The core idea of the game is generally sound, I think.
One of the biggest hurdles of getting people into a wargame is always that moment where they go "I want to play this and this and this" and you have to explain to them that such and such models don't work together, such and such models can only be taken so many times, etc, etc, etc.
The "bring anything you got" idea has merit. It means balance is shot to hell, more or less, so you'd really just focus on making sure certain things weren't too insane.
What would be more important, I think, is having a solid game in the rules, something that's interesting and fun. This is where AoS has failed, more than anything else: people will forgive a hell of a lot so long as the game has good, fun rules.
So the answer is just to revamp the entire combat system so that it's actually interesting and fun to play, and you've pretty much solved 90% of AoS's problems.
Age of Sigmar could work fine. All it needs is some standard way of determining "fair" pairings (i.e. point costs), and removing the dumb joke rules. That's it.
It won't be a replacement for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and it is not intended to be. Age of Sigmar is designed for very simple quick skirmish games, not strategic mass battles. Even if one does not like Age of Sigmar, it is easy to see its purpose and target audience, and it can be a "good game" for those people: the kind that just want a mindless, short game and opportunities to make cheesy one-liners. For those that like that sort of thing, more power to them.
Indeed, I think the best way to improve Age of Sigmar is not by changing Age of Sigmar, but by providing an alternative that is like the old Warhammer setting and game. Warhammer is cool in a different way than Age of Sigmar: it was a world with otherworldly monsters battling with gritty, down-to-earth realistic heroes. In addition, Warhammer was fun for the tactical decisions and complex rules. I do not hate Age of Sigmar. It is merely not for me.
I'm going to skip over the rules and say what it needs is better background and models.
There's a serious lack of characters to identify with and no feel of a complete setting. It's really just a very obvious excuse for the various factions to exist and fight each other. Everyone you actually see is some kind of mutant angel-ghost super soldier. There's no sense that they have lives which we can imagine living. There's no ordinary people you can empathise with or feel like you are fighting for. You need some grubby peasants.
As for the models, the only advice I can really give is to stop making them look like shit. Hire designers with a vague grasp of anatomy and sane proportions. Don't cover everything with detail which is impossible to paint well and spiky bits which inevitably break off.
I would like to add that I do not ask for GW to make the alternative setting. They are not Marvel or DC; maintaining multiple parallel fantasy universes would confuse their brand. What GW needs is a credible competitor to pick up what they dropped off.
I was never nearly as interested in WH over 40K, but I definitely liked quite a bit of its literature.
Age of Sigmar is completely, entirely unappealing to me. It's not even Fantasy anymore; it's crazy magic-science High Fantasy on ecstasy. Hell, those Stormwhatevers really are pretty much Viking Space Marines, only not in the Space Wolves way.
>>45272836 >WHFB is not coming back, it is dead Probably true. >This game is here to stay Doubtful. Interest seems to have died very quickly and I suspect Geedubs won't continue trying to sustain it for long.
>>45272644 >reskin 7th edition with some work on rules as AoS second edition+some skirmish and scenarios rules >bring back the old army books while solving internal balance and power creep. >use the new art for the army books and rulebook. >make rules for the "new factions" and models >use round bases and sell the old "war of the ring" bases for ranks like in the old hammer >act ask if nothing happened
>>45272644 We alreay had this discussion a lot of times, and I'm getting pretty tired of repeating the same points.
It needs to better define its background and fluff so to motivate people to get actually interested in armies. It needs to either improve design quality or dramatically lower costs, because "muh premium hobby miniatures" suck and lack hobby interest for most fantasy fans anyway. It needs an actual rules system that features points cost, interaction between unit values that go beyond "I damage anything on X+, you resist anything on Y+ and can take Z damage", some rules that encourage tactical decisions regardin terrain, positioning and such shit ... to put it shortly, it needs an actually decent skirmish ruleset.
>>45272644 Rules. This game needs rules and the models need to actually interact which each others. Just rules for a skirmish game, not even grand battles like warhammer was. Give us rules for Slaanesh' sake. And now that we are at this, give us back Slaanesh as well.
>>45272710 you're an idiot. nope, no merit just money hungermonguers. No the lack of solid rules is just an consequence of the rest. Here you start making sense, yes they should firstly and foremost fix the combat system.
The fundamental problem is AoS doesn't exist to be a wargame.
It exists to be an excuse for modelers to get together and show their mini's off. It's a side project. A distraction. A justification to sell paints and plastic, nothing more. GW doesn't care for it's merits as a game, so little to no thought was put into it.
As for why? Because they're chasing sales data. Their market research says this this and this sells, so they put out this this and this.
They are running themselves like a TOY company, not a hobby company. The fact that YOU have to paint and assemble the action figures is just icing on the cake.
>>45272644 I would have gone full Fallout: Magic Edition.
The forces of Order and the forces of Chaos got together with the two main undead factions trying to exterminate each other and having their own little brawl.
Eventually the polar reality holes assplode due to combined assault of humans, lizards and elves.
Magical shockwaves fuck everything magic up to some extent. Warpstone moon shatters and drops warpstone everywhere.
Elven homeland sinks when the magic sink in the middle implodes. All that's left of Ulthuan is some nice islands and good fishing ground. Whats left of the High Elves live in fishing villages.
The dark realm of Naggaroth got shanked by a surprise vampire army from the undead coast to the south as well as angry lizards. The a suspiciously well coordinated mass slave uprising.
Naggaroth is now a very loosely allied collection of city states and fortified towns with a very fluid social order. Former slaves of both human and elven stock make up the population.
The lizard men only have 2 or 3 cities left. All of the 2nd and 3rd generation Slaan are dead as are most of the 4th and 5th. Elven homeland sinking caused a massive wave that destroyed everything they had on the coasts.
Dorfs have only one of their great fortresses left.
They now mostly dwell in places of mild magical contamination because no other sane person contests them.
There is no Empire or Kislev or Bretonia left now. All those old names died in the final days of the war, of interest only to historians and scavengers. Mankind now lives predominantly along the river banks. Primeval forest reclaimed most of the Old World. Some new settlements have been built or reclaimed along the coast after the great wave wrecked them.
Wood elves are the most prosperous of the sane people. The great ward stones that contained their little forest exploded when the chaos gates assploded and it spread and spread and spread all the way to the coast.
Really, the system itself isn't horrible, it's just let down by the lack of a point system - none of the proposed systems *really* work all that well, be it counting wounds, warscrolls or price in actual cash.
>>45276103 Of the halflings no sign now remains. The dwarfs once made an expedition to the Moot but found only an enormous crater and a lot of warpstone fragments.
It looked like the whole place got impacted and the survivors picked off by the roaving bands of beastmen.
Although wood elves are the most numerous and prosperous of the sane people to survive they are no uncontested.
The two biggest factions are beastmen and orcs. They are locked in a state of total war with each other and just as well. If either side was victorious or directed their malice outwards they would easily drive whats left of men and dwarfs and elves into extinction. The Wood Elves avoid them when they can, divert them away from settlements and lure them into each other.
The Skaven did not do so well when the magic went insane. Being so saturated with chaos already the shockwaves coming from the poles pushed the vast majority of the species over the edge into hairy chaos spawn like things.
No less numerous, capable of breeding quickly, extremely dangerous but thankfully almost totally mindless and tend to turn on each other when hungry, hurt or just bored.
The Skaven that survived intact integrated into the hordes of the beastmen, usually as cannon fodder disposable bodies but the ones steeped in cruel cunning are the shadowy advisors behind every great monster. They have a similar deal going with the orcs and both are to an extent proxy armies for the Skaven inter clan bickering.
The marauders of the far north are cut off from their dark gods when the north pole gate closed. On the whole nothing changed all that much. Had their been even one semi-intact nation left to oppose them they would have been crushed. But their was not and the people of what was once Kislev and the Empire felt their wroth.
>>45276217 Demons left behind suddenly found themselves bereft of power and slowly bleeding away and fading. To survive as anything but a wispy voice on the breeze they no longer maintain a physical form but instead possess and buff mortal champions, either leaders of warbands or those they wish to make so.
Not sure what should become of the undead factions.
Every time I see people discuss AoS online it's always negative. I'm in the minority.
AoS is good. I used to play all the miniatures games six years ago. I went to tournaments for everything and had a painted army for at least seven different games. I didn't have a fantasy army, because movement trays and wheeling is gay. I don't play historicals either though, so maybe that wasn't my cup of tea. But the story was awesome. The background and fluff had me wanting to play vampires but the rules turned me off. AoS simplifies the rule system so anyone can pick this game up and play with me. I hang out with a lot of board gamers and they can pick up AoS with a simple walk through and glance at the rules. And they have fun! Previoulsy this took hours and an investment in a 40$+ rule book and a 20$+ rule book.
My real beef is throwing the setting away. But, in my mind, I think it will play out that existence is cyclical. The world is created by slaan using powerful life magic and realmgates to get to the new world. Others start escaping the escalating war in the planes to the new material world. Old world discovers new world. I don't know though. If GW doesn't fix the setting in an edition, that's a problem.
No one is ever wanted to identify with cousins unless it's some sort of romance novel or bodice ripper where the plane yet beautiful peasant girl has a grumpy noble man fall madly in love with her but he can't admit it because polite society.
Peasants only exist so characters are exceptions to them not as the norm that people will engage and identify with. No one wants to be a fucking peasant.
>>45276763 I have some friends whow eren't into minis at all and they found out about AoS. They bought the starter set and all.
Then they saw me playing KoW and they switched to it instantly. Mind you, a game of KoW with 200 minis on the table is faster and more interesting than a game of AoS with one fifth of that amount. Good thing sigmarines make decent elohi.
Nah it's pretty clever in many regards, just not the lack of points or 'silly character rules'. Monster profiles becoming progressively worse as they take damage is great and I wish that is how vehicles and monstrous creatures worked in Warhammer 40000.
Streamlining to hit, wound, etc so it's all on the profile along with any special rules they have is also nice and undercuts a lot of table referencing and bickering about USR interpretations.
If they adapted this stuff to Warhammer 40,000 I would be okay with it as long as they kept the fucking points values.
>>45272644 Yeah it's possible. The setting is young, and not much has been done with it yet. Just do a soft relaunch. Use a new, better ruleset to justify it.
Hire writers specifically to create the setting and people specifically to create the game. Ones that have experience doing so. Don't just rely on the same room of writers you use to write blurbs for new Tau robots, that's obviously fucking dumb. You don't put Bret Ratner in the directors chair if you want a billion dollar franchise.
Make the product familiar in shape and distinct in detail. Directly copying whats successful is not a winning strategy, because if it's too similar people will just stick with what they've got. Batman and Spiderman are both people who wear stupid costumes and batter animal-themed criminals, but all the little details are different so they aren't considered the same.
Finally, give people something to look for. Some end goal or mystery that's open-ended but teases a specific answer. Bake them into the whole thing. Don't just tell people shit and expect them to care.
>>45276831 True, but it doesn't matter when the setting is shit and hard to get into. If I'm getting into 40k I can get the BRB and have an overview of the setting, major factions, major places, major characters, etc. Basically the fluff starter kit. I know enough about the universe to get invested in it and can decide where to expand to.
If I'm getting into AoS I can get the main book, but the fluff's still a work in progress, right? So to actually know enough of the fluff to get invested in it, I need to buy multiple $75 campaign books.
The other issue is, even if their fluff is improving they have no good way to get that fluff out there to potential new players. 40k has the benefit of decades of brand recognition. Even if you've never played the game, if you play tabletop minis games of RPGs or video games, you probably have some awareness of the "40k story" from its various media and can jump right in. AoS doesn't have that benefit, and the little bit you can gleam from reading product descriptions of GW's website isn't too enticing. They'd need some kind of multimedia blitz to overcome this, but all the supplementary stuff (aside from BL books and audio dramas) are all still using the Warhammer fantasy fluff. FFG doesn't have even one Age of Sigmar product, but still sells WFRP and Chaos in the Old World, and every non 40k video game that has come our or is planned to come out recently are based on warhammer fantasy. Is there even one AoS game in the works?
>>45272644 Turning WHFB into a skirmish game was a good move.
The game warhammer turned into towards the last 15 years or so of it's life was really, really not a good fit for 28mm. Nobody who's not a masochist wants to get into a game where they have to buy 2 boxes of plastic dudes, a blister of command figures, clean, assemble and paint all of that, only to make 1 shitty unit of spearmen for their army that doesn't even take up 1/10 of the points you need. Like why the hell would you do that? That's insane. Which is why people stopped getting into whfb when 40k had such a low point of entry compared to it.
So. If you want 28mm minis, a mass battles game between ranked units is probably the most retarded option. Those kinds of games are both way, way better (because of the scale, the manouvering the epic look) for 6 or 10mm miniatures.
What was NOT a good move was scrapping a well-beloved setting and turning it into World of Warhammercraft.
They should have just said "Sorry guys, but WHFB is not really working for us as a commercial game any more, we done fucked up" and made some kind of Mordheim or dungeoncrawler out of warhammer instead. Or even better, brought back Warmaster in plastic and included a 28MM scale miniature in every box of 10mm guys for painting and collecting. Hell, even scaling down the battles and making something more along the lines of the actually very good LoTR wargame out of it would have been a good move.
But scrapping the warhammer world in order to make a not-game like AoS just feels like a huge overreaction and the only thing I can imagine that lets it make sense to me was if WHFB was losing them even more money than we think it was, and we already think it was pretty damn bad considering a lot of stores made less on whfb than it made on glue and paint towards the end.
>>45276842 No one does shit without market research. That is not something you brag about. Ever. If that is in fact the case, and not hyperbole, then management is so incompetent as to be record setting and the only reason they haven't been No-Confidenced is either a lack of controlling shares outside the management or they're so niche no one cares.
I think this argument is incredibly over-used in gaming. In literature, where you're pretty much spending half a book inside someone's head, then yes, it's important that you can, if not identify with him/her, at least understand them somehow and put their actions into context.
But in fucking warhammer? Shit. The most popular warhammer 40k faction is the superhuman space marines, more or less completely devoid of humanizing features. Unless you read shitty black library novels, most warhammer 40 000 player barely have any clue about what space marines eat, if they fuck, if they have hobbies besides tinkering with their bolters and who does their laundry.
For the majority of players, they only exist as the over the top stormtroopers on sci-fi steroids we see in the artwork, they are incredibly inhuman to most players. And they fucking love them.
"I need to identify with the characters!" is bs, we just need to think they are cool. Otherwise space marines and spiky space marines wouldn't be so popular even among people who have very little clue about the Horus Heresy and who don't really pay too much attention to the books unless they have rules in them.
In fact, you can make the argument that the most faceless and blank characters can be appealing because they let you fill in the blanks yourself, or because their personality doesn't drown out your other impressions of the setting they occupy.
>>45279670 >You are the one in an AoS thread when you don't play AoS. I literally cannot think of anything more pathetic than that. If this is your opinion, why are you posting in this thread? >I literally cannot think of anything more pathetic than that.
>>45279917 >Durr he was developing the new edition of Warhammer years ago. It had 'fixed' to hit rolls. And that has any bearing on AoS how? And who was talking about Kings of War? Is that what GW is telling you to deface now?
>>45280430 As a game it failed at that point. As a franchise, it started failing as GW failed to keep up with all the factions and cash in considering how the majority of the players were 'veterans' which consequently brought very little. The obvious response would have been to lower the entry price with cheap starter sets and a focus on smaller games, but of course GW couldn't do the math. >So what's wrong with doing that now with AOS? They scrapped a well-established franchise in hope to force everyone to buy a brand new army, and managing to alienate most of the old playerbase that way. Also they did so with an idiotic ruleset.
>>45282432 Read them all. >Explosive Rage: It takes very little to draw the ire of a Runeson, and they can go from smouldering contemplation to blazing anger in a heartbeat. In the hero phase, pick an enemy unit that is visible to the Runeson to be the subject of his latest outburst of wrath and rage. Until your next hero phase, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 when the Runeson attacks that unit. In addition, if a battleshock test is made for the unit before your next hero phase, add 1 to the result of the dice roll if you can deliver a suitably characterful insult or furious put-down (aimed at the unit in question, of course – not your opponent!). I take it back. There are still joke rules. -.-
>>45283068 The two shops that sell it in my city have it out at half price, and still can't get rid of them. It has been a massive flop here, and there was a rather active WHFB community - and there still *is* an *extremely* active 40k group. Yeah, this says nothing on a large scale, but that's my personal experience at least.
>I have considered buying it since it's gone as low as EUR40, and it's a good 50 miniatures >>Still sucks too much even for EUR40
>>45283429 I was thinking of maybe getting some and using them as Custodes (with Grey Knights rules) but like you said, they're not even worth $65. And Lord knows I won't be able to sell the Chaos half.
>>45283600 Part of the problem for me in replacing GW games is that every other 28mm game seems obsessed with being skirmish scale and a dozen models at most. I want to field hundreds upon hundreds of 28mm Imperial Guard, not a piddly unit of 5 Widowmakers.
>>45283727 Gaming with 100s of 28mm miniatures is for complete retards. Anything above skirmish level is really done better by 15, 10 or 6mm games, the literally only upside to 28mm mass combat is that the miniatures look better.
And even then, if you want to insist in your weirdness, it's not difficult to port a 10mm game to 28mm, you just change the measurements and keep all the rest, and you're probably going to have a much tighter game than whfb or 40k to boot.
>>45272644 I think the general idea of Age of Sigmar is good, but it missed a few important details
first things first, make sure the rules have no ambiguity in them. If a model has more than one melee weapon can it attack with each of them or just one? The rules don't say. Are the goofball special character really necessary?
Second, focus on a skirmish game rather than massed armies. Massed armies are gorgeous, but the buy in cost is too intimidating. One of the strongest things AoS going for it is that you can buy a box or two of dudes and play just with that.
third, focus on assymetrical objectives a lot. The sudden death rules make an attempt to balance very disproportionate forces, but they don't do a good job of it and it doesn't address two similar but still not balanced forces. If there is anyway you can make the system work with no points costs, do it.
If it can't be done, just release 40k codexes for the AoS armies. 40k rules are an absolute clusterfuck but the game has critical mass.
>>45272836 >This game is here to stay, no matter how much of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth it incites from the old guard. GW made the exact same mistake that White Wolf made with NWoD and WotC made with D&D 4e, and look at how well those did.
>>45283879 The problem with this is that being a large-scale fantasy wargame is part of what ended up killing whfb.
The model count just grew and grew until you had a couple of hundred of minis on the table, and at that point it was basically a meh formation wargame that cost 10x as much to get into as it would have if it was in a smaller scale.
Warhammer made sense in it's infancy when 2-3 ranks was an actual unit and there was more focus on heroes and so on. I'm not saying it was a better game, mind you, but it made sense since it was realistic to build an army of 28mm miniatures for it. Then they decided that nope, herohammer is lame, time for some tactics, and we got the editions where the rank bonus often mattered more than the actual number of kills the unit scored, and that's how we ended up with a game where just building a unit of grunts cost you what a starter set used to.
28mm formation wargaming really does not make sense since maneuvering and massed battles are better handled in smaller scale where you have more range of movement and can field hundreds of troops on either side without it being an absolute nightmare to transport and set up, and you don't end up completely swamping the table.
>>45283998 That's a nice opinion. I hope you don't mind sticking it up your ass.
I like massed battles, I like 28 mm as a scale from a hobby perspective so I can enjoy the details and make meaningful conversions, I like rulesets that are based not only on the unit but on the models that make it, and I don't feel like a retard. So fuck you, kind sir.
>>45284310 How are massive games at 28mm fun though? You're limited by the length of your arm, so the table is just two walls of dudes slamming together with no room for maneuvers or flanking. At 5 or 10mm, you can have cavalry, artillery and scouts all over the place, units can really react, and terrain isn't limited to two buildings and a clump of trees.
I'd say that up to 6th, the game was pretty stable. With 7th, GW started expanding each army with every re-issue of their armybook, releasing brand new unit and rescuplting old ones. That edition moved the game towards a larger scale, but it was still doing fine - people brought Ogres and Demons because they were new, Elves because they had all new units and finally updated models and rules, and so on. Power creep became much more of a thing and competitive play supported it. So, lot of new things, lots of people buying it. With 8th, prices spiked up, melee infantry became much more important even for non-defensive armies, rules encouraged to make huge hordes which required two boxes or more to assemble, and fuckhueg monsters showed up. It was a horrible maneuver overall: old players had already probably renewed their collections in the years of 7h-early 8th, and new players were discouraged by the even higher entry price. Rather than trying to bring in new players, GW tried to squeeze as much as they could from old ones by raising prices and favouring the new monster toys and larger infantry formations, but they could only get this much out of them and this alienated possible new players even more.
AOS could have been a great maneuver, but its fluff and design alienated most of the old guard and doesn't seem to be overly appealing to new players, and it doesn't have good enough rules or sculpts for its price.
>>45284366 It isn't, and I'm pretty sure I never wrote this before. Coincidence?
>>45284573 A matter of taste I assume. Surely you can't play with 200+ dudes against 200+ dudes comfortably on a 4'x6' table, but 100ish vs 100ish works finely. Of course it's a different experience from 5 or 10 mm, but this doesn't mean it can't be good.
>>45285399 Irate much? Jimmy Rustle? Tell you what though, you don't have to believe it, you'll find out soon enough. In fact, without giving too much away, when would you expect a new edition of 40k? Every 2 years roughly?
>>45285951 Well, the guys say that the company is killing his customer base too, and is generally pretty critical towards them. http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop:-testing-goose-killing-theory
1) Fluff. At the moment there's fuck all because they only release new stuff with each batch of army releases every 6 months or so. Compared to the 35 years of fluff they just removed. They need to release more books and just put up some free fluff on the internet or w/e. At the moment there's no real universe to play in or way to really theme your army as yours. 2) Points cost. We all know this one. At the moment it's damn near impossible to get a good pickup game going without it. 3) Joke rules. Remove them.
>>45276831 You can make it in a month, or in six if you need to, and *then* release the game. Nobody was forcing them, End Times was selling better than late 8th, and AOS hasn't been prepared in a day. Well, with how bad it turned out, it *might* have been designed in a day.
>>45272644 >How could you fix Age of Sigmar? >Is it even possible?
No, because from GE's perspective it is not broken.
AoS is not meant to be an actual tabletop game.
It's only meant to hang together long enough to get little Timmy through his demo game and sell him a starter and to serve as an excuse for the manchildren model collectors GW targets to build armies they will never actually use.
GW doesn't WANT an active playerbase. They literally fired their WHFB customer base because they resented them as whining deadbeats.
>>45272836 >It doesn't need to be fixed because it isn't broken. If you think it needs to be fixed, it just isn't the game for you.
OK faggot, you need to lay off the trendy relativism. We have been over this for months and months, there have been thousands of words posted proving why AoS is objectively stupid as a system.
This limp "i-i-i-it just isn't for you" cop-out is horseshit and you know it. If you can't defend your shitty game properly, don't bother trying at all. Your post is so devoid of anything meaningful or arguable that it's basically shitposting.
>>45287797 Hey, if you have no semi-objective argument, then stop arguing for AoS. I personally think roller coasters are the height (hue) of fun. I don't try to argue to people that roller coasters are the bestest ever because of a subjective quality.
>>45287769 he does not ships internationally(aka no USA), does not have a website and i order trough facebook. At work atm, may post proof tomorrow if ill remember to. he has a game store somewhere i think. And yeah, i basically bought an entire ad emch/skitarii army from him, also made a pestilens army for AOS-I think stores get 40% from GW price, so basically selling at 30% he only gets 10% value but has a LOT more clients. I myself wouldve not buy that much stuff if it werent for the discount. Stormcast may be pricey as hell, but plague monks are still cheap, and with 30% discount I made an entire Aos army with 50 bucks.
Back to original topic, i am one of the ones who actually does enjoy Aos. I can understand the 4 page rule thing-i like it actually. The free warscroll is great too. the big problem is the vague ruling and shitty rules.
I mean, fuck, they just needed 3 more lines to make the game better(to play like i play it, basically). You don't want to assign points to models? make a "warscroll value"that ranges from 1 to 3. Like, since we were talking about skavens: 10 plague monks? one warscroll. 1 plague priest? 1 wasrcoll. Blightkings? they are a lot more string than the regular unit, so a warscroll(5 models) has a value of 2. That would have been so fucking easy. They didn't want it to be on their base game? Fine, then make a 5 page supplement named ADVANCED RULES and there we go. Easy as shit. Summoning too. i mean, give at least some boundaries. It doesn't require much. I play with just a few home rules and it's done-its not a tournament game but i completely enjoy it for casual and narrative games. Wich is what i look for so im okay.
I love what's happening at GW. It is an interesting company and I have been waiting to watch it die for many years.
GW works in a complete vacuum. It ignores competition from other markets, ignores other companies and games from the same market, and it ignores its own customer base. It does what it wants. And it did damn well regardless.
Not so sure that's still the case.
In the 90s it was the king. The default table top war game. All other minis games were basically indies under GW's strong shadow. New games will come and go in a few years. Cool games like VOR and other games from that era could not survive.
Until Warmachine actually survived... to me that was the first symptom of GW's decline. It managed to get a foothold and thrived. Wizkid clicky games managed for a while as well. Flames of War get big too.
Sometime after that, even games like Infinity is thriving. When it started out I loved it but thought it was just another cool small game that will come and go like VOR. Fast forward to now and Infinity carved its own piece of the pie.
Now there are so many options for a person starting this type of hobby. Options that are much cheaper and so better for newbies. Options where local metas actually exist unlike in the 90s (at least in my area...)
GW doesn't realize its strength was in that "other players are easiest to find". It never had the best rules. And i doubt anyone chose GW games for how "premium" they are like their CEO tried to justify for their high price; they bought into their own business rhetoric bullshit.
Now, other games have healthy playerbases that grow. while being much cheaper and have better rules. A person is much more likely to start warma or infinity than GW's.
It will be interesting to see how GW will manage in the years to come.
You have no idea what you are talking about. GW's revenue has been falling for several years, and when you consider the price increases they've made in the meantime, you quickly realize that their unit volumes have been plummeting for years.
The fundamental difference between GW and the smaller companies is that GW is structurally incapable of weathering the storm they are well on their way to reaping.
Their fixed cost structure simply cannot withstand the kind of unit volume declines they are experiencing in the long term, the last few reports have shown that they are beginning to run into the hard limits of cost cutting.
Unfortunately, GW is already path committed as their game are totally dependent on network effects and they have already alienated so much of their customer base that it is probably too late to stop the trend towards sinking below the critical threshold and collapsing a La WHFB.
Just look at the online 40k community's massive contraction in the last few years. Look at how desperately BoLS is trying to diversify their clickbait away from GW and 40k.
>>45291995 >Just look at the online 40k community's massive contraction in the last few years. GW's disdain for online communities and trigger happy lawyers shutting down fansites hasn't helped either.
AoS release was a complete clusterfuck. Why focus only on Stormcast? Yes they are the new boys in town but people now have the mental image of Stormcast vs. Chaos in some ill defined universe with all other races being shoven aside.
If anything they should have at least got every factions fluff and their current state explained. Asking for starter boxes for each faction with maybe a new character model would be much to ask, would have done a lot to make the start of the system less idiotic.
>>45272896 I lol'd over this. Hard. these are the most posted complains over aos models: >they dont have enough details! look at the sigmarines! So bland! >there are too many details in aos models! Look at the sigmarines! They are shit! really, come on. As for the lack of named character...people are complaining in other threads that OH MY GOD, HOW I AM SUPPOSED TO MAKE MY OWN CHARACTER IN AOS SETTING? ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO FEEL EMPHATY!" And, of course, now its the opposite thing.
Srsly, Aos has a LOT of flaws(big ones too), but we are just scratching the bottom of the barrel here just to be on the "i hate aos"wagon.
>>45294337 >>45294418 People kept telling me that, then I go to actually buy and make a list, and it's oh you need X, Y, Z to augment the starter list to actually be competitive with the lists we've got. I can see in a few months someone will splurge and upset the meta for the rest of us at the LGS, then I have to buy new stuff too. I don't like combo-oriented games for this reason. Should be in CCGs and stay there.
>>45294527 Now, there is a third option. Does your LGS have a Warhammer Fantasy group? If so, there's an okay chance that they haven't stopped playing Fantasy. If so, you could build an army and play. However, (unless you play Empire) it will be expensive.
>>45294425 No, you don't NEED anything in Infinity. Obviously a starter is just a starter, augmenting your list is obviously the next step if you like the game. But there aren't any must haves. Its all really about what or how you want to play.
>>45294594 >unless you play empire, it will be expensive My Ogre kingdoms army cost me like 260 dollars, it is the basic "2 battalion box, 2 mournfang boxes and one slaughtermasters. " which is pretty great.
>>45294732 I'm really not looking forward to what they're gonna do to my poor rats once it's their turn to get their new "armybook." They already purged the names of all our special characters on the store...
>>45294231 You get a starter box for roughly $50. If you want one of the factions in the VS boxes, lucky you - you get two *bigger* starter boxes for less than $100. If you can get your hands on an all-in-one army box, you can get a tournament-size, competitive list for roughly $130. You can assemble a 35 points list without any of these boxes for roughly $160-200, or for the same price get an army box + enough extra to build several different lists. Not entirely cheap, neither entirely bonkers. Far cheaper than 40k and far FAR cheaper than Warhammer was. (To be fair though you aren't getting many models. For example Legion's army in a box has 6 models of infantry, 3 infantry solos, 1 light warbeast, 3 heavy warbeasts and a warcaster. Infantry and cavalry is stupidly expensive)
>>45294811 Judging by the fact no one is playing it, and they are pretty much doing a "hahaha jk here's specialist games back." Thing (unless that changed and I've been out of the fucking loop for so long.) The damage to the skavens have been done. what is this Mayan/Aztec dwarf bullshit they're doing now?
Players is not a problem even in my shitty local meta ( where you used to find only GW PPL for tabletop, only DND for RPG, and only magic and yugioh for CCG back in the day.) There are local infinity players in this shitty meta.
The fact of the matter is I'm gonna keep buying 40k and, if AoS gets a second edition with actual points costs or army formatting that is remotely sane, I'll give that a try as well. I can't do Warmachine anymore, the meta, the try hard attitude, the tournament scene, the roller coaster of model quality, everything about it doesn't do anything for me these days. Combine that with their release cycle (though Ido appreciate them updating ALL FACTIONS AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME MAYBE TRY THAT OUT GEE DUBS??) and their own attitude toward it, and scenario play, further kills it for me.
No one plays Infinity here and those who have expressed interest are bothersome.
Kings of War picked up the handful of WHFB players and they'll all perma-buttmad GG ragequit who act like children mid-game yet have enormous disposable income to throw away on it because they think eating Ramen noodles and spending their wages on plastic army men is a sound financial investment.
That leaves uh.. 40k, which I enjoy. And Maulifaux, which has some really creepy mouth breathers playing it. So yeah, 40k it is.
Infinity has been a hard sell in my area outside of one store and I don't have the time or resources to get a demo box assembled, painted, and show up weekly or twice a week to run demos and kick start my own community. I work 60+ hours a week I'd like to just be able to come into the store 2-3 times a month and get a game on without needing to worry about stupid power combos or not being able to find players at all, or forced to play someone who's a mad competitive ultracunt.
>>45284150 >same mistake that White Wolf made with NWoD and WotC made with D&D 4e, and look at how well those did. But WW and WoTC turned broke ass shit with no balancing mechanics using "tell a story/forge the narrative" into well built gameist games. GW did the exact opposite of that.
The stupid TLOS and 'measure from weapons' garbage was them being lazy and making concessions to WHFB models being on square bases. I think once they've finished rebranding and packaging everything, and overhauling the more important army lines, they'll probably drop it and assume everyone has round bases now.
But seriously fuck TLOS. Why does GW hate codified model profiles? It would do a Lot for their shitty games.
>>45294973 >Not entirely cheap, neither entirely bonkers. Far cheaper than 40k and far FAR cheaper than Warhammer was.
Are you implying that WHFB was more expensive than 40k? Because that wasn't the case at all, a WHFB army at 2400 points and 75-125 models costed less than a 40k army at 1850 with 50-75 models (except if you played an all tact marines shit army). Take a look at the costs of Eldar, 5 28 mm infantry models for 20 quids, that buys you 16-20 core infantry for whfb, 25GBP for 3 jetbikes which you routinely use 18-24 of, I'm not even going into wraith knight territory that costs more than a WHFB battalion that has 40+ models; or just add up the 8+ 'free' rhinos you get for a Battle Company
The time to paint nearly twice as money models was the downfall of WHFB, the time investment cost was way higher thank 40k eventho it was cheaper model-for-model basis
>>45294021 I agree, I have never been a fan of fielding named characters as HQs, it pushes you into a mold of established canon.
Now I've never played WFB, or even held a single model of it, but AoS desperately needs a dose of creativity. The reason the factions are so bland is because they leave little room for non-canon. Sure your sigmarines could be red and black and wield katanas, but then they wouldn't be sigmarines. They have a set personality and look, even without special characters, you'd be hard-pressed to create your own lore that fits in universe.
Then you have the power players, Nagash, Archeon, Sigmar, Horned Rat. Their armies are literally, "minions of said commander." No personality, no depth. Why have special characters when they are just wimpier versions of their leader?
>>45272644 Cut out half the hammers and replace them with skulls and weapons other than hammers.
Also bring formations back as a squad ability that gives a bonus against morale penalties for being outnumbered, I want dense formations of golden armoured myrmidons struggling against a seething tide of ratmen, plundering interdimensional berserkers and nurglings.
>>45272644 It's Dallas series nine time, Karl Franz wakes up in the shower and realises it was all a dream. Gets ready to go out for dinner and opens his balcony window just to make sure Altdorf is fine. Tells Balthasar all about it and they have a good laugh.
>>45272644 Yes...you stop and have a gentlemanly talk about what you want your scenario to beand then play the game so that BOTH of you have fun. Too many little asshats who only want to win or care if THEY have fun have ruined these games.....
>>45303592 But dear Anon, AOS doesn't work as a game, and saying "Sort out how to have fun and balanced games by yourselves, it's not your job" is not exactly how you resolve these gaming problems. If you were bright enough to stick your head out of your buttocks, you would have already understood it.
>>45303748 Oh yes.....fair and balanced.......what EVERY war scenario has.....
look up Rorke's Drift sometime...or Thermopylae.... or the Gulf War..... or... or.... or...... AoS works fine as a game when two friends try to drive a story. 40k doesn't work as a game either if you want to get down to it...most of what GW sells doesn't.
>>4530393 I'm the one who just posted about Rorke's Drift...
I have played GW games since you could find the Rogue Trader book and Space Marine plastic box set in Walden Books in the malls....I have spent a LOT of money on GW....I also quit GW for a long time when they killed off the Squats....these games were never meant to be tourney games. The tourney mentality is what has screwed up the community for them
>>45303936 Anon, these are not even arguments. You could as well be saying "I don't see why people bitch about martial classes being inferior to spellcasters in D&D3.5, it's not like swords versus magic would be a fair fight."
Also all these fucking ellipsis. My God, are you 13?
>>45304067 LOL. Yes because D&D is fair and balanced too. God, that thing was a train wreck. And, wow, insulting someone for not typing the way you do. Awww, have a touched a nerve? So...me complaining about other people complaining about a GAME is not arguments. You're right. They are not arguments. They are just me bitching about people constantly bitching about AoS. It's always the whole "Waaaaa, I don't like this game, so I am going to bitch about it constantly. If I can't find a topic where people are genuinely trying to discuss the game and like it, so I can whine and complain in it.....well.....I am gonna make another one like the 50 others before it and bitch." I want to like AoS. I want to discuss AoS. But I'll be damned if I can find a single place on the internet that doesn't get invaded by whiney bitchy little asshats who can let someone else enjoy something without trying to tear it down. So I am going to start invading the bitch sessions I find and inject some whine right back.
>>45284440 >Well yeah. Aren't good looking minis the major reason we're playing miniature wargames in the first place.
Are you playing the game because the minis are pretty, not because you enjoy the game?
I mean. I paint and convert and collect the miniatures because they're pretty. That makes sense. I don't play an objectively shittier game because I have a boner for 28mm elves or anything.
I can respect people who say that they genuinely enjoy whfb, okay, lets agree to disagree there, good for them, but someone who doesn't want to try other better games because they're not as pretty baffle me. I mean, fuck, scaling up warmaster and playing it with warhammer figs still ends up being more fun than playing warhammer.
>>45276842 >During a shareholder meeting they bragged about not doing any market research so I sincerely doubt that is their motivation. That was last phase of Kirby's mad rule. I'm pretty sure the new CEO is smarter than that. Shame he couldn't have stopped the whole AoS trainwreck, by the time he took a wheel it was already too far in the making to call off.
>>45304248 This is literally a thread devoted to discuss ways to improve, fix or save AoS, starting from the assumption it has problems. So don't be such a precious sissy princess about people not letting you enjoy your lackluster game, because this is not the right place.
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