I'm looking for a superhero rpg for my group. We want something less sucky than M&M 3 (the combat and power usages is ridiculous) and something less fucky than Marvel Heroes RPG.
I'd love some suggestions. Also, general superhero-rpg thread?
Superhero games can always be broken by powers, the DM has to be vigilant as a hawk about that shit.
great selection of powers and very simple and fast combat. (its named one roll engine for a reason)
I'll check up on GURPS!
Isn't Wild Talents in another world, sort of?
Also, anyone who's played M&M3 and can answer me a question about damage?
- Your damage is 'Damage + 15' vs Toughness. If the opponents Toughness is high enough, does that mean that you have zero chance at defeating him?
You can also try Champions / Hero System, but it's pretty crunchy for some people
>Your damage is 'Damage + 15' vs Toughness. If the opponents Toughness is high enough, does that mean that you have zero chance at defeating him?
In theory, but this isn't necessarily the end of the group. I literally cannot count the comics that have the hero or heroes go;
>"He's too tough/powerful/invulnerable to do anything but distract! We have to find away weaken/remove powers/get him to ruin himself/trick him!"
See; every fight against the Juggernaught from before the year 2000.
A DM who legitimately understands the genre will likely give you ways out or workarounds for said super-invulnerable villain.
Admittedly modern comics are short on that sort of stuff because...well, page counts are lower then a dead man's sex life these days and the space to write a clever fight or story is almost reduced to nothing.
Psychic attacks, mental, attacks, sensory attacks.
But really, M&M's a system for a GM who doesn't lack balls enough to tell them "yes I know it's rules-legal, no you can't do that."
You just need to ask them "what about this character would make an interesting superhero comic book". If they can't answer, tell them they need to think harder on shit.
Dude, you're going to get all of the same suggestions every time you post this thread.
How about actually looking at some rulesets, and trying different things or talking it over with your group to find out what works for you?
I started writing a setting for a superhero campaign, but as it progressed I realized it had nothing in common with normal Marvel or DC stuff- it was just Delta Green or UA with magic-that-isn't-called-magic users as it's PCs. Is there a system that fits this theme, or am I targeting a niche so small that it doesn't exist?
>- Your damage is 'Damage + 15' vs Toughness. If the opponents Toughness is high enough, does that mean that you have zero chance at defeating him?
Yes, if they have this much toughness beating them up won't work.
Of course having somebody THIS tough means you are either punching way above your PL or they're basically immobile tank (no dodge/parry).
Don't forget that you can power attack for a little extra. Or crash things into it.
Then you have any sort of power other than "punch it in the face really hard".
Afflictions and Weaken come to mind.
IIRC the argument was that 3e is more streamlined and thus bland while 2e allowed more freedom in creating powers but was more finicky.
But as the (mirror of) other guy, I haven't actually done 2e to have an opinion myself.
That's what Attack-Defense trade offs are for. Power Attack as well. There's also combined attacks - I threw a powerful enemy at one of my characters once, and they took it down by having everyone else aid the guy with the highest power in the attack/power tradeoff smash it.
Then again this was all 2E so I might be talking out of my ass in 3E
THIS THREAD! IT WAS MADE FOR ME!
>Hal and Leonard in the back going "What the hell am I doing here?"
Ah. Well, there's your answer, OP - if they've got low defense high toughness, hit them with low attack high power, or enemies who work together. Also, like >>45338208 pointed out, you can hit them with attacks to other saves. A good drain toughness (or whatever they call it) is always good, as is inflicting conditions which can cause unconsciousness or other loss conditions besides hits to toughness.
If all else fails, remember Sun Tzu. They don't have to beat the hero to win, they just have to accomplish their objective and get away. Disposable minions, obstacles, temporary incapacitation such as entanglement - they're all good.
Players can't be invulnerable.
First, the book outright tells you to take a good hard look at somebody overwhelmingly leaning towards one side.
But lets presume that you let it slide.
You have a guy with 0 dodge/parry and 20 toughness.
Well, there is still 20% of a regular 11* damage attack getting through. And every attack dealt to them hits because they got 0 avoidance.
(*It's 11 because they probably took Impervious too and anything 10 or less is ignored.)
But also because they have 0 parry and 0 dodge, they must have 0 Fighting and Agility attributes.
You hit them with a Weaken effect to those attributes, drive them to -5 and they're unable to move at all.
table top games are largely a niche.
no officially licensed systems out atm
comics themselves don't really have much of an uptick in sales even with current success of super hero movies
Go bug the pdf thread, they've probably got a dl link to throw around.
>What about DC Adventures and Marvel Heroic?
Anon said there were no licensed RPGs AT THE MOMENT - those two licensed spin-offs are sadly defunct.
I have some modules for the old DC Heroes RPG - my brother got them for me one Christmas - and I kind of want to run them, but I'm worried that the system might put people off... it's pretty 80's.
This is a fucking poisonous mind set. It demands that everyone have a set power level or talents or gadgets or skills.
The Avengers had wildly varying powers and the physically weaker ones did not always have a billion dollars in tech or expertise in a dozen fields to make up for it. Quicksilver can run real fast, Captain Marvel could turn into fucking light and fly. Beast was more physically capable than any human being could be and a genius in biomedical fields. Hawkeye was a mostly deaf carnie archer. Captain America is just a guy that never gets tired and has an unbreakable shield. Thor is literally a god. Wasp can shrink, grow, and shoot laser blasts. They're all on the same team. All fighting The High Evolutionary, Dr. Doom, Ultron, and all that jazz.
If you want to play Daredevil and your bro wants to be Colossus, who is flat out more powerful, that should be a narrative choice. You want to play a brooding ninja with skill and suffering and he wants to be a Russian powerhouse. You can be on the same team, fighting the good fight, and stopping New York from being wrecked for the 1700th time.
Teams can make a system as crunchy as they want, but if you have to adhere to power levels and balance, mechanics for every power you can imagine, you won't capture the feeling of a plucky team of heroes out to save the day.
So my group wants me to run solo sessions of MnM 3e to build up to the group game.
So far I've only got two characters from the group
>crime fighter who's rogue gallery are his exes
>super natural creature that's the son of Satan and is chilling on earth.
I think I have a plot for the crime fighter but I'm having trouble for the demon
Wild Talents: the system with multiple enjoyable settings.
My personal favorite is
No, that's it's name. Godlike.
WW2 with Supers: normal people are 100 points, Supers are 125. Those extra 25 points can do fucking amazing things, like turn Gunpowder to sand, or people who intend to harm you into pillars of salt, or connecting any two doors you have walked through before with a "other space" path between them, or let you tear apart engine blocks barehanded and assemble impossible SCIENCE devices from their components...
But OH MY GOD it is lethal. War can and does kill supers... *constantly*. The Sample Character (a street tough who transforms into a super Gorilla who we followed from creation) gets eviscerated on Normandy beach. It's brutal, dangerous, and depressing. But I love it as a setting.
The ORE message boards are full of fun and unique settings. One of them is "Super Segrees of Separation", where there was an Event that created the Original superhero (a 1950's farm girl who is functionally Superman), but she accidentally passed superpowers on to 10 other people who she had contact with... (Including a random Bank Robber, the President, and J. Edgar Hoover). Each "generation" of Supers that followed her was slightly less powerful... But also left a subsequent generation of 1-10 more Supers in their wake.
It's a great "heros make villains, villains make heroes" kinda setting.
Believe me: it is.
The President (Harry Truman) went on to serve as President continuously from 1953 (when he met the Superwoman) to his death in 1972. He could persuade anyone to do anything, and principally, he persuaded the american people to vote for him.
J Edgar Hoover became... A non-entity. A rumor. He stopped making public appearances, though he still is the director of the FBI (yes, even in the contemporary era), he hasn't been seen or heard from since the 60's. All communication from him comes through intermediary parties. Most notably, his Secretary, Miss Rosensteel. She often contacts new Talents before they have displayed their powers publicly, which is really fucking creepy.
I came here to say this. If you are lazy, not a good system. If you can get creative, there's a way to do damn near anything.
I need to get my game running again, I let my boys down.
Tell me somebody has a copy of this they can link to
Venture City Stories is out, with how to build powers for that World of Adventure.
Venture City Powers is almost certainly coming out real soon, as it was offered to backers of the recently finished Fate Bits to Books kickstarter, along with a print book that combines the two releases into one handy tome.
During the campaign, the Venture City power creation rules were unlocked as open content, so they should be in the FATE SRD in the future.
There's also Daring Comics RPG (Powered by Fate) that got kickstarted a couple of months ago and is probably available on DTRPG now or soon.
2e had much easier character creation, it used the same ability scores as DnD so it was an easier transition and let you actually buy powers, you didn't have to build them from scratch like you do in 3e. In 2e, you buy Enhanced Strength for damage, and Super Strength for lifting, with a number of premade alternate Power options for SS that make sense, all the work of making super breath, thunder claps, using your strength to resist being moved, all ready to go. In 3e, you have to look up each of those effects individually and figure out which you want. 3e also has enforced tradeoffs. Want to be good at something? Better than most others? Sure, you can do that. So long as you're okay with sucking at something else. You can have all decent defenses in 3e, or really good saving throws, but be shit at taking a punch. Also they nerfed the dogshit out of certain abilities. You could build a Power Level 15 character, astronomically powerful by MnM standards, give him the exact same powers as Doomsady or Superman, yet there's still a 1 in 20 chance that they can he harmed by something as simple as C4 explosives.
If by streamlined you mean vastly more complicated and unfriendly to new players, then yes.
>you have to build powers from the ground up
No, you don't. There's a list of powers with add-ons and flaws plus the ability to make powers if you want something more specific that isn't on the list (it usually isn't necessary)
Eat dogshit, fuckface. It's a game, not a story.
You don't like balance? See how much fun you enjoy a game of 3.PF as a monk, when the rest of the party is a Wizard, Druid, and Cleric.
We'll have your bitchass back here screaming in autistic rage about how unfun it is within minutes.
Stories can make those sort of things work. Games need actual balance, because you can't just magically fiat stuff away to work. Because having one PC just be out and out stronger then all the rest combined? IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.
It helps that the very structure of any D&D game is completely different from a superhero game. In fact, comparing D&D's assumed structure to ANYTHING is pretty fucking regarted honestly.
Also requesting pdf
I've basically been playing Bloodshot in a recent Mutants&Masterminds game so it would be great to see an official take on the character from an rpg perspective
Hardly. In 2e, you just bought super speed, and what you got for each rank was clearly defined. In 3e you don't buy powers, you buy individual effects, and build powers with them. And there was absolutely no reason to make it that complicated. In 2e, you bought Blast, it was ranged damage, and the book described how to customize it. 3e just had Damage, and you were on your own finding modifiers for it, and no clue you could even add them. 3e is shit, 2e is the best superhero system ever made.
We get it you prefer 2e, but if you think 3es power creation is complicated your either retarded or illiterate because the book spells out exactly how to build powers like blast
If you think it's NOT more complicated you're either a retard or an elitist moron who hates new players. Just look at super speed in both editions. If I have to, I'll copy the entry from both books just to prove how astronomically wrong you are.
From the 3e corebook:
Effect: Ranged Damage • 2 points per rank
You can make a damaging ranged attack. It might be
a blast of energy, a projectile (arrow, bullet, throwing
blade, etc.), or some similar effect. You make a ranged
attack check against the target’s Dodge defense. The
attack’s damage equals your power rank and the target
makes a Toughness resistance check against it.
I'm so, so sorry you're terminally retarded.
I you're so worried about new players why don't you walk them through character creation for the first game
You know teach them the system instead of just throwing a rulebook at them
But I do get your point 2e is an easier transition from D&D, I get that but 3E has made significant improvements over the old 2e system
The powers might not be a shopping list you can pick from any more but you can still build just about any power you want
Yeah, tucked away in a tiny sidebar, a guide on how to turn Damage into Blast. Here's the REAL power entry.
Action: Standard • Range: Close
Duration: Instant • Cost: 1 point per rank
You can inflict damage on a target by making a close attack.
The exact nature of your Damage is up to you, with
the GM’s approval; it can be anything from a powerful impact
to razor claws, energy fields, or some other damaging
medium. The target resists with Toughness:
DAMAGE RESISTANCE CHECK
Toughness vs. [Damage rank + 15]
Success : The damage has no effect.
Failure (one degree): The target has a –1 circumstance
penalty to further resistance checks against damage.
Failure (two degrees): The target is dazed until the end
of their next turn and has a –1 circumstance penalty to
further checks against damage.
Failure (three degrees): The target is staggered
and has a -1 circumstance penalty to further checks
against damage. If the target is staggered again (three
degrees of failure on a Damage resistance check), apply
the fourth degree of effect. The staggered condition
remains until the target recovers (see Recovery,
Failure (four degrees): The target is incapacitated .
Who's retarded now, fuckwit?
>If I have to, I'll copy the entry from both books just to prove how astronomically wrong you are.
SUPER speed, kid. Read the whole post. In 2e, you just buy ranks of super speed, and it tells you all the effects you get with it, all bundled up and ready. In 3e, you have to buy Speed, Quickness, Improved Initiative etc. SEPARATELY.
LINKED Flat 0 points
This modifier applies to two or more effects, linking them
together so they only work in conjunction as one.
The Linked effects must operate at the same range.
The action required to use the combined effects is the
longest of its components and they use a single attack
check (if one is required) and resistance check (if both
effects use the same type of check). If the effects have
different resistances, targets check against each effect
separately. Different Alternate Effects cannot be Linked
since they can’t be used at the same time by definition.
Generally, the same effect cannot be Linked to itself to
“multiply” the results of a failed resistance check (such as
two Linked Damage effects causing “double damage” on
a failed check).
This modifier does not change the cost of the component
effects; simply add their costs together to get the combined
Yes but the point is you can build it
You still have super speed the only thing you had to do was spend 30 extra seconds building it
But it's not like our time is valuable anyway we're just two idiots arguing on the internet
And what exactly was the reason for changing it in the first place? I'll answer for you, NONE. There is no good reason. Changes should be improvements, not just for the fun of it.
>premade to speed up and streamline character creation
Oh my, what's this?
Turns out, 3e also possesses the mystical power of PREMADES!
With next gen customization too!
Effect: Enhanced Initiative, Quickness, Speed • 3 points
You are fast! Each rank of Super-Speed gives you the
effects of Improved Initiative as an Enhanced Trait,
Quickness, and Speed, with a ground speed rank
equal to your power rank. So with Super-Speed 10,
for example, you have +40 to initiative checks, can
perform routine actions normally requiring two hours
in just 6 seconds, and have a ground speed of 2,000
miles per hour!
Heroes with Super-Speed often have additional powers
based on their speed, particularly things like Air Control
(whipping up powerful winds, see Element Control,
previously) or modifiers to their Strength Damage like
Area or Multiattack to represent the ability to make a
rapid series of attacks in a single turn. High (possibly
Enhanced) active defenses are also common for characters
But I'm sure you'll just throw another wobbler about SIDEBAR and whatnot.
>IT DOESN'T HAVE THIS IT'S SHIT
>IT HAS IT, IT'S JUST A SHIT RIPOFF
And zoom go the goalposts, and I'm now aware you are not interested in any actual discourse, you just want to scream about people liking something you don't like.
Not even close. 3e is vastly over complicated, and even seems aware of it because they still throw in bits of 2e style powers. But doing something right once in a while, doesn't change it's other problems. Such as...
Restrictive tradeoff system.
Insanely complicated time and value progression changes.
Increasing expensive ability scores.
Weakening all forms of defense.
Making it impossible to properly emulate certain prominent comic characters (because we all do it eventually).
My own two cents on 2e versus 3e M&M:
I really like 2e and know it well. It's a great system. 3e, I don't know as well, but it's also a great system. Yes, 3e does have a bit more of a learning curve, because it seems to have decided to focus a little more on just giving you the effects to play with, rather than a LOT of pre-made powers (which were, technically, made out of simpler effects). This is pretty good if you're a system veteran, not so much if you're a newbie. And it sometimes frustrates me, when I go make stuff in 3e, because I can no longer jigger with the component effects quite the same way as I could the single power which was bundled linked effects in 2e.
So, I'm neutral on that. It's a steeper learning curve, but it also kinda sucks for newbies, unless you have all their little power profiles or similar things that have suggested powers that work for [theme]. But, 3e M&M did make some actual improvements. It closed a fair few loopholes that could be abused to break the system particularly badly, such as putting a container effect that gives you a discount on points spent inside of ANOTHER container effect that gave you a discount on points spent (say, an alternate form inside of a device, for those familiar with the system). The way they revamped devices to avoid that sort of abuse was a good thing. They also changed the progression tables for range, mass, and so-on, so powers don't scale up quite so quickly. This is usually a good thing. They modified all the area effects to have a fixed area, rather than scaling with power ranks. That shit got ridiculous really quickly in 2e. Though if you want ridiculous, it's a sad loss, as getting a really long-range death laser as a line effect, or really big area effects got a lot more expensive in 3e.
At the end of the day, they're both good systems and have their good points and bad points. Play the edition you like or know well.
A couple other things I'll say I like about M&M 3rd. The made Regeneration FAR easier to work with. Seriously, look at how it works in 2nd edition. It's a mess. It's more granular and thus allows for more customization on how fast you recover from different kinds of harm, but it's a mess.
As much as it's pretty cool, Evasion and Improved Evasion in 2nd edition are disgustingly under-costed for what they do, because they do exactly what they do in D&D. Make reflex saves all-or-nothing, or make even a failed save only do half overall effect ranks. Two points for "Immunity: Area effects, Limited: Half effect" is...pretty damn good. It's worth noting that the change to additional bonus that doesn't need to meet PL limits was a common houserule, or so I've heard.
Affliction being one single power instead of a subset of powers for different specific debuff conditions was nice. It also has some neat modifiers that weren't in 2e. (Sadly, some neat modifiers from 2e didn't make it to 3e, either).
Whether or not you like 3e, I would suggest taking the good ideas you do like from it for your 2e game. And vice-versa.
strength lets you break out of whatever trap you might have failed to dodge. It wouldn't be applicable every time of course, but if your Toughness, Strength, Will and Fortitude are good, you can afford to ignore Reflex.
I recall many 2e speedster builds on the Atomic Think Tank didn't use the Superspeed container because at higher levels you were buying stuff you didn't need, like the difference between +8 Initiative or +12 was marginal, when you could be spending those points on 4 alternate powers or something else.
>2e didn't NEED anything like that.
2e HAD something EXACTLY like that, only LESS; and you are citing it having this as the reason it's better.
>half those powers would just have a page number for reference, they wouldn't need a breakdown.
This is "super speedster" power samples for the player to pick from.
2e's also had a breakdown just like that; only with less options to choose from.
No it didn't have page number references to most of them.
I was pretty disappointed with the ending, yes.
Then I learned that in the initial filming of the movie he ended with the girl that actually liked him without any crazy exes bullshit and then they changed it to the crazy one, it really tanked my opinion of the movie.