How to create a good and sympathetic Black/Red Faction?

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Pirates, love.

>>45318809
Artists, Poets, rogues of all stripes.
B is the color of self interest, R is the color of passion.

I am puzzled at Magic's reluctance to give us more red artists and instance that all red dudes are barbarians and pyromaniacs.

>>45319369
Would Wizard be a smart storyteller Tibalt would be this instead of a cliché "lol I hurt people cause it's fun" villain. Everything about him screams romantic titanism.

>>45319393
because magic is a game about magical assholes fighting each other. most artists don't beat people senseless or set them on fire.

>>45319415
But there's room in Blue for scholars, room in Green for elderly druids, room in White for house cats.

>>45319399
Something something Byronic Hero.
But yeah, romanticism would be a great way to explore that particular side of BR, instead of edge, spikes, and sadism.
Would be perfect for the Innistrad setting as well, with regards to Tibalt

Cinders

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Make this the leader

>>45319482
His backstory really fits in iirc. He was forced to study necromancy but it wasn't in his chords and started hating himself and society because of his failures. Put in an impossibile romantic interest and you're done.

>>45318809
Being the antithesis of the evil GWu thought-control faction would make it good, right?

>>45318809
it all depends what you think is sympathetic.
But Green Peace and Peta all fit Black/Red colors.

>>45319790
>Peta
>sympathetic

>>45318827
pirates are BU or RU, not BR

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>>45318809
But Anon, Rakdos cult already exists.

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>>45318809
Just make the White side even worse.

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>>45318809

>>45320029
Pirates would show up in a blue leaning water world, where they are most definitely the BR faction. They raid and pillage for wealth and pleasure. They are literally the Mardu/kolaghan except on boats instead of horses.

>>45319439
Anon, didn't you get the memo, red is only allowed to be dumb burn.

You start by going backwards, when Black wasn't just Spooky Evilness and Red wasn't just ALL ANGRY ALL THE TIME.
So, take the good parts of the colors. Black's Will to Achieve and Red's Passion and Creativity. Go from there.

I KNOW

JUST MAKE THE WHITE AND GREEN STUFF MORE EVIL

NO EFFORT INVOLVED

YOU NO WANT TO PLAY ORWELLIAN COMMIE-NAZI, FUCK YOU

>>45318809
Well, maybe White\Blue is a totalitarian mass-mind-controlling regime and Red\Black just wants for everyone to stand free and equal by burning everyone and everything then reanimating the charred remains into a society of mindless undead..
Well, shit.

>>45320134
>MTG water world
Why isn't this a thing yet?

>>45320047
>You will never be a Rakdos stand up
>You will never fall in love with the slightly crazy Rakdos girl who owns your favorite club
>You will never have three beautiful children who grow up to be talented musicians
>You will never help keep terrible Rakdos entertained and asleep for as long as his inevitable doom can be prevented
>You will never get any respect, no respect at all

>>45318809
To answer your question. Look at any video of ToRtanic featuring a lightsided Sith protag. Then proceed to make a whole faction full of people that try to live up to those ideas.
"Happiness is an emotion, so is passion. I can use those to fuel my ambition instead of rage and hate."

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Pic related would be a good R/B hero

>>45320450
>lightsided Sith
You mean a Mary Sue?

>>45320431
I imagine Rakdos members are well respected a lot of the time. Remember the murderhobo chucklefucks are a specific part of Rakdos. They're the innermost circle that reports directly to the demon itself. In practice, Rakdos owns ALL the nightclubs, including the ones off-duty Boros go to let off steam. Rakdos is also the playwrights. Shakespeare would've been Rakdos, as would Mozart and Beethoven, and Rafael and all the other big renaissance names.

>>45320315
Maro's opposed to the idea because using Forests/Mountains/Plains/Swamps to cast something water-related breaks immersion in his mind.

Also only blue is allowed to have water things period, even if sharks are RG incarnate and every color can get things that live in the sky or underground.

>>45318809
Legitimate freedom fighters combating tyrannical oppression.

>>45320483
>Using that term without knowing what it means
The Sith care about using your emotions and dominating others through the force. Nowhere has it ever said that you need to be a murderhoboing dick with anger issues to do so.
The real Mary Sue's are 'grey' jedi like Kyle Katarn. "Let me use powers based on being calm and serene and powers based on passion fueled emotiongasms at the same time because I'm just THAT force aware!"

>>45320489
And THAT'S how we get retarded shit like Reef Worm, the greenest creature ever in existence.

Just make the lands Ocean Themed, you chucklefuck. If you can do it with any other fucking theme, you can do it with water too. For fuck's sake, there are walking and flying creatures in any colour, why should swimming be a Blue exclusive?

>>45320570
because "MUH BLUE"

seriously, it always comes down to what Blue can have and only what Blue can have.

the fact it gets all aquatic life and nearly half the fucking fliers in a given set, and anything to do with water is insane.

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Anyone think THIS would make a good planeswalker?

>>45319509
>>45320716
Is this a new epic reddit mémè?

>>45318809
Furnace Uprising.

Elesh Norn is not your waifu, she is the symbol of our oppression!

Anarchy any terrors win the game

>>45320315
A couple friends and I actually designed a blue-slanted waterworld set in college, it was like the blue Torment

>>45320315
>what is Azoria
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Azoria

>>45320489
Would have made more sense to me to swap the land Blue and Red get.

Mountains and everything high scream "wizard" to me, while the sea is a very chaotic thing.

>>45320977
Mountains are made of violent tectonic shifts and collisions of the planets. Or volcanic eruptions and are the rage of the planet made real.
Water is one of the most important scientific and industrial compounds humanity has ever touched.

>>45320977
Pretty sure the idea behind it was that volcanoes are associated with anger and emotion and water is associated with memory in a lot of cultures. Don't ask me which ones, just repeating what I think Garfield said.

>>45318809
I think the problem is Ravnica and how much it influences dual-color relationships

The plane was built from the ground up for its guilds to represent the ideological extremes of their color pairs, RTR Hallowed Fountain, Syndic of Tithes, Rakdos Shread-Freak's flavor texts exemplify this: the guilds are all assholes in their own way regardless of color

but now everything must be to an extreme all the time, so black red is MURDER KILL RAPE BURN all the time

>>45321067
So what?
Many mountains are old geological formations and are very stable.
Conversely many parts of the sea are subject to tectonic shifts that can cause tsunamis, nevermind typhoons and shit.

This association with types of land and colors of magic is completely arbitrary in the end.

>>45320074
>JC
>Not pure white

>>45321167
You got it. Rav came up with unique identities for the dual colors, now they just keep copying them.

>>45321198
They are what they are because they are. The honest answer is "If you don't like it, shut up."
But if you need justification Mountains are reds domain because dragons are always on top of mountains. Volcanoes are always mountains in media, and mountains are made by earthquakes and have avalanches and rockslides and SCIENCE doesn't happen in the secret mountain-top lab.

Why are islands blue? Because the wizards tower most often looks like a fucking lighthouse. Old astronomy was for navigating the sea and tended to be associated with lighthouses. Hence, blue secluded islands are perfect for astronomy and lighthouses!

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>>45320188
>implying there can be truly benevolent leaders in any organization

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>>45318809
Lorwyn Boggart

>>45321307
Fucking MaRo and his lies about Lorwyn being unpopular, it keeps making it into the top poll results.

>>45321278
>The honest answer is "If you don't like it, shut up."
Exactly, stop making shit up to justify it.

>>45321354
Reread the sentence. I like it, so I can justify it all I want. You don't but none of your bitching will change it, so shut up and find something you do like, or play the game and get over yourself. Your choice.

>>45320570
I always like how MaRo get berzerk every time there is a color pie break, even in supplemental product, except when it's blue.

>>45321674
MaRo is a ginormous faggot and everyone knows it. But he knows how to drive product, and that makes Hasbro happy, which keeps him in the job. Knowledge of driving product and actual creative vision and skill are two different things, tho.
Magic needs a re-definition of the Colour Pie and he's the big reason it won't happen. He's to blame for Red being the shitty, uninteresting colour it is, even though there is so much potential for it, even apart from land-destruction and fastmana.
Just give Red volatile counters, for fuck's sake.

>>45321320
Shadowmoor was literally the last good thing in Mtg imho.

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>>45321728
>volatile counters
Stuff like pic related, right?
>Captcha is mountains

>>45321320
But anon, polls aren't accurate because only enfranchised players complete them.

>>45321767
That's a funny way to say Innistrad.

>>45321767
Nah man, I was a pretty big fan of Innistrad as well. They both hit similar, great notes. DA and AR were hot trash though.

>>45321787
Yeah. Or shit like
>Counter, Deal Damage to Yourself
>Counter Instant, controller flips cards until he hits another instant and casts that
>Counter Sorcery, cast Sorcery with same mana cost

Just counters that are volatile and all over the place, as opposed to the "safe, predictable and reliable" Blue Counters.

>>45321881
>Counter target spell. You and your opponent may each search their libraries for a spell with the same converted mana cost as the countered spell and cast it without paying the mana cost. Then shuffle your libraries.

>>45321767
>>45321871
Shadowmoor and Innistrad are best buddies, they have similar yet distinct Euro-horror flavor

Khans of Tarkir was good too but of course they ruined that completely in its own block

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>>45321881
Frankly I think that return target spell to its owner's hand should be red, it's really in the "find a temporary solution now, don't care about later" part of red color pie.

>>45322004
>Counter target Spell, it's controler gains the Mana back
Also sounds like fun
Or,
>Counter target spell, it's Controller gains R equal to the Converted Manacost
For the dickish-funny part of Red.

>The fuck am I supposed to do with RRRR? Can't cast Elves with that shit!

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>>45321968
Oh man we've got similar taste in MtG sets I guess. I'd put my top 5 as:

>Innistrad
>Shadowmoor
>Khans of Tarkir
>Coldsnap
>Onslaught

In no order.

>>45321320
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/138965359448/what-is-the-chance-of-a-grimm-fairy-tales-plane
We might get something close

>>45318809

Make them the "road to hell is paved with good intentions/greater good" people.

They see what the best result to any problem is and they take the fastest route possible to get there even at self sacrifice.

>>45322416
I thought Lorwyn was the fairy tale plane, unless I'm missing something

>>45322532
First when I wrote the post I wrote "RETURN TO LORWYN FUCKING CONFIRMED" but then I remember the "we don't care about the source material only about the pop culture understanding of the source material" so it might be a return to Lorwyn but it could also be a Disney plane

>>45322629
>Wizards makes Disney plane
>Like every other company that tries this, it's literally winter wonderland the block because of the cancer that is Frozen

>>45322629
Hell they could've easily make Return to Lorwyn not-Hobbit if that's the case.

>>45320074
You know, a group of undead showmen would be pretty damn fun.

>>45321968
>>45322061
>Innistrad
>Khans Tarkir&FRF Tarkir
>Zendikar+Worldwake for Adventurefun
>Mirrodin
>Homelands

>>45319415
We had blood artist for black.

>>45322061
>Shadowmoor/Eventide
>Lorwyn/Morningtide
>Innistrad
>New Phyrexia
>Khans of Tarkir

>>45322841
Yes, we have healers, old ladies, philosophers, politicians and house cats in white. We have scholars, archivists, librarians, scientists and pet birds in blue. We have artists, aristocrats, clergymen and executives in black. And we have farmers, musicians, poets, healers and majors in green.

It's way past time you realize rules about color pie and flavor representation only apply to red.

>>45323461
What else do we have in red then?

I seem to remember, the majority being soldiers, dragons and the like.

>>45320450
Ive always wanted to play a sith philosopher focused on the nature of freedom.

>>45323526

Occasionally red gets an assassin or rogue type character, usually a goblin tho so it's not your typical rogue flavor

If we go all the way back to portal 3 kingdoms, there's diaochan, artful beauty

>>45323526
As far as I can remember red has only gotten three creature cards that aren't explicitly violent.
>Diaochan, Artful Beauty
>Pia and Kiran Nalar
>Feldon of the Third Path

>>45323815

>pia and kiran not explicitly violent
>kamikaze bomber drones are their specialty

>>45318809
I was just thinking a mother seeking vengeance for her infant's death woumd make a great red/black Walker, but that doesn't scale up super well. Maybe the remnants of a once noble but now shattered empire, angry at the world for sniffing out its brightest beacon and willing to do anything to call the heinous act to attention.

>>45323815
A few way further back like Chandler, but there is totally a dearth of complex red characters.
Which is a pity, because the three cards mentioned are fairly fleshed out for magic characters. I mean Diaochan is a historical figure but P&K and Feldon both have their meaning and lore within the magic story.

>>45323651
>>45323815
Just checked it now. Out of those three, wasn´t Pia relatively recent?

I´m kinda at a loss, is that all we red players are good for?

>>45323876
There is also Daretti, the crippled artificer.
Bosh, the confused and lonesome golem.
Ben-Ben, a goblin hermit. Some other goblins also fit but on the other hand they're goblins.
Eron the Relentless is a rogue like Chandler, but he has some more explicit aggressiveness.
Homura is a monk, but there is some weird fluff stuff going on.
Jaya Ballard isn't necessarily violent. Taskmages seem to be used for many duties.

However, that's just a handful, and the majority of these characters come from years if not decades ago.

>>45320029

>water is blue and pirates travel through water ergo pirates are blue

Go die, please.

A good and sympathetic red and black faction would be a barbarian clan with a culture that values combat like the dothraki In game of thrones and doesn't fear death but embraces the circle of life

They would be in opposition to bant colored Malthusian cultists who believe that sentient life is basically a parasite growing on the Earth and they take it upon themselves to cleanse it, not because they think sentient life is evil, they just believe "scientifically" that it is better for the earth to have only plants and dumb animals that don't shake up their ecology like sentient life does

>>45324028

I think it's more that rogues are often blue and pirates are ocean rogues

>>45324111
Rogues are blue, black, and red.

>>45324111

Rogues are more black than they are blue since in Magic then usually manifest as thieves and assassins rather than just clever tricksters. That's a doubly stupid response because the type of rogue a pirate is would be the greedy, ruthless variety rather than the well educated, patient kind.

>>45320315
>water world

Let's brainstorm.

Factions:

>BR Pirates
>UG Merfolk
>UR Riggers
>WR Aven
>WG Raft People, a la Earthsea

Locales:

>"Oil" Slicks, floating pirate camps: B
>Sandbars, raft-communes: W
>Kelp Forests: G
>"Oil" platforms: R
>Literally anything: U

>>45324434

>two allied pairs and three enemy pairs

Maro would never greenlight it. You'd need to swap in something like UW armada, RG uncivilized island/raft-town brutes and UB cultists of Notcthulhu.

>>45324528
But I'm tired of only allied or only enemy colors.

>>45324629

And I'm tired of only blue getting good stack interaction. That doesn't mean we're ever going to see a world where either of our wishes come true.

>>45324629
I don't think there's even been a set with enemy color facitons only.

>>45324690

Eventide, two Ravnica sets, Apocalypse. I think there was one or two more.

>>45324747
no ravnica sets ever had exclusively enemy color pairs.

>>45324747
Eventide had G/W Elves and U/W Kithkin didn't it?

But also Lorwynn block disproves the "tribes have to be a cycle of allied colours" idea. It had G/W Kithkin, mono-R Elementals, G/B Elves, W/R Giants, U/W Merfolk, and 3-colour treefolk.

>>45324528
Then add more factions. That's all I could come up with.

>>45325235
>GW kithkin
>BR goblins
>BU faeries
>UW merfolk
they kinda cheated GR, elementals wer heavy in GR, but were 5-color

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>>45322717
>it's literally winter wonderland the block because of the cancer that is Frozen

Wizards beat Frozen to the punch by about 7 years.

>>45318809
a pseudo libertarian society which focuses on freedom and ambition greatness

>>45322532
Lorwyn is general celtic folklore. Fairy Tale Plane would probably have specific nods to Fairy Tale Tropes—big bad wolves, wicked witches, giants that live in the sky, lots of children getting kidnapped.

Probably the easiest way to make RB likable is to make them a very independent and freedom loving reactionary group to tyranny.

>>45326994
Ayn Rand pls go.

>>45326143
Yeah, they had 4/5 allied colour pairs, no way you can call Elementals R/G though the weird elementals were in all 5 colours equally and the Flamekin were mono red, but they also had 2 enemy colour pairs and a 3-colour wedge faction getting just as much support in the same sets. Point being, >>45324528 is full of shit

>>45327974
>>45326143

In fact I stand corrected, U and W both had more elementals in Lorwyn/Morningtide than G did.

>>45319439
Because that's part of the fantasy of those colors.

And in general, in fantasy lit, you have wizards and druids.

The cat I got nothing. He is magical, admittedly.

>>45324028
>>45324111
Pirate is already an established creature type. And every Pirate printed is blue.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3A%22pirate%22&v=card&s=cname

(Granted, they're a pretty old creature type, but new MtG hasn't backed down on the general tradition of ocean stuff being blue, so I don't imagine that would change if they ever decided to bring back pirates.

>>45329291
Because they're blue and sit on water. If there were to be an entire pirate faction on a water world, they're RB. Maro and friends have already gone over this

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>>45326994

>>45329345
Maybe specifically on a water world setting, where literally everything has the aquatic connection. By much the same token that shit like krakens and leviathans in such a setting might be green rather than the typical blue, standing in for the typical terrestrial beasties green normally gets.

But the dispute originated from the suggestion of pirates in general. Pirates in literally any context other than a water world would be blue.

>>45329495
Maybe they'd be part blue to justify the water bit, but pirate's are one of the least blue things ever written. "They're on a boat so they must be blue" is some of the worst writing that Wizards has put out, and like >>45320570 said, just justifies blue doing non-blue things.
Man, a bunch of small dudes swarming in, raping and looting everything within a 5 mile radius, burning everything without a care for science, study, or introspection sure are blue because they gots a boat, huh?

>>45329637
And by the same token, krakens and leviathans belong in green, nowhere near blue.

But they still keep being printed in blue.

I see where you're coming from, but the fact is that's just not the standard WotC actually follows in printing cards. The tradition of ocean shit belonging to blue is alive and well.

>>45320726
no it's some faggot from the edh general who forces his shitty meme everywhere

>>45322004
as a blue player that could totally be a uR mechanic with it showing up rarely in blue and commonly in red

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Conan(a RB hero) fights Thulsa Doom(a W Villain)

>>45329799
true, but they're usually mechanically blue. Blue is allowed slow big stompy things with weird effects late game. They're the things that the early game was stalling into after all.
Pirates wouldn't even play blue. They'd use red's entire suite of low cost attackers, swarming the field, possibly with haste, and lots of burn.

>>45329852
As a blue player though you know red is not allowed nice things

>>45324073
>doesn't fear death but embraces the circle of life
That sounds very explicitly green.

>>45327114
I could get behind that. Plus you can throw in some proper arthurian legend stuff in there too. Knights and castles, big bad dragons, Wizard looking wizards and talking allegory lions.

Honestly it would be nice to see something that breaks the generally dour aesthetic tone we've been having.

I wish Theros was a lot more Ray Harryhousen than it was.