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How could you fix Age of Sigmar?
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How could you fix Age of Sigmar?

Is it even possible?
>>
The core idea of the game is generally sound, I think.

One of the biggest hurdles of getting people into a wargame is always that moment where they go "I want to play this and this and this" and you have to explain to them that such and such models don't work together, such and such models can only be taken so many times, etc, etc, etc.

The "bring anything you got" idea has merit. It means balance is shot to hell, more or less, so you'd really just focus on making sure certain things weren't too insane.

What would be more important, I think, is having a solid game in the rules, something that's interesting and fun. This is where AoS has failed, more than anything else: people will forgive a hell of a lot so long as the game has good, fun rules.

So the answer is just to revamp the entire combat system so that it's actually interesting and fun to play, and you've pretty much solved 90% of AoS's problems.
>>
>>45272644
I thought sanguinary guard had jump packs.
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>>45272644
It doesn't need to be fixed because it isn't broken. If you think it needs to be fixed, it just isn't the game for you.

WHFB is not coming back, it is dead. This game is here to stay, no matter how much of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth it incites from the old guard.
>>
>>45272644
Simple.

Dollar value=Points Cost.

Construct equal cost armies.

Suddenly the game makes sense and is vaguely balanced.
>>
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Age of Sigmar could work fine. All it needs is some standard way of determining "fair" pairings (i.e. point costs), and removing the dumb joke rules. That's it.

It won't be a replacement for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and it is not intended to be. Age of Sigmar is designed for very simple quick skirmish games, not strategic mass battles. Even if one does not like Age of Sigmar, it is easy to see its purpose and target audience, and it can be a "good game" for those people: the kind that just want a mindless, short game and opportunities to make cheesy one-liners. For those that like that sort of thing, more power to them.

Indeed, I think the best way to improve Age of Sigmar is not by changing Age of Sigmar, but by providing an alternative that is like the old Warhammer setting and game. Warhammer is cool in a different way than Age of Sigmar: it was a world with otherworldly monsters battling with gritty, down-to-earth realistic heroes. In addition, Warhammer was fun for the tactical decisions and complex rules. I do not hate Age of Sigmar. It is merely not for me.
>>
I'm going to skip over the rules and say what it needs is better background and models.

There's a serious lack of characters to identify with and no feel of a complete setting. It's really just a very obvious excuse for the various factions to exist and fight each other. Everyone you actually see is some kind of mutant angel-ghost super soldier. There's no sense that they have lives which we can imagine living. There's no ordinary people you can empathise with or feel like you are fighting for. You need some grubby peasants.

As for the models, the only advice I can really give is to stop making them look like shit. Hire designers with a vague grasp of anatomy and sane proportions. Don't cover everything with detail which is impossible to paint well and spiky bits which inevitably break off.
>>
>>45272857
>Dollar value=Points Cost.
>There's a sale.
>>
>>45272918
You go by MSRP obviously.
>>
>>45272869

I would like to add that I do not ask for GW to make the alternative setting. They are not Marvel or DC; maintaining multiple parallel fantasy universes would confuse their brand. What GW needs is a credible competitor to pick up what they dropped off.
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>>45272954
The only competitor that has tried that they have is mantic. Although mantic has Alessio Cavatore, they focus too much on the generic.
>>
I was never nearly as interested in WH over 40K, but I definitely liked quite a bit of its literature.

Age of Sigmar is completely, entirely unappealing to me. It's not even Fantasy anymore; it's crazy magic-science High Fantasy on ecstasy. Hell, those Stormwhatevers really are pretty much Viking Space Marines, only not in the Space Wolves way.

I really, firmly believe they fucked up big time.
>>
>>45272836
>WHFB is not coming back, it is dead
Probably true.
>This game is here to stay
Doubtful. Interest seems to have died very quickly and I suspect Geedubs won't continue trying to sustain it for long.
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>>45273039
>Alessio Cavatore
And Rick Priestley
>>
>>45272644
>reskin 7th edition with some work on rules as AoS second edition+some skirmish and scenarios rules
>bring back the old army books while solving internal balance and power creep.
>use the new art for the army books and rulebook.
>make rules for the "new factions" and models
>use round bases and sell the old "war of the ring" bases for ranks like in the old hammer
>act ask if nothing happened

Done
>>
>>45273800

>They're stuck with that Sigmarine Statue on their front lawn, an eternal testament to their shame.
>>
>>45272644
Thinking of picking dome up; chucking some wrist mounted storm bolters and using them as !notgreyknights but one of the lost legions.
>>
>>45272644
>Is it even possible?

nop
>>
>>45272836
>This game is here to stay, no matter how much of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth it incites from the old guard.

given that it is doing wayn worse than fantasy which was axed because it wasn't doing enough, dont't bet your house on it mate
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>>45272644
>fix Rage of Sigsmugs
>instead of getting all those models for your Adeptus Custodes army

Why fix a wonderful mistake?
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>>45272644
We alreay had this discussion a lot of times, and I'm getting pretty tired of repeating the same points.

It needs to better define its background and fluff so to motivate people to get actually interested in armies. It needs to either improve design quality or dramatically lower costs, because "muh premium hobby miniatures" suck and lack hobby interest for most fantasy fans anyway.
It needs an actual rules system that features points cost, interaction between unit values that go beyond "I damage anything on X+, you resist anything on Y+ and can take Z damage", some rules that encourage tactical decisions regardin terrain, positioning and such shit ... to put it shortly, it needs an actually decent skirmish ruleset.
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>>45275473
>hobby interest

GW is a collectable figurine company now, the hobby aspect merely cuts down their manufacturing costs.
>>
>>45272644
Rules. This game needs rules and the models need to actually interact which each others. Just rules for a skirmish game, not even grand battles like warhammer was.
Give us rules for Slaanesh' sake. And now that we are at this, give us back Slaanesh as well.
>>
>>45272753
Muh negro
>>
>>45272710
you're an idiot.
nope, no merit just money hungermonguers.
No the lack of solid rules is just an consequence of the rest.
Here you start making sense, yes they should firstly and foremost fix the combat system.
>>
>>45273885
Priestly's with Warlord, mate.
But then again, so is Cavatore's Bolt Action.
>>
>>45272710
>The "bring anything you got" idea has merit. It means balance is shot to hell, more or less, so you'd really just focus on making sure certain things weren't too insane.

Why can't you people get that THAT is not how you do it?
>>
The fundamental problem is AoS doesn't exist to be a wargame.

It exists to be an excuse for modelers to get together and show their mini's off. It's a side project. A distraction. A justification to sell paints and plastic, nothing more. GW doesn't care for it's merits as a game, so little to no thought was put into it.

As for why? Because they're chasing sales data. Their market research says this this and this sells, so they put out this this and this.

They are running themselves like a TOY company, not a hobby company. The fact that YOU have to paint and assemble the action figures is just icing on the cake.
>>
>>45272644
I would have gone full Fallout: Magic Edition.

The forces of Order and the forces of Chaos got together with the two main undead factions trying to exterminate each other and having their own little brawl.

Eventually the polar reality holes assplode due to combined assault of humans, lizards and elves.

Magical shockwaves fuck everything magic up to some extent. Warpstone moon shatters and drops warpstone everywhere.

Elven homeland sinks when the magic sink in the middle implodes. All that's left of Ulthuan is some nice islands and good fishing ground. Whats left of the High Elves live in fishing villages.

The dark realm of Naggaroth got shanked by a surprise vampire army from the undead coast to the south as well as angry lizards. The a suspiciously well coordinated mass slave uprising.

Naggaroth is now a very loosely allied collection of city states and fortified towns with a very fluid social order. Former slaves of both human and elven stock make up the population.

The lizard men only have 2 or 3 cities left. All of the 2nd and 3rd generation Slaan are dead as are most of the 4th and 5th. Elven homeland sinking caused a massive wave that destroyed everything they had on the coasts.

Dorfs have only one of their great fortresses left.

They now mostly dwell in places of mild magical contamination because no other sane person contests them.

There is no Empire or Kislev or Bretonia left now. All those old names died in the final days of the war, of interest only to historians and scavengers. Mankind now lives predominantly along the river banks. Primeval forest reclaimed most of the Old World. Some new settlements have been built or reclaimed along the coast after the great wave wrecked them.

Wood elves are the most prosperous of the sane people. The great ward stones that contained their little forest exploded when the chaos gates assploded and it spread and spread and spread all the way to the coast.
>>
Really, the system itself isn't horrible, it's just let down by the lack of a point system - none of the proposed systems *really* work all that well, be it counting wounds, warscrolls or price in actual cash.
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>>45276103
Of the halflings no sign now remains. The dwarfs once made an expedition to the Moot but found only an enormous crater and a lot of warpstone fragments.

It looked like the whole place got impacted and the survivors picked off by the roaving bands of beastmen.

Although wood elves are the most numerous and prosperous of the sane people to survive they are no uncontested.

The two biggest factions are beastmen and orcs. They are locked in a state of total war with each other and just as well. If either side was victorious or directed their malice outwards they would easily drive whats left of men and dwarfs and elves into extinction. The Wood Elves avoid them when they can, divert them away from settlements and lure them into each other.

The Skaven did not do so well when the magic went insane. Being so saturated with chaos already the shockwaves coming from the poles pushed the vast majority of the species over the edge into hairy chaos spawn like things.

No less numerous, capable of breeding quickly, extremely dangerous but thankfully almost totally mindless and tend to turn on each other when hungry, hurt or just bored.

The Skaven that survived intact integrated into the hordes of the beastmen, usually as cannon fodder disposable bodies but the ones steeped in cruel cunning are the shadowy advisors behind every great monster. They have a similar deal going with the orcs and both are to an extent proxy armies for the Skaven inter clan bickering.

The marauders of the far north are cut off from their dark gods when the north pole gate closed. On the whole nothing changed all that much. Had their been even one semi-intact nation left to oppose them they would have been crushed. But their was not and the people of what was once Kislev and the Empire felt their wroth.
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>>45276217
Demons left behind suddenly found themselves bereft of power and slowly bleeding away and fading. To survive as anything but a wispy voice on the breeze they no longer maintain a physical form but instead possess and buff mortal champions, either leaders of warbands or those they wish to make so.

Not sure what should become of the undead factions.
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>>45272644
You can't fix AoS because it isn't broken.
Get used to it pleb. You shall purchase what we sell you.
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>>45274497
you poor scrub.
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>>45275822
There's literally a text from Priestley in the KoW 2nd ed rulebook.

Granted, it's the preface.
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>>45276347
You can't fix AOS because it's not broken - it's just shit, there's nothing to save.
You can try to fix its diehard fans, but it's hardly worth it.
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>>45275342
You don't know what is going to happen. Yet.
Let me tell you what's on the grapevine:
next version of 40k changes the rules to be 100% compatible with AoS.

From what I've heard, there might even be crossover, so you can use models from either universe.

Why? because 40k is going to pick up AoS through sales.
>>
>>45276375
T_T

Your tears are delicious
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>>45276384
Or, as is more likely, both are going to crash hard because mixing delicious custard with damp turd does not make the turd custard. It makes the custard shit.
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I wouldn't

The failure of AoS and GW's fantasy lines in general is the greatest thing to happen to fantasy wargaming.
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>>45276396
My tears?
I didn't even play WHFB, or any other GW game. This whole thing has brought me nothing but laughter.
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>>45276375
Except there are no diehard fans, just some GW shills

Nobody could be retarded enough to defend such a shit game except maybe some 10-12yro's who just discovered tabletop gaming
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>>45276403
The old toxic community isn't wanted.
GW wants fresh new players that enjoy fun.
The kids that enjoy AoS will also like it when they can play stormcast liberators versus space marines.

The fyre slayers sold really well, the chaos products are doing fine, there are good expectations for the upcoming releases.

So stay sour, it has no effect on GW.
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>>45272644
I wouldn't make the shitty huge pauldrons gag bleed over into a setting with a good aesthetic.
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>>45276494
So when will "Games Workshop" be officially renamed "Ugly Toys Kindergarten" for good? It's just a formality by now.
>>
Every time I see people discuss AoS online it's always negative. I'm in the minority.

AoS is good. I used to play all the miniatures games six years ago. I went to tournaments for everything and had a painted army for at least seven different games. I didn't have a fantasy army, because movement trays and wheeling is gay. I don't play historicals either though, so maybe that wasn't my cup of tea. But the story was awesome. The background and fluff had me wanting to play vampires but the rules turned me off. AoS simplifies the rule system so anyone can pick this game up and play with me. I hang out with a lot of board gamers and they can pick up AoS with a simple walk through and glance at the rules. And they have fun! Previoulsy this took hours and an investment in a 40$+ rule book and a 20$+ rule book.

My real beef is throwing the setting away. But, in my mind, I think it will play out that existence is cyclical. The world is created by slaan using powerful life magic and realmgates to get to the new world. Others start escaping the escalating war in the planes to the new material world. Old world discovers new world. I don't know though. If GW doesn't fix the setting in an edition, that's a problem.
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>>45272896

No one is ever wanted to identify with cousins unless it's some sort of romance novel or bodice ripper where the plane yet beautiful peasant girl has a grumpy noble man fall madly in love with her but he can't admit it because polite society.

Peasants only exist so characters are exceptions to them not as the norm that people will engage and identify with. No one wants to be a fucking peasant.
>>
There's nothing really redeemable in AoS desu.
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>>45272644

Add point values and encourage official campaigns and tournaments.

Done.
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>>45276763
>AoS is good. I used to play all the miniatures games six years ago.
>I don't play historicals
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>>45276763
This. It's only the beginning. You can't build a setting fully fleshed out in a day.
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>>45276805
You still have an incredibly plain, boring and shallow game. You have achieved playability but not given anyone interested in gameplay an actual reason to play it.
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>>45275921

>Their market research says this this and this sells, so they put out this this and this.

During a shareholder meeting they bragged about not doing any market research so I sincerely doubt that is their motivation.
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>>45276763
I have some friends whow eren't into minis at all and they found out about AoS. They bought the starter set and all.

Then they saw me playing KoW and they switched to it instantly. Mind you, a game of KoW with 200 minis on the table is faster and more interesting than a game of AoS with one fifth of that amount. Good thing sigmarines make decent elohi.
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>>45276838

Nah it's pretty clever in many regards, just not the lack of points or 'silly character rules'. Monster profiles becoming progressively worse as they take damage is great and I wish that is how vehicles and monstrous creatures worked in Warhammer 40000.

Streamlining to hit, wound, etc so it's all on the profile along with any special rules they have is also nice and undercuts a lot of table referencing and bickering about USR interpretations.

If they adapted this stuff to Warhammer 40,000 I would be okay with it as long as they kept the fucking points values.
>>
>>45272644
Yeah it's possible. The setting is young, and not much has been done with it yet. Just do a soft relaunch. Use a new, better ruleset to justify it.

Hire writers specifically to create the setting and people specifically to create the game. Ones that have experience doing so. Don't just rely on the same room of writers you use to write blurbs for new Tau robots, that's obviously fucking dumb. You don't put Bret Ratner in the directors chair if you want a billion dollar franchise.

Make the product familiar in shape and distinct in detail. Directly copying whats successful is not a winning strategy, because if it's too similar people will just stick with what they've got. Batman and Spiderman are both people who wear stupid costumes and batter animal-themed criminals, but all the little details are different so they aren't considered the same.

Finally, give people something to look for. Some end goal or mystery that's open-ended but teases a specific answer. Bake them into the whole thing. Don't just tell people shit and expect them to care.
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>>45276897

So basically they need to run some campaigns?
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>>45276888
>undercuts a lot of table referencing
What. Has anyone ever really needed to check the table to determine a To Hit and To Wound value?
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>>45276831
True, but it doesn't matter when the setting is shit and hard to get into. If I'm getting into 40k I can get the BRB and have an overview of the setting, major factions, major places, major characters, etc. Basically the fluff starter kit. I know enough about the universe to get invested in it and can decide where to expand to.

If I'm getting into AoS I can get the main book, but the fluff's still a work in progress, right? So to actually know enough of the fluff to get invested in it, I need to buy multiple $75 campaign books.

The other issue is, even if their fluff is improving they have no good way to get that fluff out there to potential new players. 40k has the benefit of decades of brand recognition. Even if you've never played the game, if you play tabletop minis games of RPGs or video games, you probably have some awareness of the "40k story" from its various media and can jump right in. AoS doesn't have that benefit, and the little bit you can gleam from reading product descriptions of GW's website isn't too enticing. They'd need some kind of multimedia blitz to overcome this, but all the supplementary stuff (aside from BL books and audio dramas) are all still using the Warhammer fantasy fluff. FFG doesn't have even one Age of Sigmar product, but still sells WFRP and Chaos in the Old World, and every non 40k video game that has come our or is planned to come out recently are based on warhammer fantasy. Is there even one AoS game in the works?
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Remove Horned Rat and bring back Slaanesh.
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>>45276396
>>>/reddit/
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>>45278140
>>
>>45276422
then why are you here exactly?
>>
>>45278335
Because this is /tg/, not /gw/, turbofucker.
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>>45272644
Turning WHFB into a skirmish game was a good move.

The game warhammer turned into towards the last 15 years or so of it's life was really, really not a good fit for 28mm. Nobody who's not a masochist wants to get into a game where they have to buy 2 boxes of plastic dudes, a blister of command figures, clean, assemble and paint all of that, only to make 1 shitty unit of spearmen for their army that doesn't even take up 1/10 of the points you need. Like why the hell would you do that? That's insane. Which is why people stopped getting into whfb when 40k had such a low point of entry compared to it.

So. If you want 28mm minis, a mass battles game between ranked units is probably the most retarded option. Those kinds of games are both way, way better (because of the scale, the manouvering the epic look) for 6 or 10mm miniatures.

What was NOT a good move was scrapping a well-beloved setting and turning it into World of Warhammercraft.

They should have just said "Sorry guys, but WHFB is not really working for us as a commercial game any more, we done fucked up" and made some kind of Mordheim or dungeoncrawler out of warhammer instead.
Or even better, brought back Warmaster in plastic and included a 28MM scale miniature in every box of 10mm guys for painting and collecting. Hell, even scaling down the battles and making something more along the lines of the actually very good LoTR wargame out of it would have been a good move.

But scrapping the warhammer world in order to make a not-game like AoS just feels like a huge overreaction and the only thing I can imagine that lets it make sense to me was if WHFB was losing them even more money than we think it was, and we already think it was pretty damn bad considering a lot of stores made less on whfb than it made on glue and paint towards the end.
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>>45276788
I think it's less about the peasants and more the fact that, aside from the legacy armies, there's nothing really human-ish out there.
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>>45276842
No one does shit without market research. That is not something you brag about. Ever. If that is in fact the case, and not hyperbole, then management is so incompetent as to be record setting and the only reason they haven't been No-Confidenced is either a lack of controlling shares outside the management or they're so niche no one cares.
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>>45278806
GW always operates as though they still have no competition. They didn't have to do market research when they were literally the only game in town, and they're notoriously slow to change.
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>>45276788
>Identify with

I think this argument is incredibly over-used in gaming. In literature, where you're pretty much spending half a book inside someone's head, then yes, it's important that you can, if not identify with him/her, at least understand them somehow and put their actions into context.

But in fucking warhammer? Shit.
The most popular warhammer 40k faction is the superhuman space marines, more or less completely devoid of humanizing features. Unless you read shitty black library novels, most warhammer 40 000 player barely have any clue about what space marines eat, if they fuck, if they have hobbies besides tinkering with their bolters and who does their laundry.

For the majority of players, they only exist as the over the top stormtroopers on sci-fi steroids we see in the artwork, they are incredibly inhuman to most players. And they fucking love them.

"I need to identify with the characters!" is bs, we just need to think they are cool. Otherwise space marines and spiky space marines wouldn't be so popular even among people who have very little clue about the Horus Heresy and who don't really pay too much attention to the books unless they have rules in them.

In fact, you can make the argument that the most faceless and blank characters can be appealing because they let you fill in the blanks yourself, or because their personality doesn't drown out your other impressions of the setting they occupy.
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>>45272836

>Tis but a feature
>>
I'd use the PPC comp. Oh wait, that already exists.

OP go play KoW with the rest of the faggots. We're fine with you fucking off from GW.

Just shut the fuck up and do it already. Go away.
>>
Points system

Get rid of the stupid pretend to ride a horse rules

Expand the rules to a playable level

Storm casts externals are angelic and not space marines

Get rid of stupid names like steam head duradins

Bring back slaanesh

Expand fluff
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>>45278869

Their market share has gone down something like 6% in the last 10 years. They still control more than 80% of the market.

GW ain't worried.
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The first thing I'd do is change the prices. A small model-count skirmish game is good and all, but not when 10 models are $100.
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>>45276788
>No one wants to be a fucking peasant.
As a WFRP player: Suck my dick.
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>>45272836
Well let's see how total war Warhammer sells
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>>45278871

your typical AoS supporter ladies and gentlemen, boring and bland is good
>>
It really is sad to see how the only argument AOS defenders have is "WHFB was not that good either".

Why won't you admit you've spent time and money in a lackluster game? It's not like we can respect you any less anyhow.

>>45279233
>>45276831
>>45276494
>>45276396
>>45276347

>Sure the shill is strong in you
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>>45279552

You are the one in an AoS thread when you don't play AoS. I literally cannot think of anything more pathetic than that.
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>>45279562
This isn't an AoS thread tho, it's a thread about fixing AoS.
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>>45279562
>How could you fix Age of Sigmar?

>Is it even possible?

Well, you are the one defending AOS as perfect in a thread based on the premise it has to be fixed.
>>
>>45279620

The game doesn't need 'fixing.'

It just needs comp. Like EVERY edition of Warhammer.

Go find something new to do with your time. You're making me feel sorry for you.
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>>45279670
No, it needs a complete rules overhaul. Who's fucking idea was static To Hit numbers?
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>>45279670
>You are the one in an AoS thread when you don't play AoS. I literally cannot think of anything more pathetic than that.
If this is your opinion, why are you posting in this thread?
>I literally cannot think of anything more pathetic than that.
>>
>>45279698

Rick Priestly.

And they're still effected by cover. Cover now also affects close combat.

Maybe read the rules before your criticize them.
>>
Add points
Add a shit ton more spells
Add generic magic items

Done
>>
>>45279720
>Rick Priestly
Ah yeah, what? He doesn't work for GW anymore.
>>
Somewhat related to the Space Puppies,

did you fellows see the Leman Russ model presented at the HH Weekend today?
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>>45279720
>Cover now also affects close combat
How does that even make sense?
>>
>>45279780
How does anything that person said until now make any sense? It's either a troll or the cheapest shill GW could afford.
>>
>>45279780
Hide behind a rock I guess
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>>45279852
It's probably that, yeah.

>>45279858
Combat should be abstract, but not THAT abstract.
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>>45279756

Durr he was developing the new edition of Warhammer years ago. It had 'fixed' to hit rolls.
Much like Kings of War does now.

>>45279780

Same way it does in Kings of War.

Holy shit do you guys even war game or do you literally just sit online all day bitching about games you don't even fucking play?
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>>45279917
>Durr he was developing the new edition of Warhammer years ago. It had 'fixed' to hit rolls.
And that has any bearing on AoS how?
And who was talking about Kings of War? Is that what GW is telling you to deface now?
>>
Guys, guys, KoW is a nice game. It doesn't deserve to be compared with AoS, that's just mean and uncalled for.
>>
>>45279917
>Durr he was developing the new edition of Warhammer years ago. It had 'fixed' to hit rolls
Proof?
>>
Remember folks, Starmcast are huge Space Marine rip-offs, even going as far as stealing the name of a Space Marine Chapter (Knights Excelsior).
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>>45279974
>mean and uncalled for

I think that should be Games Workshops motto.
>>
>>45280119
Not "Buy it now because it could always get worse"?
>>
>>45279974
This. It's both strategic and fast to play.
>>
>>45280175
>Now that I think of it it's kind of brilliant
>>
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>>45280175
It's funny because it's true
>>
>>45272710
The other big hurdle is when they ask how to use their models and you drop the 9" of rulebooks on the table
>>
>>45272710
>>45280320
Except that when Warhammer was on top it was with a 300-pages rulebook and strict army comp rules.

And warhammer failed solely when those comps and rules coupled with price hikes meant you needed to spend 80€ for a basic unit.
>>
>>45280430
As a game it failed at that point. As a franchise, it started failing as GW failed to keep up with all the factions and cash in considering how the majority of the players were 'veterans' which consequently brought very little. The obvious response would have been to lower the entry price with cheap starter sets and a focus on smaller games, but of course GW couldn't do the math.
>So what's wrong with doing that now with AOS?
They scrapped a well-established franchise in hope to force everyone to buy a brand new army, and managing to alienate most of the old playerbase that way. Also they did so with an idiotic ruleset.
>>
>>45280639
Not to mention the AoS prices. It's $50 for 5 Liberators. That's $50 for 5 basic guys.
>>
>>45272644
All AOS really needs is a point/ balance system, then it'll be fine
>>
>>45276384
Grapevine's full of horseshit - GW could afford to experiment on WHFB, it can't afford to do so on 40K - particularly after AoS tanked.
>>
>>45276494
PP troll detected.
>>
>>45280927
It needs more than that. The game is seriously lacking in a selling point even with a point system.

>warmahordes: combo based play built around resources and dice manipulation
>infinity: something's always happening. Great minis. Tactical terrain usage
>x wing: license draw. Really precise.
Etc etc.

AOS as a game has no niche.
>>
>>45281592
I'd go as far and say Frostgrave got a better niche as Ye Olde School Fantasy than AoS.
>>
>>45276494

This. WHFB players were such whiny bitches that GW decided they didn't want them any more.

Good fucking riddance.
>>
>>45276872

KoW is great until you figure it out. Then it's a boring grind.
>>
>>45272869
>the dumb joke rules
Those were only given to WHFB armies, as a goodbye joke, easter-egg, something that they have fun designing.
No new armies have it or will have it.
>>
>>45272857
>guy with the most expensive army wins

So your solution to save AoS is to turn it into Magic?
>>
>>45282093
It's a successful model and at this point why the fuck not try something. It's hard to get worse
>>
>>45281664

Frostgrave is essentially Mordheim. Of course, in Mordheim, teams with a Wizard were pretty OP is the opposing team didn't have one, but in Frostgrave, everyone has a wizard as team lead standard.
>>
>>45281956
t. shill
>>
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>>45274518
>>
>>45281979
didn't one on the new fyre heroes have one?
>>
>>45276494

>The fyre slayers sold really well

How do you know?
>>
>>45276494
>The fyre slayers sold really well.

Source?
>>
>>45282432
Read them all.
>Explosive Rage: It takes very little to
draw the ire of a Runeson, and they can
go from smouldering contemplation to
blazing anger in a heartbeat. In the hero
phase, pick an enemy unit that is visible to
the Runeson to be the subject of his latest
outburst of wrath and rage. Until your
next hero phase, you can re-roll hit rolls
of 1 when the Runeson attacks that unit.
In addition, if a battleshock test is made
for the unit before your next hero phase,
add 1 to the result of the dice roll if you
can deliver a suitably characterful insult
or furious put-down (aimed at the unit in
question, of course – not your opponent!).
I take it back. There are still joke rules. -.-
>>
AoS is doing fine

Its a new game so it may take time to take off
But the only way is up
>>
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>>45282972

>But the only way is up
>>
>>45282972
>doing fine
Starter sets going for something like 40% off of MSRP is not "doing fine", nor is massive backlash.
>>
>>45283068
Oh yeah, I forgot the proof (this is actually half-off, roughly).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CITADEL-GAMES-WORKSHOP-WARHAMMER-AGE-OF-SIGMAR-STARTER-SET-SEALED-/272118184452?hash=item3f5b81fa04:g:RI8AAOSw9mFWMVGn

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Starter-Set-Sealed-/121861737340?hash=item1c5f868b7c:g:OlwAAOSwSdZWcZrR
>>
>>45283068
The two shops that sell it in my city have it out at half price, and still can't get rid of them. It has been a massive flop here, and there was a rather active WHFB community - and there still *is* an *extremely* active 40k group.
Yeah, this says nothing on a large scale, but that's my personal experience at least.

>I have considered buying it since it's gone as low as EUR40, and it's a good 50 miniatures
>>Still sucks too much even for EUR40
>>
>>45277077

You are underestimating how stupid other people are.
>>
>>45283429
Some of the Khorne models are fine, I'd say. Not enough to justify the price.
>>
>>45283429
I was thinking of maybe getting some and using them as Custodes (with Grey Knights rules) but like you said, they're not even worth $65.
And Lord knows I won't be able to sell the Chaos half.
>>
>>45283531
Chaos half is easy cultist conversions for csm players.
>>
>>45272644

>How could you fix Age of Sigmar?

>turn around so that you are facing the warmahordes rack
>buy some of that

PP actually gives a shit about rules and has been refining skirmish scale fantasy warfare rules for a long time.

Flufwise, I find it a step down from oldhapper, but that's not really the bar to jump anymore, is it?
>>
>>45283566
Aren't they Space Marine size tho?
>>
>>45283531
Where do you live man ?
>>
>>45283429

my flgs got 4 on release day. there are 3 still on the shelf now.

But then I go to the same shop where that guy who torched a couple hundred bucks of dark elves went, so its probably not a typical sample.
>>
>>45283645

so are guardsmen.
>>
>>45283600
Part of the problem for me in replacing GW games is that every other 28mm game seems obsessed with being skirmish scale and a dozen models at most. I want to field hundreds upon hundreds of 28mm Imperial Guard, not a piddly unit of 5 Widowmakers.
>>
>>45283727

Just stick with 40k then. I'm pretty confident it won't get sigmar'd.
>>
>>45283727
Play nineth age/kow then.
>>
>>45283727
If you want something fantasy, KoW might be for you, but ... well, it's a matter of taste.

Believe me, I too would love another game to rise and fill the niche of 'large-scale fantasy wargame' WHFB once occupied - something that is not Warhammer or not!Warhammer possibly.
>>
>>45283727
Gaming with 100s of 28mm miniatures is for complete retards. Anything above skirmish level is really done better by 15, 10 or 6mm games, the literally only upside to 28mm mass combat is that the miniatures look better.

And even then, if you want to insist in your weirdness, it's not difficult to port a 10mm game to 28mm, you just change the measurements and keep all the rest, and you're probably going to have a much tighter game than whfb or 40k to boot.
>>
>>45272644
I think the general idea of Age of Sigmar is good, but it missed a few important details

first things first, make sure the rules have no ambiguity in them. If a model has more than one melee weapon can it attack with each of them or just one? The rules don't say. Are the goofball special character really necessary?

Second, focus on a skirmish game rather than massed armies. Massed armies are gorgeous, but the buy in cost is too intimidating. One of the strongest things AoS going for it is that you can buy a box or two of dudes and play just with that.

third, focus on assymetrical objectives a lot. The sudden death rules make an attempt to balance very disproportionate forces, but they don't do a good job of it and it doesn't address two similar but still not balanced forces. If there is anyway you can make the system work with no points costs, do it.

If it can't be done, just release 40k codexes for the AoS armies. 40k rules are an absolute clusterfuck but the game has critical mass.
>>
>>45283677
How is that important?
>>
>>45272836
>This game is here to stay, no matter how much of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth it incites from the old guard.
GW made the exact same mistake that White Wolf made with NWoD and WotC made with D&D 4e, and look at how well those did.
>>
>>45284150

NWoD is great though.
>>
>>45283879
The problem with this is that being a large-scale fantasy wargame is part of what ended up killing whfb.

The model count just grew and grew until you had a couple of hundred of minis on the table, and at that point it was basically a meh formation wargame that cost 10x as much to get into as it would have if it was in a smaller scale.

Warhammer made sense in it's infancy when 2-3 ranks was an actual unit and there was more focus on heroes and so on. I'm not saying it was a better game, mind you, but it made sense since it was realistic to build an army of 28mm miniatures for it. Then they decided that nope, herohammer is lame, time for some tactics, and we got the editions where the rank bonus often mattered more than the actual number of kills the unit scored, and that's how we ended up with a game where just building a unit of grunts cost you what a starter set used to.

28mm formation wargaming really does not make sense since maneuvering and massed battles are better handled in smaller scale where you have more range of movement and can field hundreds of troops on either side without it being an absolute nightmare to transport and set up, and you don't end up completely swamping the table.
>>
>>45283998
That's a nice opinion. I hope you don't mind sticking it up your ass.

I like massed battles, I like 28 mm as a scale from a hobby perspective so I can enjoy the details and make meaningful conversions, I like rulesets that are based not only on the unit but on the models that make it, and I don't feel like a retard.
So fuck you, kind sir.
>>
>>45284310
Is this pasta? I swear I read this word for word once.
>>
>>45283998
>the literally only upside to 28mm mass combat is that the miniatures look better.
Well yeah. Aren't good looking minis the major reason we're playing miniature wargames in the first place.
>>
>>45283765
>I'm pretty confident it won't get sigmar'd
How naive of you to think that.
>>
GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE
ANYTHING ELSE
EVERYONE ALWAYS GOES ON ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY HATE GW BUT KEEPS BUYING INTO IT, TALKING ABOUT THEIR SHIT, DISCUSSING IT
PLAY A DIFFERENT FANTASY MINIATURES GAME
>>
>>45284310
How are massive games at 28mm fun though? You're limited by the length of your arm, so the table is just two walls of dudes slamming together with no room for maneuvers or flanking. At 5 or 10mm, you can have cavalry, artillery and scouts all over the place, units can really react, and terrain isn't limited to two buildings and a clump of trees.
>>
>>45284573
Granularity has its charms provided positioning matters.
>>
>>45284242
Yeah, pretty much that.

I'd say that up to 6th, the game was pretty stable. With 7th, GW started expanding each army with every re-issue of their armybook, releasing brand new unit and rescuplting old ones. That edition moved the game towards a larger scale, but it was still doing fine - people brought Ogres and Demons because they were new, Elves because they had all new units and finally updated models and rules, and so on. Power creep became much more of a thing and competitive play supported it. So, lot of new things, lots of people buying it. With 8th, prices spiked up, melee infantry became much more important even for non-defensive armies, rules encouraged to make huge hordes which required two boxes or more to assemble, and fuckhueg monsters showed up. It was a horrible maneuver overall: old players had already probably renewed their collections in the years of 7h-early 8th, and new players were discouraged by the even higher entry price. Rather than trying to bring in new players, GW tried to squeeze as much as they could from old ones by raising prices and favouring the new monster toys and larger infantry formations, but they could only get this much out of them and this alienated possible new players even more.

AOS could have been a great maneuver, but its fluff and design alienated most of the old guard and doesn't seem to be overly appealing to new players, and it doesn't have good enough rules or sculpts for its price.
>>
>>45284366
It isn't, and I'm pretty sure I never wrote this before. Coincidence?

>>45284573
A matter of taste I assume. Surely you can't play with 200+ dudes against 200+ dudes comfortably on a 4'x6' table, but 100ish vs 100ish works finely. Of course it's a different experience from 5 or 10 mm, but this doesn't mean it can't be good.
>>
>>45284573
Wasn't Warmaster in 10mm?
>>
>>45284573
>How are massive games at 28mm fun though?
I play on a 110*440 table usually
>>
>>45284511
This is a thread about fixing AOS, go screaming somewhere else.
>>
>>45272836
> the thing you liked has been replaced
> therefore the replacement is not bad
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
>>
>>45272644

fixing implies there is something that you can fix. there is nothing at the core of the shitpile that is AoS, it should be canned and rewritten from ground up
>>
>>45276494
>The fyre slayers sold really well, the chaos products are doing fine, there are good expectations for the upcoming releases.

nevermind that the fucking CEO literally said to the shareholders plain that they will tank even more in q1-q2

I won't call you a shill because you aren't just a very, very stupid individual
>>
>>45276831
>This. It's only the beginning. You can't build a setting fully fleshed out in a day.

This is my favorite shill excuse

Go watch this, and realize how shallow AoS is and how wrong you are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a559heZ3u-g

It works for me tho. GW takes all the money of the stupid people, then crashes and burns. Win-win situation
>>
>>45280016

'tis the part when the shill fades away :^)
>>
>>45276872
what does KoW stand for?
>>
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>>45282474
>>45282545

I got his source, it's under the spoiler
>>
>>45285338
Kings of war
>>
>>45285139
citation needed faggot. Dammit you suck so much dick you should be in the book of world records.

How the fuck would a pleb like you know anything about sales figures? You fucking waste of space, no life loser.

Just fuck off already. GW will not cater for you man-child.
>>
>>45285399
Irate much? Jimmy Rustle?
Tell you what though, you don't have to believe it, you'll find out soon enough.
In fact, without giving too much away, when would you expect a new edition of 40k? Every 2 years roughly?
>>
>>45285504
>Insults counts as arguments: the post
Also GW is literally aiming more and more towards tasteless rich childs and even more tasteless manchilds (which is you, you big shill).
>>
>>45285504

read their financial report you fag. I'm not the shill who are pulling shit out of your ass, so out of your league atm

or even better, read this:

http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop%3A-denial

the cold hard truth without the PR bullshit
>>
About management, shareholders, hobby and gaming.
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop-agm%3A-relentless-profit-machine
>>
>>45285825
>>45285796
So, the guy says GW isn't telling the whole truth, but I'll stick with them because making money is what they do.
>>
>>45285796
>>45285825
>Quell Shills level increased to 93!
>>
>>45285951

ofc you will stick with them, you are on their payroll
>>
>>45285951
Well, the guys say that the company is killing his customer base too, and is generally pretty critical towards them.
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop:-testing-goose-killing-theory
>>
>>45272836
>here to stay
hehehe
>>
Add points cost.
Remove joke rules.
Reduce prices.

The first 2 would turn it into an okay system. The 3rd would turn it into a successful system.
>>
>>45276384
That's not going to happen. That would be the one possible way they could kill 40k.
>>
1) Fluff. At the moment there's fuck all because they only release new stuff with each batch of army releases every 6 months or so. Compared to the 35 years of fluff they just removed. They need to release more books and just put up some free fluff on the internet or w/e. At the moment there's no real universe to play in or way to really theme your army as yours.
2) Points cost. We all know this one. At the moment it's damn near impossible to get a good pickup game going without it.
3) Joke rules. Remove them.
>>
>>45276831
>This. It's only the beginning. You can't build a setting fully fleshed out in a day.
So? Why should I play the game before it's fully fleshed out?
>>
>>45286155

So?

Please tell me the last time GW didn't react to its customers rejecting an idea or addition to the game by fucking doubling down on it and forcing it down their customer's throats out of spite?

Apocalypse sold like shit and was barely played and GW still rammed it straight up the asses of 40k players.

Then players tried to keep superheavies out of 40k so GW started making named characters LoWs and gave strength D to other units.

Hell the joke rules for old WHFB armies in AoS is pretty much an open middle finger to WHFB.

If anything, the spectacular failure of AoS makes the AoS'ification of 40k MORE likely, not less.
>>
>>45276831
You can make it in a month, or in six if you need to, and *then* release the game. Nobody was forcing them, End Times was selling better than late 8th, and AOS hasn't been prepared in a day.
Well, with how bad it turned out, it *might* have been designed in a day.
>>
>>45272644
>How could you fix Age of Sigmar?
>Is it even possible?

No, because from GE's perspective it is not broken.

AoS is not meant to be an actual tabletop game.

It's only meant to hang together long enough to get little Timmy through his demo game and sell him a starter and to serve as an excuse for the manchildren model collectors GW targets to build armies they will never actually use.

GW doesn't WANT an active playerbase. They literally fired their WHFB customer base because they resented them as whining deadbeats.
>>
>>45286462
I guess...it just seems too retarded even for them though.

All it would accomplish is 40k players saying fuck it and quitting.

Please don't ruin 40k
>>
>>45286547

GW's collapsing unit volumes haven't given them pause yet, and they've already spent every moment since 5th edition trying to kill the golden goose. Why would they stop now?
>>
>>45281295

AoS is doing as well as 40k now.
>>
>>45286818
Thanks for bringing me keks in this hour of darkness, you delusional fool.
>>
>>45286818
Do I need to post the AoS starters going for half-off?
>>
>>45272836
>It doesn't need to be fixed because it isn't broken. If you think it needs to be fixed, it just isn't the game for you.

OK faggot, you need to lay off the trendy relativism. We have been over this for months and months, there have been thousands of words posted proving why AoS is objectively stupid as a system.

This limp "i-i-i-it just isn't for you" cop-out is horseshit and you know it. If you can't defend your shitty game properly, don't bother trying at all. Your post is so devoid of anything meaningful or arguable that it's basically shitposting.
>>
>>45286818
Not yet it isn't :^)
>>
>>45287135
you can get dark vengeance boxes for half off too
>>
>>45287384
Uh, not really. Dark Vengeance has still kept its value, and the lowest I've seen it for is like, $95.
>>
>>45287340
pic related
>>
>>45287463
Right, I forgot the proofs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Complete-Starter-Set-New-IN-BOX-Must-see-/161966549188?hash=item25b5f568c4:g:kj4AAOSw37tV-XOD

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Starter-Set-Sealed-/121861737340?hash=item1c5f868b7c:g:OlwAAOSwSdZWcZrR

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CITADEL-GAMES-WORKSHOP-WARHAMMER-AGE-OF-SIGMAR-STARTER-SET-SEALED-/272118184452?hash=item3f5b81fa04:g:RI8AAOSw9mFWMVGn
>>
>>45287628
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Complete-Starter-Set-New-IN-BOX-Must-see-/161966549188?hash=item25b5f568c4:g:kj4AAOSw37tV-XOD

I have a seller that sells gw staff at 30%- even NEW STUFF, so i guess it doesnt really count.
>>
>>45287465
If the only argument you have as to why AoS is worthwhile is the totally subjective "fun" then stop arguing that AoS is any good.
>>
>>45287730
Anon, not only would I like some proof of this seller, but 3rd parties selling your hot new starter set at half-off (50%), then something is wrong.
>>
>>45287731
You must be the anon who actually posted that originally
>>
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>>45287797
Hey, if you have no semi-objective argument, then stop arguing for AoS. I personally think roller coasters are the height (hue) of fun. I don't try to argue to people that roller coasters are the bestest ever because of a subjective quality.
>>
>>45287769
he does not ships internationally(aka no USA), does not have a website and i order trough facebook.
At work atm, may post proof tomorrow if ill remember to.
he has a game store somewhere i think.
And yeah, i basically bought an entire ad emch/skitarii army from him, also made a pestilens army for AOS-I think stores get 40% from GW price, so basically selling at 30% he only gets 10% value but has a LOT more clients.
I myself wouldve not buy that much stuff if it werent for the discount.
Stormcast may be pricey as hell, but plague monks are still cheap, and with 30% discount I made an entire Aos army with 50 bucks.

Back to original topic, i am one of the ones who actually does enjoy Aos.
I can understand the 4 page rule thing-i like it actually. The free warscroll is great too.
the big problem is the vague ruling and shitty rules.

I mean, fuck, they just needed 3 more lines to make the game better(to play like i play it, basically).
You don't want to assign points to models? make a "warscroll value"that ranges from 1 to 3. Like, since we were talking about skavens: 10 plague monks? one warscroll. 1 plague priest? 1 wasrcoll. Blightkings? they are a lot more string than the regular unit, so a warscroll(5 models) has a value of 2.
That would have been so fucking easy.
They didn't want it to be on their base game?
Fine, then make a 5 page supplement named ADVANCED RULES and there we go.
Easy as shit.
Summoning too. i mean, give at least some boundaries. It doesn't require much.
I play with just a few home rules and it's done-its not a tournament game but i completely enjoy it for casual and narrative games. Wich is what i look for so im okay.
>>
>>45288192
>he does not ships internationally(aka no USA), does not have a website and i order trough facebook.
Yeah, and I have a hot girlfriend in Canada.
>>
>>45288913
no, really. he's not the only one.
if you want you can check trough almost all italian pages of wh40k on facebook-there are at least 3 stores who sell gw fom 20 to 30%.
>>
I love what's happening at GW. It is an interesting company and I have been waiting to watch it die for many years.

GW works in a complete vacuum. It ignores competition from other markets, ignores other companies and games from the same market, and it ignores its own customer base. It does what it wants. And it did damn well regardless.

Not so sure that's still the case.

In the 90s it was the king. The default table top war game. All other minis games were basically indies under GW's strong shadow. New games will come and go in a few years. Cool games like VOR and other games from that era could not survive.

Until Warmachine actually survived... to me that was the first symptom of GW's decline. It managed to get a foothold and thrived. Wizkid clicky games managed for a while as well. Flames of War get big too.

Sometime after that, even games like Infinity is thriving. When it started out I loved it but thought it was just another cool small game that will come and go like VOR. Fast forward to now and Infinity carved its own piece of the pie.

Now there are so many options for a person starting this type of hobby. Options that are much cheaper and so better for newbies. Options where local metas actually exist unlike in the 90s (at least in my area...)

GW doesn't realize its strength was in that "other players are easiest to find". It never had the best rules. And i doubt anyone chose GW games for how "premium" they are like their CEO tried to justify for their high price; they bought into their own business rhetoric bullshit.

Now, other games have healthy playerbases that grow. while being much cheaper and have better rules. A person is much more likely to start warma or infinity than GW's.

It will be interesting to see how GW will manage in the years to come.
>>
>>45290837

GW still controls about 80% of the market share. Over the last decade, they have lost about 6% of their market share.

Those other companies are fighting it out for that other 20%. GW is still king and will be for YEARS to come.
>>
>>45291684
It's funny how people use percentages without any actual statistic behind them.
>>
>>45291684

You have no idea what you are talking about. GW's revenue has been falling for several years, and when you consider the price increases they've made in the meantime, you quickly realize that their unit volumes have been plummeting for years.

The fundamental difference between GW and the smaller companies is that GW is structurally incapable of weathering the storm they are well on their way to reaping.

Their fixed cost structure simply cannot withstand the kind of unit volume declines they are experiencing in the long term, the last few reports have shown that they are beginning to run into the hard limits of cost cutting.

Unfortunately, GW is already path committed as their game are totally dependent on network effects and they have already alienated so much of their customer base that it is probably too late to stop the trend towards sinking below the critical threshold and collapsing a La WHFB.

Just look at the online 40k community's massive contraction in the last few years. Look at how desperately BoLS is trying to diversify their clickbait away from GW and 40k.
>>
>>45291995
>Just look at the online 40k community's massive contraction in the last few years.
GW's disdain for online communities and trigger happy lawyers shutting down fansites hasn't helped either.
>>
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>>45272836
Every time...
>>
>>45292059
RIP Warseer.
>>
So if GW dies, who would you want to pick up 40k?
>>
>>45292234
Hasbro.
Maybe we could finally get a halfway decent movie out of it.
>>
>>45292234
Disney might be nice, dunno who'd do the actual product making tho.
>>
AoS release was a complete clusterfuck. Why focus only on Stormcast? Yes they are the new boys in town but people now have the mental image of Stormcast vs. Chaos in some ill defined universe with all other races being shoven aside.

If anything they should have at least got every factions fluff and their current state explained. Asking for starter boxes for each faction with maybe a new character model would be much to ask, would have done a lot to make the start of the system less idiotic.
>>
>>45290837

I just dont understand why they did nothing with the Blood Ravens, they had a chance to catch a new audience, the video game player and they just waste it for no real reason.
>>
>>45293284
The only thing which outweighs Games Workshop's greed is their stupidity. And it outweighs it many times over. And itNever forget this.


>>45272896
Part of the reason the models are so overdesigned is to make them as complex as possible so that they'll be harder to bootleg.
>>
>>45293284
I think its for an IP reason.
Since the Ravens are not their invention, they should've paid for monetizing their name and using them in model boxes etc.

still, it would have been a good moves. its just gw refuses to spend money to make money.

They rather DIE.
(wich is happening)
>>
>>45291995

Blah blah blah. Literally the same old song and dance I've been hearing online for a decade. And GW are still here. And still dominant.
>>
Chaos Dwarves.

CHAOS DWARVES.
>>
>>45272896
I lol'd over this.
Hard.
these are the most posted complains over aos models:
>they dont have enough details! look at the sigmarines! So bland!
>there are too many details in aos models! Look at the sigmarines! They are shit!
really, come on.
As for the lack of named character...people are complaining in other threads that OH MY GOD, HOW I AM SUPPOSED TO MAKE MY OWN CHARACTER IN AOS SETTING? ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO FEEL EMPHATY!"
And, of course, now its the opposite thing.

Srsly, Aos has a LOT of flaws(big ones too), but we are just scratching the bottom of the barrel here just to be on the "i hate aos"wagon.
>>
I can't see ANY reason a new player should choose AoS instead of 40K.. let alone Warmahordes and Infinity.

Better rulesets.
Cooler minis.
Cheaper entry.

Why get any GW games?
>>
GROUND MARINES

CHAAAAAAAAAAAARGE
>>
>>45294084
Because Infinity/WarmaHordes don't get enough publicity, and some people find history gross, so there goes anything from Warlord.
>>
>>45294084
How's the pricing on Infinity?

Warmahordes got stupid expensive, inb4 "b-but you need fewer units than 40k"
>>
>>45294231
Can't you get a 20 point army from the Warmachine "Battle Box"?
>>
>>45294084
But I'm in love with the Warhammer world.

The only other thing I could think of getting into is Battletech.
>>
>>45294231
Less than $50 bucks entry box set for any faction and free rules.

$100 boxed sets with terrain and 2 starter factions.
>>
>>45294296
Yeah but that's only one box deal. The meta wasn't stable, and it's very combo-heavy so you buy a lot of one-trick ponies.
>>
>>45294304
So do I. But AoS look nothing like it used to be. Orcs are now Orruks. Wtf?

Id just get my GW fix from computer games.
>>
>>45294358
So it's less viable as compared to when it came out? Could selling the minis from the side you don't want (kinda like Darn Vengeance) and buying some more minis with that money fix this?
>>
>>45294379
It's just, I wanna get into tabletop because I got into Warhammer through computer games, but it's so expensive. No fantasy world pulls me in like Warhammer, not even Lord of the Rings.
>>
>>45294337
>>45294418
People kept telling me that, then I go to actually buy and make a list, and it's oh you need X, Y, Z to augment the starter list to actually be competitive with the lists we've got. I can see in a few months someone will splurge and upset the meta for the rest of us at the LGS, then I have to buy new stuff too.
I don't like combo-oriented games for this reason. Should be in CCGs and stay there.
>>
>>45294084
Mostly because the warmahordes players are assholes, not sure about mantic guys or infinity guys, but I know those guys hate new players.
>>
>>45294419
You see Anon, the Warhammer you know is dead.
It was replaced by "Age of Sigmar", which is basically GW being as uncreative as possible whilst taking your money.
>>
>>45294498
I guess I'll buy Battletech or Infinity or something.

I'm not really into Warmachine because Steampunk is a shit aesthetic.
>>
>>45294231
Don't full-sized WM/H armies cost around $200? As compared to around $500 give or take for something from 40k (unless you play Guard, Nids, or Orks) that's pretty reasonable.
>>
>>45272644
From a fluffpoint, no.

You could resurrect Fantasy and let them both coexist as different universes like Blood Bowl.

But Age is fucked, and Fantasy fans will never accept it.

They could probably make more money by merging it with 40k though, as one "Ultimate Showdown" universe.
>>
>>45294527
Now, there is a third option. Does your LGS have a Warhammer Fantasy group? If so, there's an okay chance that they haven't stopped playing Fantasy.
If so, you could build an army and play. However, (unless you play Empire) it will be expensive.
>>
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>>45274518
It gets worse.
>>
>>45294425
No, you don't NEED anything in Infinity. Obviously a starter is just a starter, augmenting your list is obviously the next step if you like the game. But there aren't any must haves. Its all really about what or how you want to play.
>>
>>45294594
>unless you play empire, it will be expensive
My Ogre kingdoms army cost me like 260 dollars, it is the basic "2 battalion box, 2 mournfang boxes and one slaughtermasters. " which is pretty great.
>>
>>45294618
Can we get a mob together and burn down GW's HQ?
>>
>>45294671
Righto, I forgot about Ogres. Warriors of Chaos are probably the same.
However, I pity the fool who pays modern O&G prices.
>>
>>45294702
Same goes with skaven and undead players as well.
>>
>>45294618
I don't know how to feel about this.
>>
>>45294732
I'm really not looking forward to what they're gonna do to my poor rats once it's their turn to get their new "armybook."
They already purged the names of all our special characters on the store...
>>
Under the stairs
>GO_SIT_IN_THE_CORNER.jpg
I'm dying
>>
>>45294231
You get a starter box for roughly $50. If you want one of the factions in the VS boxes, lucky you - you get two *bigger* starter boxes for less than $100. If you can get your hands on an all-in-one army box, you can get a tournament-size, competitive list for roughly $130. You can assemble a 35 points list without any of these boxes for roughly $160-200, or for the same price get an army box + enough extra to build several different lists.
Not entirely cheap, neither entirely bonkers. Far cheaper than 40k and far FAR cheaper than Warhammer was.
(To be fair though you aren't getting many models. For example Legion's army in a box has 6 models of infantry, 3 infantry solos, 1 light warbeast, 3 heavy warbeasts and a warcaster. Infantry and cavalry is stupidly expensive)
>>
>>45294492
I don't hate new players. Nobody in my area ever hated me or my friends for being new players. But I'm sorry to hear your local warmahorders bullied you.
>>
>>45294811
Judging by the fact no one is playing it, and they are pretty much doing a "hahaha jk here's specialist games back." Thing (unless that changed and I've been out of the fucking loop for so long.) The damage to the skavens have been done.
what is this Mayan/Aztec dwarf bullshit they're doing now?
>>
>>45295005
Yeah, it sucked hard.
>>
Ever since THQ went belly up and apparently took Dawn of War with it, I have thought that GW really needs to get another decent vidyagaem series going. The IP is perfect for it.
>>
>>45290837
>while being much cheaper and have better rules

>implying Warmachine is cheaper with their release cycle and metacreep, much less having better rules

Its also pretty bad senpai. Infinity at least is sort of decent but good luck finding people.
>>
>>45295501
Isn't that the whole point of Total Warhammer?

Except that Total Warhammer is going to use Rome 2's God Awful engine and only have 5 factions, one of which is DLC.
>>
>>45295512
I was talking mostly about infinity.

Players is not a problem even in my shitty local meta ( where you used to find only GW PPL for tabletop, only DND for RPG, and only magic and yugioh for CCG back in the day.) There are local infinity players in this shitty meta.
>>
The fact of the matter is I'm gonna keep buying 40k and, if AoS gets a second edition with actual points costs or army formatting that is remotely sane, I'll give that a try as well. I can't do Warmachine anymore, the meta, the try hard attitude, the tournament scene, the roller coaster of model quality, everything about it doesn't do anything for me these days. Combine that with their release cycle (though Ido appreciate them updating ALL FACTIONS AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME MAYBE TRY THAT OUT GEE DUBS??) and their own attitude toward it, and scenario play, further kills it for me.

No one plays Infinity here and those who have expressed interest are bothersome.

Kings of War picked up the handful of WHFB players and they'll all perma-buttmad GG ragequit who act like children mid-game yet have enormous disposable income to throw away on it because they think eating Ramen noodles and spending their wages on plastic army men is a sound financial investment.

That leaves uh.. 40k, which I enjoy. And Maulifaux, which has some really creepy mouth breathers playing it. So yeah, 40k it is.
>>
>>45295588

Infinity has been a hard sell in my area outside of one store and I don't have the time or resources to get a demo box assembled, painted, and show up weekly or twice a week to run demos and kick start my own community. I work 60+ hours a week I'd like to just be able to come into the store 2-3 times a month and get a game on without needing to worry about stupid power combos or not being able to find players at all, or forced to play someone who's a mad competitive ultracunt.
>>
>>45272644
Step 1: trash TLOS for B2B
Step 2: Viable Competitive Procedural Army Generation (probably with Points)

That's literally all it needs.
>>
>>45284150
>same mistake that White Wolf made with NWoD and WotC made with D&D 4e, and look at how well those did.
But WW and WoTC turned broke ass shit with no balancing mechanics using "tell a story/forge the narrative" into well built gameist games. GW did the exact opposite of that.
>>
>>45295682

The stupid TLOS and 'measure from weapons' garbage was them being lazy and making concessions to WHFB models being on square bases. I think once they've finished rebranding and packaging everything, and overhauling the more important army lines, they'll probably drop it and assume everyone has round bases now.

But seriously fuck TLOS. Why does GW hate codified model profiles? It would do a Lot for their shitty games.
>>
>>45295696
>gameist games
what the fuck does that actually mean?
and yes, the difference between GW and WW/WoTC is that people bought NWoD and D&D4th.
>>
>>45295733
A game that's focused around the game. It's not that hard of a concept
>>
>>45294752
Perplexed is good.
40k outsells Fantasy.
They replace Fantasy with a new property, but they made 40k subordinate to it.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
>>
>>45283765
>He hasn't read the latest release's fluff
We 40k End Times now, son
>>
>>45296448
40k has always been End Times.

But then again, so had Fantasy.
>>
>>45295626
>Everyone is a stupid fanboy
>Everyone BUT ME!
>>
>>45295867
El CEOdente left/stepped down, didn't he? Things seem to be getting better under the new guy at least.
>>
>>45292119
Did they kill Warseer???
>>
>>45297926
Yes

Hard live isn't it
>>
>>45297926
GW did that? I thought it was just a tech issue.
>>
>>45294732

skaven was cheap as fuck whilst IoB was in print

like you could get 40 rats for under 20 quids
>>
>>45294973
>Not entirely cheap, neither entirely bonkers. Far cheaper than 40k and far FAR cheaper than Warhammer was.

Are you implying that WHFB was more expensive than 40k? Because that wasn't the case at all, a WHFB army at 2400 points and 75-125 models costed less than a 40k army at 1850 with 50-75 models (except if you played an all tact marines shit army). Take a look at the costs of Eldar, 5 28 mm infantry models for 20 quids, that buys you 16-20 core infantry for whfb, 25GBP for 3 jetbikes which you routinely use 18-24 of, I'm not even going into wraith knight territory that costs more than a WHFB battalion that has 40+ models; or just add up the 8+ 'free' rhinos you get for a Battle Company

The time to paint nearly twice as money models was the downfall of WHFB, the time investment cost was way higher thank 40k eventho it was cheaper model-for-model basis
>>
>>45295553

and what is Total Warhammer exactly advertising? A game they axed?
>>
>>45298385
A Mantic game.
>>
>>45293941

Learn to read financial statements and compare them over time before you shitpost, it would save you from embarrassing yourself further.
>>
>>45292548
>give buyers what they wants!
>Stormarines and more Stormarines!
>Also traitor Stormarines!
>GW fixed fantasy guys! Now you don't even need to spend undreds of bucks!
>>
>>45294021
I agree, I have never been a fan of fielding named characters as HQs, it pushes you into a mold of established canon.

Now I've never played WFB, or even held a single model of it, but AoS desperately needs a dose of creativity.
The reason the factions are so bland is because they leave little room for non-canon. Sure your sigmarines could be red and black and wield katanas, but then they wouldn't be sigmarines.
They have a set personality and look, even without special characters, you'd be hard-pressed to create your own lore that fits in universe.

Then you have the power players, Nagash, Archeon, Sigmar, Horned Rat.
Their armies are literally, "minions of said commander." No personality, no depth. Why have special characters when they are just wimpier versions of their leader?
>>
>>45272644
Cut out half the hammers and replace them with skulls and weapons other than hammers.

Also bring formations back as a squad ability that gives a bonus against morale penalties for being outnumbered, I want dense formations of golden armoured myrmidons struggling against a seething tide of ratmen, plundering interdimensional berserkers and nurglings.
>>
>>45294811
>I'm really not looking forward to what they're gonna do to my poor rats

Skaven are exactly the same.
>>
>>45301416
Wrong, Skaven are Dark Eldar now. They have a webway.
>>
>>45302192
No, they're Skaven. With tunnels.
>>
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>>45272644
Retcon the End Times entierly and pretend that Age of Sigmar never was a thing.
>>
>>45272644
It's Dallas series nine time, Karl Franz wakes up in the shower and realises it was all a dream. Gets ready to go out for dinner and opens his balcony window just to make sure Altdorf is fine. Tells Balthasar all about it and they have a good laugh.
>>
>>45272644
Yes...you stop and have a gentlemanly talk about what you want your scenario to beand then play the game so that BOTH of you have fun.
Too many little asshats who only want to win or care if THEY have fun have ruined these games.....
>>
>>45303071
Best answer.

The two settings have so little in common that it's an easy thing to do.
>>
>>45303592
So AoS was ruined from day one then.
>>
>>45303592
But dear Anon, AOS doesn't work as a game, and saying "Sort out how to have fun and balanced games by yourselves, it's not your job" is not exactly how you resolve these gaming problems.
If you were bright enough to stick your head out of your buttocks, you would have already understood it.
>>
>>45298692

And you let me know when GW goes out of business.
>>
>>45303748
Oh yes.....fair and balanced.......what EVERY war scenario has.....

look up Rorke's Drift sometime...or Thermopylae....
or the Gulf War.....
or...
or....
or......
AoS works fine as a game when two friends try to drive a story. 40k doesn't work as a game either if you want to get down to it...most of what GW sells doesn't.
>>
>>4530393
I'm the one who just posted about Rorke's Drift...

I have played GW games since you could find the Rogue Trader book and Space Marine plastic box set in Walden Books in the malls....I have spent a LOT of money on GW....I also quit GW for a long time when they killed off the Squats....these games were never meant to be tourney games. The tourney mentality is what has screwed up the community for them
>>
>>45303936
Anon, these are not even arguments. You could as well be saying "I don't see why people bitch about martial classes being inferior to spellcasters in D&D3.5, it's not like swords versus magic would be a fair fight."

Also all these fucking ellipsis. My God, are you 13?
>>
>>45303929

Oh I will. You don't realize how fast falling revenues can turn into insolvency when you have fixed costs on the scale GW does. They have 5 years, probably.
>>
>>45304067
LOL. Yes because D&D is fair and balanced too. God, that thing was a train wreck.
And, wow, insulting someone for not typing the way you do. Awww, have a touched a nerve?
So...me complaining about other people complaining about a GAME is not arguments. You're right. They are not arguments. They are just me bitching about people constantly bitching about AoS. It's always the whole "Waaaaa, I don't like this game, so I am going to bitch about it constantly. If I can't find a topic where people are genuinely trying to discuss the game and like it, so I can whine and complain in it.....well.....I am gonna make another one like the 50 others before it and bitch."
I want to like AoS. I want to discuss AoS. But I'll be damned if I can find a single place on the internet that doesn't get invaded by whiney bitchy little asshats who can let someone else enjoy something without trying to tear it down.
So I am going to start invading the bitch sessions I find and inject some whine right back.
>>
>>45304248
It's ok to like bad things.
it is not ok to defend bad thing as a good thing.
>>
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>>45304248
>Spaghetti

This is the mental capacity of GW's target demographic for AoS, ladies and gentlemen.
>>
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>>45272710
Found the GW exec
>>
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>>45304248
>>
>>45284440
>Well yeah. Aren't good looking minis the major reason we're playing miniature wargames in the first place.

Are you playing the game because the minis are pretty, not because you enjoy the game?

I mean. I paint and convert and collect the miniatures because they're pretty. That makes sense. I don't play an objectively shittier game because I have a boner for 28mm elves or anything.

I can respect people who say that they genuinely enjoy whfb, okay, lets agree to disagree there, good for them, but someone who doesn't want to try other better games because they're not as pretty baffle me. I mean, fuck, scaling up warmaster and playing it with warhammer figs still ends up being more fun than playing warhammer.
>>
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>>45304248
Jesus Christ, man.
>>
>>45304822
It baffles you that people only play games they like the fluff and aesthetics for?
>>
>>45304658
Yep. Spaghetti. Noodles for brains.131 IQ, degree in robotics and finishing a Master's in Biology. God, I am duhh ummmb.
>>
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>>45305132
>Embarrassing yourself this badly

Time for suicide, autismo-kun :^)
>>
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>>45305132
>Bringing up anything to do with IQ
>You have already lost
>>
By ending its pathetic excuse of a life


Blood for the blood god
>>
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>>45304248

Autism: The Post.
>>
>>45305132
>>
>>45276842
can anyone source this? Would be interesting if true.
>>
>>45298118

RIP Portent.
>>
>>45276842
>During a shareholder meeting they bragged about not doing any market research so I sincerely doubt that is their motivation.
That was last phase of Kirby's mad rule.
I'm pretty sure the new CEO is smarter than that. Shame he couldn't have stopped the whole AoS trainwreck, by the time he took a wheel it was already too far in the making to call off.
>>
>>45298166
Warseer got C&D over leaking rules.
>>
>>45305650
Funny enough, isn't Kirby still with GW as a non-executive or something? Therefore making the new guy (Rountree) his sock-puppet?
>>
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>>45304248
>>
>>45304248
This is literally a thread devoted to discuss ways to improve, fix or save AoS, starting from the assumption it has problems. So don't be such a precious sissy princess about people not letting you enjoy your lackluster game, because this is not the right place.
>>
>>45305676
I stopped going there years ago. Can't say I'm shocked or upset.
>>
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>>45305650
>pretty sure the new CEO is smarter than that
>all hail the new CEO
>>
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>>45304248
I read what you had to say, Anon, and my brain almost melted with your bullshit and butthurt.
>>
>>45304248
>>45305132
Jesus Christ how are you this autistic. nobody cares for your made up credentials, in this place they mean nothing, admit that your a fucking retard and just fade out of thread.
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