Okay, so if this guy can stop a fucking BLASTER BOLT midair, and he can force grab or whatever that officer guy and drag him towards him midair, totally against the guy's will, he obviously has a pretty solid control of the force. Technically more than Vader, who never did more than lightly choke a guy.
SO WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T HE EVEN TRY THIS SHIT AGAINST FINN AND REY???
>b-but his entire character is about how unfocused he is and how he has no confidence and Rey already outmatched him once
Okay so you literally don't even try? And what about Finn? In what universe would you approach melee distance with a guy holding a lightsaber, no matter how much you thought it would be an easy win? Just fucking force throw shit at the guy.
Fuck there was a lot wrong with this movie but that made my eyes roll so hard they fell out of their sockets. Even when he's clearly losing the upper hand against either of them, he never once tries desperately to throw a rock at them or something. And don't get me started on three people involved in a fight with laser swords that cut through metal like butter all surviving with minor grazing wounds. And then deus ex chasm opening up perfectly between Rey and Kylo without Rey so much as falling down.
Like, there's plenty of pedantic shit you can say, but these are just stupid decisions made by the producers to make the movie more "dramatic" or "interesting". You didn't HAVE to make these choices that are so fucking hairbrained they fall apart the minute you turn your brain on.
Because white people can't win in Hollywood, are you knew here?
>/tv/ doesn't understand this scene
are you guys fucking retarded
>It repeatedly shows him clutching his wound from Chewie's blaster which was shown throughout the movie to be extremely powerful. Chewie fucked stormtroopers up bad with it, but when he shot Kylo, Kylo not only survived but he also went on to hold his own in a fight against two people.
>Technically more than Vader, who never did more than lightly choke a guy.
implying it doesn't take more finesse to slowly force choke a guy to death. and Vader force choked a muthafucka through a tv screen from across the galaxy bruh
And lost all control of the force? You'd think if he was so badly injured he stood no chance in a fight he would have fucked off instead of being the aggressor against two people.
He tossed Rey 20 feet in the air after getting shot and he didn't look hindered in the way he moved. He was still way more powerful than Finn and Rey combined and him losing is just cheap deus ex machina writing
Nigga half his ribs were busted, he was bleeding, he was emotionally fucked up from murdering his dad, and sperging out hardcore because muh grandpa's lightsaber.
Can you really not figure out why he might not be in top form?
There's a chasm(lol) of difference between "he had a lot of reasons to lose so it's reasonable" and "he walked toward a guy who had a laser sword instead of first trying to throw the guy around like a ragdoll"
Like at absolute best it's incredibly convenient character retardation and horribly annoying to anyone who kept their brain turned on. People who are just amused by shiny things probably just liked lightsabers hitting each other and didn't care why. If you do, that's fine, but it makes the movie stupider.
>the force did it
I mean yeah I guess this point is irrefutable in this universe but fuck couldn't they have TRIED to make it a little reasonable? How is there even any tension if the force is consciously doing everything?
He just killed his dad, was scared of Rey's untapped power, and got shot by the epic bowcaster. You know, the weapon that literally blows shit up when it hits? Of all the criticisms you could legitimately make of the movie, people seem to love the fucking retarded ones, i.e. why did he lose the fight, it used broad themes and plot points from the original movie, Kylo Ren is too emotional to be intimidating, etc.
Movie was pretty good. Some of it was a little to neat and tidy for its own good, Rey is suspiciously powerful for having no training, they pointed at the fact that she was a female too often to hammer home the intentionally progressive casting, maybe it was a bit too derivative. That's a fair way to criticize a movie, not "the guy who just got shot in the gut with a powerful weapon wasn't fighting at peak capacity" you fucking retard.
>He just killed his dad, was scared of Rey's untapped power, and got shot by the epic bowcaster
And after all these things he was still able to toss Rey in the air and knock her out with a flick of the wrist, 5 minutes before getting beaten by her for no apparent reason (other than LOL SHE CLOSED HER EYES AND THOUGHT OF THE FORCE XD)
That fight and its result made no fucking sense whatsoever
He was having another one of his autistic shitfits.
Did you not watch the rest of the movie? He wasn't thinking straight, he was in full on REEEEEEEE FUCKING JEDI mode. I mean he just killed his dad, and now this backwater twat and a fucking traitor are coming at him with his precious.
Combine that with physical trauma and a shitload of adrenaline and you get what we saw.
because kylo considered it an insult that an uninitiate would use a lightsaber and wanted to defeat him in lightsaber combat.
he clearly loves using the thing so when the oppurtunity presented itself why woulden't he fight in the most honurabru way possible
using the force is for P2W shitters, real men fight with sabers.
remember this whole concept is based on samurai films.
OP here, nobody said he should have won the fight. I mean, you can make that argument, since both of his opponents were totally inexperienced ESPECIALLY in lightsaber combat, but I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that his first move wasn't force powers. Your argument that he was hurt or unfocused only serves to make mine stronger - all the more reason he should have tried advanced ranged shit instead of going to melee with BOTH of them.
He got one good sucker punch, and he was very clearly losing steam by the minute. Also, yea, she did use the force to overpower him. Luke had been using the force for a few years at most in RotJ and he kicked Vader's ass, who had been the most powerful force user for decades. If you're going to use this criticism, you must not like the OT very much either.
>he wanted to best the lightsaber users in true honorable samurai combat
Oh, okay, so this honor and respect for lightsabers of his is surely shown or foreshadowed in the movie, right?
I swear, fans of this movie love to just fill in the shitty plot holes with fan theories and claim the movie so much as hinted at it. Being able to make shit up in your head as to why the movie isn't stupid does not make it a good movie. Kylo literally never once showed honor or compassion for his opponents, and you guys make this argument in the same breath that you say he's this emotional immature child. Why the fuck would he be honorable, then? Wouldn't he be desperate to end the fights as soon as possible? Doubly so if he was so badly injured.
He didn't close his eyes, he practiced using the Force with Obi Wan before, it was established that he was an good pilot and he said himself that he's able to make that shot because he bullseyed womp rats that are no bigger than the Death Star's exhaust port.
just a reminder that all faggots comparing Rey to ANH's Luke did not watch ANH
How the fuck is using the force a "tactical calculation"? Like I've said, Ren is the one who approached Finn, Ren was the first one to turn on his saber, he chose the fight. You want the guy dead, you use the force. You see the guy has a laser sword and you're currently bleeding out, but you approach him and dare him to fight you in melee?
It's fucking stupid and if it doesn't ruin the movie for you it's okay but for fuck's sake stop defending it like the whole thing was intentional. They had a lightsaber fight because it was the climax of a Star Wars movie and the producers know the general public doesn't give a shit but it was stupid, plain and simple. Five minutes of thinking renders the entire climax retarded.
She practiced using the force from the moment she met Kylo, which was explained to her by Maz, and the movie pretty heavily hints that she may have been introduced to it early in life, which is why she was put into hiding when Kylo first turned to the dark side.
Kylo Ren's sword has weaker cutting power than the average saber. The larger the blade(s) of your saber is, the weaker it's cutting power.
Finn is likely force sensitive so he might have good, but untrained reflexes but if Kylo threw or shot things quickly ay him like with a blaster he probably wouldn't be able to dodge stuff. There's not much to throw at him on the ground it seemed like.
He could have still possibly stopped him from moving using the force, but maybe Finn's emotional intensity would somehow be enough for that to not be successful.
The fight makes more sense if somehow Rey decreased his power somehow when he was trying to read her mind, but this seems like it's unprecedented in Star Wars.
The shit you don't understand is that star wars was never completely stuck to logic. You can bitch like this pretty much about every scene that the first trilogy if you look closely. Like the death of Ben that was absolutely ridiculous. But its a movie and its entertainment. It's purpose is to disconnect your mind for a while. All you do is keep making it work on trivial bullshit. I tell you what, maybe kylo just didn't though that trough. Maybe he needed to think fast because he felt cornered, I don't know, maybe he forgot. Never happened to you in a game? You have this awesome one bullet problem solving weapon, but you keep firing the rifle.
Let's say you're Kylo Ren.
You've just killed your own father and are probably a little emotional unstable. And you have a gigantic hole in your gut.
Then this motherfucker standing in front of you who has betrayed everything you stand for decides to whip out your grandfathers lightsaber who has had absolutely no force training.
Undoubtedly you'd be pissed.
You wouldn't want to force throw a pebble at him. You'd want to take out your own laser sword and beat that traitor to a pulp.
>She practiced using the force from the moment she met Kylo
In the same way Luke was practicing force lightning when getting fried by Sheev in RotJ. There was no practice, Kylo started interrogating her and she was able to probe his mind without any problems 15 seconds later
Nerds even ruined this one with their awful EU bullshit. Google that scene and you'll find nerds arguing over whether the force allows you to block/absorb blaster shots, or whether Vader's hand being made of some space obsidian material allowed him to do it.
its been a constant throughout the entire series you mongoloid. sith are evil but they have a code just like the jedi.
he wanted to end the fight feeling he beat his opponent on equal ground. you clearly don't understand the appeal of competition and mastery.
>the movie pretty heavily hints that she may have been introduced to it early in life
Reminder that we see her being left on Jakku at a very young age. Her being able to master the Force before reaching the age of 5 is just slightly less bullshit than what we got in the TFA finale
Because he never wanted to kill Rey. He feared that her powers would quickly outgrow his own and he wanted to bring her to the dark side of the force and get his own apprentice. Furthermore, we as the audience are lead to think whether or not this would bring Ben back to the lightside or cast Rey into the darkside, as demonstrated by the conflicting colors of lightsabers in his blatantly mirror-like eyes to reflect this fact.
This film is nothing but simple poetry, there is very little not to get.
>Finn is likely force sensitive so he might have good, but untrained reflexes but if Kylo threw or shot things quickly ay him like with a blaster he probably wouldn't be able to dodge stuff. There's not much to throw at him on the ground it seemed like.
Why throw anything at him? Rip the lightsaber out of his hand with the force, end the fight right there.
See this is in line with what I said earlier about you guys just making shit up in your head to fill the plot holes in this movie. I don't need JJ to beat me over the head with it, but this shit is literally not even so much as hinted at.
And anyway, like I said, Ren approached Finn. Ren turned on the saber first. He probably didn't even see the saber in Finn's hand, he definitely didn't see him "whip it out" because Finn didn't do it until Ren did. Hence, Ren's first choice when bleeding from a giant torso wound was to walk up to the guy and cut him down, all of which would probably tear your fucking wound open.
All this instead of lifting a finger and tearing the guy in half with your mind.
I understand one is more dramatic and makes for a better movie, but it wouldn't have killed them to make it reasonable. Maybe add a scene where he shows he doesn't really have that much control over the force, especially when he's upset. But no, they wanted to have their cool Vader analogue to he stops laser blasts with his mind and throws guys around when he wants to, but forgets about it when his life is at stake.
It's just stupid.
Alright you dumbfucks, let me clarify here.
I like Kylo Ren. He was the only character that I wanted to see in the new movie and he didn't disappoint. Was he a dominant badass like Vader? No. In this particular movie he was honestly pretty poorly done as a villain, but I still enjoyed him not as a villain but as a third, fallen protagonist. He lost and that only accentuates his character arc. He'll come back in the next movie more powerful and more angry.
In theory Kylo could have just pulled the lightsaber from Finn's grip or pushed him into a tree and stabbed him, considering Finn doesn't have the Force to defend himself. But he didn't. Why? To showcase a lightsaber duel. Same with Rey. He pushed her earlier into a tree and knocked her out for a bit. He probably could have again, but he didn't to allow for a flashy lightsaber duel. The ones Star Wars is famous for.
They left glaring holes in the scene but it was for the sake of cool shit. I liked it for what it was, but looking at all will show you how much better it could have been.
This. All the JJ apologists have are mental gymnastics and grasping at non existing straws.
They needed a lightsaber fight so they shot a lightsaber fight without putting too much thought into it. Deal with it
Hoe come that Rey master the Force so fucking quickly while having no idea that it existed, and be so good with lightsabers when she had never held one at all, and even refused to hold it.
Atleast Luke was mentored by Obi Wan for a while, even after "death", and Yoda aswell.
He in no way managed to master the Force that quickly and that much like Rey did
This is a fucking catastrophe of plot pacing
>It's purpose is to disconnect your mind for a while.
>LITERALLY just turn your brain off and enjoy it dude!!!
I'm betting none of you redditors do the same with the prequels.
When exactly is it implied that the Sith have any kind of code?
The only thing that comes close is that rule of two but it doesn't really mean shit since the Sith don't give a shit about it and break it all the time
Like I said, Reddit WILL defend this.
I'll give you the womprat thing, I forgot about that.
The difference between Rey and Luke is that Luke had what, a 5-10 minute training session in the Force prior to that? The film established that Rey was a good pilot, I believe. Plus she was shown to be skilled with hand to hand weapons combat (I know, I know, a staff isn't the exact same as a lightsaber). She was familiar with Jedi legends so she'd probably already heard about a lot of what they were capable of, whether true or not. It wouldn't take much for her to try a technique on her own that she'd heard they could do (mind trick, movements, etc). Luke never really had to defend himself. He hadn't heard of Jedi or at least anything specific about them.
You're also forgetting we don't know if Rey had prior training when she was a child. Or the part that she was able to see into Ren's mind so she either was able to see some techniques and/or he unlocked the ability for her.
>but forgets about it when his life is at stake.
his desire to test his skill as the grandson of darth vader overcame his desire for personal safety. its shown that he's emotioanlly unstable .
also force users are apperently super human, so its possible the wound wasn't that severe due to a combination of expensive protective material and force hand waving.
he got cocky, which is consistant with his character. its also obvious he wanted to train rey not kill her.
What? Where? Show me one instance. Darth Maul in the Duel of the Fates is the closest thing to a Sith actively seeking swordfighting with Jedi, are you really referencing the prequels to make your point?
All this Sith shit is EU bullshit, anyway, which Disney has already said isn't canon. Darth Vader was a Sith, which is a Jedi but for the dark side of the force. He never did any of this honor swordfight shit. he fucked around with Luke because Luke was his son. He killed Obi-Wan because they used to be friends. He didn't actively seek our Jedi to prove himself or some horseshit.
Because Rey was there at the Jedi Temple Massacre which prompted Luke to go into hiding. I will bet thousands of dollars that we will find out Rey was a padawan at an early age and then was sent off to bumblefuck Jakku for the same reason Luke was on Tattooine: To keep hidden.
Luke will unlock her Padawan years with some Force ability, just as he likely used the force to wipe or cloud her memory. The Vision she has when she finds the lightsaber doesn't just predict the future but shows hints of her past.
She was able to read some of Ren's mind because Ren did not know she was force-sensitive until he tried to. This back-fired and, probably due to lack of training or his own idiocy, exposed some of his own memories and immediate fears when continually attempting to probe her mind.
This probably imprinted some concepts of what the force can do, and/or unlocked some of her repressed Padawan years.
This is pretty simple shit. /tv/ is amazingly retarded.
This fucking headcanon is like, undefeatable in an argument because you assume the characters are omniscient viewers like the audience is.
Who has ever seen a jedi use force persuade? Like three people in the galaxy? Obi-Wan uses it on some stormtroopers, then nothing for like two whole movies, then Luke uses it on guys in Jabba's palace. When Luke uses it he's literally the last jedi in existence. Hell, everyone in Jabba's palace died. Why would anybody spread stories about force persuade around?
>Fan fiction guessing to cover up plot holes
>This is pretty simple shit. /tv/ is amazingly retarded.
>malnourished scavenger Rey fights off two men twice her size
> malnourished scavenger Rey, who one might assume has hardly piloted much at all on Jakku, easily outmaneuvers two TIE fighters while flying through a scrapyard and though the inside of a Star Destroyer, even doing a “back-flip” maneuvers to destroy one of the TIE fighters
> malnourished scavenger Rey is a master mechanic that can quickly identify problems with complex ships, like the Millennium Falcon, that she's never been on before
> malnourished scavenger Rey gets full on Force-vision from touching a lightsaber; hears Obiwan speaking
> malnourished scavenger Rey has never used a gun before, fumbles at first, then suddenly starts dropping storm troopers left and right like she’s Jesse James
>Kylo Ren, highly trained through years of study as a Jedi, a Sith, a Knight of Ren, can barely mind read Rey, yet she mind reads his mind easily in return
> malnourished scavenger Rey does a Jedi mind trick on Stormtrooper guard out of nowhere
>Trained Force user Kylo Ren has trouble pulling a lightsaber towards him, but it rockets towards malnourished scavenger Rey from 40 meters
>100-pound malnourished-scavenger-turned-barely-trained swordwoman beats a 200- pound highly-trained Sith/Jedi swordsman
firstly they also use sabers as much if not more than the jedi which means they probably value satisfaction through combat more than absolute victory by any means possible. why didnt darth maul just use cheap bullshit instead of facing 2 jedi at once?
Rey force presuading the guard is in there solely for the fanservice. It's just another thing from the OT that they rape for nostalgia to trick people into thinking they like the movie. When people recognize something, they like it because it implies they're smart for noticing it, or because people generally enjoy repetition from youth. This is why Barney does the same thing like five times an episode, it's simple repetition which works wonders on children.
This doesn't make the movie good. Entertaining to people who breath through their mouth does not equal good. The scriptwriters don't care about what makes sense, they only have a couple hours to cram in as many references as they can to make dosh.
You could say this shit about any jedi/sith fight in the series, you dense motherfucker.
Why did Vader and Obi Wan have a lightsaber battle when they could've just used their more effective force abilities? Why didn't Vader use his force choke to subdue Luke rather than risk a lightsaber fight with him?
The out of universe answer is that the whole jedi/sith thing is supposed to parallel the old feudal style of chivalrous combat in both the west and the east, knights and samurai and shit. Just as they could've used crossbows or kunai or whatever the fuck to quickly dispatch their enemies, they chose not to and instead focus on a kind of honorable dueling match with equal footing. Again, look at the saber fights in the OT. They all start with the two combatants squaring up and matching each others pace, showing that there will be no cheap shots or dishonorable tactics. Just so, Kylo was confident that he would need no crutches to beat Rey and Finn even with his injuries, and so he sought to defeat them in the traditional manner, which is in line with his character as an over-ambitious pretender to Vader's legacy.
The in universe answer is that it's cool as shit, you fucking autist. Stop overanalysing a fucking sci-fi flick.
>The scriptwriters don't care about what makes sense, they only have a couple hours to cram in as many references as they can to make dosh.
To be honest, I wouldn't give a shit about making sense either after seeing what kind of bullshit fans are capable of spewing in order to defend lackluster writing
> Rey was there at the Jedi Temple Massacre which prompted Luke to go into hiding
>Rey was a padawan at an early age and then was sent off to Jakku to keep hidden.
>Luke used the force to wipe or cloud her memory
>The Vision she has when she finds the lightsaber doesn't just predict the future but shows hints of her past.
Please, prove any of these.
Literally the entire climax could've been fixed with a 7 second sequence of Ren immediately starting to try and pull the saber out of Dindu's hand, succeeding at first, but then doubling over in pain and
This would make all the subsequent shit make perfect sense and made emo kid's character pathetic and a credible threat at the same time.
That said, something like that never fucking happened or implied, so your defense is fanfic theorycrafting
Yeah, I totally agree. I've even found some good articles discussing how stupid it is. They're pretty intellectual and above the masses like you and me!
Nigga, those younglings in Ep II were 5 and they were doing the lightsaber training, deflecting laser blasts with a blinder on. The same training that Luke was attempting in Ep IV. So if Rey was trained, she was at the same level as the younglings and already equal or surpassed Ep IV Luke. Check&mate
I think it would have been cool if Finn was more clueless about the outside world, being programmed from birth and everything.
Like, still be a good guy but maybe occasionally act sith-like or not pick up social cues.
I like the idea of a defunct storm trooper being a main character, but Finn doesn't really feel like one to me.
listwn oyu fucking idiots the force isnt even real you just believe things to happen and they do rey ( iahevnt watched this faggot movie) just believed hard enough that she would win and she did (this is what women actually believe irl lmao) just like how luke believed hard enough he would blow up the death star so the shot DID go into the exhaust vent you just will stuff to happen george is telling us all to listen
It's really not spergy bullshit, it's gigantic lapses in character logic and intellect for the purposes of shiny sword fighting. The problem is, it's really not difficult at all to write the scene in a way that makes sense, but they didn't even give a shit.
The OT was much better with this.
>Vader vs Obi-Wan
They were squally matched as far as the force goes, so they wouldn't be able to throw each other around, or at least it's reasonable that they didn't try. This is actually the first lightsaber fight in the series where both participants AREN'T powerful force users. Obi-Wan and Vader were evenly matched, for all we knew. Finn was a retard with a lightsaber. There's no reason Kylo shouldn't have at least TRIED to use the force.
>So if Rey was trained
Literally 0 proof that she was - headcanon
>already equal or surpassed Ep IV Luke
Luke used the Force to help him make a shot he said he was capable of making before. And he had Obi Wan to hold his hand the entire time in the X-Wing cockpit.
Rey used the Force to beat someone infinitely more experienced in both, lightsaber combat and Force usage, having never held a lightsaber before and having found out about the Force being real hours beforehand
It's even fucking established in the Yoda vs Dooku AotC duel that when 2 individuals are evenly matched when it comes to the Force it's necessary to just draw the lightsabers.
Established facts don't matter to Reyfags though, just headcanon
How about going back into the theater and not taking a big piss when the Force Vision happens? Maybe, I don't know, pay attention to the imagery that's on the screen and then use something called 'an imagination' in order to put pieces together of shit you already know from watching the original trilogy, and having a basic concept of how plots typically flow once the introductory points are estlabished.
I understand that right now it's the cool thing to hate on Episode 7, but I honestly don't understand why. I went in and had an enjoyable time. It has some pacing issues, especially early on. It also heavily suffers from poetry, but I felt like this film was an example of how to do poetry correctly as opposed to the prequels, which failed entirely.
Now when I say poetry I am of course talking about the call-backs to previous films and the simple but effective visuals (the sun disappearing just as Kylo makes the decision to kill Han, meaning that for now the light has lost and he chooses the dark side. It's simple, but it's effective.)
I really do feel like /tv/ is in the wrong about this. Pointing out plot-holes in the first of three guaranteed films is the absolute height of retardation and plebian thought. They are attempting to recreate the sense of wonder and question-seeking that Episode IV brought, a mystery and strangeness. I think it was fairly effective, although it didn't work on me personally I can see and appreciate what they were trying to do.
This is the definition of headcanon and plotholes, though.
Can I ask if there are any movies, ever made, that you thought were stupid or had plot holes? I bet we could come up with some stupid fucking reasons for those making sense as well.
Look, it's fine if you enjoyed the movie, I enjoyed parts of it as well, but that doesn't make it flawless or even mean it made sense. You can like a flawed, shitty movie, but it doesn't make it good.
Nice wall of text, but you claimed you could prove all of those points and you've failed to prove any.
Pointing out what you think are plot holes in the first of three films all meant to convey an over-arching story is absolutely retarded. It's even more retarded than people who will defend some of the legitimate plot issues and twice as retarded as people seeking plot holes.
If you honestly believe that they aren't going to explain away Rey's proficiency with the force with some sort of memory repression you haven't been paying attention to anything.
Imagination is not the definition of plot holes, or head canon. Imagination is a tool that one can use to also deduce things. Please go back to your Greco-Latin school of analytical thought and fuck off.
Let me work it slowly 4u ;
>*Holy shit, I just killed my father*
>*My mind is literally in a blank state*
Chewbacca shows him with his crossbow. Remember when Han tried it out and it knocked out a gang of FO Troops? That was the power of one shot and he got him clean.
His thoughts were dwelling on what he just did, so he wasn't able to stop the blaster shot because that required focus.
>*My master Snoke required me to bring the girl to him*
>*Therefore I can't kill her*
>*I just got hit with a powerful fucking blast*
>*I just killed my father*
>*It's fucking freezing out her*
>*I'm a literally state of WTF*
>*I have to bring this bitch alive*
>*She just got this surge of power when she got that lightsaber*
>*Holy shit, he's using it on me*
>*HOLY SHIT, HAS SHE HAD EXPERIENCE BEFORE? SAY WITH LIKE A POLEARM*
I'm betting people go to the movies with the mindset of trying to bring it down than actually try to enjoy something
>mystery and strangeness
Are you actually retarded? ANH ended with mystery and strangeness, and excitement for the journey ahead of us. This movie ended with a giant chasm opening up between two characters after a lengthy fight that doesn't make sense when you think about it for ten seconds. They're nothing alike.
What about Finn's then, you fuck? I made this thread with one question in mind: Why didn't Ren try to use the force against a lightsaber-wielding Finn?
You can't answer it because there is no good answer. Even your fucking headcanon can't save you.
Who the fuck keeps reading my OP and thinking I'm asking, "Why did Rey win???" because I never asked that once.
>the completely abandoned red headed stepchild of the series
It's only canon in the sense that they have to be because they're Lucasfilm productions and there'd otherwise be a hole missing in the overarching story. As for the actual concepts shown in that schlock garbage, everyone in charge of the current canon is doing their best to erase them from the history books.
>If you honestly believe that they aren't going to explain away Rey's proficiency with the force with some sort of memory repression you haven't been paying attention to anything.
Relying on sequels to explain a core characteristic of your main character is shit tier writing. You can watch ANH and be completely understand it without having to watch ESB and RotJ, you can even do the same with TPM and probably 95% of 1st movies in trilogies.
Meanwhile we literally can not understand why did TFA end like it did because writers MIGHT explain it two years down the line
>Vision of a child's hand pointing at a spaceship leaving the desert planet
>Right after a vision of buildings burning in a Dantooine/Dagoba like planet, the stereotypical place for Jedi to train
>Rey is obviously the child of Luke Skywalker. Anything BUT her being Skywalker's child would be a plot twist at this point
>As Luke's child she would probably be taught the ways of the force or be naturally force sensitive
>J.J Abrams is banking on nostalgia and clever poetry rhyming based on Episodes 4, 5, and 6, so why not steal the concept of putting your child on a desert planet to hide them?
All of these are circumstantial but open the possibilities to what is described.
Once again, the only way you can defend that movie is by tearing down established canon (prequels are canon, no matter how much you dislike them, Lucas says so and Disney says so) and establishing headcanon in its place
Probably the biggest push out of all the new non-film material has been the comics. Do you know what they've just started releasing? An Obi-Wan and Anakin comic! I guess they're not as non-canon as you thought...
>he clearly loves using the thing so when the oppurtunity presented itself why woulden't he fight in the most honurabru way possible
I don't know about honor, but honestly, he probably did jump at the chance to finally have a real lightsaber duel for once. Was probably itching to have one.
>All of these are circumstantial but open the possibilities to what is described.
You'd hope fan theories would at least be possible, that's about the bare minimum for it to be a theory. That doesn't mean its definite or even remotely likely. Never mind, three of your five points aren't even 'evidence' FROM THE MOVIES.
Once again, you have completely failed to prove anything. And to think you were calling people absolutely retarded for not falling in line with your fan delusions.
He stopped a blaster shot . Vader absorbed two blaster shots and choked some guy through a monitor who was no where near him.
Also, having strong force powers doesn't equal great fighting skills. Also injured,confused, conflicted, etc.
>He's gotten completely btfo and now has to rely on waiting three years for the sequel when he claimed his delusions were easily provable from TFA
>He's STILL calling others retarded
And even if it's true, I'll be back to remind you that relying on a sequel to explain your movie's ending is still lazy writing.
TFA ending makes 0 sense based on the information we have when watching the movie
>He stopped a blaster shot . Vader absorbed two blaster shots and choked some guy through a monitor who was no where near him.
No one claimed he should be as strong as Vader, just stronger than a non-trained person who learnt of the force an hour ago.
>Also, having strong force powers doesn't equal great fighting skills.
Literally every other film disagrees.
A bolt to the gut means you can no longer use the force? Was it perhaps the pain that hindered him, the very thing that makes Darkside users strong?
He was conflicted about killing his father, he was nothing but enraged at Rey and Finn.
That sorta makes sense to me. Don't you like need consternation to use the force? If uv got one hella of a blaster wound I doubt you could concentrate on using the force. Makes sense tbqh
Do you have a hardon for using "headcanon"? I said IF she was trained, because we don't know. You even fucking quoted it. So do YOU know Rey's backstory and why she was left on Jakku? Oh, you don't, do you? So making a logical assumption from the evidence provided in the films, it's a safe bet she had previous training.
Zero proof being how efficient she is with the Force, her mysterious past and being left on a planet by someone who needed to go somewhere by them self immediately and still hasn't returned for her, the visions that she has, etc. I need to see the film again but we will see if her vision matches the steps at the very end of the film, in which case I can make a safe assumption that she may have been present for all of the visions she saw when she touched the lightsaber and when Ren fucked with her.
Well he clearly can't win against you fucktards because you want the film to explicitly state something for you (you must hate films like The Shining, Shutter Island, Inception, etc because you can't make a reasonable conclusion on something the film provided you evidence for because you need to be hit over the head with it) which maybe Ep VIII will.
There is a major difference between an ambiguous ending when two possibilities exist and both make sense within the movie's universe and TFA's ending when one possibility is pure bullshit (Rey beating a vastly more experienced duelist and Force user with 0 prior training) and the other one is just slightly less bullshit (Rey beating a vastly more experienced duelist and Force user because she got some training at the age of 3).
Even if his version is true, it's still shit writing
Literally the "Lightning" of Star Wars
I think I can defend myself, anon!
Cracked used the debunked argument that Luke was a Mary Sue as well so its all good.
io9 said that she didn't perfectly fit the original definition of Mary Sue created by fanfiction writers in 2003.
Of the two excuses, I think io9's was more creative.
I was wondering why Han was suddenly interested in Chewie's bowcaster. Like, after 35 years, he just noticed it? But it's because they wanted to call attention to how much punch it packed. Why? So you you knew just how fucked up Kylo was after after taking a gut shot, thus being so affected that Finn could hang with him for 20 seconds in a duel.
As far as Rey, that's a different story. Bitch will wind up leagues ahead of him in the force. Just her powers awakening put her about on his level.
>So you you knew just how fucked up Kylo was after after taking a gut shot, thus being so affected that Finn could hang with him for 20 seconds in a duel.
But he effortlessly tosses Rey in the air and knocks her out AFTER being shot. He's obviously still powerful with the Force and according to any logic, should just wipe the floor with both Finn and Rey
Age of 5. And I already established the youngling thing at that age. Rey continued her hand to hand combat skills on Jakku, minus Force abilities/restraint a Jedi would use. Ren was injured and mentally unstable, Rey might have more Force power than Ren has (the film shows this has a very high chance). Rey was the underdog in the fight and she was able to pull through, like heroes in most films do. It wasn't an asspull like you people try to make it.
>And I already established the youngling thing at that age
You established that they're able to block laser shots from a training ball. Did Rey block laser shots from a training ball or did she beat someone infinitely more experienced who was previously shown as a powerful Force user who stopped blaster bolts mid air, read people's minds, choked them and froze them in place, all much more than any 5 year could have possibly learn. He's clearly a vastly more powerful Force user than Rey even assuming she did have training and don't give me this hurt bullshit because he's shown using the Force to knock out Rey AFTER getting shot.
>Rey might have more Force power than Ren has (the film shows this has a very high chance).
And any possible reason for that is either bullshit or bad writing. There is no logical way to make someone who got a bit of training years back to be stronger in the Force than someone who trained under Luke/Snoke almost his entire life
This, you can have a fantasy movie but things still have to make sense within that universe, this doesn't. It's just really badly written to somehow make the magical empowered female win despite having no jedi or sword training.
Kylo Ren is clearly untrained and has only just begun to grasp what he can do with the force. Everything about him is clumsy- his helmet is dented and simple, his robes were probably stolen because he thought they looked cool, his lightsaber construction is fucked up and he's using a broken crystal. All of his force abilities BUT holding the blaster-bolt in place during the first scenes was clumsily done. It is clear he is in the apprenticeship phases and holds great doubt over whether or not what he's doing is the proper path for him. His lack of conviction and faith makes him weaker in the force, not stronger.
>Technically more than Vader, who never did more than lightly choke a guy.
>not knowing Vader lost a lot of his power after Mustafar due to having less of his physical body and the limitations of his suit
This is probably a troll post but
>his robes were probably
Fucking headcanon again, "probably" doesn't belong in a fact-based argument
>All of his force abilities BUT holding the blaster-bolt in place during the first scenes was clumsily done.
So are we just spewing bullshit at this point, or what? When he effortlessly dragged the general guy to himself and suspended him in midair, the guy didn't move an inch. Pretty precise control, if you ask me. He never exhibits this "clumsy" control you speak of, you're just tying this shit together in your head based on his character being unfocused and lacking confidence. If JJ wanted to show him being clumsy or unfocused specifically in his use of the force, he failed.
>His lack of conviction and faith makes him weaker in the force, not stronger.
Again, not shows AT ALL in the movie. Not when he froze a blaster shot, changed it's direction in the air, and released it with expert precision, not when he froze an officer in midair, pretty much never. Show me an instance of crude, unfocused force control?
>'it's fantasy' is an excuse for shit writing
>ctrl + f "Why didn't Kylo just freeze Finn and Rey"
This pisses me off so much.
He flawlessly froze Rey just 30 min earlier
Sure she apparently have some mastery of the Force, but she still got knocked out by Kylo by his use of the Force.
Why not recapture her in the same way again and lynch frozen Finn KKK style?
Kylo Ren was trained by force Jesus Christ aka. Luke, and he only knows one way to use the force in combat, and it's Force Stasis. guess what that does? Freeze people and shit in place which he does every 30 minutes in the movie, instead of choking errybody like Vader. And where is that from by the way? KOTOR.
hmm, that world Luke was at the end.... a huge ocean planet with tiny islands all over the place? google the official map for Force Awakens, what's on there? Rakata Prime. Well ok, what was the only thing that featured that specific planet? KOTOR again
but wait, no, that's just guessing, right? JJ didn't do it right?
Star Map to Star Forge in an uncharted part of the galaxy
>Map to Luke hiding in an uncharted part of the galaxy
all the remaining Jedi Masters missing and in hiding?
>last remaining Jedi Master Luke missing and in hiding
Kylo Ren's mask
hell Kylo basiclaly looks like Revan in black and silver instead of bronze and brown
traitor stormtrooper Finn who just wants get away from this shit but is swayed to help
>traitor jedi hunter Atton who just wants get away from this shit but is swayed to help
Bastila Shan, strong independent don't need no man action chick fighting with a staff, talking with a nondescript British accent, that feels tug to the darkside throught the whole thing
>or is it Rey?
Would you be surprised if Rey is actually like the Jedi Exile and unknowingly borrows/steals force powers? I wouldn't.
Starkiller Base, giant cannon draining nearby sun
>Star Forge, giant shipyard draining nearby sun
>"There has been an awakening"
P O T T E R Y
overconfidence and pride is almost a dark side user trademark.
remember that dialog between palps and luke in return of the jedi? then anakin trying to take the beloved highground from obi?
Funny how some people try to defend the Kylo vs Rey Fight....
Normally Kylo whould have wiped the Shit out of Rey....
but we know in america you got this problem since a few years, the feminist dilema....
anyway so we have an now Kylo Ren who lost to a tiny Girl.....so there is no more thread about him in the next movies.....
so we see him and think me that guy crys and lost anyway meh...
Well, it seems you don't know much about writing movies and stuff... anyways...
Kylo is a flawed and unstable character, his biggest weakpoitns are his fear of being pulled tot he light side, not standing up to vaders legacy and he's haughty...
It wasn't the problem that he could've been without confidence to beat rey.
You are the head of the knights of ren, trained under supreme leader snoke, wielding one of the most badass lightsabers there are. A little traitor stormtroper thinks he can challenge you to a lightsaber duel. Funny, let's play with him.
The result; you fucking cut his whole back open, precise like a red burning scalpel, he drops down and you leave the little shit to die where it lands.
The best thing, the stupid girl you can't stand now picks up the lightsaber...
Maybe she's filled with anger because you cut down her friend? Great. You're a sith-lord!
You're both supposedly better in a lightsaber duell, though you took a shot of one of the strongest blasters like a tank and bleeding out, she may resisted your mindtricks but hey, those aren't your speciality anyways. SOO let's see if you can corrupt and turn her to be your apprentice or at least toy with her. Makes sense to me as far as "I'm a nosy sith-lord" goes.
Rey beat him thanks to her connection with the force, which is like a build up mystery for coming movies and after multiple chasms opened up around both combatans avoiding them, finaly one chasm opens up between em, seperatign them in a very symbolic and, yeah, practical way... only kinda logical if the whole planet was to explode... oh wait, the whole planet was exploding!
>There has been an awakening
grasping at straws with this one. The situations in which these were said were completely different. The Exile USED to be a Jedi and lost consciousness and also thought that she lost the tie with the force (which turns out to be untrue) and awakes after that. With the awakening in TFA it's an entirely different scenario. Unless Rey somehow lost her memory and ability to use her powers.
Also grasping at straws with Bastila Shan. She isn't the MC, she's actually a Jedi Master and the only thing which they share apart from being strong/independent Jedi woman is that they have dady/mommy issues.
Everything else is on point I guess.
You could say the same about any movie. EVERY MOVIE HAS LAPSES IN LOGIC but it's the good movies that distract us from those lapses that entertain us.
You sacrifice logic for entertainment. That's literally what a movie is.
Maybe he just wanted to fight with his lightsaber. He's never gotten to before, think about it. He's only hit walls with it. All that anticipation, all that waiting for a jedi battle.
You'd do the same shit I don't know you but I know you would. Realize it.
None of that is shown, if they wanted to show the injury affecting him he should've been hobbling around and barley able to lift his saber, if they wanted to make it clear his fathers death was affecting his fighting that needs to be clear too, because when you watch the fight it looks like none of that is relevant and he's focused on the fight, why do you try so hard to defend this mediocore garbage? surely if your so invested you fanboy and try to defend bad movies online you care enough to expect better
I'm more baffled at how absolutely perfect Rey is in everything in the movie.
Is there something she can't do in the movie? I guess she's shocked with the dream, but she really is a flawless character.
She's basically not-Luke, except Luke needed 3 movies to start kicking ass with a lightsaber, had some temper problems, a bit of incredulity. Rey starts as a master of everything from the get go, that's the impression I get.
Bastila may not be the "main character" as you don't play as her, but she sure is one of the three protagonists along with Revan and Carth
why do you think you are railroaded into going with them and not anyone else in some of the parts of the game?
>The best thing, the stupid girl you can't stand now picks up the lightsaber...
She didn't just pick up the lightsaber she grabbed it with the force when he was somehow having trouble.
Has anybody fuckin mentioned that she just closed her eyes mid fight and prayed to the almighty mitochondria god for power, while Kylo just fucking stands there like a fucking idiot waiting for a disadvantage?
This is the one thing that made me really butthurt towards Double J
Kylo wanted Vader's lightsaber and was distracted by his desire for it. Second, he didn't want to kill Rey and was purposely holding back. It's implied in the novel he has 'compassion' for her, and already knows who she is. Why do you think he waited for her answer instead of kicking her off the cliff? It's not that hard to understand. You're letting your butthurt cloud your judgement.
Kylo is SO cute.
When he was staring at Rey in the chair while she was sleeping like Edward did in twilight, it was so adorable.
I wonder how long he held her in the "bridal" position when he took her on the ship.
/pol/ is one of the best sources of comedy on 4chan
>You sacrifice logic for entertainment. That's literally what a movie is.
You're both, wrong and retarded. Nothing of entertainment value would be lost if TFA's plot and characters made sense
Have you ever tried to focus on something when in extreme pain? Like having a metal bolt surrounded by energy go through your side?
The Force is about focus. If you lose focus, your abilities lessen.
I got sick of the word "focus" from Kanan while watching Rebels. He preached it over and over.
IT ISN'T A BLASTER BOLT.
Christ how many threads have we gone over how fucking bowcasters work? They are miniature railguns that magnetically accelerate a metallic rod, which is then surrounded by energy and propelled out. That is why there is momentum from being shot by it, unlike when people were shooting blasters.
Also, this is why he bled. Often blasters cauterize.
He also lacked mental focus, which is really important to using the Force as stated multiple times throughout the franchise, to the point of repetition.
>He also lacked mental focus, which is really important to using the Force as stated multiple times throughout the franchise, to the point of repetition.
how did he toss Rey against a tree after getting shot if he couldn't focus? The movie did literally nothing to show that his ability to use the Force diminished, not only that, they show him to be just as capable as he was before
That was before he was aware Finn had Anakin's lightsaber.
He also beat his side right before to use his pain to fuel the dark side.
Also his emotions and rage were everywhere. Sometimes he had it, sometimes he did it.
Have you never had bad shit happen to you and then have to go to work the next day? After my mother died and my sister was going through brain surgery at the same time while I also had a broken ankle, sometimes I would be like a robot and able to do certain things, while sometimes my mind was somewhere else and I fucked up.
Watch Rebels, even though it is childish, if you want to see more examples of Jedi with unstable powers.
Because it has a thousand times more mass than just a ball of energy, and the base was literally exploding around him and he was looking at Rey and Finn when it happened.
Why do you think he was beating his wound? He knows this. Yet his constant struggle with the light keeps him from consistently using pain to fuel his powers. He is not even Sith, he is an amateur. Therefore he was unable to use the pain as a fuel and fought like shit.
Like I said, he just beat his side and he has some mental issues that are making his mental state vary wildly. He could not use it to fuel the dark side because he feels the tug of the light so much. He thought Han's death would fix this, but it changed nothing. This threw him off, and threw off his expectations of the dark side.
>no cheap shots or dishonorable tactics
>there is literally a scene in ESB where Vader hides behind a wall inside a dark passageway to ambush Luke out of no where
No Jimothy, the autist was you all along.
Why doesn't Obiwan just mind trick multiple storm troopers to do his bidding on the death star?
Why doesn't Vader just force choke Luke and take him to the emperor?
Why doesn't Luke force flip and cut off Jabbas head with his lghtsaber in his cantina?
Why doesn't the emperor just force lightning Luke from the beginning and break his will immediately?
>Why doesn't Obiwan just mind trick multiple storm troopers to do his bidding on the death star?
Because mind trick isn't permanent mind control
>Why doesn't Vader just force choke Luke and take him to the emperor?
because choking kills people and Vader wanted Luke alive
>Why doesn't Luke force flip and cut off Jabbas head with his lghtsaber in his cantina?
Because that would leave Luke and maybe Lando up against like a hundred of Jabba's goons. Pit of Sarlacc was more advantageous
>Why doesn't the emperor just force lightning Luke from the beginning and break his will immediately?
Force lightning wasn't meant to break his will, it was meant to kill him and Emperor only resorts to this when Luke refuses to kill Vader and commits to being a Jedi
How do you know mind trick doesn't work permanently? ANH doesn't explain that
Why couldn't he knock him out with a force choke?
Why couldn't Luke mind trick more gaurds and then try it? The OT never explicitly states there's a limit to mind tricks
Why couldn't he use it to weaken him into submission? Seems like a very sith thing to go.
Here are some possible reasons
1. He was injured. Maybe he was injured so much that he had problems concentrating. This might be why Rey was able to take the light saber away from him with the force.
2. He lost SO much blood that he lost all his midichlorians so he didn't have enough Force Points to use any of those super advanced Dark Side powers.
3. In no light saber duel previously does anyone use the force DURING the fight. This is because the fights have to look cool. Perhaps it is because both jedi already use the force to augment their abilities for use in the fight, and its hard to put attention on that while also doing something else with the force.
No, not really. The Emperor was more powerful than Vader, so what you said about Vader being the most powerful force user in decades is not true.
We are also never told how strong or weak Vader is. All we are told is that the Empire hunted down every remaining Jedi. Vader didn't necessarily participate.
Vader is a powerful Jedi by virtue of being one in a handful left in existence, though, sure.
I honestly disagree with this. I don't get these types of arguments. Did Yoda have to give into the dark side to defeat Palpatine? Did Anakin have to give into the Dark side to defeat Dooku? Did Obi Wan have to give into the dark side to defeat Anakin?
>Did Yoda have to give into the dark side to defeat Palpatine?
>Did Anakin have to give into the Dark side to defeat Dooku?
He was already halfway there
>Did Obi Wan have to give into the dark side to defeat Anakin?
Obi-Wan had the high ground
rewatch the throne room scene in ROTJ. Vader threatens to go after Leia and Luke comes out of hiding screaming and hulks out to defeat Vader. Look at his face when he just starts hacking away at Vader and cuts his arm off.
Luke totally gives into the dark side out of anger at that point, but he ultimately rejects it and saves his father as a result.
I watch that scene, and I dislike it. There's a point where Luke turns around, Vader pivots, and then instead of slicing Luke in half, he takes a knee and raises his sword, waiting for Luke to pivot and start striking it. His other hand was free - why not start using the force with it? Fling metallic components at Luke. That fight was more about inner conflicts than what happened - Vader lost because he didn't want to win. Luke hacking away really hard and hitting Vader's sword in the same spot had nothing to do with shit. That's exactly how he fought on Bespin, and Vader wrecked his shit.
No, I don't buy any of that 'dark side' bullshit. I also don't buy that turning to the dark side means you instantly forsake your friends, agree to do the emperor's bidding, and become a general asshole.
>I also don't buy that turning to the dark side means you instantly forsake your friends, agree to do the emperor's bidding, and become a general asshole.
This is exactly how it happened for Anakin.
Yeah and I think it is bad. I honestly think that was one of the weakest parts of the prequels.
>I turn to the dark side to save my wife
>then I choke her out because of the dark side
This is bad logic.
This is explained. He wants Luke to JOIN the dark side. That way, the empire would have, as far as they know, ALL remaining Jedi on their side.
When the bottom turret locked in place, why didn't Fin just climb into the top turret?
Why didn't Vader just force choke Luke to sleep once he felt his presence on Bespin? It's already confirmed that he can do it remotely, so he logically he should have just done that instead of the elaborate/risky carbonite freezing trap.
You know how stupid bitches in horror movies always walk down into the basement, and you end up wondering, "Why the fuck would you do that? Are you trying to find that axe murderer you're so afraid of?" The people defending TFA are basically defending this style of screenwriting, which is: I don't care if it makes sense in the context of the film, X needs to happen so it will happen.
How is this fanboism. This is exactly what the movie was trying to demonstrate. Think about how many times they showed exactly how powerful the bowcaster was.
Whether you like it or not doesn't mean the movie didn't make it clear how it was supposed to have happened.
Fanboism is saying "hurr that's not how the force actually works." The force doesn't exist. It works however they say it works.
Kylo is a terrible character. He almost single handily kills the movie. They got so many other things right, it kind of amazes me.
>I wonder why Adam Driver was cast
It's weird seeing people talk about Kylo Ren being damaged and all that. This is a Disney movie produced for kids, everything is meant to be taken at face value, there is no deeper meaning. Rey used her strong womyn plot armor to beat up Ren.
Has anyone involved in the film said otherwise?
This is actually a Lucasfilm flick. Disney has allegedly been pretty good about letting them do their own thing. That's just what the people involved with said. I think Bob is actually afraid of making them too Disney.The only thing I heard they shoehorned in was a new droid.
Wow, I really can't believe this shit.
>fans get mad when movies succeeding the OT are too different from the OT
>get mad when they are too similar