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How powerful are Angels in the World of Darkness?
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I'm just curious how they line up with the other beings and monsters of the settings.

I've been wanting to run a WoD game with my group for a while, and I'm thinking starting my team off being guided by Divine sources. That said, I know my group, and they will end up murderhobos, even in this setting. So they will likely get some visits by Angelic Enforcers.
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>>45041449

So Angels aren't really... statted. But there are demons, which are fallen angels. They are absolutely more powerful than anything else, except maybe a completely bonkers Mage. Most people don't even realise they exist.

Have you ever seen Supernatural? The Angels work a bit like that, possessing people. Or at least the demons do. The angels mightbe/are the messengers that imbue hunters so they do appear if that's them.. but that's more of a mystical dreamlike spirit form? But presumably they can possess people too.

Basically, yes they're crazy strong, your characters probably won't be able to touch them. They might be able to kill the vessel they're in, but the angel would just pop out and find a new one. Also you're the Storyteller, so just say the angels are untouchable. There's not enough info on them for anyone to correct you.

Look at demon and the types of demons and what their apocalyptic forms get. It'll give you an idea about the types of angels they might have been and powers they might have. But you should probably figure out a more... abstract.. method of communication. You could have Gabriel pop down for a chat or you could have a voice on the wind, or a homeless man rambling the Message, etc...
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>>45041449
What's Dr. Doom doing in heaven? He's supposed to be fighting Satan in hell. Or in a time machine looting pirate gold for shits and giggles. Or yelling at spiderman.
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>>45041671
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>>45041449
oWoD or nWoD/CofD?
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>>45041638
They actually get some very brief stats in World of Darkness: Time of Judgement. I don't have it on hand, but If I remember correctly they basically just get ridiculous dice pools and are literally invincible. According to the fluff they are literally the creators of the world and reality.

Also just to be clear to the OP, this is OWoD. NWoD makes angels the minions of the God Machine, so not exactly biblical.
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>>45041691
It's not Doom, look at the face in the 4th panel. Nobody would ever draw the Doom mask like that.

I think it's The Spectre.
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>>45041849
It's Spectre, yeah.

Ostrander writes some based comics.
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>>45041898
>>45041849

Yea I was thinking it was a weird scene, it doesn't really look like Doom, and definitely doesn't talk like him.

>>45041779

Ah thanks, I wasn't sure if it was actually in the books. But yea they're basically bullshit and wouldn't be threatened by anything.

Tho OP if you want the players to fight an angel and have a chance you could always homebrew some weaknesses.
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>>45041734

oWod, going by what >>45041779 says.

I'll see if i can find Time of Judgement, unless someone happens to have a PDF?

>>45041638

Thanks. Yeah, watched it before. I was hoping to go for Vertigo style, but vessals works too, and allows me a small cast of recurring Angels that the party can only slow down. Hm, tough one.

Yeah, demons are something I haven't noticed as much as I would have expected, now that you mention it.
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NWoD does them better.

There are Mages who would think nothing, as in zero conscious thought would occur before the decision was made, of killing every man, woman, child, spirit, and all entities not otherwise described in a hundred mile radius if it meant they could actually talk with a qashmallim in the mundane world, because their very existence violates half the known laws of the Realms Supernal as all parties know them.

They are totally inscrutable to all but the Created, to whom they have some kind of connection, and are thus only incredibly obscure and confusing. No one has ever fought one in recorded history. This does not speak well of your chances if you try.
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>>45041937
>I'll see if i can find Time of Judgement, unless someone happens to have a PDF?

Scratch that. One google search away, and I'm also getting a physical copy pretty cheap. Thankfully it's not one of the books that has shot up in price.

>>45041952

They sound interesting, but i like the classic ideas of Angels. They sound too far away from the original lore.
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>>45041937

Actually having them in vessels allows for more characterization and maybe revealing the true nature over time. You could also have a cool reveal of glowy angel mode later if you want.

You should determine the rules for your angels ahead of time including any weaknesses, and possibly doll out this info bit by bit in case the players have a reason to hurt the angel, or possibly to have the angel in trouble so the players can help it.

What sort of thing do you want the angel do? Just plot hook the players? What are the pc's going to be, human etc?
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>>45042005
>>They sound interesting, but i like the classic ideas of Angels. They sound too far away from the original lore.

Absolutely. Nwod angels aren't even angels at that point. It's a totally different thing going on.
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>>45042015

I haven't really decided yet, it only just occured to me that (due to one of the end scenarios of oWoD involving Judgment day) Angels likely are part of the setting.

I know I'll have to start out with a Hunter game. My group had a tryhard Goth for a long time, and some bad experiences with dice-pool games, so it was a victory just getting them to agree to try out Hunter at some point.

>>45042032

So, nWoD is different on a metaphysical level to oWoD, too? I bought the base books for NwoD and V:R a long while back, but most of my books are oWoD as I appreciate all the lore and sheer scope of it. Plus, I was introduced to the setting by Bloodlines.
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>>45041937
I am a big fan of Demon the Fallen, and I absolutely love its fluff. It makes the war in heaven very morally ambiguous, and lets demons very tragic characters. If you use their rules though (which might be useful for the angels as well) just keep in mind that White Wolf did a shit job of balancing their powers. Some Lores are utterly worthless, while others are amazingly powerful (such as the tree that lets you adjust Physical Attributes however you want for free). Not a big problem if they're all NPCs and you just keep in mind that 5 dots in one Lore =/= the same power level as 5 dots in another Lore.
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>>45042117
NWoD is a total reboot with a reimagined world. They don't line up whatsoever. Occasionally names are reused, but they have no real connection.
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>>45042140
>Tragic demons
>Morally grey heaven
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>>45042117

Well the most important thing is, nobody knows anything about angels in universe, and hardly any players know more than "I think they exist but I'm not sure how that fits in with the wyld/wyrm/weaver thing."

Basically do whatever you want. If they're hunters they each had a messenger at some point so you're going to need to look into how exactly their imbuing works and what happens, what the hunters actually see etc, and decide whether or not that was angels (because again I'm not entirely sure if that's canon or just assumed)

So just make sure you decide whether or not angels are messengers, but other than that you basically have free reign to do anything.

I was once going to run a wod game where the players were angels on earth on a mission. I was going to use demon rules for them just start with 0 torment. The guys thought it sounded lame tho so here we are. Anyway, if you want the angels to be remotely challenged by the murderhobos you might go that route. If someone asks you could always say 'they're on earth so..' yknow? But really you can do literally anything.
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>>45042197

This. Overused trope in fiction these days. Still, may check out the book, as you say, the powers and lore could be an interesting read.
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Well, just bought Time of Judgement and Demon the Fallen. So that's my leisure funds expended this payday. I'm sure the fluff will be worth it, even if my group never use them.
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>>45042197
The story of Demon the Fallen is that God gave the angels two commands: Love the humans as much as you love me, and never ever let them know you exist. The angels grew increasingly distraught as mankind continued to bumble around without ever knowing how deeply they were loved, or living up to their potentially. Lucifer leads a faction that decides rule one is more important than rule two, and its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. So they reveal themselves to the humans, tell the humans how much they are loved, and teach them reason. This is the story of the Fruit of Knowledge. Lucifer and his cohort expected a slap on the wrist, but instead got an ultimatum, "submit to annihilation or it will be forced upon you". On top of that, humanity was given an ultimatum: "Anyone that doesn't allow themselves to be reverted to pre-Reason status will be annihilated". Lucifer and his cohort end up standing their ground on behalf of the humans that don't want to go back to being naked imbeciles, and the war in heaven breaks out.

Of course the actions of Lucifer and co. lead to a world sliding inevitably towards brokeness, aka the World of Darkness, and a good portion of the rebel angels go mad with power over the course of the war. Once they're beaten and are thrown in to hell, the bottom most level of Haven where the rebel angels made an afterlife for humanity...which broke down and became the Shadowlands of Wraith. And hell was such incredible torment that it turned every rebel angel into a twisted mockery of their former selves, demons. To twist the knife a bit, its also brought into question whether this was all planned out from the beginning. God is omniscient right? So he had to have known the angels would break his second command, leading to the rebellion. And who was it that instigated it all? That's right, Lucifer, God's right-hand angel...who was never cast into Hell like all the other rebels.
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I like the idea of heaven being the representation of lawful, not necessarily morally grey or oppressive or evil (most Angels would be considered lg) but with room for law based shenanigans to justify the demons, who are extremely chaotic by virtue of having rejected universal (gods) law. Demons themselves aren't necessarily bad but surprise, complete anarchy tends to lead to madness and.murder more often than not. Hell is an ever changing madmaxian warzone where human souls range from everything to raw material and slaves to valuable guests, pets, or equals depending whose in charge.
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>>45042278
It's heavily implied if you comb through the Hunter and Demon books, but never 100% confirmed. It's been years since I've gone through those books though so I can't really remember it. But I think its Apocrypha describes the Messengers in a way that is a dead ringer for the Ebon Dragon and the Scarlet Phoenix. And I think Lucifer says he thinks those two are angels. I think Lucifer also makes some comment about recognizing the power the hunters wield, but I can't be positive.
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>>45042279
I don't think it's an overused trope so much as a massive misunderstanding by most modern humans living in developed nations.

The Demons seem tragic and Heaven's gang seem morally grey because our morals have changed. We just don't have the same value set as people did in the bronze age.
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>>45042551
This. People read Paradise Lost and day AWWW Satan is so sympathetic!

When the point was that he was a huge fucking douche who stayed stubborn despite god giving him a million chances
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>>45042551
>>45042611

I don't disagree. It's worsened by how smug people are about our morals today, and how 'primitive' people used to be, because we have tablet computers and planes. Society as a whole is apathetic and blind. We spend hundreds of millions on developing movies, whilst veterans starve in the gutters. But 4chan is hardly the place for a pulpit. I digress.

So, that World of Darkness, eh?
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>>45042730
>whilst veterans starve in the gutters.
Funny because what I don't like is the culture that treats veterans like golden gods who can do no wrong. The govt has majorly shafted them and they do a hard job that I respect them for, but they're still just human and a good number enlist for the chance to 'shoot sandniggers'
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>>45042783

Just using them as an example. I'm a brit, and as far as I know that's not really a bigger issue than any other over here. My overall point is many of the old injustices are still as prevalent as they ever were today, and we might even have invented some new ones.
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>>45042730
>It's worsened by how smug people are about our morals today
Yeah, for a board of RPers and worldbuilders this thread >>45005209
proves that the average fa/tg/uy has little understanding of just how unique our society's moral outlook is, and even less understanding of any potential deviation from it.
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>>45042399
>That's right, Lucifer, God's right-hand angel...who was never cast into Hell like all the other rebels.

So, wait, where did he end up then?
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>>45043066
The next closest place.

Downtown Detroit.
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>>45043066
That's the question, really. He's like Caine; some god tier badass supposedly wandering the Earth for thousands of years but you don't hear about him doing a damn thing until the end times.

Also the Messenger spirits that activated Hunters come from Lucifer, he sent them out in desperation during a light show in LA when demon lords were tracking him down. Pretty much a "I'm fucked, battery is at 2%, using it to recruit losers on craigslist", and then he disappeared again
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>>45043066
He's stripped of his power, and turned into an immortal human forced to wander the earth. The angels-turned-demons in Hell see his absence and most come to the conclusion that he betrayed them (two of the three suggestions for Storytellers in Time of Judgment actually say that's correct...but he still got shafted by God). He tries to summon his five lieutenants out of Hell, but they've completely lost it by that time and try to devour him. It's implied that he helped foster early Christianity as a way to deprive Faith from his lieutenants that had established themselves as dark gods worshiped under a plethora of names around the world.
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>>45043201
>>45043235 (Me)

Oh right, he had some power, but had lost most of it. I don't think his reveal had anything to do with the Messengers. It did alert all the Fallen that he was around though. Hunters show up after the Shadowlands City of Enoch got nuked while the Ravnos Antediluvian was waking up and getting nuked in India.
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So, as my books won't arrive for some days and I'm curious, how do demons interplay with Vampires? As in, how does a fight usually go down? Do they even run into eachother much?

Bloodlines is obviously a very watered down and small scale look into the cWoD setting, but outside ghosts, a werewolf, and a few exotic beings (such as Pisha, was it?) the vampires didn't seem overly concerned with demons wandering around in a state much like them, and seemed to put 'divine power' down to the faith of the hunters.
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>>45043201
OK 4 things i want to know....

What does Lucifer think of humans now and what happens to him in end times

what does caine do in the end times and does his brother ever forgives him.

Is the city of enoch still important and how did it get in the shadowlands

what does Lilith think of caine in end times and what happens to her.
(didn't Lilith love him or something)
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>>45042117
Honestly the only thing i really like about nWoD fluff is the changes to werewolf motivation. The psycho-hippie vibe in oWoD never made sense to me.

>>45043500
They rarely run into each other. Most vampires don't even wonder if they exist. They end up getting caught up in the centuries long political games all vampires play to keep from getting bored, and don't pay much attention to the rest of the supernatural world.
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>>45041449
Well I don't recall if demon: the descent explicetly says there isn't an actual god, or if the god machine is just another super powerful force...

In any event, those angels and demons are pretty nasty. Demons are magical Neo, but really don't want to be noticed by Angels. Angels are nasty, especially if they decide to throw down... but generally only give a shit if you get in the way of their mission. So... yeah.

You can also just fiat some stats. Descent is sorta its own thing and you can ignore it.
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>>45043500
Demons show up really late in the WoD timeline, I think they are canonically the last splat to make their appearance. Hell's gates begin breaking open some time after the events of Bloodlines (I love that game btw), so demons aren't around for the most part when it takes place.

Prior to Hell breaking open, demons only show up in the world when summoned. The Tremere might summon demons in the way classic warlocks do, for power or knowledge, and it works as expected. Though whether they are summoned Fallen or Wyrm spirits is up to the Storyteller. Same deal if Mages are doing the summoning. There is however a Vampire Bloodline called the Bhaali, in Bloodlines they were the ones spreading disease. Their entire schtick is being demon summoning satanists, and I think they're supposed to have dealings with actual Fallen.

After Hell breaks, its more or less like most splats, White Wolf tends to minimize canonical interactions, but mention that if you want to cross them it would work like you'd expect. Fallen and Vampires would generally compete for territory and herd. Alliances are possible, but for the most part they probably won't trust each other. They also have a big conflict of interest in the canon (which you might choose to ignore). Demons get power from Faith, so they want people to know they exist. Vampires have the Masquerade, they want to stay hidden from the world.

Power wise Vampires have access to more and better physical combat options (Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence), but Demons have some great powers to manipulate space, give free Attribute dots, and quite importantly, control fire. The Lore of Fire would be bad times for Vampires. In one of the later Demon books they added rituals that require dots in several Lores, and one of those rituals would allow a Demon to create a false sun for several hours, which it specifically notes functions as an actual sun for creatures that care about that (including vampires) so that's a thing.
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IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT LIKE THIS, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
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>>45043751

Ah, that would explain a lot. So if it comes down to a straight fight with a vampire and a demon, the vampire will probably win due to being able to destroy the vessel, but the demon is technically more powerful. Depending on the vampire and demon, of course. Neat. Not as cut and dried as it would seem.

Wonder if the corpses that read as 'supernatural' but play no other role in Bloodlines might be demons in vessels. I always wondered what they were. I know you mention Bloodlines happens earlier, but it's also really it's own thing.

One thing that originally stopped me getting into oWoD was that it 'ended' and rocks fell, everybody died. It wasn't til a few years back I discovered that none of the multiple options for endings were canon. Or are they? I like to imagine they are events that could have happened, but the oWoD and machinations just continue as they always did.
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>>45043571
>What does Lucifer think of humans now and what happens to him in end times
There are a few suggestions given for him, but basically its either: He actually hates humanity and wants to become their lord and god, he loves humanity but is a stress case (like a parent with a newborn who hasn't slept in days). In the end times he's trying to secure humanities survival, whether its for his own ends or genuine altruism. Lucifer avoids taking center stage while he's doing this, because non-demons are unlikely to trust him because he's goddamn Lucifer, and his presence would likely galvanize all sorts of demons against him and his cause. So he tries to pull strings and manipulate things, with mixed results (because no one trusts him).

>what does caine do in the end times and does his brother ever forgives him.
There are multiple end times scenarios for Vampire end times, and Cain doesn't even make an appearance in all of them. He does show up in one where Able shows up and says he forgives Cain (and that he never really held it against him) and Cain can respond by either accepting it or saying "Fuck you I don't need your forgiveness, or anyone elses". Again, StoryTeller's choice.

>Is the city of enoch still important and how did it get in the shadowlands
Things destroyed in the real world oftentimes show up in the Shadowlands, I think that's why Enoch is there. It was introduced in a really bad supplement called the Dirty Secrets of the True Black Hand. The most important thing about it was that it got nuked, and two beams of light shot out of it. The beams are believed to be the Messengers, or connected to them somehow.

>what does Lilith think of caine in end times and what happens to her.

Sorry, but I really can't remember this one. She shows up in a Vampire end times scenario, but that's all I really remember on the topic.
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>>45043872
I think the corpses were just zombies.

Oh, and something else I forgot to mention, I think Demons are flat out immune to mental powers, so they're extremely effective against the likes of Ventrue and other vampires that rely on the psychic sorts of powers.

It's canon that the world ended in OWoD, as White Wolf explained it, the entire setting was built on the premise that the end is coming, so it would be kinda lame if they never wrote about it. But no single ending is canon. All the major lines had at least three major end time scenarios, with variety of ways they could go. The lesser ones (which unfortunately includes Demon) only have one scenario, though again with a variety of potential endings for it. They also leave the world in various states of destruction. Some the world is essentially reborn, and I think the Kindred's of the East one has a possible solution where the Yozi King is killed basically the moment he comes to power, so that could probably happen with the world being minimally aware it even happened. Plus, its a StoryTeller system, everything is a suggestion. You don't want the world to end? Either ignore the end times or let them get averted.
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>>45043872
Oh, and another thing about the power ratings. Demon fluff and crunch don't quite line up in a few ways. The crunch doesn't have rules for Demons with more than 5 dots in anything, but the fluff implies there is. In the fluff demons with enough Faith are straight up more powerful, the equivalent of having a lower generation. In the crunch its just a resource, like having access to more Blood points. One of the Lore also lets a Demon make monsters from legend, like chimeras and dragons and stuff, so that can go insane pretty fast. From the crunch I would generally say combat vampires are going to trump combat demons, but demons are more capable of dealing with the non-physical powers of vampires, and vampires are ill-equipped to deal with the more magical powers of demons. Also you were correct in that destroying the vessel doesn't kill the demon, it just sends them back to Hell...which is broken so they can just escape it again. I don't think anyone but Mages and other Demons can actually perma-kill a demon.
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>>45044047

Actually meant this guy. always found him sort of interesting, as his soul/life energy is clearly supernatural, yet he clearly isn't a vampire.
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>>45044047
>>45044200

Ack, forgot to add the image.

>>45044174

Interesting. I'll likely go more demonic with my group, with sprinklings of monster-of-the-week for the smaller time stuff. It's actually seeming very... Supernatural. In fact, Supernatural could easily be a low-powered WoD setting.
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>>45041449
Maybe try In Nomine, it's the only game I know where you can play angels (using human bodies).
Or Magna Veritas if you can find a translation, it's the same game but with humor and '80s over-the-topness, so it may be better for a group of murderhobos.
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>>45042611
Morally grey demons predate Paradise Lost by a significant number of years. The account of Solomon and Asmodai is a great example.

And even in the case of Paradise Lost, people still sympathised with Satan when it was written. He's a villain protagonist in the story but still a sympathetic one. He intentionally reflects Classical heroes who are often likeable and great in many ways but undone by their fatal flaws.
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>>45044235

Crap, shouldn't have posted the imagine. The Bloodlines effect. Everyone has gone to reinstall/play. Ded thred.
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>>45043201
> the Messenger spirits that activated Hunters come from Lucifer, he sent them out in desperation during a light show in LA when demon lords were tracking him down

Is that canon? I believe I read that God was coming back from some long absence (having left Earth in the hands of the Angels) and they were all "Shit, better start some pest control before the Big Guy sees all these vampires and werewolves and shit running rampant" and activated the hunters in a bit of guilty panic.
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>>45042005
I don't like the new lore for them, honestly, they seem a lot less cool when they're basically just stupidly powerful sentient computer programs made by the omniscient, reality-warping machine that is God.
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>>45044235
>low-powered WoD setting.
Well, aside from the Winchester brothers, obviously. What kind of stats do you think Sam and Dean would have?
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>>45047198
Is there a stat for crippling inability to let the other one die and stay dead or be away from them even if by not letting go they are dooming the world/universe/multiverse?

Because if there is, they have ALL their fucking points in it.
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>>45041671
It's the Spectre from DC comics.
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>>45042032
It is worth noting that Supernal Angels aren't Quashalim aren't God Machine Angels. Supernal Angels are probably the closest to biblical angels, you can find two of them in Summoners.
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>>45044521
I always liked Lucifer from Sandman and the Lucifer comic.
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>>45041779
I vaguely remember some book say, "you probably shouldn't stat angels but if you do 10s in all stats is a good start..."
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