You'll niggas don't even update the OP, holy shit
Now everything is Sea Fox property
Old Thread: >>45062956
Interstellar Operations (final build) is out!
Next e-pub is going to be Touring the Stars: Lone Star
/btg/ does a TRO: http://builtforwar.blog(not spam) spot.com/
How do I do this Against the Bot thing?
Can I get an overview of the major factions?
How do I find out what BattleMechs a faction has?
Map of /btg/ players (WIP):
BattleTech Introductory Info and PDFs
Sarna.net - BattleTech Wiki
Megamek - computer version of BattleTech. Play with AI or other players
SSW Mech Designer
#battletech on irc.rizon.net
Because my IS/Periphery force having three MadCats, a Masakari, and a Shadow Cat is totally legit and canon now.
Please, I've got Cam Clarke for that. No, I mean an entire faction of pic related.
We've previously established that the WoB ignores the Clan fleets and SDS because reasons, that they have magic bioweapons, and their ground forces trash those of the Clans because BLAKE ELEISON.
Seriously that's what it comes down to. They don't like the Clans at all, or they like WoB a lot more than the Clans, therefore the Clans lose, end of story. Many threads have been lost, let's keep this one from degenerating so early.
Vorlons from Babylon 5 I guess.
They like giving very vague answers, they made other races psychic to use as tools against the other races, and their ships are absolute bullshit compared to everyone else's.
Well they do have magic bioweapons but I don't see how that's all too important. They could just hit the major worlds with asteroids and wipe all life that way.
When you mention the magic bullet weapons it helps the WoB case but I don't see how they'd survive the inevitable counterattack.
I don't think their attack would be successful but WoB definitely has more a case with an asteroid-flinging ship and magic bullet bioweapons. Sure the Clans have good science but they have little room to afford any civilian casualties. Plus the Society uprising was occurring around the same time.
>They could just hit the major worlds with asteroids and wipe all life that way
in theory, sure.
but introducing "rocks fall, everybody dies" into sci-fi settings is fucking dumb, and it basically ruins the setting, and it's literally an all-faction trump card, so it ain't no arguement
>Plus the Society uprising was occurring around the same time.
Technically, if the WoB is undertaking their Clan attack plans it would mean they wouldn't be undertaking the Jihad, which would likely mean the 2nd Star League is still in place. And that would mean one of the big catalysts to kick off the Reavings would be gone, and if that isn't happening the Society isn't moving yet, the Reavings forced them to come out early.
can we talk about trooper and cav mechs from TRO 3075, 3085 and Prototypes? I think these TROs are heavily ignored
I think people have talked about the 3075 stuff a bit.
The stuff after it doesn't get much play because it has to introduce DA 'Mechs that have really shitty BT stats, and/or is using Experimental/Advanced tech that not everyone plays with.
For carriers, the Union and Overlord are both supposed to have CV variants like the Leopard. Unlike the Leopard, neither have ever been statted or detailed beyond that. Everyone has some of those.
The FWL builds the Leopard-CV, Union (CV as long as you're happy to just replace all the 'Mech bays with ASFs and aren't insisting on official sheets only), and Vengeance.
For assault ships they were building the Intruder and Kuan Ti. Everyone had at least some Avengers and Achilles. The Achilles is a lot better than the others.
The first PWSes are the Nekohono'o and Overlord-A3 in TR 3067. The term wasn't specifically applied to them then, though. At the time military DropShips were either transports or Assault DropShips. The actual designation for PWS doesn't come in until JHS 3070 where it's used to describe what would formerly have been lumped in with Assault DropShips. After that the term is applied to anything that has a Capital Missile Launcher or Sub-Capital weapons.
By the time that PWSes really become a thing the FWL has fallen apart. The RotS and FedSuns have the most classes of PWSes available to them but again everyone has some by the DA.
There have to be people left alive to do the counterattacking
The thing is that it's quite possible for any faction to pull out all the stops at any time. But if the Lyrans try to go all genocidal on the FWL, for example, the FWL has enough strategic depth to survive the first attack.
Meanwhile the Clans have a tiny population comparatively, have most of their people on relatively marginal worlds, and those worlds are few in number. A dozen planetary-extinction asteroid strikes or orbital bombardments or bioweapons or whatever, and they really are truly screwed.
The WoB also has more ability to pull this off than most with its asteroid chuckers and bioweapons.
>The WoB also has more ability to pull this off than most with its asteroid chuckers
This is wildly overstated. The WoB needed at several months just for Erinyes Group to fit the asteroids with their engines and smash just one planet.
The Clans have 42 inhabited worlds. Unlike the Taurians, several of those have SDSes. At any one time there's at least one WarShip in-system for all of them, usually more.
The Clans may not be able to detect Erinyes Group if they jump in far enough away, but it's gonna take a long-ass time for them to be able to set up their asteroid rain. The Taurians and the other Drac planet that got hit also couldn't do anything about the incoming asteroids due to having no SDS and no WarShips. ASF cover might be enough too, a lot of those worlds have ~150 or more stationed on and around them.
Bioweapons are a real maybe. They could work but Clan bioscience is staggeringly good. They already cured a number of plagues in the Homeworlds and had done the same in their OZ.
Ultimately you can set up a storyline where the Blakists win but you need to go a long way to explain why the SDSes and WarShips are being overcome, why Clan science is suddenly stumped, and how the incredibly tiny Shadow Divisions are able to roll up a force roughly equal to the better part of 300 IS regiments.
The Hamilcar is better in a fight than most transports, but it's way more of a transport than the assault ship its TR entry proclaims it to be, especially with that 4/6 thrust. Personally I mentally class the Intruder as a poorly designed infantry transport rather than a assault ship, but at least it has the guns and armour the Hamilcar lacks.
Fair point on the Merlin though, I thought it was a combined-arms transport for some reason.
The Erinyes takes time to get everything together, sure. I'm assuming, though, that they do all of that out of system, then pop in, chuck the rocks, and pop out. Might even be able to time it such that you can have near-simultaneous impacts on a number of worlds.
Bioweapons might be neutralized by Clan science...might. There's that plague that wiped out a bunch of Ravens, for starters. I'm not really up on what the WoB had here or what the Clans can do, but if the WoB has something nasty it could very well kill most of the population before the Clan scientists can figure out what's going on, devise a cure, and deploy it in time to save most people. Especially if they're trying to deal with other things, like incoming asteroids, nukes, etc. If I were the WoB, for good measure I'd drop multiple bioweapons at the same time.
Bear in mind, I'm never going to say the WoB wins neatly. I would expect that their offensive force would be totally gutted. But AFAIK the WoB was planning to take that level of casualties to begin with. It's not going to stop them. For example, the Clanners have a world with a warship guarding it, nothing special. The WoB has a warship of their own jump in and bombard whatever it can while launching fighters and dropships with even more nukes and plenty of bioweapons to salt teh earth for whoever survives the first strike. They may all die but they will very likely totally fuck whatever world it is they're going after.
Whatever happens, it would be a really bad time for anyone left.
>Do the Capellans literally get anything they want?
According to the MUL it is limited to the Suns and Lyrans, but the Lyrans lose all of theirs theirs by 3067.
The Capellans will have to make do with getting the upgraded Achilles out of nowhere (especially bullshit since it was made at one factory before then and was a bitch to deal with due to how complex its drive was and how much strain it placed on the ship), two completely new assault ships, and a WarShip that in its Carrier upgrade can handle a Thera group.
XIN SHENG XIN SHENG MOTHERFUCKERS
and, as a bonus, the MoC, AKA fapcon expansion pack get to magically build two PWS based on a ship that they never produced, as well as having star league dropships literally appear out of thin air.
it's like they aren't even trying to hide it
To be fair that kinda makes sense. Everyone else was getting the Drac Omnis.
A lot of things with the CapCon don't look *too* bad when taken in isolation. It's just that they all happened at once and when you pile them up you get absolute bullshit.
>The WoB has a warship of their own
A lot of their fleet wasn't active at the same time and included a lot of Destroyers. I think their largest class was the Essex. Meanwhile the Clan fleet has a shit ton of Aegis, Black Lion, and Cameron-class cruisers that can literally gut those in one turn of fire and survive whatever the Essex does in return.
The Clan WS advantage is really, really huge. Their designs are just *that* much better, and they just have so many of them.
I was using a Champion 1N2 in a tabletop game awhile ago. I have a question. When shooting the LBX-10 at an undamaged mech, at what TH numbers do you prefer using solid shot, and when do you use cluster?
i.e. if your solid shot TH is 8, do you take the shot with solid, or use cluster for a TH of 7?
On an 8 and with my luck, I don't fire the solid slug.
On a 7 and with my luck, I'll do it if I think I have enough ammo to make it through the rest of the game.
I usually don't fire weapons with less than 15 rounds/volleys in them unless the TN is low, it's an AC-20 and I'm in close, or we're at least 5 turns into a game. IME games usually run ~20 turns if you're fighting to the death.
All the more reason to bondsref yourself?
I kid, I kid. Besides, anything is better than that THE CAPELLANS CAN BUILD SOME 3058 DRAC OMNIS REEEEEE or NO FUN ALLOWED UNLESS IT'S BEING HAD IN MY PRE-APPROVED, 3025 ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION WAY shit.
It's amusing that people bitching about factional posting, PURPLE BURD STRONK, eternal 3025, people wanting more warships, etc are considerably worse than the people who have some cap vs fed ribbing, talk about how warships could be more prominent, 3025 play, or whatever other thing people want to talk about.
It's like saying water should be pure and to make sure it is we're going to fill it with chlorine.
He's mad that people are pointing out that he's shitposting and not contributing.
So in order to avoid the fuckface calling me a hipocrite, how about we get to designing some random mechs, since we haven't had a design challenge in forever?
The linked attribute save thingy where you start for determining skill TNs is what, 18*-(Linked Attribute + Linked Attribute)?
So if you have 4 for both and start with a 10+ (18-(4+4)=10), increasing one attribute by 1 point will drop it to 9+ (18-(4+5)=9).
If your skill is 3 and your base thingy is 10, your final base TN is 7+. Increase one attribute by one and it drops to 6+.
*IIRC it was 18, any way.
Haven't seen any of that for quite a while, and at its worst it was still better than the people who are so paranoid about it happening they go into crisis mode there's the slightest hint of people talking about it.
I'm a Capellan fan and while yes I'm breaking silence this time usually I never bring it or the faction up because for some reason House Liao is almost as triggering to folks here as the Taurian Concordat.
Wow, it's been forever since I held actual dice. So much of my gaming happens on-line these days.
Type: 10, 'Mech
Weight 9, Heavy
Required 6, TSEMP
Mixed Tech: 5, Yes.
FUCK YOU DICE WHY DID YOU NEVER ROLL LIKE THIS IN REAL GAMES
But here, have the Guillotine "Révolution Française."
Built for the FWLM with assistance from the Diamond Sharks, its job is to incapacitate and decapitate enemy 'Mechs.
And this is what I came up with. And the reasoning for each bit of retardation on this thing:
>XL gyro because ABA means you won't get fucked by TACs as much, so you can save some more weight with the XL gyro
>Magshots because, again, less likely to be TACed.
>Tcomp because that's the only advantage magshots have over SRMs.
>TSM because the Tcomped Magshots make nicely accurate heat control
>ERMLs for baseline heat generation
>BC3 because this thing is a drac mech (nobody else bothers with ABA) and going to get close, so you might as well get a spotter out of it.
>45 tons because Drac TSM = Sword, and 45 tons is an optimal point for the sword relative to the hatchet. Also it had to be a medium.
And all that totals up to an absurd BV, somehow. Possible variant would be to swap the BC3 for AECM and a normal C3 slave, and/or upgrade the ERMLs to clantech models. But since both of those make the BV even worse, I avoided them.
-2 to the crit roll for TACs and penetrating ammo types (AP autocannons, tandem-charge SRMs, etc...). Means instead of rolling 8+/10+/12+ for 1/2/3 crits, they need 10+/12+ for 1/2 crits from those hits. Since most of the ammo types that generate free crit chances also have their own -2 to crit chances, this will generally make it so they need a 12 to get a free crit.
Not at all worth the loss of 25% of your armor per ton, or the BV increase, but it's at least somewhat useful. Far better than heat-dissipating armor, at least.
No, that would make it useful. Hardened armor gives the exact same penalty to crits and gives you better protection per ton, at the cost of the -1 running MP and +1 to PSRs. For vehicles, who ignore the running MP penalty, there really is no reason to use ABA.
You guys talk about having to listen to Medron in the OF threads. Try playing with Medron for /years/. Only reason I'm alive today is thanks to the intervention of a bottle of Jim Bean and half dozen crushed up Oxycotin.
According to Paul, who I assume is Paul Sjardin, it was deliberately designed to suck.
But then according to Paul so were RE Lasers. And look how that turned out.
Honestly I think if Heat-Dissipating armour was fixed there would be a MASSIVE backlash of >muh Capellan fiat. I would be completely fine with Heat-Dissipating Armour being available to tanks and making them invulnerable to Infernos and a lot less vulnerable to Plasmas, that seems like the most sensible place to have been using it anyway.
General question: I haven't had time to go through IntOps what with getting the first game of my campaign off the ground later today; do the rules for mercenary unit creation (replacing those from FM:Mercs[r]) appear in IntOps,or did those get pushed back to a later book? I remember having some major interaction with Cray about them a couple years ago when he was drafting them, mainly pointing out stuff like "how many officers actually go into a unit" and some math issues.
>how many officers actually go into a unit
This has bugged me extraordinarily over the years, and the feeling returned yesterday when I was going through FM: FWL. There were still triple-hatted regimental commanders. Being the Regt OC whilst still being the OC of the 1st Bn and presumably the 1st Coy as well would be like juggling chainsaws.
I still think companies should be fourteen 'Mechs.
Damn. OK, I'll make a note for 2018.
>I still think companies should be fourteen 'Mechs.
My close comrade of Royal Canopian descent
I know EXACTLY what you mean. Armor organization definitely has some advantages. I understand that it's generally unreasonable to have expected FASA to do something like "a command section unengaged in combat can add initiative modifiers to its troops" or something from the very beginning of the game, because a) there weren't enough Mechs in the original fluff to justify somebody taking up a Mech just for CO duties, and b) they didn't realize how long the game was going to exist and how deeply people were going to analyze this stuff.
But I would have still liked for at least 1 faction to go to a 4+4+4+2 company organization, and give us some DropShips to make that actually work.
>4+4+4+2 company organization
I could even see four lances in a company, especially if it's a prestigious outfit like the Sorenson's Sabres or a unit known for independent operations.
Three fighting lances to get on with the fighting, plus a command lance with the OC, the 2IC and the assorted hangers-on. You might not need that Jägermech on the field, but having an AA 'Mech covering your HQ/Dropship/whatever against a decapitating air attack is good drills. Or a recce 'Mech you can't put anywhere else in the company because everyone else is riding heavies and mediums? Plop it in the HQ to stay out of the way unless the shit really hits the fan and the command lance has to actually fight instead of leading the fight.
Most factions have at least an independent command lance for the regimental commander. I think some even have an independent command lance for each Battalion.
A lot of mercs don't for the reasons you mention, but the only proper factions (as opposed to glorified pirate lords) that don't are the Dracs and Canopians.
>the Dracs and Canopians
And the FWLM, apparently. No battalion command lance or regimental command company in sight, and this is dated 3059.
Plotline is essentially "The PCs are the Homeworld Clan Watch; a multinational unit of troubleshooters who find trouble and shoot it. Watch what happens to them when the Reaving and Society bullshit breaks out."
Here's the rules packet. PCs get randomly paired off, and bid against each other to play their own force; loser of the bid plays OPFOR.
At least with the FWL while I don't know why their regiment organization chart excludes it there are numerous mentions of the use of command lances for battalions in fluff, and iirc command companies for regiments. If that helps at all.
Here's the Game 1 scenario.
The player with the most VPs at the end of playtime gets to decide which track they take next. The first 3-4 scenarios are "generic" WarChest scenarios so that people can get used to the system and build up a bit of a WCP cushion.
Then the shit hits the fan and they get to start fighting binaries of Septecemias backed up by two dozen Sprites all using Manei Domini cybertech (I should probably read up on what the Society actually uses).
And, speaking of which, I have to get the car packed. BattleTech from 10am-7pm, then ice hockey at 7:30 and 9:45. Long day ahead.
Maybe an error on the author's part coming from that FM:DC was the only other one done yet.
>Armor organization definitely has some advantages.
Kinda depends on what kind of armor org we're talking though.
For instance what I'm used to from my tanker days would be 4+4+4+1. And at battalion level, just the CO and S-3 had tanks. XO's main job at both levels was normally keeping track of maintenance and shit.
However, at battalion level is where you had the HQ company, which while predominantly would be the is where your recon and IDF assets were, and they would be attached to companies or utilized independently as needs be.
So in some aspects I'd say it's not just FASA not realizing how deep people would be analyzing stuff, but them building stuff around the main level the game operates on, and that going higher than company level can get messy on the table. So we end up with companies that tend to include a bit of everything, and act in concert, rather than units built with battalion level or higher OPs in mind and getting mixed and matched as needs require.
Though building house units with high level in mind and designing merc units pretty much as the norm we're used to certainly would have added some flavor too, since mercs often only exist at about the company level so being more general purpose is more necessary.
Shit, that's from the Twilight of the Clans, isn't it? I only went through FM: FWL and The Dragon Roars but there was bugger all on the FWL in there, not even mentions of their battles, let alone scenario orgs.
I've generally run company level orgs with the first lance being the command lance. Like so:
>1st Lance: Coy OC, his wingmate, Coy 2IC, his wingmate or a specialist mech like a big missile boat or a recce unit
>2nd Lance: Lance leader, his wingmate, sergeant, his wingmate
>3rd Lance: Lance leader (the junior subaltern), a veteran wingmate, the CSM to keep the greenhorn lieutenant on the ball, his wingmate
This way, you could see the command lance split into two, with the entire company formed up into two demi-companies, if necessary. Or simply keep the command lance together but in the back with the two fighting lances in the front.
Yeah. I've seen command lances and I believe companies used for the FWLM in other cases so I always just assumed the chart in FM:FWL was a result of FM:DC being the only other printed manual.
I suppose one reason so many mech battalions are simply 36 mechs is because logistically its "simpler" using one Overlord or three Unions to transport it.
Or can you convert ASF bays to carry mechs?
I can't help but wonder what the next set of unit gen rules will operate like; will it be basically upgraded FMMr or something based on CGL's love for extremely abstract point-based stuff?
I don't not believe you, I was more making fun of medron
He strikes me as the sort of guy who cheats. Did he? Also, did he refuse to run anything other than his crazy bullshit AUs? I kinda want to know
He didn't cheat but he certainly bent everything he could towards his viewpoints, min/max'd allot and argued constantly. He did run his some of his AU stuff in addition to his faction in one of the games but the level of detail escapes me given this goes back well over a decade ago.
>Or can you convert ASF bays to carry mechs?
You can, but then you need to- worry about where you're going to put the 18-36 ish fighters that go with your unit. Changing transport bays out for other types of bays or making them into a cargo hold isn't that big a deal in the fluff.
Not really. Turning Points Epsilon Eridani is the most concentrated source I can think of.
The quick version is that Gray Monday completely tanked the C-Bil and, since the Lyrans had heavily invested in the network, their economy as well. ComStar outside the Fortress Republic was basically fucked, nobody knew what to do about the whole mess. HPGs could be restored but would crap out soon after and great care had to be taken to isolate ones that somehow kept working/
Inside the Fortress, ComStar rebuilt their 1st Division, but that... ah.. didn't go so well, see TP: EE.
I actually kind of like the taurian's tank arrangement; three two-tank elements per lance, with a battalion command lance
this way, you have the battalion XO, CO and 4 bodyguard units in the command lance, and in each coy you can have the company commander and his XO in 1/1, who's also the leader of 1st lance, while the other two lances are CO/XO/4 troopers.
eh. one lep CV full of ASFs per battalion is plenty by canon, and it fits with replacing the ASF bays in the unions, leps and Overlords for command units
Time to ask Randal where's ilClan
>mfw trying to decipher all these goddamn military units oh god
Sarna is invaluable but a lot of these Lyrian militia units are either described as "Formed under the auspices of the Federated Commonwelath" or simply don't have a date of formation listed - nor do they have a recorded history prior to 3054. Were they *all* formed in 3054 or so by the FC? Or is that 3054 date due to a 3054 sourcebook somewhere that gave 3054's TOE without mentioning how old the militia units were?
I wanna get a Soviet-style one up. I made one for an infantry regiment once, but don't know where I put it.
>eh. one lep CV full of ASFs per battalion is plenty by canon, and it fits with replacing the ASF bays in the unions, leps and Overlords for command units
Problem is how many extra DS collars it starts to take. The benefit of the Union and Overlord is that they have intrinsic support for ASFs at the right ratio for a unit that size.
A normal Regiment with command elements could have been transported in as little as four DropShips- 3 Overlords, 1 to each Battalion, and then a Union to carry the independent command Lances.
Remove the ASF bays and not only are the DropShips a lot more vulnerable to enemy attack when they're going in, but you need at least 5 collars for that setup- 3 Overlords with the command element mod (they have 6 ASF, you only need to replace 4) and then another 2 Leopard-CVs to makeup the difference.
With Unions it starts getting really unwieldy. Normal Regiment + Command Lances: 10 Unions, ASF element covered.
With command element mods, you have to split those over 2 Unions because they each only have 2 ASF bays, and not enough cargo to work with. This does reduce the Unions you need for transporting 'Mechs to 9, but only 1/3rd of the group has ASFs so you need another two Leopard-CVs.
Getting a hold of enough DropShips can be a bit of an issue, more so for mercs. Thereal crunch point is JumpShips.
When a force that could have been moved in two Merchants (3 Overlord + 1 Union) now needs 3, that starts complicating things.
Honestly I prefer to stay with normal DropShip layouts.
Given the opportunity to build customs I'll instead increase the mass of canon DropShips, keep their transport capacity the same, and give them cargo bays large enough to support the forces they're carrying.
At least the TR 3057R gave the Leopard enough cargo for the crew to have enough consumables not to die on the typical transit run, that was a hell of a thing.
Lyran March Militias? I don't know precisely when, but those are like 99.9999% likely to have been formed after the FedCom merger and modelled on the Suns' existing Marc Militia.
Some got annihilated or nearly so in the Clan Invasion and might have been decommissioned and reformed/newly made to replace lost units in 3054.
Hard to say without more detail, which units are you talking about specifically?
That old Sov org chart reminds me of another thing that's bugged me with the BT orgs: take a look at the logistics units at anything below a division. There's a platoon at battalion level, a company at regimental. Everything below a division in the Sov army depended on the parent unit pushing supplies up to it, and as a result the main tactical units (or "sub-units" to use the quaint Russian term) had little capability for anything resembling prolonged independent ops.
Then look at BT orgs. Where are the supply units? It doesn't bother me they don't get the limelight, since the people of no tactical importance rarely do, but they should at least show which level gets what support. Does a company commander have his own little supply platoon to give him the beans, bullets and brew supplies or does he have to beg Bn for it?
Good point on the collars thing, I hadn't thought of that.
As for mercs, I figure that a Mule is basically perfect for about 90% of merc units, plus maybe a buccaneer or tank carrier if they're larger than a battalion, since probably 90% of merc contracts don't necessitate a combat drop.
Really, merchant DS are better for merc use basically all the time.
That, and they're a lot cheaper than a union or overlord AND can actually carry spare parts and supplies
Unloading stuff from a Mule takes forever though.
Isn't it something like 1 ton per door per minute or something? Takes like five minutes just to get a Locust in or out of the ship. God help you if you have an Atlas.
Not apply that to an entire Battalion. Loading or unloading your 'Mechs could take 12 hours.
I mean, it's doable, it's arguably economical, but holy shit. Meanwhile an Overlord is empty in about a minute.
My merc unit captured a pirate Monarch (yay, RATs) and I was like, "the fuck am I gonna do with this shit?"
Then I turned it into a flying restaurant for the rich and make some money with it on location, and the dependants and infantry live on it when moving between contracts. I haven't sold it because Monarch captured in boarding action from pirates.
>Unloading stuff from a Mule takes forever though.
Doesn't really matter when you're not in combat, though, which is my point; for 90% of mercs, you don't need to unload that fast, so the mule is the wiser choice
Like the anon at >>45114412 said, often you don't need to assault drop your unit anyway. I've always said the difference between a unit having a Mule or a Union is like the difference between a shipping company owning a general cargo freighter and a Landing Ship, Tank.
Also I love the idea of a pirate Monarch. The modern pirate boss or bandit king has to travel in style.
>Hard to say without more detail, which units are you talking about specifically?
Basically I'm just looking for two things:
1. Second-rate/garrison-quality unit
2. Extant in 3025
I don't know much about the canon "main" units and their reputations, so...
I always figured that periphery merchants probably brought a few tanks (and even conventional fighters) in their cargo bays to set up perimeter security around their dropships. They have the dropships meager armament to rely on during landing itself, and they're unlikely to get hot-dropped by pirates before they can unload whatever they bring - if the pirates are already in-system they'll see them at some point during in-system transfer and once they're on the ground with sensors shadowed, well, rare is the system with a pirate point close enough to let a dropship hit the planet in under a few hours. To say nothing of the communication difficulties in orchestrating that kind of attack with your "eyes" on-planet - it's a five-hour radio delay out to the outside of the gravity well, at least for a sun-like star, in case they wanted to use the in-system jump trick.
Ah. March Militia are a very different thing to planetary militia.
March Militia are actually line-quality units. They're just used defensively and very rarely leave their home planet, let alone their March/Province of origin.
It sounds like what you're looking for is planetary militia, and those aren't listed in the Field Manuals.*
Your standard planetary militia in that era has 2-3 regiments of tanks, and maybe double that in infantry. Retirees from the proper military might add another 1-3 lances of 'Mechs and ASF if you're really lucky.
These forces usually don't matter if line forces are involved. At best they're canon fodder, usually they get ignored outright.
*For the most part. Some line units have vehicles or infantry from a planetary militia under their command, but those forces will stay put if the rest of the unit goes off-world.
That's a really big planetary militia you're describing. Hot Spots has typical planetary garrison sizes: here's the "large" one.
>Your standard planetary militia in that era has 2-3 regiments of tanks, and maybe double that in infantry
I have never heard of ANY planetary military of that size existing after the star league, let alone it being "standard"
The Objectives PDF series also has it's own militia rules. That IS if the poster asking about Lyran second-line units and in the 3025 era meant militia and not just a second tier listed regiment.
Discussing militia and other units other than listed regiments is tricky business. Such forces have varied tremendously over the year from regiments worth described in the 4th Succession era to the much smaller numbers of today. 30 years worth of Battletech means 30 years of different writers, editors and development teams, each whom tackled the subject in different ways. I suggest only that you should use what feels right, given the situation and location.
Aaaahhh, THANK you. That explains a lot. So all I need to do is find a planet that is relatively wealthy and well-industrialized close enough to the Periphery border that it need sweat the occasional decent raid. That works!
*exactly* what I needed, thank you!
>and then a Union to carry the independent command Lances
I get your point about saving on DS collars, but putting your three battalion commanders on one ship sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
>and then another 2 Leopard-CVs to makeup the difference.
Or you use the Union to carry ASFs instead and it balances out. Three dedicated mech carriers and one dedicated aerospace carrier.
But at the end of the day I agree that I prefer to keep with normal DS layouts. Instead of putting all the command lances on a Union I'd make it the dedicated hotdropper to secure the landing zone(s).
I have no doubt I'm the first to ask this, but does anyone else think the warship construction rules seem kinda broke?
Like the connection between structural integrity and armor. Things just seem funky.
Anyone else have thoughts on said construction rules?
>Changing transport bays out for other types of bays or making them into a cargo hold isn't that big a deal in the fluff.
You can trade vehicle bays in for anything, but there's some fluff about 'Mechs and aeros being harder because 'Mechs occupy a "tall" volume and have ramps to the ground, whereas fighters occupy a "flat" volume with no ramps.
A few dropships have bays which are known for being easy to reconfigure, but I forget which.
>A normal Regiment with command elements could have been transported in as little as four DropShips
They normally aren't, though, because it's risky to put all your baskets in one egg.
Is the "armor support" rolled per 'Mech company, or does Hot Spots really think there are more 'Mechs than tanks in the universe? Because the latter would be strange and wrong.
The number of "standing" regiments is probably smaller than the number that can get raised during something like the 4thSW. So there's room for variation even within any single model of militia sizes.
>You can trade vehicle bays in for anything, but there's some fluff about 'Mechs and aeros being harder because 'Mechs occupy a "tall" volume and have ramps to the ground, whereas fighters occupy a "flat" volume with no ramps.
Either way, I'd imagine it's a flat C-Bill fee up-front to modify the dropship for this or that task. Switch some cargo doors to devoted ASF/Vehicle/Mech doors, with all the equipment needed for rapid off-loading, and you're good.
What defines a military dropship, more than just the cargo bay configuration, is the armoring, weapons and sensor systems (and probably the main drive power and structural integrity) that allow it to be survivable during approach, planetfall and landing.
>not playing mechs as they were designed
>refusing to play unless you can have a 5/8/5 clan targetting computer + pulse lasers
shitty player pls
>literally an autistic furry who only plays minmaxed shit
Held CBT demo games, and people are coming back. Success!
They don't understand shit behind the lore as it is 'too complex' but like the actual game, which is a good start. Usually it's the other way around.
MG knees STRONG. Need MORE.
literally gay bar regular itt
OYH ROB MOSELEY, SHUT YER GOB, THIS GUY DID GOOD WITH ALL HIS CARTOONS SO FUCK OFF
>he doesn't play multiple eras
>he doesn't play multiple factions
>he doesn't play different strategies
>he limits himself and he's proud of it
it is like you don't even like the game, anons
Rob Moseley here, ur a rite fascist gobshite.
Re: min-maxing though, it's not really a very competitive game in the first place. It can be fun to have Crusaders explode every now and then. Most Clan designs are kind of boring compared to the more volatile IS ones, though it's not like they're completely without their own turkeys. Loki and Thor in prime configs are good examples.
It's funny how people complain about there being too many different equipment options, but if you play clan and mostly use clantech, you don't have much more on your plate than pure 3025
they complain there are too many units too
they say it is too hard to keep track of them all
kinda ironic considering kids know all the 721 pokémon, a shitload of attacks and abilities and they still want more while the old battletech fans think 50 mechs and 20 weapons is enough
>there's literally nothing wrong with mental illness
What are the various faction's field rations probably like?
I know the FedCom supposedly had awful food.
Marik food comes in a massive numbers of types, and there's lots of it.
Lyran food is shit unless you're an officer.
Cappie food is shit even if you're an officer.
Drac food is an imitation of Japanese traditional food. Boxed sushi and the like.
No real rations aside from imported fedsuns and drac MREs; mostly whatever home-cooked food is around; probably lots of mutton, beef and bread-based foods
Varied, but there's not enough of it unless you're a woman, officer or both. Lots of imports from the taurians, FWL and capcon.
After the capcon takeover, replace with rice, amphetamines and unicorn dust
Pork and beans, beef jerky, corn and potato-based foods. Some units hold the dubious distinction of being the last remaining "regular" units to issue QN alcohol ration
Other people's beef, wine, potatos and bread
>what is the Field Manual series
Several units in each book have their conventional support units coming from planetary militia. formations that size are hardly unusual.
War of 3039 also has similarly-sized formations mentioned in its combat reports, either resisting an invasion or being bought in to garrison captured planets.
It also doesn't mean those formations are parading around with Alacorns and BA. They've definitely got shit-tier equipment. The vehicle component will be lucky to have anything bigger than a Vedette and the whole group will break if faced with pitched combat.
The problem as >>45115551 says is that it varies wildly from source to source. Then it might conflict with Hot Spots or Objectives. Then it might clash with what seems to be possible due to FASAnomics. Etc etc etc.
The armour/SI linkage doesn't bother me. If there is no hard limit on how much armour a ship can have, the low mass cost of armour means that you can really pile it on. WarShips over 250kt can get a 1:1 mass to armour point ratio with Lamellor Ferr-Carbide. Have a look at some of the Star League ships and their cargo allocations, imagine how many armour points they would have if they devoted half their available cargo to armour instead. Fuckers would be unkillable short of a lucky nuke roll, a Vincent that still had Ferro-Carbide armour would average over 6,000 armour per facing.
For the rest of it, that's what you get from a system that was created after the first WarShips were given stats. On the one hand you can actually explain the SLN doctrine to a degree- their WarShips are supporting a lot of Achilles, Titan, and Vengeance DropShips on long cruises, and you can get out of it that way.
The system visibly starts to break down with some of the 3057ish designs that start carrying less cargo and more guns and armour (Kirishima, frex) and is totally gone when vessels in the '59+ era like the Mjolnir, Avalon, Leviathan II/III, and Conqueror are OOC min-maxed to hell and gone.
It's clunky, but it has a certain charm as long as you don't go full min/max with it.
>invents a new weapon type, presumably restricted to his special snowflake faction
>they're 2.5 tons, and do 7 damage
>armour comparable to SL Destroyer/Heavy Cruisers
>weapons comparable to SL Destroyers
>ASF equivalent to a SL Battleship
And this is totally reasonable and plausible for the Taurians of his AU, because TAURUS STRONK.
Fuck this shit. I'm getting a drink.
He does class it as a destroyer. And to be fair in a small way, all that extra armor, weapons, etc is a result of the OOC minmaxing era you mentioned above.
On the other hand while retarded for the TC it has inspired me to play with the Vincent to create a new variant for a faction that can actually support warships.
You can do a fair bit with a Vincent, it's "smart modularity" fluff even suggests there might have been more going on. Particularly with the idea that there's 40 marks of it we haven't seen stats for.
If you want it to be (semi)-realistic I'd avoid doing much with the armour or engine, those are supposed to be major modifications going by the Kimagure/Conqueror fluff. Adding DS collars is probably out but you could give it DS internal cargo bays instead.
Weapons... eh, you have the tonnage, may as well go nuts with it.
Could work as a light carrier, you can fit 54 or so ASF onto it without reducing its cargo that much, and the canon factions that had Vincents definitely had the resources to modify it like that.
I'll stop staring over your shoulder and making "helpful"
ANNOYING AND OBVIOUS AS FUCKsuggestions now though.
for the only time in my life I'm going to use the words "in fairness to medron pryde", because i've dug through his crap in the vague hope that there was something worthwhile, somewhere, and the WarShip stuff is the only part of his nonsense with any redeeming features at all. none of the features of the warship in question are in any way unique to the taurians; most of the 100kt+ warships in the setting consist of old destroyers and corvettes cheesed out and minmaxed; the lyrans get a 425kt destroyer with TWO LIGHT MASS DRIVERS, for example
I was considering modifications to the armor but not SI. Didn't have anything planned with the engine but will add a LF battery.
A docking collar was on my mind but actually you make a good point about simply adding the ASF to it directly (which is the only reason I'd add a collar).
Weapons are a big point, I'm thinking of making it a pocket destroyer.
Plus it will travel as a the lead vessel of a squadron of PWSs, assault and carrier DSs.
It'll be one of a kind within its story, not the start of a mass-produced class.
>the lyrans get a 425kt destroyer with TWO LIGHT MASS DRIVERS, for example
I don't think you get to use "min-maxed" and "mass drivers" in the same sentence when you are talking BT.
I dunno, dude. Those ER Light PPCs are maximum bullshit. 2.5 tons, probably 2 crits, 7 damage, 9 heat, and a range of at least 8/16/25?
I've seen him sperg out about Clan tech ruining the game , but that's just fine because reasons.
Also you can only have one Mass Driver per ship, unless his are also custom weapons. I would say "and thus better than the canon ones" but we're talking about mass drivers, so that would be completely redundant.
Re-doing all the warships doesn't bother me too much. I've done something similar, except I tried to not bite too deeply into cargo fractions when doing so- increase major bays to as close to 70 damage as possible, replace NAC/35s and /40s with bays of lighter NACs that can shoot further, give them enough heat sinks to sink their entire weapons array, strap on AMS, etc... but at least then the ships still retain their character.
For ASF, sort of. Carrying bomb loads will really slow them down. The advantages gained by having a smaller engine are minimal compared to going faster; you might be able to fit more stuff on.
A 100XL Engine (3/5 ASF) sets you back 1.5 tons, and a 200 weighs 4.5 compared to the 9.5 tons of a 300XL to go 5/8. You probably wouldn't want to use an XL in the 100's case either, those take up equipment slots. In the 200's case you need to stay with the XL, otherwise you should drop .5 of a ton somewhere else and spring for the 300XL.
Slower fighters are also meat for faster ones. A 5/8 or 6/9 fighter's not losing that much compared to a 3/5 or 4/6 one, and as soon as they get into the Aft arc of a slower fighter the difference evaporates totally.
For DropShips, 4/6 is about average movement. You can't really build effect assault DropShips at that mass, PWSes work though because of their weapon ranges and damage.
3/5 is absolutely fine on WarShips. There are some advantages to going faster, especially if you have a lot of Extreme-ranged guns, but as a general rule 3/5 is as fast as you need to go.
oh, yes. he has this great thing in which is eponymous OC goes is very mad about the clans making his family name (which he indigently points out that his family had first) into a prize to be fought over. crack open mercs supplemental and look up the DropShip irregulars, it appears there
>Those ER Light PPCs are maximum bullshit. 2.5 tons, probably 2 crits, 7 damage, 9 heat, and a range of at least 8/16/25?
they are, they just aren't unique to the taurians, IIRC. he's not exactly the best at balance, y'know?
>Also you can only have one Mass Driver per ship, unless his are also custom weapons
yes, they are also custom; they don't get the disadvantages and you can mount two, though they apparently don't have an extreme range bracket
Read the MercSup entry on p. 31.
Medron Pryde is a canon character with a mad hate-on of the Clans and WoB, who managed to fend off elite WoB forces and rescue the equally canon and equally wikkid kewl Rick Raisley.
HAHAHA MEDRON PRYDE SPHERE WIDE FUCKERS
Seriously guys I weep for humanity.[/qpoiler]
>Seriously guys I weep for humanity.
meh, this is really just mid-level autism in a small community. frankly, he could be about fifty times worse and STILL not break the top 100 internet autismal fanboys
Oh. I never really got into forum personalities so I was surprised when I started to learn them here.
I've got Strategic Ops in front of me but can someone with WarShip experience tell me what figures I should look at when changing a warship's engine size? As in what making it larger or smaller will affect besides possible SI? I don't want to miss something with regards to ship tonnage.
You're here forever.
>Wait, this faggotry made it into a soucebook?
fortunately, it was literally the only mention of them until they were unceremoniously killed off in the jihad
>Fuck me, why do I play this shitty game again?
because you enjoy giant stompy robots but aren't a fan of certain form personalities or parts of the setting?
Engine mass is 6% of vessel mass per Cruise Thrust MP. SI maximum is 30 times maximum thrust.
So a ship with a 3/5 thrust profile dedicates 18% of its mass to its engines and has a maximum SI of 150.
you are literally worse than Medron Pryde, you sick fuck
Note that I hate the Jihad, the way it was executed, as a ham-fisted way to set the stage for the pre-ordained dark age. There are salvageable concepts, and I like the Word of Blake... But I think the actual execution was wanting.
If that makes me a sick fuck, oh well.
the jihad WAS shit tho
it was a bunch of contrived bullshit thrown together around wizkid's half-assed darkage setting, which was also shit
in order to accomplish this drastic transition, we got a shit-tier 40kid meme faction literally pulling whatever they needed out of their ass, muh warcrimes bullshit to make everything GRIM and EDGY and HIGH-STAKES
frankly, jihad+DA is worse than anything medron pryde ever came up with
Free heat sinks, yeah. I tend to *really* not worry about that, unless you're designing a 6/9+ WarShip you're gonna have plenty of mass left over to play with.
From a tactical perspective I guess you can consider the ECHO option in StratOps. If you have 2 MP left in whatever Thrust mode you used in your movement phase, you can alter your facing by 1 hex side to the left or right, though you do have an additional +1 or +2 to-hit penalty for doing so depending on whether you used Safe Thrust or Maximum Thrust to ECHO.
It's really difficult to ECHO in a 2/3 ship, but a bit easier in a 3/5 one. 4/6 is about as fast as you can go and still have a reasonable amount of mass for weapons, SI, armour and the rest and gives you pretty good ECHO options.
It also has effects on getting into/out of High-Speed Engagements but those are abstracted to hell and gone. High-Speed Engagements are even more abstracted than Alpha Strike, I guess they're good if you want to simulate the feel of some kind of naval interaction, but they heavily gimp some ships that are good or great in a normal space game while making ones that are ordinarily shit into buzzsaws of death.
Those aren't directly related to construction, but it helps to keep in mind for what your ship will do after it leaves the dock.
The only other thing to really be mindful of with ship construction is fire control mass. You can have up to 20 weapons (AMS and satellite imagers count as weapons for these purposes) for free, but for every 20 beyond that you have to pay 10% of the mass of all weapons in the arc for fire control. So 20 weapons, no fire control. 21 weapons, 10% of the total weapon mass for that arc. 72 weapons, 30% of the weapon mass for that arc. Etc.
Fire control can really start chewing up your available mass, so keep an eye out for that.
there's a large difference between ''there was this big spacepocalypse and that's why all the factories and WarShips were blown up and people don't use nukes anymore'' and leave it at that, rather than ''WARCRIMES IN YO FACE 24/7''
I guess. I don't think too deeply about the fluff though. It's just background noise to my shooty robots. Plus what I recall is the Jihad had plenty of hilarious moments, like the Donner bombing and Waco's last stand.
And now you have seen the joys of dealing with the naval game. Everything is literally scattered across the entire core rule book section except AtoW.
StratOps: Most structural components, including engine, KF drive, SI, and armour.
TacOps: Capital weapons aside from missiles, Lithium-Fusion batteries, Grav Decks, part of what you need for DropShip bays, Docking Collars.
TechManual: Capital missile launchers, crew quarters, cargo bays and compartments for ASF, infantry, 'Mechs and normal cargo
This, BTW, is why I hate the new core rules. TW does have more gear than the BMR, but not much more, ditto AT2 and TacOps for new naval gear.
Now compare the size and complexity of TW, TM, TO and SO to the BMR and AT2. If you don't have AT2, it's like a fifth of an inch thick, tops.
Like what the literal fuck, FanPro/CGL.
Actually, that's my problem with it. The Jihad was pretty weak sauce compared to the succession wars. It seemed like the damage was really localized to the factories and planets they needed to stop existing. It felt contrived, and often forced the Word of Blake into what I felt were awkward and nonsensical assaults.
>and often forced the Word of Blake into what I felt were awkward and nonsensical assaults
Much as CGL pisses me off with a lot of what they do, you can't really blame them for that. They were handed a turd by MW: DA and had to do their best in polishing it.
I wish the Jihad SBs hadn't been as much IC as they were and were better with hard details, but the final result had already been determined and all CGL could do was unfuck as much of it as possible. Given the constraints they were operating in, it wasn't a bad effort. I understand if it's not to everyone's taste in terms of how it was provided to us (I didn't like the JHS model and you can see its influence now in other places) or the edgelord grimdark nature of AND THEN THE ELITE CYBORG LEGIONS OF THE WOB NUKED ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED ON PLANET X AND INFECTED EVERYON ON PLANET Y WITH A BIOWEAPON MUHAHAHAHA stuff it degenerates into sometimes, but they were forced to do it by their liscencing contract.
Doesn't render them immune to criticism, does explain a lot of what's going on.
I didn't like the angle they took with Manei Domini as it's own subfaction.
In my opinion it would have been cooler if cyborgs arose as a result of the Jihad itself, and the longer the war went on the more Blakists would get cybernetics to keep in the fight. To compensate for their small numbers, I mean. So that by the end of the war the surviving Blakists virtually are the living embodiment of the propaganda against them, being merged with the technology they worship and are perceived as alien to the rest of the Inner Sphere.
If you have AeroTech 2 or download it from the MF archive it's a lot easier to deal with, yeah.
For whatever reason CGL decided that the more needlessly complex they could make things and the more books they could split the design and combat rules into, the better.
Cash. It was for cash. They knew they could get more shekels that way, and new porches aren't cheap. Well, Coleman's wasn't.
As much flak as FASA gets for doing stuff that doesn't add up with military sizes or economies or technology, at least their rules were contained to 3 books that weren't bloated by wordy, wordy explanations of how everything worked or pages of fiction nobody cares about. They also had art, and shitty as FASA-era art might be I'll still take that over another still life miniature picture.
Sure you can. CGL is essentially the Wizkids MWDA writers minus Jordan Weisman. Now, I think that IS a notable difference, but their fingerprints ARE on the mess.
I dunno, the Jihad just feels incomplete, hollow. It's like a movie set. Sure, they were left holding that turd, whether they shat it themselves, or were handed the turd isn't terribly relevant.
The problem comes in, when they just did the bare minimum. DA said this factory got trashed? Trashed it gets! DA says this planet got nuked? Well, by blake we'll nuke that son of a bitch even if we have to do a drive-by spite nuke to see it done.
If you don't focus your eyes, it looks real. If you stand at the right angle, the magic picture appears. But if you go behind the set, you can see the timbers holding up the facade. You can see the grip running cables.
They followed the facts established by the dark age like it was a checklist. They didn't enrich it much or embellish it enough to make it convincing to me.
I guess they also had to deal with the way the DA backpeddled like mad from its initial premise.
The way it was when it started, 'Mechs were hella rare due to the devastation of the Jihad and Stone's reforms, armed civilian 'Mechs were filling in.
Then they realised that was retarded and suddenly everyone had hidden real 'Mechs away and were using them again. Oh, and people didn't give a shit about the Storm Hammers or Swordsworn, better get the proper Houses in there...
The DA was just a mess. Anything you do to try and explain it is doomed from the outset. Not much that can be done about it now though, I made my peace with that like ten years ago.
And that could well explain why it came to pass the way it did. Doesn't prevent it from disappointing me.
Perhaps the saddest part of it is that we've been dealing with that mess for half of the game's thirty year lifespan. This began in 2001, and we're still not clear of it fifteen years later.
>Perhaps the saddest part of it is that we've been dealing with that mess for half of the game's thirty year lifespan. This began in 2001, and we're still not clear of it fifteen years later.
In my experience a lot of players dealt with it by just not dealing with it at all. Games set up to and including 3067 were most common for years. With the clicky crap around Dark Age was basically ignored for years.
>CGL is essentially the Wizkids MWDA writers minus Jordan Weisman
Shit, is this right? Is Jordan the reason we got the Dark Age mess? Sorry to ask such a newbish question, but I legit never did understand who was in charge of that magical part of our glorious future space history.
They were basically faction-lite versions of the Lyrans and Suns respectively. Dracs had the Dragon's Fury. They were fighting to gain control of Republic worlds and eventually perhaps force the Republic to return them to their original state.
The way the DA was initially presented it seemed as though most of the Sphere had literally been destroyed and the Swordsworn, Stormhammers, Dragon's Fury and similar factions were all that remained of the Great Houses, Clans, or Mercenary units they were descended from. It really looked as though all that was left of the Inner Sphere was the Republic of the Sphere, hence its name and Stone's power.
We did learn that this wasn't actually the case and that initial material was just REALLY focused on the Republic of the Sphere.
That's still a hell of a first impression to make and try to overcome. I saw the first DA stuff, thought the Houses were destroyed, and nope'd right out. That you couldn't just walk into a store and simply buy the force you wanted to use, you had to buy randomised starter and booster packs meant I was never going to play MW:DA but I would at least have followed the fluff. Except that the fluff seemed to be taking a giant, steaming dump on everything I liked about BT, so...
It may not be 100% accurate, and the shift in who's calling the shots may make all the difference in the world, but given that I've heard a lot of "back to the good old days" talk out of Jordan, it would not surprise me in the least if the Dark Age's attempt at a reboot was his doing.
I mean, look at the Harebrained Studios game, look at the Mechwarrior 3015 trailer that eventually became MWO. Look at MWO at release. they're all succession wars era throwbacks. They all had him involved.
It could also be that the blame doesn't rest solely with him, and those responsible for the mess that was the Dark Age under WizKids have learned their lessons. I don't have any special inside knowledge here, just conjectures.
He was the head of the company. As >>45123886 said, the asthetic of the setting matches a lot of what he's said he wants to do in other projects.
The blame might not be 100% his (you can definitely see Coleman's influence with how good the CapCon is in both the MWDA stuff and in CGL's material) but the buck ultimately stops with him.
>The way the DA was initially presented it seemed as though most of the Sphere had literally been destroyed and the Swordsworn, Stormhammers, Dragon's Fury and similar factions were all that remained of the Great Houses, Clans, or Mercenary units they were descended from. It really looked as though all that was left of the Inner Sphere was the Republic of the Sphere, hence its name and Stone's power.
It's been a long time since I saw the early DA stuff but wow. I didn't remember it like that.
Forever, Lie-ran pig
And despite all that it's still the best era by a wide margin
Gas the Coleman/Weisman, dev war now?
I more mean what they initially put up on their website and Touring the Stars as an introduction to the game.
The first novel probably had different stuff in it, sure.
If you see a movie trailer that's, say, wall-to-wall fart noises and jokes, it'd be reasonable to assume that the movie matches at least that tone if not that content. Whether the movie is actually like that throughout is another question, but if the trailer doesn't sell you on it you're not going to look much further unless it has good word of mouth.
DA didn't exactly have good word of mouth, at least not that I ran into. Everything I heard about it made it sound even dumber.
>And despite all that it's still the best era by a wide margin
Did anyone in FWL, DC, or CC try to bring back the Kapteyn Accords after the 4th Succession War?
On a more speculative note, what do you think the Inner Sphere would look like if the Accords actually worked?
Not really. I think Romano Liao brought it up around the time of the Outreach Conference or something but by then the Kuritas didn't give two shits.
And Thomas Marik launched some raids in the War of 3039 but the Combine lost-won it too quick for anything meaningful to come of it relations-wise. Technically it was still "in force".
>namefag shows up to defend his memefaction with dumb 40kid latin catchphrases
what a surprise
They did, but since the FWL is irrelevant for major plotlines (until the Jihad) and the CapCon (until ~3057) and Dracs (until the DA) existed only to be easy-beat retards you can imagine how that went down in canon.
Plus the other two *really* didn't like the Caps. I don't have the picture to hand but I know someone does. Maximillian Liao is bitching at Janos Marik and demanding aid because of the Kapteyn alliance, and Janos responds by sending him some Prozac, a bunch of MREs that have gone out of date, some Hanse and Melissa sex dolls, and a bunch of left-handed dress uniform gloves.
In an AU, making it so that the Kapteyn treaty being honoured alone is probably not enough to hold the FedCom back. They were already as good as the rest of the Sphere combined until the Clans arrived and started shaking things up a bit.
Guerero on the Capellan front was total bullshit. Over two dozen AFFS units twiddled their thumbs and the units that did fight were soundly thrashed.
The Colemanning, as such, starts there. It got noticeably worse, sure, but the St. Ives War wasn't really the start of it.
Interesting. Thanks for filling me in, even if it's just speculation. It definitely seems to all fall into the "we liked the Mad Max turned medieval knight in crapsack remnants of glorious future" vibe. I dunno, or maybe the best cash flow was during the heyday of the grognards.
Seems like all it did was killed a lot of interesting story progression, in my eyes at least.
now that I'm looking it up again, you've got a point. I've always thought of gurrerro as a more or less entirely FWL thing. but then I started with FM:FWL which obviously didn't have much info on the capcon's part in it
besides which, was coleman even involved in the writing of gurrerro or are we seeing a rare reversal where the capcon's magical abilities/reactions were for SOMEONE ELSE'S benefit as opposed to the usual situation?
As I said, like when Max demanded assistance from Janos and Janos was like "haha get fucked, have a bunch of shit that won't help you at all. And some toilet paper to soothe your assblasstedness."
There was never really much in the way of actual coordination, two thirds of the alliance hated the other third and would have loved to watch them die in a fire, and if the Kapteyn allies actually had made a concerted effort the FedCom is just way too strong for it to really matter. It would at best have been a minor speedbump for the FedCom.
Make it so that the other Houses don't have contempt for the CapCon and everyone at least recognises they have to fight together or hang separately and it might have had some use against the FedCom, sure.
Mostly it was a case of "the other three are trying to copy the FedCom alliance, how cute" at best.
It doesn't really strike me as being for the FWL's benefit. I mean, it did maybe prevent anyone from that region trying to reinforce the Lyran front, but Katherine was in derp mode and thought giving up planets was a political masterstroke that would make Victor look bad, while the AFFC forces on the Suns front just went full retard and forgot not only how to fight but how interstellar travel worked so the Caps could steamroll their way to a massive win.
And you have the answer.
The Dracs and FWL told the Caps to get fucked whenever they asked for help. Military co-operation between the three was virtually nonexistant. Most of the benefit was in trading 'Mechs between the FWL and DC, possibly with some minor technological assistance.
For Katherine's part she saw it as an opportunity to seize control of half the FedCom in a heartbeat. I think her aim was to spin the war as Victor's fault, which it was to be fair, and secure the Lyran state as her power base. It makes sense in a way if we were never expected to believe the FedSuns half would tolerate her for an instant as a ruler, but the Privy Council and Ardan Sortek were apparently retarded.
>Make it so that the other Houses don't have contempt for the CapCon
It still amazes me how the capcon managed to go from being hated by quite literally every other major faction aside from possibly the OA to having their sworn enemies literally dying for their honor in just three years
So when asked about if there was a post-4th war attempt to bring back the Kaptyen accords, why did you say
When you're saying cooperation died in the midst of the war. Did you read the question?
The real problem is that she was in charge of the Lyran Commonwealth.
Given her upbringing was in the Suns while Victor was raised in the LC, served in the LCAF state command, and was most concerned with the Clans it would make way more sense if she was in charge of the Suns while Victor ruled from Tharkad.
The setup is perfect, she can go on about AFFS units dying for worlds that aren't theirs against the Clans, point out that Victor isn't doing a damn thing about the Drac borders, and worse than that is actually banging a Drac princess. You can explain the Lyran front of Guerrero by having Victor virtually strip it to reinforce the Clan border, and the Cap results with AFFS units being paralysed with indecision over whether to accept Katherine as their new ruler, especially since she hasn't completed military service and is styling herself First Princess, or whether to respond to the invasion on their own initiative in the face of instructions to stay at their posts. Especially if you scale back the Capellan gains.
But that would make too much sense, instead we get:
XIN SHENG XIN SHENG
>Did you read the question?
Yes. Did you read my posts? I said they told the Capellans to get fucked and that any other co-operation was minimal, mostly trade and some tech help.
That changes after the Clans arrive, but not because of the Kapteyn agreements. It's because of Outreach and Sun-Tzu's engagement to Isis.
Sure the writing was sloppy and stupid, in part because for the inevitable civil war the writers didn't want to cast Davion units as the "bad" guys for siding with Katherine. Nor would it be believable for them to lose to Lyrans.
Guerrero: See >>45126755.
Post-'58 CapCon arc? Make their capabilities accurately reflect what they're dealing with. Limited factories, and troops that are trained but have no experience, and who are led by the officers that survived Romano's repeated purges. They're a lot more interested in playing it safe and having someone else to blame if it goes wrong than they are being brave or innovative. No magical Talon Zahn bullshittery.
I can deal with them taking the St. Ives Compact back as long as you eliminate the Compact (and other planets) going all XIN SHENG and wanting to be ruled by the CapCon again after multiple decades free of it, Mask purges, and the incredible increase in standard of living they got under the Suns and Candace Liao.
Everything after that is just a shitshow to begin with, a lot depends on if you want to deal with the Dark Age stuff and Jihad.
I think Ben's fine if we demote him and let him be transparent. WoR was a pretty good sourcebook, and he did a great job detailing his process on it. I want THAT Ben back. Not the stressed out, thrust into the lead and ball-gagged cranky asshole Ben.
The only way to fix the CapCon as a whole is to un-Xin Sheng it.
Merciful Christ. How hard is it to understand? The provisions of the treaty were invoked, but the Capellans were always told to GTFO and the limited co-operation of the Dracs and FWL didn't amount to much worth talking about.
Yes. XIN SHENG XIN SHENG!
I legit think he sold his soul to the devil to write one good sourcebook. The other two projects he's had the most to do with, HB: HK and TR: 3150 have largely just been cut-and-paste jobs of earlier products, with a bare minimum of new material.
Just because it's explained doesn't mean it's a *good* explanation.
>hurr I wonder why the Dracs were allowed to build a Spider factory and where the Venom came from
>i also wonder where the League's expertise with PPCs came from and how SN-PPCs, L-PPCs, and H-PPCs were developed
If ilClan is good it gets him back to par. Two good books, two shit ones.
Personally I expect it to be a long ode to Ghost Bear superiority with Coleman forcing him to shoehorn in a Capellan supremacy plot beside that.
Or for it to be an interconnected series of scenarios so that YOU, THE PLAYER can decide what happens from 3150 on, with all hard answers avoided as much as possible.
And then a timeskip to 3250 where everything is so fucked up and no real explanation as to why, here is your much truncated equipment list and simplified rules, enjoy.
Spider factory is retconned in before Outreach. The PPCs are traded to the FWL in secret, much like other trade under the Kapteyn provisions.
Do you really want to keep REEEEEEEing over this and demanding specifics or can you accept that what's been said is accurate enough and good enough for a big-picture answer to the question, or does every tiny little minute aspect of the fluff have to be gone through with a fine-toothed comb and extensively sourced with references before you'll let go?
Personally I don't think it can come soon enough. I kinda hope they don't go 4th SW-grade anemic on the gear list though. I want some variety. And I say this as a 3025fag. There's just a lot of shit the game doesn't need, and as long as that's what they crop out then I'm good.
It would have helped if you'd make accurate posts from the start, but nothing you've claimed is proof of Kapteyn being invoked post-4th war. You can keep REEEEEEEing that your inconsistent posts are accurate but all you've done is waste my time. Just keep your mouth shut next time if you don't know what you're talking about.
The Dracs redeveloped the ER PPC in 3037. The FWL is the next to get it in 3039 (FM Merc Supplemental 2, p.81). The GR intro dates and TM fluff are strongly suggestive of co-operation between the FWL and DC as well.
Then you've got the DC handing their new PPC tech over to the FWL almost as soon as it was developed, and the FWL were noted as being god with PPCs after the 3050s and tech recovery.
If you're that god damn desperate, the Charger fluff specifies that the Dracs were dumping Chargers on the Capellans (and then laughing their asses off) and post-dates the 4th SW. TR 3039, p. 150.
Sure the other stuff is only _strongly_ implied by the text rather than directly stated, what do you want, a medal for hair-splitting?
Both. The PPCs on the Awesome-9M (Fusigon Longtooths) are supposed to be really good. Game stat limitations don't really provide much to back this up unless you start playing with quirks, but that's an issue with a lot of fluff. Personally it doesn't bother me if a weapon that's supposed to make a lot less heat than its competitors (Kinslaughter-H class, IIRC?) generates the same as everyone else and the Dalban Hi-Res targeting computer doesn't provide Clan TC bonuses, I don't really need or want that level of granularity in my games but it seems a lot of players do. More power to them for that, but it's not compulsory.
I will say that the timeskip was the least of the problems with the Dark Age setting. If anything it glossed over some of the cracks because you couldn't examine it too closely.
A time skip in and of itself isn't that big a deal, it's just what comes along with it. I think people are a lot more apprehensive about what will happen to the map, their faction, and technology rather than someone hitting the fast-forward button.
>A time skip in and of itself isn't that big a deal
I dunno, I was rather pissed about it for one particular reason unrelated to the actual post-time skip content: it broke continuity of characters; before the timeskip, it was completely possible to run the same PC clean through from 3025 to 3067, and I'd seen it done a fair bit; characters could have lasted your entire battletech career, you could get ATTACHED to them. then DA comes along and it's all ''lol 70 year timeskip, they're all dead, too bad, have new characters for a new era'' , which is a rather big piss-off for a game where you could have literally followed somebody through it's entire history (Current events History, that is) up to that point
20YU did something similar, all it said was "Don't think of your character as being 20 years older, think of his son being ready for battle."
STOP TRIGGERING ME WITH YOUR PATRIARCHAL GENDER ROLE ASSUMTION SHITLORDS, WHAT ABOUT FEMALE CHARACTERS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS?
Granted the chaos of the Jihad and the way so many characters and units ignominiously bit the dust or acted like total retards to further the DA plot and happened in backstory is definitely still very frustrating.
Probably doubly so for FWL fans who got to think the FWL was finally going to matter for all of two minutes before having their hopes (and faction) destroyed.
I think the fact that the 20 year update generally covered an upswing, while the skip to the dark age glossed over a significant downswing.
I also think it's inevitable that they'll go back to any time period they skipped over, and try to fill it back in. Which has had problems both times they did it. The Jihad's hollow facade was unsatisfying, and they couldn't even get the War of 30309 right.
Why not just move forward without the skip? We've skipped twice.
>does Hot Spots really think there are more 'Mechs than tanks in the universe
Hot Spots thinks both 'Mechs and tanks aren't that common in the planetary garrisons, but infantry is cheap and cheerful so you get loads of it. Note how you can get regiments of squaddies even with the small garrison, but they only get a company of 'Mechs and at best a couple of tank companies in support.
If your character was a 3025 vet they were going to age out into retirement around the 3080s, never mind the 3130s.
I can understand some frustration over not getting to at least see the 3080s before the time skip, but let's be reasonable here.
So what, the BT universe should have stopped at approximately 3080 so that characters from ~3025 would never have to retire or die from old age?
It was gonna happen eventually.
The thing that bugs me the most with the time skip was that they said it was happening to clear convoluted plot lines, introduce new characters, and eliminate dangling plot threads, then immediately introduced convoluted plot lines made more so by the lack of detail from the era, bought back Victor Steiner-Davion or introduced new characters who were just expys of previous ones and threw out a ton more dangling plot threads that they never bothered to resolve and CGL clearly isn't going to either.
eh. if it had organically run that long (which considering the timeline advancement pace post-20YU I'm not sure would have actually happened by now), than it would be a different story VS "oh by the way, your character died of old age off screen. you can totally play his identical grandson tho"
I'm more of a FedCom rather than Davion of Lyran. My Hatred of All Things Liao is really more of a "ain't I supposed ta?" type situation. People who genuinely get angry over it kind of just make me feel confused and embarrassed for my fandom of this game.
This is Godzilla.
He stomps Kurita.
Be like Godzilla.
Hot Spots is a bit of an awkward product as it was part of the 3055 era of releases just before the 3057 era arc began. Think of it as somewhat of a "hide tide" when it came to distribution of certain forces like 'Mechs.