He wasn't that bad actually. Isn't Anakin supposed to be really weird and fucked up? Anakin in the prequels seemed like someone who could have had a pretty solid life but was emotionally stunted and could not handle loss. Hayden did an okay job.
>>64644612 No. Anakin was SUPPOSED to be a tragic hero. Tragic heroes are supposed to be people you want to root for, people who are exceptional, usually great leaders beloved by all, who suffer the unforeseen consequences of seemingly reasonable choices.
Simply being put in charge by Palpatine to expose a conspiracy in the republic, and finding out his friends were involved would have been enough. Choosing loyalty to duty and order as he saw it would have been a much more compelling, and relatable reason for him and Obi-Wan to become enemies, and for him to loose Padme who was a traitor, say she was thought to have been shipped off to a prison camp and died en route or something (but was secretly smuggled away). It would have also explained why he spends the next 20 years being a loyal imperial hardass.
But instead we're given a convenient vision of the future, and a contrived story about dark side life magic and Padme's C-section.
Luke chose his friends over power. Anakin should have chosen power over his friends. Pottery.
>>64644871 >up until ghost rider 2 he actually cared about his career He still does. He cares about working. Dude's got a work ethic. And I'll bet he has a shitload of fun in these craptastic low-budget flicks, too. They're probably way less controlled than bigger Hollywood deals.
>>64644911 You can add a thread. It gets added to the catalogue. But it gets 404ed when you click on it. And I don't think any of the old threads are getting bumped off either. Mods and Japanese Moot need to wake up.
>>64644612 >Isn't Anakin supposed to be really weird and fucked up? >be a slave till you're 9 >be separated from your mother and indoctrinated by emotionless, celibate monks >jedi treat you like shit because you're different (joined too long) and masters don't trust you (as seen in episode 1 where they judge him like a piece of meat) >be told to suppress all your emotions >be groomed by the greatest manipulator in the galaxy, and he's your only non-jedi friend and the only one that's not stupidly hard on you all the time for your humanly mistakes >be given a god complex because you're told you're literally the chosen one and soon to be most powerful person of all time >have nightmares about your mother suffering and dying, but be told by jedi to ignore it >finally get the chance to see your mom >she was tortured to death (and possibly raped) and dies in your arms >have to fight on the front lines of a galactic war for 3 years >have premonitions about your wife dying the same way the ones about your mom came true >freak out >jedi still don't trust you, ask you to spy on your best non-jedi friend >put you on council but don't promote you to master, even though you're top 5 strongest jedi in the galaxy, making you seem like a joke >still turn in sith lord who promised to save your wife because of your loyalty to the jedi >jedi don't trust you again and don't take you to arrest the most powerful villain in the galaxy >go to help anyway and see jedi, who was a dick to you your whole life, about to break his own rules and murder a prisoner, fucking hypocrites >see last chance to save your beloved wife, freak out in a split second decision and cut douchebag jedi's hand off >now feel like you've fucked up so hard you have no choice but join the dark side, hey at least you can save your wife
People that bitch about Anakin are as bad as the morons who defend MaRey Sue and Star Wars 7: A Newer Hope in IMAX 3D
Palpatine knew he'd get his hands on Anakin since episode 1, and considering the guy was fucking smart and powerful enough to become ruler of all the known universe, Anakin never had a chance. The Jedi were too fucking inflexible with their stiff rules and fucked him over completely.
Even Yoda, one of everyone's favorite Star Wars characters, was a total asshole to him in episode 1.
>>64645197 >you will never be a young actor cast by George Lucas in Star Wars episode 7 as Ben Kenobi >you will never play one of the most polarizing characters in fiction >you will never get to do tons of coke and bang mad 10's after episodes 7, 8, and 9 come out >you will never have a mostly ruined career after this >you will never get to sit down with Mark Hamill and Hayden Christensen and laugh about your ruined careers while being proud of playing some of the most iconic characters of all time just kill me now
>>64645021 Yes, but that's not very heroic. It's just pathetic and sad. The great Anakin Skywalker as described by Obi-Wan was like the best of the Jedi, the 'Lancelot' of the Old Republic. That is the image the people had of him for decades until the prequels. How a guy like that becomes Darth Vader is potentially one of the more interesting character stories in film, but it was ruined with a poor concept, and a confused mixing of themes.
All we saw of the Clone Wars was the Battle of Geonosis, where he went 1v1 against a Sith Lord, which is pretty fucking amazing that he held his own at his age.
And then him rescuing the Chancellor. Where he showed off the fact that he was one of, if not the best Pilot the Republic had. And one of the greatest warriors considering he straight up murked Dooku on his own after Kenobi got knocked the fuck out.
At the start of RotS, fucking Grievous even mentioned how he expected someone of his reputation to be 'older.'
>>64645335 To be fair, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith deal more with Anakin's personal life rather than his exploits during the Clone Wars. The Clone Wars cartoon from 2003 really showed off how great of a warrior Anakin was back in the day.
>>64645503 I'm not talking about war, or doing back flips. See, that's the whole problem. Everyone knows Vader is a badass warrior, that's fine, but what made the whole thing interesting is that he used to be good. GOOD. Not just a badass warrior that happened to fight for the republic.
>>64645021 I really wish Lucas had gone in a totally different direction with Anakin for the prequels.
I get what he was going for and to his credit, Anakin is totally sympathetic. He had a hard life.
Thing is, he just doesn't come off as Darth Vader at all. He comes across as a whiny, insecure fag. Not necessarily a bad character but you absolutely cannot watch the OT and imagine that character being the same Anakin as the one in the PT.
Hayden Christensen seems like an alright guy though.
Anakin had a pretty hard fall right there. Can change a lot in a person. Especially with more age.
Really, I can barely relate to my younger self these days, and I didn't go through that kind of trauma. He is an older man as Vader after all. He lost the bitchiness and came to grips with life's cold realities.
>>64645669 >>64645746 i think 20 years as the evil, merciless right hand of a ruthless space dictator who's pissed about his shit past and only has galactic order to live for logically follows episode 3 anakin
but i totally see your point, glad you're not one of the >HURR THAT SAND LINE WAS SO DUMB I COULD WRITE BETTER STAR WARS THAN LUCAS WHY IS ANAKIN SO WHINEY fags
i think his conversations with padme about how the senate sucks and how HE'D rule everything perfectly also help my side, but like i said you make a good point
desu I wish in the prequels the Empire was already established and were leading the clone wars and that there were actually stakes instead of lolrobots
I also wish we met Anakin at Hayden's age, instead of as a 6 year old
I also wish that there weren't a million Jedi, and just a small amount which explains why no one knows who they are in the OT despite having their giant castle filled with like 20,000 Jedi in the centre of the Galaxy's capital
>>64645953 Yes, the Jedi should have already been a dying order by the PT, working as advisers and protectors to prominent families and heads of state, y'know, like the Samurai they were inspired by, not InterGalactic Police Force.
>>64645943 It is tragic, but not heroic tragedy in the Homeric sense. The OT follows a classic heroic narrative, but the PT doesn't know what the fuck it's doing, because Lucas doesn't know classical story structure--hell, his wife at the time was the one who rewrote Ep 4 to be a classical hero's journey.
>>64644866 >Simply being put in charge by Palpatine to expose a conspiracy in the republic, and finding out his friends were involved would have been enough. Choosing loyalty to duty and order as he saw it would have been a much more compelling, and relatable reason for him and Obi-Wan to become enemies, and for him to loose Padme who was a traitor, say she was thought to have been shipped off to a prison camp and died en route or something (but was secretly smuggled away). It would have also explained why he spends the next 20 years being a loyal imperial hardass. Fucking this. OT Vader is a samurai in service to a master. Everything he does is out of loyalty and in pursuit of galactic order. The prequels instead protray him as an ineffectual emotional wreck who's "fall" is both sudden and arbitrary. It never feels like he really makes a choice, and it wouldn't be understandable within the provided context if he did.
>>64645746 Precisely. Anakin would've worked better in the prequels if he were less angsty, more likable, and more of a badass, for lack of a better term. You'd really feel the fall of grace better if Anakin were a genuinely respectable person, someone you could actually look up to if you were a kid or consider someone you could trust your life with if you were an adult.
I don't think we needed to see Anakin when he was a little kid or when he was a teen at all. Should've shown him as a confident, successful adult right from the start, obviously with a dark side too.
>>64645753 That's a good point. Anakin kinda comes across as a shitty pupil aside from one or two scenes. Obi-Wan clearly cares for him but it's to the point where Obi comes across as that much more saintly, believing in someone who obviously needs a good smack in the face and a lecture or two.
>>64644866 >>64646164 >Simply being put in charge by Palpatine to expose a conspiracy in the republic, and finding out his friends were involved would have been enough. So retroactively making the Jedi bad guys?
If it was just about loyalty, why was Luke so insistent on finding the light and good side in him, as opposed to appealing to his duty as a father, or something else? They made it pretty clear that Vader was under another influence than simple "fealty". The Emperor was nefarious enough, he was fully ready to let Luke be his right hand man in Vader's stead.
It's the dark side of the force, not bushido code.
>>64646186 Ehhhhhh I don't think the children killing was too much, but the way it was presented seemed needlessly edgy. The kids are just chilling then he walks in and draws his sabre without saying anything.
It would have been better if they saw him slaying other jedi then come out and try to stop him but he had no choice but to kill them.
>>64646349 They wouldn't have been viewed as bad if they uncovered say, a plot to build the Death Star, a plan to institute a military dictatorship, perhaps the deals were coordinated with criminal organizations like Black Sun providing slave labor, or perhaps the entire concept of the Clone Wars could have been rewritten. Perhaps the Clone Wars could have just been a giant civil war within the Republic.
Point is, the Jedi, who should have been a rather small group, could have simply been allied with "good guy" factions in the republic--like people from Alderaan--who found out what Palpatine was doing, but a full frontal attack on him wouldn't have been possible because too many systems supported him. See, suddenly the rise of the Empire doesn't seem as retarded and instant as it was in the movie.
>>64646277 >That's actually pretty depressing, that after years of being Palpatine's right hand man, that he could become somebody as cold and ruthless as Darth Vader. I mean, he felt betrayed by the Jedi, his master / brother / father figure made him a a quadruple amputee burn victim, he was led to believe he killed his wife and children. Not to mention he used to be a happy and handsome hero that became trapped in a full body suit for 20 years.
That's gotta make him not only bitter but unbelievably cold.
>>64645753 unfortunately, episode 2 was all about him being a rebellious teenager against his father figure, but at least in the opening of episode 3 they seemed like the tight, galaxy-saving bros they were meant to be.
Wish there was an episode 2.5 with more clone wars. And no, not that CGI abomination
>>64645810 Oh fuck I didn't realize this was supposed to be sad and kept on laughing at most of that.
>>64646358 I think shrouding his entrance into the Jedi in mystery would work, with some hints dropped here and there as to how he became a Jedi could work. But more over, he should be a real man. A charming, charismatic badass who might be seen as one of the Jedi's greatest among their ranks. But I think it'd be great if the Jedi would seriously dick him over as well. You wouldn't even have to contradict that part of the PT either. Just have the majority of them not able to recognize his talents. Maybe the Jedi Order are a bunch of pricks who screw him over at every turn or something like that.
And yeah, giving him a bit of a cruel streak and susceptible to making the mistake or two would make sense as well. He could come off as charming and likable but under the right circumstances, when dealing with a certain enemy, he might come across as ruthless and cold as Vader could, prompting Obi-Wan to lecture him and tell him to calm down or something. There should always be the sense that something just isn't right with him.
>>64646470 fair enough, i personally loved anakin's episode 3 fall and the dark parts of episode 2 (wiping out sand people tribes was 100% justified, fuck them), and while im the first to defend anything anakin-related he was pretty dull in episode 1
Anakin is a terrible character and a terrible performance, but I don't put the blame on Hayden. It was the Pottery King who decided doing an 100% blatant ripoff of James Dean was acceptable in the 2000's.
Hey, you know who can do a good approximation of James Dean? Literally nobody. Also it doesn't help that George genuinely has no idea how to direct actors.
>>64646602 >Vader doesn't owe anything to him. There's no way of knowing this from the original trilogy. We know Vader does everything the emperor asks without question. If he was just straight up evil, there'd be no reason for him to demonstrate such loyalty. He's clearly a man with a code.
>>64646744 And I think that while the Emperor exploited Luke's love of his friends, he should have been written to exploit Anakin's loyalty to the Republic (appealing to his heroic nature). Anakin should have been given an easy out. Kill the traitors (even if they're your friends), end the war, rule the galaxy.
>>64646790 >It's a tense master/apprentice relationship What tension? There's never any tension. Vader doesn't even flinch when the Emperor tells Luke to kill his father and assume his place. Every single action he takes is in direct service to the emperor and in pursuit of an unopposed Empire.
>he throws him to his death ffs Literally only when his son's life is on the line. Or do you think he would have done the same thing had Palp been zapping any other fuckin guy?
He needs someone like Kasdan to filter his ideas into something that makes sense. Pure, uncut Lucas is too much. Every time I try and go back to the prequels to find something watchable about them I just end up hating them more.
He's the living, breathing refutation of the idea that auteur theory is inherently superior. Some artists just need other people to work with and collaborate on, otherwise you end up with the PT or those Matrix sequels.
At the very least he needs a co-director who can work with actors. He really cannot direct people at all, it's no surprise he wants to make everything CGI. The only halfway decent performances in the PT are Ewan's uncanny Alec Guiness impression and Ian McDiermand going so far into the realm of camp even Lucas' autism couldn't contain him.
This is the problem with Star Wars discussions: you can never talk about the films because people have to drag in a ton of lore shit.
If you have a series of films that have to lean on other material to make sense, they're bad films. Simple as that. Doesn't matter what it is.
And just because it's presented in the movie somewhere doesn't mean it's presented well. Even if you can envision Anakin turning evil, it's pretty hard to envision him turning into the CHARACTER Darth Vader.
>>64647036 >I think a bushido samurai would have valued his intense loyalty to his master over the life of his estranged son he has no connection to other than lineage and a connection to a "lighter" past Is this a serious argument? If your position is that he has no real tie to make him give a shit about Luke, then what does loyalty or lack thereof have to do with anything? If he's just some random schmuck dark sider, what reason would he have to save some kid?
No, the entire point was that he was intensely loyal to the Emperor, but when he discovered who Luke was, that loyalty faltered. Again, that's why literally everything we see Vader do is in direct service to the Emperor/Empire except in the one instance in which he acts to save his son.
Nope. It's because Luke's premise was correct, he had light side left in him, it was triggered seeing his son die, and then into the trash the Emperor, and his Dark Side allegiance, went. It's spelled out for you pretty clearly in the movie, weebster.
>>64646110 >if only in ROTS he purged the jedi temple of all adults instead of children (lucas going a little too far with the evil on that one) i'd have been on Anakin's side the entire time
Fun fact, the novelization clarifies that Anakin wasn't gonna kill the kids until one of them called him "Master Skywalker"... "Master". Anakin wasn't a Master, remember? He was really, really pissed about not being a Master. That kid made him snap unintentionally, that's semi-canon.
>>64647963 What does this have to do with loyalty? Vader can be loyal to the Emperor while still embracing the Dark Side. There's no contradiction there.
Once again, if he was only loyal to the Dark Side, there'd be no reason for him to support the Emperor as he had. If it was just about being a bad dude, he wouldn't be talking about bringing order to the galaxy. There's clearly more at work than some vague evil quality.
>>64648786 >choose power >rescued him >taught him everything Why are any of these necessary components? The anon you quoted was proposing an entirely different trilogy. There's no reason to believe all those other elements introduced in the prequel trilogy would carry over.
>>64645669 >he just doesn't come off as Darth Vader at all.
Darth Vader was an evil guy who loved blowing up planets and killing people. You need a backstory to that, people aren't just born that way. People who become monsters are usually whiny and insecure, as vader was, he just was able to project himself through his costume.
Look at the school shootings and people like Elliot. These people were all insecure whiners too.
The prequels give us a reason to why Anakin got this way, instead of the usual "well he was just a bad evil dude from the start"
>>64648907 >Darth Vader was an evil guy who loved blowing up planets and killing people He most certainly was not. Did Vader ever once seem as though he enjoyed what he did? I know one can't exactly emote through a mask, but Vader would still come off as cold and unfeeling without it. I understand what Lucas was trying to go for, with Anakin having his emotions "ripped" out of him, but honestly the transition from Anakin to Vader was so jarring that it made no sense at all. Instead of portraying him the way he did, Lucas should have made Anakin borderline sociopathic from the start. Someone with whom the audience could sympathize, but nonetheless emotionally detached. This detachment from the "greatness" of the Jedi embedded in the minds of every youngling to set foot in the Jedi Temple (except him, of course) would allow him to meditate on the true nature of the Force: that the Jedi, in trying to bring balance to the galaxy, were upsetting the balance of the Force, which he would hold in much higher regard than most. In the end, it would be Anakin, not Palpatine, who convinces himself that in order to bring balance to the Force (as the prophecy foretold) that he would have to become one with the Dark Side. In fact, as much as I love Ian McDiarmid, I feel that Palpatine shouldn't have been such a heavy player in the prequels at all. Maybe he was an ancient spirit of the Dark Side that Anakin awoke to complete his destiny. I don't know. Point is, I literally cannot perceive Anakin and Vader as the same person, and whether that was Lucas' intention or not, it comes across as hackneyed and muddled.
>>64649347 I'm with you on your general sentiment, but really, this whole "balance the force" prophesy shit was stupid. It was a stupid idea. It only complicated the story, and was a forced narrative device to Christen Anakin from the start, to deem him by fiat a magical hero instead of showing it through story and character progression.
He can't just be a really talented Jedi who is extraordinarily strong in the force (not because of midichloreans, or because of a prophesy). Nope, he has to be Jesus freaking Christ born of a virgin, and destined to somehow rectify the fundamental energy source of all existence.
There were elements of the Dark Side he wasn't attuned with or knowledgeable of yet. That begot a master relationship with someone more accelerated than he, the Emperor. It's a symbiotic master/apprentice relationship. The Dark Side mired his thinking and bound them together.
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