Is Games Workshop too big? Tabletop has always been a niche hobby. So I wonder whether Games Workshop has expanded too much.
Personally I think that GW is in a bit of a shitty situation.
The main way they market their games is by having GW stores. Due to being assholes to FLGS they have lost their support. As such, currently the only way GW markets their games is through their stores.
Now they are losing money, so they would need to cut costs. At the same time, GW stores account for as much as 50% of the business expenses. Therefore one of the best ways for them to cut costs would be to close stores.
That however would mean losing a lot of visibility, which they would have to compensate through marketing. Since GW doesn't do any marketing however, and they have lost all the support from FLGS, they are in a tight spot.
They have to either try and continue to cut costs / increase profits by butchering their product line, which leads to their actual product becoming less valuable to consumers. Or they start to close more GW stores, which however means they lose visibility as no FLGS wants to deal with their shit anymore.
Overall the biggest problem that GW has is that whilst they were the market leaders they acted like bullies to independent retailers, and like assholes to their customers, and now that they are losing their monopoly its coming back to bite them in the ass.
Well the reality is that they could totally try and do a 180° turn and re-invigorate the business, but it would mean taking hefty risk and losses for a short period of time, which as we know investors aren't very fond of.
Things they could try and do:
>start actually marketing their fucking games
>offer great agreements to flgs so that they get support
>close all their small stores and instead open single, bigger hobby stores (more like an flgs) in large cities
Of course these are just "meta" things that they could do. The other (more important) problems such as high pricing, bad rules and decreasing model quality would still not be fixed.
In the end GW needs to strike a balance between making a great product again and cutting down on the retail stores to find other sales channels. As long as they keep thinking that they have a monopoly and are untouchable they will keep losing money.
Yeah, it was really sad what they started doing to local gaming stores. In my experience they started pissing them off about 10 years ago. New stuff started coming in very late, if it arrived at all - it looked like GW was trying to starve them out. As a result, those stores diversified and people started giving other miniatures games a chance. Good going, GW!
It may be different in the UK, but in the US there are a lot more general hobby stores than GW shops, and they're much more comfortable places to hang out in.
> they acted like bullies to independent retailers
Is that way I can't find any third party retailers to carry them?
The LGS in my hometown stopped carrying GW stuff, and the one in the city I'm currently in only has the AoS starter set.
We're trying to get a mordheim campaign going but noone can find cheap bits or boxes.
>They have to either try and continue to cut costs / increase profits by butchering their product line, which leads to their actual product becoming less valuable to consumers
What is Age of Sigmar?
In my experience you tend to have a local GW in the UK but many people have independent gaming groups that rent somewhere and play once a week but make most purchases through a GW store.
Both of the stores near me still sell GW stuff, and one of them at a discount. The other has a large number of tables available.
GW would be smart to partner with third party shops and promote their stuff that way. Having a place for new players to go to and play is very important to the hobby.
If they keep gutting stores and moving everything online, nobody would bother buying except existing playgroups who play at home. If there's nowhere to have pickup games or to go out and see a game in action, then there's no way to draw in new people easily.
>having lived in Glasgow and now Dundee
I'm so sorry mate. I don't know what you've done to deserve such a horrible punishment, maybe you were a member of the Labour party in a past life.
During End Times they promised investors a massive boost in income thanks to video game revenue and Age.
Remember that GW spends absolutely nothing making the vidya since the developer does all that work, they simply loan the IP and get money back.
Steam reported all GW vidya as financial successes, we know how much they made and can guess how much of that they got. It was a decent amount of money.
So when their market shares only increased 1% in value, we can see that Age of Sigmar lost them a fair chunk of revenue, enough to balance vidya gains on Mordheim, Blood Bowl 2, Vermintide, and preorders for Total War: Warhammer, and Eternal Crusade.
This is made worse when you remember the AdMech, Knights, and 30k releases that are so popular.
So Age lost so much money for them is balances video game and 40k/30k profits in a fantastic year for that stuff.
I remember the old FLGS in my town had Fantasy and 40k decals on the windows, including a Rhino with Warhammer 40,000 underneath that was a whole storefront itself.
It dried up and went out of business. The new shop barely stocks any Warhammer, they specialize on X-Wing and MtG.
They are harsh to independant stores. They have to buy a certain amount of items and have to display them a certain way. Age of Sigmar was the biggest con by GW. They convinced so many stores that it was going to be a top seller and unloaded shit loads of shitmar onto these stores. Gw still made the profit and now the stores have to try and sell the swill that is AoS.
Betrayal at calth actually made money for independant stores but that was about it.
See anon, you've got two choices on what to believe:
1. GW are competent con artists
2. Real people were paid real money to design product for an international corporation, and really thought that AoS was a good idea.
So I guess it comes down to which world you want to live in.
As a Briton, I think the fact that GW is notoriously and historically been the Apple of the market. But In the UK there is no other miniature Game playing line. Only things like Airfix, Hummel, larger firms with a much larger base and yet still rubs shoulders. The UK isnt fully out of recession and with GW being UK based, it is hurting.
A buddy of mine's a manager at a comic/gameshop and he wants to stop carrying GW for just that reason. He can't have a bit of stuff on the shelf and order more in as people get interested and a community starts to form. He has to waste money keeping all this expensive stuff on the shelf at all times. Whats worse is, like you said, you have to order in the new stuff to satisfy GW even if the old stuff isn't selling.
Here in the states, its a bit impressive to know Warhammer isn't a ripoff of WoW/Mech Warrior. It means you're a fa/tg/uy rather than a gamer.
Everyone knows D&D, Star Wars, Settlers Of Catan. Larger communities have 40k groups, and a few of them play Fantasy too. But its niche, not default. There's far more game/comic shops than there is just gaming shops, and only gaming shops carry more than the FFG Warhammer games.
X-Wing and MtG are the standard. Virtually no shop lacks those guys. They are the base.
A GW Corporate Black Ops team has been dispatched to your location, anon. Have a pleasant day, and feel free to look at out new offers for Age of Sigmar as well as the savage new Wulfen available for Adeptus Astartes: Space Wolves armies.
Can't be if Mantic can afford it.
Their models have slowly gotten better. It's still a little hit or miss but for the most part they're big sellers like dwarves and undead are fairly solid. Plus they are very relaxed about whose models you use.
I can say no one is chewing my ass out for using Warhammer ogres for Kings of War. I find did the opposite and brought KoW ogres to a GW shop, I'd be polity told to go fuck myselfpic unrelated.
the difference is 3d printers will become cheaper because they give you access to things like machine parts and foods and other things that will provide incentive to make 3d printers cheap that cant just be torrented and read on a kindle like books. not because people want to print out their army men
What are you talking about? This, if anything, is the Golden age of minis with more variety in the market than ever before. Thanks to internet, ordering directly from manufacturer is easier than ever before. Remember when you had to fax to mail order from GW or pretty much anyone else? What your FLGS carried was pretty much what you could get, even the existence of other stuff were based on mere rumors.
They could easily be way bigger if they weren't fuckheads.
Most people, upon discovering that I play Warhammer, will say "isn't that shit really expensive?" and they're only increasing prices. Reminder that this regular-dwarf sized, monopose, plastic, singular dwarf costs as much as a land speeder.
This is exactly my sentiment. In the age of online retail, bricks and mortar stores are a hugely expensive investment for any company. For a store based around tabletop gaming to draw people in it needs to be large and well-staffed. GW's product line can't support that on its own, which is why they've cut back so aggressively, but that in turn makes the stores less attractive. It's a vicious circle. If they are to survive in the long term they're going to need to either shed or diversify the shops, and redirect the money that was supporting them into supporting FLGSs, with sales bonuses, prizes for events, basically all the kinds of tricks that more far-sighted games companies employ.
Besides which, it's absolutely true that 3D printing isn't going to replace casting, and as anon said, it's for precisely the same reasons as inkjets not having replaced offset lithography for the production of books. It's just an absurdly more efficient system for the mass production of miniatures. Injection moulding can output product at a miniscule fraction of the cost of 3D printing, and much faster, and this will always be the case, for all eternity.
But for a single person making their own figures for personal use, 3D pringing costs far less than buying and maintaining a full injection molding production line, just like how inkjet printers are much cheaper lithograph printing for personal use.
It's not going to drive Geedubs out of business on it's own, but when people have any alternative to buying the models, it will hurt at least a little, and they might not be able to handle that with every other way they're hurting.
I definitely see what you mean. SLA printers can get as much detail as you want, and have plummeted in price in recent years, but they are entirely inefficient for mass production.
That's one of them. Edinburgh games hub, tabletop cafe, etc etc.
Plenty of gamer friendly places as well. Illegal Jacks (Previously), Kilderkin and Drouthy Neebours come to mind. Pretty good place altogether for /tg/ stuff desu.
The Lower Abyssals are entirely hard plastic and completely ball jointed and come with extra weapons while Bloodletters still don't allow for that degree of posability, nor do Bloodletters include extra weapons.
Honestly GW should invest into board games and cheaper starter sets sold at non-niche stores like walmart.
>See cool board game with these guys in power armour shooting aliens in a spaceship at Walmart
>Get parents to buy it
>Game tells me that I can use my models in another game if I buy a couple more models on the internet
>Get parents to buy me more models
>Now I have a space marine army
It isn't like it would even be that hard, they already have space hulk and officio assassinorum, it wouldn't be hard for them to make some sort of game involving the inquisition or bringing back Necromunda or something.
It was all over here a week or two ago, they're releasing cheap, simple 40k kits of and Ork Trukk with some boys and Space Marine Landspeeders, among other things. They'll be sold in mainstream toy shops.
Kirby killed Gamesworkshop.
It was because of him and the buy out that took GW's creator out of the scene.
Tom Kirby pushed the old guard away such as the mighty Overfiend.
GW is about to pound the final nail in 40k's coffin. I have three 40k armies left, trying to convince myself to keep them. I have one HH army.
I have little interest in playing their games anymore. Bad rules = bad game. And GW seems to embrace the fact that they have bad rules.
This, pretty much.
Us oldfags watched helplessly as WD chronicled the descent of our reliably lucrative hobby shop run by enthusiastic fanatics in denim into an awkward pseudo-corp run by educated but humourless idiots in business suits. If GW mgt had sought to systematically destroy everything customers liked about their company, they wouldn't have had to do anything different than they have done.
Nice work, boys.
table top is not a niche hobby are you aware of TOYS or SKylanders or DnD or any thing that's a huge part of mainstream culture. actualy warhammer is very well known buy millions of people id say about half the people that know what world of Warcraft is know what warhammer is. the only people who think its a tiney hobby are people so absorbed in it that its all they have to spend their time on. or people who work in GW in finacials and admit only 2million people in this world are willing to pay for plastic minis each year. its not niche actually pay attention to the people coming into the most centrally located GW shop in your area Warhammer is fucking huge and its what makes all of us "fans" saying we know best or know some thing about economics or know some thing about "dynamic poses" or know some thing about sculpting or rules balance or any thing.. it makes all that shit we say a fucking joke.
because we are the small men. not the minis
then you live in a area and socioeconomic bubble to poor to play wargames and you should just accept that and get tabletop simulator and the new spacemarine mod pack
or just get into the fluff or some thing.
To be fair, a massive influx of newcomers is usually bad, since it means they arrive in such numbers they have no respect for the subcultural norms of the people who made that community.
It's more or less colonization.
Let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Games Workshop doesn't know what they're doing. They know EXACTLY what they're doing. Games Workshop is undertaking a systematic effort to change this hobby, to make tabletop wargaming more like every other hobby.
When I first saw a GW miniature I though "wow this is so fucking cool, it has so many small details". It was a fucking space marine though. Later I started collecting Sister of Battle and they seemed like a pinnacle of detail. Then I switched to WHFB plastic models because I though they looked much more interesting then 40k tin-can spacemen and boxy tanks. And the detail on those kits!
But GW keeps ramping up the detail and they went full retard with it. As someone who appreciates miniatures I can see their though process: they want to impress current players so they - not unlike me - buy more stuff. What they need though is to attract new blood and new blood is easily impressed.
I live in the south of England, and so far the only FLGS I know of is in a fairly small town about half an hour's drive from where I live. In the meantime, there's a GW in the middle of the town I live in, and another one about a different half hour drive away from that one.
From what I can tell, though, the situation is different in the north of England.
Well, they really try, they licensed a lot of shit for Android, but I think the main problem is that AAA developers doesn't interesting (or at least with current GW prices for license).
>GW originated in the UK.
But England looks is not enough for GW according to their financial reports in the last years.
>single, bigger hobby stores (more like an flgs) in large cities
Problem with that is the sheer cost of larger real-estate in big cities. If they wanted to upscale the store, say in NYC (which is small as fuck) they'd be paying rent out the ass and would lose money in the longrun.
I started after playing DoW1
I don't think GW will go away entirely, just expecting them to rethink their business practices. New CEO seems better, and they're trying to address the lack of new blood with the paint and build sets. I just don't know if they can salvage their relationships with flgs. I think they're either going to stagnate more or shrink. There's enough of a playerbase invested that they're not going out of buisness if they cut their retail stores.
It reminds me a bit of WotC stores closing down. I remember playing in battletech pods at their big store forever ago, and was sad to see it go. WotC isn't/wasn't nearly in the same situation though.
Somewhat related. Would an flgs chain work? There's one somewhat starting here, but I don't know how many more locations they plan to open.
>Somewhat related. Would an flgs chain work? There's one somewhat starting here, but I don't know how many more locations they plan to open.
Finland has two or three flg chains. Pic related is the oldest and most dominating one. We have only one GW store in whole country.
I live in France and we have way more non-GW LFGS than GW ones.
What you say is true, but back in the day the GW stores weren't one-man stores, it was mostly hobby and community hotspot, so it was very newbie-friendly.
Nowadays, even the Hobby Shop full of neckbeards and obscure historical miniature lines is more newbie-friendly than a GW store.
its not the processor that needs upgrading it the printer mouth and the movement.
You can already print very fine things but those printers cost a lot. I think that in 15 - 20 years printers will be fine enough to make GW bankrupt
no youre rught about that. But personal use is what will kill GW. people don't buy 6 HQs and such. So printing will be cheaper and GW will have to stop making single model products or make them very very very cheap
I don't know what point youre trying to make?
If you mean that they need a model to print. Well you can make one in a 3D modeling programs or laser scan exsisting model and copy them.
>Well you can make one in a 3D modeling programs
Yeah just like you could do better than Rembrandt with GIMP, doesn't mean you actually know how to do it.
>laser scan exsisting model and copy them
That's a good way to starve the ones who know how to sculpt.
>Yeah just like you could do better than Rembrandt with GIMP, doesn't mean you actually know how to do it.
You sure? You could always import models from the existing games if you want. 3D modeling isnt THAT hard
>That's a good way to starve the ones who know how to sculpt.
Thats the point Im trying to make. They need to become cheaper else people will look for alternatives
>3D modeling isnt THAT hard
Here, state of the art CAD sculpts. Dare to say they are good.
Yeah man, CAD sucks /sarcasm
My flgs still sells Games Workshop stuff, but the selection has shrunk significantly and they don't even carry unpopular armies now.
I think one interesting thing GW did that's hurt them over the long run, at least in terms of getting or retaining players, is that they've hiked their prices to match inflation every single year. In a normal economy that wouldn't be too crazy, but in an economy like ours where the normal wage has stagnated or even dropped since 2000, raising prices every year makes the models feel so expensive.
I used to be a huge collector. I even had apocalypse models bought from Forgeworld, but eventually I quit because the game got too expensive for me. Seriously - let me underscore how insane that is. I bought models from fucking Forgeworld and then quit playing because the hobby got too expensive as a whole.
That and I played Nids, who became the most boring, least-malleable army, most tactically restricted army for all of 5th edition and most of 6th.
As someone who has ordered models from Mantic before and had them take 10 fucking weeks to arrive I have to say that picture pisses me off. What the fuck are they doing over there? Just wasting time with dumb shit.
Get your fucking shipping sorted out before wasting time with this kind of stupid bullshit.
This is why I don't give Mantic my money any more.