Can someone explain what the fuss is about from the Dark Knight Rises Plane scene to a plebeian who has no taste in movies? Why has it become such a joke on both k and tv?
It's an extremely well written scene with so many layers of depth. 2 years on and we've only really scratched the surface.
The exchange between CIA and Bane is one of cinema's high points.
This. Even the "For you" scene is ripe with layers of meanings.
Bane said he was a Big Guy compared to CIA because CIA was part of...well...the CIA and only a smal gear in that organisation while Bane was THE League of Shadows.
So symbolic. So metaphoric. So fucking POETIC!
>2 years on and we've only really scratched the surface.
I have analysed the opening scene of TDKR for over 10,000 hours, every nuance of the scene is well documented in my mind and I know, full well, the true meaning of this masterwork of cinema. I will outline it concisely and briefly for you now:
>Bane: "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask."
By this Bane means that he was a nobody until he took on the persona of Bane, the reputation that surrounds him is what has made him infamous. The "mask" is not the respiratory device that pumps him full of painkillers, the mask is his image as a dangerous individual known the world over for his exploits. From this we can draw parallels with Bruce Wayne and Batman, the mask is an important theme throughout.
>CIA: If I pull that off will you die?
If I remove the mask, if I expose you as nothing more than a man will it destroy the essence of what you are?
>Bane: "It would be extremely painful."
It would be a traumatic experience to abandon what I am, an existential crisis of sorts that would be difficult to recover from.
>CIA: You're a big guy.
You're an important person, your reputation is large and your deeds are noteworthy.
>Bane: For you.
For you I am an important person, you are an agent of the CIA who has been actively hunting me. Our importance to somebody, our stature, our largeness is defined by the effect we have on them. To the average person Bane is not a "big guy", but to this agent he is large indeed.
Serious post warning: I don't know about /k/, but for me it's the following:
>the entire plane crash was unnecessary and Bane didn't need to do it
>you're a big guy
>thinking nobody would be curious about bullet holes
>thinking nobody would be curious about wings being miles from fuselage
>thinking anybody would be fueled by a 1/2 cup of blood
Its a poorly thought-out scene and I think it's interesting Nolan expected the audience to not scrutinize it
That's it, I'm fucking done.
I can't be on this website anymore.
my mind is being fucking blown right now
this actually makes a lot of sense
is this pasta
fuck my head
>you are an agent of the CIA
>not you are CIA
Honestly, that was basic level analysis.
All references to "masks" (and specifically, Bane's "mask", as well as CIA's fascination with it) are a subtle nod to the illusory nature of the self. Bane knows that our concept of the self - the "mask" we wear in day to day life - is illusory, thus how easily he and his henchmen are able to finally let go when the illusion is stripped away, and when the occasion calls for it ("They expect one of us in the wreckage, brother!"). The world in this case is both literally and metaphorically a stage; CIA becomes obsessed with Bane's reason for wearing the mask, but never stops to reflect on the nature of the mask itself and what it stands for. In a way, we as ego-centric beings are "acting" out on a day-to-day basis ("Nobody cared who I was until I put on the mask"). Bane's ultimate lesson for CIA is to stop fighting, accept fate, embrace the nature of his existence, and slip peacefully into death.
This is why it becomes obvious that Nolan has transcended the superhero / comic genre and created something truly profound. Cape films, in the tradition of Nolan, turn standard comic tropes on their head in order to outline a horrific existential angst. It is more of a signifier of the horror of our existence than it is about stopping the robber or beating up the bad guys (or in this case, Big Guys).
Like CIA himself, you were all chasing the wrong demon (e.g. outlandish, unrealistic theories). The terror and the darkness isn’t external, it’s internal.
The entire plane scene is just a re-enactment of the anxieties CIA has, kinda like Evangelion. In it, Bane and his men represent CIA's father, who CIA sees himself competing against.
To begin with CIA identifies himself as CIA to Dr. Pavel despite having an actual name, indicative of his insecurity and need to tout the agency he works for in order to increase his credibility.
He lords his ownership of the plane, "his aicraft," over the men he has captured (despite the plane clearly being property of the CIA) and threatens to eject them to show that he is powerful or in charge, as it were. His failure to actually do so, however, shows us the actual CIA, a cowardly man who fails to act on his words.
His dainty little plane ascends, symbolizing CIA's slow climb. However, it is soon overshadowed by his father's plane, which is way farther up and much larger. There is also phallic imagery at play here, suggesting that his father may have been more of a man than CIA.
Meanwhile CIA starts having doubts as he realizes that Bane, representative of his father, is bigger than him. He tries to threaten Bane, but Bane just blithely dismisses his threat. Bane tells CIA that even this one success, catching him, was part of his plan, and thus not an achievement at all. After his father has had enough of CIA's insolence, he easily stomps him, crashing his plane with no survivors and showing him that he is not the one in charge in their relationship, while his own plane soars into the sky.
>The entire plane scene is just a re-enactment of the anxieties CIA has, kinda like Evangelion. In it, Bane and his men represent CIA's father, who CIA sees himself competing against.
This joke has officially gone too far.
>If I remove the mask, if I expose you as nothing more than a man will it destroy the essence of what you are?
I think the mask might refer to an illusory identity that Bane has created to give his life purpose. If you were to remove his identity, showing that he is the same as anyone else, it would be extremely emotionally painful.
Not without getting caught. Or at least investigated.
The movie passes it off as "well, CIA's plane crashed. Its too bad. Pavel was on it, too. Nothing suspicios, however. Might as well move on with our lives. I'm taking Bill Wilson's wife to dinner tonight"
The purpose of Bane is to get CIA to realize the futility of pursuing fame and power. When Bane says that nobody cared who he was until he put on the mask, he means that as a bad thing. He is asking CIA to take off his mask as a big guy and to accept a normal life, even if it would be extremely painful, as he acknowledges (though it wouldn't kill him, which seems to be CIA's main concern), rather than living under an illusion of being in charge. Hence when he says that he will crash the plane with no survivors, he means it in a figurative sense as well, as in "Your ambitions will not survive."
Ultimately, what kills CIA is his refusal to take off his mask, have nobody care about him and stop being in charge. Thus, a bigger guy with a mask ends up besting him.
When Wilson says "I'm CIA", he's not actually saying his name. It's a carefully encoded message designed to intimidate Dr Pavel and gain an upper hand in the interrogation. Stay with me here.
The letter "C" is the third letter of the alphabet, "I" the ninth and "A" the first. If we add these numbers together we get 13. Now, according to Jewish law, thirteen is the age at which a boy has his Bar Mitzvah and becomes a man. This means that Wilson was in fact saying "I'm thirteen years old", confirming that he too is a big guy and possibly a Zionist.
I disagree. I think Bane meant that it would be a traumatic experience for CIA, as he would witness the crisis from an outside perspective, thus being overwhelmed with emotion - resulting in a breakdown.
THE TRAIN-TO-AUSCHWITZ PLAN LISTS ME, MY MEN, DR MENGELE HERE, BUT ONLY ONE OF YOU
FIRST ONE TO TALK GETS TO STAY IN MY GAS CHAMBER
WHO PAID YOU TO SELL GERMANY TO THE ALLIES?
*Bang* HE DIDN'T SHOWER SO GOOD
TELL ME ABOUT ANNE
WHY DOES SHE WRITE THE DIARY
A LOT OF LOYALTY FOR A HIRED JEW
>Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him into a gas chamber
AT LEAST YOU CAN TALK
WHO ARE YOU
>It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our race
>No-one cared who I was until I put on the yellow star
If I send you to the camp, will you die?
>It would be extremely painful
You're a big guy
Was getting caught part of your plan?
No, they expect zyklon B in the wreckage brother
Have we started the fire?
Yes, the crematorium rises
On a more serious note, I think this scene is allegorical to the holocaust in a very radical fashion; Bane's plan to 'crash the plane' is similar to the jew's plan to "gas the chambers". When bane says "WITH NO SURVIVORS" he's implying that all the documents- the flight plan, the entire setup, will all list everyone on the plan as having died, but bane takes survivors out and escapes the plane, like the jew survivors of the holocaust escaped europe, but appeared dead on all the documentation.
Bane leaves a brother behind as evidence that at least someone died, otherwise it'd be too unbelievable that they find no-one, the same way some jews actually had to die to provide evidence of dead jews.
I think Nolan was being extremely bold with challenging Semite doctrine with this masterstroke of allegorical genius.
I don't think so.
It's all about symbolism for THE PEOPLE, not for the symbol himself.
We see Batman being taken down in the eyes of the people in TDK for example.
The mask is there for the people, that's why Bane says that no one care who he was before he put it on.
Bane dosn't care about the mask. WE do. That's why it would be painful to CIA, because he is one of the people.
This coincides with Nolan's original interpretation of the script.
However, Hardy recently claimed during filming he intoned it as "I am a big guy for you."
Which should be analyzed? The intended meaning or the displayed one?
>Which should be analyzed? The intended meaning or the displayed one?
Always analyse the actual rather than any intended meanings. If it was supposed to be different then it would have been reshot or edited differently - intentions can change.
Both. The double meaning is part of the Nolan genius. I just thought mentioning the intended meaning was important - hopefully I have enlightened some fortunate gentlesirs/madams in this wonderous thread.
When the person says "I'm CIA" I dont think he is referring to himself as "CIA", but implies that he is representing Americas "Central Intelligence Agency" or "CIA" on an operation.
This would make sense considering "Bane" or the "Mercanary" is a potential terrorist and a threat to national security
This is all speculation of-course, there are plenty of ideas and theories that make plenty more sense
That's how I feel. Hardy took it one way and his interpretation was at least implicitly approved by Nolan and the editors. So, if that's how they wanted the end product, that's what it should be.
>The intended meaning or the displayed one?
The dichotomy between the intoned meaning and the semantic meaning. It's truly a case where something can mean two things at the same time, not only did Bane become a big guy for CIA, but that it would be extremely painful.
Bane is a big guy for CIA since Bane is the head of a mercenary group- he's an influential guy, a big guy, while CIA is just a grunt in his respective organisation, while bane IS his organisation. Bane is a big guy for CIA, and it's this, that would be extremely painful for CIA. If CIA took off Bane's mask, he would be revealing the man that Bane had ceased to be; a shadow of the masked identity he had become. CIA would be forced to see nothing but a regular man, a regular man who had risen to power, become a legendary arsonist, and is persued by world organisations, it would be a mirror for CIA's own career. He would see his own career, as a nameless CIA agent, carrying out some minor task, and that would be the source of his pain- that bane's aspirations of greatness and influence (He's a big guy) had borne fruit while CIA's had not.
The official novelisation of TDKR states that Bane was, in effect, the bane of 'these parts'. But this is clearly just a microcosm of the world in general as Bane expands his influence to Gotham soon afterwards - Bane is, in fact, a bane to all of humanity.
His decision to get captured was to prove his own godlike perception of himself - if he could get captured by humanity's best and defeat them nonetheless, he truly was humanity's Bane.
Simply put, it was ego and pride. When Seeyi says to Bane 'you're a big guy' he's referring literally to Bane's self-perception as a God over men.