Wow, that was fast.
Previous Thread >>45015958
So, Mage is finally almost about to be laid out. For now, Dark Eras is being worked on, although the art hasn't come in for it yet. Also, Rich is 53.
Reposting this. I just looked over the logs and it went from [00:54] to [11:03].
I just MOSTLY successfully ran the first session of my one on one Bloodlines inspired Requiem game, for a person completely new to RPGs. She was surprisingly into making her character, and while I'd expected to more or less handle all that myself, she made the character properly and even looked up a Merit that I didn't list out for her.
The actual incidents of the game were pretty simple. She got seduced by some Daeva, murdered, Embraced, and left in her apartment. Two Kindred broke in the next night expecting to find her corpse, and found her up and active. They cleaned up the bloody bedsheets and took her to the theater, where plenty of the big wigs were gathered to watch her "trial".
There was a slight hiccup as the player thought she fucked up when I used a Kerberos on her, and she felt all three Predatory Aspect Conditions in sequence. But she got the thumbs up from the Kerberos, so she wasn't ashed, and now the Prince is having her go after essentially the Plaguebearer quest.
At this point, she knows of the Clans, she knows Covenants exist, and she knows the three Traditions. She's been told that she won't be killed, but if she fails this first task, she'll probably be left out in the wind on her own. Someone's causing an epidemic, and the Prince's source says it's a supernatural disease. She's to put a stop to it however she likes.
Now I need to figure out what to do next. I'm sort of making this shit up as I go along. I'm thinking maybe a Morbus with Malkavia or something.
>Implying Mage hasn't been one of the most popular game lines, despite it's flaws
Even from these threads you can clearly see that more than only four people are interested in Mage 2e.
The flame war is less "what Mage edition is better", because frankly Ascension vs Awakening had that covered. It's about how people think Mages are the best and can roflstomp everything.
No, it's just that there's usually arguments along those lines at the beginning of each new edition so far, and Mage'll probably be the biggest of them because of its hype.
Also yeah, it's probably not going to top Mage the Ascension 2e vs Revised. Is there any flamewars threads about it still archived anywhere? I should probably go see, I love reading old internet discussions.
I feel like Malkavia's an aspect of the setting you should reveal in the second act of the game, once the player's more settled in with how the clans behave. If you want to do something fun, it could be something like a cross Kindred-Mortal infection that causes Kindred to lose Vitae faster and causes humans to have a kind of meningitis that just so happens to grant Auspex 1-3, based on the stage of infection. Feeding from an infected human infects the Vampire, who ends up wanting to drink more blood and bites a human, infecting them, so on and so forth. It's putting down a Masquerade threat and a threat to the entire Domain in one go.
Hrm. This is basically what the Prince told her about it:
>"There's been a bit of a problem as of late. While we Kindred are undead creatures, our vessels are not. When we drink from a tainted source, we experience their sickness, and more to the point, their sickness affects us. Consider the farmer who's chickens come down with a disease. You may be aware of the epidemic of sickness going around lately. The mortal scientists are unable to determine the cause, and will no doubt call in the Centers for Disease Control in the near future. Within the Covenants--that is, our political factions--there's some rumour that the disease is being caused by one of our own. The other night, a confidant in the Ordo Dracul confirmed this fact through his own brand of science and alchemy. I've been at a loss for how to handle this matter discreetly so as not to cause a panic, and then you fall right upon my doorstep. I'll be frank with you, you're a deniable asset in this matter. I'd suggest doing a bit of investigation into the matter before confronting the problem head on, but how you choose to solve it is up to you--provided you do so quietly."
Though after thinking about it, I'm tempted to be a little more flexible with the "one of our own" part. Maybe give it a non-Kindred origin. I might do that retcon thing where I provide a recap and then reword it. I haven't described the disease yet, but I was basically thinking a sort of superflu, with strong hallucinations, but that's only if I do go with a Malkavian Morbus. The player has said she wants something like the way you end up uncovering a sect of Plaguebearers, as opposed to it just being one of them. I might make it one guy at first, let the mission die down, and then come back in a different part of the city
She was also asked to bring back a sample of whatever's doing it. I suppose I did imply to heavily that it's a vampire, but I could still get away with it being something stranger, and use Malkavia later
So, WoD General, I have decided to go on a Usenet journey. Originally it was to look for a good flame war about Mage the Ascension 2e vs Revised, but now I'm just looking just to look. It turns out that there's still people using alt.games.whitewolf, and the front page isn't totally packed to the gills with spam.
Anyways, here's a seven page thread asking why White Wolf games suck now...from 16 years ago:
>I love White Wolf games. I was play Vampire when it first came out. I've moved up through the various different W.O.D. games enjoying most of them. I've recently been getting involved in Aberrant, a lot. However, I'm noticing a trend with new W.W. products, great idea, poor execution. The concept of Aberrant is great, the world is interesting. What pisses me off though is that crap that they put out as "supplements." I just bought the "Church of Michael Archangel," and it's horrible. Not only is it vaporous (I don't care if I only had to pay 5 bucks for it), there is nothing of real use in the pamphlet, and that's all it is a pamphlet. There are no stats on NPCs, no possible story concepts, no how to make a Michaelite NPC, or what a player/gamer should think about with trying to sneak into their group. NOTHING! What we have in the pamphlet is 23 pages (that's it) of newspaper articles. While this is interesting to some degree, yet repetitive, it's not what I expect from a supplement. I find it hilarious that there is an "Additional Materials" credit on the last page. What did these people provide, staples?
Why is David A. HIll Jr. such a cuck and weeaboo?
I don't wanna go there, it reminds me of the dark days of the internet and those days were scary
and why is he still tweeting profoundly stupid shit when his first account was suspended? I think he wants his pink slip.
I don't know what the point of this is. Dude's going to retire from writing for games after all his contracted stuff is up and his personal twitter is his personal twitter. If you're expecting to draw a personal army to satisfy whatever your vendetta is, you're going to be disappointed.
>I don't know what the point of this is.
they're face value images. At no point did I say "hurrrr, raid this guy." I'm just disappointed he was ever a part of World of Darkness products.
But anon, you could be reading what White Wolf fans of 16 years ago wanted a World of Darkness movie to look like!
>Although a lot of the suggestions have been good for establishing a look for a film (which is what's being talked about) -especially Tim Burton-
Cut a CW?
Also, Hill is so old guard for White Wolf that he's unlikely to get cut no matter what, even if he's one of the edgy gamers he hates (I mean, he is the one who wanted "Badass Motherfucker" and "Claws of the Badass" to be power names).
Is he? I'll admit I feel like he's somewhere between self hating nerd and "look how progressive I am", but sometimes, sometimes the dude comes up with good stuff. I was just telling my new player how I like the Kerberos because of how their Bloodline Curse encourages them to use the Predatory Aura on everyone.
That said, "personal twitter is personal twitter" isn't really justification these days. When you say something, it's public, and can be traced back to you. Future publishers might be less willing to contract him if they know he's going to go badmouth them like that. I mean, Amy allegedly got fired for saying something critical in *private*.
But again, Hill's basically secured at OPP.
Why? He's pretty much the epitome of a White Wolf gamer. He likes edgy things and "Badass" stuff, straddles the line between actually caring about issues and being a slacktivist who wants people to think he's more progressive than thou, and he also hates edgy nerd gamers who are obsessed with "badass". Did you forget that White Wolf had this whole parody of White Wolf going on, or that they constantly make digs at goth culture? Bloodlines has a soundtrack of bands you've never heard of that are gothindustrialdarkmetal and yet there are still item descriptions and jokes about how silly that is. You could expect to see a store called Edgy on Purpose in the malls of Bloodline's LA.
>He's pretty much the epitome of a White Wolf gamer. He likes edgy things and "Badass" stuff, straddles the line between actually caring about issues and being a slacktivist
In this thread, Aspel calls the kettle black. And once again must reference the latest thing they finally got around to watching.
In all honesty, if you think I actually wanted a power to be called "Claws of the Motherfucker", you're sadly mistaken.
It was an inside joke.
When we were doing the initial talks about Beast, we were discussing power formats. When I pitched a format, I wrote "Claws of the Motherfucker" as the title. Immediately, a bunch of freelancers in the email chain said they wanted that to make the final book.
Matt said that he was going to change the name. A freelancer, I don't know who, mentioned it publicly. I teased Matt a bit about it for even addressing the fact that it would be changed. Of course it'd be changed. It wasn't meant to be a thing for public consumption.
My Twitter account was never suspended. I locked it for a while. I unlocked it eventually.
The point is basically that it comes up every couple of months, and they still haven't gotten their desired reaction. The same out-of-context nonsense gets dragged up. A couple of people jerk off in a cup over it. Eventually they realize nobody cares.
I still think it's pretty creepy that people that hate me so much follow every god-damned thing I say, including reply chains. It's even creepier when they MS Paint them together to draw incorrect conclusions. These people draw conclusions the way Rob Liefield draws feet.
atamajakki doesn't like david hill because on some erp game they played david hill refused to have sex with him or some shit
so he stalks david hill and claims to hate him cause of tweets
>In all honesty, if you think I actually wanted a power to be called "Claws of the Motherfucker", you're sadly mistaken.
I'm just saying, Badass Motherfucker is still in the Werewolf book. And I think it might have been the Gencon panel where someone mentioned Claws of the Motherfucker.
>I'm so glad some random person on the internet wasn't one of several people making a video game from 11 years ago
From what I've heard, Hill is the one who gets mad if you don't ERP with him. This is to be expected of someone who did Vampire
>"My Twitter account was never suspended. I locked it for a while. I unlocked it eventually."
>click name in one of the search results that comes up, because profile doesn't
>Account Suspended message
>I still think it's pretty creepy that people that hate me so much follow every god-damned thing I say
maybe don't be such a black-and-white absolutionist bootlicker to hyperdyke leftists on the internet that will never fuck you in a publicly viewable social media app
I didn't write that. It was a direct pull from Stew's bible. He named that. I didn't. I didn't even design those mechanics actually; I just rephrased what Stew wrote originally.
And yeah, I think it was at the Gen Con panel, come to think of it.
>It's even creepier when they MS Paint them together to draw incorrect conclusions.
It's an unedited convo
"Save me from edgy gamers"
"I'm talking about my boss"
Seems pretty cut and dry to me
Well then I'm disappointed in Stew. We all thought he was better than that.
Anyway, if you're here, then what's the context? You DID after all say you hate "edgy" gamers while writing for White Wolf games, and Amaranthine is basically "Elder Vampires: The Game".
I can't be atamajakki, I'm Aspel.
It always amazes me when people show up who are afraid of gays or hate the lefties but like World of Darkness. It'd be like a conservative listening to NWA.
>World of Darkness movie
Speaking of WoD and movies...
Sure. When I say "edgy" in scare quotes, I mean it in scare quotes.
I like pushing boundaries sometimes, and playing with expectations. What I don't like is people that take a firm stance on not caring about the reactions their material gets.
Like, in this case I wrote something really intense. Intentionally very gross, and definitely the kind of stuff that deals with very specific forms of trauma. There was a little warning that was basically, "The following section deals with X, Y, and Z. This is different than the rest of this material. So, don't just spring this on people unless you know they're okay with it."
Said publisher told me to cut it because "our readers are adults, not whiny babies".
I have no problem using harsh content; I mean, it'd be pretty ridiculous of me to write the kinds of things I do and have a problem with it, but I feel the reader has a right to know what they're walking into. And if what you're introducing is jarring and dissonant to the rest of the piece, that kind of notice just makes sense.
I hope that makes sense.
I wasn't talking about Onyx Path. I was talking about a different gig. Onyx Path is not even remotely my only job; they're just the publisher I work most for, because I like generally like working with them.
He's a good developer, makes every merit, and who cares if he has an opinion on things. White Wolf has ALWAYS been a socially progressive company. You can't seriously expect them to err on the side of gamergate, can you?
>Not being able to separate your politics from your entertainment
>Not being able to enjoy entertainment on it's own merits
The tax system is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be greatly lessened, gun restrictions are absolutely ridiculous, and Dr. Dre's work with NWA pioneered the rap industry and opened the genre up to more and more quality artists to embrace the medium
Hey, is there anything cool that's happened in the playtesting for Changeling that's cool to share with us?
Any cool moments you heard, especially if they use some of the new systems you've spoiled, like homebrewed courts, or a clever use of a kith ability, or a great interpretation of the new Seemings for a character concept. Anything like that you're willing to share?
Thanks. I try. I mean, I don't give a shit. I don't have anything to hide. But if I can save one cool person from having to waste their time with this bullshit, I feel like I've done my good deed for the day and maybe a hyperdyke leftist will sleep with me.
I hate saying that. But I'm letting a couple of my groups percolate a bit before I go there.
I'm also like 150% in Hurt Locker right now. Got to do some heavy fixes per Paradox/White Wolf. I've been stupid busy, and just had to do a bunch of unexpected changes on V20 Black Hand and Dark Eras. So I haven't even looked at the recent batch of playtest reports.
Oh, cool. Anything from Hurt Locker?
How are you feeling about the merit section now? Is it good to go?
I remember there was a section we didn't see with environmental parts to affect combat. I understand if you don't want to spoil them, but could you give us a jist of the concept? I'm always looking for things to make combat more dynamic and exciting.
Oh yeah sure.
For Merits, they're basically done, but I have some cutting and massaging to do for Paradox/White Wolf. I agree with some of it. I don't agree with others. But, that's the nature of the game, right?
The environment thing is basically a way to frame scenes so you have some palpable context to work with. It's minor, soft mechanics that mostly help you to immerse yourself in the event. I feel like Malcolm really knocked it out of the park here.
So like, here's an example:
In a city at least 200 years old workers build tunnel on tunnel. There’s a labyrinth under these grates, and few places to go that aren’t ankle-deep in water and filth.
Advantage: The first group to scout out this irregular, dark and fetid space unlocks a +2 bonus to Stealth and combat rolls against intruders. This disappears after the first turn of a combat scene. If a character renders an opponent prone, maintaining a Hold result on a victim for a number of turns equal to double her Stamina drowns her, assuming she needs to breathe.
Penalty: Lighting conditions range from bright spots near storm drains to complete darkness. Some areas are cramped. Characters have to stoop, suffering a -2 penalty to Athletics and close combat tasks. During a rainstorm, players may be forced to succeed at a Stamina + Athletics roll to keep their characters’ heads above water. If a tunnel’s completely submerged, characters must hold their breaths.
Dramatic Failure: On the run, characters might get turned around and lost in some forgotten passage. Otherwise, the sewer’s full of shit and filth, introducing a Toxicity 2 disease-related Condition. These are both optional results, traded for Beats.
So, this is pure anecdote. So, please don't take it to suggest some sort of overarching rule.
But let me contextualise it a little bit so it's not misconstrued.
It used to be, CCP approvals mostly just meant "Eddy looked it over, and recommended a few changes". In my experience with Eddy, it was mostly minor clarity stuff.
But for my most recent project (V20 Black Hand), I had Eddy looking it over as V20 line developer, then it went to Paradox for further notes. Paradox had some pretty significant notes. For example, they had me remove all references to Souleaters, and lessen the significance of demons to the Black Hand. If you know Masquerade, or in particular Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, you'll know what kind of task that constituted.
I don't expect that sort of significant revision on CofD books personally, because most of the stuff in my V20 Black Hand notes was all based on their vision for Masquerade going forward. But I think it's too early to really say.
I'm fairly certain it has to be dice pool, since I don't think we have a jump chart in CofD. I haven't looked since the last draft I received though, so someone's welcome and encouraged to prove me wrong.
Out of curiosity, what kind of cutting/massaging does Paradox ask for? Is it stuff like "This merit seems redundant" or more conceptual stuff like "we don't like you putting these themes in the Chronicles of Darkness"
I know it's hard to answer the latter tactfully. All I can do is hope that they don't compromise the artistic integrity of the CofD line, which consistently has proven very sophisticated.
>I wrote some gory violence like the past 20 years of vampire-on-werewolf brutality I've been associated with
>I want to put trigger warnings in to be trendy despite my name being associated with a horror series known for taboo maturity for a while
Your boss was right, stop infantilising your readers you crybaby.
Interesting. I certainly would not be surprised if Paradox was far more critical of classic WOD books considering their personal appreciation of the old material and the company's desire to cross-market.
I also very much hope you're right about their likely not demanding significant changes to most CofD products. I've been very pleased with the 2e books, and would hate for anything to radically change to accommodate a new "vision."
Did Paradox request major changes to Hurt Locker, and do you know if DaveB was required to substantially revise Mage 2e?
I'm not going to answer that just yet. I want to see a full CofD book through before I feel I can safely comment there.
Understand that there's a lot of give/take in these things. So I'm going to pose a few counterpoints to some of the things, and see what they say. Just like with freelance developers, some people pose cutting way more than is necessary, and expect some compromise along the way. Some people don't allow for any movement in those regards.
So I'll try to answer that once Hurt Locker is in its final stages. I hope that doesn't sound like a cop-out. I think I'll be even more ready to talk about it once Changeling's there, since it's a much bigger book with a more foundational structure.
>>I wrote some gory violence like the past 20 years of vampire-on-werewolf brutality I've been associated with
>>I want to put trigger warnings in to be trendy despite my name being associated with a horror series known for taboo maturity for a while
>Your boss was right, stop infantilising your readers you crybaby.
I'll get right on that when they stop acting like infants.
I don't understand what you're talking about.
On the one hand, I feel like that kind of thing should be obvious whenever it comes up. On the other... That Guy threads.
>makes every merit
David, why does 2e get rid of minmaxing at chargen and then give you a better deal if you take Professional Training 4 in three skills you have 0 dots in?
Everything is politics. And for some things, they wear their politics on their sleeve.
Didn't she already marry you?
>V20 Black Hand
>David, why does 2e get rid of minmaxing at chargen and then give you a better deal if you take Professional Training 4 in three skills you have 0 dots in?
enjoy justifying to your ST why you have zero dots in your asset skills, faggot-kun
also enjoy only getting like 3 experiences worth of refund back after you've spent like 30, faggot-kun
this is a fucking stupid complaint faggot-kun
Yeah. I feel like it should be obvious in some games, but also, not others. Like, in World of Darkness, I don't know that it's really necessary to line-item shit. In Hurt Locker, I have a minor note about the content, because in places, it's a little different than we're used to in CofD tone. But it's not really any different than your average "this is what you should expect in this book" stuff. But if I put something like the harsher Hurt Locker content in, say, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying for example, that'd deserve a callout, because it's not what you expected going in.
Re: Professional Training, that was an artifact of a few schools of thought. First off, it's really only a big advantage if you plan on a long, drawn-out chronicle where you have time to go from 0-5 in three different Skills. I feel like those games are distinctly rare. Also, you have to start at 0 in three things your character is supposed to be good at. So you're going to suck at the chronicle start.
It's not a perfect execution of my general 2e design philosophy. But I think the reasons it's an exception aren't really that big of a deal in the context of play.
Also, yes she did. /insert rant about poly erasure
Anyone have the character sheets in Spanish? I've been thinking of introducing RPG's to some of my cousins overseas and CofD/Wod seems like the easiest thing to learn.
While I get that you just love shitting up the thread, do you even understand the complaint? It's not about what you can or can't get away with, it's the fact that "whenever you take a dot in an Asset Skill, take a Beat" encourages you to get ProfTrain 4 before you have many asset skill dots. Realistically, you'd likely take Profession Training 4 when you have at least 4 dots in one of the Asset Skills and probably 3 in the second. And no one is going to take a new Asset skill from Breadth of Knowledge in something that they don't already have.
But where's the line? What do you as the ST allow? Do you allow them to take Professional Training 4 when they have 3 dots in all their Asset Skills? What about 2? Or 1? And of course, 0 gives the most benefit. "I'm just starting out". There's no actual rules restriction, so it's all up to the ST, and usually the ST won't really care. It's the exact same situation of "I have 5 Strength. I'll just spend my first 10xp raising up my other Attributes" that we had with the original "new dots x#" system.
Also, skill dots cost 2xp each, so getting three up to 5 (and that's assuming you want to go all-in) is only 9xp. Starting from 0 with PT4 would get you 3xp back from that.
Wouldn't be too hard to translate the character sheet into Spanish yourself. You'd have to do all the actual teaching of the game, though. If the books are in Spanish, the sheets probably are, too.
Professional Training is one of those things I like in theory--and even before 2e allowed for non-Hunters--but don't like the execution of. I just as a houserule give everyone the benefit of 2 Asset Skills and 9-Again on those skills. For 2xp they can choose a third Asset Skill and get a free Specialty, for 4xp they can spend a point of Willpower to Rote their Specialties.
>Also, you have to start at 0 in three things your character is supposed to be good at. So you're going to suck at the chronicle start.
Like I said, that's one of the problems with it. I'm not saying anyone WOULD, I'm just saying it encourages it. It's the opposite of good game design and while it's not heavy about it, it does give the feelbads. As I said earlier in the thread, the Kerberos are a good example of that: Their Curse encourages them to either eat spaghetti and lose their 10-Again, or flare out their Beast and strong arm everyone.
̶T̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶I̶ ̶t̶r̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶h̶o̶m̶e̶b̶r̶e̶w̶.̶
Speaking of which, do YOU know anything about a potential Geist 2e? I feel like no one else cares. Even the other Geist homebrew I found hasn't been updated since 2014.
>Everything is politics. And for some things, they wear their politics on their sleeve.
Well, yeah. But most things don't. It's always important to examine your media, because critical thinking is, well, critical, but unless it's literally a political screed, you can enjoy a work of media for what it is, accepting that there may be political aspects to it you do not agree with or care for. It's how a conservative can listen to NWA or how a dyed in the wool lefty can enjoy Invasion USA. Discussing politics in art is necessary to the advancement of art and politics, but you can still like the thing. Ezra Pound's poems are still breathtaking and landmarks in modernist literature, it just so happens that he's a fascist and you can totally see it coming in some of his poetry.
Sure. But that's an average of about 30 play sessions (for most players, that's about a year of play or more) devoted purely to netting a total of 3 Experiences.
If you just started with relatively good Skills to begin with, those Skills would be cranking out Exceptionals which could net you a number of Beats.
Also, you wouldn't suck in your area of specialty at play start.
>Speaking of which, do YOU know anything about a potential Geist 2e? I feel like no one else cares. Even the other Geist homebrew I found hasn't been updated since 2014.
I know there's some talk about it. But talk is very slow, waiting on a few things to fall into place. I would very much like it to happen. I would very much like to be part of it. I know the OPP crew is largely excited about the prospect. But, it's still up in the air right now.
Like I said, I don't think anyone DOES do that, but the design ENCOURAGES it. It feels like a dead dot (well, half a dead dot, since you do still get a free dot in one of your Skills) but with the added "you were TOO skilled" feelbad of rewarding lower Skill levels when you took it.
The good "fix" for this I've seen is just backdating Beats for the dots you already purchased.
>hill to die on
I wouldn't want to die on Hill. It seems a rather ignominious way to go.
But also this is literally the first time I've brought this up. Again: Get off my dick.
Definitely. I listen to NWA, Kanye, and a bunch of stuff that's rife with misogyny.
There's a certain point where it gets bad enough that I just roll my eyes and walk away. But I enjoy stuff I criticise. Hell, I often find that criticising things helps me to enjoy them more in a lot of cases. It's a way to consume media, just like cosplaying, doing fan art, reviewing, and anything else.
But that's the thing: You can say it encourages that, but if you also accept that nobody does it, the encouragement is academic at best. A lot of game design involves predicting how people will use your material. Sometimes you take risks. In this case, it was a slight risk that I think worked fine in the end. I've never actually heard of someone doing it, despite the supposed encouragement.
Well, yes, but you're not also saying these people need to be put away for corrupting the youth. Also Kanye a amazing on the mic, even if he's just a terrible human being.
I can't open Blood and Smoke without wanting to listen to Kanye. Is Rose a fan, or was that unintentional?
Back to the homebrew mines for me.
I feel like the only reason no one would do it is because they wouldn't notice it or they wouldn't be able to get away with it, or it wouldn't be worth it. I'm not trying to act like it's a MAJOR problem or anything. It just looks like the kind of thing that someone should have noticed.
I mean, honestly the only gripes I have with CofD are mostly minor (ONLY athletics mattering for skill-to-defense, Core seeming slapdash and missing things, *layout*).
>Like I said, I don't think anyone DOES do that, but the design ENCOURAGES it.
At some point, you have to realize that you can't make a mechanic totally abuse proof. There's only one kind of mechanic that can't be dicked around with and min-maxed into oblivion, and that's the mechanic in the game that never comes out. That's not to say that one shouldn't playtest or that one should only theorycraft when designing a game, but it is to say that the rules are merely the blueprints, not a mold. At some point, you have to expect that the player group needs to take stuff into their own hands. Figuring out exactly where the written rules vs player group authority ratio lies is a challenge and will differ for every game, but it will always have parts of one and the other.
I want to say that was like Audrey or someone? I think it was whomever wrote the fiction.
But I eagerly approve. That track is fucking perfect. It's up there on my list of Perfect Requiem Music.
And yeah. Layout's weird. People either seem to love it or hate it. I have Strong Opinions on layout, but they're pretty much worthless to express. I've only really had huge problems with it in like Awakening 1e, where I literally can't read the headers, or like in God-Machine, where we start a section, only to cut off immediately for a multi-page aside.
Then again, I also think most RPG books should be like 60 pages.
Brrrrr. I tried re-reading my Awakening 1e book the other day while we were screaming at the sky for 2e to get approved, and I just couldn't do it. Those fucking fonts. That gold color on a white page. Flecks. Why. Why why why.
Speaking of Geist homebrew:
Anyone got suggestions for Synergy Discord Triggers? (This time with link)
>At some point, you have to realize that you can't make a mechanic totally abuse proof.
Well yeah, but this is one of those things that it's surprising no one noticed how potentially abusable it is. It's the kind of thing people use as evidence that the creators don't know what they're doing, and I have to explain to players that "yeah, you kind of miss out on freebies if you want to not suck". No one likes being told they can't get free stuff because they're too qualified.
>But I eagerly approve. That track is fucking perfect. It's up there on my list of Perfect Requiem Music.
It's Carthians: The Song.
Also, my problem with layout is FINDING shit. I keep having to click through the PDF just to find things like the Predatory Aspects, or how certain little features work. I wish I took notes, but this morning when I was running an impromptu one on one, I scrambled to find the information I needed on simple "how 2 vampur" stuff.
I will say that at least now there are hyperlinks, so when it says "go see XX" I can just click it. But then I have to go find where I came from to finish reading that.
>tfw you actually like Zapfino Linotype
But that's the thing. It's only missed "free stuff" if:
1) You're willing to be terrible in your area of specialty from the outset.
2) You're playing 30+ game sessions.
3) You wouldn't be netting Conditions and Beats from the higher Skills.
4) You're willing to invest 30 Experiences into Skills, when there's so much cooler stuff you could be putting those points into.
5) You're willing to neglect growth in every other category for a negligible boost.
You really have to put a TON of effort into getting those 3~ Experiences, instead of getting 1-2~ Experiences.
This is functionally identical to how you can technically circle-jerk Inspiring and Social Manoeuvring to net a bunch of Experiences over time. Why, sure? But like, does anyone actually care that much?
>silver ladder guy
He's better than unicycle girl. The signature Obrimos should not look like she's 12 and belongs in the circus.
The substance of Mage 1e was very good, but the art, fonts and layout were truly abominable.
>Moros Cowboy is the best
"Best" is relative, particularly in the sea of crap that was the graphic design and art of Mage 1e.
All the spoilers from Mage 2e are fantastic, and the book's substance appears to be a vast improvement in mechanics and setting tweaks over 1e. Unlike Vampire and Werewolf, I hope OP totally throws out the old format and style of 1e, and gives the new material some good, evocative art that it deserves and fonts and layout that doesn't actually hurt to read.
Technically even not getting 1 Beat more from it is "missing out". I mean, it's LESS effective the higher your skills are. If I'm at 5 dots for all three Asset Skills, I just paid 4xp for nothing, and if I'm 4/4/5 I paid 4xp for a skill that costs 2xp. That dot becomes more and more useless. I mean, even if you use the "it only matters if you play 30+ sessions" excuse, that begs the question of what good the dot level is to begin with. I mean, if anything, it highlights what you keep saying about dead levels and why it's bad to force everything into a 1 to 5 ladder.
Meanwhile Inspiring works pretty much as intended. I'd fully endorse a party that does nothing but cheerlead each other to greatness.
As an aside, Professional Training really should be considered a Style merit.
Werewolf's art is really good.
>Werewolf's art is really good
Werewolf had good art in 1e, and that's why it was good that OP followed a similar style in 2e, same as with Vampire.
Mage 1e's art, however sucked badly, and OP should therefore not follow the same style between editions as they did with Vampire and Werewolf.
I don't know if I agree with that. Werewolf had SOME good art, but Vampire never really impressed me except in a few places. I did like the original Bloodline style, where they got a really dark charcoal sketch, though. And the Malkavian image is one of my favourites.
Werewolf core had good art. The supplements had art that didn't know it wasn't Apocalypse.
Such as the picture Holt made with a woman tatooing someone in Gauru with a silver blade.
Basically, 1e Forsaken didn't get that Uratha aren't in war form all the time. And they have artists who can't draw wolves.
Too bad Abrar Ajmal went underground, and was not possible as an artist for 2e, he's one of the better.
So, I am doing some setting work for when Mage2 eventually drops.
I have a cabal of mages that's mostly vampire hunters, called Dawnlight.
But damn it. What are some thematic things to name the members?
I'm kinda new to WoD. And by kinda new, I mean that I've played all of 3 games.
A good buddy of mine wanted to DM a Mage game, and I thought it sounded fun. Pretty much only one other person knows wtf they're doing, so the DM made it an Orphan game (that way nobody knows what they're doing IC or OOC, and we can be taught IC and OOC at the same time).
I'll be honest: it's fun. It really is.
My problem is that... I'm just not really 'getting it'.
The character I ended up rolling up is a manipulative gambler. The kinda guy who counted cards and never lost a fair game BEFORE he awakened.
Working with the GM, he ended up with 3 dots in Entropy magic (which make sense), but as far as what I can do with that... I don't really know. I find most of what I'm doing is (apparently) 2nd sphere stuff, where I just make things "luckily" happen in my favor. I feel like I've been given a gun and I've only figured out how to Club people with the stock.
Any chance someone could help me out with what I'm missing?
What does /wodg/ think of When Animals Dream? Pretty sweet new werewolf movie imo
>cabal of mages that's mostly vampire hunters
Why? Awakening isn't Ascension, and there's no inherent antipathy between mages and vampires (or anyone or anything else).
In fact, constantly hunting a major supernatural group, with the myriad of resulting problems, would likely make those mages hated or even forcefully rejected by any consilium or group of Seers. In short order, they would likely be eradicated by more powerful mages in order to prevent a foolish and needless war.
Because vampires set up hierarchies of slavery. The core of the cabal is Free Council, and the tyranny inherent in vampiric enslavement of mortals is exactly the thing they say empowers the Exarchs.
Mostly, however, it is because vampires are monsters who kill people. And yeah, they go after werewolves as well, when they start preying on humans. They also hunt spirits that have slipped into the world and cause havoc, zombie uprisings, and other kinds of supernatural shit that threatens Sleepers.
I meant nWoD. In Ventrue: Lords Over The Damned.
To be fair, if you're getting tattooed with a silver blade, you would be in Warform. But also murdering the tattoo artist.
Tell me about it.
I could see a group of Arrows appointing themselves as a sort of "Supernatural Hunters". Taking it upon themselves to rid the world of darkness. But that runs into the same problem that you get with a group of Eaters of the Dead Werewolves: After a while, you're definitely going to run out of trouble to deal with. Hell, most Werewolf Tribes have that problem. After a while you'll probably clean up your city with bloody violence, and there won't be much Sacred Prey for you. Spirits and Humans are the ones that are least likely to "run out", but just how many Hosts/Werewolves/Claimed/Worthwhile Humans/Worthwhile Spirits can there be in a City?
>I could see a group of Arrows appointing themselves as a sort of "Supernatural Hunters". Taking it upon themselves to rid the world of darkness. But that runs into the same problem that you get with a group of Eaters of the Dead Werewolves: After a while, you're definitely going to run out of trouble to deal with. Hell, most Werewolf Tribes have that problem. After a while you'll probably clean up your city with bloody violence, and there won't be much Sacred Prey for you. Spirits and Humans are the ones that are least likely to "run out", but just how many Hosts/Werewolves/Claimed/Worthwhile Humans/Worthwhile Spirits can there be in a City?
That would be a problem... if Mage was localised. It's not. At least not to the city level.
These guys travel around. Searching for signs of vampires being in control. When they find some, they try to take them out as quickly and as definitively as they can, and then move on.
And yeah. They are Free Council/Adamantine Arrow.
So, not only would these mages be attacking all vampires, but virtually every other powerful supernatural force. That's far worse.
The cabal is effectively declaring war against everyone without approval. In the default setting, no consilium or convocation would ever ignore such an obvious and unnecessary risk that the cabal would present to all mages in the area. At best, I imagine that even the most militant and sympathetic Free Councilors would question whether the cabal's efforts couldn't be better directed at Seers, the actual servants of the Exarchs.
After a few attempted kills, the cabal would almost certainly be painfully and publicly eradicated by mages backed by vampires, werewolves, and others for no other reason than an object lesson on how the Awakened should NOT behave.
Yeah, it's true. If a bunch of stuff came out that sort of ripped off WoD and they did nothing, when something came along that clearly DID rip off WoD, a judge could cite failure to defend in the past.
It's pretty localized. Mages are still human, and even if a Consilium could theoretically cover a whole coast, most Mages are going to only care about the places they.. care about. Like, your secret bunker may lead to the depths of the ocean, but the door is in Wyoming and the people you know are in Wyoming.
They really didn't. There are so many better things to go after than Underworld. Hell, Dresden Files had come out by that point. Nevermind all the vampire novels. Vampire Dairies was written around the same time WoD was becoming popular (hell, it came out before VtM). Not to mention how derivative White Wolf games are to begin with.
And a bunch of stuff came out that DID (ostensibly) rip off WoD. Hell, I wouldn't even be surprised if that--and "you ripped off The Vampire Chronicles"--actually came up in deliberation.
>So, not only would these mages be attacking all vampires, but virtually every other powerful supernatural force. That's far worse.
No. Not all other supers.
>Werewolves, when they go after humans.
Unless the setting has changed radically, and I haven't noticed, man-eaters are still frowned upon.
>Spirits, when they break into the world.
Bloody half of the werewolves in existence thinks spirits should stay on the other side of the gauntlet.
>Other, random supernatural entities that prey on humanity.
Who would get pissy when these get taken down?
>It's pretty localized. Mages are still human, and even if a Consilium could theoretically cover a whole coast, most Mages are going to only care about the places they.. care about. Like, your secret bunker may lead to the depths of the ocean, but the door is in Wyoming and the people you know are in Wyoming.
As DaveB said. It makes no sense to keep Mage local when 10% of all starting characters can teleport between cities. This cabal would be active in most of northern Europe (British Isles, Scandinavia, and the BeNeLux, to be precise). They move around for their strikes, for the express purpose NOT to draw ire to the local mages.
Oh, right. Yeah, for the Vampire hunters that makes sense. For actual political stuff, most people are going to care about a few places, or do like corporations and manipulate their interests across a wide range (but usually corps have more people).
I feel like you're overreacting. I mean, for one, you're acting like this is the kind of setting where everything is set in stone. It's not like there's some big meeting of all the local supernaturals.
How can they be "not supernatural" werewolves? Those eyes don't look natural.
>Oh, right. Yeah, for the Vampire hunters that makes sense. For actual political stuff, most people are going to care about a few places, or do like corporations and manipulate their interests across a wide range (but usually corps have more people).
Myeah. I was thinking that if Archaeomancers can be international, so can other mages with a mission.
>you're acting like this is the kind of setting where everything is set in stone
No. One of the setting points of CofD that intentionally differed from classic WOD is that while supernaturals generally know of one another, supernatural groups don't inherently hate one another and are not conflict.
Additionally, in Mage, the primary purposes of the consilium and convocation is the keep peace among mages, provide defense against threats, and maintain a semblance of law and order. If a cabal was hunting all vampires in an area and other supernaturals, they would basically be declaring war without asking other aligned mages who would be at risk of reprisal and retribution. Unless vampires were arbitrarily attacking mages, wanton hunting is precisely the type of behavior that other mages would severely frown upon and potentially punish.
Under the default setting, it's certainly feasible for a specific cabal to be engaged in a conflict with a particular and limited group of vampires. However, the risks involved with indiscriminate hunting would not normally be tolerated by any Order or consoliium. It's something that would be done by a rogue cabal, who should shortly expect themselves to become the hunted by vampires and other mages.
>tfw you will never play in the MtAw game that spans the 1960s, dealing with the Pentacle's increasingly dirty tactics (inspired by the Sleepers in power at the time)
>you will never save a hippie commune from the astral parasites it thinks are benevolent aliens
>you will never see the Silver Ladder realized in the form of an Apollo mission
>you will never burn down Cambodian jungle with raw magical power
These guys don't hate vampires because they're mages, they hate vampires because THEY'RE VAMPIRES. You can definitely have a group of Mages with a hate-on for Vampires. Plenty of those likely already exist.
You're also assuming that the different groups all know about and communicate with one another. When I say "this isn't a setting where things are set in stone", I mean that many Mages may not know vampires exist, and likewise many vampires may not know Mages exist. The vampires who DO exist may not be the kind who organize into great Covenants that control cities from the shadows.
You're acting like killing vampires is going to start a Dresden Files style Vampire vs Wizard war.
Under the default setting, this would work just fine. I mean, Christ, nevermind that HUNTER is a splat, and they apparently get away with it.
If you run it, they will play.
I'm planning on homebrewing a merit that lets you substitute Int for Wits when calculating defense. Defense still will be calculated by the lowest attribute, tho. I know that Scion has Mind over Matter with similar themes, but is there already a merit for what I'm about to write down?
I felt like giving a choice for people when they want to build defensive characters. Away from the usual max Wits and Dex. I mean, with Atavism you have to do mentally stupid character to benefit from it, but you can't make an intelligent finesse fighter.
Can anyone see any downsides for this attempt?
What makes you say they're "less stingy"? As far as I'm aware, other than Wolfblooded Tells, you can't stack templates.
If it's just a magic item, yeah, anyone can use that, just like anyone can use the Cursed Items. Although presumably Demons, Werewolves and Beasts can't use the ones that have activation rolls with Morality/Integrity, since theirs isn't comparable. Then again, I could see the argument for Demons being able to use Cover for those kind of objects, and I could see the argument for Werewolves using Harmony-as-Integrity for certain morality based things, since Flesh is High Harmony. Then again, with Cursed Objects, you could even argue that inverse Harmony is better, since being more Spiritual means being able to use CUUUUURSED OBJEEEE~EECTS easier.
There were cursed objects in the GMC, right? I'm not misremembering?
Anyone know anything about VtM:B's console commands? I'm trying to mess around with things instead of moving on with the story because I've been told Hollowbrook Hotel is "the nadir" of the game. When I try to use the "map *" command to load up a map, I get there as a Male Toreador with 1 dot in everything.
Then again, Andrei's down in the basement, but his dialogue is for the next encounter, so it's not like redoing 609 King's Way will unbug Isaac's dialogue.
His name's Brother Owl.
>'ve only really had huge problems with it in like Awakening 1e, where I literally can't read the headers
Me either. There's a subheading in Awakening 1e's corebook where the meaning of the text following it completely changes depending on if it says "enhanced items" or "enchanted items", and to this day I can't tell which it is.
The new heading font is much clearer.
Not for want of opportunities. So, the first time I got offered a WoD book was when one of Vampire or Demon had slipped schedule-wise so that they were being written simultaneously, which near killed me. And led to things like the Strix rules being written on an ipad during a transatlantic flight, I was so pressed for time.
Which is why I turned down writing the first cWoD book offered to me, as it would have immediately followed on and I needed a break.
For a while, during its Outlining, I was going to break my streak of not working on the cWoD with Black Hand, but once again scheduling got in the way. I think that time it was Storypath.
I did write one of the Translation Guides, though.
>Additionally, in Mage, the primary purposes of the consilium and convocation is the keep peace among mages, provide defense against threats, and maintain a semblance of law and order. If a cabal was hunting all vampires in an area and other supernaturals, they would basically be declaring war without asking other aligned mages who would be at risk of reprisal and retribution. Unless vampires were arbitrarily attacking mages, wanton hunting is precisely the type of behavior that other mages would severely frown upon and potentially punish.
Eh. Vampires are not nearly as unified as mages, and they are ALSO a lot more provincial. So yeah, perhaps this kind of behaviour might cause the vampires of one city to declare war on mages in general. But if it is the official ruling of the Prince (or equivalent), their political opponents won't work very hard for it. But if it's a covenant who calls for it, it's most likely just that covenant who will be warring, the others are likely to stay out.
Was reading D:tD core book. Demonic pacts seem to make no sense.
The book claims that demons often create contracts tilted towards the demon. But to make that kind of a contract you pay MORE than if you create a contact that gives a mortal the same, or even much more.
What's the point of even trying to deceive a mortal, if you do not lose anything giving him more. Isn't that the easy way?
Am I missing something?
Vampires may be a little more insular or local than mages, but they're not stupid. They are more than capable of communicating and uniting to deal with a clear and present threat to all of them. Further, the fact that vampire society is near despotic actually makes it much easier and quicker to deal with such threats, instead of the politicking usually required in a consilium.
Moreover, vampires are similarly more than capable of using phones and email, and warning (or requesting assistance) from outside their particular cities.
Finally watched the second Episode of The Magicians on SyFy.
The show is tolerable, but certainly not great.It's not a very good direct inspiration for Mage stories, but some of the effects and setting do help capture some of the feel of modern, urban magic and the Arcana.
The worst part of the show is that all the characters are just so damn unsympathetic and whiny. Since I haven't read Lev Grossman's books, I'm not sure if its the characters themselves, bad acting, or both. Maybe with a few more episodes, things will improve.
I also made the mistake of watching all three episodes so far of Shadowhunters on ABC Family / Freeform. The show is little more than watching a 14 year old girl's WOD fanfiction. Ugh.
>His name's Brother Owl.
Will Brokeback Moros be returning in 2e?
BTW, have you seen all the new Mage art? Can you assure us there will be nothing even remotely similar to contorted Silver Ladder Guy and Unicycle Obrimos?
>Glorianna calls magic a secret science, accessible through a mixture of reason and intuition. She always loved making things, and exposure to the Aether only supplemented her prodigious knowledge of physics and engineering. A techné specialist in the Free Council, Glorianna builds upon the efforts of Sleeper scientists, mechanics and engineers. She sees Hermes stir in wheels and engines, wakes him up, and makes him run his paces in everything from automata to directed energy weapons.
I really don't care if Glorianna is one of the signature characters, although I don't personally find her very compelling.
I only ask that she not look like an goofy adolescent riding a unicycle in the circus.
When I think "Obrimos," I tend to envision extremes, either a character of very strong faith, if not actual classic religion, or someone like a physicist, judge, or police officer. A mechanic would certainly fit in.
I see rules, authority, dogma and power, but definitely not unicycles.
Jokes are jokes, but I'd give plenty of money to a kickstarter for a World of Darkness book focused on aliens. Not fakeout spirits/fairies/astral entities/whatever. Actual aliens, flying saucers from space. Probably wouldn't be a "line" really since the subject of aliens in horror fiction is just too broad to focus on any to extant of all others (plus, their whole shtick is they have to be kinda mysterious. If you're playing them, you're losing some of the charm), but like - grays, men in black, saurians, Nordics, UFOs, alien parasites, psychic forces from outer space. That's like a huge portion of the horror genre WoD never really put a serious attempt into tackling. Yeah, yeah, there are all kinds of excuses for that, but that's the thing. They're excuses.
I'd pay for an alien book.
Welcome to Entropy, the one sphere that no one really knows what the fuck it does. Googling around for a good guide have me this Reddit thread: https://m.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/279594/mage_entropy_sphere_wat/
Hopefully it'll help you out.
Everntually or immediately, you're coming for parts of their life or their entire identity. No matter how the Mortal might be feeling when you give then shit, that's always in the Demon's favor. Even if it's just "your mother-in-law for a cruise boat", the Mortal has no idea what they're getting into, and may be tempted into giving more away.
Splitting it into Fate and Death was by far the smartest decision White Wolf ever made for Mage. Not only did it clear up the confusion, the 2e versions of both Arcanae rock out loud.
The lower it is, the higher your chance to have a situation where you might dramatically fail. Which gives worse Conditions. Integrity is also sometimes the dice pool or affects a dice pool as modifier. Dispelling through Dissonance is done by rolling Integrity, high Integrity helps with exorcism.
Yeah, it is not much.
Sources also seem to contradict each other on whether it can fall to 0 or not. Most developers and writers that spoke up said the lowest it can be is 1, but then we get rules that specifically talk about dropping to Integrity 0 (see the Hateful House in CofD Core).
The Integrity section itself never clarifies it, not even in the Core.
>Sources also seem to contradict each other on whether it can fall to 0 or not. Most developers and writers that spoke up said the lowest it can be is 1, but then we get rules that specifically talk about dropping to Integrity 0 (see the Hateful House in CofD Core).
>The Integrity section itself never clarifies it, not even in the Core.
2e core seems to be incredibly fucking sloppy in general.
Yeah, that's just how they are. It's fine to me because I don't need all my characters to be unlikeable, especially in a book series whose main thesis is "Narnia's some fucking bullshit, huh?", but it's not going to be for everyone.
Second Edition in general is just an entire mess. From its origins to its release rate to its ruleset issues, we're getting to the point where we probably need a third edition.
I guess I'm not going to bother reading the Lev Grossman books.
I hope Jim Butcher gets his act together and finally finishes Peace Talks for the Dresden Files.
Of course, I could dream really big and hope Mage 2e is actually released before 2036.
I'm pretty sure it could handle both. Evil Dead's the easiest, and you could make a decent Deadite using Dread Powers. You might need Armory for the Army of Darkness stuff, for the archaic weapons.
I wouldn't say that we need a third edition, just some quality errata and FAQs that comb through the books and fix or clarify problem points, as well as some "Rules Only" PDFs for when STs and Players are in the heat of the game. I enjoy the books and the writings within them, but if I have to make a 10-15 page note sheet detailing all of the important bits to in game play for a 200+ page book, there is a problem.
If you need to do that do all the books three years into your new edition, you might as well just get the WoD equivalent of the Ink Monkeys and make a 2.5 edton or something. A WoD Compendium wouldn't be a bad idea though.
The problem mostly stems from everything important being all over the god damn place, and all of the various fluff and such that only gets in my way when I'm running or playing game takes up more than half the book. I love reading the fluff when I'm not playing the game because it gives me some inspiration, but while playing it does nothing but make things take longer when I'm looking up hard rules.
It would certainly help to just have one source for all the rules from all the lines, or at least have one book in each line, maybe near the end of the initial line run, that's similar to the D&D Rules Compendium or Reign: Enchiridion. Something for someone to pitch in the future, I suppose.
Of course not. They aren't an established series. There aren't enough books released for them to have that popularity.
We'll see after book 3 if they sold well enough for the publisher to extend the deal (plans are for 9 books, but the series is endable after 3 and 6 too).
Mike knows how large he ordered the art pieces and where they belong in the text. Lay out the words to make space for the art, get art, insert art. That way Dark Eras gets out the door faster once all the art comes in, and he can move on to Mage and Promethean.
>The problem mostly stems from everything important being all over the god damn place
Who doesn't love skipping through five pages whenever looking up anything important? I really need to get around to making a cheat sheet for ̶m̶y̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ my players if I'm going to run Werewolf AND Vampire...
Anyone remember the WoD Merits Compendium? Stuff like that and rp.thesubnet.com is invaluable.
Why? This isn't... German or something. Even without weird gender identities, English barely has enough pronouns as is.
A casual survey of any of our books will reveal that our artwork is ordered to a few set sizes - splat pictures are so much, half-pagers, full pagers at the start of chapters, etc. All Mike would need to do is put a blank image of the correct size in where a piece is still missing.
Spirits reflect the immediate feeling about a subject on the other side of the Gauntlet.
Goetia reflect people's thoughts about a subject, in aggregate.
A fame spirit will pop into existence near to events like premiers and try to create notoriety so it can feed. A Goetia of a famous person reflects what everyone in the world thinks of them.
None of the second editions have one.
Kickstarter don't allow you to run two campaigns at once, and it takes so much effort that the people responsible need a break between them. So, if OPP want to kickstart the massive, fat WoD 20th anniversary books and their own Scion and Trinity books, there's not that much room for Chronicles of Darkness kickstarters. New game lines like Mummy, Demon, and Beast (and Deviant) get one, large multi-line projects like Dark Eras get one.
>"They, meaning many, cannot be *a* good friend"
This is exactly what I mean! We use a plural pronoun for singular! We even conjugate pronouns differently depending on where they are in a sentence. Why do we need he/his? Look at this garbage, who came up with this language? Why am I talking about messy languages on two threads? I really need to get out more when linguistics comes up in casual conversation more than once...
I think the question is more "why don't the 2e corebooks get kickstarted". And the answer to that is ostensibly the nWoD stuff is selling more readily because it's fans have kept up to date, while the oWoD needs kickstarters to drum up attention and interest. Kickstarters sell much better than the regular books, and certain side projects need that a lot more. Dark Eras got a Kickstarter because it was supposed to be last years version of a game line book (not that Beast has been fully released yet anyway). So Dark Eras got Kickstarted, Beast got Kickstarted, Deviant will get Kickstarted, Mummy got Kickstarted, and Demon got Kickstarted.
Mage 2e didn't, Promethean 2e didn't, Changeling 2e didn't, and Hunter 2e won't. They're just game line updates, not new exciting things that people aren't as likely to find accidentally by searching through DrivethruRPG.
Plus, they'd be running Kickstarters all the damned time if they did, and they're worried about "Kickstarter Fatigue" if they run one all the time. I figure there's also a chance they'd end up shooting themselves in the foot if they make a Kickstarter and it turns out no one wanted that thing. They didn't get enough people for the Changeling: The Dreaming Ultra Deluxe version, for instance.
The way it was explained last time (like I said above), nWoD isn't in much need of Kickstarters for the 2es, but more so to create hype for things like Demon and Beast. We're interested in Deviant, but most WoD/CofD fans don't know what it is.
Did atamajakki ever succeed in joining those one-percenters? And did he ever get his Urotsukidoji/Justified/Werewolf: The Apocalypse crossover LARP off the ground?
>I really need to get around to making a cheat sheet for ̶m̶y̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ my players if I'm going to run Werewolf AND Vampire...
Does anyone have any advice for this, actually? What am I going to need to remember that's probably scattered across six pages or never actually directly mentioned?
No, Aspel hates Apocalypse. You're mixing people up.
I'm not mixing people up, because I'm not Aspel. I hate Apocalypse and have zero interest in Forsaken.
The shitposter that always talks about me in these threads has me confused for some random reddit user he doesn't like. If the username isn't atamajakki. It isn't me: period.
People have apparently mistaken atamajakki with two people: Hentai Larp-Chan and some anti-Semite on Reddit. Also sometimes Carmilla. WoD internet drama is weird.
Technically it's been the redheaded stepchild since 2004. It takes up most of the gaming discussion, though, so in the end it's beloved where it counts.
So, just for fun, if your WoD/CofD game was a movie/video game with a soundtrack, what songs would you include in it?
Here's my picks for the soundtrack to a Requiem 1e game I am running right now.
>Meat Loaf: Bat Out of Hell
>Nazareth: Hair of the Dog
>Iron Maiden: Wasted Years
>The Doobie Brothers: China Grove
>AC/DC: Highway to Hell
>Alice Cooper: He's Back! (The Man Behind The Mask)
>Creedence Clearwater Revival: Bad Moon Rising
>Beastie Boys: No Sleep Til Brooklyn
>Rob Zombie: Dragula
>Motley Crue: Wild Side
>KISS: Detroit Rock City
>Ozzy Osbourne: I Don't Wanna Stop
>Dio: Holy Diver
>Grand Funk Railroad: Some Kind of Wonderful
>Lynyrd Skynyrd: Saturday Night Special
>The Sisters of Mercy: This Corrosion
>Ministry: Everyday is Halloween
>Black Sabbath: Paranoid
>Blue Cheer: Summertime Blues
You've been out of the loop.
Onyx Path has been doing "20th Anniversary Editions" of the oWoD games, with new books and a 'metaplot agnostic' approach; Storytellers choose what did and did not happen.
Recently, Paradox Interactive bought the rights to White Wolf, and will be publishing Fourth Editions of the oWoD games. We don't know what the metaplot will look like.
>Aspel is the one posting pdfs of his shitty homebrews
>Hentai LARP-Chan was the one who was obsessed with bikers and running a revenge fantasy LARP. Most likely, he was a blatant troll trying to shitpost and bait us.
>Camilla is a well-meaning but utterly clueless moron who loves 1e nWoD but hates 2e nWoD/CofD because he thinks the God-Machine stuff is metaplot along the lines of oWoD. He loves Grand Theft Auto and mafia/gangster films and shows like Goodfellas, The Sopranos, and Breaking Bad and claims to hate personal horror. Turns out he actually likes personal horror, but doesn't realize it because he thinks personal horror is the same as teenage goth/emo edginess.
>Implying people don't like them
I mean, I *really* hate to toot that horn, but one of the developers did say they're better handled than most of the ones he sees; plus people have been interested in the Geist homebrew (just not when it comes to making many suggestions).
Still need a better Curse for these guys, by the way. One suggestion I got was that they need to "Rule" over others, specifically their Touchstones, but I can't think of a way to phrase that. I want something that encourages playing the sort of concept I've laid them out to be: i.e. creepy eccentric aristocrats.
atamajakki, Aspel, Hentai Larp-Chan, and Camilla all have weaboo tendencies based on their posts on this board and on Onyx Path's forums but I can summarize them and their annoying weebishness in brief.
>atamajakki: Weeb with mistaken identity
>Aspel: Weeb who is also a failed writer and a failure at making homebrew WoD content
>Hentai Larp-Chan: Weeb who is either a dumb edgelord who watches too much Sons of Anarchy and Justified, or just a troll.
>Camilla: Guido Weeb who wishes he was a mobster and runs his 1e nWoD games in accordance to said wish fulfillment, hence his GTA/oWoD crossover idea and his "The Sopranos with fangs" Requiem campaign.
Also, if I remember correctly, atamajakki always proclaims who he is, and Aspel is easy to identify with the pdfs he posts.
Camilla can be spotted when someone mentions disliking the God-Machine, Strix, 2e nWoD, or anything dealing with metaplot. Or if someone mentions mixing GTA.,The Sopranos, or any other crime-related fiction with Vampire: The Requiem.
Hentai Larp-Chan hasn't posted in almost a year, which lends further credence to the idea that he was a troll, but is theoretically easy to spot if someone were to mention loving bikers (specifically the Outlaws MC), hentai (specifically Urotsukidoji), and hating goths and punks. (To be fair, Camilla and Aspel also expressed dislike of the Goth subculture, but neither of them are as adamant and hilariously militant about it as Hentai Larp-Chan was)
Also, didn't Hentai Larp-Chan claim to live in upstate New York but grow up in the Appalachian Mountains of rural Kentucky?
It's weird how everyone calls me a weeb for the magical girls and catgirl bloodline. My weeb friends think I'm a normie who only knows DBZ and what was popular three years ago.
Probably! But you try dealing with this shit all the time! "Oh, your shit sucks, everyone hates you, nothing you do has anyone like it at all" because some guy keeps going through the threads and obsessing over me.
The 20th Anniversary Editions don't really bother with that stuff. If you want it, you can have it, but their assumption seems to be that it didn't. It's the CORE GAME, with a few of the updates. So you can play your Ravnos or your Gangrel or even be a Salubri, because they're a rare and secret clan, not a "there are only X members" clan.
I barely post the pdfs. You can spot me because I type the same way every time, which mostly means replying to three or more posts at the same time as if I were an expert on the subject in question, or felt that my advice was important (though to be fair I do tend to avoid saying what's already been said, and go with posts that don't have many replies).
Also, I think Hentai Larp-chan was Camilla, if that's the case, since the whole Sopranos thing lead right into the LARP, and they expressed the same feelings towards personal horror. Also, I don't really hate goths all that much. I think I hate them less than most people, honestly, it's just not my thing, and the more self-indulgent stuff is trite.
That's a Ban.
No, see, then I'd have to roll Humanity or stay Humanity-10 yards away.
When the Relic Creator merit says 'limited use items' what does it mean? Like it can only have a limited number of powers, or can only be used in certain situations, or can only be used a certain number of times?
No, I am not that troll. While I don't like the goth subculture (it's not really my thing) and never really cared for certain types of personal horror (specifically the 2edgy4u personal horror White Wolf pushed in Revised Edition Old World of Darkness), I do like other types of "personal horror" such as the stuff found in crime dramas like Breaking Bad, Goodfellas, and The Shield.
Plus, I never liked bikers anyway. I'm more of a fan of the classic Italian Mafia in fiction. The Sopranos blows Sons of Anarchy out of the water any day of the week.
>Probably! But you try dealing with this shit all the time! "Oh, your shit sucks, everyone hates you, nothing you do has anyone like it at all" because some guy keeps going through the threads and obsessing over me.
You should still ignore it. The less you acknowledge people like this, the happier your life is. Unless of course, you enjoy this sort of thing, in which case, carry on but try not to do it when you enter the professional field of your choice. When you're a professional, only do it when it has the potential to be really, really funny.
Addendum to the previous post: I like classic Gothic fiction (like Edgar Allan Poe) even if I don't care for the modern goth scene (due to some douchebags I know IRL who are goths).
Also, I live in North Carolina nowadays (originally I'm from Washington DC/Northern Virginia) and have never lived in Kentucky or the state of New York.
tl;dr, Hentai Larp-Chan was a case of obvious troll is obvious and we should forget about him.
Anybody here ever read Vampire: The Masquerade's first edition? Or any 1e oWoD material?
The mechanics suck, but these books have a certain feel and atmosphere I like. Something that the later 2e and Revised books lack, as well as CofD lacks as well. I would say lack of the metaplot, but that's not really it. It's something else, some sort of haunting and mysterious quality I can't quite put my finger on.
I kind of like 1e oWoD books, and it's cool to see how the World of Darkness originated. One thing I really dig is how the 1e corebook for Masquerade is essentially a distant sequel to Ars Magica.
Working on a Werewolf cheat sheet now. How do I interpret this?
>• She can move close enough to use her teeth and claws against one opponent who isn’t attacking her.
It's from the Irraka Blessing. I actually have an Irraka in my game, so that's kind of important. Is it Reflexive? Is it Instant? Do they get to attack? Is there a range limit, or can you see someone using a sniper scope to look at you, then when they put the scope down you're right there? Is Davy Jones an Irraka?
I've been meaning to look over Vampire: The Masquerade GURPS eventually.
I haven't been able to find 1e VtM, but I do have 1e Mage the Ascension and every time I read it I crack a smile. Even there, I'd agree, there's an energy and atmosphere to it that not even the later editions capture. Wraith 1e is just a total mess though.
Okay, I know this is unrelated, but I got to know: many people are SAYING that Oxenfree is an SJW game about gay people, but seriously - I finished the game. I found all the secret letters. I found most of the anomalies.
Where in it are those gay people people like so much to talk about?
Oh, well, that's actually a lot more comforting.
The only thing that really confuses me is how much of Mage Mike actually worked on considering that two weeks ago he said that he was working on it's layout.
Also, can someone post the list of stuff that's going to be in SoS again? All I remember is that perfected materials are in it and my favorite legacy can't function without them.
What the heck are you people talking about?
>Oxenfree is set on an abandoned island, which is visited by some teenagers for a party, until they accidentally open a supernatural rift.
Don't you just hate when that happens?
Sounds like good WoD material, but also the kind of thing that would get criticized for being "not a real game".
The only things I can think of are:
1. While playing truth or dare near the beginning you can say you'd marry or screw Nona or Clarissa (in fact, since your options are Nona, Clarissa and Ren, and you can only kill one of them, you HAVE to either marry or screw a girl, no matter what you do), but Alex is so obviously joking I have a hard time believing anyone would take this as an indication of anything.
2. Margaret Adler and Anna's story, which is relayed through the letters. It's never said that they were romantically involved in any way, but Margaret clearly cared about Anna a very great deal, so MAYBE that could interpreted as them being lesbians. I still think it's kind of a stretch, since I'd definitely remember a childhood friend whom I've accidentally killed for the rest of my life, but you never know what people would make of a story.
You should never discount people's opinions based off of a single phrase. That just makes you as indoctrinated as anyone else. There are games that you could definitely say are made by SJWs, for SJWs and are marketed by the creators with that purpose.
Why do epistolary stories still exist? They are the worst, most lazy way of telling a story.
It's about teenagers who explore an island including an abandoned military outpost which is filled with mysterious radio anomalies. Soon, they find out that those anomalies allow them to communicate with
the ghosts of 97 sailors who died when a US submarine was sunk near the island due to a case of friendly fire. The submarine was carrying an experimental reactor, and when it exploded, it somehow trapped the consciousnessnes of the people onboard in some kind of extradimensional time-loop.As the game proceeds, the anomalies grow more severe and eventually mature into more and more frequent, more significant time-loops, potentially allowing people to change major events in their lives.The radio entities possess the teenagers over the night, with their control growing more and more thorough. Ultimately, they wish to escape the other dimension by taking over the teens' bodies. The last time they tried it was when Maggie and Anna experimented with the anomalies 40 years ago, but then, the "radio ghosts" were still new to this and their attempt to possess Anna destroyed her body.
In short, its got an urban legend/campfire tale kind of atmosphere, a military conspiracy (albeit of a very realistic kind -
less of a "secret mind control experiment", more of a "trying to hide the major scandal of having accidentally sunk one of our own submarines from the public), time travel shenanigans, radio ghosts, ghost radiowaves, and possession via ghost radiowaves.
It was WRITTEN as a Godmachine Chronicles story.
That guy is a moron. The neutral they is old as fuck and its the correct way to refer to an ambiguous subject.
The rest is dumb though. In my country mother and father is a banned word because everything has to be gender neutral.
>In my country mother and father is a banned word because everything has to be gender neutral.
Hey, how else are you going to fight the Paternoster?
>Being this plebeian.
Epistolary stories are great, and I wish it wasn't a dead art form. If anything, they're less lazy, since you have restrictions on format and viewpoint that you don't get in other methods of storytelling.
Although I will say that too often diaries end in scratched out pages and emails are sent that end in Aaaaaahkjlm;,./ but someone still hit SEND.
On the one hand, neat. On the other, the Numbers Stations section of Summoners scares the poop out of me.
Why do I get the feeling that means "on legal documents they no longer use mother and father and instead use more neutral terms like legal guardian". Which is a thing the US has done since even before people started going "but what about single fathers and the gays!"
>Not knowing what "ban" means
These are the same kind of people who think "being chastized" means "censorship".
Sure. It's foremost in my mind at the moment, as I redlined Signs over last weekend.
Signs is about how reality in Awakening's setting isn't as simple as young mages are told. Like someone on a Physics degree finding that most of what they were taught in High School is gross simplification (and occasional flat-out lie), the truth is that the Supernal and Fallen Worlds aren't walled off from one another, forever, except for spells.
Mages seek Mysteries.We're clear in 2e that the majority of things mage characters will go chasing after aren't of Supernal origin - fandumb theorycrafting threads aside, mages don't assume everything is to do with them, or the Supernal. Any confusion about Arcadia is almost entirely on the part of changelings who hear "fae" and panic, for example: Acanthus know they're not the same, and a glance with Sight reinforces that.
Signs is about the Mysteries that *are* of Supernal Origin.
In rough order of business:
A chapter about Mage Sight, expanding 2e's rules for it, giving rules for Supernal Environments like Singing Paths, Crypts, and Thorns that affect mages using their Sight within them, and expanded powers for Supernal Entities from the compressed info in the Awakening 2e core.
A chapter about Yantras and ritual casting, expanding on the 2e core.
A chapter about mages crafting magical items and leaving tangible expressions of spells - the seven perfected metals, other possible perfected materials, limited-charge imbued items, imbued life forms, imbued ephemeral entities, imbued environments, spells that alter how you relinquish spells, and the Awakened's culture of crafting.
A chapter about the metaMystery that is the thousands of years of scholarship by the Orders and mages attempting to leave something that survives them - Grimoires, Souls Stones, Daimononika, Nimbus, and spells dealing with them. Also an expansion on the "requisitioning stuff out of your Order" system in the 2e core.
From the blurb for Signs of Sorcery:
>This book covers the physical, tangible expressions of magic: Sacraments, Magical Tools, Grimoires, and more, as well as the creations of archmages.
I believe Dave said it also includes material about the Awakening and Emanation Realms, as as the Atlantean creatures like Anake and Temple Guardians.
>MTAs – Rich Bastard’s Guide to Magick: A Mage 20th Anniversary Edition sourcebook that expands on the mystique of the elite with an exploration of how the REAL movers and shakers operate when you throw magick into their world as well. Mansions, high-ticket toys, expanded Backgrounds for wealthy wizards, Technocrats, and other high-resource types. 120 pages. PDF/PoD.
Was this a M20 Kickstarter stretch goal? What an oddly specific source book.
They really only 'run out' if they are successful every time, in a timely fashion.
I'd imagine it would be less like hunting out an area then being on a serial killer task force and catching the guy. Take a few days off and celebrate, then start looking into any murders or dissperances that might fit a pattern and say you've got more work to do.
A chapter on the Supernal manifest in the world - Artifacts, Sariras, Astras, "platonic items" which have taken on Supernal properties because they've become symbols of themselves, Supernal Verges, Emanation Realms, symbolic places (try using your Prime Sight at the Nevada testing range, or casting a battle spell in the ruins of Troy), Ochemata, Archmages, Temple Guardians, Cryptids... A whole big bag of things to tantelize mage characters.
And a chapter about the Awakening itself, including weird edge-case Awakenings like the guy in Boston Unveiled who got thrown 300-ish years forward in time when he Awakened, and playing though the process with an existing character.
Am I the only person that thinks a setting only needs one world next door for people to wander in? Stuffing the spirit world, dead world and fairy world into one unified elsewhere makes the setting feel like a setting, rather then a dozen different games deliberately walled off from each other with minimal interaction like the lunch of an autistic kid that will freak out if peas touch potatoes.
No. It's the proper Thorns, in Mage!Arcadia. Spikey, reflective rope-like threads cracked in the air, that manifest around branching timelines in the Mage Sight of Acanthus.
(I kid, mostly. I just get asked that a lot).
Here's my hot hot opinion on epistolary stories: found footage and archive trawling games always do it better, and the true natural progression of the epistolary medium.
A more unified setting might also avoid this sort of thing where the same terms get recycled a dozen times and people are trying to figure out what the hell a beast is.
And when you invent a time machine so you can tell the first-ed CofD authors so, can you leave it with the keys in outside my house, as there's some things I'd like to go back and sort out myself.
That ship has *way* sailed.
"Watchtower of the Lunargent Thorn," Anon.
Well, maybe if nWoD wasn't so intent on having a billion definitions for the same word across different gamelines people wouldn't be so confused! Demon, Daemon, Demon, Demon, ect.
I pretty much figured you meant mage sight thorns when I reread the sentence but by then it was too late and the post was already sent. It does get a bit frusterating explaining to my players the difference between the different terms, especially since 5 years later they still get confused between owod and nwod.
I don't think its a problem at all. The different worlds are all part of one ecosystem and its not like the different splats are locked in one world and can't enter the others. Anyone can go to the underworld or shadow, even the Astral in some way. The only world that seems walled off is the Hedge and Arcadia since none of the other gamelines want to accept that they exist.
Usually you're finding letters from a time when people did write letters. Also, people these days write MORE than before. There's a lot MORE conceptual space for the epistolary format. Found Footage films is one way of doing it, but more than that you can have an entire book made up of email exchanges, chat logs, Tweets, blog posts, and status updates.
I have no idea why you think it's all about handwritten letters and only letters.
I like that there are a dozen walled off secret realities. I mean, I hate it when it's like Planescape/D&D, where you've got the Prime Material and the Water world and Air world and Plane of Elemental Whatevers. But I like secret realms like the Hedge and the Shadow and the Underworld, places where I could make a Mage who explores all that shit.
Hunter even has a whole plot hook devoted to "photos from an alternate reality".
Found Footage is good in theory, but you really need to be willing to switch things up. Use webcams, iphones, security cameras, that kind of thing. I'd like to see more of that kind of thing outside of horror, but then again it's kind of got that "found footage" thing hanging over it. Still, a movie about someone documenting their life might be interesting. Sidenote; House of Leaves is great.
I feel that at a certain point it's impossible to avoid terminology overlap, especially since some terms people are just going to come to naturally and sometimes you'll get people using the same generic term for different things (which happens even in real world disciplines; "Libertarian" for instance) but at the same time "Beast" is really difficult to talk about when concerning Vampire.
You hardly need a time machine. These games come out with a reboot faster then Spider Man movies.
Are magical duels going to be covered in 2e? Has anyone actually ever used them? The fact that you need to cast Squaring the Circle beforehand made them pretty much useless for most practical situations.
>Also, people these days write MORE than before.
But they don't write the way they do in epistolaries. Unless you're writing a story in the style of Tao Lin, its going look completely disingenuous.
People never wrote the way they do in epistolaries. But have you ever read a rundown of internet drama? You could definitely make a novel out of that.
Hell, some of those already exist.
Yes, in the 2e corebook actually. They use a variant of the Social Maneuvering system.
The new version of squaring the circle is a Prime that makes your Imagoes visible to mages using their Sight (normally, what a mage is envisioning when casting a spell is entirely in their own mind, although you can tell from their Nimbus that they're casting *something*).
It's used as a teaching tool by the Orders. And also for fighting "here's how much I *could* kick your ass" duels, in which the magical will of the combatants is made visible to Awakened onlookers.
Squaring the circle merely needs someone with a relatively basic knowledge of Prime.
The same proficiency you need for the ever-useful Counterspell Prime.
That's going to be fairly uncommon in any major Mage gathering, and Arcane Duels aren't an Iaijutsu duel in the middle of a grand melee, they're something that's planned out beforehand, usually with a few witnesses to ensure neither party breaks the rules.
>People never wrote the way they do in epistolaries
Exactly, that's why they suck.
> But have you ever read a rundown of internet drama? You could definitely make a novel out of that.
And it's /lit/'s novel of the century.
If you only roll once a week in Social Maneuvering your colosally fucked up the first impression. You basically have to actively be uninterested in influencing someone to put that little effort into it.
Presumably it's treated as if you were Perfect.
One of the big drawbacks with the Social Maneuvering system is that it's a great idea, but most of the rules or powers that work with it seem to assume you're at Perfect, or at least in minutes.
If you actually look at how the system works, it seems like the vast majority of times characters are actually forcing doors. So in situations where your Impression is Average, you'll probably try to roll once to do something to unlock a door or two, then force doors to try and get them to do what you want.
For more drawn out negotiations, you won't force doors and you'll take your time, but if you're doing that you'll probably have it at 1 per day at least.
>That's going to be fairly uncommon in any major Mage gathering, and Arcane Duels aren't an Iaijutsu duel in the middle of a grand melee, they're something that's planned out beforehand, usually with a few witnesses to ensure neither party breaks the rules.
I know, but it still made it a hassle to use when two mages had to resolve a feud. It meant that they pretty much needed an audience and the Consilium backing, which is fine, but wasn't always the easiest solution when you could do something else instead.
Maybe a better time scale would work. Rather then your first impression setting how often you can roll it could give you a bonus or penalty based on your first impression, then time could give you a bonus or penalty? Maybe some actions would be best done slow, some fast?
Like setting someone up for a long con you take a week to make a roll, but attempted seduction goes in hours?
>people think Mages are the best and can roflstomp everything.
Not trying to bait here, realistically can't they? (All things equal like a mage vs werewolf with equal XP given to them)
But Forcing Doors is bad, and you're discouraged from doing it. Any decent Social character is going to avoid that, and forcing it is for the people who think Intimidation is the only useful Social Skill. Especially since by default you basically can never talk to them again. Social Maneuvering is good for swaying a politician or getting laid, but it's really bad for, say, convincing someone to let you into the concert. It's a system that covers good long term stuff, but anything less than that and you're down to "one roll solves everything".
I feel like for most situations, adding Doors works for people who don't like you as much. I mean, the Social Maneuvering system itself is pretty boss, and I like how it works. I just feel like there's a large gap of social situations that aren't covered by it. Pursuit apparently works well for short term stuff, but I haven't really looked over that yet.
I just really like social systems that treat it similar to combat, with a "health" for how willing you are to give in. It's just that some of the Merits and powers that work with it act like you're Perfect. Etiquette and Fast-Talking, for instance.
Tell me more about Pursuit for social combat. Does it actually get much wordcount? You'd have to change half the Pursuit merits (or just allow them to be for both physical and social pursuits). It seems like that only works for a "chase" or debate, not really for convincing someone you're on the level.
Depends on the circumstance. If the Werewolf is anywhere near the Mage, the Werewolf is going to win, because Werewolves are designed to be inherently great at combat while Mages aren't.
Then you get one dice roll to improve it even further. With little investment and effort you can get from Average to Excellent and then it is one roll per hour. Usually sensible.
If you are only rolling once a day you still didn't make much of an effort to improve the impression.
Why aren't you taking attempts a influencing someon serious and putting some effort into it?
>And then you're making one roll per day. This still basically means one roll per game session at best.
work on pacing in-game time. You should only be stuck in a single day in the fiction for an entire session if something really monumental is happening(or combat happens).
Sounds about right for trying to get someone you've only just met to do something for you, honestly.
I mean, you can still improve the impression level further. That's a thing that's possible. And if the interaction is really important and central the session might switch to time lapse mode or something while you play that out in a montage.
>But Forcing Doors is bad, and you're discouraged from doing it.
Forcing Doors is RISKY, not bad. As in, they'll be unwilling to help you again if you push too hard, and they'll be more resistant to giving you what you want in the future if you succeed. Kind of like if you beg your parents to let you go to the movies and you act like an ass, (you fail the roll) they won't let you do it again, but if you succeed, they might let you do it in the future, but it's not gonna get easier to convince them to inconvenience themselves.
>Any decent Social character is going to avoid that
A character who is a Social character will have a significantly easier time doing it then someone who isn't. A sociable, charming person leaning on people to get shit done for them? That sounds crazy.
>forcing it is for the people who think Intimidation is the only useful Social Skill.
No, because Intimidation is not the only skill you use to force doors. You could force doors with other social skills. Expression might be an impassioned speech, Empathy might be a desperate appeal, Persuasion might be laying out the pros and cons, etcetera.
Like regular social maneuvering, it's versatile. You need to understand the actual place it has in getting people to do what you want. It's not INTIMIDATION ONLY, it's cutting to the chase, often in a fashion which might burn bridges if it doesn't work out.
Not really. They have a lot of tools, but it takes a lot of time to use them, and more than that, having tool doesn't really mean you can deal with problems. Mages can do a lot, but especially with 2e they're very academic focused. They have to waste a lot of time to do things right. 2e's damage dealing spells do automatic damage, for instance. A Mage needs to either accurately guess a target's health enough to put them down, or they end up incapacitating a no doubt dangerous enemy. If they overshoot, they've just wasted a bunch of effort and the roll might fail because they forced it too much. They can take time and get a more perfect reading, but in the time it takes you to get someone's measurements, they can punch a hole in your chest. And that's assuming you don't try to OHKO a human and then they turn into a giant nine foot tall murderbeast that instantly heals. Or they can shrug off damage.
Not to mention that Mages DON'T always have the right tools for the job. Most "theorycrafting", as Dave called it, tends to assume the Mage has exactly the right tool for the job (and their opponent doesn't). Most of the time, Mages are going to get themselves killed trying to fight one on one. But then again, this is the World of Darkness. No one really wants to fight one on one, because even if you can and even if you can supernaturally heal, that's resources wasted. Easier to use a sniper rifle or a poison or a bomb.
Frankly, I've had tons of sessions where a whole story could happen in one night.
>I mean, you can still improve the impression level further. That's a thing that's possible
Not just possible, but easy.
Nice surroundings put you at good, even a small bit of Soft Leverage like a gift put you at excellent. From there one more piece of soft leverage or using their Vice puts you at Perfect, which any competent character should be able to easily provide during their first meeting in which the initiate the Social Maneuvering attempt.
If you can't put that minimum effort into influencing someone you really have no business acting as a group's Face or calling yourself a socially focused character.
Apparently I read it wrong, but that leaves all kinds of questions. If you fail, you can never Social Maneuver on someone... but if you successfully force it, you can? I think I actually get it now. Forcing doesn't necessarily mean Hard Leverage. Though I feel like if you use Hard Leverage, even if you DO succeed you should get what you want but still not be able to Social Maneuver on them again. Threatening to shoot someone in the dick makes it hard to befriend them.
But I can see how this might work for flirting. You Force the Doors with a pick up line and if you succeed, bingo bango you get laid, but if you fail they slap you and splash cranberry vodka in your face.
Maybe it was just the way it was written in the GMC (this time I'm reading it in Werewolf, since that's the book I had open) but I associated Forcing Doors with Hard Leverage, i.e. Intimidation.
What are some good inspirations for cities with a big central Mystery? I've got the setting and tone down as well as all the bit pieces and weird shit for players to investigate but I'm having a hard time deciding on a single Mystery that mages across the city have gathered to investigate.
Though to be fair to mages, they will normally walk around with at least one get out of jail free card up their sleeve. Alchemy for example can produce one use teleport items cheaply enough that you could probably provide every Mage in a consilium with one for emergencies.
Don't think of Doors as mental hit boxes. All a characters' doors represent is a penalty to the dice roll of the person trying to persuade them of something. All the SM system does is give mechanics to doing people favors (or blackmailing them) to reduce that penalty ahead of time.
Yeah, Forcing Doors simply means going for an all-out approach. This can be an obvious threat of some kind (even something as simple as "If you do not do this for me, you are dead to me!") or, as you said, an attempt at charm that might just end up making the target feel creeped out.
That being said, depending on how exactly the Doors were Forced, I would not always use the "No Social Maneuvering for you ever again!" bit, if the character SERIOUSLY works on repairing the relationship.
I gave my players a selection of cities to vote on, the central Mysterie were:
1) An inordinate number of Arcadian Verges that are often shifting and moving.
2) People's lives, including memories and relationships, being spontaneously rewritten within the city and only the supernaturally aware realise that, for instance, a guy went from lonely nerd to happily married father of three over night.
3) A major Spirit war, as well as taking place in a major hub for the movement of supernatural artefacts
4) Weird leyline nexuses and armies of ghosts moving through the entire country to Avernian Gates within THIS city.
5) The city suffering from a "Dark Hour" between 23:59 and 00:00 that freezes Sleepers in place and opens it up for easy Abyssal intrusion. Might have been pulled into the Place Between or a spontaneous Abyssal Verge or maybe just the fallout of an Aswadim trying to Seal an Omen.
>This eventually always boils down to preptime arguements and its pointless. Its an endless circle of who is more prepped than the other.
Yeah, I'm not interested in going in that direction either, it's absolutely correct that Werewolves wil shred unprepared mages.
But it would be a disservice to both splats to not mention in the same breath that only rarely will you find that hasn't prepared some way to get out in an emergency.
>insulting the greatest writer of the 21st century
I like to think of it less as mental hitboxes and more a hitbox for the argument. The more you talk, the more you sound like you know what you're doing. It's kind of like a dating sim or an RPG, and done right it kind of feels like some of the conversations in Bloodlines.
My main problem was that I didn't realize Forcing Doors/Hard Leverage weren't synonymous.
Realizing that's not true has really made me like it a lot more, and I'm going to try to use it in my games. If I can ever get ̶o̶f̶f̶ ̶N̶a̶m̶e̶k̶ through Preludes.
Well yeah, but >>45055283. The two best examples I can think of for Social Maneuvering is getting a date or lobbying a politician, and both of those take more effort than a single Presence + Persuasion roll.
Dave, has David ever used his status as Changeling developer to tease you with fake infos about how Mages and Changelings/the Hedge will interact in the Changeling 2e book? Or is that kind of ribbing exclusive to Brits?
I always lose it at the fucking pissbottles, fuck /lit/ is really the best board