Last poll got hijacked by bots so I'm doing this again
Which flick is better?
Rots had nothing going for it, and was boring and charmless
Just becsuse TFA borrowed plot devices (may i point out the archetypal quest structure used in tfa, one which was completely lacking in any of the prequels) doesnt mean its by any means worse. In fact the plot worked to its advantage because they could make everything else likeable, unlike anything in ROTS
>it's star wars so they must be contrarian!
Snooky is displeased. Snooky want smoosh smoosh.
everyone who says Revenge is shit, go put it on and tell me that intro with the drums over coruscant and the assault on greivous' ship isnt the best intro to a star wars film ever.
TFA is fucking awful. i thought people here had taste. revenge is objectively better and thats fact
Gonna post poll on reddit so that they vote TFA. They won, after all.
if you take away the lightsabers and the obvious faces, TFA is just a high budget, fancy effects flick which is just using sw as a mask.
there is nothing star wars about TFA, and it makes me sad that people consider it a respectable part of the franchise
This scene alone is better than all of TFA.
Revenge of the Sith is painted in broad brush strokes. It is played out a mammoth stage by actors with megaphones. It is Big and Bold. It is outrageously epic geographically and emotionally. The symbolism is grand too and because it is in keeping with the story's sweep it does not unbalance the story.
On this scene, at the Opera House, the Mon Calamari put on a show where sperm-like ribbons float in and out of a massive watery egg. The discussion between the Chancellor and Anakin about the creation of life cements the visual message.
>"Ironic isn't it? ...He could save others but not himself" - Sheev
>"He saved others, let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" - Priest Luke 23:35
The director George Lucas uses the language of Christian heritage, words already resonant with meaning, as stepping stones to a greater understanding. In this way he subtly illuminates for us the roles, the motivations and the size of what is at stake.
>it's a good movie cuz in the beginning there was lots of lasers and spaceships exploding with music
there was nothing like this in TFA. no indepth conversations, no substance. just nothing of interest. TFA is a fast paced action flick on par with flicks like transformers, and people actually rate it as a decent film! lmao
If you look at the original films, Luke has a (foster) family; he participates. He does his chores (there is a sense of social responsibility). He's ordinary. Rey is a loner and a survivor, and clearly extraordinary in her abilities across the board, with no responsibilities. Luke is a slightly dorky teenager to whom we can relate - he seeks a role model; Rey is beautiful and dynamic - orphaned, but with no need of parental guidance. The orphan trope itself has become somewhat selfish, and speaks to a certain narcissism of modern independence. The film is not really not focussed on a social dynamic, nor the idea of any kind of altruism; they're presenting you with new characters whose primary motivations are selfish.
Rey doesn't decide to leave and pursue Luke; she escapes Jakku and then tries to return. There is no heroic motivation for her, and that she forgets about going home in favour of finding Luke is convenient but never given a believable basis. Luke decided to rescue someone.
>Revenge of the Shit winning
Fuck you guys so hard.
There are 3 reasons for liking TFA:
1. Graphical fulfillment
2. Believing a film has value for the number of diversity boxes it checks
3. Marvelesque dialogue that priorities humorous quips over substantive character development, using the emotions they generate to disguise the superficial interactions between characters.
I really don't know an adequate answer that would be satisfying.
TFA would win if the competition was only about visuals.
There is no denying of the fact that TFA, due to the the advanced time and new technical achievement and the sacrifice of a shit ton of CGI, looks way better.
But if we would search for originality and an "interesting" story ROTS would win because Lucas at least tried to do something original with the license at hand.
Acting wasn't that good in both films and each had its really cheesy moments
>Rey doesn't decide to leave and pursue Luke; she escapes Jakku and then tries to return.
It's called Refusal of the Call. It's the moment in the Hero's Journey where the Hero is called to adventure, but would rather stay at home in comfort. But the Call is always more powerful, and drags him (or her) in anyway.
Luke had it too: he knew his uncle depended upon him, and so he was unwilling to go rescue Leia. It was only after his aunt and uncle were found dead that he decided there wasn't anything left to keep him there.
Rey didn't have ties so weak, she still felt obligated to remain. Her ties weren't a person, but the promise or expectation of a person. It was only after her ordeal, after discovering who she was, that she decided it was better to seek out Luke and better train herself in the Force.
>implying Queen Senator Hershlag is my Star Waifu
would you guys have liked it better if rey and darth emo were removed , the protagonist was finn the antagonist was captain phasma, and the film more organically explored finn questioning his role as a stormtrooper before leaving the empire remnant?
I realise that a film can't stray to far into visualizing character intentions for fear of ruining the quality of a film, but that doesn't change the fact that some features of character motivations require some establishment. Whilst TFA utilized classic tropes and story tools like the Refusal of the Call, there was still no reason for her to train in the force or enter the fight. There needed to be something more crystal than "having nothing better to do" as motivation.
what if i genuinely enjoyed the new characters and had fun watching it? i know 'fun' is a meme now and you're not allowed to say that on /tv/, but honestly it's important to me.
i have complaints about the movie as well (especially trying too hard to be like ANH with Starkiller base), but for the most part i liked it.
plus i've literally not seen a single person said they liked the film because it was racially diverse and had good cgi.
RotS, and the prequels, are good concepts executed poorly, whereas TFA is a boring concept done reasonably well.
so while I give a lot of points to RotS for its concept, it was still a bad film
Telling a story that is more or less a Frankenstein construct of its preceding movies isn't worth of any praise either.
You see the dilemma don't you, anon?
Why do people act like the prequels are original somehow? They borrow heavily from the original trilogy too -- sometimes shot for shot.
At least when The Force Awakens does it, it's actually a quality movie.
RotS is infinitely better than TFA, it has plenty of problems but it raises lots of important issues such as the use of false flags to control & manipulate the population.
TFA is just an average action film that does nothing original.
>it's actually a quality movie
> They borrow heavily from the original trilogy too -- sometimes shot for shot.
The reason that the prequels borrow from the originals is that they are prequels. The point is to tell the backstory of the original characters. It makes sense that Anakin, Obi Wan, and Padme are the main characters of the prequels because they are the most important characters to the backstory of the original trilogy. What they do (Anakin marrying Padme, Anakin being trained by Owi Wan, etc) are necessarily borrowed from the originals. What is the sequels in universe excuse for borrowing the exact same characters and concepts as the originals? There is none.
oh anon.. every story you encounter is more or less recycled from something else. everything you think is original is actually inspired by something else you're simply unaware of. even /tv/'s post-ironically beloved prequels borrow heavily from the OT (and do it poorly).
there is no dilemma. both the prequels and this new trilogy carry the weight of a cultural phenomenon on their shoulders. but the prequels leaned too heavily on spectacle and nothing else. and while TFA can be nitpicked to death, the characters and settings in TFA are clearly resonating with audiences a lot more than the prequels ever did, and nothing you or this strawpoll say will change that.
also about half that image is wrong. might want to get a new one.
The Prequel Trilogy is more creative, has better worldbuilding and in many ways better space opera than The Force Unleashed, They also have far more memorable scenes (Darth Maul vs Obi and Qui, Podracing, Jango Fett decapitated, Sheev etc)
Too bad the Prequels have probably some of the worst effects, writing, pacing and acting in major blockbuster history and are basically unwatchable without cringing all the way through. There was a good movie that could have been made with the prequels, too bad Lucas wasn't just producer.
TFA on the other hand is bland, derivative, unmemorable nothing shit out of some corporate office, but is very well made from a production standpoint and nothing is really offensive apart from how it's an unmemorable generic modern blockbuster movie.
I personally would rather watch TFA than any of the prequels, at the same time I would rather watch some of the scenes of the prequels on youtube than watch TFA.
Although they attack the new 'Death Star' in the end, it is not the impetus for the story - that is the search for Luke, who himself has decided to absolve himself of responsibility (against his character) and remove himself from society.
Even Han has lapsed back to crime after failing as a dad - something that dishonours his previous arc that saw him go from scoundrel to hero by joining the team. In fact, it says more about him that he hasn't looked for his dear friend in decades. Everyone is disengaged, and there is no sense that forming a societal bond will help them. The filmmakers eschew the idea of a common good in favour of an outward message of empowerment. In fairness, we do get a heroic 'change of heart' from Finn, who decides to rescue Rey - only she doesn't need rescuing, and the dramatic gesture is mostly pretty useless - once again confirming to the audience that the bond of friendship is largely irrelevant. Finn and Rey do seem to like each other, and even hug at one point, but they seem much more like acquaintances of the Facebook generation than real comrades who share values.
>What is the sequels in universe excuse for borrowing the exact same characters and concepts as the originals? There is none.
The fact that Star Wars was always about the characters, so of course the sequels will focus on what happened to those character in the originals.
In fact, very few sequels change the focus of who the main characters are, so I don't get your point.
hella f*ckin' red herring
my point was that the characters in TFA are easier to relate to because they act and talk like real people. it's only natural that audiences would resonate with characters that feel real.
what was memorable about Qui-gon Jinn or Queen Amidala? how about Mace Windu? even the star of the show Anakin just spends most of the time on-screen brooding and whining, only to be easily duped by the worst con ever. his character is perpetually mocked.
>half that image is wrong
This still implies that half it is true.
Also, I'm aware of literally everything being unoriginal when you trace down the inspirational sources for its creator.
Furthermore things like the Monomyth make everything less original than it already is
To clarify there is no excuse for the sequels to introduce new characters as carbon copies of characters that were previously killed off like having Kylo Ren be the new vader, Snoke be the new emperor, and Hux be the new Tarkin. That is shit writing. As for the sequels reusing the same characters if it was decently written they would follow the arcs of the previous trilogy rather then cancelling them out. E.g having Han Solo be a smuggler again, having Han and Leia break up, having Luke not do anything and be a hermit, etc.
Every aspect of filmmaking is just better done in TFA than in ROTS. The acting is better, the cinematography is superior, the set design is more interesting, its ability to tell story through images (the purpose of a visual medium) exceeds everything in the prequels, every aspect of the mise-en-scene is just of a higher quality. It's fair to disparage its lack of originality, but to sit here and say that you prefer a 20 minute lightsaber fight to shots like pic related just proves that the memes have consumed you
>the cinematography is superior
>its ability to tell story through images (the purpose of a visual medium) exceeds everything in the prequels
>talk like real people
>"I didn't know there is so much green in the universe"
There is no arguing that the acting was better in TFA than it was in every movie of the prequels but this doesn't make it less of a copy of Star Wars IV with spliced in elements from VII
>i go to star wars movies for the technical displays of cinematic prowess
then what is the merit of using originality as a marker for the quality of the film? unless we're going to accuse TFA of being a ripoff of ANH which i suppose one could make an argument for - but there are just as many things different as there are similarities
What a fucking joke. Two people looking out of a window says absolutely zip regarding their situation or the story. That scene is nothing compared to Rey staring at the old woman doing exactly what she's doing and realizing that that's her future if she doesn't get off Jakku. That's visual storytelling done right.
>Two people looking out of a window says absolutely zip regarding their situation or the story
One of the signs of autism is the inability to pick up non-verbal cues from other people.
>>the cinematography is superior
Wow, digital cinematography, how fucking impressive. Literally all you have to do is compose the image, everything else is done in computers. Compare that to TFA, where positioning, lighting, lenses, film type, etc. all play a role.
TFA is losing even during the time period where the hype blinds the more impressionable folks to all the flaws, that really says a lot. In a few years all the TFA fans will almost certainly hate it just like how they liked TPM at first then only started hating it months later when it became cool to do that. Maybe RLM will even make a video to let them know what their new opinion should be.
I really liked watching TFA and I consider it to be a good movie.
The problem I'm having is:
Firstly the possible accusation of TFA being a ripoff of ANH.
Secondly the fanbase that's just sitting there circlejerking about how great the movie is and that it's a masterpiece of our time (which doesn't degrade the actual quality of the movie but still is something that takes away some of its qualities).
I think deep in my heart I know that TFA is better, but I still like to shitpost. Quality wise it is superior in arguably every possible aspect, we don't need to argue about that, I guess
>over my head
>"tfa is deeper than you think you guiz"
>TFA is losing even during the time period where the hype blinds the more impressionable folks to all the flaws,
It's actually the opposite. This is an Empire Strikes Back situation, where most people left the theater hating it, but it grew on them over time. Back when Empire came out fan were actually fucking pissed.
i love how prequel defenders can only point to this one scene in the ENTIRE trilogy because it's the only 2 minutes where the characters finally shut their mouths and it seems like something deeper is happening. it's as if Lucas briefly remembered he used to care about the art of filmmaking and made a hamfisted attempt at capturing it again.
this shot is on-screen for just a few seconds in TFA and it speaks volumes.
>"New Star Wars? Pft, even the prequels are better! In fact, they weren't bad at all!"
You guys are the biggest contrarian faggots on the internet.
>Secondly the fanbase that's just sitting there circlejerking about how great the movie is and that it's a masterpiece of our time
This was the case in the first week after coming out, the shine has already faded away
Even /r/movies hates TFA and it's the biggest disney/marvel/blockbuster circlejerk board on the internet.
I like how a couple trolls started this forced meme about how the prequels are better and now there are people who have jumped on the bandwagon as if it's an actual opinion a functional adult could have.
Literally the worst subforum on the internet.
> what was memorable about Qui-gon Jinn or Queen Amidala? how about Mace Windu?
The main characters of the prequels are Anakin, Padme, and Obi Wan. The other characters are side characters.
> even the star of the show Anakin just spends most of the time on-screen brooding and whining, only to be easily duped by the worst con ever.
He whined a lot before he married Padme because you know he was an angsty, young boy. He doesn't whine when his relationship is going well with Padme. Is their wedding scene not better then anything in TFA?
>hurr durr da prequels were shit PlebRedditCuckia told me so! downboated everyone in this thread if you disagree you're contrarian!
but before let me explain why you are sub human and will always be one
That's a completely legitimate opinion. Watch the chase scenes in films like Children of Men and the new Mission Impossible and compare them to Obi-Wan chasing Grievous in a Dinosaur.
regardless of your babby's first film class opinion i was speaking of the shot's symbolism
>The main characters of the prequels are Anakin, Padme, and Obi Wan. The other characters are side characters.
ok well Padme is Queen Amidala and when she became Padme she wasn't all that different. she went from monotone, boring queen to monotone, boring senator. Ewan McGregor tried his best to work with the material given to him. can't say the same for Hayden.
>Is their wedding scene not better then anything in TFA?
the problem with the wedding scene is their love story is unbelievable so their wedding has no emotional attachment. why are Anakin and Padme in love? why do they get married? is it just because they want to fuck eachother? Padme has no reason to love Anakin as a person. Anakin was nothing but a creep, a weirdo and a self-centered sociopath when he was around her. then they get married? she just ruined the career she claimed to care so much about. what a great love story.
3 is long as balls and still feels like they are rushing to tie everything together, meme-tastic, and has the worst dialog/acting.
Ep I basically shouldn't have been made. II and III should have been split up into three movies.
>Watch Episode I in theaters
>people cheer at the opening
>completely silent until the end
>Watch TFA in the theater 16 years later
>people cheer at the opening
>they laugh at Poe Dameron's joke
>they laugh at all of Finn's jokes
>they cheer the falcon reveal
>they laugh at BB-8's thumbs up
>they cheer and laugh at C3PO's reveal
>they cheer when Rey gets the lightsaber at the end
>everyone leaves the theater excited and energetic
People comparing TPM reaction to the TFA reaction are too young to have been around for both. I'm not saying that TFA is a better movie because of this, i'm just saying that the people who argue "well people loved TPM back in the day too" are too young to be making that argument.
Episode I had attempts at comedy that failed miserably. My point is that The Force Awakens is a much better received movie, both critically and by audiences. This doesn't automatically make it good, but the argument you often read here about TPM also being loved initially just isn't true.
>I never hated you, you always hated me
> ok well Padme is Queen Amidala and when she became Padme she wasn't all that different. she went from monotone, boring queen to monotone, boring senator. Ewan McGregor tried his best to work with the material given to him. can't say the same for Hayden.
She was a queen and then a senator. She married Anakin and got pregnant with his children. She is an interesting character. I don't think she is just a boring senator.
> the problem with the wedding scene is their love story is unbelievable so their wedding has no emotional attachment.
They are both hot young adults I don't see what is so unbelievable.
> why are Anakin and Padme in love? why do they get married?
Anakin and Padme are both servants of the republic. Anakin is a jedi and she is a senator. They both meet again when Anakin is sent to protect her. Padme isn't just attracted to Anakin she feels safe around him. Relationships have been built on a lot less.
Apologize, /tv/. Look into his eyes and say that you were wrong.
I know in internet circles its fun to deify the original trilogy, but the notion that The Empire Strikes Back is some sort of masterpiece is a modern one, and one that started the horrible trend of "dark" being a substitute for fun. It's not a bad movie by any means, but it doesn't capture the energy of the original Star Wars, or the energy that The Force Awakens imitates and borrows from the original Star Wars.
ROTH for lore alone.
TFA is just a remake, adding almost nothing to the story. It has 30 seconds of meaning with Han Solo dying and the force dream. Episode 8 will be the true character and story test of this trilogy.
Shit Han didn't even teach MaRey Sue anything. He wanted to give her the job and se fucking said no. Obi Wan's loss to Luke in IV was far far far more meaningful.
Han's loss means the most to the fans, rather than the characters and that's why it doesn't work.
>Lucas will die in your lifetime
>the argument you often read here about TPM also being loved initially just isn't true
Also read old imdb reviews of TPM
It's got some bad reviews, but overall reaction is quite positive.
One of the things I dislike about TFA is how it they basically wiped out the entire EU, while the prequels worked in many ways quite closely with established EU lore.
While lots of the EU is stupid shit, the "core EU" stuff is what has actually basically defined Star Wars as what it is, without the EU we wouldn't get a scene of Anakin being burnt like a kebab in Lava, without EU we wouldn't get much of the development of the Sith or basically much of the universe itself since the movies don't actually do that much worldbuilding themselves.
I get they needed to clear a lot of the EU to make their movies (TFA is in direct conflict with the incredibly popular Thrawn series) but lots of the EU world building was fantastic and things like KotoR are up there with the animated series in popularity which is strange since KotoR has been deemed non-canon despite not impacting on Disneyverse in any way.
Yoda was amazing, but that's the only part of the movie that stood out to me. I know the Vader reveal is a big twist that people loved (i'm too young to have seen the film in theaters so it couldn't possibly impact me in that way), but I hate it for starting the coincidental bullshit of everyone being related. It makes the universe small, and turns the force into some deterministic thing relating to genes. I also dislike how they officially turn Obi-Wan into a ghost, rather than leaving his voice in A New Hope open for interpretation.
I was the first person on this entire fucking planet to say Ep3 was better than Ep7.
I made posts about it and the none of thr sheep that saw it the first day would back me up.
Nice to know people are finally coming to their fucking senses.
>She is an interesting character.
what is interesting about her? what interesting things does she do? i don't recall her accomplishing anything of note unless you count following Anakin around and getting knocked up.
>They are both hot young adults I don't see what is so unbelievable.
you obviously have never been in a relationship before. just because two people want to fuck doesn't mean they immediately want to get married and have kids. Padme was a senator, she clearly cared about her work in the senate. i could understand her wanting to have a fuckbuddy to relieve some stress from her job, but get married and have a kid? she turned into a fucking homemaker the second she realized she was pregnant with a guy who she barely knows except for the fact that he has a penchant for genocide and fascism.
>Anakin and Padme are both servants of the republic. Anakin is a jedi and she is a senator. They both meet again when Anakin is sent to protect her. Padme isn't just attracted to Anakin she feels safe around him. Relationships have been built on a lot less.
but Anakin openly admits to Padme he actively disagrees with her politics and supports Palpatine's dictatorship and the consequential demise of the senate, on which Padme has based her career.
while it is true that Anakin is tasked with protecting Padme, she doesn't seem all that happy about it. on two occasions Padme expresses being uncomfortable with Anakin's behavior on Coruscant. i would hardly say she feels safe around him. she never asked for him to be around, he was simply obligated to be there and she had no choice but to accept it.
when they go to Naboo suddenly she does a 180 and is constantly cockteasing Anakin. this was just inconsistent with her character and a byproduct of bad and lazy writing. there is no reason for her to suddenly love him.
I guess I'll never really understand why people put TFA above any OT film. Yeah they had flaws, but this felt like a marvel version of Star Wars. It just doesn't feel like some grand part of a large story, but some flick to lead into other flicks. It's entertaining, but it has no staying power and I seriously think people are just loving it on hype for Star Wars alone
This is why i'm talking about actual reactions rather than just stated ones. People did call TPM good initially, but my point is that the reaction in the cinema itself told a different story.
>but my point is that the reaction in the cinema itself told a different story.
Same with TFA.
When I saw it, people loved the first half hour, but by the end the mood was extremely deflated.
NOBODY was hyped walking out.
Reminder that KotoR and KotoR II are the best Star Wars stories and that Kreia is literally the best written character in the entire Star Wars universe.
I'll concede that most people like it, I'm not big on it though. Kylo Ren being related to Vader is pretty interesting, given how ancestor worship is important to Nazis, and The First Order are just space Nazis, but the character would still be interesting without that element. He could worship Vader without also being his grandson.
>But even loving the first half hour is more than the immediate deflation after the opening crawl.
I love this meme. The TFA crawl was way worse than the TPM crawl.
It was poorly worded, and went like 2x the speed of the other six crawls.
There was a show when i was a kid. There were people who would enter a challenge room with the objective of completing a challenge and getting a diamond and escaping the room in time.
If they failed, they got locked in the room and the other players could exchange one of their diamonds to free them if they wanted to.
Each diamond counted towards more time in the final chamber where the players would gather their crystals, and enter a room with money and gather as much as they could until the time ended.
Anyone know the name of this?
Being a Jedi is like being an NFL quarterback, a fighter polot, a star footballer and an astronaut all rolled into one. Plus he's super good looking.
Your post is invalid on that alone because
he could literally have any chick in the galaxy he wanted at any time if they were single.
I said after the opening crawl. But anyone who seriously believes that the wonderfully simple "Luke Skywalker has vanished." is worse than the stilted and awkward "While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events..." is someone I can't reconcile my views with.
KotOR is straight OT Star Wars storytelling. It plays it safe, keeps the light and dark side black and white, and delivers a satisfying but ultimately basic experience.
KotOR II: The Sith Lords is more EU tier. Basically, Star Wars written in a world that's not black an white and where EVERYONE you meet is an asshole. The narrative is layered and complex, as are the companions. The answers don't come easy, but when they come they feel earned, and the writing is solid across the board. You can also put all of your female companions in Slave Leia costumes and act like a dicklord. Your call. Shit's fucking tight either way.
I read in an interview with the first screenwriter of the movie that it was impossible to have both Luke and Han in the new movie without it overshadowing the new characters. Having Luke turn into Obi-Wan was probably just an easy way give Finn and Rey room.
I'm talking about the wording itself, not what it implies. And I see what you mean, but the decision to impose self-exile seems like something that comes from age and cynicism. It could be something that an old Luke does.
How'd it ruin his character? He could have realized that he's too old to defeat Snoke, so he hid in order to wait for a strong force user who is able to defeat him to find him. Makes perfect sense.
>what is interesting about her?
The main things are that she is a senator and that she marries Anakin.
>what interesting things does she do?
She is a servant of the republic. As a representative of the republic she went to Geonosis with Anakin to negotiate with the Confederacy to free Obi Wan. But she got captured and war broke out. Then she married Anakin and got pregnant with him. Then she told him of her pregnancy.
>she turned into a fucking homemaker the second she realized she was pregnant with a guy who she barely knows
She didn't just barely know Anakin by the time she got pregnant. There are years between ATOC and ROTS and in that time they got to know each other very well.
> but Anakin openly admits to Padme he actively disagrees with her politics and supports Palpatine's dictatorship and the consequential demise of the senate
They both agree about politics because they are agree about the need to protect the republic from the confederacy. They even were at Geonosis together. Anakin had a vague one off statement about someone wise ruling but that was never repeated. And no one ever said anything about abolishing of the senate, that didn't even happen until years after the empire was formed at which point Padme was long gone.
> i would hardly say she feels safe around him.
There is no evidence of this. She does feel safe around him.
>Greek. Literally "planet knowledge"
>mfw when the Deathstar was designed on a planet called Planet Knowledge.
literally the whole point of the force was that you could be old or small but still be powerful.
If anything, Luke close to death should be more likely to go on a suicidal confrontation, because he chooses not to abuse the force to keep himself alive.
>"I'm getting too old for this sort of thing" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
Age was a major part of both Yoda and Obi-Wan's decision to avoid confronting Vader directly, which is why they waited for Luke. Luke waiting for Rey seems like the sort of thing a Jedi would do.
Not at all. Luke is the character who went to save his friends at Bespin in ESB. The Luke of the OT is nothing like the Luke of the Disney sequels where he ran off the be a hermit.
Do you not think that age is a major factor in that change? Older people behave differently than when they were younger. The Obi-Wan in Episode II wouldn't do that, but an older Obi-Wan would. Same could be said of Luke. I mean, it's nearly 40 years later, we shouldn't expect characters to be the same.
I saw Return of the Jedi in theaters when I was very, very young. I don't remember it, but there are plenty of stories of people cheering when Vader saved Luke at the end.
Recording from 1977 of people cheering during Star Wars
I don't get you guys. The brave Obi-Wan who confronted Dooku and killed Maul choosing exile when he's older is somehow less believable than the similar Luke choosing to do the same for utilitarian reasons? Again, it wasn't fear, he's waiting for Rey to come so that he can train her.
>The brave Obi-Wan who confronted Dooku and killed Maul choosing exile when he's older is somehow less believable than the similar Luke choosing to do the same for utilitarian reasons?
Watch the original trilogy. Yoda and Obi Wan both try to convince Luke to stay and complete his training. They are both the cautious type and the type of person which would run off and be a hermit. But Luke is not that kind of jedi. He goes to Bespin to save his friends. The Luke of empire strikes back would never run off well and be a hermit well his friends and family are at risk.
Luke starts off reluctant in the opening of A New Hope, becomes rash in Empire (and pays the price for it), and is wiser and more in control in Jedi. There's an arc to his character. The notion that he remained the same in Jedi that he was in Empire isn't true, let alone over 30 years after Jedi. It would be absurd to have a 60 year old behave as impulsively as a 25 year old.
Luke has friends and family he cares about. In empire strikes back he goes to Bespin to save the people he cares about. There is no precedent in his character for him to run off and do nothing well his friends are in danger. You can't simply explain this away by saying time has passed.
Revenge of the Sith.
I didn't think Force Awakens was terrible, but I didn't find it to be better than the Original Trilogy. It just seemed like a blatant rehash and reboot of it. Revenge of the Sith just has more going for it. It actually seemed like a movie instead of a product made by a bunch of board members and a committee. I dig the scenes between Anakin and Obi-Wan, I love the opening space battle, I think Palpatine is one of if not the best characters in the entire saga. I know people like to rip the acting and scenes in the prequels, but I thought the opera scene and that little quiet moment where Anakin is looking out the Jedi Temple and Padme is looking out the apartment window before Anakin makes his deal with the devil is quite brilliant.
Here are some things where I think Revenge of the Sith tops Force Awakens,
>Sith has a better John William's soundtrack
>better, more intimidating Trooper designs
>creature/character/planet designs are all top tier and original
>more emotional (the Jedi being betrayed and Obi-Wan fighting Anakin > Han Solo getting stabbed)
I like that the climax in Sith is just Obi-Wan going to the lava planet to bring down Anakin and Yoda going to the Senate to bring down Sheev. It's not some macguffin bullshit like an even "BIGGER Death Star!!!". It's just a clash of ideals. Brother vs. brother, master vs. master. Then the resolution of what to do with Luke and Leia, starting the events that lead to the Original Trilogy.
By going to Bespin and refusing to listen to Yoda he fucks everything up. A character flaw leading to a negative outcome. By the end he chooses to die rather than to be captured by Vader. In Jedi he actually allows himself to be captured multiple times, because he's smarter and understands the value of waiting for the right moment. The Luke in TFA is similar to the Luke in Jedi, only older. He's much smarter and understands the value of waiting for Rey in order to train her. A Luke who doesn't do this and instead allows himself to be killed for some impulsive need to save a few rather than wait to save the many wouldn't just go against his heroic nature, it would be a devolution of his character.
>Jar Jar is basically a nigger with downs
>he was played by a 7-foot tall nigger with a Jar Jar hat on his head while filming so the other actors would have a reference
>imagine Being Liam Neeson and trying to keep a straight face as George berates the Jarnigger for not beign dopey enough
>also Watto was a Jew
>the Nemoidians were cranky old Chinese men
He just rejects the dark side.
His anger won him the fight.
rejecting Sheev=/= no anger
He's still wearing black robes in the final shot. And yes, he had time to change clothes. He chose not to.
Memes aside, ROTS is one of the best Star Wars films ever.
Kicking off with an opening space battle that utilises a roller coaster ride POV to spectacular effect, the film twists and turns us in it's stylishly comfortable grip, throwing us headlong into the already ensuring action. Meeting up with old friends Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker (the love and respect between accomplished master and seasoned Jedi clearly apparent in these early sequences) as they cut a destructive swathe across the screen, cursing and teasing each other in equal measure as they take apart ships, scenery and even mechanical staff wielding bio-droids (magna guards) is a joy to behold (and it's noteworthy here to mention how utterly at ease both Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen now appear to be in their respective guises)...but the fun ultimately cannot last forever...Controlling the pace like the master story teller and film editor Lucas is, it's a restrained twenty minutes before the Jedi once again encounter Christopher Lee's elegantly vicious Count Dooku, but Anakin is no longer the fool hardy padawan he once was and it's from this point on that the first 'real' inevitable step towards the dark side is taken. Forsaking the cartoon-like cuddly tones of 'Menace' and even the pressure-cooker foreboding of 'Clones', 'Sith' stakes it's claim in this newly explored darker territory with glee; this is not, and was never designed to be, an episode for kids.
As the story progresses and tragedy draws ever near, the film bludgeons Christensen's Anakin with heart rending blows at every turn. His learning of his secret wife Padme's pregnancy is cursed with sudden and traumatising visions of her death in childbirth, reawakening his feelings of regret and loss over the death of his mother (whom he is still convinced he could have saved) and in-turn, his feelings of resentment towards his 'family', the Jedi, who continue to praise his abilities yet refuse him the one thing he desires most in the world. With the enduring guidance and influence of the artificially benign Chancellor Palpatine (seemingly able to offer Anakin all the answers at a time when he is most in need), the young Jedi begins to doubt everything, even the fidelity of the very woman he is trying to save till finally, when the pitch of the movie appears to have reached it's dramatic peak, Anakin makes a choice that will ultimately lead him down an irrevocable path that will change the face of the galaxy...and set the stage for cinematic history.
The only way I can see Luke running off is because of the godawful massacre of all of his students by one of his own.
He might have lost confidence in himself as a teacher and worried about doing more harm than good.
Not that I'm defending TFA imind you.
`Revenge of the Sith' boasts not only some of the most audacious set pieces yet attempted in a blockbuster (Kenobi and Grievous' wheel bike/dragon mount chase, the continuation of The Clone Wars, Yoda and Sidious' epic senate duel, where politics and morality clash physically for the very first time) but some of the most intense and emotionally affecting. In essence; `Sith' is an action movie with heart. For sentimentality and effective storytelling using the minimum of trickery or techniques, look no further than the wonderfully sombre and underplayed moment of telepathic understanding that Anakin and Padme share across a Coruscant afternoon sun shrouded cityscape, or that Padme's final words are of concern for the man who has, in essence, murdered her emotionally and physically, or the look and tone of sadness Yoda exhibits as he is forced to flee his encounter with Sidious, or more importantly, the haunting shades of music and imagery that follows the execution of Order 66...
His anger helps him defeat Vader, but he ultimately regrets it when he looks at his robotic hand and realizes that that anger is turning him into Vader. He then throws down his weapon and refuses to finish the fight. That's the entire point of that scene.
...but for both emotion and hyper charged dramatic electricity, the climatic Mustafar duel between Vader and Kenobi is unsurpassed. This is a duel that people have been waiting to see since 1977 and it does not disappoint. For the battle of heroes where 'brothers' clash with clear intentions that only one will survive, Lucas has married all tools at his disposal (a tragic yet epic sweeping score, a blink-and-you'll-miss-ten-moves lightsaber choreography, acting intensity that never fails to convince, CGI that threatens at every turn; VERY real danger, etc..) to create a sequence that both excites and moves in equal measure and despite the fact that we all know how the battle ends, it makes it no easier to watch the horrific events unfold.
>Revenge of the Sith' boasts not only some of the most audacious set pieces yet attempted in a blockbuster (Kenobi and Grievous' wheel bike/dragon mount chase,
Literally worse than any scene in the phantom menace
In stark contrast to maulings regarding the acting in the other two prequels, the performances in `Sith' are first rate. Ewan McGregor predictably shines in a role it seems he was destined to play (particularly in the final minutes of the Mustafar confrontation) and flickers of Alec Guinness punctuate throughout, never threatening to turn his performance into mere mimicry. Natalie Portman, (however little she was required to do), breaks our hearts as the man she loves literally rots from the inside before her very eyes. Ian McDiarmid turns in an oscar worthy performance, hamming it up where necessary to break stride suddenly with a glare and a disembowelling tone when the mood takes him, but above all (and despite protests to the contrary), it is Hayden Christensen for whom the highest regard must be reserved. His performance permeates one of utter believability, shifting remarkably from eager Jedi knight to chilling Sith apprentice so smoothly that it's startling to witness. The ferocity and utter neutrality that Christensen exhibits as the young Darth Vader is truly impressive if not downright mesmerising, yet the best is saved for last in the final confrontation that husband and wife share prior to the fiery duel into the very bowels of hell. Hayden's demeanour of a man who believes above all else that he has done the right thing yet utterly blind to the fact he has caused more damage than good is staggering, his tone (in a wonderful symmetry with 'Menace`) echoing the youthful idealistic young boy he was once, reminding us yet again how far the soul has fallen. It's a moment (like so many others) that entrenches itself so deeply into the mind that you will be hard pressed to rid yourself of certain emotions long after `Sith's' credits have rolled.
Expectedly, `Revenge of the Sith' will delight as many as it will disappoint, but as far as taking us on a new and unexpected journey a long time ago through a galaxy far away in spectacular fashion (never allowing indulgence or flights of mere fancy to intrude upon the story), `Sith' is a worthy contender for the greatest Star Wars film of all time.
In closing, I have already watched `Sith' more times than I have seen the original trilogy and the film leaves me with a different impression every time. The birth of Darth Vader is something everyone has been dreaming about since the release of the classic `A New Hope,' thank god George Lucas has managed to create a movie that will live on just as long.
Well, I guess I miscounted how many segments I had. Anyway, if anyone still believes TPM can unironically get near ROTS there're a fucking autism-loaded moron.
> The Luke in TFA is similar to the Luke in Jedi, only older.
Not at all. Luke's character motivations in return of the jedi are to save his friends and family exactly as they were in empire strikes back. He goes to save Han Solo because he is his friend. He doesn't go to Vader to kill him but rather to save him because he cares about him since he is is his father. The Luke of TFA is nothing like the Luke of the original trilogy.
> A Luke who doesn't do this and instead allows himself to be killed for some impulsive need to save a few rather than wait to save the many wouldn't just go against his heroic nature, it would be a devolution of his character.
You don't understand his character, like at all. He is absolutely the type of person who will go to save a few of the people he cares about like his friends and family even at risk to himself. This is why he leaves Bespin in ESB and why he goes to save his father in ROTJ. The heroic nature of his character is defined by his relationship to his friends and family this is completely abandoned in TFA.
What's wrong with what they posted? Revenge of the Sith wasn't hated on when it first came out and it got a great, positive, critical response. I'd bet anything that most of the people that hate Sith on here and the internet loved it at one point. There's a lot to like about ROTS. It's not my favorite, but the good outweighs the bad.
It's got some crappy, awkward moments in it, but so do all the Star Wars movies. As far as this thread goes, Force Awakens DEFINITELY does.
>Luke's character motivations in return of the jedi are to save his friends and family
Which is his exact motivation in TFA. The only difference is that the methods of achieving that are different. He understands that attempting to defeat Snoke and Kylo Ren on his own is a fool's errand. The only thing he'll achieve is dying, and Rey would be left on her own unable to receive any sort of training.
>You don't understand his character, like at all.
As opposed to you, who's unable to understand the very basic concept of a charter arc? The Luke in Jedi who leaves in order to "save" Vader isn't the Luke in Empire who leaves in order to presumably defeat him. The Luke in Empire who refuses to listen to Yoda isn't the same Luke in Jedi that follows the advice of the dying Yoda. The notion that he's rash in Empire and more in-control in Jedi is articulated in the opening scene at Jabba's Palace in particular.
It was meme on YTMND before I even saw the movie. I remember actually feeling bad when people laughed because 14 year old me thought that the movie wasn't that bad up to that point.
> Which is his exact motivation in TFA.
No its not. He does nothing well Han Solo dies or well his own sister is in danger of being killed in moments by the Starkiller Base. That is him abandoning his friends and family which is something he would NEVER have done in the original trilogy.
> He understands that attempting to defeat Snoke and Kylo Ren on his own is a fool's errand.
This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He would NOT be alone at all. He would have the entire New Republic and the resistance at his side. He would have Leia is even mentioned to be just as force capable as him in ROTJ. The Luke in ROTJ would have trained her afterwards but again this Luke is not based upon the original trilogy.
> As opposed to you, who's unable to understand the very basic concept of a charter arc?
Abandoning Luke's entire characterization and shoving him into the role of a hermit like Obi Wan is NOT a character arc.
> The Luke in Jedi who leaves in order to "save" Vader isn't the Luke in Empire who leaves in order to presumably defeat him.
Only because he learned Vader was his father. His knowledge changed but his motivations did not.
> The Luke in Empire who refuses to listen to Yoda isn't the same Luke in Jedi that follows the advice of the dying Yoda.
His motivations are the same even if he is more trained. His motivations are still to protect his friends and family.
> The notion that he's rash in Empire and more in-control in Jedi is articulated in the opening scene at Jabba's Palace in particular.
Not at all. The plan at Jabba's palace didn't work and he got himself captured. Are we watching the same movies?
What does this shot tell you about the characters or the story? Nothing. It just gives some background: there was a battle in this planet.
JJ just put this shot here because he thought it looked cool. Also, probably Disney told him to put it, as there's a new canon novel that tells a story about why that star destroyer is there.
I'm not saying the shot is bad. The only scenes I actually enjoyed about the film were the ones in Jakku. But it's not a masterpiece shot, nor better than any random shot in the prequels just because it has instagram filters.
Btw, about that novel: it's a 'young adult novel' telling the story about a male rebel and a female imperial, both in love since childhood, that face each other in the battle of Jakku. The imperial one actually commands this star destroyer and decides to crash it in the surface when the rebel boards the ship or something like that. Bravo Disney.
I fucking hate getting into these point-by-point internet arguments, All they do is eat hours out of my day and accomplish nothing. I can talk about how much the character changed and how age compounds that change even more. I can talk about how there are different forms of heroism, and that letting your friends die in order to save the galaxy is actually noble, but your rebuttal will amount to little more than "nuh uh." I'll waste my time to avoid you saying that I dodged your points, but I fucking hate this.
>He does nothing well Han Solo dies or well his own sister is in danger of being killed in moments by the Starkiller Base.
If he's incapable of defeating Kylo and Snoke, what's the point? Rash self-sacrifice for no end is something a 25 year old Jedi would do, not something a 65 year old man with a mission would do.
> He would NOT be alone at all. He would have the entire New Republic and the resistance at his side.
Resistance + New Republic + Leia wasn't enough up to that point. Why would adding an elderly Luke suddenly help them win the day?
>Abandoning Luke's entire characterization and shoving him into the role of a hermit like Obi Wan is NOT a character arc.
40 years. 40 years. 40 years.
>Only because he learned Vader was his father. His knowledge changed but his motivations did not.
If Luke were someone whose entire motivation to save someone was what that person meant to him personally, he'd be a selfish prick, not a hero. He tries to save Vader because he felt the good in him, and he was on a mission to bring balance to the force.
>His motivations are still to protect his friends and family.
Not in fucking Jedi. The entire point is that he HAS to confront Vader in order to bring balance to the force. He's a man on a mission, and that mission is more important than Han and Leia being stuck on the forest moon of Endor (whom he leaves).
Actually it articulates the passage of time since the OT, establishes the environment of Jakku, and tells you what Rey does for a living. That shot says a lot. Far from "cool and random."
>>doesn't address the getting captured at Jabba's point
Doesn't he say something along the lines of "don't worry" and winks at Han when he's being taken?
It's literally all opinions. There's no "fact" regarding your subjective view of Luke's character.
You can talk about different kinds of heroism if you want to the point is those types of heroism do not apply to Luke. Luke is meant to be a certain type of character, and that should remain consistent with the original trilogy. I keep pointing this out and you keep saying "nuh uh" and "40 years" you dismiss the complete change of his character based upon age alone.
You also seem to dismiss this by claiming that an elderly Luke wouldn't be able help but that doesn't follow from what we know. Older jedi are still shown to be powerful despite Obi Wan's one statement about getting old. All indications are Luke even in his age would be a great asset if he was still around rather then a hermit.
I won't dwell on the notion that he supposedly isn't enough to defeat Kylo when he was already beaten by Rey who picked up a lightsaber for the first time. The point I keep coming back to is that his character should've have been someone who would not abandon his friends and family under any circumstances. He faced considerable odds before and he didn't run.
Your attempt to claim that Luke is a selfish prick falls on its face because part of his characterization is that he is able to risk himself for those close to him. Risking himself for others is not what the word selfish means. You also seem to be changing the topic to bringing the balance to the force which isn't even mentioned ONCE in ROTJ. But it is mentioned that Luke went to save his father. His motivation was to save his father. He wanted to protect his friends and family like in empire strikes back. It would have been nice to see that him again, its too bad.
The poll doesn't mean anything. Once people defending TFA start posting TFA starts to receive more votes. People just vote for whatever people around them are telling them to vote for. Sith was like at 58% before Jeff Mangum came to the thread.
>articulates the passage of time since the OT
No. It just says imperials and rebels battled there. It doesn't say what happened to the imperials and the rebels in the end. Just like the entire movie, remember that JJ isn't able to explain at all (or just doesn't care) why is there a Resistance, why the First Order, why the New Republic doesn't fight, and a lot of other whys that were poorly explained in the end in the novelization or other places we got to know about because of the internet.
Any person that went to the cinema to see the movie didn't get any answers to any of these whys. That doesn't say any good about the director. No, he doesn't >speak volumes with his shots, nor with his dialogues.
>establishes the environment of Jakku
Just like any other Jakku shot.
>tells you what Rey does for a living
No, it doesn't. Previous shots did, where she was actually scavenging.
Here you just see her driving.
Again, I'm not saying the shot is bad. But please stop making things to be way more than what they are. This is just a cool shot. It doesn't tell anything of relevance.
u dumb man
Do you really believe people read the thread before voting?
Do you really believe people vote based on what other anons posted?
Do you really believe outside of /tv/ everybody prefers TFA over RotS?
I mean, of all the sites I've visited and all the people I've talked with, /tv/ is where I've seen the most TFA lovers.
>No. It just says imperials and rebels battled there. It doesn't say what happened to the imperials and the rebels in the end.
Seeing junked versions of older ships after we already saw their newer counterparts in the opening scene actually perfectly articulates the passage of time. A dilapidated Star destroyer is more than just the remnants of a battle.
>remember that JJ isn't able to explain at all (or just doesn't care) why is there a Resistance, why the First Order, why the New Republic doesn't fight,
He doesn't say it through exposition, which seems to be the only storytelling you're able to understand given your analysis of that shot.
>Just like any other Jakku shot.
Jakku is a fucking junkyard. How does a shot of sand say that better than a shot of a junked ship?
>No, it doesn't. Previous shots did, where she was actually scavenging.
It's part of the same scene. That shot of the Star Destroyer is the completion of that sequence of shots of her scavenging. In fact, it becomes more clear what she's doing once you see that shot.
I'll break this down point by point.
>It's been 40 years since Return of the Jedi.
>Yoda in Empire is different than the Yoda we saw in Episode III
>Obi-Wan in Star Wars is different from the Obi-Wan we saw in Episode II
>the notion that Luke wouldn't change in that time and behave exactly like he did when he was 27 is fucking stupid
>A New Hope and Empire establish previously powerful Jedi Yoda and Obi-Wan as weaker in their old age
>Luke knows who Rey is and understands that she needs training in order to defeat Snoke
>Luke has a plan for how to defeat him, hence him leaving the map behind
>Luke, being wiser, understands how much more heroic saving the galaxy is than saving Han Solo