>>64577317 >because the cops(and me) made a shit load of it up Most police aren't inherently bad people.
But you have to wonder how many times does it take to do the incorrect things before you're no longer a good person?
It's a slippery slope argument but it fits. There are too many examples, like the cops who let another cop get away with drunk driving or purposely following improper procedures to cover another cop's ass.
>>64577114 >>64577044 Guy's name is Sebastian Berg. He lived next door to the Avery property and was arrested during the time period they were searching the trailer and garage for beating his wife. He now lives in Thailand with a much younger girl/boy. His English is terrible and he claims his wife (the Eva Berg) got him deported. This women claims she suspected Sebastian of the killing and reported some suspicious evidence (bloody woman's panties, bloody hammer) to the county sheriff but they didn't investigate.
>>64577434 no you dumb cunt, I worked at a law firm for a year and attended a wide array of trials (and dealt with the courts more than I'd ever like to admit to, they're such a huge fucking pain in the ass, save for like 3 counties [out of ~20]), and this is a clear cut case of police abusing their power and utilizing a corrupt system to their advantage.
>>64577433 I'm saying they undermined their cause because a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon under the impression that Avery is innocent. An impression they got from watching this very biased documentary. Once they see that Avery is in fact not innocent, this train will lose its steam.
In other words, the filmmakers should have made their argument while also acknowledging Avery's possible guilt.
how could any of you faggots defend the police when presented with this? I mean are you fucking shitting me? perhaps I'm getting too caught up due to my own experience with the justice system, but this is absolute fucking bullshit of the utmost unprofessional kind. absolutely comical that anybody thinks there was no foul play here.
perhaps the police in that shithole county thought that they were in such a shitshow of a town that nobody would notice. thank god those attorneys were present however.
>>64577604 Well, that's going to be a convoluted answer. I am blood related to both families, but have the last name Schroeder (in the Middle Shore between Sheboygan and Green Bay along the coast of Lake Michigan, almost everybody's related one way or another, and most have at least one German grandparent). I won't get into more specific self-identifying details, but Steven, Brendan, and I share a great-grandparent, making Steven my first cousin once removed and Brendan my second cousin. I'm closer to Steven in age but have never met him. I knew the four Dassey boys well enough I went to Bobby's wedding, have met Scott several times (do not like that guy at all), and spent several holidays or other celebrations with many of the people seen in the series. I actually met the filmmakers once as well.
I am as unlike any of those people as one could be without being black.
What actually happened >boyfriend shot and killed her >burned the body >deleted incriminating voicemails from her phone with the brother's help >roommate most likely knew about her murder in some way (didn't report her missing until four or five days after her initial disappearance) >decided to frame Steven and dumped what was left of her remains in his lot >cops find her car in an unknown location >decide to further incriminate Steven because they knew they purposely boned him in the rape case and he was suing the entire department >plant his blood in her car >plant key in one of the billions of "searches" of his home >maybe planted the bullet in the garage in one of the searches as well >G U I L T Y verdict
>>64578047 Among the Dasseys, Brendan's the only one with a below-average IQ. Then again, an average IQ isn't going to split the atom either. I suspect Steven's IQ is within the average range, considering his skill with tools and engines, but everyone in rural or small-town Wisconsin sounds like a fucking retard.
>>64578056 Who gives a shit? Anyone with internet access can figure it out. And Wisconsin is no more fucked up than any other shithole state in this shithole country. Texas executed a guy (Todd Willingham) of a crime that never even occurred.
>Teresa is murdered somewhere near the Avery property by either the ex bf Ryan Hillegas or Bobby Dassey and Scott Taydech, after she leaves photographing the car. >She is beaten and shot, and transported inside her rav4 to to an area (gravel pit) where her corpse is burnt inside a burn barrell and smashed to bits. >If Hillegas killed her, he deletes incriminating voicemails from her inbox, and aggressively focuses search co-ordination near the Avery property. >Colborn finds the Rav4 and checks licence plate, confers with Lenk. >Lenk uses his knowledge of the Avery case file to retrieve the blood samples. >Colborn and/or Lenk, believing SA is responsible and to guarantee a conviction, moves Rav4 and remains to the Avery property whilst SA is away. >Colborn and/or Lenk spread remains from the burn barrell at the location of SA's bonfire. >Colborn or Lenk tell Theresa's cousin to check the corner of the Avery salvage yard, and to take photos. >To fit the narrative, Colborn and/or Lenk place keys in trailer. >To subsitute for a lack of physical evidence, Colborn and/or Lenk find a spent .22 bullet on the property, remnants of Avery DNA, and place it in the garage. >Special investigators interrogate Dassey family members. >Kayla and her friends whip up rumours about Brendans involvment after his autistic behaviour at the birthday party, and this is relayed to the special investigators. >Special investigators zero in on Brendan and coerce a story out of him. >If Taydech and Bobby killed her, they realise their opportunity with the investigation honing in solely on SA, testify aggressively against him, as well as giving each other an alibi.
>>64578199 >twelve fucking troglodytes from manitowoc county too stupid to find a way out of jury duty or a bit too willing to perform it >three were county employees or closely connected to county employees, including the sheriff's department
>>64578253 Right, so not evidence then? So, gossip or other bullshit with literally no probative value? Do you even know what probative means? It means it gets presented at trial and if it doesn't, it's - wait for it -
>>64578297 Bullshit, queer. It's evidence, or it's not. We have frequently addressed the issue of evidence (actual evidence presented at trial) that was not prominently featured in the documentary, and it's the same as the rest of it: so dubious as to be absurd, or circumstantial. You keep insisting that things Ken Kratz makes up after the fact should be considered evidence, and you're wrong.
>>64578484 I heard the other side, it's just not very compelling.
There's some weird stuff about Avery calling Teresa down there and trying to hide that it's him, but the evidence of police misconduct is so strong that I don't see how any jury in their right mind could conclude Avery is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. I dunno who the fuck did it, but I don't think I could put Avery away with the evidence presented.
>>64577633 You know why that vial was NEVER brought up again?
It's a fucking vacuum sampling vial (Vacutainer is printed on the top). That hole is inherently there from filling it.
It literally comes with a bit of anticoagulant sealed in there and the air evacuated. When taking blood samples (anyone who gives blood will be familiar with this) after tapping your vein, they just pierce these up onto a sampling needle protected in a plastic housing (see photo) and that needle punctures the top and the vacuum in the vial draws in the blood sample.
It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to fill one WITHOUT piercing the top of the tube.
They only asked the lab techs if samples were taken from the vial (which gave them the "they didn't do that" answer heard in the video), but later discovered that the hole was just a normal part of its use and thus never brought it up again.
So that's how I handle being "presented with this", I figure out what it is and how it is used. (Though I wouldn't say I defend the police. They did plenty shady, but this wasn't one of those things, so drop it.)
>>64578484 Oh, you mean what the media constantly reported in an unending barrage of Ken Kratz's press conferences and public statements from October of 2005 until the conclusion of the trial a few months later. See, THAT'S the one-sided part. That's the part that already happened. That's what got Steven Avery convicted before the trial even opened. THIS is the other side of the story: all the things that were presented or challenged by the defense but ignored entirely by the media. So now it's balance, you see? Are you kind of getting how this is working? The one-sided thing already happened. That was when Kunt Krotch tried Steven in the media and won. Now the justice system is being tried by a pair of documentarians and the result is going to be a bit different.
>>64578490 Oh, no. It's you who doesn't understand. Do you realize that a fingerprint or DNA evidence is circumstantial and not direct? That's a fact of law, dumb faggot. Go ahead and Google it. I'll wait, dumb faggot.
>>64578655 not that guy but ok, maybe the hole was supposed to be there but the styrofoam container with the blood sample had its seal broken and was taped back together, that was obvious. isn't it possible they just unscrewed the top of the vial to get the blood out? or, just stuck another needle through the hole? why was there blood in the rav4 but no fingerprints of Avery's, when the only cut on Avery's body was his finger?
what the fuck? SOMEONE definitely went back and broke the tape after it was put on there. 100%. I'm not saying they definitely took a sample to so they could plant evidence. I'm just saying someone definitely went back and opened that box for some reason after it had initially been sealed.
It doesn't matter who did it. Regardless of whether you think Steven did it or not, what matters is that sheer perversion of justice which occurred. The planted key alone is enough to declare a mistrial.
>>64577421 Well a calorie is not just a calorie friend, is not the same ingesting 1 calorie from a pringle than 1 calorie from an almond. Having said that, prison food is very high in carbs and salt (very cheap stuff), also commissary will only have junk food (chips, ramen, candies) . It's pretty easy to get fat and lethargic inside jail famm...
>>64579319 Why not? Calories measure energy. 1 calorie from a Pringle is the same amount of energy as 1 calorie from an almond, just like the weight of 1 pound of bricks is the same as 1 pound of feathers. I realize that almonds and Pringles have different nutrients though.
I don't see her brother being involved in the murder itself, that's effort that the kind of person he comes off to me(a kind of person i've had to put up with in the past, so i'm a bit biased against him but not too much to brand him a killer would rather spend on building up themselves as someone deserving of positive attention as much as possible, and not even bothering to stage a suicide to milk sympathy points is against the pale. Especially considering that video of hers, although her behavior there COULD put him(and the ex) as factors that pushed her to a possible suicide(although no one really brings that aspect up) but I don't think in such an scenario that possibility would come up to him in the moment. He's definitely involved in the cover-up(it's hard to argue against a cover-up of the truth behind the murder; just an argument of to what extent was fucked with) and got his piece of pie, as he gladly notes. What gets me the most is that, even if you go for the best sounding explanation of the cops and especially the prosecutor, it comes off as the Casey Anthony shitfest all over again, where they might have gotten a agreeable conclusion if they didn't stomp all over it because they thought they knew better.
>>64579319 Sodium doesn't increase weight gain. And, carbs don't really have THAT big of an impact on weight gain. Kid is probably chowing down food hardcore. I doubt the slop that's unloaded on their trays are calculated to equal exactly 2000 daily calories.
>>64577745 What? Yes it is. All the time. But it's questioned by experts in the field. Many perceived flaws/injustices with the justice system usually come from/are voiced by people who don't have legal training and don't know wtf they're saying.
>>64577124 >citizens >having rights at all in the U.S.
Nice try. Americans can't:
>own firearms without restrictions being pushed >shoot off fireworks in certain neighborhoods >smoke indoors in public anymore >defend themselves against government cucking of privatized systems >vote with said vote actually meaning anything.
>>64579082 They insert a syringe when they need to extract the blood for testing. The documentary didn't spend that much time on this theory because it was fucking retarded. It was probably the most ignorant section in the whole show.
that's what you get when these people don't even think finishing highschool is important and don't care about doing well at all. you should see midwestern schools when its deer hunting season, you'll be lucking if there's more than 3 kids in school.
>>64579351 Well maybe I didn't explain myself correctly, while your point is valid, what I meant was the latter part (the having different nutrients) , I used the pringle vs almond because even if you take the same amount of calories from both, there are certain things that will help your body burn and digest faster the primary being fiber. >>64579369 Yeah, I highly doubt they measure each tray for exactly a 2000 calorie servings, still sodium and carbs will destroy your metabolism.
>>64579529 Are you the guy who posted the image? Not to mention re: the broken tape. When the lab receives the blood vials, they brake the tape so they can access the blood for testing. Then, once the testing is complete, they tape the vials back up and ship it back. So, of course the tape was broken - they were in the lab.
>>64579632 Whoever "confirmed they would not have done this" wasn't the person who actually handled the vials. If they figured the vials would be accessed again for later testing, they could have just left it unsealed. It's not the craziest thing in the world nor is it damning evidence of a conspiracy to frame Avery.
>>64578955 I honestly doubt it was Bobby and/or Scott. They never cooperated with police and testified only because they were subpoenaed. Scott is still friendly with many of the Averys and is active with Barb in aiding Brendan (though he's also friends with some of the Kocoureks as well, oddly). The Averys seem to doubt either of them had anything to do with the crime. I have to admit I've never asked anyone a direct question about the event and it's not often discussed outside immediate family. I've only ever been party to maybe three discussions with any of the direct principals seen in the docu-series (Scott, Bobby, Barb, Earl, Charlie, etc.).
My own favorite was always Ryan Hillegas. It stands to reason that he was the one who deleted her voicemails and was the person constantly calling her before the event (testified to by Halbach's employer at the trial). He was really the only person on earth who had any real motive to hate her enough to kill her (unrequited love). But it remains to be explained how he would've known where and when to ambush her, questions that could've been investigated by Wiegert and Fass bender had they done any actual investigating.
There is also the theory of the German, the guy who lived on a property adjacent to the Avery compound. He was fucking nuts by all accounts and had been arrested a few times for domestic abuse. He had exactly the same motive Steven would've had (none).
I've always wanted to know more about the roommate. I'm baffled that someone would wait three days before maybe considering a person who is very organized and punctual might be missing and possibly endangered. I know very little about Theresa Halbach (though I once had a random encounter with Mike that was so unsettling I thought he knew who I was), but she didn't strike me as someone that would be expected to just fucking up and disappear.
>>64579735 >>64579694 Jury didn't have to believe prosecution's theory of how she was killed. It's very possible they looked at the totality of the evidence and determined Avery killed her and Dassey was somehow an accomplice to that murder... but without determining actually HOW she was murdered.
>>64579771 Yes, anon, a lab should always follow protocol. But that's not how real life always works. When there's a conspiracy being alleged against a police force... yeah. I think the key is the best indicator that something fishy happened, but even IF something did happen... the key was probably the only thing. Everything else is just too outlandish. Yeah, it's possible a documentary happened to catch a huge police conspiracy... but it's more likely that it was innocent shit.
>>64579286 He's right, actually. Direct evidence would be someone seeing it cut open, then blood drawn, then planted. Circumstantial is the fact that it is open. Someone might've just opened it to make sure the sample was still there. The fucking idiot should've left a log and a memo explaining why, and I certainly find it extremely questionable, but in and of itself doesn't prove evidence tampering. If EDTA had been detected in those blood samples (and it might have been present), that would've made the circumstantial case for tampering much stronger.
>>64579304 It isn't nonsense, though. I live here and remember quite clearly the tone of the reporting. I myself figured at the time he was probably guilty. I mean, why would a prosecutor describe a charnel house of rape and slaughter and the media dutifully report it unless they had that evidence to produce at trial? But then they didn't produce that evidence. Not one drop of blood or seminal or vaginal fluid found anywhere in that bedroom. Not even after the ripped the wall in half looking for it.
>>64579884 >>64579868 Why? That's not how evidence is determined. The defense couldn't raise to a preponderance of evidence that the vial had been tampered with - there could be no showing to the court that what they thought about the vial had actually occurred. Because they had no evidence the vial was tampered with, then why would the judge have prohibited it from being introduced into evidence? If you bar evidence based on suspicions, then you'd fuck every prosecution team in the country.
>>64579787 >>64579858 Well, that's the thing: they presented two mutually exclusive theories at each trial. In Steven's, they insisted, and I'm quoting, "Only one man could've done this," and they not once mentioned Brendan's trial, yet at Brendan's trial, they insisted he was Steven's accomplice. At Steven's trial, Halbach was killed in the garage by gunshot. At Brendan's trial, she was killed by throat-slashing in the bedroom (where no evidence was ever recovered).
>>64579901 >>64579927 None of her blood was necessary. She could have been strangled for all we know. But when you have the corpse's charred remains on the defendant's property, along with all the other stuff, it's really damning. Take a step away from the blood thing and look at the bigger picture. It's no surprise Avery and Dassey were convicted.
>Brendan gets interviewed without lawyer or parental permission >judge removes Len "smile till she's choking on her bile" Kachinsky as Brendan's lawyer because he allowed this to happen >judge allows the interview done without permission as evidence
>>64579944 But it is proven that someone's opened (or not sealed up the sample properly). There's a big difference between finding it suspicious because of that and just doubting everything suspicious without reason.
>>64579812 >>64579862 >>64579927 Kayla was interrogated in the same fashion that Brendan was, by the same interrogators: Wiegert and Fassbender. They fed her lines, pressured her into confirming them, then used that as their PC to go after Brendan.
The two of them lack the awareness to understand what happened to them, so they use shorthand like "I made it up", but the fact is they were both coerced into making statements that were manufactured by the investigators. Neither of them is intelligent enough to produce a statement like "the investigators successfully applied the Reid technique in order to extract a false confession". If they had the awareness to describe the event thus, they would've had the awareness to be immune from such questioning in the first place.
>>64579976 The prosecution probably wasn't quite sure how she died. Again, prosecution doesn't need to come up with a cause of death that makes sense. It helps the case against the defendant if they figure out a workable theory... but it's not required. If you required prosecution to know how every crime went down, you'd cripple their ability to go after suspected criminals. They can only come up with working theories... which change. The difference between Avery's trial and Dassey's trial was probably due to the prosecution realizing the garage by gunshot wasn't as workable as bedroom by throat-slashing. Simple as that. By pointing out "oh, she couldn't have been killed in X or Y manner," you're not proving Avery's innocence. It's not even making a step in the direction because the jury probably did the same thing when it convicted Avery.
well she wasn't only strangled. forensics found a bullet hole in her skull. also this would mean that almost everything Brendan said in his "confession" was false (hair cutting, stabbing, slicing throat)
I wouldn't put it beyond a teenage girl to make up lies for almost no reason.
>>64580069 Dude, kids don't just confess when they're properly interrogated via Judicially Approved interrogation methods. The police officers used interrogation methods that were approved by both the trial and appellate courts. There wasn't anything crazy with their techniques.
>>64580113 Oops, that didn't make much sense. Kids don't just randomly lie when they're properly interrogated** Maybe the police used force persuasion on them, but I doubt that. I think you guys are relying too much on what the experts said about the police's interrogation methods.
>>64579980 Right, the body that was discovered in three different locations? That body? The body that the state made no effort to determine by any scientifically valid method whether it had been moved to or from Steven's fire pit? That body? The body they insisted had been killed by a gunshot to the head, or by a throat slashing?
The bigger picture? Like the other possible suspects who were never once interviewed? Like the ignition key that had none of Halbach's DNA, despite her owning it for six years?
I'm pretty sure "the bigger picture" is what the documentary attempts to address, bigger picture issues like "due process", "chain of custody", "conflict of interest", and all the other "big picture" issues that seem to strongly suggest Steven's innocence.
>>64580080 >prosecution doesn't need to come up with a cause of death that makes sense Well, yes they do. That's the difference between premeditated murder and negligent homicide. If they can't produce a sensible cause of death then they have no charge to begin with.
>>64580113 She wasn't properly interrogated, though. What's proper about telling a kid or anyone else the answer you have to give before you can go home, then intimidating that person until they repeat the answer you've already given them?
WRONG. Kayla made her statements FIRST to school counselors, COMPLETELY unprompted. The whole reason that the investigators talked to her was because the counselors sent them to her.
A. Kayla came into the counseling office and asked to speak to a counselor... [snip] And she said she was there because she was feeling scared... [snip] She told us that she was scared, um, because her uncle, Steven Avery, had asked one of her cousins to help move a body. >Q. All right. What else, if anything, did she tell you about that? A. She also said she was scared about going to the shop, um, and she, specifically, asked if blood can come up through concrete. . . >Q. Describe for us, if you will, Kayla's demeanor, her affect, during these revelations? A. She -- She was scared. >Q. All right. Did she seem at all confused? A. No. >Q. Was this the first time you, um, ever, uh, had contact with Kayla? A. Yes. >Q. All right. Um, your best estimate, approximately how long did this conversation take? A. My best guess would be 15 or 20 minutes. >Q. All right. How was Kayla's demeanor at the conclusion of this discussion? A. I think she still felt scared, but maybe a little bit more relieved. >Q. All right. Did she, at the end of the conversation, urn, seem confused by anything that she was telling you? A. No.
c'mon man, at one point they gave him a sheet of paper that had two check box options:
-I'm sorry for what I've done. -I'm not sorry for what I've done.
Either is an admission of guilt. Do you think a teenager with a low IQ can understand a trap like this?
They also stressed that he was doing the right thing by giving them information and lied by saying they wanted to help him.
Also they called Brendan a liar over 50 times and asked him some of the same questions over and over until he obviously just made stuff up. Being very candid on the phone with he mother Brendan compared it to guessing in school.
These tactics may be approved... it's not like they waterboarded him, but that doesn't mean those pigs aren't scumbags.
Also lots of young, dumb, or poor people do confess under these circumstances. See the Central Park Five. Multiple kids "confessed" details of a rape/murder they didn't commit. If people like you were in charge those men would still be jail.
>>64580188 What conflict of interest... What were the due process issues? Having worked for a trial court, I watched the documentary and found nothing that seemed really weird except maybe the key. Did see a lot of bias in how some stuff was presented, though, when I compared it to how it went down.
The use of the Reid technique to elicit false confessions is actually quite commonplace. It is now prohibited in Canada, which has had a number of false confessions result in wrongful convictions, and is also banned in several European countries.
>>64580230 Anon, you don't know what a proper interrogation is. A coercive interrogation involves police physically or mentally intimidating someone, etc. The court of appeals said the interrogations weren't coercive. Police are allowed to use approved interrogation tactics; what they did WAS proper. Now, can kids lie when properly interrogated? Yes. But they also tell the truth. Often. That's how police do their job.
>>64580272 -shooting at a corpse also >man >her tarps are a thing I honestly think she was killed in the car or the quarry, which what not garbage evidence left seems to imply. Why they fucked themselves by saying she died in specific areas of the property(bedroom, garage) where shit can show if that's likely the case or not) is beyond me.
>>64580272 We don't know as a fact that no blood dropped from her body. That's the thing about evidence presented in trial... you have to fill in the blanks. Based on the blanks, it's more likely Avery did it than he didn't. Twelve jurors thought so (unless you believe the juror's sob story... the juror who bullshitted about his step-daughter's car accident so he could get out of a jury trial).
>Manitowoc county sheriff's dept claims they're staying out of the investigation to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. Blatantly false. >Key is found by Lenk on the SEVENTH search, four months later. The officer who is not with the Manitowoc county accompanying them did not know he was supposed to be watching them. >Prosecutor Kratz tells the media the gruesome confession Brendan gave, permanently turning the public against Steven and destroying his due process
There's probably way fucking more that I just forgot about, but I think those are the big ones.
>>64580319 Anon, the police department eighteen years later wasn't the same one. People retired. People got promoted. And, no one "purposely fucked him." A sheriff jumped to an assumption and they fucked up.
Also, your point about the lawsuit is understandable because that was a laughably dumb point the show tried to make. I understand why they did it... (1) they didn't really think that argument through, and (2) they needed to show a motive for why police officers might risk their careers to plant evidence. But, the whole theory is just dumb. One, why would the police station give a fuck about a $35 million lawsuit. The police station isn't the one who's gonna pay it. The police officers aren't the ones who are gonna pay it. Nobody there was gonna pay it.
>>64580264 >the fucking 36 million dollar lawsuit is not a conflict of interest >it also wasn't the reason manitowoc county pretended to turn the whole thing over to calumet county
>>64580315 >the person interrogated never volunteers information that can be independently corroborated >the person interrogated only ever repeats information fed to them by investigators >a """"""""""""""""""""""proper""""""""""""""""""""""" interrogation ok ken
>>64580410 >And, no one "purposely fucked him." A sheriff jumped to an assumption and they fucked up.
It's pretty clear they knowingly railroaded Steven as the suspect, ignoring the true suspect. Its very clear from how Colburn doesn't report the city detective telling him they have the wrong guy, and then writes the report the day after Steven gets out 5 years later. You don't remember and do something like that 5 years later unless you had it on your mind for a reason.
>>64580348 The county sheriff staying out of the investigation isn't a strong point because of course they were gonna get involved if needed. They promised to limit their involvement, but investigators needed police equipment (and maybe manpower? can't remember). When you have a murder, you have to move fast. You don't halt an investigation for however many hours/days because you want to stick to some "promise."
Like I said about the key, it's fishy. But it's not impossible that it was a legit mistake. People make mistakes. It doesn't have to be a giant conspiracy.
With your third point... anon, that happens in *every* big trial. Yet, jurors still manage to find defendants not guilty. This isn't as big as you think. There are enough checks and defense tools to filter out any nastiness from media attention.
>lenk is now a lt. instead of a sgt. >colborn is now a sgt. instead of a deputy >the old sheriff retired and the new sheriff was previously the under-sheriff (and the original arresting officer of avery) >colborn doesn't report a phone call from another detective in 1998 containing exculpatory evidence until ten years later, but he's "not trying to fuck him"
>>64580371 The onus was on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt. If there's sufficient overall evidence of guilt, which there apparently was in this case, then that's enough. You don't need to figure out every aspect of the crime. That's not the role of the jury. The role is to decide "guilty" or "not guilty."
>>64580525 Was there only one lieutenant and only one sergeant on that police force? No, there wasn't. Plus, I'm sure there were tons of new arrivals during that time. Point is, this was not literally the same police force.
>>64580490 It's pretty clear that the evidence immediately pointed to Avery, and they assumed it was Avery from an early time. That's true, yes. If you think about it... it makes sense that would happen. If your job is to investigate murders, and all signs point to X, you personally wouldn't go after Y and Z if you thought it would be a waste of time. That's how humans operate.
obviously there was a conflict of interest because they had a nearby county investigate... or at least they claimed to.
>nothing that seemed really weird except maybe the key
how about the following:
- Colburn calling in the plates of the missing vehicle 2 days before it was found. - the bullet in the garage but not a speck of blood anywhere? - SA's blood (presumably from his hand) found in the car, but not his fingerprints - none of Teresa's DNA was found anywhere in the trailer or the garage (except for on the bullet, which was a contaminated test that normally would have been thrown out).
Holy shit that is not good police work. If you have a guy you think is the suspect, and a detective calls you explicitly telling you that you have the wrong guy, under no circumstance is it advisable to ignore that. At the very least you should report it. And if Colburn truly did think he had the right guy and thought the phone call was a waste of time, he wouldn't have remembered it 5 years later and immediately written his report the day after Steven's release.
>>64580563 Yeah, when they made the statement on TV the person who made the statement probably believed that would be the full extent of their contribution. Things change. That doesn't mean it's a lie.
It's possible the key was overlooked and later found. It's also possible a police officer found it and planted it there. There are a hundred other possibilities. Some possibilities might indicate Avery's innocence, but other possibilities don't indicate Avery's innocence. The key by itself isn't anything.
>>64580593 >It's pretty clear that the evidence immediately pointed to Avery, and they assumed it was Avery from an early time. That's true, yes. If you think about it... it makes sense that would happen. If your job is to investigate murders, and all signs point to X, you personally wouldn't go after Y and Z if you thought it would be a waste of time. That's how humans operate.
dude, are you really defending the police not even considering anyone else as a suspect? obviously they should have done some more work, even if SA was the most obvious suspect.
>>64580645 They'd looked through his trailer a bunch of time before they found the key in plain sight on the floor. I guess it isn't impossible but if their investigation was that sloppy that should be questioned, even if you ignore the key. Also, the key should have her DNA on it.
>>64580633 I'm not talking about the first time, anon. The first time was a fuckup by overzealous police. It happens, though.
>>64580601 There wasn't a "conflict of interest," anon. I'm sure it was the police thinking, "yeah, since we fucked up and put this guy in prison for so long, we probably shouldn't be the ones investigating him... it won't look good." That just makes sense.
(1) Colburn thing. Who knows, dude? He probably did a beeline straight to Avery's property once Halbach went missing and found her truck there. I don't know.
(2) Again, who knows. Maybe they cleaned the fuck out of that place, or maybe she wasn't killed there.
I mean, same goes for the rest of your points. You're focusing on such minor things that you're blowing into these big pieces of the puzzle that prove Avery's innocence. They don't prove anything except that Avery's innocence is possible. I agree that it's possible. But based on the massive amount of other evidence, I don't think it's plausible or probable that he's innocent.
>>64576734 #3 - how the FUCK did nothing come of him talking over dispatch about the license plate then saying the car model, without ever seeing it? (because it would have been hidden on avery property)
>Colburn knows about the Rav 4 2 days before Teresa went missing >Colburn neglects to report the phone call from the detective saying they had the wrong guy >Colburn writes the report on the phonecall the day after Steven was released >Detective Fassbender tell the DNA Analyst to "put her in the bed or garage" >Fassbender and Wieber blatantly coerce multiple contradictory confessions out of Brendan WITHOUT permission from his parent or a lawyer present >Len Kachinsky is working for the prosecution instead of his client Brendan >Len Kachinsky is Teresa's cousin >Len Kachinsky hires a guy that forces Brandon to choose from "I'm sorry I did it" or "I'm not sorry I did it" >said guy writes in an email he thinks the Avery's are devils and evil incarnate (keep in mind this is Branden's defense team) >Manitowoc county says they will only provide equipment to the search >Lenk pretty obviously plants the key (has none of Teresa's DNA, found after 7 searches when no one is watching Lenk) >judge dismisses Len Kachinsky for allowing Brendan to be interviewed without a lawyer, yet allows the coerced interview to be used in the trial >two of the jurors on the jury are directly related to Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department
I mean like, what's astounding is I'm sure there's more I forgot about. But how the fuck did all these people get away with it? All these conflicts of interest and lies. How the fuck was no one held accountable?
well, you said, "Nothing really seemed weird except the key." I don't know how you can watch objectively and come to that conclusion. The stuff I stated is certainly weird, no? I wouldn't classify this stuff as "such minor things" either.
And I think Avery did it. However, I also think he shouldn't be in jail for it.
...I also also think that if he hadn't been convicted of this he would have found another way to end up in jail for life.
it's most likely that he or another pig found it while illegally searching Avery's property. however since it wasn't an authorized search he couldn't do anything about it... aside from tipping off the search party people, who somehow found it 15 minutes after entering the lot, lol
>>64580851 With how the documentary portrays it? Yeah, a lot of that stuff looks weird when placed right next to each other. But a lot of it happened in isolation - all these little things occurred, many of which seem like mistakes at first glance until they're placed neatly together and form a narrative. That's the documentary telling that narrative and placing them in that way. By themselves, I don't think some of that stuff is that crazy. I mean, if you took a look at any criminal case you might be able to pull out similar weird/funky seeming things.
>>64580410 >why would the police station give a fuck about a $35 million lawsuit. The police station isn't the one who's gonna pay it. The police officers aren't the ones who are gonna pay it. Nobody there was gonna pay it. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Manitowoc County and not the state of Wisconsin was going to have to pay the $35 million
>>64580863 Anon, links and citations show this technique can evoke false confessions and untrue statements in favor of conviction. Think about this statement. Yes, that's true. Any technique, ultimately, can lead to false confessions and untrue statements. For every expert you hear damn this confession, you'll find many more experts saying it's completely legit and those kids weren't improperly interrogated at all. That's the nature of expert discussion on any topic. You'll ALWAYS find someone who can support your side. What was more damning to me was the documentary didn't portray the OTHER side's argument on ... iirc ... anything expert related.
>>64580906 Was using the word as in conspiracy theory. If you convince yourself that the police tampered with evidence and got an innocent guy convicted, then you'll look at all these little things and see only support for your belief.
>>64580936 The county, not the police station. And counties are financially supported by the state. The police literally have zero skin in the game (aside from personal reputations of course) when sued for violating someone's constitutional rights. You could, I guess, argue they were pissed as fuck and out for blood. But saying police officers were motivated to frame Avery to stop the lawsuit was just a really dumb argument made by the documentary.
>>64581032 Anon, that's not how criminal trials work. You can't really attack the prosecution's case by throwing out tons of theories that are only half-supported by the evidence. If that were true, criminal defendants could point to any single piece of evidence that has a possible weakness and say, "look, there's a possible weakness in this evidence, therefore it's not beyond reasonable doubt that my client did it." If you can't prove to the jury why the evidence should be ignored, then the jury is gonna believe that evidence.
>TA arrives to photograph the van >She is lured inside, hit over the head, tied to bed >1 rapes her >2 comes home from school, visits 1 >2 rapes her, goes home >2 comes back after dinner >more rape >1 hide's TA's car on the lot, and takes the battery out, sloppy job smears blood inside car and DNA on hood >1 carries TA to garage >1 Strangles and shoots TA >2 stabs TA >they burn everything and clean up the floor in the garage
later on >1 tries to move the bones and her camera/phone >police find the bones and move them back to ensure a conviction (hard to get a conviction without the body), they do a sloppy job and miss some at the dump site
End result? 1 kills TA 2 is also complicity
Police plant some evidence to ensure the conviction is air tight.
Even though the series is more about the line between reasonable doubt and innocence here is what I think happened
>Steve has his freaky nature magnified by his time in prison >he wants more than his alchie gf whom he might be embarrased to use the handcuffs on >takes a liking to theresa, whom he has seen at the salvage yard before >calls for her to take all his sales so he can jack off to her after she leaves >begind getting bolder calling her outside her work and hiding his number after she stops answering >plans to rape her possibly using the handcuffs >calls her out and lets her conduct the sale so he can say thats all that happened >as she is getting back in her car he hits her over the head and drags her out takes her to his room and attempts to rape her but she fights so he knocks her out >takes her to the gravel pitt in the car and shoots her in the head so no one hears wraps the wond in her shirt so no dripping blood >takes her to the burn barrel to burn her and her stuff >burns her remains in the burn pit >tries to take some bones to bury at gravel pit but thinks the bonfire will disintegrate the rest >has another bonfire to cover it and invites brendan as an alibi >brendan sees the charred and burnt limbs (like the shin) >goes home >steve moves the car back to its place in the yard
There was no blood in the house or garage because she had no wounds Bobby and the other guy knew she was there and that steve and bobby did it so they made fake stories to ensure they wouldnt be suspected. The cops knew something happened but there was no blood in the car and it had been wiped down and the keys left in the igniton. They then planted the blood (colburn) took the key and placed it in his room(without knowing it had his sweat/dna on it. They then informed the search party to look in steves yard starting from the top and arrest him
"Cleaning up the floor in the garage" is simply not possible for a couple of reasons. First, she was shot 11 times. This means that there should be blood, brain matter and bone fragments everywhere. To sanitize this room would be extremely difficult for even a forensic scientist. The floor is concrete and cracked. meaning the blood has seeped in. The garage is filled with junk for the blood to spatter on to. It would be simple miraculous for Steven and Branden to clean it up. That said, lets say that they managed to clean it. Why is Steven's DNA still in the garage? Why did they leave the shells on the floor? Why didn't they find the bullet?
And if they're smart enough to completely sanitize the garage, why did Steven leave his bloodstains in the car? And why didn't they just crush the car instead?
if you think she was repeatedly raped in the bedroom and then stabbed and shot in the garage, why is there absolutely no evidence other than the bullet? you think they cleaned up every bit of Halbach's DNA?
you're also not accounting for Halbach's blood in the vehicle (the pattern showed that it likely came from her hair). Her body was transported somewhere.
In fact none of the "SA definitely did it!" contrarian crowd here explains why her body would have been in the RAV4. It was definitely transported somewhere, but from the trailer or garage to the burnpile or anywhere else in that small vicinity doens't make sense.
someone from either side explain the blood in the car pls.
>>64581208 yeah they killed her in the garage which was scrubbed with bleach. Dassey's mother basically catches him in the laundry room with bleach stains on his pants, and he says he was helping his uncle clean the garage.
The documentary states something to the effect of: "In the garage they only found Avery's DNA, if he washed TA's blood with bleach there wouldn't be any around."
Which is garbage, because he could have washed her blood with bleach, then used the garage later to hide the fact the floor was just washed.
A retard and his uncle with the same double digit IQ managed to remove all traces of DNA from a fucking bed. Are you seriously arguing this? No one would seriously argue this. Even people who work on crime scenes would have a hard time sanitizing a bed that had a victim of a throat slashing on top.
>>64581267 Unlike shows, criminals usually make really retarded mistakes. Maybe there was blood and they did clean it up. Maybe there was a SHIT TON of blood (unlikely) or less blood than people think (more likely). Maybe it's not as difficult to clean up blood as people think. Lots of maybes that work.
Then why didn't any police officers report smelling bleach? Since the room would have to be fucking drenched in it to get rid of the blood that comes from a throat slashing, or 11 gunshots for that matter.
It could have been that they just laid her body on a tarp or bedsheet. The idea that she was standing up in the garage and he was mindlessly shooting at her doesn't make sense.
She was exhausted and beaten, lying curled up on the floor possibly covered by some tarp or sheet. As she's getting stabbed and shot, there is blood on the concrete yes, but all of the splatter and DNA would be going down and around the floor. Especially if they cleared out a few square meters of floor space to kill her on.
Why is her blood in the car is curious. In my version of event's she scrambles and runs to her car at one point trying to get away from Avery, he catches her before she can fully get away and there is some struggle in the car itself. But it could have been that he put her body in there and killed/burned her somewhere else, burned the bed sheets and his clothes in a bonfire on his property later that night, and someone else moved her bones to his bonfire later to frame him.
Didn't insurance refuse to pay out because it was proven the police mishandled the case? They were insured for negligence not deliberate misconduct. So it would be Manitowoc County and the police officers paying for the lawsuit.
>>64581406 >but all of the splatter and DNA would be going down and around the floor.
You have never shot anything before. Go look up some videos on youtube of what it looks like when something gets shot with a .22. I'll give you a hint: its not a neat or tidy. Also if she's raped there's semen, vaginal fluids, hair, sweat and rope fibers in the bedroom.
>>64581430 It would be the entity that was sued, not the police officers in their individual capacity.. unless for whatever reason the police officers were individually sued (why sue a guy making $40k when you can sue the state?). So, the police officers still would not be paying for the suit.
Bleach doesn't destroy all DNA. Also shooting her in the garage would have created a lot of blood spatter among all that junk in the garage.
It's not really worth discussing this with someone who believes major portions of this crime took place in the garage or bedroom.
Teresa's blood in the car combined with the fact that absolutely none of her DNA was in the trailer or garage shows pretty clearly in my mind that the murder took place at a different location. If you think he cleaned up all DNA in the trailer/garage but left both his own blood and Teresa's blood in the car, I don't think your opinion is worth much.
>>64581440 >Officers don't report everything they smell, retard, their house likely fucking stinks anyway of shit, piss and alcohol like most redneck trailer trash homes.
Oh my fucking top kek, now you're just making shit up to match your narrative. Bleach smells stronger than anything natural odor, and the video where they root through the house would have mentioned distinct odors since they're making casual comments like "check those shoes for unsolved case prints"
>>64581469 Again, anon, that's not how these lawsuits typically work. Usually it's a county / police department that's sued. Sometimes key officers involved in the incident are sued, but the state/department is almost always sued because they're the ones with the money. So, again, the police weren't actually in jeopardy unless you're talking about the Manitowoc County Police Department as a whole... but it makes no sense for the whole police department to have been in on it.
Thank you, look at all that fucking microscopic spatter. There are literally people in this thread RIGHT NOW that think you could do that 11 times, and use bleach to get rid of it all. These guys literally think that bleach can somehow remove all traces of DNA, and that these 70 IQ retards were smart enough to do it perfectly to the point where not a single iota of Teresa's DNA was found and forgot about the bloodstains in the car. What the fuck man
>>64581534 Fair enough, I personally don't lnow enough about the proceds or logistics to argue otherwise, but it still strikes me weird that Manitowoc county specifically stated it wouldn't be involved in the investigation and not only is that not true its the officers that were named and interviewed for the deposition months prior that make major breakthroughs in the case.
>>64581114 honestly linking the calls to steven was flimsy when they couldn't even be assed to work on her phone to try to find out what may have been deleted during the period she was still missing
it really seems to me the boyfriend was the one harassing her at work, but it may not necessarily be involved with her death
considering that the car was located while she was still missing and the cops made sure to involve her boyfriend and brother; its's possible the boyfriend got to the car with her phone inside and fucked with the messages, maybe even getting DNA of his on her key at that time if not before, hence why it had to be wiped and SA's DNA introduced
the burning of the body is what puts me away from ryan and towards the avery(s) since it is much easier for (one of)them to handle the burning without notice. doesn't rule out ryan to me completely, but the burning is what would have me to veer away from him somewhat if i were investigating
>>64581282 people are too busy trying to work with the shitty stories of the prosecution through the evidence(since due to the poor investigation that mainly what's left) than with the evidence through the shitty stories. i'm thinking she was attacked near the car(maybe at the junkyard) and placed there soon after and taken to the "dump site(s)" or to gather tools to finish her off(may have been alive at the original tranportation)
>>64581631 There's a difference between looking back with 20/20 hindsight and pointing out all the things the police could have done better ... and the police doing something so bad that evidence isn't allowed in. I mean, what evidence shouldn't have been allowed in and for what reason? Why should the judge have stopped the trial?
>>64581682 Yeah, and he wasn't guilty then. But he was guilty now. Why do people think he is a saint who was wrongly convicted? He was convicted in the last because he had a history with the police, including sexual acts like exposing himself.
If he hadn't spent those 18 years in jail, he would have raped or killed someone a lot sooner.
I don't think the police killed her, but I think someone else on the Avery salvage property killed her.
The police probably trespassed on the property and found the car, then gave that info to the search party. That's why the brother and ex-boyfriend are sketchy as hell, and also why they are 100% certain of Steven's guilt. But to distance themselves, they sent that other lady in with the camera.
Then they got frustrated at the lack of evidence and planted it, to make sure they finally got him.
I think Bobby or Scott killed her. Maybe both. They were each other's alibis, and their alibis were a little too tight. They also had similar rifles. And Bobby's timeline was contradicted by the bus driver.
He/They burned the body and belongings in the barrel, then spread it into Steven's fire. The key to the car was likely left in the car, and the police recovered it and put it in the bedroom.
Steven just doesn't seem that stupid to kill a girl when everyone knew she was there, then not crush her car, then leave the key in his bedroom, while calmly calling his fiance and having the most normal conversation ever. But I could be wrong.
What I definitely think is bullshit is that she was killed in the garage. That bullet is 100% planted evidence.
If Steven killed her, then he followed her down the road, ran her off the road, held her by gunpoint like he did to his cousin, they got into a tangle and he shot her in the head. He then probably tossed her in the trunk, maybe cut his finger trying to throw her in, then drove to his salvage, parked it and covered it and burned her in 1 of the 3 spots.
>>64581488 It's quite likely she was killed somewhere else (maybe around where the original burned bones are found) and the police realizing they couldn't prove Avery did it just moved her bones back onto his property and planted the key and bullet to make sure he gets convicted.
There is no Avery is innocent theory which can explain why his DNA is on the hood of the car and his blood is near the ignition that can also explain why TA's blood is in the car.
Let's say her car has trouble starting, so he offers to check it, his finger is bleeding so when he goes to start the engine he leaves a small blood smear behind near the ignition, he then pops the hood and checks the battery / replaces it. She leaves unharmed. Later she stops for a hitchhiker on the road who kills her, and wearing gloves transports her body in her own car to a remote place to burn it, he then dumps the car somewhere.
Police find the abandoned car but no TA. They search the area and find her burned remains, they decide to frame SA, dump her bones on his property (During the 7+ days they are searching it), dump her car on his property, plant the key in his room, etc.
Problem with this theory is a bullet from his gun was shot through her. So explain the bullet? You could come up with more convoluted theories like the police find her body after she's killed herself, and decide to shoot Avery's gun through her to plant as incriminating evidence later. But if you go to that trouble why not just smear her blood on his bed or garage.
Nah its obvious he killed her somehow, dumped her car lazily on his own lot and assumed without a body or blood on his property they could never pin it on him.
>>64581662 >the burning of the body is what puts me away from ryan and towards the avery(s) since it is much easier for (one of)them to handle the burning without notice. except why burn a body at the quarry and then move it to your firepit.
>>64582037 lots of similarities tho >huge media attention biased towards the prosecutor >life in prison if convicted >bleeding heart asshole of a prosecutor who can't into physical evidence >defendant probably an asshole but must be entitled to justice anyway
>>64582005 i mention the burning since it was likely an open fire, and that means someone would have had to keep it roaring hot for days to do the damage it did i don't think the body was moved to pit, at least not as part of the burning from the quarry i'm partial to some amount of remains being moved there; it's hard not to be with the blatantly planted key(7th search and he lived in a fucking trailer) and almost as blatantly planted bullet(i still don't get how people say he could have cleaned up the blood well but not the single fucking bullet out of eleven)
>>64582193 Fact is theresa halbachs body was in the trunk and very bloody. Why use her car to transport then burn the body a mile away only to drive back and burn the rest of her in the firepit? And then not crush the car after?
>>64582308 >burn the rest of her i'm saying that wasn't the case she was burned it one spot(quarry) her remains found there and some moved to the firepit to push the avery theory whoever moved the body probably didn't put the car where it was "found" later (colburn, the boyfriend, and the brother are very suspicious in this)
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