So, I got around to reading Moorcock finally and I was impressed by his cosmology.
Why have Warhammers screwed up the whole image of Chaos so much? Couldn't they just CnP it?
Are there any other setting with similar Chaos?
Is Aragorn an incarnation of Champion Eternal?
>Why have Warhammers screwed up the whole image of Chaos so much?
You mean Chaos role in cosmology?
Well yeah, I think their main problem was stagnation which didn't allow them to show Chaos vs. Chaos plot, also, I think they tryed to make it more close to Moorcock's Chaos when made Malal who hates not only Order, but Chaos Gods, like spirits of true Chaos from Elric series who hates even Chaos Lords because thought that they are too lawful for Chaos.
Bbut by the way, fiction always will be higher than games.
but a setting is sorta literature, it can have depth! i mean, look at Planescape, it isn't that bad.
and it's not also that. daemons/chaos dukes/whatever from Moorcock are much more believable as incarnations of Chaos and as products of human belief/thoughts than fairly uniform daemons of Warhammers (and don't shove game limitations here, they are described in fluff as pretty uniform, even those that don't appear in the game)
>>Gaynor the Damned
I never could take that name seriously. The character is awesome, just has a name that would never be used outside of cheap jokes today. That's one thing that didn't age well.
Where the fuck did you get that idea? Firstly Moorcock isn't homosexual. Secondly what would be wrong with that if he were?
All that aside, I've always thought that if by some weird series of events I got into doing porn I'd take the stage name Michael Morecock. Just for the lulz.
Because Warhammer doesn't take inspiration from just one idea and infact melds many different ideas together because it was originally a ruleset designed for people to play in whatever setting they wanted.
Kek for some reason i mixed him up with Clive barker
Don't usually pay attention to personal lives of writers
I think there was some sfx article about a biography about barker and l misremembered it as being moorcock
No it doesn't. It makes them laughable cartoon villains with no appeal.
Now before you throw all the literature you have in picture or pdf format about how scary and edgy the big four are supposed to be, hear me out.
The chaos gods are hyped up as this unbeatable and supernatural entity of cosmic warp fart created from both the emotional release of all living beings as well as void powers. Creepy huh?
So why is it that chaos, time and time again gets pushed back and their great invasions and such drawn out to botter stalemates and infighting? I mean chaos is supposedly unbeatable yet they always manage to fuck up at the last minute every single time.
For a stagnant setting like the Warhammers, villains which constantly fail of their own accord aren't scary. They're pathetic
That's poor writing and keeping the game in statis.
Even if you don't count the End Times, WHF has always been the slow victory of Chaos. They might lose the final battle, but they always cause irreparable harm. That is how they win the war.
Because of two simple reasons you petulant autist.
1) it's a setting, you can't have a setting if it ends so easily.
2) the chaos gods are playing a fucking game of chess against each other. It's a fucking game. You're trying to argue "Why didn't Zeus just stop fucking people as animals"
>et they always manage to fuck up at the last minute every single time.
Always? When they get their shit together united by the will of one being (Archaon/Abaddon) into a Chaos Undivided force, they are nigh-unstoppable.
I think it's pretty much clear what were the results of Chaos uniting into a single force. We have seen it the End Times and the start of the Age of Chaos of AoS where the Chaos onslaught crushed all before them in unstoppable tide.
The thing what I find great about Chaos is their victims don't survive before of their heroism or noble resistance, they survive because of Chaos's divisiveness and short-sightedness. Their knowledgeable victims know this and it conjures up a dread that will forever claw in the back of their minds, a fear that will always linger in their steadfast hearts. They know that the divisiveness of Chaos will not last forever. In time a great warlord will rise to lead Chaos Undivided against the world and usher the apocalypse, and there is nothing they can do to stop it. Nothing they do will matter. There will only be Chaos in the end.
It's wonderful grimdark fluff and it's a damn shame you can't enjoy it. I guess you are one of those powerlevel fanatics.
Moorcock is awesome. He inspired so much modern fantasy stuff, yet he gets so little credit, it's sad. But it's good that /tg/ still knows and cares.
What are /tg/ folks favourite books of his? I always loved The History of the Runestaff. Evil Britain was hilariously fun to have as an antagonist, for an englishman.
>drawn out to botter stalemates and infighting
Even in Moorcock's setting Chaos is prone to infighting. That's what Chaos is all about. The infighting aspect is not at all unique to Warhammer.
I tried to read his works and I was just tremendously bored. I could only think "this is the nigga who was slinging shade at tolkien?"
Stale shit. Terrible prose. Maybe it gets better but I could only get through the first and halfway through the second short story
>The infighting aspect is not at all unique to Warhammer.
But it's not unique, it's just make Warhammer Chaos generic legions of generic evil.
>I was mostly referring to WHFB lore.
Sorts of shit.
You misunderstand me. Warhammrr isn't high literature or good either, but it does t claim to be. Meanwhile fans seem to claim moorecock is a great author, and I just don't see it. He's OK to be sure. But I think it's more nostalgia and him writing about super 70s pyschadelic fantasy shit.
Clive Barker is a homo?
good thing I never actually got around to playing Jeriho then
even Arioch from Corum (where he's the weakest of the Sword Rulers) is miles more awesome than Slaanesh
>it's a setting, you can't have a setting if it ends so easily
Tell that to WHFB.
The best way to overcome the threshold of chaos supremacy is by having other factions with abilities or perks that make them a threat to chaos. Or at least have some attention spent on other factions in some ratio equal to the force feeding of chaos into the setting.
Sorry about your grimdark, but playing Warchaos Fantasy Chaos Battles is not only unfun lore wise but moving the plot is nearly impossible without wiping out the setting (see WHFB)
Because warhammer first and foremost is a Tactical Minatures Game, and as such they have to abide by rules of tabletop combat.
You want to really get a bizzare universal view, go read "Time's Master" Trilogy by Louise Cooper, as it paints a very different dynamic for Order and Chaos.
>Tell that to WHFB.
No, I prefer to tell you. WHFB ended because it failed as a game not because of the fluff.
Chaos was built up as the greatest threat but it wasn't the main focus all the time in the story. So you have no complaint.
They needed to start fresh and Chaos was the best tool to do it. WHFB would have continued as a setting, if you guys supported it (inb4 blaming GW).
It didn't fail as a game it was sabotaged
fuck your inb4
Also suggesting that Chaos wasn't the spotlight is naive given all the attention after storm of chaos to jump start just how evil bad and super plot that chaos had.
I mean really GW post SoC did everything in overdrive to hype chaos as the ultimate baddy, getting injected into all forms of media and army fluff to the point that belakor was rewriting time itself to control the victory conditions, where before they were known to be a dark and powerful force. Suffice to say, GW has an absolute bias to one particular faction than anything else they've supported in their line of product.
>they needed a fresh start
Any sensible or reasonable anon other than I or you can say that there existed a thousand other means of keeping the setting fresh other than torching it completely and making AoS.
It was established for years that Chaos was going to make a final invasion that is going to destroy the world. The setting stopped right before the final war (End Times/Storm of Chaos).
There was great increase of Chaos lore or anything until the End Times period, At that period GW gave up on the setting and decided it was time to scrap it for something new. At that point that progressed that Chaos destroying the world plotline that was there since 3th ED.
If you guys supported the hobby, then GW wouldn't have gone on with it. There is no bias or anything, it's just consequence for poor decisions.
>It was established for years that Chaos was going to make a final invasion that is going to destroy the world.
And that's why all non-Chaos should acts like statists, nice excuse for GW, I think.
>If you guys buyed shitty Empire knights models for higher price than Perry Men at Arms
Lets put it this way.
If you guys supported the hobby, then GW would have gone with the Storm of Chaos lore for their setting and progressed from there. Heck, Half 7th ED followed it.
But at some point in 7th ED GW realized that WHFB wasn't doing so good and retconned Storm of Chaos and started for making plans for the End Times and AoS. They saw the game was dying and it saw no point to keep it around.
So you see. There is no Chaos bias. GW is just going where the money is. You guys didn't demand WHFB enough for GW's liking. So we are here now.
Holy bait anon.
The amount of ass pull from GW to retcon SoC to make it a chaos victory outraged the community to the point that Grimgor sicker punching Archaon's bitchass back into the wastes was seen as a bitter end to what was essentially a landslide order victory.
If GW didn't suck off chaos as much as you say they would have let SoC run its course and have order shit stomping chaos back to wastes, Archaon torn asunder by the gods who lost trust in him, and I dunno maybe throw in another sorry arch where another evil faction takes the wheel like chaos dissolves into yet more infighting.
That wasn't the case. GW wanted to railroad SoC as a Chaos victory, failed, and so went on to write End of Times without making it a global campaign to ensure another SoC embarrassment couldn't take place.
Fucking got me hook line and sinker with that bait.
I'll never understand how 40kids can get so buttravaged about StarCraft copying 40k but when gee-dub does it it okay because "Everyone does it and besides it's different-ish from the source material now!"
Like I said the start of 7th ED and the Warhams RPG followed the Storm of Chaos results. They would have continued with it, if the sales were not crappy.
It has nothing to do with Chaos. You just biased against Chaos for no raisen.
>They would have continued with it, if the sales were not crappy.
And they become crappy because someone screwed up with gamedesign and prices.
>You just biased against Chaos for no raisen.
Lawful Chaos is good reason.
You clearly missed the part where SoC ending was sabotaged and pissed off the community royally.
That chaos got teleported past the Kislev border pissed off enough people that GW clearly favored Chaos and weren't clever/competent enough to roll along with the campaign.
Of course your 7th and Rpg examples weren't enough, because it happened in the setting GW wanted to happen and not in the results that SoC clearly dictated.
That's also along the same time line that they were removing themselves off resin/pewter to finecast and the prices began creeping upwards as models per box began going down.
It's just bad PR, bad marketing and bad economy.
Even if the obvious chaos bias has nothing to do for sales, driving pieces up, and models per box down, all the while submitting game materials that incentivize larger model armies (7th and 8th ed) it was only a matter of time before the the community routed.
>Why have Warhammers screwed up the whole image of Chaos so much?
Moorcock's Chaos wasn't any more in depth than GWs. There was the whole conflict with Law which he borrowed from Poul Anderson, but Warhammer had that too, early on.
Later writers glossed over the most interesting parts, but Chaos as depicted in Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned is really very good.
Not going to lie, I've read all the Elric books (and some other bits), but none of the other Eternal Champion stuff.
I guess it gets some proper material then? Because Chaos in Elric is pretty much chaos lords and evil ships.
I really Runestaff too. I've always had a thing for science-fantasy settings, and I thought Hawkmoon and the characters surrounding him were very well done.
Corum is good too. It has a melancholy feel, nice action scenes and the Sword Rulers/Chaos Gods are awesome. The second series manages to take inspiration from Celtic myth and make something interesting out of it in a way that avoids cliches and really fits with Corum's character.
And Elric is just good. Sword and sorcery as it should be, evil magic and high action all day ery day. Though I always felt Elric as a character lacked the depth of Corum or Hawkmoon.
well, I judge by Corum novels, have barely touched Elric.
in Corum's books Chaos is very pronounced and very active. heck, Corum visits realms of all three Sword Rulers and all three of them killed.
>If you guys supported the hobby
It's literally GW that didn't support the hobby by giving no fucks of effort into the game portion of WH and instead seeing themselves as a miniature model company.
>they have all the human thoughts and emotions, nothing transcendent
1) You are wrong.
2) Well, actuallyit's majority of them, but I still cannot see connection with Warhammer, since warhammer chaos is just "blue tentacle, rotten tentacle, pink erected tentacle, red tentacle" + "muh madness".
"Bryan [Ansell's] idea of Chaos was very much derived from Michael
Moorcock. I always thought it was a little too close for comfort - it
looked like we were just copying - but I'd always had this sense of
Chaos existing as described in Paradise Lost. I'd tried to bring
elements of that into the background and gradually change it from a
description of demons into a kind of force out of which came
realities, a kind of literal primal chaos."
- Rick Priestley
maybe that's because he's just badass enough to actually avoid tragic fate?
he has a cool sword, kicks local Chaos's ass, has a true love... Gimli and Legolas together are an incanrantion of Companion. and Aragorn loses enough to actually qualify, I guess.
>lovecraft not milton
Nah, Chaos had to be a grave threat, not utterly unbeatable. Xenos are a nuisance in 40k the way beasts are in Fantasy, but both made HFY's nemesis humanity. The Enemy Within.
Yeah, Dire Wolves and Orks may be a big, scary pain - but no one can fuck with your head like family can.