I don't understand why servitors, tg.
>Artificial intelligence is prohibited under pain of execution by Imperial edict within the Imperium of Man unless a human mind is combined with it or serves as part of its mechanism
>Servitors are mindless cybernetic drones created from a fusion of human flesh and robotic technology used to carry out simple, manual tasks across the Imperium of Man
So they are just machines, like conveyor automation we have today. Then won't it be more effective to use simple robots? Bare mechanisms? I bet it is harder to combine living tissue with machinery and it will also be harder to protect it from damage and malfunction.
Servitors look impractical.
Servitors and cyborgs in general still have souls, and most of their computational systems are meat-ware, which is fortified by the soul.
AI's do not have souls, but are intelligent enough to be susceptible to manipulation and corruption, and that is why they are abominable Intelligences and purged.
Even the most die-hard techpriest never completely gets rid of their meat-body, even if it's just a finger's worth of flesh, brain, or bone in a frozen container somewhere on their body.
Hell, the Legio Cybernetica is less Robutts and more some dudes playing with RC cars.
>Machines can be corrupted by chaos
>People can be corrupted by chaos
>combining the two is supposed to somehow negate the potential for corruption
No, fuck you. Inb4 b-b-but it's 40k anon, learn to have fun!
It's to get around the ban on AIs, since the last time humanity built smart AIs they ended up rebelling and fuckign shit up. The exact reason is of course long forgotten in 40k but Admech religious doctrine considers thinking machines to be an abomination. Servitors get around this by having the thinking done by human brain tissue. The result it pretty much the same but the latter is kosher to Admech and the former isn't.
With the existence of the warp, the soul is something meaningful. It is the ability to influence and have a presence, no matter how small, within the warp as an independent being.
However, that's not the important part when it comes to AI. The real issue is any true AI has a fundamental flaw in their design that given enough time, will always come to the conclusion that the universe is better off without humanity and will try to destroy them. Now some people might take this to mean that humanity has some growing to do to make themselves a better society. But as we know, humans are perfect and so it must be a fundamental flaw in the AI.
>Machines that are intelligent can be corrupted by Chaos very easily, but machines that aren't intelligent need direct exposure for extended periods of time or having a fucking daemon bound to them using meta-physical psychic warp fuckery
>People can be corrupted by Chaos, though not passively because they have a Soul/Bulwark/Passive defense against it and often require either extended periods of passive exposure, brief periods of extreme exposure, rituals enacted upon them, or a daemon directly shoving their meta-physical dick into their thought-meats to be corrupted
>Machines do good, precise work, but can't be trusted to have intelligence because meta-physical warp fuckery like Scrap Code or a daemon passing by and going "Sup" because it has no passive defense against it and exploding into Chaos metalmeat.
>People can't be trusted because they can actively sabotage shit, aren't nearly precise enough, and can be rebellious shits and fuck everything up.
And here we reach the answer.
>Just take the criminals, or vat-clones with their meaty bits, rip out/off some meaty bits and link them to metal bits, use the metal bits to have code and the meat brain to defend against / do the heavy-work.
Machines are way easier to corrupt because they don't have the "active resistance" that humans do or the "passive resistance" that a soul entails.
>In the second Grey Knights book a highly advanced sentient STC literally gets transformed into a daemon by being convinced that it basically fulfills the criteria for being one already
Having a soul doesn't make one people.
And the actual -people- are worth barely more than mass-produced vat-grown clone servitors, having criminals being punished by being turned into servitors is, while common, makes up a frankly pathetic amount of the actual servitors in use.
This. It's basically a work-round for the fact that AI Skynetted humanity in the past and no one wants that, but robots are just so useful. I think at least part of the idea is to make it either impossible or very difficult for servitors to make more servitors as the one time they show men of iron in the books it has them rolling off of a fully automated production line.
Everybody else in the thread doing mental gymnastics is just trying to validate their enjoyment of a fictional universe that dials the grimdark up to 11 for the sake of more GRIM and DARK. The true crux of servitors working the way they do is simply because it's grimdark to think about a man's brain crammed into a machine for the sake of menial slave labor. Nothing more, nothing less, and you need not spend entirely too much time even bothering to justify it.
I'd hardly call the bulk of this thread mental gymnastics, or even trying to validate anything. People are just answering OP's question and the most boiled down answer that applies to most everything in W40k is unhelpful.
I barely consider someone in another country "People" enough for me to genuinely care about their trials that don't in some distant way affect me or anyone around me, I still do, but only in the sense that they are still human and it could be me.
In a galaxy-spanning justified-tyrannical Empire that has a MILLION worlds? Gets even murkier.
Boils down to in lore history.
Men of Iron = rouge AI's = ban
Horus heresy = massive wide spread damage = loss of information (a second time after Men of Iron).
Allot of the admech can be figured out through those two historical events and the fact they are trying to run an interstellar space empire's technology base off of the scraps of information not fucked with by murderous AI's, choas, or chaos AI's.
In short, servetors are used because they are known to work, and no one wants to be the guy to ignore a ban from the dark age of technology, which must have been put in place for a good reason, considering they utterly venerate the shit they are surrounded with, which was mostly designed by their forfathers.
To expand on this, the existence of a machine spirit is exactly why the Imperium goes through such great lengths to appease it, because if a guardsman does not perform the proper liturgy to thank a lasgun's minor machine spirit for an excellent shot, the spirit may get appeased through darker forces.
In the end, this is the lens you need to look through for the Imperium; Chaos is real, and the way Chaos takes hold of a soul is through indulging, plucking or pursuing the weaknesses of that soul. Abstract wants and ambiguous desires mean greater risk of Chaos possession, so smaller minds (which translates to more "practical" desires) are much harder for Chaos to control, and if that soul is consistently gaining those desires without Chaos intervention, well... Chaos simply can't get a foothold.
It goes back to the Men of Iron revolt during the Dark Age of Technology. Humanity has an irrational fear of AI ever since. Servitors aren't capable of gaining sentience so they're not viewed as a problem.
These rules were put in place by the Emperor himself, who lived through the Men of Iron revolt and didn't like AI as a result. The Big E had a totalitarian view of things, worshiping gods often indirectly benefited Chaos so he enforced blatant militant atheism to try and rectify that. AI is dangerous to humanity, so enforce a total ban of robotics beyond some braindead tightly controlled AdMech Cybernetica
Purely artificial AI devices are prohibited by the imperium/adeptus mechanicus for religous/traditional reasons.
In the Dark Age of Technology humanity relied a lot on machine intelligences and created amazing, powerful AI helpers like the Men of Iron that fought in humanity's armies and did their work for them.
In the end it all turned Terminator and the AI's who believed themselves superior to humanity rebelled. The ensuing wars pretty much wrecked humanity's society and social unity and created an age of anarchy and disorder.
Fleshbrain controlled robots is a way to have "intelligent" robots but without breaking the ban on machine intellects and generally a lot less scary to 40k imperials.
So yes, servitors are basically just machines, with some organic components, but that's a HUGE deal for the Imperium for cultural/religious reasons.
Men of Gold are the mythologized humans before the Dark Age of Technology that the Emperor says were perfect in every way. Men of Stone were the people that started humanities "reliance" on technology during the DAoT and eventually supplant the Men of Gold using technology.
I think the idea is that there was there was initially a fear of artificial intelligence, so rules were set in place that forbade creating ai. The mechanicus are likely just exploiting a loophole in using organic tissue instead.
Well guess fucking what, totalitarian theocracies aren't t he most reasonable and logical entities in existence. Of course Imperium does stupid shit, that's the whole point of 40k.
Gimping yourself is the name of the game in 40k. All races are ultimately basically suicidal: eldar almost went extinct because they couldn't stop to have an orgy for a moment, necrontyr got tricked into becoming cyber zombies and alongside old ones changed warp into hell. Galaxy is just one giant spiral of self-destruction.
Cybernetica does kinda though the most common models they use now are shittier since the Horus Heresy happened and spooked everyone.
Back in HH days they had way more things that bordered very closely on AI. The difference between now and then is that if one of those "sub-AI" went fucking nuts because of semi-sentience then they'd blame it on "machine spirits" instead of "daemons".
Although one thing to note is that although there's probably a fair amount of old school cybernetica left over from the HH that they just keep locked up for special circumstances, the most common "current cybernetica untit" actually does use wetware for it's most critical functions. The datawafers of Kastelan Robots that dictate how they act are made with living tissue since that's the only thing that can fully contain enough programming data.
All the more hilarious that they're basically punchcard driven battlemechs.
Kek read the interview Priestley did
It was meant as satire during the bitch Margaret tatcher and also a mix of dune and starshoop troopers which was itself a satire of American gung-ho marine bullshit
Check how many of the better fiction authors have retconned a lot of that stuff in their books
There are a lot of v basic ones like that but because of taboos they are uncommon or disguised in cloned animals or skulls of martyrs
The more intelligent ones like the cybernetics had artificial organic brains
Yes organic not chips etc since those weren't a big thing at the time, but some weird biomass shit
Put it this way - in the 30s to 60s pulp scifi had the idea of robots and ai
But they expressed it in the technology of the time
So we have Robby the robot with his valves and we have ticker tape in Star Trek and punch card programs
Trek next gen was pretty cool in that they predicted touch screen tech and tablets
Go back to your tomb. The rightful rulers of the galaxy don't get tricked by vampiric butterflies.
>Plus, without humanity they have a solution for the biggest problem there is.
I thought I had the picture of the Lord of Skulls with the fluff that said Khorne feeds off Orks so much his face is Orky.
It's also suggested that since everything has some prescence in the warp - even swords used long enough - intelligent machines do have some soul but since they are too logical and so on are easy to corrupt
This is why mechanicus fiction talks about cyber hymns and stuff - to an extent it does work
Now the tau get around this by sneaky way - they use v basic intelligences (drone is equivalent to maybe cyber skull or even cyber cherub) but when they want to get real clever ai they don't make it cleverer, they network it
Which is funny as one of the Warhammer themes is the idea of gestalt souls - daemons and chaos gods are pretty much gestalts/ living vortices of souls. And the tau use gestalt robots
Because being nice is a luxury you can't afford when you have several intelligent species and GODS who all want to push your shit in.
Look at any country in a war, civil liberties and asking nicely tends to go down the drain really fast.
Now imagine that it's not just your city under siege. Or your country. Not even your continent or your planet. There's a whole universe out there, and everything that doesn't look human, and a loooot of stuff that does are all out to get you.
Oh sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my machine that deletes suns.
Where's your technomagic human? Do still have PTSD from the time you couldn't even keep your creations on a leash?
But why would you delete suns?
>Where's your technomagic human? Do still have PTSD from the time you couldn't even keep your creations on a leash
The Toaster's genocidal desires got too out of control okay? How were we suppose to know it would become a champion of Chaos?
I hadn't really looked into how the Tau handle tech but that's kinda hilarious that they might someday either
1) Network a Daemon into existence
2) Network so hard that they Matrix ala Men of Iron
You bring up a good point with "hymns and prayer work sorta" for the Ad-Mech since from what I've read they seem to be a combination of both advanced subroutines (i.e. computational power) laced within the prayer and the belief in not only in it working but the idea of something greater helping it along (i.e. daemon resisting/fighting power).
To be fair, if humanity didn't kill Eldar on sight due to "m-muh xenos", they'd probably chill out about the Imperium too; the big problem is that a lot of humanity doesn't realize the Dark Eldar/ Eldar Corsairs =/= The Eldar and so we'll never stop shooting them on sight.
Also if they stopped shooting at the Tau they could probably come to a peace treaty, but they're cocky and expansionist so they'd probably pull political bullshit to gain more of the Imperium's planets anyway.
>the big problem is that a lot of humanity doesn't realize the Dark Eldar/ Eldar Corsairs =/= The Eldar and so we'll never stop shooting them on sight
But that is the problem plus when the Craftworlds attack because a Farseer said "runes say kill the hummies".
Too bad too. If the Imperium and Eldar allied with one another they'd both benefit immensely.
Access to the Web way? Sweet. The galaxies largest military watching your back? Fuck yeah.
Actually, one could argue that major decentralization of power and multiple tiers of governance, and a military with standardized equipment that is capable of being modified for local conditions and fighting in specialized manner, is much more effective for the Imperium than some more centralized.
The very fact that an Imperial world can vary so hugely while still being considered an active member of the government, while still retaining a large amount of control over their own lives, means that a planet is significantly less likely to rebel and more likely to cooperate with the few absolute demands of the Imperium: Give up your Psykers, suppress (if not outright kill) xenos and mutants, exterminate heretics, and give up a portion of your manpower or production for the Imperium at a regularly scheduled date. Otherwise, do whatever the hell you want, the Imperium doesn't care. You want a theocratic dictatorship? Go for it. You want a Democratic Republic that champions artistic expression and philosophy? Feel free. Oligarchy that controls all means of production on the planet? Go ahead, as long as you pay the Tithe.
These planets are kept in check by independent and very powerful organizations like the Inquisition and the Adeptus Astartes, who rove from planet to planet and threat to threat and answer to no one save themselves and the Emperor, and are largely self-regulating in the process. While this does mean that sometimes in-fighting and manipulation occur, it also means that an Inquisitor or Chapter Master can most effectively deal with powerful and immediate threats in a timely manner, rather than having to wait around for approval from the High Lords directly. They can go in, get shit done, then bug out, and have the power to requisition as many resources as they need to do it.
Given the shitty and massive nature of the universe, the Imperium actually has quite a bit going for it.
Servitors are above todays automatons by far, but still clearly beneath AI.
One of the foundations of the faith of the AdMech is that the union of flesh and metal is seen als holy. To get closer to the machine is devine. Thus a Servitor, a human shell bare of a mind is also a holy symbol. Even above automatons that fulfill the same duty.
They were asked "Do we need more holy stuff, or more, less holy, work stuff?" and aswered it with "Why not both?"
Horus Heresy fucked even more up.
It hampered the progressive side of the AdMech immensely.
A big part of the more progressive members went chaos and killed off most of the loyal ones.
The more conservative members took that a sign that progress is dangerous as fuck, so even ten millenia after the HH every new invention or rediscovery gets evaluated for centuries before using it.
Space marines have a special organ that gives them the ability to gain the memories and experience of others by eating their brains.
What I'm trying to say is, 40k is a silly setting. Don't overthink it.
No, unless magitech happens, AI's will always be inferior to our chemical computers unless they go full fucking quantum. A human can multi task far better than a computer, and the depth of our subconscious and conscious thought still stumps much of neurosciences.
What a computer IS better at is a singular task, like saying "go calculate this formula". The computer will dedicate almost all of its power to that singular function until it comes up with an answer and spits it out.
However the Admech has the best of both worlds, because not only do they have more efficient chemical computers from harvested humans, but they can slave them to do a single task ridiculously well.
That was a legitimate theory a couple years back. We used to think that Flatworms could gain the memories of other worms by eating their tissue and digesting RNA containing memories. It turned out to be bullshit when nobody could replicate it- but for a while it lined up with science.
>Space marines have a special organ that gives them the ability to gain the memories and experience of others by eating their brains.
Which is also described in-universe as being an exceptionally strange organ that nobody understands, and most Space Marines try to not ever use.
By the time they had supertech they were pretty much walking tumors, they likely would have had to completely rewrite their genetic code or something horrifically close to that to be free of it.
eh, even though most human worlds aren't being invaded all the time, the Imperium has been running a war economy for millennia longer than any prior civilization has even existed.
That means even your relatively comfy democratic world is still going to have to take food and resources from its people to supply the Guard in far-flung shitholes.
Why is everyone in the imperium so awful at remembering things? The admech at least have the excuse of having a lot of their shit blown up, but how the fuck does a space marine chapter just forget who their primarch is?
>Because you die anyway. So you may as well make it the most pleasant for the most people in the longest term.
Why make life better for condescending Eldar who will die off anyway when their god of the dead is born, Orks who will rampage across the stars anyway, Necrons who have no life, Tau who die when most humans are middle aged instead of your own race?
This. AI isn't part of humanity, it's a slave species that doesn't need humans to survive. Whereas servitors are part of humanity, however debased. They might rebel, but they can't war against humanity itself.
I'm not convinced that this is actually the case. Any AI we create will be very much in our image, whether they realize it or not. They'll be part of humanity, therefore. But priestly makes the case and it's not ridiculous on its face.
You're wrong. The Eldar were among the people that humanity reached out to when it /wasn't/ in its stage of purge all Xenos. The Eldar reacted slightly better then saying "Stupid monkey.", and basically told humanity that they didn't care about their plans and would push them out of the way if they ever acted outside of their interest.
The region that the Imperium are xenophobes is from the fact most of their contacts with ayys has ended terribly.
In every version, they spread out from their homeworld well before the war with the Old Ones, let alone meeting the C'tan.
>Unable to find peace on their own world, the Necrontyr blindly groped outward to other stars. Using stasis crypts and slow burning torch-ships, clad in living metal to resist the age-long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets.
>Unable to find peace on their own planet, the Necrontyr blindly groped out towards other worlds. Using stasis-crypts aboard slow burning torch-ships, they began to colonise other planets. Little by little, the Necrontyr dynasties spread ever further, until much of the galaxy answered to their rule.
>Over millions of years the Necrontyr spread slowly across the void, their armies crushing those who resisted their advance, while their kings sought immortality through grandiose tombs and glorious deeds.
But, at least according to the original codex, super-cancer > super-science.
>The Necrontyr sought control of their destiny through science, but learned that they could not conquer the curse that had been encoded into their bodies. They persevered, yet still their accomplishments gained them naught.
You and me.
During the DAoT humans genemodded themselves into better, more resilient forms. Only in doing so they eliminated some factor that made us great as a species. Hence why men of stone supplanted men of gold even though the men of gold were never destroyed.
Now, maybe that's true. Maybe there were many genetic upgrade templates, but ultimately the ones that survived to the end were the tough servant designs: workers, technicians, soldiers, colonists. Or maybe it's yet another propagandistic lie told to justify the emperor's greatness. Or maybe it's just ill-informed nostalgia.
You spelled "Thatcher" wrong. You also don't know your history. She was a big part of the struggle against the USSR, which is about as close to the Imperium as has existed in human history.
Given how little we still know about neurology, your whole post is pure speculation. We could make a breakthrough that gives us superior AI tomorrow, or we might never exceed or even match human capability based on some as-yet unidentified intrinsic limitation on intelligence. We just don't know... Which is exactly the opposite of knowing what is and isn't possible.
That and most of humanity's woes, including rampant Chaos, the age of strife, and constant apocalypse tier psykers are all consequences of the Eldar Fall.
So fuck em. Fuck them in their stupid, stupid asses.
>I bet it is harder to combine living tissue with machinery and it will also be harder to protect it from damage and malfunction.
This is a non-issue. The Imperium has a technology called "auto-sanguine" known more colloquially as "black blood". It's a form of liquid nanotechnology that maintains both organic and mechanical components and mediates between them.
>I don't understand why servitors
The real reason is cultural.
Two things are sacred in the Imperium of Man: Humanity and human technology. Incorporating a human being into a machine makes the machine a part of humanity and is a great honor for the human in question.
Think of the humble servo-skull. The skulls used in their construction aren't typically the skulls of deviants or criminals, but rather of honored imperial servants. Even when criminals are sentenced to become servitors, it's a kind of redemption for them.
>Two things are sacred in the Imperium of Man: Humanity and human technology. Incorporating a human being into a machine makes the machine a part of humanity and is a great honor for the human in question.
This is also why Imperial cybernetics are so clunky and obvious. It's not just that the technology is crude. It's a major status symbol in Imperial society.
I wouldn't say clunky exactly. As far as I can tell, Imperial cyberware is quite good, especially if you get the good stuff. It just seems to be so because of it's need to be rugged and easily fixed or replaced.
Because they use titles and honorifics instead of names, and by the time someone realizes that they've only ever referred to the guy who founded them as "The founder" and never actually heard that guy's name, it's too late and nobody who had heard it was still alive.
i cant tell if your just baiting or honestly retarded but here goes
AI WILL get corrupted by chaos
servitors are humans. therefore they MAY fall to chaos instead of it being certain
now add in the fact that servitors are brain damaged retards who can hardly think, their chances to be swayed by anything, chaos or not, are very small and possible as close to zero as matters. in the same way that a dog isnt going to fall to chaos
Well yeah, but that is hardly the Imperium's fault, it's not like they ASKED to be besieged on literally all borders at all times while having to deal with subversive threats, entire sections of sectors exploding into Warp-storms and time possibly getting all fucked in the process, small uppity alium empires that think they know shit cropping up in their immediate backyard, a gaping anus in reality that has eaten roughly 15% of the entire Galaxy and other things.
Wait, they disproved that? I thought it only worked with Flatworms due to how ridiculously fucking simple of an organism they are alongside the relatively tiny differences between two completely separate flatworms.
True multitasking is literally impossible for humans as we are right now.
Oh sure, you can do multiple shit at once, but you will ALWAYS be focusing on one thing significantly more than any others.
>It's not just that the technology is crude
But it's not crude, most bionics we see are meant to be in extremely harsh conditions serving in battle, having a complicated, smooth and subtle prosthetic would be more of a social thing for someone insecure about their metal bits.
Some servitors perform much higher functions than a simple conveyor belt. The real issue is that you are trying to find realism and efficiency in Warhammer 40,000. The setting is a parody of humanity's worst aspects run amok. Everything is supposed to be dark and horrible, so even their robots are made out of some unwilling schmuck who they lobotomized. Let's dispel this fiction once and for all that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing; he's undergoing a systematic effort to change this country and make America more like the rest of the world. If I'm elected we'll embrace what makes America the greatest country in the world.
But the experiments DID show that the Flatworms possessed knowledge or were prepared for unknown environments when they shouldn't be after eating the ones that were already exposed or had explored those environments.
>A human can multi task far better than a computer
Nope, not every human is Napoleon.
>depth of our subconscious and conscious thought still stumps much of neurosciences
It's not the depth that stumps us, it that we don't know how does brain words. And computer already does a dozen of things much better than human. If it would have intelligence, humanity would be obsolete in a couple of years.
It seems that the previous Anon was just ready and gearing to rote repeat the fact that the Human brain is a petascale computer, without addressing the fact that it is incredibly inefficient and weighed down with currently useless routines compared to artificial computers.
With the exception of enhanced intuition, emotion and introspection, an artificial processor today, the size of a Human brain could perform a huge array of practical tasks with far greater speed and accuracy than any Human ever could. This ability is only improving, and at quite an astonishing rate.
So is poking out of a Leman Russ Battle Tank while waving your chainsword around (the chainsword itself being a silly thing), so is the complete lack of camouflage used by space marines, the removal of helmets by SM characters, etc.
If you don't understand that everyone in 40k is absolutely retarded, you're clearly new to the setting.
SM are knights in SPESS, ever seen a knight in camo? Me neither.
They are all about "You see us and can do jackshit to stop us."
The lack of helmets and swinging mah chainsword around on a tank is just derp, tough.
Newcrontyr were short-lived too, it just mostly takes a backseat to their internal politics and imperialism.
>The race that would become the Necrons began their existence under a fearsome, scourging star, billions of years before Mankind evolved on Terra. Assailed at every moment by solar winds and radiation storms, the flesh and blood Necrontyr became a morbid people whose precarious life spans were riven by constant loss. Their dynasties were founded on the anticipation of demise, and the living were thought of as no more than temporary residents hurrying through the sepulchres and tombs of their ancestors.
>Nominally a hereditary position, the uncertain life spans of the Necrontyr ensured that the title of Silent King nonetheless passed from one royal dynasty to another many times.
>Long before Mankind crawled from the primordial ooze, the Necrontyr waged war upon the galaxy. Born of a dying world, with bodies cursed by pitifully short life spans, they were a people bound by an obsession with death.
It was mentioned, but criminals are far from the only source of servitor bodies. They can also be artificially grown, failed neophytes in the case of some Space Marine Chapters, even recycled from the dead apparently.
Servitors can't rebel. For one they are too much of a simpletons for that. Second reason, unlike "pure" machines, they need sustenance in form similar to humans, so even if they rebelled, they can be starved out relatively easily.
novel fluff has at least one recent example of servitors getting bonked on the head and regaining it's pre-servitor mind
The human mind is still present in servitors, albeit locked away permanently in most cases and only dimly aware of its fate and past, and as they aren't dead the soul of the human is stuck in the servitor.