The more I think about it, the more I realize that Kylo Ren being Han and Leia's son is totally at odds with his motivations.
This has been bugging me for a while. Why the fuck would Kylo idolize Vader? What reason would he have to do so? Wouldn't Han and Leia be, all things considered, loving parents? Wouldn't he be in good hands with Uncle Luke? Wouldn't all the other children Luke was teaching look up to him or at least find him cool since he was Cool Jedi Luke's nephew, as well as General Organa's son and shit? I can't really see a reason as to why he'd feel the temptation to the Dark Side, even if Snoke supposedly seduced him into it. Seems to me that anyone related to Vader would think of him like one would think of some relative who murdered someone and served a life sentence or something. Like, "Yep, that was my grandfather. He killed someone," you know?
Wouldn't it make more sense if Kylo Ren were just some random apprentice Luke was teaching? Someone who was dealt a bad hand in life before being sent to Luke, maybe having suffered a bit of bullying here and there? That sounds like exactly the sort who'd look up to, and idolize Vader, having no real idea what the man was really like. Honestly seems like that would actually make much more sense and put him more in line with his motivations than making him Han's son. Seems like all that shit was just shoe-horned in to me.
>Why the fuck would Kylo idolize Vader?
Because Vader was the poster child for Palpatine's Sith Empire. He's the face of the most recent Jedi purge. AND he's his grandfather. All that combine with Ben being manipulated by Snoke and the Dark Side.
>Wouldn't Han and Leia be, all things considered, loving parents?
Well, lets see. The Princess of a no longer existing planet who joined a military like group and a criminal smuggler wanted by bounty hunters and crime lords? Yeah, that's a recipee for a great family.
>Wouldn't he be in good hands with Uncle Luke? Wouldn't all the other children Luke was teaching look up to him or at least find him cool since he was Cool Jedi Luke's nephew, as well as General Organa's son and shit?
We really don't know what Luke's academy was like but odds are Ben was the most emotionally fragile as well as being the most powerful being related to Anakin, so he was the most obvious target for Snoke to corrupt.
>I can't really see a reason as to why he'd feel the temptation to the Dark Side
See all of the above.
>Well, lets see. The Princess of a no longer existing planet who joined a military like group and a criminal smuggler wanted by bounty hunters and crime lords? Yeah, that's a recipee for a great family.
Han and Leia went to have obviously peaceful lives if they had Ben, Plus Han was a former smuggler who joined up with the rebels to bring back the Republic.
It seems like Kylo is the enforcer of the First Order but OP's question is pretty valid as to why.
You're just bringing up reasons from the first movie that were brought up in the sequels
I like Kylo Ren. I like that he's not really the Vader-esque badass people wanted him to be. I think he's a good character all things considered, but I think he'd be better if he were just some random kid who felt a temptation to the Dark Side rather than Han's son.
>Because Vader was the poster child for Palpatine's Sith Empire. He's the face of the most recent Jedi purge. AND he's his grandfather. All that combine with Ben being manipulated by Snoke and the Dark Side.
You'd think being RAISED by Han and Leia, he'd know that Vader and the Empire were kinda-sorta the bad guys. Vader being his grandfather is kind of irrelevant when you realize his mother and father both were celebrated war heroes with a lot of respect from the Rebels. He was raised entirely away from remnants of the Empire or the First Order. If anything, he would have every reason to turn out pretty damn well, all things considered.
>Well, lets see. The Princess of a no longer existing planet who joined a military like group and a criminal smuggler wanted by bounty hunters and crime lords? Yeah, that's a recipee for a great family.
Han you kinda have a point of, although you'd think after RotJ he'd have much more respect and wouldn't have to resort to smuggling still. Leia on the other hand, would probably be a loving, caring mother despite her position and would have enough pull to send her son wherever she, Han, or even Ben Solo would want to go. Not to mention the inherent respect that would come from that. "Hey Ben, your mother and father fought against the Empire and your mother is Leia Organa herself? Cool, dude. Wanna be friends?"
>We really don't know what Luke's academy was like but odds are Ben was the most emotionally fragile as well as being the most powerful being related to Anakin, so he was the most obvious target for Snoke to corrupt.
Why would he be the most emotionally fragile? Both of his immediate parents were pretty strong people.
>grow up in a shitty dirt covered temple being taught in the most frustrating manner possible by your crazy uncle
>in hiding because your parents and uncle are criminals who killed the leader of the Galaxy.
>learn that your grandfather used to be the 2nd most powerful person in the Galaxy before your parents fucked it up.
>he would have taught you the dark side of the force which is way easier than whatever Yoda inspired horseshit training uncle Luke is pushing on you every day.
>the other students give you shit for being a garbage force user and only being here at all because the teacher is your uncle.
>one night, while you're crying yourself to sleep, a powerful presence offers to teach you in the way of your grandfather.
Basically kylo Ren is /pol/ and Vader is Hitler.
You need to stop ignoring the actual movie the character we're discussing is from.
TFA implies that, regardless of speculations, Ben did not have a pleasant upbringing. Hell, we don't even know at what age he ended up being trained by Luke. I doubt Han and Leia were living at Luke's academy. That's years he would've spent away from them as well as whatever experiences he may have had with them, if he was even old enough to remember those years.
>son of decorated war hero parents
>mother held in high esteem by the Republic, which many view as the proper government of the galaxy and having plenty of military power
>sent to learn cool as shit Jedi powers and whatnot by your chill as fuck uncle
>probably rich as hell in addition to that
>all your peers think you're fucking awesome for being the rich son of two highly respected legends who helped defeat the Empire back in the day
My point is the above: he would have NO reason to have a difficult upbringing. If anything, he should have EVERY reason to be a cool as fuck dude with a lot of self-esteem. Movie would've been better if Kylo Ren were someone else Luke was mentoring and if Han and Leia's actual son were one of the sole survivors of Kylo's massacre of Luke's students, being a prominent member of the Resistance and Kylo's sworn enemy.
That sounds much more interesting actually.
That their son turned to the Dark ide isn't that weird. Could happen to the best person.
It's the fact that JJA wants us to accept that Han and Leia would just go on with their lives and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT FOR DECADES that's a hard pill to swallow.
Fuck that shit! Even ANH Han came back for Luke, and he was a selfish asshole who knew the kid and Leia for a short time.
And Luke... just chilling and doing a Yoda? Fuck. That's the guy who wouldn't accept the old fart Jedi rules and would give his life to just try and save his friends. FUCK!
Kylo is the true hero of TFA. His family is the worst. They don't even give a fuck.
>a busy politician and a former criminal cannot possibly be good parents
Considering they're pretty smart and of good moral character, I can't see why they wouldn't be decent parents at least.
Not like that shit would ever be permanent or that they couldn't ever visit him or anything. Sounds like fun padawan summer camp actually.
Han is FAR from smart and I agree its possible that they could have been good parents but to say there's no way they could be bad parents is just idiotic. There's nowhere near enough characterization and development in ANY of the movies for us to know that one way or another.
I kept on wondering just how the hell they let their son become corrupted so easily without doing anything about it. I don't see how they could ever have been so estranged from their son. Even kids who fuck up and get their ass sent to juvie, even their parents give a fuck about them most of the time and actually try to help them.
Luke especially I was wondering, where the hell is he? I don't see Luke as being someone who'd just let all that shit go down without doing anything about it.
no the retarded shit is that this fucker idolizes Vader, at the end of RoTJ anakin redeems himself and becomes a force ghost, so why did he not a some point appear in front of lil ben and tell him to stop all that shit and for fuck sake stop wearing a mask to emulate his own critical asthma iron lung suit shit.
>I kept on wondering just how the hell they let their son become corrupted so easily without doing anything about it.
What exactly do you think they could do?
He was taken by Snoke. Did you think they'd magically track down and defeat the First Order themselves?
There was nothing Han and Leia could do. Ben's corruption took place at the Academy and after the massacre he was gone. And look exiled himself after the disgrace of being unable to stop it. DID YOU PEOPLE EVEN WATCH THE MOVIE?
Leia definitely seems the type to be a good mother and a good wife. Seems like the type who'd verbally smack Han around and force him to be a good father too.
I don't see how Ben could've fallen to the Dark Side with those two, honestly.
Fuck you, I had shitty teenaged years and I'm still struggling with depression. But I'm still not Kylo Ren and probably will never be, because I'm not an edgy faggot.
>I don't see how Ben could've fallen to the Dark Side with those two, honestly.
Well if you're just going to keep repeating "I just don't see it" even when valid points are brought up what the fuck are you even having this discussion for?
Luke couldn't have gotten them together, tracked down Snoke and Ben, along with a bunch of other Resistance members, and rescued Ben? They never even tried to?
Fucking come on, m8. By that point, Luke would've been one of the most powerful Force users in the galaxy. What the fuck would he be afraid of?
The way they could have made it work is by having Han and Leia think that Ben was dead the whole time.
Luke being an unstable Jedi who was half crazy would also work. That would explain why he didn't just tell Han and his siter that thier son was still alive and shit.
But that's not what we got. What we got was Han and Leia bonding with, and trusting, Rey and Finn and rubbing it in Kylo's face.
The point is that they wouldn't give up. Han was just smuggling shit and having a somewhat good time of it. Fuck his son. Luke was just on the Hot Springs planet and was Force fucking the locale populace (or meditating, whatever). At least Leia was fighting the FO.
It's definitely very questionable writing. It seems like something that's the only way it is because the creators wrote it the way it was and said, "Look, don't question it, this is how it is," even though it doesn't fully make sense.
>Leia never did anything with force, just stayed in the private military business because she never got over Alderaan getting BTFO
>Military life was never going to work for Han. Tried to make it work for Leia and the kid, but eventually had to get away from Leia's PMC bullshit. Went from victorious general to losing the Falcon and smuggling deadly cargo way past retirement age. Things obviously did not shake out for Han.
>They drop the kid off with Luke because he's the only one dealing with that crazy Force stuff. Even if Uncle Luke was stable compared to mom and dad, it's probably still a shit environment to grow up in while Luke is just making up the academy shit as he goes along.
>Without any personal insight into Anakin Skywalker, the myth of Darth Vader the badass cyborg probably comes across as a guy who had his shit together.
>The point is that they wouldn't give up.
IT WAS YEARS. Possibly a decade. Luke is GONE, the only Force Sensitive they know. The First Order, a HUGE nazi like regime with a planet destroying weapon whom the Republic refuses to do anything about are the only real link. The fuck COULD they do? Of course they'd give the fuck up. They couldn't even have known he was alive other than Leia "sensing" it. Look at any couple who have their child abducted. Most give up at some point.
I agree that the writing isn't great, but Ben's corruption is not a problem.
>Tried to make it work for Leia and the kid, but eventually had to get away from Leia's PMC bullshit
Han states that he went back to smuggling only after Ben was abducted.
Seriously? Was nobody paying attention to the movie?
>IT WAS YEARS. Possibly a decade. Luke is GONE, the only Force Sensitive they know. The First Order, a HUGE nazi like regime with a planet destroying weapon whom the Republic refuses to do anything about are the only real link. The fuck COULD they do? Of course they'd give the fuck up. They couldn't even have known he was alive other than Leia "sensing" it. Look at any couple who have their child abducted. Most give up at some point.
Ehhh...I kinda agree with this.
I think it only really works if Snoke abducts Ben as a child and psychologically breaks him from there, with Ben not having contact with his parents for years.
>be the spoiled, only child of a princess and a badass smuggler, both heroes of the New Republic and the Rebellion
>your uncle is literally the symbol of hope
>your grandfather is the chosen one of the cosmic entity that runs the universe (or maybe JUST your galaxy)
>your grandfather was also the most powerful being both on the light and the dark side
>you are the heir to the jedi name
>they send you to learn with your uncle who everyone looks up to
>you realise you are not really the best at the academy and some people are better than you
>you might get picked on a bit from literal whos because you are the nephew of the headmaster
>some guy comes around
>"yo kid, wanna become powerful and show these pathetic fucks what you are worth?"
>congratulations, you Kylo Ren now senpai
>#1 Not having paid attention to the movie
Except that I did. I didn't dislike the movie either.
>and #2 Not remembering that there are two more movies worth of plot to fill in the gaps
I guess we're not allowed to discuss movies on /tv/ then, or specifically, trilogies before they're over.
The best explanation I've heard so far OP is that he found it hard to live in the shadow of his two famous parents and uncle. He was seduced to the dark side by being told he would be able to make his own destiny if he followed vader.
>it's not in the movie
Something that could be said about ever other plot point, theme or motif in this flick.
That's not a timeline, they obviously dropped him off with Luke before he was kidnapped. Han being unhappy but sticking around would totally feed into that angsty teenager bullshit that gets him into a patricidal mood.
How can it be bad writing when it hasn't even been written yet? You are aware that there's a sequel right? You think that Luke won't discuss in greater detail what happened to his little academy and what were the reasons for Kylo's turn to the dark side?
I don't understand what your point is and I absolutely did not try to imply Ben was kidnapped before being brought to Luke because that makes no fucking sense.
Han and Leia are talking and he says something along the lines of "After Ben was gone I turned back to the only thing I was good at."
Let's be honest, TFA could've used more exposition all around.
A lot of people weren't sure why the First Order were around or so powerful, who the Resistance were, what the political situation in the galaxy was even like, how Poe vanished and then came back after crashing in the TIE fighter, and so on.
Fuck Han. He basically says he stopped trying to get Ben back. He gave up on him. Leia was still fighting the FO. She never completely gave up. Luke... we don't know WHY he's an ermit now, not really. But Han? I'm glad that cunt his dead. TFA ruined his character for me. I could have taken a broken up Han, a drunk Han, etc. But what we got was just ANH Han. Fuck. You.
Its hardly surprising considering everything we know about him from the previous movies. It just means that everything we saw him do was literally the highlight of his life. Him doing good for once. He was reluctant at first even if I remember right. Yeah, he came back for look. But Luke was basically a kid and even a smuggler has limits.
>Luke... we don't know WHY he's an ermit now, not really.
A Sith Lord corrupted his nephew from right underneath his nose and had him kill who knows how many children. He failed all of them. Such an incident could easily drive him to become a hermit.
So then I'm not understanding your issue. Leia is obviously fucked up, which is hard to blame her for because bad guys are STILL making Death Stars, so she never does anything with the force or politics and stays the warrior princess forever.
Han fakes it with general gig and being a dad, but when destiny shit like The Force steps in and fucks his shit up, he goes back to square one. He's never been cut out for the Skywalker's "chosen one" family drama anyway.
You know one thing about TFA that I don't really like is that all the good characters kinda ended up as screw ups. I think that's something more and more people will have a problem with as time goes and and people start thinking about them more.
Even the victory at the end of RotJ is undermined by the First Order's existence.
That doesn't sound like Luke. Luke would still try to save Ben, like he tried to save Vader.
This reeks of Pottery for the sake of Pottery. Luke is now the Obi-Wan/Yoda character and must be an hermit because of it.
The only character that isn't 100% a screw up is Leia, because she's still fighting the fight.
You know... I think they should have had the movie set after the original characters (not actors) were dead. Maybe leave a droid or a Wookie as a cameo/plot exposition character.
Have Luke and the others be legends, who did great things and had a good life, but the Dark Side is now back or something.
>smugglin dem smuggles all day with your bro
>kid comes with old guy
>just another day of smugglin with your bro
>"plz halp with rescue princess Han"
>"Han plz halp defeat empire"
>hmmmmmmmmmm fuck that, I'm gonna help that kid
>guess we rebel now bro
>that princess has top tit game but is tsun as fuck
>gotta tap that
>they save me
>we defeat empire
>nice, back to smugglin dem sm
>this ho is pregnant and I'm still rebel hero
>guess I could try
>nah this shit ain't for me, I'm not a good dad, but I gotta stick with my son because father instincts
>maybe if we drop him off with his uncle and I can get back to tapping princess of space rocks
>son gets DARK'D
>marriage is broken
>nope. Fuck this. I'm back to smugglin dem smuggles.
It wasn't really that out of character desu.
>That doesn't sound like Luke.
Again, Luke never experienced anything like this.
He wasn't even born when the Jedi purge happened and the youngling's killed, he wasn't trained well enough in the Force to feel the weight of all those killed in the attacks using the Death Star. This could have been his first real experience in sensing a tragedy and it happened right behind his back to children he knew and was training. The Luke we knew was not the Luke who would've been training them in the first place.
Kenobi was close to Anakin and was trying to save him too. If the dude's emotionally fucked up that bad, Luke's not going to have an angle unless he brings in a 3rd party.
Luke probably won't trick his kid into trying to kill him, but that's the kind of new angle he needs.
Except that he DID experience it, with his Aunt and Uncle in ANH, with his Rebel friends in TESB and RotJ. Luke went trhough shit, saw his friends die numerous times, etc.
He never gave up on Han, he never gave up on fucking VADER. You think he would give up on Ben? The massacre would make him try even more to get Ben back. You think Luke would leave his nephew to the likes of Snokes just like that?
It's like if Luke said fuck it and let Leia be turned into a Sith by Sheev because he was having an emo moment because Han was in carbonite.
>The massacre would make him try even more to get Ben back.
Says who? What makes you think you know how Luke, an inexperienced teacher and the only Jedi there would feel after all the child that were HIS responsibility and that he was effectively raising (the number of which we don't even know) were killed just because he couldn't sense Snoke manipulating his own nephew. He failed the Jedi, the children, their parents, his sister, Han, Ben, the galaxy itself.
In the OT Luke had a drive, a motivation, he had to become a jedi, he had to train new people, he had to keep going until the end. At the end of the OT he achieved that, his lifelong dream. He made his masters and his fsther proud and brought hope to the galaxy. It's going well, you feel like yeah, I'm good at this, all that training and all those terrible that happened made me strong and responsible enough for training the new je-
Ben just fucked it up. In a moments notice, everything, EVERYTHING you have worked for in the past 30+ years is gone. And you are responsible, because you didn't notice the signs in time. Everyone is dead, your dreams included. What would you do?
The OT, that how I "know" how Luke would react. We saw similar situations in the 3 movies. We saw Ben and Yoda trying to make Luke pussy out, play it safe, and he wouldn't do it.
We saw him fail and not give up. Did Luke went into exile after getting his hand cut off and learning that Vader was his dad? No. He was even more resolute. When Ben and Yoda told him to kill him, he said fuck you, I don't give up on people.
I would do SOMETHING. Unlike TFA's Han and Luke.
Fuck them. That movie was just weird. Even the Chewbacca shooting Kylo was weird. that's your godson or something, you furball! The movie made a point of showing how conflicted Kylo was about killing Han, and you just put a cheering "Chewie shot the bastard" moment right after?
I look for him. I don't fucking give up and get over it by becoming an hermit or by going back to smuggling shit. I saty with the Resistance, for one.
Fuck, having Han pretending to still be a smuggler, but it be part of his Resistance cover would have solved it. Having Luke dispaear on a mission instead of saying fuck it and going on his own would have solved it.
JJ spoke about this in an interview. He idolises Vader, not Anakin. I assume it's like this: he really fucking wants to be Vader, but he isn't going to turn to the light side, Vader fucked that up, he isn't going to. He is stronger than that.
Imagine it like this, there is a guy you look up to, but you don't agree with one of his choices. It happens. Vaders carrier doesn't just consist of being evil and then he redeems himself
>he turned on the hypocritical jedi order and wiped them out "by himself"
>he got defeated to the point of almost-death but he kept going
>he hunted down the remaining jedi
>he was feared throughout the galaxy
>he was an excellent fighter pilot
Kylo most likely worships these traits.
Yeah that's bugging me too. Kylo sees him as some kind of dark side god but in fact his idol eventually returned to the light and all Anakin would have to do is tell him. Perhaps Snoke is preventing it somehow.
I'm sorry, I just don't think you have a good enough understanding of how such events effect people emotionally and psychologically. You sound like you have no understanding of what its like to go through such a traumatic events and to have to live with it for years. Not to mention, every time looking at Leia would be a constant reminder of how you failed as a father and husband.
Yeah, they did.
I grew up with a dad like that. He always came back and they are still together, but watching your parents fight and your dad just leave into the night alone leaving you there alone with your furious mother isn't doing wonders for your personality development.
It's a movie. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic.
Just say that han was smuggling again, but with the goal of finding out some things about his son's location. That's the fucking plot of the series Starhunter, and it wouldn't make Han come off as such an uncaring bastard.
Also, for someone so scared emotionally, he sure bonded fast with Rey and Finn. Like the kids he never had... Ben who?
I guess that's what makes it more realistic. It feels more human. They are traumatized and they cope with their loss and guilt in different ways. You see this in real life too. An event on this scale fucks up people really bad.
Probably not. Your upbringing didn't make you strong, it made you kind of an insecure loser, right? Though you can probably be an asshole at times, you'd be a terrible movie villain.
That's what Kylo Ren is. He's not even a villain, he's just a lame dick.
What niggas? You don't know who the fuck is responsible and all the children you were responsible for are dead you stupid cunt. He didn't try shit, he DID shit and you failed completely to stop or even sense it.
Hans a smuggler, a rogue. He almost didn't join the rebellion at all but he wanted that princess poon. Ben was a mistake and Leia wouldn't space abort. Han maybe tried to settle down, be a dad, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of his character.
Ben isn't very strong in the force but as an edge master descended from Vader he thinks he should be stronger than he is with little effort. He gets frustrated too easily, so snoke convinces him to take the easier path to the power he believes he deserves. Kylo constantly overestimates his abilities and rages when his weakness is exposed.
And how do you make the connection from a single boy killing all the trainees at a Jedi academy to the nazis would have no knowable connection to the Jedi or the Sith? Or do you just go around picking fights because your stupid, don't know what to do and want to get yourself killed?
He didn't even know if Alderaan was a planet, it could've been a nightclub with some good bluemilk on the tap for all he knew. Leia on the other hand started being really fucking active in the rebellion. To get revenge on the empire that has made her life worse constantly. It was a last straw for her so to say.
Imagine it like this, you get slapped in the face constantly and finally you hit back. Thats the OT. In TFA something just stabs you in the back out of the blue and you don't even know what the fuck is going on.
>Imagine it like this, you get slapped in the face constantly and finally you hit back. Thats the OT. In TFA something just stabs you in the back out of the blue and you don't even know what the fuck is going on.
They don't overcome because they don't even try.
They're making your hero fallible, and there's making them cunt pussies.
Han is a deadbeat dad. Luke is a coward.
Even Ben and Yoda had a good reason to be hermits. Not just a Muh Emotional Pain one. Vader didn't even fucking know his kids were still alive, and when he found out he was all about family reunion (in a Dark Side way, but whatev). When fucking Darth "Youngling Killer" Vader is a better dad than you, you have issues.
>no knowable connection to the Jedi or the Sith
>evil empire ran by a Sith lord
>nah, the remnants of the evil empire can't have anything to do with the dark side or try to corrupt Jedi padawans! That would be ridiculous!
>Luke is a coward.
LUKE HAD ALL THE CHILDREN HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR AS WELL AS POSSIBLY HIS FUCKING WIFE KILLED BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SENSE A SITH MANIPULATING HIS OWN NEPHEW IN HIS OWN SCHOOL.
He isn't a coward, he's fucking devastated and confused.
See, this is proof that you're too stupid to look at this from another point of view.
Yes, YOU saw the movie. But if you were Han, you wouldn't have because YOU'D BE FUCKING HAN.
When Ben was kidnapped, do we know if the First Order had blatant Sith connections? No, we don't fucking know. So how the fuck would you?
Why does he idolize Vader? Because it keeps an otherwise dead character alive so they can sell toys of him.
Any time you can't explain a character's motivations or a design decision in SW, it's usually to sell toys.
>you're too stupid to look at this from another point of view
from Luke's POV:
>defeat evil Sith empire
>remnant of that empire survives, still pretty clearly evil and probably revanchist
>a padawan gets corrupted by the dark side and fucks up the base
You'd imagine a wise space wizard would make the fairly obvious connection there
>a very very unlikely possibility
Not particularly unlikely, especially given that a dark side user/Sith managed to convert one of your own so you know for a fact they're still active. It's not some Sherlock Holmes shit to connect that to the remnants of the Sith empire
Not really, there were a lot of instances in the old EU where there were no corrupting, only some jedi discovering that "Yo I can hate you to death with the force" and they turn to the dark side. The first order at that time was basicly what neo nazis are today. They weren't that much of a threat and nobody gave a shit about them. Thats why the resistance was formed. The new republic had bigger stuff to do than give attention to space neo nazis. Then eventually the two events connected and they realised that the guy who turned Ben to the Dark Side was basicly the same guy who was the neo emperor of that random suspicious group.
Nah, some of the "details" have already been contradicted by JJA in interviews. The Rey/Kylo fight in particular. The whole book thing about the weird dark side voice didn't happen according to him.
>The only character that isn't 100% a screw up is Leia, because she's still fighting the fight
Leia is a lonely old woman who lost the love of her life and her son while his only family left fuck off and become a hobo
Do you think Luke would neglect his own nephew while he was at the academy?
The only way Kylo Ren turning to the Dark Side makes sense is if Ben was initially trained to become a Grey Jedi by Luke but it didn't work, making Ben unstable Luke will finally succeed with his daughter, Rey, and Finn Kylo will be redeemed at the end of episode IX by Rey, leaving us with 3 Jedi main characters and a pilot for the next trilogy