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Moorcock
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So, I got around to reading Moorcock finally and I was impressed by his cosmology.

Why have Warhammers screwed up the whole image of Chaos so much? Couldn't they just CnP it?

Are there any other setting with similar Chaos?

Is Aragorn an incarnation of Champion Eternal?
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>>45375496
>Why have Warhammers screwed up the whole image of Chaos so much?
You mean Chaos role in cosmology?
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>>45375706
all of it.
Moorcock's Chaos is like really CHAOS.
Warhammers' Chaos ends up an extradimensional mordor, nothing more, with gods being pesky petty superhumans (figuratively).
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>>45375726
Well yeah, I think their main problem was stagnation which didn't allow them to show Chaos vs. Chaos plot, also, I think they tryed to make it more close to Moorcock's Chaos when made Malal who hates not only Order, but Chaos Gods, like spirits of true Chaos from Elric series who hates even Chaos Lords because thought that they are too lawful for Chaos.
Bbut by the way, fiction always will be higher than games.
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>>45375805
but a setting is sorta literature, it can have depth! i mean, look at Planescape, it isn't that bad.

and it's not also that. daemons/chaos dukes/whatever from Moorcock are much more believable as incarnations of Chaos and as products of human belief/thoughts than fairly uniform daemons of Warhammers (and don't shove game limitations here, they are described in fluff as pretty uniform, even those that don't appear in the game)
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>>45375496
you know, I'd even accept AoS's Mortal Realms if them were more like Moorcock's Multiverse
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>>45375496
Law/Chaos was the inspiration for D&D's alignment system. Of course they added good, evil and neutral, but the influence is there.
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>>45375706
>>Gaynor the Damned
>>Gaynor

I never could take that name seriously. The character is awesome, just has a name that would never be used outside of cheap jokes today. That's one thing that didn't age well.
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>>45376667
>>raging homo
Where the fuck did you get that idea? Firstly Moorcock isn't homosexual. Secondly what would be wrong with that if he were?

All that aside, I've always thought that if by some weird series of events I got into doing porn I'd take the stage name Michael Morecock. Just for the lulz.
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>>45375496
>>45375726
>>45375805

Because Warhammer doesn't take inspiration from just one idea and infact melds many different ideas together because it was originally a ruleset designed for people to play in whatever setting they wanted.
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>>45375496
As many other works of literature, games etc it took inspiration from a source then turned it into something of its own.
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>>45376688
Kek for some reason i mixed him up with Clive barker
Don't usually pay attention to personal lives of writers
I think there was some sfx article about a biography about barker and l misremembered it as being moorcock
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>>45376712
This.

Chaos Gods in Warhammer have always been what amounts to petulent children fighting over toys.

it makes them much scarier really.
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>>45376794
No it doesn't. It makes them laughable cartoon villains with no appeal.

Now before you throw all the literature you have in picture or pdf format about how scary and edgy the big four are supposed to be, hear me out.

The chaos gods are hyped up as this unbeatable and supernatural entity of cosmic warp fart created from both the emotional release of all living beings as well as void powers. Creepy huh?

So why is it that chaos, time and time again gets pushed back and their great invasions and such drawn out to botter stalemates and infighting? I mean chaos is supposedly unbeatable yet they always manage to fuck up at the last minute every single time.

For a stagnant setting like the Warhammers, villains which constantly fail of their own accord aren't scary. They're pathetic
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>>45376712
>>45376794
Hello fanboys.Nurgle and Slaanesh images was total copy of Arioch images from Elric and Corum series.
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>>45376742
>Clive barker
Is a fucking awesome homo.
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>>45376891
That's poor writing and keeping the game in statis.

Even if you don't count the End Times, WHF has always been the slow victory of Chaos. They might lose the final battle, but they always cause irreparable harm. That is how they win the war.
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>>45376891
The Warhammer Fantasy setting would like to have a word with you.

Also, Moorcock didn't do anything that Lord Dunsany didn't do already with the Gods of Pegana.
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>>45376891
Because of two simple reasons you petulant autist.

1) it's a setting, you can't have a setting if it ends so easily.

2) the chaos gods are playing a fucking game of chess against each other. It's a fucking game. You're trying to argue "Why didn't Zeus just stop fucking people as animals"
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>>45376891
The Chaos Gods are vastly powerful sentient balls of emotion, but none of them are close to any definition of sane.
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>>45376891
>et they always manage to fuck up at the last minute every single time.

Always? When they get their shit together united by the will of one being (Archaon/Abaddon) into a Chaos Undivided force, they are nigh-unstoppable.

I think it's pretty much clear what were the results of Chaos uniting into a single force. We have seen it the End Times and the start of the Age of Chaos of AoS where the Chaos onslaught crushed all before them in unstoppable tide.

The thing what I find great about Chaos is their victims don't survive before of their heroism or noble resistance, they survive because of Chaos's divisiveness and short-sightedness. Their knowledgeable victims know this and it conjures up a dread that will forever claw in the back of their minds, a fear that will always linger in their steadfast hearts. They know that the divisiveness of Chaos will not last forever. In time a great warlord will rise to lead Chaos Undivided against the world and usher the apocalypse, and there is nothing they can do to stop it. Nothing they do will matter. There will only be Chaos in the end.

It's wonderful grimdark fluff and it's a damn shame you can't enjoy it. I guess you are one of those powerlevel fanatics.
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Moorcock is awesome. He inspired so much modern fantasy stuff, yet he gets so little credit, it's sad. But it's good that /tg/ still knows and cares.

What are /tg/ folks favourite books of his? I always loved The History of the Runestaff. Evil Britain was hilariously fun to have as an antagonist, for an englishman.
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>>45377043
because of their heroism or noble resistance*
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>>45377043
>It's wonderful grimdark fluff
>story about paladins in shiny armor
AHAHAHA
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>>45376953
>>45376891
>drawn out to botter stalemates and infighting
Even in Moorcock's setting Chaos is prone to infighting. That's what Chaos is all about. The infighting aspect is not at all unique to Warhammer.
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>>45377107
I was mostly referring to WHFB lore.

Does AoS trigger you much?
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>>45375496
>moorecock
>good

I tried to read his works and I was just tremendously bored. I could only think "this is the nigga who was slinging shade at tolkien?"

Stale shit. Terrible prose. Maybe it gets better but I could only get through the first and halfway through the second short story
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>>45377196
>The infighting aspect is not at all unique to Warhammer.
But it's not unique, it's just make Warhammer Chaos generic legions of generic evil.
>>45377212
>I was mostly referring to WHFB lore.
Sorts of shit.
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>>45377213
Well, yeah his book a little more complicated than Codexes and Battletomes.
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>>45377221
Oh it's the slavish warmachine troll.
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>>45377239
>Oh it's the slavish warmachine troll.
What?
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>>45377233
You misunderstand me. Warhammrr isn't high literature or good either, but it does t claim to be. Meanwhile fans seem to claim moorecock is a great author, and I just don't see it. He's OK to be sure. But I think it's more nostalgia and him writing about super 70s pyschadelic fantasy shit.
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>>45377239
>Anyone not sucking GW's dick is a troll shilling for another company.
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>>45376742
>>45376916
Clive Barker is a homo?
good thing I never actually got around to playing Jeriho then

>>45376901
even Arioch from Corum (where he's the weakest of the Sword Rulers) is miles more awesome than Slaanesh
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>>45376953
>it's a setting, you can't have a setting if it ends so easily
Tell that to WHFB.

The best way to overcome the threshold of chaos supremacy is by having other factions with abilities or perks that make them a threat to chaos. Or at least have some attention spent on other factions in some ratio equal to the force feeding of chaos into the setting.

Sorry about your grimdark, but playing Warchaos Fantasy Chaos Battles is not only unfun lore wise but moving the plot is nearly impossible without wiping out the setting (see WHFB)
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>>45377077
only read Corum so far and loved it
read some Elric, but for some reason can't stand it. dunno why. maybe style's different? no idea.
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>>45376953
>It's a fucking game.
Too bad that GW didn't try to show this game, they just use it like excuse.
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>>45377305
No, anyone has been in WHFB threads in the past two years would recognize him by his bad English and style.

He flip flops his positions a lot so most definitely a troll.
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>>45375496
Because warhammer first and foremost is a Tactical Minatures Game, and as such they have to abide by rules of tabletop combat.

You want to really get a bizzare universal view, go read "Time's Master" Trilogy by Louise Cooper, as it paints a very different dynamic for Order and Chaos.
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>>45377384
>warhammer
>rules
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>>45377351
>Tell that to WHFB.

No, I prefer to tell you. WHFB ended because it failed as a game not because of the fluff.

Chaos was built up as the greatest threat but it wasn't the main focus all the time in the story. So you have no complaint.

They needed to start fresh and Chaos was the best tool to do it. WHFB would have continued as a setting, if you guys supported it (inb4 blaming GW).
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>>45377213
Have you tried not being a negro?
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>>45377436
>it failed as a game
And it's failed because..?
hint: who designed 8th edition?
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>>45375496

Aragorn isn't nearly tortured enough to be the Eternal Champion.
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>>45377436
It didn't fail as a game it was sabotaged fuck your inb4

Also suggesting that Chaos wasn't the spotlight is naive given all the attention after storm of chaos to jump start just how evil bad and super plot that chaos had.

I mean really GW post SoC did everything in overdrive to hype chaos as the ultimate baddy, getting injected into all forms of media and army fluff to the point that belakor was rewriting time itself to control the victory conditions, where before they were known to be a dark and powerful force. Suffice to say, GW has an absolute bias to one particular faction than anything else they've supported in their line of product.

>they needed a fresh start

Any sensible or reasonable anon other than I or you can say that there existed a thousand other means of keeping the setting fresh other than torching it completely and making AoS.
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>>45377472
40K had plenty of bad editions and pricing increases. It's still alive because?

A loyal player base that supports the hobby.
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>>45377559

>Dumb kids buying overpriced models supports a game that no longer cares about its 'core' audience
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>>45377559
>40K had plenty of bad editions and pricing increases.
And sales going down every year.
>It's still alive because?
Because "muh marines" more popular in burgerland.
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>>45377559
Fewer models necessary to play a game of 40k than WarHordes.
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>>45377538
One word No.

It was established for years that Chaos was going to make a final invasion that is going to destroy the world. The setting stopped right before the final war (End Times/Storm of Chaos).

There was great increase of Chaos lore or anything until the End Times period, At that period GW gave up on the setting and decided it was time to scrap it for something new. At that point that progressed that Chaos destroying the world plotline that was there since 3th ED.

If you guys supported the hobby, then GW wouldn't have gone on with it. There is no bias or anything, it's just consequence for poor decisions.
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>>45377648
There was never of Chaos lore*
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>>45377648
>It was established for years that Chaos was going to make a final invasion that is going to destroy the world.
And that's why all non-Chaos should acts like statists, nice excuse for GW, I think.
>If you guys buyed shitty Empire knights models for higher price than Perry Men at Arms
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Lets put it this way.

If you guys supported the hobby, then GW would have gone with the Storm of Chaos lore for their setting and progressed from there. Heck, Half 7th ED followed it.

But at some point in 7th ED GW realized that WHFB wasn't doing so good and retconned Storm of Chaos and started for making plans for the End Times and AoS. They saw the game was dying and it saw no point to keep it around.

So you see. There is no Chaos bias. GW is just going where the money is. You guys didn't demand WHFB enough for GW's liking. So we are here now.
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>>45377761
>They saw the game was dying
And who put game in that direction?
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>>45377826
Poorfags.

Poorfags ruin everything;.
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>>45377840
>Poorfags.
>everyone who not agree with jews price policy is poorfag
>Poorfags ruin everything;.
Not stupid CEO who cannot hire good gamedesigners?
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>>45377761
Holy bait anon.

The amount of ass pull from GW to retcon SoC to make it a chaos victory outraged the community to the point that Grimgor sicker punching Archaon's bitchass back into the wastes was seen as a bitter end to what was essentially a landslide order victory.

If GW didn't suck off chaos as much as you say they would have let SoC run its course and have order shit stomping chaos back to wastes, Archaon torn asunder by the gods who lost trust in him, and I dunno maybe throw in another sorry arch where another evil faction takes the wheel like chaos dissolves into yet more infighting.

That wasn't the case. GW wanted to railroad SoC as a Chaos victory, failed, and so went on to write End of Times without making it a global campaign to ensure another SoC embarrassment couldn't take place.

Fucking got me hook line and sinker with that bait.
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I'll never understand how 40kids can get so buttravaged about StarCraft copying 40k but when gee-dub does it it okay because "Everyone does it and besides it's different-ish from the source material now!"
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>>45377452
Sorry bruh, so white I glow in the dark. And that's without being a ginger (which doesn't count as white or human, obv)
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>>45377913
>I'll never understand how 40kids can get so buttravaged about StarCraft copying 40k
The same way as WHFBkids blames Warcraft.
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>>45377902
Wrong.

Like I said the start of 7th ED and the Warhams RPG followed the Storm of Chaos results. They would have continued with it, if the sales were not crappy.

It has nothing to do with Chaos. You just biased against Chaos for no raisen.
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>>45377896
Nope, poorfags.

For some reason WHFB community is filled with cheapskates and poorfags. Maybe because it attracts older gentlemen with little disposable income.
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>>45378017
>They would have continued with it, if the sales were not crappy.
And they become crappy because someone screwed up with gamedesign and prices.
>You just biased against Chaos for no raisen.
Lawful Chaos is good reason.
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>>45378071
>Nope, poorfags.
Because..?
Also, to all anons here, any news or rumors about AoS financial dynamic, just curious?
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>>45378017
You clearly missed the part where SoC ending was sabotaged and pissed off the community royally.

That chaos got teleported past the Kislev border pissed off enough people that GW clearly favored Chaos and weren't clever/competent enough to roll along with the campaign.

Of course your 7th and Rpg examples weren't enough, because it happened in the setting GW wanted to happen and not in the results that SoC clearly dictated.

That's also along the same time line that they were removing themselves off resin/pewter to finecast and the prices began creeping upwards as models per box began going down.

It's just bad PR, bad marketing and bad economy.

Even if the obvious chaos bias has nothing to do for sales, driving pieces up, and models per box down, all the while submitting game materials that incentivize larger model armies (7th and 8th ed) it was only a matter of time before the the community routed.
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>>45375496
>Why have Warhammers screwed up the whole image of Chaos so much?
Moorcock's Chaos wasn't any more in depth than GWs. There was the whole conflict with Law which he borrowed from Poul Anderson, but Warhammer had that too, early on.

Later writers glossed over the most interesting parts, but Chaos as depicted in Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned is really very good.
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>>45378194
>Moorcock's Chaos wasn't any more in depth than GWs.
>I never read dancers at the end of time
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>>45378222
Not going to lie, I've read all the Elric books (and some other bits), but none of the other Eternal Champion stuff.
I guess it gets some proper material then? Because Chaos in Elric is pretty much chaos lords and evil ships.
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>>45376578
you could say he was damned from birth
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>>45377077
I really Runestaff too. I've always had a thing for science-fantasy settings, and I thought Hawkmoon and the characters surrounding him were very well done.

Corum is good too. It has a melancholy feel, nice action scenes and the Sword Rulers/Chaos Gods are awesome. The second series manages to take inspiration from Celtic myth and make something interesting out of it in a way that avoids cliches and really fits with Corum's character.

And Elric is just good. Sword and sorcery as it should be, evil magic and high action all day ery day. Though I always felt Elric as a character lacked the depth of Corum or Hawkmoon.
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>>45376742
To be fair to you, the guy's name is Moorcock.
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>>45378194
>>45378422
well, I judge by Corum novels, have barely touched Elric.
in Corum's books Chaos is very pronounced and very active. heck, Corum visits realms of all three Sword Rulers and all three of them killed.
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>>45379122
Yeah, they are tangible beings. Is like in the greek/roman myths, they fuck whit humanity more often than not.
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>>45379186
and at the same time thye are like concepts, somewhat mindless and predictable. that's what cool.

WHFB Chaos is completely Greek Gods, though never interracting directly.
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>>45377648
>If you guys supported the hobby
It's literally GW that didn't support the hobby by giving no fucks of effort into the game portion of WH and instead seeing themselves as a miniature model company.
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>>45378017
What the fuck is a "raisen"?
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>>45379311
it's a dried grape, a quintessence of everything that is vile and evil in our world
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>>45379262
>Greek Gods
I assume you knew about Antiquity from 300?
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>>45379784
i meant Greek Gods like in mythos, where they are basically superpowered mortals. they have all the human thoughts and emotions, nothing transcendent
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>>45379361
I thought it was the plastic modeling they discontinued in favor of finecast
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>>45379854
>they have all the human thoughts and emotions, nothing transcendent
1) You are wrong.
2) Well, actuallyit's majority of them, but I still cannot see connection with Warhammer, since warhammer chaos is just "blue tentacle, rotten tentacle, pink erected tentacle, red tentacle" + "muh madness".
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>>45375805

IS THERE AN AMBER COMIC BOOK???
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>>45380545
Well, yep, but it's very old picture, I found it 4 years ago, but still cannot find full comic.
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>>45376742
>mike moorcock
>not miles long

OneJob.jav
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>this thread

"Bryan [Ansell's] idea of Chaos was very much derived from Michael
Moorcock. I always thought it was a little too close for comfort - it
looked like we were just copying - but I'd always had this sense of
Chaos existing as described in Paradise Lost. I'd tried to bring
elements of that into the background and gradually change it from a
description of demons into a kind of force out of which came
realities, a kind of literal primal chaos."
- Rick Priestley
>>
>>45381796
well, and there they went wrong. shoulda gone to Lovecraft, not to Milton.
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>>45380545
>>45380932
It was only for 9 princes, and never continued. Came out in the late 90s. Was good art, but kinda meh. It did do Rebma well, though.
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>>45377514
maybe that's because he's just badass enough to actually avoid tragic fate?

he has a cool sword, kicks local Chaos's ass, has a true love... Gimli and Legolas together are an incanrantion of Companion. and Aragorn loses enough to actually qualify, I guess.
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>>45381942
>lovecraft not milton

Nah, Chaos had to be a grave threat, not utterly unbeatable. Xenos are a nuisance in 40k the way beasts are in Fantasy, but both made HFY's nemesis humanity. The Enemy Within.

Yeah, Dire Wolves and Orks may be a big, scary pain - but no one can fuck with your head like family can.
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