, Ben, and Han all care (eventually)
>plot of blowing up Death Star
Everyone+Leia cares a lot
I hear you man.
TFA characters are just way more solid overall and that makes all the difference in the world. Prequel characters just don't feel like real people. It's not JUST the bad acting - some of it derives from a conscious decision to present the movies like plays and myths with every character being a tragic demigod
it's nearly impossible to give a damn. Obi Wan is the only remotely relatable character in all three movies
It shows the rath and relentless anger in Kylo Ren. You can see this in his lightsaber's strange beam and in him hurting himself just to keep on going.
You also get an arc moment for Finn where he decides to fight instead of just running away frightened like he had been for most of the movie. You get the outward thing of him not being a jedi but that also shows us he's frightened and shaky despite his determination to not be so.
Rey however is just a mary sue.
Still considerably better than the prequels
TFA has it's issues but what it aims to do it does right. It's good enough in sending off the old characters while introducing the new ones and that's what the franchise needed to have in a reboot. Anyone who thinks this movie should be anything more than a starting point to go off of is an idiot that doesn't realize that context matters.
Darth Maul's mission was to murder Qui Gon not the queen.
Darth Maul completed his mission by removing Annakins' father figure in Qui Gon and the one man who could prevent annakin from his eventual fall.
Im sorry mate but seeing qui gon killed while obi wan is stuck between the shields was a insane moment. Notice how maul elbows qui gon then stabs him?
Meanwhile kylo ren and rey swingf once lock lightsabers and stand still for 3 minutes while Rey has her eyes closed and kylo is doing fuck all
How do you think Grandpa Skywalker would react to Ben's bullcrap?
So the stakes for the characters are more complex in TFA's ending. That's hardly a problem when it all comes pretty intuitively to people with normal emotions. Yeah, obviously Finn cares most about Rey, and Rey cares most about Han's death, and Han cares most about saving his son... like did you have to think about this for a while?
>Hayden Force Ghost
Robert Shaw or fuck off
Why does ret being a mary sue matter.
I, for one, would love to have the sequels establish just how better rey is than kylo ren is every possible way. Ren's character should focus on how he deals with failure as someone who aspires to be as great as darth vader, and rey's character should focus not on the journey of how she grows stronger, but how she makes decisions welding the power she has. Being a jedi doesn't mean being the strongest being in the universe, but by learning about self control and doing the right thing. This is something she should get into conflict about when she gets the chance to kill kylo. Her choices should define her arc, not her skills.
>jay on into darkness: "I was worried that after Vulcan being destroyed in the last film, planets were going to be blowing up everywhere"
>mike on how stupid the next star trek sequel will be after Into Darkness: "It'll have a borg cube that is the size of a planet"
>The Glib Facsimile Awakens has a planet sized Death Star and 6 planets explode in the film
Woah. What a consistent opinion they have.
But that's useless background trivia. The audience doesn't know and is in fact never told. It doesn't make the scene more engaging by the slightest bit. I'll agree with you that Qui Gon's death scene was pretty good - the fight itself isn't bad at all, the soundtrack is amazing, the setting is cool, I even like the ridiculous overcoreographed moves - but plotwise we're watching robots fighting over nothing, characters we barely care about and who don't even know each other fighting for overly complex and utterly boring reasons
Eh I really dont like that, are some lightsabers greater than others? And before Rey enters Maz's room the door lock just opens. Did the saber did that? That makes me mad if it did.
You're right. It bugs though that he is psychic, I remember how he knew Finn's stromtrooper name before the computer could pull it up. Something about that just seems wrong to me and in a cynical way I feel he has that power because of lazy script writing.
From which point of view do want? In terms of Kylo's motivation for chasing them, it aint really rocket surgery. In the first Act, Kylo fucks up when he sees Finn having doubts but doesn't do anything about it, which leads to Finn and Poe escaping. In the second Act, Kylo fucks up by trying to mind rape Rey, inadvertently "awakening" her force awareness and allowing her to escape. After both of these fuckups, we see him react by having temper tantrums and destroying things. They are his 2 biggest fuck ups in the entire story, and he has a lot of emotion invested in fixing his mistakes. Upon fighting Rey, he realizes how powerful she is and tries to recruit her.
From Rey and Finn's perspective, this asshole has been making their life hell the entire time, and just murdered their mentor, his own father, right in front of them. They're all mad at each other based off of what happened over the course of the entire plot of the film.
Their emotional and practical motivations for fighting each other are clear and earned. He wants to capture/kill the traitor and recruit the Jedi; they want that not to happen, and have their own desires for vengeance.
On the contrary, Plinkett was referring to Darth Maul fighting Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. They had JUST met. They had had zero interaction before this fight. Either side's actions had not really affected the other's in any way throughout the entire plot of the film. Neither side has any emotional motivation to be willing to fight to death over personal beefs, much less having any real reason to think that fighting to death is necessary strategically for that matter. They just DO, because the movie needed a sword fight, and that was the only reason Maul was there.
Do you actually not understand these things, or is this like a writing exercise for you?
>yeah the third death star is kind of stupid
>but it acts as a setting for the actual focus of the plot, which is Rey and Finn vs Kylo
They address that its dumb, but not dumb enough to bring the flick down.
>Why does ret being a mary sue matter.
Because it makes for a shit narrative for a shit movie when the protagonist is basically god the entire time.
See the Matrix trilogy. The first movie is a perfect character arc, the next two are universally reviled schlock.
>but not dumb enough to bring the flick down
it gets awfully close, they could at least have not destroyed it, is there gonna be another fourth death star that eats galaxies to power a laser that destroys the universe?
I want to murder the fat studio fuck who forced that shit in there
Vader was also psychic. Luke and Leia had psychic connections in the second 2 movies of the OT. The prequels were full of "psychic" force power.
Kylo new Finn's prefix and number because he had noted his distaste for slaughtering unarmed people during the attack in the beginning of the film. He knew that dude wasn't on board, so when he learned that one escaped, he was able to guess which one it was. It's actually pretty fucking good writing. It explains a lot of Kylo's frustrations as he smashes things during his tantrum. He's pissed at himself for not doing something about the dude when he should have.
>because it's shit
That's not really an argument.
You don't need characters to start from the bottom to make them relatable, it helps, but it's not a requirment. As long as they(and I mean all characters, not just rey) have relatable conflicts and decisions, it should be just fine.
What would rey decide if given the chance to kill kylo
How far would kylo go to get stronger
Can rey even handle making hard decisions
What happens if rey actually loses
What happens if rey decodes to give to the dark side
These are all decisions that show character interest that can be used as a base for a narrative that have NOTHING TO do with relative skill.
Also, you're assuming she'll continue to be a mary sue throughout a clearly planned trilogy.
why can't all prequelfags just pin this into their fridges? so before anything else they are actually suck back into reality?
the force awakens amirite?
Finn wanted to defend Rey who he was beta orbiting
Rey wanted to avenge Han who she'd grown close to
Kylo was extremely emotionally distressed after killing his own father and wanted to regain control by capturing Rey and taking her to Snooki
meanwhile what was the motivation for the final fight with Darth Maul? "well we have lightsabers... he has lightsabers... everyones fighting... guess we'll take him"
fucking stop it with these memes you TFA memeing fucks
the only thing going on in that fight was kylo being an edgelord and wanting to fuck shit up
both rey and finn at that point were trying to fucking escape and that's all they did the ENTIRE MOVIE
their only motivation was fucking self preservation FOR THE ENTIRE MOVIE
>can rey even handle making hard decisions
Doesn't matter when she's always right.
>what happens if rey actually loses
Doesn't matter when she always wins.
>what happens if rey decides to go to the dark side
Doesn't matter because she won't and you know it.
You can't just make the main character of a generic action movie always right and super powerful right from the beginning, the whole point of the hero's journey is to see the hero grow. I mean yeah, you can have some hard decisions and temptations in there, but where's the tension? Why would she be tempted to join the dark side of she's already strong enough? What really counts as a hard decision when everything works out for her in the end?
>yeah the third death star is kind of stupid
Am I the only one who noticed that a third Death Star says more about how the First Order than the screenplay?
The First Order is trapped in a cycle, similar to the Nazis invading Russia in WW2...all they can think of as a comeback for the Galactic Empire is a bigger, better battlestation.
Snoke doesn't even give a shit at movie's end...the presumably hundreds of thousands to millions of troops he loses are all part of his plan to lure the last Jedi, Luke, and all the Force aware n00bs (Kylo, Rey, maybe Finn) into the open.
You niggers don't even understand what the Mary Sue trope is, much less that it was never intended to apply to PROTAGONISTS. All PROTAGONISTS are essentially Mary Sues.
Not the the whole Mary Sue complaint isn't fundamentally built around a retarded understanding of the events of the plot. She is constantly on the run, surviving by the skin of her teeth. Just because she knows how to fight, and made a living knowing about starships, doesn't make her a Mary Sue. She has learned skills that she uses to her advantage. So does Peter Parker, so does John McClane, so does Luke, so does Anakin, so does Captain America, so does every notable fucking protagonist. The point isn't that she is useless and retarded, then learns how not to be. Her character arc is about getting over her past and embracing her role as The Hero going forward. King Arthur didn't do a training montage to turn into a hero, he just happened to be the guy that could pull the magic sword out of a rock. His narrative arc is about what he does with the power that is forced upon him, not that he started off as a retard then learned how to fight more better.
Quit parroting memes you don't fucking understand, idiot.
I second this. I really enjoyed that the baddies in TFA were ALSO dynamic and flawed. Kylo fucks up multiple time throughout the story when he lets thing go (not confronting Finn when he realizes Finn is having second doubts), or gets frustrated (leaving Rey alone after she counter-mind fucks him), so when he is confronted by his dad, he tries to go all in with the darkness, and is all fucked up about that too.
He's desperately trying to be as badass as his grandpappy, and The First Order and Starkiller Base is a reflection of that.
On a meta-level this can also be read as the film trying to get back to what was good about the orig trig. Having both sides get crippled and running away with their tails between their legs at the end leaves the future films open to go in new directions.
this fucking thead ends up like every single TFA thread. TFA faggots say shit, get wrecked by anons, then give up and exit the thread and post the same retarded shit in another thread
>rinse and repeat
seriously you pleb mother fuckers how many times does this shit need to be explained? TFA has no redeeming qualities you god damn ingrates
who is the protogonist in The Phantom Awakens? It ain't Rey, she only appears a half hour in and even then she has no real idea what's going on, no motivation to 'find Luke' which the opening crawl tells me is the plot of this movie.
>give up and exit the thread and post the same retarded shit in another thread
>implying its the TFA crowd shitting up /tv/ with Mary Sue and PT threads, with the occasional Blacked thread still making a routine appearance
>she only appears a half hour in
Ten minutes, max, before we see her hopping around the guts of a rekt Star Destroyer.
About the same amount of time it took Luke to appear in ANH.
Maz Kanata and Luke's lightsaber revealing her mysterious past are her motivation.
>She has learned skills that she uses to her advantage. So does Peter Parker, so does John McClane, so does Luke, so does Anakin, so does Captain America, so does every notable fucking protagonist
But she doesn't.
The Jedi knew the sith had awaken. Upon seeing maul they knew he was a sith and they had to stop him. The only Jedi who knew who maul was had died in the underbelly of coruscant right before tpm happened.
He generally only reviews movies that fail to accomplish what they set out to do, and generally suck. If he's going to start reviewing the not-shitty Star Wars movies, he should start with Return of the Teddy Bears.
You literally don't know what the term means. Mary Sue applies to characters that are perfect and badass WITH NO ESTABLISHED REASON TO BE. Her abilities as a mechanic, familiarity with starships, and ability to defend herself are established by story context and exposition. Check your understanding of things you learned about a week ago from Max Landis at the faggot depot, dipshit.
It was a lot more character driven, and even with the ANH story it didn't have long drawn out political plot arcs in an action movie. It's at least understandable why they liked this movie more than the prequels. I'd have been more ciritcal but the review didn't go very deep anyways.
It's amusing to see on their videos their fans writing these angry walls of text because the review didn't bash it.
Yeah it was the only Plinkett review about something that he didn't hate. And it was generally not super-interesting. I'd like to see his point-by-point about how TFA succeeds, like his Star Trek review, but mainly just to watch the /tv/ contrarians REEEE about it.
>abilities as a mechanic, familiarity with starships,
>I pick up shit in the desert and sell it for scrap now I can fly ships, fight anything, and fix anything
that's like a homeless guy picking up cans on the side of the road and using that knowledge to build a CPU.
it was a remake of ANH and still didnt capture why star wars was brilliant. youre pretty much a 16 year old at this point to not get that
shes a mary sue. why does leia hug her instead of chewie? why can she perform feats of insane skill by just being a scavenger. thats like saying i take apart computers for a living but somehow know how to code like a pro
Rey and Finn had a lot of interaction with Ren before the fight. Rey when taken prisoner and Finn working with the First Order.
Qui Gon literally never spoke with Maul he only attacked him once.
>Her abilities as a mechanic, familiarity with starships, and ability to defend herself are established by story context and exposition.
but not her abilities with force persuasion, force pull, force mindfuck, and blasters yet she's proficient in all of them?
I'm not a patrician like yourself but maybe they were doing a new take on the same story using talents they know they have rather than trying and failing to do something they know they can't.
>why can she perform feats of insane skill by just being a scavenger
Why can luke shoot missiles through a 2 foot hole?
why can luke rappel across a 20 foot gap?
Why can luke navigate through a space station infested with elite stormtroopers?
>I'm a scavenging survivor who makes a living scavenging from and repairing starships, and I've survived this long on a hostile desert planet by learning how to fight and having utility. I live in a universe where starships are basically cars.
It's like if A PERSON THAT MAKES A LIVING FIGHTING AND WORKING ON STARSHIPS knows how to fight and operate starships.
It's like if a shlubby failure cop somehow knows how to foil a bunch of heavily armed terrorists.
It's like if an optimistic, well-intentioned lowborn wannabe-knight is able to pull a magic sword out of a stone.
It's like if an archeology teacher is really good at martial arts, shooting, whip utility, murdering people, and inexplicably escaping elaborate traps.
and thats too safe and uninspired. over a billion dollars were shelled out so the world could see ANH redone. sure it was decent and you didnt hate it but at the same time it just sucks as its own story. i dont think anyone wanted to see a rehashed ANH.
dont remind me
>why does leia hug her instead of chewie?
Why does Leia hug her likely niece instead of her ex's gorilla dog sidekick?
>why can she perform feats of insane skill by just being a scavenger
Why do people who know how to climb and do stuff know how to climb and do stuff?
>thats like saying i take apart computers for a living but somehow know how to code like a pro
No it isn't.
The final shot was analogous to his training which was also blind force usage, but Luke surviving the Death Star, even adapting to the situtation easily, was pretty impressive. Rey at least showed to have some fighting experience. Luke farmed water.
>RLM shits on the prequels to the point of pure memery, saying things like "you can't enjoy the opening on Revenge of the Sith because it's CGI and CGI is common these days."
>RLM sucks-off the glib fascimilie TFA like it's their landlord
I hate these bastards.
he's been flying the same companys ship for his whole life and lets you know that he bullseyes womprats like no ones business
because they werent trying to hit him. they had a tracking beacon on the falcon. vader says this. they wanted them to escape but vader wanted to fucking kill obi wan so he made sure he did that. they wanted to find the rebel base, and they did
>FIGHTING AND WORKING ON STARSHIPS
If by that you mean she wandered around aimlessly on a desert planet collecting junk like an old man on a beach then yeah ok.
Do you seriously think that hollywood screenwriters are responsible for inventing the story? Usually the director and other writers think of the story and then hire a screenwriter to lay it out in a single script.
Get it? The Force awakens? Because the Force chose a strong independent woman who don't need no man, or training for that matter to suddenly become a Jesus heroine that fights back against the oppressive misogynistic white man? Oh yeah and the black guy loves her because diversity!
Welcome to the new age boys: /tvc/ - Television, Films & Cuckolds
Why couldn't Luke see the a droid tricked him?
Why couldn't Luke not get BTFO by sandpeople?
Why couldn't Luke defend himself from two thugs at a bar?
Why could't Luke talk to the alien at the bar?
Why couldn't Luke bail them out of the trash compactor?
Why did Luke have to be bailed out by Han Solo in the trench run?
>Why can luke shoot missiles through a 2 foot hole?
Because he used to bullseye womp rats in his T-16 back home.
> why can luke rappel across a 20 foot gap?
swinging on a rope ain't that fucking difficult
>Why can luke navigate through a space station infested with elite stormtroopers?
With the help of a droid that can access the computers and Stormtrooper disguise
>but not her abilities with force persuasion, force pull, force mindfuck,
Probably trained in that before being abandoned. Even if she wasn't, she lived down the road from the church of the force. She would have known what those things were. And the point is clear that she's very powerful. You know, like Luke and Anakin. Almost like there's precedent or something.
She says she knows how to use blasters. All protagonists are crack shots in all movies. Luke is a moisture farmer and he shoots people easily. Cry about it.
able to do them
so she wont hug her ex husbands best friend who she went through great adventures with because lol maybe niece
uhhh she bullseyes stormtroopers, overpowers kylo with the force and with a lightsaber, and literally saves everyone at every fucking turn
>no it isnt
yes it is. she salvages shit, why should she be able to pilot better than anakin and be able to fix the falcon the moment she needs to? somehow she knows the falcon better than Han fucking Solo and fixes it even though she states that its junk and has no interest in it. shes a shit character
>If by that you mean she wandered around aimlessly on a desert planet collecting junk
If by that you mean things you made up to prove a point that you can't actually do using evidence from then film, then I'll let you chase your straw windmills on your own time.
>Probably trained in that before being abandoned. Even if she wasn't, she lived down the road from the church of the force. She would have known what those things were. And the point is clear that she's very powerful. You know, like Luke and Anakin. Almost like there's precedent or something.
literally, >implying the statement
>She says she knows how to use blasters
no, she doesn't. she says she can handle herself and says the way to use it is to pull the trigger, han doesn't even teach her, but she figures it out anyway.
>able to do them
no other character in the film was better than her at them
Accept Rey is literally channeling Obi-Wan and Yoda. She also was trained by or at least had a mentor relationship with Luke; so there were definitely men that contributed to her force abilities.
She also knows how to use the staff; that's why she stabs with the light saber and doesn't just swipe. Plus Ren is still an apprentice so he isn't crazy powerful anyways.
>uhhh she bullseyes stormtroopers, overpowers kylo with the force and with a lightsaber
Uhh luke bullseyed stormtroopers. Leia bullseyed stormtroopers.
Uhh Kylo LOST. He was weak physically, and in the force, was clearly conflicted, and was trying to recruit her. She took advantage of his letting her consider his offer to disarm and wound him. And she's better at space magic. Cry about it faggot.
>and literally saves everyone at every fucking turn
No she doesn't.
>yes it is. she salvages shit, why should she be able to pilot better than anakin and be able to fix the falcon the moment she needs to? somehow she knows the falcon better than Han fucking Solo and fixes it even though she states that its junk and has no interest in it. shes a shit character
Confirmed for retard. Why should a person WHO HAS SPENT OVER A DECADE WORKING ON STARSHIPS be a better pilot than A FUCKING TODDLER SLAVE ANAKIN?
Be more retarded.
Luke never felt as 'natural' to me. He mostly fucks up and loses to Vader. In Return he comes back full of smug only to get duped into Rankor cave like a fucktard. He only manages to beat Vader thanks to retard rage
>Why should a person WHO HAS SPENT OVER A DECADE WORKING ON STARSHIPS be a better pilot than A FUCKING TODDLER SLAVE ANAKIN?
>If I spend a year working at a car parts store, I'll become a better driver than a small town race car driver
>using the Ot characters to defend rey
>no she doesnt
saves herself, finn and bb8 from tie fighters
saves finn from rathtarrs
saves everyone by fixing the falcon
saves herself by mindtricking a trooper
saves finn by BTFO kylo ren
>working on starships
please tell me how a scavenger, who literally pulls shit out of star ships, somehow knows how to pilot the falcon better than everyone else. dont bring up anakin, he was a shit character. i never defended him. you are running out of arguments fuck boy
if youre a fucking savant with an IQ of 170 maybe, but that doesnt make a good fucking character in a star wars movie which is based around character growth, rey shouldnt be tony stark
>They try tu survive
>Finn gets mad when Kylo calls him a "traitor", maybe because he just killed his father, maybe he's just tired of being called a traitor, I don't know but he gets mad
>Rey then gets mad because Finn got BTFO
>Meanwhile Kylo has a fucking storm of emotions going through his mind
Comparing this to
>Anakin and Obi Wan fight Dooku
>Yoda fights too
>The fight ends
>somehow she knows the falcon better than Han fucking Solo and fixes it
She was basically the slave of the guy who had owned it for years and had made modifications she knew about and Han didn't. And she didn't even really fix it during the hyperspace scene. She just ripped out a part like an idiot and it happened to work.
Ehh, guess you're right when you think about it that way.
Only reason is I thought he sucks with a Lightsaber is because even finn got a hit on him, and his supposedly force sensitive.
>>great with the force
His force freeze and mind read shit seems pretty well versed, as well as he can stop blaster shots mid air while continuing to do other things. That looked pretty impressive.
Like anon said, Kylo is no become just some guy since he has lost to an untrained force user now. He doesn't have the menacing threat like the 3 movie build up like Vader had with luke. They're going to have to figure out something to make up for this.
Him being a pod racer is retarded too. Literally no human has ever won a pod-race, except for Rey's grandpa when he was 8. His toddlerbilities are apparently reasonable to you, but everything she does is MUH MARY SUE.
Almost all protagonists are Mary Sues. The Mary Sue trope doesn't apply to protagonists. It applies to secondary characters that are too skilled for their station. It's retarded to complain about them in the space fantasy movie about protagonists who come out of nowhere and are inexplicably good at stuff. They all are. It's the fucking point. They're "the one." We're only watching them BECAUSE THEY ARE SPECIAL. It's a goddamn waste of time and an empty complaint. Keep memeing for Max Landis.
Yeah, she knew what the compressor was, and she ripped it out like an idiot. She wasn't fixing anything, just tearing out a part Han didn't know how to work with. I never even got the impression that scene was supposed to show her doing something impressive. To me, it looked like she panicked and did something potentially stupid, then there was a brief moment of tension before it turned out okay.
The writing is pretty considerably good. We're arguing about half-assed nitpicks that you contrarians are desperately clinging to because you need to anonymously stress how special you are.
she literally turned around with a huge smile like a fucking toddler who pooped in the toilet for the first time on her own and said that line. she knew it would work, we didnt see her being conflicted about ripping it out, she just does it and smiles and we're supposed to pat her on the head and go "oh that rey, shes so great!"
not saying it isn't but the internal logic of anakin and luke being good pilots is already laid out for everyone. but rey was a scavanger, so she's a pilot now? thats like saying because I was a waiter, I must be a great cook. the logic doesn't follow.
you know a lot of people can accept the fact that she's a better force user, but they want to know how and why she so quickly learns shit that usually has to be learned. you can be a real natural at math, but that doesn't mean the day after I teach you algebra(or about algebra), you are going to start doing differential equations. I know that you can't only respond to this by cry more, so go ahead and say it
It seems like the people arguing are coming from different viewpoints which is why nobody is getting anywhere here. The people who defend Rey are looking at it in universe, ie "She's an expert fighter because she grew up as a scavenger! It's justified!" and the people who dislike her do so because being an ultra perfect mechanical space wizard is damaging to the narrative because there's no tension, or arc, or anything. She's really no different from Resident Evil's Alice except Rey is attached to a franchise people, you know, give a shit about.
>struggles a lot as he grows as a character and guides us through the story
>is super amazing and can do anything because The Force Awakened, other characters exist solely to be wowed and one upped by her
>considers han the father she never had
>wants to abandon everyone to go back to jakku and wait for her family
unless shes fucking retarded you have to make that a plot point. in the movie we never see that she feels han is her surrogate dad other than a throwaway line by kylo. there is no character growth in the new movie other than finn becoming a good guy out of nowhere and rey deciding to use the force. dont even tell me that those examples are good character growth because they arent. they are rushed and its hard to really get why they feel this way
>Thinking there's any "booty blasting" a'happening.
There's only so many times I can repeat the same responses to the same copypasted complaints. If you want to chalk this up as a "win," have at it faggot. You're the one wasting your time complaining anonymously about things you don't even fucking like. There's no winners here.
End of the day, the movie succeeds as a film and as a revival of a dying franchise. To most viewers, it connected on aesthetic, emotional levels and offered an engaging story that was greater than the sum of it's nitpicks. There's no amount of you anonymously parroting Max Landis that will change that.
Han Solo just got fucking murdered. They were pissed off. Also Kylo and Rey had an established dynamic from the interrogation scene. That's enough emotional tension for me, and sure as shit had more going for it than the average prequel fight. I really liked it.
Part of Rey's character is that she keeps her emotions close to her chest. She doesn't explain why she wants to stay on jakku, Maz figures it out with her old person powers. She likewise doesn't try to let off that she sees han as a father figure
>there is no character growth in the new movie other than finn becoming a good guy out of nowhere and rey deciding to use the force
Except there's also Kylo's progressively deteriorating mental state
>i bypassed the compressor
are you retarded?
just because the normal person is retarded and enjoyed the movie doesnt mean its flawless. it was a fucking rushed, incoherent, souless reboot you fucking mong
Development is just the process of change. Kylo's mental state changes, therefore his character develops. 'Character development' comes in more forms than 'protagonist learns to be brave and stand up for himself', it can be destructive as well
>not saying it isn't but the internal logic of anakin and luke being good pilots is already laid out for everyone
NO IT ISN'T. The line about Luke was added in 1997. And shooting womp-rats doesn't explain why he's suddenly the best and only pilot capable of destroying a fucking Death Star. Not to mention he fucking uses THE FORCE to do it. And there's no amount of exposition that makes it any more reasonable that some fucking slave baby is the best podracer ever.
And sorry to break this to you, but a race car driver wouldn't know the first fucking thing about flying a space ship. And Rey's ability to fly a space ship didn't save the day in the third act. Luke and Anakin's did. That's even fucking dumber.
End of the day. Fucking cry about it. Keep grasping at straws. They're all Mary Sues.
so him killing han was character development? he was already evil, just because he does something more evil doesnt make good development. shit you could say rey had development because she fought kylo with a lightsaber. thats not good character development. that is the least amount you could possibly have
he becomes more evil. wow, such development
the movie was filled with holes and contrivances that didnt make sense. you could follow it only if you didnt give a shit about the story
Except no? It's pretty obvious in Phantom why Maul is following them. They escaped the blockade on Naboo and the Trade Federation is too incompetent to find them, so Sheev sends Maul to track them down. Did you people even watch the movie? During the actual fight scene he shows up to stop the Queen and her guards from retaking Naboo because that would derail Sheev's plans to start a war.
>>a bureaucracy is fighting a trade federation over some tax disputes
Again, did you even watch the movie? The trade negotiations shit is not even relevant, it's about Sheev working behind the scenes to destabilize the Republic, and the invasion of Naboo is his first attempt to do so. Hence the title of the fucking movie, "The Phantom Menace". There is a lot to criticize in the prequels but I swear to god half of these people are just to retarded to follow a plot that's a little more complex than SPACE NAZIS = EBIL.
>just because the normal person is retarded and enjoyed the movie doesnt mean its flawless.
Never said it was. Never said it was supposed to be.
>it was a fucking rushed, incoherent, souless reboot you fucking mong
I found it quite soulful, and it's only incoherent if you're fucking retarded. Even things that aren't stated by dialogue can easily be inferred through context and visual exposition.
>And there's no amount of exposition that makes it any more reasonable that some fucking slave baby is the best podracer ever.
He wasn't the best ever. It was the only race he finished much less won in a string of races won by Sebulba. Sebulba is a better racer.
a movie filled with plot holes and contrivances doesnt make a good movie, it makes it incoherent. the scene with rey and finn vs the tie fighters was so "how the fuck are they doing this" that it became mind numbing
>are you retarded?
Are you? She was guessing about whether it would work or not. Han said they were moments from being obliterated abd Rey tore out the compressor (an issue Han had mentioned earlier. When she turned around, she smiled like a toddler trying to impress someone and sounded pretty exasperated, like a kid trying to find out if they did the right thing.
I know autism makes it hard to understand human interactions and it can be hard to follow a plot when shiny things and explosions are happening, but try.
I don't know why you're bothering to argue with so many people when your arguments come down to gross simplifications. Like you're not even fucking trying to argue properly, you're just being lazy? Why even bother? Just do a quick quip and get out, these reply chains aren't doing anything for you.
Okay so even if they added the line about Luke being a pilot later, it's still there in the most current version of the movies, which makes it canon. Anakin in Phantom is a bit of a Mary Sue but at least they explain that he had experience pod racing. Rey beating Kylo doesn't make any sense, and it makes even less sense that she can do mind tricks and telekenesis (something that Luke wasn't able to do until the Empire). Especially since the established lore shows that untrained force sensitives typically show abilities like heightened reflexes and occasional visions of the future, not performing advanced techniques like the mind trick right away.
are you autistic and unable to read character depth or are you making an active effort to ignore things?
Kylo is presented at the start of the movie as the dark powerful force who can freeze laser shots and kills innocent people. When he learns about rey's abilities and more importantly the fact that she's bonded with his father in a way he never did, he starts to lose his confidence and mental composure (note that this is also the point where he takes his mask off, it's blatant symbolism for his fake confident persona disappearing). There's also the whole internal conflict where he's an edgelord who wants to be evil but still has some of the good side in him which he actively has to ignore
Him killing han at the end was the final tipping point, but the entire movie was full of moments which brought him to that point
Plot holes and contrivances do not contribute to incoherency. Coherency is about how the narrative transitions from location to location and setting the moments which cause the character to develop. What you're complaining about is nitpicks and literally nothing to do with coherency
why are you mad?
>And shooting womp-rats doesn't explain why he's suddenly the best and only pilot capable of destroying a fucking Death Star.
Luke gets bailed out by Han and Obi-won on the death star run. He is also pretty much a garage grease monkey who pilots his own small craft in the film. The tension that you feel on the final death star run is because this is the first time Luke is really on his own in the entire film, which is worrying because everyone has had to save his ass multiple times.
>And there's no amount of exposition that makes it any more reasonable that some fucking slave baby is the best podracer ever.
It's dumb that a 9 year old kid is racing ships(and had been racing them for 3 years), but the internal logic of him being proficient pilot, because he was a great racer holds. at least it holds better than a scrap collector being an ace.
> And Rey's ability to fly a space ship didn't save the day in the third act. Luke and Anakin's did. That's even fucking dumber.
you didn't even address my other point
because you can't[/spoilers]
go ahead and defend the shit writing, by saying cry more. it's the one thing you've been good at
What are you talking about? He takes the mask off before mind reading Rey because she calls him out on being a phony.
How does he become more unstable after that? He was already tearing up control panels before Rey got captured.
Darth Maul, a resurgent Sith, that are supposedly extinct, is apparently in league with the Trade Federation, and attacks a Jedi Master and his Padawan, that we've been following since the very beginning of the film, as they've been trying to piece together what the hell is going on. Maul kills the Master, and the Padawan lashes out.
Trade Federation is the beginnings of a Galactic Conflict that tears it apart, which is put into action by the Sith.
Nope, nothing here of worth.
It's your opinion, man, but TPM is far more realistic in depiction conflicts on the battlefield and off.
watch the scene again, she knows what shes doing. shes a perfect, flawless character. like the scene with han and the blaster, she gives him a "are you serious" look that makes everyone know shes a stronk woman and doesnt need no help
how exactly did she bond with han? she constantly acts like a stuck up bitch to him. when he passes her the blaster shes like "lol i can take care of myself fuccboi". the movie is so rushed that there is no scene where we see that she bonding with han. all we got was "oh youre han solo!" and "i bypassed the compressor!" and "i need some crewmates want a job?". nothing states that theyre bonding
it has to do with coherency because nothing makes sense. the characters are doing things that dont make sense considering them. why the fuck did the resistance send only 3 guys down on the falcon when one was an old smuggler and the other was an imperial defector? fuck finn might be a spy dont send him down! also why is leia hugging rey at the end instead of chewie? why can rey pilot the falcon? why is finn ok with shooting troopers? how did poe escape? why did r2 wake up?
>basing the entire backstory on a single movie
>when the original trilogy took 3 movies to show the full history of Luke and Vader
Also, while Plinkett is entertaining and all, I wish people stop using his ideas as a scientific barometer.
That is like treating TV Tropes seriously. Stop.
Why do all the criticisms of this movie come down to the "Rey is a mary sue" meme? It's fucking retarded.
Personally, while I liked the movie a lot, I thought the pacing was too frantic. The movie was too eager to jump from place to place and never have anything that could be perceived as a "dull moment". Besides a few moments on Jakku, there wasn't much time spent on establishing the worlds or the overall setting.
I mean, we barely know what the fuck the Republic is. Seeing those Republic planets get blown up was just confusing to me. "Oh, that just happened." We don't need prequel-tier longass boring political scenes, but some well-crafted exposition here and there would be nice. At least something on the level of the Death Star scenes in A New Hope.
I still think the prequels are shit, but TFA made me appreciate them for the effort. Lucas really tried to expand the universe and make it more grandiose. Fucking Abrams made a shitty "soft reboot"
>Luke gets bailed out by Han and Obi-won on the death star run.
EVERYONE LIKES HIM HES A MARY SUE RREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
> is also pretty much a garage grease monkey who pilots his own small craft in the film
According to nothing other than one retroactive line of dialogue. He's a moisture farmer.
> at least it holds better than a scrap collector being an ace.
Wasn't an ace. Crashed repeatedly going through the learning curve in a new ship. Didn't save the day at the end with her pilot abilities.
>Go ahead and defend the shit writing, by saying cry more. it's the one thing you've been good at
One of the best written star wars films. Better written than Star Wars. Cry about it faggoo.
It's literally part of the same scene
Tearing up consoles doesn't show he's unstable, just that he has a temper. Kylo doesn't do any of the 'p-please snoke give me another chance' or crying in front of his dad until after that point
It's kind of hard to not use a "Plinkett argument" because Mike "Myklon B" Stoklasa touched on literally every concievable problem with those movies. His review was fucking 70 minutes long.
>there is no scene where we see that she bonding with han
There is a scene where she copilots the falcon and they work out issues together, plus han straight out offers her a spot on the falcon. Pay attention
>hans low on crew and he needs new blood so offers her a job
>she literally fixes the falcon and tells han how to fly it
how is that bonding?
uh no they didnt explain that shit you fuck. poe says something akin to "thats a story for another time". nothing is explained
More like the talented art team.
Lucas' writing had nothing to do with it. Ultimately the prequels were just about getting Anakin in the Darth Vader suit, everything else was just a means to an end, window dressing.
>Whats the 'internalisation' of their actions?
literally EVERYONE but rey and finn were looking for luke skywalker. they get thrust into the story and pick a side due to their actions and find themselves in the middle of something bigger.
By definition she is a Marry Sue. Every character loves her, she is instantly respected by the badass Hon Solo and almost cucks Chewie, orange Yoda can sense her power, villain of the movie has a massive boner for her, she is inevitably going to be trained by literally the biggest badass war hero in the galaxy in the next movie.
And there was no build up or explanation beforehand as to why she is worthy of all this attention. At least in the original trilogy Han Solo wasn't immediately sucking Luke's dick and thought the force was just space parlor tricks.
Any character that is immediately loved by everyone is, by definition, a Marry Sue.
Why are you mad though?
>EVERYONE LIKES HIM HES A MARY SUE RREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Han doesn't like him at first, but you do see them grow together in the film(death star, trash compactor scene, taking out the star fighters).
Obi-won is his protector who thinks of him as a son.
> is also pretty much a garage grease monkey who pilots his own small craft in the film
telling Han he's not a bad pilot himself isn't retroactive
>Wasn't an ace. Crashed repeatedly going through the learning curve in a new ship. Didn't save the day at the end with her pilot abilities.
killed three ships, thats two away from an ace, thats pretty damn good. her not saving with pilot skills is a non-sequitur
>One of the best written star wars films. Better written than Star Wars. Cry about it faggoo.
>better written than itself
sure thing buddy
>uh no they didnt explain that shit you fuck. poe says something akin to "thats a story for another time". nothing is explained
That was Maz about the lightsaber.
Poe says he was ejected from the tie fighter (exactly like finn was, remember that he had to walk a distance to reach the wreckage) but was knocked unconscious until night time. Finn and Poe never crossed paths because poe was still unconscious by the time finn had left jakku.
>how is that bonding?
>how is doing things together where you both benefit each other bonding?
so you're autistic, got it
>Every character loves her,
Except for all the ones that don't. She bonds quickly with the fellow desperate orphan Finn, and proves her utility to Han in their first interaction. Everyone else kind of wants to kill her. Oh her most-likely aunt gives her a Hug, CONFIRMED FOR MARY SUE.
>pay fucking attention
so he ejected in his tie fighter and then what? he was in street clothes, youre telling me he somehow navigated the harsh wasteland of jakku and somehow signaled the resistance with nothing but his clothes? fuck off
so two scenes of them doing stupid shit means they bonded. ok sure, whos the real autist here? i think its you. no one bonds after two fucking conversations
>so he ejected in his tie fighter and then what? he was in street clothes, youre telling me he somehow navigated the harsh wasteland of jakku and somehow signaled the resistance with nothing but his clothes? fuck off
Does the movie really need to spoonfeed you? He's the best resistance pilot, it's well within reason that he's savvy enough to find a way to contact the resistance to pick him up
>no one bonds after two fucking conversations
You're only proving your autism by unironically suggesting that this isn't possible
oh yea im sure a fucking pilot can do everything
yea it might be possible, but you know what that is? its contrived dipshit. "oh theyre best friends now after two conversations!" you literally have no intelligence
no thats not an explanation. woo he escaped the tie but
>howd he lose his jacket
>howd he signal the resistance
>howd he get back in time to attack starkiller
>howd he navigate jakku and survive with no water, food, or anything other than his clothing
>Why are you mad though?
I don't have emotional investment in interactions with autists on /tv/. I just like internet arguing with dipshits when before I beddy bye time.
>Han doesn't like him at first, but you do see them grow together in the film(death star, trash compactor scene, taking out the star fighters).
Obi-won is his protector who thinks of him as a son.
Han doesn't like her at first either. He realizes her utility after they get out of the jackpot with the badmen. It's almost like Han and Rey's interaction was based on different circumstances than Han and Luke's. Luke was a whiney bitch age-peer who Han was initially taking advantage of. Rey was someone who Han initially fucking attacked before they quickly united against a common enemy. Not to mention Han was a completely different person after the OT, and we're seeing him now behaving in same fucking way that Obi-Wan was, having learned empathy, and wanting to see a new generation succeed after fucking dealing with the last one.
>Complains when the movie is too similar to Star Wars
>Complains when the movie isn't the same fucking thing as Star Wars
>telling Han he's not a bad pilot himself isn't retroactive
There is ZERO evidence in the 1977 Star Wars that establishes that Luke should be any good at flying a fucking fighter jet.
>killed three ships, thats two away from an ace, thats pretty damn good. her not saving with pilot skills is a non-sequitur
Her gunner killed the ships if I'm not mistaken.
> her not saving with pilot skills is a non-sequitur
You don't know what non-sequitor is. If we want to use deleted scenes and supplemental shit to support Luke's abilities, let's go ahead and address the fact that there's deleted scenes and the novelization that explicitly detail why and how she knows how to fly. Not that we need to, it's essentially canon that EVERYONE knows how to fly fucking space ships. It's a fictional universe where ships are how you get around.
Nobody said anything about best friends. All they say is Rey considers her a father figure. Rey is established to be a lonely kid with nobody to look out for her, so when han comes along and shows even the slightest amount of care for her (commending her knowledge, giving her a gun) it is absolutely within reason for her to look up to him and consider her a father figure. Nothing suggests it has to be a two way thing
>howd he navigate jakku and survive with no water, food, or anything other than his clothing
You mean exactly what Finn - someone less competent than Poe - did? Poe also has the advantage of being stationed on Jakku for some amount of time. Do you actually expect the movie to spoonfeed you every little detail? Are you incapable of deriving obvious facts based on the evidence the movie provides?
>>howd he lose his jacket
>>howd he signal the resistance
>>howd he get back in time to attack starkiller
>>howd he navigate jakku and survive with no water, food, or anything other than his clothing
questions we don't have the exact answer to but are very easy to fucking explain. it's not impossible that any of those things happened. you're just butthurt that they didn't explain non essential plot points
fuck you and your autism. literally jumping at anything you can to try and hate a well put together movie
actually RLM admitted that they didn't really like the movie very much
they acted like it was mediocre, which it was
they also made fun of all the poetry stuff that was borrowed from the OT
Finn completely his arc from traitor running from the First Order to facing a fight he's sure to lose but has to try. What is at stake for Finn is whether he's a coward running from his past or if he's strong enough to face that past head on.
Rey completes her arc from girl that refuses the force and wants to stay on Jakku to accepting the force and her destiny. What is at stake for Rey is her life obviously, but not just because Kylo is threatening it. What kind of life she'll lead is really dependent on if she'll accept the force, symbolic of her taking charge of her life, or the alternative of becoming that old wrinkly lady cleaning salvage.
Kylo, being the villain, has a different kind of arc from conflicted and tempted by the light to killing his dad and testing the strength that was supposed to bring up. He loses because even though he killed his dad, he can't harness that emotion like a proficient dark side user because his internal conflict wasn't resolved just by killing Han.
Rey is good enough to beat Kylo because she let the force guide her while he's trying to manipulate it in ways he can't convince his conscience is right.
Idk what this has to do with my own edginess but I got a bored vibe from the guys. They didn't seem super enthusiastic about the movie. They just admitted that some storytelling stuff was technically better than the prequels, but it felt like they all knew the magic was gone
>They didn't seem super enthusiastic about the movie.
To be fair, they filmed that whole thing at like 4 AM, having gone to the 1 AM show
>I don't have emotional investment in interactions with autists on /tv/. I just like internet arguing with dipshits when before I beddy bye time.
>Han doesn't like her at first either.
> Not to mention Han was a completely different person after the OT, and we're seeing him now behaving in same fucking way that Obi-Wan was, having learned empathy, and wanting to see a new generation succeed after fucking dealing with the last one.
These can't both be accurate
>There is ZERO evidence in the 1977 Star Wars that establishes that Luke should be any good at flying a fucking fighter jet.
he talks about flying before hand and he talks about going to the academy. his garage is also filled with different tech and he talks about how some of his friends went to the academy as well. it's not that hard of a leap. unlike a scrap collector, who lives an isolated monk-like existence knowing anything about piloting a ship.
>Her gunner killed the ships if I'm not mistaken
it's shown that is was only because of her
>the novelization that explicitly detail why and how she knows how to fly. Not that we need to, it's essentially canon that EVERYONE knows how to fly fucking space ships. It's a fictional universe where ships are how you get around.
show, what you're saying is that it wasn't in the movie? gotcha
>implying anyone will be talking about this even a year from now
We capeshit now
>Literally every major hero + the main villain of the new trilogy all either love her, respect her, or fear her for minor hand waving.
>"Hurrrrrr she used some jargon with Solo and now he wants to make her his partner for life despite having only met for an hour"
>But Fish Head Alien 4 isn't sporting a boner when she walks into the rebel base so it doesn't count!
You are literally the most retarded person on /tv/ at this exact moment.
Name one major character she interacts directly with that doesn't immediately act like she is the biggest shit in town. Not even Anakin generated as much respect as she did and he was prophesied as Jedi Jesus.
I - 1/10
II - 1/10
III - 2/10 at least he tried
IV - 8/10
V - 9/10
VI - 6.5/10
VII - 5/10 Just looks better to normies compared to I, II, III
Hating TFA doesn't mean you defend the prequels. Why the fuck is everyone here look at movies so black and white. Bunch of godamn 14 year olds.
Wasn't it 4am?
My contribution to this thread is that they'd just finished watching it, it was 4 in the fucking morning and their brains didn't really process the bad things about it yet.
I think more material will be coming out in the next year talking about the star wars movie in a more critical fashion.
Once the blurays come out maybe.
When Mike does the plinkett review it will be a bit more critical when pointing out the poetry and the dumber parts like the tentacle monster, but it will ultimately be a positive review
Almost exactly like the 2009 star trek review
Oh yeah. You bet that'll happen. I remember 5 years ago when Avatar was the biggest piece of shit ever, according to /tv/ and /b/, and now it's being aggressively defended against the box office threat of TFA.
I remember when since always the prequels were considered the hateful shit that they are, and now there are multiple threads a day about how great they are. YOu contrarian fucks'll be sucking this films dick once enough time has passed that it's more edgy to like it. If it wasn't for the endless Mary Sue, I-Watched-the-Plinkett-reviews, bitchposting, nobody would be talking about this shit anyway.
Not that anon but
Rey says she's a pilot before the Falcon scene and right after she again says she's flown ships but never left the planet.
If you accept Luke's garage being filled with tech then by that logic Rey's scavenging would count too. It's also weird you'd bring up Luke wanting to go get training as evidence of his proficiency.
And really Finn and Rey are responsible for a TIE death each, she didn't really do anything when Finn shot the first one besides fly straight.
Aren't you a little late to be responding to OP?
>his garage is also filled with different tech and he talks about how some of his friends went to the academy as well. it's not that hard of a leap.
Ok so a farmer who has friend that go to the Navy Academy, and MAY have SOME flight experience could get into an F-18 and be the best pilot immediately. Keep grasphing bruh. CONFRIMED 4 MURRAY SEW
>it's shown that is was only because of her
No. It's shown that they worked together.
>show, what you're saying is that it wasn't in the movie? gotcha
Neither was any indication that Luke was any goddamn good in a fucking fighter jet. Luke's expositional flight abilities are as canon as Han shooting second.
And once again, SHOW. We are SHOWN that she works on star ships. We are SHOWN the process of her taking off in a space ship. We are SHOWN her working for the guy that owns the Falcon. This is more than enough understandable exposition to explain why the fuck she was able to fly a spaceship in that space magic movie. This is an incredibly petty nitpick in an otherwise pretty-goddamn-good movie. The fact the protagonist being a MARY SUE is the biggest issue that people have is an indicator that there's not a whole lot of negatives in the film.
The sum of the parts makes a greater product than the deficits of the under-explained nitpicks. If the film didn't work for you, that's a subjective aesthetic reaction. But by just about every measurable standard, particulrly when considering the petty nature of the memey complaints, it's plainly evident that as a whole the film succeeds. If you disagree, cry about it.
>Rey says she's a pilot before the Falcon scene
when? I thought she only said it right when her and finn where being chased(when the script demanded a pilot)
>right after she again says she's flown ships but never left the planet
that I remember
>If you accept Luke's garage being filled with tech then by that logic Rey's scavenging would count too.
not really, it was looked like his hobby and passion, to her it was just a job.
>It's also weird you'd bring up Luke wanting to go get training as evidence of his proficiency
It implies a base level of knowledge
And really Finn and Rey are responsible for a TIE death each, she didn't really do anything when Finn shot the first one besides fly straight.
might have to watch again, but I thought she set up two, if not all three kills
>Rey is good enough to beat Kylo because she let the force guide her while he's trying to manipulate it in ways he can't convince his conscience is right.
that's not how the force works its people who use it not the other way around
>Name one major character she interacts directly with that doesn't immediately act like she is the biggest shit in town.
Almost all of them. The entire first act is her interacting with people that treat her like shit. After she gets force-awaken, it's kind of the entire fucking point that she's feared. The movie is called THE FORCE AWAKENS, and she is at the heart of that.
>being this retarded.
Keep on memeing faggot. When has Max Landis ever been wrong?!?!
That's when she outright states it but when the movie shows her home you can see she has a bunch of novelty pilot stuff like a doll of a rebel pilot and a rebel pilot helmet and you see her admiring a ship that's leaving jakku
The thing about TFA is that - like well written movies do - character motivations aren't just explicitly stated in dialog, they're physically shown in how the characters act and the environment they live in. Of course if someone idolises the prequels they wouldn't really know about this
>Ok so a farmer who has friend that go to the Navy Academy, and MAY have SOME flight experience could get into an F-18 and be the best pilot immediately. Keep grasphing bruh. CONFRIMED 4 MURRAY SEW
he isnt even a great pilot if it wasn't for obi wan he would have never made that shot
Yes they fucking are. Not only are people saying Avatar was good or better, they're saying the prequels are. /tv/ isn't guided by reason or rational criticism, it's guided by contrarian edginess.
So that character THAT LIKED HIM FOR NO REASON CONFIRMED FOR MARY SUE used force magic head-talking to ALLOW HIM TO MAKE AN IMPOSSIBLE SHOT AGAINST ALL ODDS CONFIRMED FOR MARY SUE.
>be the best pilot immediately
Best pilot? He was nearly vaped by Vader. Only thing that saved him was Han's sudden return. In Empire, his speeder is shot down before he accomplishes anything.
Luke is established as a learned pilot early on, but not one who is preternaturally skilled.
>when? I thought she only said it right when her and finn where being chased(when the script demanded a pilot)
Yeah that time while running, then after when her and Finn are talking really fast at each other in excitement which you remember. Those two times, same number Luke's piloting skills are mentioned in the theatrical release of ANH.
>not really, it was looked like his hobby and passion, to her it was just a job.
Maybe you'd be right except she has a rebel alliance pilot rag doll and when she watches a ship leave orbit she puts on her rebel alliance pilot helmet.
>It implies a base level of knowledge
Wanting to go to military/pilot school seems to imply you don't know how to fly. Most people don't go into boot camp knowing how to take apart a rifle. You don't go to flight school because you've flown around before. Now it's Star Wars so who the fuck knows and I won't say these things show Luke shouldn't have any pilot ability, just that it isn't evidence for his flight skill. At most it shows the same interest as his garage and Rey's doll and helmet.
>but I thought she set up two, if not all three kills
There's only two TIEs, Finn just shoots one and it crashes into the Star Destroyer's exterior. The other TIE follows them through the Star Destroyer and Rey does that sharp turn out of it into the flip so Finn can get the shot. Rey also drags the Falcon in the sand 2 or 3 times, but that's just a fun bonus fact.
obi wan was helping him control the force as a ghost thats why he said "if you strike me down I will be more powerful then you can ever imagine" and luke never makes impossible shots again because obi wan isnt there to help him
I did have you?
>be the best pilot immediately
thats your title, no one else called him that. again, he gets bailed out by obi-won and han on the death star run.
>No. It's shown that they worked together.
Inasmuch as he pulled this trigger
>And once again, SHOW. We are SHOWN that she works on star ships
again, we are shown that she is a scavenger. If I collect katana's that doesn't make me a goddamn ninja.
>We are SHOWN her working for the guy that owns the Falcon.
as a scavenger
>This is an incredibly petty nitpick in an otherwise pretty-goddamn-good movie. The fact the protagonist being a MARY SUE is the biggest issue that people have is an indicator that there's not a whole lot of negatives in the film.
the biggest issue people have with it is that it's a carbon copy of ANH with worse characters and worse writing(rey being both).
If you like Rey and thinks she's a great character despite having no arch, no defining characteristics, no real character, then go ahead. and if you want to J.J.'s disturbia to Lucas's Rear Window, thats your business, but it's goofy to not just accept that just because rey is a mary sue, luke and anakin have to be as well. again, if you like a re-hash of something that came out 38 years ago, thats your business
The're hypocritical. It was an OK movie at best. Meh action scenes + failure to follow its own plot = bad movie.
People are theorycrafting just to make the movie more interesting than it actually was.
>same number Luke's piloting skills are mentioned in the theatrical release of ANH.
Nope, Luke's skill is mentioned several times: when he talks about attending the academy; when Ben mentions how he's heard he's become a skilled pilot; when he tells Han he's more than capable of piloting; when he mentions he used to bullseye womprats in his ship on Tattooine. You also see him playing with model ships in his spare time.
It's also about focus. ANH takes the time to highlight these character qualities whereas TFA says them in passing, usually in the middle of an action sequence. It makes it feel more like an afterthought.
Kylo Ren is objectively a better character than ANH Vader
Finn is a perfectly competent written character without a direct parallel in ANH
Rey is the only real weak link, and even then as you can see it's contentious how much of a weak link she really is
>You mean it controls your actions?
>Partially. But it also obeys your commands.
>Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
>This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct.
And Obi-Wan is talking about motivating Luke to fight Vader and the Empire. I mean probably the ghost part too, but there's a very obvious close up to a knowing expression on his face and he looks at Luke when he sacrifices himself.
>Kylo Ren is objectively a better character than ANH Vader
No fuckin way. Vader perfectly fills his role in ANH. He's irreplaceable.
Kylo is a distraction. Likely because they couldn't figure out what they wanted the movie to be about. Is it finding Luke? Or destroying Death Star 3? Or Kylo's family drama? It's too much on top of introducing a brand new cast and setting.
Kylo is PART of that brand new cast. That is why he's better than ANH vader as a character - ANH vader is just a presence who is there to establish that there is evil, Kylo is an actual character with depth and emotions and development. Calling him a distraction is misunderstanding the utmost basic concept of the movie - the fact that it's a character drama
>Kylo Ren is objectively a better character than ANH Vader
as a character, maybe. as a villian, definitely not, choose which one works better for star wars.
>Finn is a perfectly competent written character without a direct parallel in ANH
him and kylo are the two characters that have an arch in the film, yes. Everyone still prefers Han over Finn though
>Rey is the only real weak link, and even then as you can see it's contentious how much of a weak link she really is
Exactly my problem summed up. Finding Luke would have been an interesting and new (for the series) story. Instead we got uninteresting characters wandering around until the movie decides another Death Star should happen. Ending is weak as shit.
>choose which one works better for Star Wars
Why do you think they gave Vader character in Empire? Why do you think sheev in the prequels (generally considered to be one of the few good things in it) has a character to him and isn't just pure 'I'm evil muhahaha'?
Because being a good character is more important in star wars than being an impenetrable wall of evil
I like how you bring up Luke's toys but ignore Rey's. You got me, it's three times Luke's skills are mentions and twice it's by him. They don't mention it at the meal scene where they talk about the academy.
Rey's job for probably the better part of a decade is scavenging ships while having ships as her hobby. Her entire speechless 4 minute introduction shows you this. How are you going to ignore that?
You can't just remove a character from the context of the film. It's that context that defines whether they are a good character. Otherwise you might as well just write a biography.
Even so, I've no clue what you're talking about. Vader clearly has emotions. He's determined and confident and he shows anger. Kylo is confused and conflicted. This doesn't make him a better character, it makes him different.
>Why do you think sheev in the prequels (generally considered to be one of the few good things in it) has a character to him and isn't just pure 'I'm evil muhahaha'?
>sheev.....isn't just pure I'm evil muhahaha
thats fucking exactly what he is in the prequels though......
>Rey's job for probably the better part of a decade is scavenging ships while having ships as her hobby.
>If I collect pirate shit from the beach, I'll be a pirate too!
You can show an emotion and lack depth as a character. In ANH there is no explanation or motive for vader's psyche besides the fact that he's the bad guy and has some concept of defending his 'ancient religion'
With Kylo Ren they actually establish reasons for all of his emotions and you see how he as a character is tested when new information that challenges him is presented to him.
>They don't mention it at the meal scene where they talk about the academy.
Oh sorry, I thought you were capable of basic critical thinking.
Luke's abilities are mentioned four times before he ever gets in a cockpit. This character trait is hammered in over and over again throughout the entire film. His flying experience and skill is strongly implied when he's allowed to fly at all. None of this applies to Rey. her abilities are mentioned only when they become immediately relevant.
It's a meaningful difference. I don't know why you're so adamant on pretending it's the same.
>In ANH there is no explanation or motive for vader's psyche besides the fact that he's the bad guy
This applies equally to Kylo. Why is he a bad guy? We know he killed some people, but we also know Vader killed some people. He says, "I'll complete what you started," when staring at Vader's helmet, but it's not clear what he believes Vader started. Kylo wants to be strong and powerful, Vader wants the Empire to crush the rebellion and secure it's hold on the galaxy. Kylo is conflicted when he must choose whether or not to kill his father, Vader is confident when dueling his former master.
There's no difference here, except that Vader perfectly fills his role within the narrative. Kylo does not because the narrative of TFA is an absolute mess.
Are you saying if you spent ten years of your life scavenging tons of freight and one-man planes you don't think you'd know enough to theoretically fly one with or without experience? You should give yourself more credit anon.
You can't just say every time the academy is mentioned that means Luke is a good pilot, that isn't how that works.
You seem to be good at false equivalencies. When does Luke fly in ANH? The very end. When does Rey fly? A half hour into the movie.
Something else is also very different, Luke isn't surprised at his own ability while Rey is.
It's funny you call me out on ignoring meaningful differences and pretending things are the same.
His parents sent him to force bible camp
he has daddy issues as a result
Snoke seduced him to the dark side
he wants to be evil but is conflicted because it isn't naturally in his character and he still has some of the light side in him
They establish the reasoning for all of his insecurities and key moments. He actually develops during his key moments (vader doesn't change at all after killing obi). Just because kylo isn't 100% resolved in his evilness like vader doesn't mean he can't fit the role of a villain. Villains are allowed to have some depth and personal questioning
probably not. I could watch NFL/premier league/hockey/rugby union all my life and never be able to play with the pro's ever
You really think you're stupid. That's sad.
You wanna know what's funny about both our images? The Millenium Falcon has a less complicated dash than either of them.
>His parents sent him to force bible camp
>he has daddy issues as a result
Nowhere is this stated in the movie. Han and Leia talk about how they wish they hadn't sent him. That doesn't mean that sending him away gave him "daddy issues."
>Snoke seduced him to the dark side
And Darth Vader was seduced by the dark side. Obi-Wan states this very plainly. In neither case are we told why they were seduced, just that they were.
>he wants to be evil but is conflicted because it isn't naturally in his character and he still has some of the light side in him
And Vader isn't conflicted. He's confident in his abilities and this is shown time and time again.
>He actually develops during his key moments
He really doesn't. Kylo at the beginning of TFA behaves identically to Kylo at the end of TFA. Again, you're weighting Kylo's lack of confidence as more valuable than Vader's confidence. This is entirely arbitrary.
>Villains are allowed to have some depth and personal questioning
No one said otherwise. This doesn't make Kylo deep or his inner turmoil an appropriate inclusion in this film. Vader had this in Empire and it was executed flawlessly.
When kylo reads Rey's mind and finds out she thinks of his own father as a father figure, his tone of voice changes to slightly upset and he says 'he would've let you down'
That one line is enough to reveal he has daddy issues. Pay attention, TFA does a proper job of explaining character motivations in ways other than blatant exposition dialogue
>Kylo at the beginning of TFA behaves identically to Kylo at the end of TFA
Except he doesn't at all and you're just proving how little you understood his character. At the start Kylo is confident and strong and well composed, he has quick reaction time and can freeze a laser shot in midair
At the end of the movie he's both an emotional and physical wreck, and these factors lead to him being beaten by a new force user. He is clearly not at his peak performance abilities at the end of the movie, you're absolutely dense if you think nothing has changed in his character
You're yet to explain what about kylo's character was inappropriate besides the fact that he's not as confident as vader, which was literally shown to be part of his character
>You can't just say every time the academy is mentioned that means Luke is a good pilot, that isn't how that works.
That's exactly how that works. Just like seeing Luke play with model ships or Rey put on a pilot's helmet works. Use your brain.
>You seem to be good at false equivalencies.
The fuck are you talking about? I'm saying they aren't equivalent. You're saying they are.
The time at which each character gets behind the wheel is irrelevant. What's relevant is the time dedicated to establishing their abilities. Luke has that time, Rey does not. There are a couple extremely simple solutions. One, Poe doesn't disappear for half the movie. He escapes the wreckage with Finn and he flies the Falcon off Jakku. Two, Rey doesn't live in a busted AT-AT. She lives on the Falcon and it's clearly established she's scavenging partly in an effort to fix the ship and use it to leave Jakku.
The former dodges the issue entirely. We don't need Rey to suddenly be a crack pilot because she isn't the pilot. In the latter, we clearly establish Rey's skillset. If she's fixing the Falcon, she understands how it works. If she wants to take it, she must have put in the time to learn how to fly.
In either case, they probably shouldn't have immediately shoved her into a tense dogfight scenario. It makes it even more awkward.
>That one line is enough to reveal he has daddy issues
But not why. Vader believes himself superior to Obi-Wan, clearly communicating that during their duel. Their relationship is precisely what gives that fight weight.
>At the start Kylo is confident and strong and well composed, he has quick reaction time and can freeze a laser shot in midair
>At the end of the movie he's both an emotional and physical wreck
First, suffering from a blaster wound is not a character trait. Second, there's no indication that he's an emotional wreck. He's just as decisive in his fight with Rey and Finn as he was at the beginning of the film on Jakku. Him suddenly not using his force powers to his advantage is an oversight in the writing. But it's no different than Vader not just choking Obi-Wan to death.
>You're yet to explain what about kylo's character was inappropriate
Because the movie isn't about Kylo. Or if it's supposed to be, they really fucked it up. Vader perfectly fits ANH because he's exactly what ANH needs: a meaningful threat. Vader is the embodiment of the Empire. And we understand what the Empire is through him.
TFA doesn't have this. Death Star 3 shows up out of nowhere. It has no impact, and it's promptly dealt with by a squad of three people who don't really have any clue what they are doing. Kylo is constantly undermined and made to look foolish. The entire movie suffers because it never feels like there's anything at stake.