It's a pretty classy looking thing to have on your hip. Had a friend who swore to god they would use rapiers to fight knights, because the think blade was perfect for slipping into the folds of full-plate.
Anyway, morons aside, rapiers are fine but a lot of fictional characters that use them suck.
>>45296414 He's got a rapier confused with an estoc. A rapier has a thin blade, but an estoc actually has a thick, diamond-shaped blade that's useless for cutting, but good at slipping between the gaps.
>>45296616 Nah, they're primarily a civilian/gentlemans duelling/defence weapon for solving problems when cunts annoy you. They where used and carried undoubtedly in various conflicts in small numbers as a side arm, but not as a primary battle weapon.
>>45296616 Military, at best as a sidearm in the late 1500s.
They were, however, extremely common as sidearms and duelling weapons for gentry, merchants, and anyone who wasn't especially poor - duelling was *big* back in those days, and there was a much greater need for self-defence in general than there is in a modern country.
>Rapiers are thrust only weapons that are lighter than their other one handed counterparts Where do game devs keep getting this shit? It takes the same amount of finesse to use a longsword as a rapier.
>>45296616 They were used in a fair number of real battles, yes. They were not designed as such, though. People would have them as part of their civilian life, and then when war came -- or they came to war -- they'd just take it with them. As >>45296638 said, they wouldn't be a primary weapon anyway.
>>45296685 Stabbing a dude for insulting your hat or being from the wrong side of town was not uncommon. I feel as though having grown into the sort of place it was on the backs of a long line of different warrior castes, Europe was essentially westabooing itself. Everyone was defending their honor because it was cool to do that.
>>45296685 Probably a bit of both. Sneaky vermin about your person sometimes needed to be put in their place with the only way they really understood- with 45" of carbon steel rammed through their vital organs... then you call the police.
Duels and honour where also a big thing for a long time, someone calls your wifeu a fat bitch, you stab the cunt.
>>45296398 Rape-ee-urr (as in something comparatively more rapey) but with the middle syllable de-emphasized to the point where it's almost indistinguishable from rape-yer (as in "I'm gonna rape yer mom").
>>45296685 It would be pretty possible to get mugged on the road and, at best, left with the shirt on your back. At worst you could definitely die.
I mean, this isn't "lol bright sparks in the dark" or whatever 3e D&D was going for, but it was big enough of a worry that people would take something with them. Plus, if you *can't* fight a duel, you're a pussy. You don't actually need to fight one -- but not being able to is pretty wimpy. >>45296700 It can mean both, because on the one hand aught means anything, but on the other hand it's a shortened version of naught. >>45296734 I wish.
>>45296751 Yep, people haven't really changed much over the years. We just don't stab each other nearly as much any more... or at least in any way considered elegant, but the chances of being punched for something trivial is about as good as it ever was.
I must need to crank the volume on that game then. Could've sworn the used "aught" for both meanings. Example >>45296495 this clearly only works with the "anything" meaning, but then finding empty loot caches would prompt a discouraged "There's aught here"
>>45296685 Yes and no Crime rates were tremendously higher in those days, but there's also the thing that the guard did not really solve crimes because of the limited methods of investigation, they just reported them and kept the peace.
They didn't have cars or necessarily horses either, so I'll take a while for them to show up during disturbance, which means you're gonna have to fend off attackers by yourself until they arrive.
>>45296774 It's actually a lot less likely, given that your social standing is no longer determined by how many duels you've fought.
I wish I had the old book on dueling, it had statistics on duels in Europe. France lost something like a forth of it's nobility in a decade to dueling at one point.
Had some great stories about famous duels as well. There was one where a local lord heard about two of his nobles starting a duel and sent people to stop him, who kept joining in on their own duels when they got there. Something like 4 duels had started before the whole thing got broken up.
>>45296777 "There is something here" They're triggering off something different. Read some books. "Aught" just means "positive but undefined." Same reason we say that we "aught" to do something when we can't or don't want to explain why.
>>45296805 The toll on things like the English officer corps was also fairly substantial, especially in things like the navy where people where half-fucked on rum most waking hours and took offence and most anything. Plus rum always puts most people in the mood for some violence.
>>45296838 It's the skin, I think. Their hair is completely different. They'd probably look pretty similar if Casca or Gizka used more hair products. Mercedes is also a bit more feminine in general, though.
>>45296856 Not just the shield buffs though. Great Cannon and Sigil were it's two big damage spells, so it had a trap sort of gameplay. And the shield buff setup was dealing damage defensively, building damage by defending rather than attacking.
>>45296764 Mercedes from Dragons Dogma, a very flawed but very good game about a Dragon that shows up in your village one day, screaming in Latin, who tears your heart out of your chest and magically keeps you alive because you were the only one not to run. Then you go on a quest to slay the Dragon. It's kind of like dark souls meets monster hunter with curayzeee combat abilities. Big problems with clarity and.polish, but the underlying mechanics are dick hardeningly good and the plot becomes surprisingly sophisticated towards the end
>>45296939 >>45296906 >Yea, but even first blood was often a rather fatal experience. Pre-Antibiotics, medical care involved 'leeches' and more bleeding of some sort and if you're really lucky it was only something like a drawing cut that could be stitched up and hopefully not infected.
Being stabbed and sliced up in the old timey days was really bad shit
>>45296841 Well, anatomically speaking, humanity has remained largely unchanged for over 2000 years for the most part.
The same problems people had during the age of the Roman empire, dark ages and renessaince will keep occurring in different forms for the same reasons.
This is why those who do not read history are doomed to repeat if. This is why those who shit on the bible because they disagree with the church are retards. The bible is a super old record of stories and because it's so old, the stories that hold relevance today allow you to grasp unchanged parts of human nature. This is why the old testament is in terms of historical value more important than new testament.
>>45296967 They did actually manage to learn how to treat cuts and stabs quite efficiently. After all, this had been an issue that needed to be addressed for the whole of recorded human history ever since folks started picking up pointy sticks.
>>45297052 Medieval surgeons were actually quite good at their jobs. John Arderne in the 14th century was right up there, willing to give you opium to dull the pain, charge a reasonable price, make you laugh while you're getting treated to help you deal, and cut out your anal fistulas with all the skill of a man who saw people get mutilated horribly in the Hundred Years War.
>>45297052 >>45297078 They did figure out that cleaning the wound does indeed help healing. Also applying alcohol to the wound helps it heal. They figured out that lancing a wound does keep a lot of people from dying. They also had a shitload of ways to stop bleeding. Lot of the modern medicine today is based on the same plants they used in those days.
The issue with the physicians of the day was not that they didn't have the methods to fix up the problem, but rather they could often get the wrong treatment for the wrong issue because they misdiagnosed.
They kept meticulous records on what works and what doesn't and tried to stick with what works.
>>45297045 Its fairly scary stuff though, like when the yanks decided to punch-on in their civil war, something like 650k just dead, another 450-500k wounded- but lived and probably another 400k that just ran away, died, got vaporised and no one knows where the fuck they went. On top of that, for every 3 that just got shot, blown up, stabbed and died as a result of conflict, about another 5 died from injuries, disease, malnutrition and all manner of otherwise preventable things.
I mean I look at my service in the military, we had a case of the squirts go through our unit because crazy fuckers where chasing people through irrigation channels and being grubs by not washing their hands well enough. But aside from that, we had some wounded which 9 times out of 10 where fine in a week or two- three at the most, including myself (twice) being blown up a bit.
So I dunno, they did what they could with what they knew, but it really wasn't enough prior to WW2, heck my grandfather fought all through the pacific, but for half his service he was either laid out with typhus or malaria. Crazy stuff.
>>45297141 The thing to remember that in the medieval mind, doctor and surgeon are basically entirely separate professions. Doctors prescribe leeches and examine your urine to determine what's wrong with you, with a few effective herbal remedies mixed in with the chaff. They weren't so effective, as they did prescribe prayer and make diagnoses by using astronomy.
Surgeons are the guys who cut your shit up when things are in the wrong place and sew your shit up when your insides are on the outside. These guys had better success and had some surprisingly sophisticated methods, though infection remained a problem and anatomical knowledge was fairly primitive.
It does help that the miasma theory of illness is actually a pretty decent early germ theory, since all the things that cause infections, like corpses and sewage, also happen to smell really badly.
>>45296764 >>45296974 It's because each color follows the traditional class triangle of melee combatant/fast nimble striker/magic-wielding backliner, and then each class itself implements different abilities through the weapon types.
>>45297155 Shot wounds were far more lethal than stabs and cuts because they did not have any tried and true methods of treating that yet. They kind of still are because tearing wounds don't heal so good.
>>45297198 Stabs aren't as-common in the mil, civvies tend to have quite a few of them go through their doors quite often as the knife is still a popular choice for miscreants and degenerates everywhere :) Cuts are still quite common, shrapnel, jumping on things, falling off things and all that will mess you up.
Shots are nastier, simply by benefit of technology as the gun is just a far more effective killing machine than it was 150years ago.
>>45296685 Oh yeah. If you walked around with money in those days you'd better have some ability to defend yourself. Either a servant or two that can break heads or a sword. Even if you weren't carrying money you might get kidnapped for ransom on the basis of looking wealthy.
Basically, it's like walking around the worst parts of Brazil.
>>45297693 Ye-Olde dagger sort of had a place too in defence when you just needed something for in close. Mostly useless when someone's waving a proper sword in your face as you'll just get stabbed to death about 3-4 times before closing the range if they know what they're doing, but better than being unarmed completely. Think that's more or less a major component to fighting with sharp objects is that you have to accept mentally that you're probably going to get hit at some point, its going to hurt, its going to be really messy with a lot of screaming. At least that's how they taught close combat in the military... give me a (modern) gun any day of the week!
The rapier itself wasn't completely useless in close like a lot of the sabres as well of the era, that big hilt was excellent for defence against sword strikes, but in a pinch up close you can punch the mass of it into someone's face and they're going to be very unhappy, the cross-guard can be rammed into eyeballs and you can use the pommel to pummel in a skull. Nasty, nasty stuff
Excepting that the Old Testament is essentially Hebrew propaganda. There was no Exodus. Solomon did not rule the entirety of the world, and a great deal of the Psalms are Hebrews being pissy that they were conquered, exiled, and scattered for not paying a tribute they agreed to pay.
>>45296333 >It is a terrible weapon for terrible people. But that's all weapons. If you wield one you've stepped from the realm of being a decent person into - at best - the one of being a necessary evil.
Fair enough, but there's better sources for Europeans. He is also the one who said those who don't read history are doomed to repeat it, and I would hardly call the Bible "history". Historical, certainly.
>>45298880 I couldn't remember if they had bumped that up to an 8 or not. God damn that's fantastic. Makes me want to roll up a Battle Commander (or whatever it is) archetype fighter with high Dex and Cha.
>>45297198 Really being stabbed and being shot works on the same principle if you read academic studies of wound lethality. The deeper and wider the wound channel, the more likely you are to die from any given placement.
Bullets go through bones easier and tend to make wider and deeper wound channels in soft tissue, so it stands to reason bullets are more dangerous than being stabbed on an individual basis.
>>45297876 Sword as primary weapon was a lot more common in China and Korea IIRC. Also horsemen, sometimes.
>>45298013 Knives or certain kinds of daggers are also useful tools, which explains why everybody and their mom had one 500 years ago.
>Think that's more or less a major component to fighting with sharp objects is that you have to accept mentally that you're probably going to get hit at some point
Depends on which sharp object. With knives incidental damage is almost unavoidable, but with larger weapons you can usually use leverage, timing, and distance to keep yourself safe.
>>45298790 You know, Silver's commentaries on the rapier largely predate the ornate hilts that tend to be on display in museums today. Once they get a good guard on them a lot of his criticisms aren't as solid.
Ironically, that anon's commentary doesn't agree with Silver's, though - Silver had a real problem with crazy rapierists running up on each other to grappling distance and both getting stabbed and dying.
>>45296789 Now, in the context I'm reading you sneak off with your wife, to some secluded pub that sell siphoned off gin from local baron's stock. Get hammered on that 28% alcohol content, then you and your fat wife (whom you must be very wealthy, or very miserly to feed so well) tag team some chamber maids.
>>45296886 Well, that was exactly what I was asking, did people forgo the reach of ye rapier, or other nimble tip slashing poking weapons? I recall reading that fights among seasoned duelists was more along the line of a wrestling/krav/juijitsu beat down with sharp objects thrown in, but I really don't know what to believe at this point.
>>45296967 It's worth noting that leeches were actually effective for treating certain ailments, since they consume tainted blood just like regular blood, and you want that shit out. It wasn't just wild guesswork.
Bleeding people, on the other hand, was based on the Four Humours theory of medicine, and was genuinely harmful.
>>45300243 Not a doctor, but only thing leeches still get used for are contusions and some kinds of plastic surgery where there's a risk of blood clots and stuff. Personally I hate the slimy little cunts, done too much hiking around in shitsville country to ever love them.
>>45300411 Trepanning, now there's a fun bit of old timey surgery!
>>45300479 Oh sure, we don't use leeches much now. We don't use maggots in medicine either. But back then both were some of the best options available, and were reasonably effective. People hear "we used to use slimy, crawly things in medicine all the time" and think that ancient doctors were universally quacks, not realizing that those treatments were as effective and sanitary as was possible at the time, and that doctors actually had some idea of what they were doing.
>>45300670 Maggots are making a comeback, whole stack of antibiotic resistant bacteria that tend to wreck tissue and can't be stopped with medicines. So literally the only way to get rid of the infected areas and dead skin is with a couple of hundred maggots nomm nomming their way through it.
>>45296333 But Red Mages aren't terrible. Just terribly stylish. >>45296371 Mace a Shit, Julien a Shit. Being on fire and grappling things superior, She-goat superior. >>45296632 What >>45296664 said. Or >>45296673 would be pretty funny, too. I always make sure that Selene moves into my house, regardless of who I romance(Usually she-goat). >>45296792 kek >>45297246 >Not separating and fighting the Elminators and Living Armors piecemeal but just jumping into the fray, even as a warrior. Now, what have we learned?
>>45301591 Yet it developped during times were plate armor was ''everywhere'' and when mail was only for covering gaps... when it was used. If you want to go for the gaps, a dagger is vastly superior to an elongated thrusting blade.
>>45301955 Fighter: Block and hit hard Strider: Mobility and hit hard since it can use some of its skill while climbing giants Mage: Nukes and nukes and nukes
Warrior: Giga weapon, so you can hit really hard, but no shield or second weapon Ranger: Strider, but Super Focus on GIANT BOW Sorcerer: Mage+, but you lose some of the core skills
Assassin: Riposte, Climbing, special skills for climb stabbing Mystic Knight: All the cool toys of Fighter(riposte) and Mage(cool elemental spells), with special toys(Sigils) Magick Archer: Strider, but with a Magic Spell Bow. Can also set itself on Fire.
>>45302383 We have pistols and stuff for shooting people in day to day contexts and they work quite well for that.
It doesn't mean a pistol is necessarily what you want to have when facing a guy using a tactical vest with ballistic plates. If anything you will be fucked.
But the pistol has it's place, as a weapon of self defense or attack, or as a sidearm in war.
Blades like this existed in such times and were effective at say, stabbing a guy when you were walking on the street or needed to duel, or whatever.
You would be at a disadvantage fishing for weak spots to stab with one against a guy swinging around a poleaxe or some other pole arm, because he's virtually invincible except for a few hard to reach spots he knows about and will defend very successfully, probably.
Even if you have the same armor, he can aim for those spots too, and also probably badly concuss you with blows to the head, or even outright penetrate thicker armor with a good clean blow/the right kind of point or geometry.
>>45303044 I would seriously doubt that rapier evolved from 15th century swords in order to defeat mail, that's just my point. Rapiers were an all-around, cut & thrust sword that was simply more focus on the thrust than sideswords, just like in the High Middle-Ages, you would have rather pointy or rather cut-centered swords.
No need to think I know nothing about it and no need to try to explain those things to me dear.
Expanding on >>45302945's explanations. Fighter: Has a sword skill for almost any occasion. Shield skills also provide utility, including letting an ally springboard off to get at an aerial foe, and blocking so good it hurts the enemy. Unblockables, fliers and magic tend to ruin it's day, though. Strider: Fast. Daggers good for slash n dashing, also some stuns/trips, and thievery. Bow skills for handling fliers and clustered foes. can vault off of shields, and double jump. Can buy special arrows to inflict badstats/explosive damage. Made of paper, and special arrows can get heavy. Mage: Has elemental weapon buffs, Blind and silence debuffs, one of the two de-buff removal spells and the only heal spell. Good attack spells as well. Can also levitate for a bit of time to cross big gaps. Unfortunately limited to 3 of the 5 elements in attack spells, squshy, and frequently the target of silence stuff.
Warrior: Shields. Are. For. Pussies. We BIG WEAPONS now. Think Barbarian. Can leave self open to attacks to charge one of the most devastating melee moves in the game. Limited skill slots, though, and no air game. Ranger: Longbow sniper. Seriously, if you can see it, you can hit it. And one skill gives you basically a scope, so you can see a lot. can also use special arrows. bare-bones dagger skills, more fragile and less mobile than Strider. Sorcerer: See that group of guys? Fuck them and everything around them. can cast METEORS and TORNADOES. Lightning shroud spell is the absolute tits, especially when you push it out onto someone clinging on a big beastie. Also, only spell to remove stat lowering debuffs and petrification. Looooong casting times, and no heal spell.
Assassin: Versatile as fuck. Swords, shields, daggers, shortbows. Nasty skills for all. Extra stabby when climbing on something, and can use special arrows. No magic growth when leveling, and some of the more devastating skills require cunt-hair precision timing. Magick Knight: Good combat skills, good spells. Magick Shield spells can hit enemies back for an element, or turn blocked damage into health. Self enchants, a spell that turns every melee swing into three seeking bolts when you hit the spell orb, and one that inflicts hits when foes step into the sigil. Combining them, while devastating, will also reduce your FPS to <20. Prone to being staggered/knocked down, and long casting times. Magick Archer: Seeking shots, multiple elemental magic arrow shots, the lightning one turns corridors into deathtraps, ice one hits one spot multiple times. Dagger spell to increase your magic, or you can set yourself on fire and jump on things' backs, then go full stabbymode to add more damage. Staff skills are eh. Long time between shots, and not as accurate as the other bow users. Also unable to use special arrows, as you basically shoot spells from your bow. Anything immune to magic is going to mock your bow skills.
>>45304335 Not Warrior. It's fun, but it's objectively the worst class in the game by a large margin. For certain enemies you're at the mercy of hoping you've trained your pawn properly and set the inclinations well and that the 2 pawns you picked up aren't retards.
>>45304709 Maybe I just need to retry it as the magic archer everyone loves so much. I went in as a warrior and felt pretty much like that. Just twiddling my thumbs at anything large and flying basically.
>>45301867 Except if you want a good character you have to level either as an assassin or as a sorcerer for hours and hours. Sure the classes are all functional, but if you level up as some of them you're gimping your stat pool.
I don't mind because honestly assassin is the best class and gets a lot of weapons.
>>45304918 I think Magic Archer and Magic Knight sit in the spot where they're both the best at killing a lot of the end game content. Even Assassin has a lot of trouble with Gorecyclopes and Death, and is dependent on the right mage pawn for Living Armor. Meanwhile, Magik Archer and Magik Knight are over here, laughing their asses off as they fucking murder Daimon in three minutes and then punk a living armor in 30 seconds just for shits and giggles.
>>45304601 It's an imperfect game, but it super, super picks up once you get into it. Dark Arisen is where the real meat is as well, both in story and challenge. Some of the shit in Bitterback Isle is designed to fuck you and your pawns, and it's not going to be nice about doing it.
>>45306904 But you don't. If you want to play a ranger you need to level an assassin for example. The difference is hundreds of points, which is the difference between being able to do damage to a creature or just doing nothing.
>>45308295 minmaxing gets you like +200 pts in your main stat The best bow in the game has 1000 pwr.
top tier longswords have anywhere from 1000-1700 pwr. You could play the entire game as a mage, switch to Warrior at lvl 200 and still deal reasonable damage with top tier equipment. the +200 points you got from minmaxing will mean the difference between killing an enemy in 10 attacks instead of 11. If you're a magic user you're already dealing fuckloads of damage by hitting enemies with elements they are weak to
source: I played warrior for roughly 50% of the game then switched to Mystic Knight and could stunlock/gib Annihilators with magic seal (or whatever the ability is called that places magic traps on the ground)
>>45308660 Of course it's not a big deal at lvl200 with the best equipment. When you're past lvl100 it doesn't matter anymore. But it does matter a lot when you're lower level in BBI for example.
The thing is that you're replacing proper leveling with grinding to get to a higher level. I mean, sure, I could have taken a lvl30 ranger instead of a lvl20 assassin into BBI, but that would have been boring.
>>45304709 Late to the party, but the Warrior's jumping Light Attack is actually one of the best aerial attacks in the game. It knocks down, hits above, in front, to the side, and below you and it does fucking warrior damage. As a Warrior, you should be doing tons of jumping attacks.
>>45308825 Well, first of all, neither a low ranger or a low assassin are going to do shit to a wraith anyways, so I feel to see what your point is here
Furthermore, we're talking about having to level Assassin to actually be able to do anything with a Ranger, and having to grind to do it. If you're using low level as an example of this, why are you talking about some pretty fucking high level enemies?
>>45308825 haha, what? Dude, I fucking power-level in BBI and I don't have a problem with that shit. Are you playing hard mode or something? If so, that could be it. Otherwise a Holy Enchant is usually enough to one-shot a wraith.
>>45301591 You are fucking high as fuck. It was developed well after mail had left the fucking building as the major component of any large amount of armor. It was one of the finest weapons of it's age, and even today, if we fought regularly at such ranges, would be the choice of any reasonable melee enthusiast. Reach, speed, a simple hard to defeat fighting style based on reaction times and skill rather then brute force. It had it all. Plate defeated it, but plate was easily defeated by the noble's secondary weapon, the pistol. Assuming of course the pistol didn't blow up in your hand. The smart thing against this weapons was a plate breastplate, to cover vital areas and a cloak with leather gloves to foil the weapon long enough for your own weapon to get to a major artery. 3/4 of inch wound and the man was dead.
>>45309197 >so I feel to see what your point is here It was a demonstration that elemental damage on martials doesn't do shit. Using a wraith for it is useful because it's unambiguous, as wraiths are also immune to physical, so you can tell exactly what's going on.
But the same thing is happening with elemental damage on other creatures, you just don't see it as easily because the physical damage is mixed in.
>>45309216 It only works if you're a sorcerer. Otherwise a wraith is undamageable by a pure martial stat character regardless of which level they are or what kind of enchantment they have on their weapon. The only way you can kill a wraith with something like an assassin is if you wait for it to possess one of your pawns and then getone hit it, and wait again, which takes ages unless you bring throwblasts which ignore normal damage rules. Otherwise you're stuck waiting for your caster pawns to slowly whittle them down.
>>45309608 good thing you get 3 other characters to bring with you to make up for the fact you're playing a pure melee.
There's like 1 spot in the game with exclusively wraith spawns right? You're always going to be doing something as pure physical, hell even when fighting possessed armors you use the magic enchant on your weapon to keep them stunlocked so your casters can nuke.
>>45309608 Only Wraiths have resistances high enough that martial enhanced weapons don't get bonus damage.
And even then, this is doing nothing to prove that you have to level assassin to make a ranger work. Show me an example where an assassin buffed Ranger at low levels has a truly significant advantage over a pure ranger build.
Even in the example you provided, the difference between a level 20 assassin and level 20 ranger is only 20 points of strength, which has almost zero effect on damage.
>>45310747 >Show me an example where an assassin buffed Ranger at low levels has a truly significant advantage over a pure ranger build. Any situation where he needed that much more damage to beat the enemy's defense. It happens to all sorts of enemies there.
>>45298809 Why is it evil to take someones life if it is to save another, even your own? If you take a life to save your own, that's just nature taking it's course. If you take a life to protect someone else's, that is heroism. If you take the life of an innocent who did you no wrong, that is evil.
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