4e Pixie Paladin

I know fuck all about 4e, but the idea of an adorably edgy pixie paladin is worth a bump.

>>45027875
It works really fucking well. You can especially abuse that as a pixy you can hide in allies squares so your opponent has to trigger your challenge for extra damage.

Just take CHA powers and you are basically set. I can't think of any difficulty in building a CHA paladin. Could minmax a bit and hybridize with fighter.

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>>45028577

The way I described it to a friend was 'About as evil as the average care bears villain'.

She's not a clever sort but where she came from was diabetes inducing so she's doing her best.

>>45028580

Cool. I was looking into multiclassing Rogue because Pixies get a 'CA on a charge' feat.

Any thoughts on the Soul Reaper paragon path? Or should I go for something else?

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>>45027875
Pixie pally should work fine. Pixie's size and flight should be amusingly abusable for forcing enemies into taking your mark punishment. Remember to pick up Virtuous Strike to have a good basic attack and Ardent Strike for at-will sanctions.

You don't particularly need DEX as a paladin, though I guess it's useful for weapon mastery if you're using heavy blades. You could use it to qualify for MC feats in rogue or assassin. For rogue you could poach some minor action attack powers like Low Slash/Tumbling Strike, though you'll want attack stat level DEX. For assassin, two feats (Shadow Initiate + Cruel Shroud) can get you always on CA against two targets per encounter. You could also have fun times with warlock and it's subclasses. I recall making a gnome paladin|binder hybrid that used gloom pact's boon to turn invisible every time he killed something. Seems like that might combo well with the triggered effects Soul Reaper gives for killing things.

Thematically, You could also incorporate the winter domain of the raven queen. Would blend well with your fey background if you can think up something involving the winter fey/unseelie courts. Also would give you justification to incorporate frostcheese builds...

I'd recommend the 4e charOP guides for more in-depth advice. I believe they're on one of ENWorld's forums since WotC shut down thei'rs

>>45028652

>though I guess it's useful for weapon mastery if you're using heavy blades

As a Pixie, aren't I basically limited to Light Blades due to small size weapons? That's why I went so dex heavy. I need a lot of it for Light Blade Mastery.

>>45028649
>Cool. I was looking into multiclassing Rogue because Pixies get a 'CA on a charge' feat.

Multiclass or hybrid? I would advise against a hybrid for that one, but you could pick up some strikery-ness from hybriding warlock.

>Any thoughts on the Soul Reaper paragon path? Or should I go for something else?

Soul reaper didn't seem really impressive to me.

>>45028677
you got pixie dust magic that makes stuff the appropriate size for you. Though if you use small character rules for them, you can still wield heavy blades, you just need to wield them two-handed. You could get weapon mastery for for light blades, but that needs like 19-21 dex I think.

>>45028692

Multiclass. For the 1/encounter sneak attack.

It seemed like a nice bump to my charge damage and one of my at-wills can be used as a basic attack.

>Soul reaper didn't seem really impressive to me.

Ah, nuts. Any other really good ones for an edgelord pixie?

>>45028730
Monk works nicely. Not as edgelord, though.

>>45028730
Eh, I think Soul Reaper looks okay. It just seems to have more of a leader/controller than a pally would typically want. I can see it being made to work, especially if you hybrid warlock for the added control.

>>45028730
Mite b cool for charging, though you probably don't want to funnel too many resources into a thing you'll only be doing once/fight.

Then again, I have no idea if pixie paladins are good for charge optimization. Maybe they are. Hmm.

>Ah, nuts. Any other really good ones for an edgelord pixie?
It's not a bad PP by any means, I just think it doesn't have an oomph. Sorry not really at home with PPs to help.

>>45028821
I'm pretty sure they're one of the better charger races, if for no other reason than their stupid good mobility

>>45028873
Yeah, the race is good, the "problem" is the class. Not sure how paladins fit into charging. Maybe if you went with an essentials version instead (but then you don't have a CHA based MBA... unless you hybrid warlock).

>>45028978
see>>45028652
Virtuous Strike is a CHA based MBA and Ardent Strike is specifically usable on a charge

>>45029024

Ardent Strike has some really good damage support if you go with Strife.

Strife gives +1/2/3 per enemy within 3 when you make the attack. So you can tear a guy in a formation in half by turning his allies into free damage.

>>45028978
Both essentials subclasses are STR based; you wouldn't need a CHA based MBA

>>45029064
Alas, raven queen has no strife domain. If our emo pixie turns to tiamat worship though we could get things going

>>45029024
Right, but do you have anything else?

Like, a Blackguard gets to add a bunch of damage to all MBAs he makes, and if you were a warlock hybrid, you'd add even more with Hex and shit (while also having a CHA MBA).

Basically, almost every melee class has some MBA option, the question is only how good the rest of your shit is for charging.

>>45029067
A CHA pumping pixie would need that attack, plus blackguard bonus damage and Cavalier aura are both CHA dependant, so it makes you essentially SAD.

>>45029098

I could do. I was going, in part for 'Not as evil as she thinks she is' but then, 4e messed with alignment restrictions pretty heavily.

Does 4e prevent you worshiping a Pantheon?

>>45029103
>Like, a Blackguard gets to add a bunch of damage to all MBAs he makes, and if you were a warlock hybrid, you'd add even more with Hex and shit (while also having a CHA MBA).
Striker mechanics don't blend well on hybrids. If she were both it'd be either or. Also hex is 5e, curse is 4e.

>>45029142
4e removed alignment restrictions.
It does not mechanically represent worshipping a pantheon, though it does not outright reject such a thing. You select one god in the character builder, and you get access to that god's domains. I imagine it would take little effort to to say "well the CB say x but I actually worship x, y and z" You could also just not use the CB and write everything on actual paper like the olden days.

>>45029169
Right, curse.

Also, I did mixed it up, my bad. I remember there being a way to get two boosts somehow. Possibly Executioner hybrid?

>>45029223

I'll see what I can do on that front then. Especially when the character in question is very, very uneducated about how the world actually works and most assumes that 'So goth she shits hot topic gift cards' = evil with the Raven Queen.

>>45029223
>You could also just not use the CB and write everything on actual paper like the olden days.
The CB also has Houserules options built in so you can show/buy restricted feats. The issue with this being if you do this the list expands to EVERY FEAT IN THE GAME, but if you know what to search for it's still pretty usable

>>45027875
My fiancee is playing one, though they aren't really religious. More "I defend the pixie kingdom!" She always stocks up on fey berries to make instant wine and was temporarily queen of said pixie kingdom before passing the crown to a more worthy noble.

Still sickly cute, though.

Is this the /4eg/ for the day?

>>45032135
Well, it's either this or the edition warring one, so I'd say go with this.

>>45032226
Cool.

So who here still has a group and play it? Who likes the new dndinsider site?

>>45029476
Yeah, assassin hybrids still get attack finesse on all MBAs. Blackguard hybrids only get their damage bonus on paladin attacks, though the CB's bugged and gives the bonus to every power despite being a hybrid
>>45032265
I wish. My group switched to 5e and I've been slowly losing the will to keep playing D&D at all.

>>45032982
5e is fun, but my group still plays 4e on Saturdays (5e on sundays).

>>45032982
Same. LMoP was okay, but everything else since had been such a drag.

>>45033233
I envy you so hard.

>>45028577
I agree

>>45033404
Eh, envy me, I don't really care. Both games are about to collapse and it's going to be me picking up the pieces and running a 5e campaign (been eyeing Princes of the Apocalypse, but might do Curse of Strahd if it get's out in time). As for 4e, I'll run that one too, run a world similar to Skies of Arcadia

>>45034743

Damn, sorry to hear that.

>>45035538
It happens. Honestly DM duties always revolve around me and my best friend. I'm almost looking forward to it!

>>45031683

Sounds both amazing and diabetes inducing.

>>45028802

I must admit, the Daily looks like a lot of fun for a Paladin. It locks down a huge area around you.

>>45038802
It is. Going between a tipsy pixie who can't hardly do jack shit but pulls pranks to laying the beat down on monsters in the name of Pixieland is funny.

Looking over the requirements for Light Blade Master...yeah, I can't manage to get that as a Cha-paladin

Is a 19-20 crit required for a 4e Paladin at epic?

>>45041562
Not really. You aren't a striker.

>>45042119

Alright. In that case I can safely go lower on the Dex than I was planning to.

Maybe:

10 Str, 13(+2) Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 14 Wis, 16(+2) Cha

Should I raise Cha and Con as I level or Cha and Wis, do you think? I've got enough dex to not worry about light blade feats.

Do you think that Sneaky Opportunity is any good for a defender? Or without the ability to actually hold a foe in place like a fighter are Opportunity attacks not really much of a focus for me?

>>45042299
Opportunity is definitely a good thing to have for a defender.

What do you want the Wis for? I remember wis secondary features on Pally being kinda bad.

>>45042372

Lay on Hands can be used <Wis> times a day.

I'm leaning Con as it would boost my defenses more and give me more delicious HP.

>>45042518
Eh, I never considered LoH that good.

Then again... if you really want to hot-topic it up, you could go vampire multiclass and shuffle around the healing surges.

>>45042641

Oh? I hadn't considered that. I thought vampire was pretty shit?

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It seems to me that you would be best-off playing a hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock (sorcerer-king pact) with a focus on Charisma, followed by Constitution.

The hybrid paladin (cavalier) loses virtually nothing in terms of defender capabilities; its Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance are virtually untouched. A pixie does not make *especially* good use of the regular paladin's Divine Challenge due to its upkeep requirements, while a pixie can make use of Defender Aura slightly better than most due to being able to hover above a 3x3 group of enemies.

Take Eldritch Strike as your warlock at-will power. Increase its charge damage with the usual: Mindbite Scorn, Killing Curse, Streak of Light, Vanguard Weapon, Horned Helm, Badge of the Berserker.

For encounter attack powers, take Holy Smite as many times as possible, with a single instance of Delban's Deadly Attention on your warlock side.

Be sure to take Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) as well.

The end result is a pixie charger who doles out Eldritch Strike charger each and every turn on top of the extra damage and dazing from Holy Smite, who has plate armor and a heavy shield, who has a 1/encounter leader heal thanks to the hybrid paladin (cavalier)'s Spirit of Sacrifice, and who harasses enemies with a 3x3 Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance to boot. You will most certainly frustrate enemies when you Call of Challenge a large cluster of them, only to charge off towards a different enemy.

It is not quite as effective a pixie charger as a hybrid executioner|warlock, but it is still quite a novel and beautifully effective build.

What level are you starting at? What free feats do you receive? This is an intensely feat-heavy build that only really blossoms given a large handful of free feat slots, and before then, you might just be better off with a conventional non-charger.

>>45042697
In itself, yeah, but as a multiclass/hybrid, it works perfectly well.

>>45042712

Free Expertise and Free Improved Defenses.

Level 1 to start. I must admit, I don't really like Essentials as I like multiple powers. Not the same power over and over again.

>>45042720

That could be interesting. The damage in direct sunlight is a bit painful but still pretty cool.

>>45042838
I think the class description says that heavy/dark clothing is enough to stop that from happening.

Which is kinda funny and justifies wearing longcoat+hat.

>>45042838
Also, pixie vampire/paladin hybrid is a meme for a reason.

Buuuut, Raven Queen kinda dislikes undead so it may not mesh with the original idea.

>>45042896

Well, the Raven Queen also made Reverents.

So she's kinda a hypocritical bitch.

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>>45042784

If you are starting at level 1, then it is best to drop all notions of aiming for a charger build. For that matter, if you dislike repeatedly using the same power ad nauseam, a charger build likely is not for you either.

Nevertheless, I would strongly urge you towards a hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock (sorcerer-king pact) build anyway. The hybrid cavalier does not actually have to take Holy Smite, so feel free to select the ever-useful Valiant Smite. That should actually synergize reasonably well with being a pixie.

When you are not using Valiant Smite, you are using your Eldritch Strike and your warlock powers to dole out striker-level damage.

As a pixie, you would gain more from such a hybrid build than you would gain from being a regular paladin.

>>45042916
Well, you could also just fluff it as being so edgy that you develop vampire powers. Cause that's what evil people do, right?

>>45042712
How have I not come upon Mindbite scorn so far? That's a pretty high boost. I mean, you are now doing rogue bonus damage, right? Does killing curse also increase those dice to d8?

>>45042712
>>45042920

That has the issue that it seems rather Psychic focused, which doesn't really fit the preferred elements of Necrotic/Cold.

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>>45042961

Mindbite Scorn should, in fact, increase those dice to d8s, although you had best ask your DM.

By level 4, a hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock (sorcerer-king pact) with Hybrid Talent, Killing Curse, and Mindbite Scorn has plate armor, a heavy shield, a 1/encounter leader heal from Spirit of Sacrifice, +2d8 curse damage via Eldritch Strike and whatever warlock daily attack power the character has, Valorous Smite and Call of Challenge for mass-marking, and Delban's Deadly Attention for an off-turn attack that can also lay down the 1/turn curse damage.

It is a very effective striker/defender build, and I would heartily recommend it.

>>45042920
>>45043023

According to the GM I can't take Sorcerer-King as we are not in the right setting for it. Just normal Points of Light.

>>45043042
Meh, the only thing Sorcerer-king gives here is the feat availability (you don't receive any other benefits from the pact for a hybrid) so it could be fluffed as anything.

But, I digress. That'd be a pretty nice chunk of damage to miss. And you probably don't want to do charge/MBA optimization anyway because (as you said) it's boring.

So yeah, anything else that caught your attention?

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>>45042991

The only instance of psychic damage in this build is that from Mindbite Scorn. (Delban's Deadly Attention deals necrotic damage.)

Psychic damage is very much within the purview of the Raven Queen's purview of fate. Various fate-themed powers deal psychic damage: Curse of Misfortune (cleric daily 1), Twist of Fate (invoker daily 9), Siphon Fate (artificer encounter 17), Black Arrow of Fate (seeker daily 19), Chant of Bad Fortune (bard encounter 23), Fateful Foresight (invoker encounter 23), Sculpt Fate (bard daily 25), and Bond of Malediction (invoker encounter 27), to name a few.

All three types of the Raven Queen's sorrowsworn in the Monster Manual 1 deal psychic damage *with their basic attacks*, almost as if psychic damage was a favored damage type of the Raven Queen.

>>45043042

Sorcerer-king pact warlocks are playable outside of Dark Sun as of Dragon #390, p6.

>SORCERER-KINGS IN OTHER SETTINGS
>Plundering material from sourcebooks to use in your personal campaigns is not only expected but is encouraged. Elements from Dark Sun work well in other worlds (such as Forgotten realms and Eberron), but you might find the story concepts sometimes challenging to divorce from their associated mechanics. the sorcerer-king pact, for example, expects that beings of godlike power run the show. Such figures probably do not exist in your campaign setting. rather than shoehorn the sorcerer-kings into your campaign setting, these figures might be powerful arcanists from antiquity—beings not necessarily evil, and who offer great power to those who study their lore. they could be archmages who have merged their essence with the cosmos or some other icons of arcane power. Although the organizational details described here might not be relevant, the feats associated with each provide further customization for warlocks who chose this pact and might reflect the particular styles the sorcerer-king equivalents embody.

Call your patron the psychic-loving Raven Queen.

>>45043113

Honestly, the more I ponder it the less interesting 'Striker' seems as this thread has moved me away from Charge (Pixie get so few racial feats I figured I should try for them). I'm sure there will be no shortage of strikers in the group.

According to the thread Soul Reaper seems a lot more Controller than it does Striker. How well can Paladins Control? Not very well I imagine?

>>45043177
Depends on the type of control. Cavaliers actually have a lot of "soft" control with their aura, and hybrids can pick up encounter powers that spread their marks quite effectively.

Warlock's secondary role is also control, so the warlock hybrid could still work out there.

>>45043177

Addendum:

Well, maybe not 'Control' so much as 'Inflict nasty effects'. I don't think they move people about very well.

>>45043224

What would change going Cavalier instead of Paladin? I know nothing about Cavalier beyond 'It's essentials'

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>>45043177

At this point, you are looking at a bog-standard Charisma/Wisdom paladin build, and this guide can help you readily with assembling such a character:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469141-Pillars-of-Faith-%28and-Facestabs%29-The-Paladin-s-Handbook-%28By-Litigation%29

Alternatively, you could consider a hybrid bard|paladin (cavalier) build for a defender/leader that gives up virtually nothing from the defender side. You would even gain a number of story benefits from bardic Signs of Influence.

Soul Reaper is a mediocre paragon path, and a paladin would hardly gain that much from it. Paladins apply "control" in the same way that area defenders do: by mass-marking and forcing enemies to attack them rather than the rest of the party. To that end, the premier paladin paragon path, Hospitaler, could be said to make the paladin all the more controller-like by making the paladin's Divine Challenge quite difficult to ignore.

Additionally, you might want to request from your GM that the necrotic damage you deal with your powers should be treated as radiant damage against undead; it would be illogical for a paladin of the Raven Queen, a deity who loathes the undead, to fare poorly against the undead and their necrotic resistance, no?

>>45043269
>What would change going Cavalier instead of Paladin? I know nothing about Cavalier beyond 'It's essentials'

Instead of challenge, he has an aura that applies the same shit around him. This means he's a lot better at dealing with crowds than the normal paladin.

Smite also dazes if I recall correctly.

>>45042838
Divine vampires get a feat that nullifies sunlight damage, though I believe you're still weakened

>>45042372
There's a bunch of really good pally feats nased on wis. One award you temp hp equal to wis whenever your divine sanction hits you. honored foe I think it is. Another just gives resistance equal to wis for some effect I can't remember.

>>45043406

It actually annoyed me recently finding out how many of the multiclass feats ask for wisdom rather than cha.

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Race: Pixie
Class: Hybrid bard|paladin (cavalier)
Hybrid Defenses: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex
Spirit of Virtue: Spirit of Sacrifice
Background: Whatever you would prefer
Theme: Guardian

Ability Scores: Strength 8, Constitution 14, Dexterity 11+2, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 18+2
Free Feat: Devout Protector Expertise
Free Feat: Improved Defenses
Level 1 Feat: Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency)

At-Will Powers: Virtuous Strike (paladin), your choice of Staggering Note (bard) or Vicious Mockery (bard)
Encounter Attack Power: Valorous Smite (paladin)
Daily Attack Power: Whichever out of Majestic Halo (paladin), Radiant Delirium (paladin), and Stirring Shout (bard) you would prefer

Trained Skills: Whichever four you prefer (you have access to virtually all skills as class skills), +1 bonus to all untrained skill checks from hybrid bard Skill Versatility
Bardic Signs of Influence: Whichever two you prefer from pages 53-54 of Heroes of the Feywild

HP: 27 (13 base + 14 Constitution score)
Healing Surges per Day: 10 (8 base + 2 Constitution modifier)
AC 20 (10 base + 8 plate armor + 2 heavy shield)
Fortitude: 14 (10 base + 2 Constitution modifier + 1 Improved Defenses + 1 hybrid defenses)
Reflex: 15 (10 base + 1 Dexterity modifier + 1 Improved Defenses + 1 hybrid defenses + 2 heavy shield)
Will: 16 (10 base + 5 Charisma modifier + 1 Improved Defenses)

For at-will melee attacks, charges, and opportunity attacks, you have Virtuous Strike. For at-will ranged attacks, you have your choice of Staggering Note or Vicious Mockery. Valorous Smite mass-marks a burst 3 of enemies, and you have a mighty fine selection of daily powers to start off with.

You have a 1/encounter attack intercept and counterattack in the form of Guardian's Counter, and as well, you are virtually a leader with two minor action encounter heals: one from Majestic Word and the other from Spirit of Sacrifice.

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>>45043519

You are a defender in plate armor with a full Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance to boot, and Devout Protector Expertise grants a shield bonus to your *entire* party unconditionally.

On top of all this, you are no slouch outside of combat thanks to bardic Skill Versatility and all the benefits of Signs of Influence.

Wield a rapier, which is a military weapon as of errata and is usable by pixies one-handed, and you should have an ideal weapon of choice.

>>45043519
bard|paladin means split weapon/implement powers unless you are very careful about your selection. gotta be careful with that, especially if the dm doesnt hand out extra symbols or use inherent bonuses

>>45043577
All the better when you get your divine avenger.

I love bard multiclass/hybrid, since I can just pick the feat up that gives+3 to all untrained skills and basically be trained in everything. It always annoyed me how few trained skills hybrids get.

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>>45043577

Player's Handbook 3, page 135:
>Implements: You can wield the implements of both classes, and you can use implement powers from either class (and from those classes' paragon paths) through the implements of either class. For example, a cleric/warlock can use implement powers from either class through holy symbols, rods, and wands.

Devout Protector Expertise, Dragon Magazine #402:
>Devout Protector Expertise
>Prerequisite: Proficiency with holy symbols
>Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to weapon attack rolls you make with any one-handed melee weapon and a +1 feat bonus to implement attack rolls you make with holy symbols. These bonuses increase to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
>In addition, while you use a shield, your allies gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.

A hybrid bard|paladin (cavalier) is absolutely qualified to use a holy symbol as an implement for bard powers, and with the feat bonus to attack rolls from Devout Protector Expertise too. This character also happens to be fully Charisma-based, with no real need for non-Charisma-based riders on powers at all.

For example, at level 3, the character can take Echoing Blade as their encounter attack power from the bard list and then double-tap any static damage bonuses due to the precise wording of that power. At level 7, the character can take Holy Smite from the paladin, fully Charisma-based and reasonably powerful too.

>>45043634

A Divine Avenger is hardly necessary. It has been obsoleted by many other weapons since the Player's Handbook 1.

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>>45043577
>>45043634
>>45043661

Alternatively, if you would *really* rather not use implement powers for whatever reason, you could pick out solely weapon and implement powers from the bard list, although that is likely to leave you bereft of ranged attacks unless you take a ranged bard at-will power.

>>45043661
thats not the point. the point is that you might have a +2 sword of awesome but you arent getting that +2 enhancement bonus on the implement roll

you basically have three solutions: a feat to let you use your weapon as an implement (losing a feat slot), enchanting your main weapon to be usable as an implement (and denying other useful enchantments), or getting a holy symbol in addition to your weapon and having an extra magic item that needs upgrades on the treadmill

not saying its impossible, but it is something you need to be fully aware of going in for these types of builds

>>45043722
addendum: two of those three solutions needs the dm to cooperate with you on making the build work. some dms are more lenient about it than others.

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>>45043722

A bard's songblade from Dragon #390 is a level 1/6/11/16/21/26 (no higher than a plain magic weapon), common rarity magic item with a +1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6 enhancement bonus and +1d6 critical damage per point of enhancement.

>Property: Bards can use this weapon as an implement for bard powers and bard paragon path powers.

Due to the rules for hybrid characters, a hybrid bard|paladin (cavalier) would be able to use this for both bard implement powers and cavalier implement powers.

>>45043126
Mindbite Scorn is also necrotic.

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>>45043807

This, of course, means that you will not avail of the benefits of Devout Protector Expertise for implement attacks. What you *can* take, on the other hand, is this:

>Battle Song Expertise
>Prerequisite: Bard
>Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls you make with any weapon with which you have proficiency and with a wand or another item designated as a bard implement. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
>You also gain a +1 feat bonus to the number of squares that you can pull, push, or slide creatures with your bard attacks and bard paragon path attacks.

If you would rather have Devoted Protector Expertise, however, you will indeed have to either buy a holy symbol or use only weapon powers. It is no different from a regular paladin in that regard.

>>45043820

You are thinking of Hand of Blight. Mindbite Scorn deals purely psychic damage:

>Mindbite Scorn
>Heroic Tier
>Prerequisite: Warlock, Warlock’s Curse class feature, sorcerer-king pact
>Benefit: Your Warlock’s Curse extra damage increases by 1d6, and this additional damage is psychic.

>>45043807
yes, so now either your main weapon needs this enchantment which means you cannot do other interesting things (frostcheese was mentioned earlier as an example). or you have a second weapon that you need to upgrade regularly to keep up on +s, and maybe go through weapon swapping bullshit every time you want to use an implement power

i have made hybrid weapon/implement builds in the past and there are tradeoffs you have to make. if you are going to recommend that kind of build to a newbie, make sure they realize it

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>>45043862

The paladin is a split weapon/implement class to begin with, even before going into hybrids.

You are overblowing the inconvenience of a paladin having to purchase and maintain a holy symbol, especially when holy symbols come with a variety of good properties and powers. (The most noteworthy of these is the Symbol of the Champion's Code, but that one is *not* for cavaliers.)

If it bothers you so much and you are willing to sacrifice all ranged capacities, then keep to weapon attacks.

>>45043944
this is a game where taking an expertise feat for the +1/2/3 is considered mandatory by every charop board on the planet, and you are saying its overblown to be losing anywhere from 1-6 on your attack rolls when using implement powers?

sometimes its worth having a 15% lower chance to hit on a power, such as on a daily where you care more about the effect line than the hit line. your build has implement at-wills out the gate, and a newbie isnt going to know why its to-hit is not keeping up five levels down the line.

if you had just said 'yeah, make sure to talk to the dm about items or take arcane implement proficiency (heavy blades)', that would have been enough and i would have moved on

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>>45044029

I am saying that *monetary upkeep* for the holy symbols is not as difficult as you make it out to be, unless you happen to be starting out at a level whose standard starting wealth makes it a hassle (e.g. level 7).

>if you had just said 'yeah, make sure to talk to the dm about items or take arcane implement proficiency (heavy blades)', that would have been enough and i would have moved on

It would be much more practical to simply purchase basic holy symbols using your wealth, if you are not interested in any holy symbols' properties or powers. They are not particularly expensive.

Either that or use a bardic songblade and Battle Song Expertise, though that does make you lose out on Devout Protector Expertise.

Whatever the case, you overestimate the hassles involved in an implement/weapon build, again unless you are starting off at a level inconvenient for exactly such a thing.

OP here.

What the hades happened to my thread? I am not 100% sure on what people are arguing about. Weapon Implements, I get that much.

>>45044134
some dms ask for wishlists and hand you exactly what you ask for during the campaign. others roll off the tables and you are lucky to even get something usable. buying outright is an option but not all dms are handing out cash to follow the expected wealth by level

i speak from experience of having been in games where the dm was stingy on drops and you couldnt even buy a magic item in town until you basically go on a quest to get to a major city, and then your options were limited to stuff at least five levels below you

so, as has been said earlier, make sure to talk to the dm. if theyre using inherent bonuses, great, problem solved.

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>>45044321

Essentially, someone else is concerned that monetary upkeep on a holy symbol will tax you too much, and that you should check with your DM before investing in implement powers.

I personally think it is not too difficult to maintain both a holy symbol and a weapon (or failing that, drop Devout Protector Expertise in favor of Battle Song Expertise and a bardic songblade).

What do you personally think?

>>45044388
Just to add to this, a CHA paladin will want implement powers anyway, so it's not like this is a tax the bard hybrid introduces.

>>45027875

Raven Quuen isn't evil btw

>>45044388
way to overly simplify the issue. he doesnt even know the difference between weapon and implement powers, how long would it have taken for him to notice when playing?

as for just 'monetary upkeep', that holy symbol could have been another utility item in his hands/arms/head/whatever slot. he gets to explain to the rest of the party why he deserves to have two new weapons every couple levels while they only get one when its time to split the loot. he needs to know that half his build is at risk of becoming significantly less effective because of rules that are not apparent at a glance

this is not a personal attack on you or your build. this is an attempt to raise awareness on an issue that has severe repercussions if left unaddressed over the course of a campaign. also a shining example of why you arent supposed to recommend hybrids to newbies

>>45044558

Oh, I'm fully aware.

This is not a particularly smart or particularly aware of the nature of evil character. Less 'Actually evil' and more 'a bit of a dick'

>>45044561
>he doesnt even know the difference between weapon and implement powers, how long would it have taken for him to notice when playing?

I do know that much. I'm just not 100% sure about the exact nature to the argument. All I can work out is that it's something about Weapon + Implement vs Weapon that IS an Implement.

>>45044638
weapon powers get an enhancement bonus from weapons, implement powers get an enhancement bonus from implements. weapons do not give a bonus to implement powers or vice versa unless you jump through hoops

over the course of the game, this can lead to a significant difference in your accuracy unless you know what to do to prevent it

>>45044561
1.) The paladin is already an implement/weapon class
2.) Bard actually patches this up with songblade.

I feel like you are being confrontational for no good reason here.

>>45044713
1. the paladin has a very small minority of its powers as implement, bard has a majority
2. the songblade fix was not mentioned anywhere in the original build and has a significant opportunity cost

if i am being confrontational it is because you are being dismissive of the issue

>>45044638
Basically, one person is suggesting a hybrid bard/paladin build.

Another person helpfully makes a note that this build has some disadvantages by needing extra items for maximum efficiency.

What follows is a lively and rousing debate on the specific pros and cons of the weapon/implement system in 4E though sadly hard numbers have not been thrown about.

>>45044787
But the paladin is already a weapon/implement class, you retard.

>>45044792
Chill bro. No need for namecalling. Sounds like he's a thirdparty guy.

>>45044561
>that holy symbol could have been another utility item in his hands/arms/head/whatever slot
Holy symbols have their own specific slot

>>45045158
He means the cost in gold/trasure parcel slot. You are spending it on a holy symbol so you don't have something else instead.

Considering holy symbols have their own effects, I don't think that's that big of a deal, but w/e.

>>45044321
Think of it as a lesson in why every DM should enable inherent bonuses

What book is Hybrids for the Essentials classes? If I'm going to look over Cavalier, I'll need to work out what I get/lose from Hybrid.

>>45045212
Pretty sure essentials hybrids were in dragon mag.

Just use the builder mang.

>>45045212
Most are in phb3. The others are scattered about in places I don't recall. I think cavalier was in a dragon magazine.

Mind you, the issue with the Cavalier is that it's a rather shit primary defender. It doesn't really have any way to properly punish unlike normal paladins who can add Weakened and Slowed and such to their mark. The Cavalier is stuck doing rather mediocre damage.

>>45045405
Plus since cavalier is essentials, it didn't get as much support as the OG Paladin. For example, Paladin gets Champion of order PP that makes their mark punishment fighter tier (and can hybrid fighter to make it really ridiculous if they want to).

>>45045405
Cavaliers are area defenders. They're not that bad.

>>45045405
>>45045436
>implying OP's even going to hit paragon tier

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>>45044561
>>45044759

My final point towards you is that you are overblowing the issue regarding monetary upkeep of holy symbols, which is something a Charisma-based paladin will likely have to do *anyway*. Our hybrid bard|paladin (cavalier) here has the luxury of simply using a cheap songblade.

>>45045212

Dragon Magazine #402 contains the rules for the hybrid cavalier. I will gladly post them for you.

Hybrid Paladin (Cavalier)

CLASS TRAITS

Role: Defender.
Power Source: Divine.
Key Abilities: Strength, Charisma

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail, scale, plate; heavy shields, light shields.
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged.
Implement: Holy symbols
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will.

Hit Points at 1st Level: 7.5+ Constitution Score.
Hit Points per Level Gained: 3
Healing Surges per Day: 5

Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Religion (Int).

Class features: Defender Aura, Holy Smite (Hybrid), Righteous Radiance, Spirit of Virtue
Hybrid Talent Options: Paladin Armor Proficiency or Righteous Shield (Hybrid).

HYBRID PALADIN (CAVALIER) CLASS FEATURES

DEFENDER AURA
You gain the defender aura power.

HOLY SMITE (HYBRID)
You can select the holy smite power whenever you have the opportunity to gain a class encounter attack power. If you have holy smite, you can choose to replace it with another encounter attack power when you have the option to swap such powers. If you already have holy smite, you gain an additional use of the power if you select it again.

RIGHTEOUS RADIANCE
You gain the righteous radiance power.

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>>45046078

SPIRIT OF VIRTUE
You gain a benefit associated with your virtue.

Spirit of Sacrifice
You gain an additional healing surge. In addition, you can use your second wind as a minor action to heal an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you. If you do so, you gain no benefit from using your second wind, but the ally regains hit points equal to his or her healing surge value.

Spirit of Valor
You gain a +4 bonus to initiative checks, and your healing surge value increases by 2.

Hybrid talent Options
If you take the Hybrid Talent feat, you can select one of the following options.

PALADIN ARMOR PROFICIENCY
You gain proficiency with leather armor, hide armor, chainmail, scale armor, plate armor, light shields, and heavy shields.

RIGHTEOUS SHIELD (HYBRID)
You gain the righteous shield power. In addition, at 7th level or higher, you gain the benefit of the Improved Righteous Shield class feature associated with your virtue.

>>45045405
>>45045436

A hybrid paladin (cavalier) cannot quite avail of the ever-useful Hospitaler paragon path, but on the other hand, such a character can settle for the merely slightly less spectacular Questing Knight, whose level 11 encounter power can turn the tide of a battle as much as Valorous Smite can.

A hybrid paladin (cavalier) could also enter the Heartwarder paragon path if they worship Sune (or an equivalent deity) and they use an implement, but I suppose this particular character does not worship such a god.

>>45045192
The problem with inherent bonuses is that using them buffs two-weapon rangers

Which is already the strongest striker option in the game

It also nerfs sorcerers rather significantly, but sorcerers are already pretty good, and the nerf doesn't hit them hard enough to make them unusable

>>45043023
Crimson Fire would then increase it from 2d6 to 2d10. I mean, sure, your action economy suffers, but 2d10 bonus damage in Heroic is no laughing matter.

Then you can take Champion of Order and use Eldritch Strike to punish marks for more off-turn curse damage. And Twofold pact for Fey, for a ranged warlock at-will, and teleport pact boon to ease the first turn's problems.

I can actually see this work (tho not with a cavalier hybrid, obviously has to be normal Pally).

>>45047180
Or you could elemental pact and since mindbite scorn always deals psychic damage, it would always get replaced with your current elemental affinity, for another 10 guaranteed bonus damage, because lolvulnerability.

>>45047259
>Elemental Pact
>Mindbite Scorn requires SK Pact

>>45047385
Twofold pact mate.

>>45046110
>>45046078

Ok. Having talked it over with my GM, he'd prefer if we don't use the Hybrid rules as he doesn't know them very well and isn't very comfortable with them.

Normal paladin should still be plenty serviceable, right?

>>45048084
Absolutely. Use this guide if you want, though it sounds like it'll be a relatively low-medium optimization game.

>http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469141-Pillars-of-Faith-%28and-Facestabs%29-The-Paladin-s-Handbook-%28By-Litigation%29

Why are there four defender classes that are given the "option" of taking a primary and secondary stat that both apply to the same defense?

No other roll has this much doubling up on stats, and defenders need varied stats more than anybody

>>45048351
Good question. It's especially annoying with STR/CON, because that also means you'll have a grand total of two skills that get your "main stat" bonus.

>>45048414
athletics and endurance are two very commonly used skills in most campaigns though

It sucks more for fighters and knights, STR/CON sucks normally, but their class defense bonus is also just a +2 to fortitude, leaving their will and reflex utterly pathetic

>>45048539
Eh, at least fighters have a lot of support for other stats (even core had some DEX and WIS support IIRC), and Knights can just replace their MBA stat with relatively little pain (no, I don't care that kike mearls nerfed melee training, in my heart it'll be forever full damage).

>>45048645
The nerf to melee training didn't change too much for knights, you just have to either go for an intelligence-build or be a half-elf, which were top options already thanks to numerous other bonuses you can get on powers like sonnlinor's hammer and eldritch strike as well as the natural support eladrin knights have

>>45048645
Mearls must be ended, I think we all agree on that one.

>>45048808
Eh, it's still bad to be shoehorned into those options, when you could just take a single feat and do whatever.

>>45048896
I liked what he wrote in primal power

>>45050858
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that way despite him working on it,

>>45048304

Thanks.

After some pondering I decided to go with Paladin/Vampire(Multiclass). Regen when bloodied = Charisma gives me a lot more endurance in fights and the ability to drain healing surges to give to other people with Lay on Hands sounds like silly reshuffling.

>>45052883
As a small bonus, Ki focus also nixes the whole implement/weapon divide.

>>45052883
You, uh, made sure to figure out how exactly the surge economy works? When you multiclass Vampire your maximum surge count immediately drops to 2, and you don't start out with any of the normal surge stealing powers that Vampire has, so on top of the multiclass feat you need to spend more feats to get surge stealing.

There are some interesting builds you can make that use Vampire, but they're high-optimization builds that can cleverly sidestep the issues. I wouldn't recommend it for a newer player.

>>45053883
Im a faggot that enjoys minmaxing for fun, what would i be looking for in those vampire multiclass builds? I never considered doing anything with vampires because they seem so shit.

>>45054320
Well, they are pretty shit, so you're not wrong there. The main things to note is that they have a bunch of feats for stealing surges based on power source, so a mixed source hybrid like Barbarian|Cleric can double-dip and steal more surges. In addition, once you have reliable surge regeneration, you never actually need to take an extended rest if you're willing to accept losing out on your dailies... and grab all the items and feats that give you ever-increasing buffs for every milestone you reach.

There's probably a couple more things but it's been a while since I worked on a Vampire and I don't remember everything offhand.

>>45054320
>>45053883
For starters, you should take divine vampire for paladin/vampire. It patches most of your holes up, and gives you the surge stealing. You could also consider hybridizing instead of multiclass, more benefits that way and less of a drop in surges IIRC (but your dm said no hybrid so that's out).

>>45054768
I'm the guy asking about the optimising, Im not OP.

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>>45048304
>>45052883

The benefits of a vampire multiclass are significantly outweighed by the downsides; it takes a careful build to make such a thing work, and I am afraid a low-level pixie paladin is not one of them.

I would suggest aiming for a fairly basic Charisma/Wisdom paladin build, perhaps starting off with Ardent Vow in place of Lay on Hands, since Ardent Vow is actually quite devastating at the lowest of levels. If you wish to take a multiclass feat, I would strongly recommend Resourceful Leader from Martial Power 2, which should net you an extra trained skill from the warlord's class skill list, along with a fairly potent action point benefit for the party.

>>45054320
Revenants make great vampires as you can stay conscsious below 0hp if you for some reason can't steal surges from something. Human past soul gives you access to all the great save feats of human, making it more likely you'll pass revenant's death save rolls. I made one such revenant as a pally|vamp hybrid that made for a defender that can keep on chugging even after everyone else is out of surges. Some pally powers let you transfer your stolen surges to others too. Vamps also have the at-wills vampiric slam (MBA with vampire damage bonus) and taste of life (gives cha mod temp hp on hit).

>>45055000
>Charisma/Wisdom
Ew

>>45027875
Well, on the 4e the paladin is a fucking wall. he can take all the punishment. You gonna make one hardcore fairy.

>>45055050
Warden is the wall defender of 4e. Highest hp and can turn into an actual wall.
Man I miss wardens.

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>>45055040

Charisma/Wisdom paladins have simply *better* encounter and daily attack powers all throughout level 1 to level 7, and they are not feat-taxed into taking Mighty Challenge. At level 11+, they make better use of the mandatory Honored Foe paragon feat by being able to make better use of mass sanctions from Valorous Smite and Call of Challenge.

Strength/Wisdom paladins only really start to pull ahead in the later levels (perhaps level 14+ or so), when their encounter and daily attack powers rise to be on the same level as those of the Charisma paladin, when the initial feat tax does not sting as much, and when the difference in Fortitude magnifies due to ability score increases.

It helps to be a half-orc as a Strength/Wisdom paladin for the Blessed Strength heroic feat, of course.

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>>45055085

>>45055026
Standard Revenant cheese involves the Belts of Sonnlinor Righteousness, which needs to you to stay below zero to activate. Vampire regeneration is disabled when you go below zero.

It's a functional build, but I feel that it would work better using a different class than Vampire.

>>45055173
>form of the crushing mountain.jpg

>>45055256
The goal is to buff vampire, not optimize revenant. Revenant would give a vamp|pally extra durability, which is great if it wants to play the defender role. You don't need to go full revenant cheese with that, it's just nice to have a safety net. It's also cool as shit to play the blood drinking knight in shining armor who cannot die.

>>45053883

I was going to go with Divine Vampire to steal 1/encounter, yeah.

That and between Con 14 and Vampire, I'll STILL have 10 Healing Surges.

>>45055000

Resourceful Leader doesn't make any real fluff sense at all. This character is going to be not clever at all.

>>45057138
>Resourceful Leader doesn't make any real fluff sense at all. This character is going to be not clever at all.

Not clever, just making the best of what you got. And then you are a foot tall and want to dress like a hot topic sale, you gotta get... resourceful.

>>45057179

It does mean they aren't a vampire anymore, though, which seemed to be the point.

>>45057138
>That and between Con 14 and Vampire, I'll STILL have 10 Healing Surges.
That's not how it works. You go Vampire and your max surges is reduced to two. Not by two, it becomes two. You have two surges, period.

>>45057356

...well, shit.

I guess that scraps that idea. I'll have to find something else edgy to multiclass into for the character. Maybe I'll go back to Rogue or see what I can do with Warlock.

>>45057562
Multiclass bard for emo poetry.

Multiclass assassin for implement, shroud, and some other cool options I'm probably forgetting

Working on a tier list for races

S tier:
>Revenant
>Human

A tier:
>Dragonborn
>Tiefling
>Elf
>Half-elf

B-C-D tier:
>Everything else

E tier:
>Githyanki
>Duergar
>Tinker Gnome
>Shade

F tier:
>Orc
>Bullywug

Just need to sort out the middle bit

>>45057562
A warlock/rogue hybrid that is multiclassed into assassin, or an assssin/rogue hybrid multiclassed into warlock can get perma-stealth by level 6 (4 if you're human)

>>45059518

Oh, I meant 'As at multiclass for paladin'.

>>45059468

It really depends a lot on what you are building. Objective tiers are very hard.

>>45061308
Flexibility is a very important thing for races.

It's why humans are S-tier, they are good at being everything except for sorcerers

>>45061410

Yes but they make worse sorcerers of many types than other races.

A Tiefling is a much better Fire Elementalist than a Human. So you can't say the human is objectively better as a race.

>>45061523
You misinterpreted me, I said humans are great at everything except sorcerers, humans are subpar sorcerers, but top of the line at everything else.
Also, humans are objectively better than tieflings, because while they aren't as good at being sorcerers, warlocks, psions, enchantment wizards, bards or chaladins as tieflings are, they're almost as good as tieflings at most of those things, and far, far better than tieflings at pretty much everything else.

The thing about this sort of tier is that higher tier races aren't always going to be the better choice than a lower tier race, but the majority of the time, they will be

>>45061871

It's a pretty terrible tier list in that case and doesn't really DO much if in the end the result is 'It depends what you are making'. Tier lists are really more a by-class thing than a general thing.

>>45061871

Also worse at being pyromancer wizards.

>>45061989
But EVERYTHING "depends on what you're making" even class tiers

>>45061871
Every class has a few races that are great for it. goliath and dwarves are excellent earthstrength wardens, shifters are great wildbloods and druids, half orcs are excellent straladims and stonefist monks, etc. Humans are great at everything just by being able to put their stats anywhere, but rarely as good as one of the specialized races. Their racials only serve them when the class is really helped by having more at wills or really good saves. Humans also vlcan't compete as dual stat hybrids due to the one stat bonus thing.

>>45061410
>Flexibility is a very important thing for races.

But you're probably going to choose your class first.

>>45063743
Do earthstrength wardens get enough stuff to make being a STR/CON class worth it?

Because from what I've seen, they just look shit

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>>45063883

The only, and I do mean *only*, two significant benefits that Strength/Constitution wardens have going for them are:

1. The Crippling Crush heroic feat, which admittedly requires you to spam certain slowing or immobilizing powers in order to make the most of it.

2. The opportunity to be a dwarf for +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, Dwarven Weapon Training, and a minor action second wind, all of which are beautifully effective for an Earthstrength or Stormheart warden.

Aside from those two factors, both Strength/Constitution warden builds make woefully frail defenders due to their poor Reflex and Will. It is not as though they will be able to contribute particularly well outside of combat either, what with having only Athletics and Endurance particularly high (and with armor check penalties on top as an added insult).

By level 11, the Wildblood warden is far and away the most effective of the warden builds as far as actually taking hits and defending allies is concerned, due to reasonably high AC, Fortitude, and Will and the Wildblood Speed paragon feat.

>>45064031

Out of interest: How well does a Shifter Wildblood Warden work out? I've been pondering one for a while (Maybe with a fullblade just for fun) and they look insanely tanky.

>>45064031
Are there ANY STR/CON class options that don't suck?

>>45059468
dwarf should be a tier, minor action second wind with forced movement resistance, prone resistance, and good feat/item support is pretty baller

>>45028577
Pixies are actually the 2nd most OP race for Paladins. Because of their tiny size, they can stay in the same square as enemies AND allies, giving them huge benefits as far as stickiness is concerned as a defender.

>>45042712
ilu touhouanon. I'll never forget what you did during 4e's launch cycle.

>>45064230
What's the most OP paladin race then?

Half orc?

>>45064230

Now if only they had the right stats for a MBA defender like Fighter or Warden.

>>45064262
Tiefling. Tiefling feat support for abusing CHA is amazing, and the synergy available for frostcheese can turn the already sub-striker damage of a paladin into something rivaling the strikers in your party, while sacrificing none of the inherent immortality of the paladin.

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>>45064072

Longtooth shifter was formerly *the* race for wildblood wardens due to their perfect Strength/Wisdom ability scores and the benefits of Longtooth Shifting, but they have since been outclassed by Strength/Wisdom goliaths, who have better passive racial benefits and an arguably better-scaling racial encounter power.

Longtooth shifters are still ideal for Wildblood wardens, but not *as* perfect as goliaths.

Additionally, if you are a defender, you do *not* want to be wielding any two-handed weapon, unless: (A) you are level 11+ and you have Polearm Gamble, (B) you are a barbarian-berserker, or (C) you have Battle Cleric's Lore.

A defender is shooting themselves in the metaphorical foot by sacrificing the defense increase from keeping a hand free; +2 AC and +2 Reflex is *not* a small deal for a defender, and the benefits of a two-handed weapon (marginal extra damage) are by no means a good tradeoff.

>>45064123

The barbarian, fighter, runepriest, and warden are the only classes of 4e that have Strength/Constitution builds. Those of the barbarian and the runepriest are vaguely acceptable if only because they are not defenders, but even then, they have awfully low non-AC defenses short of raising Dexterity on the barbarian build.

>>45064230

This does not actually help a regular paladin all that much due to the engagement prerequisites for Divine Challenge. If anything, it synergizes more aptly with the paladin (cavalier)'s Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance, but that runs into the issue of the cavalier being primarily Strength-based.

Out of the defender classes of 4e, the pixie synergizes most with the Aegis of Shielding swordmage due to the pixie's unmatched ability to hop across the battlefield, which is what any swordmage wants to be doing to separate themselves from the enemy.

>>45064292

Battle Cleric's Lore?

I must admit, a honking great two handed sword really feels right for a Warden with the fluff.

>>45064312
Wardens are really good at abusing reach, thanks to their mark punishment range being limited by weapon reach, rather than limited to a set number of squares. If you're using a 2 handed weapon as a warden, use a greatspear or a glaive

>>45064292
What about Dex/Int or Wis/Cha?

Wizards, Paladins, Ardents, Bards, Clerics and rogues?

>>45064371

Greatspear could also work well. The +2 accuracy on the Glaive makes me a bit hesitant, I'll admit.

>>45064407
Glaive is only there because heavy blade feats are really nice

Better for fighters than wardens though

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>>45064312

Battle Cleric's Lore is an alternate cleric class feature from Dragon Magazine #400.

>Battle Cleric’s Lore
>Alternative Class Feature
>Your study of warfare and divine magic has granted you the gods’ blessings in battle. You can choose this class feature in place of Healer’s Lore.
>Benefit: You gain a +2 shield bonus to AC, and you have proficiency with scale armor. In addition, whenever you use a cleric healing power to allow a target to spend a healing surge, that target gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Yes, this is 100% superior to Healer's Lore.

You can arguably acquire this as a hybrid cleric without even spending a Hybrid Talent, and you can arguably acquire this simply by taking the Healer's Lore cleric multiclass feat, although you should check with your GM for the legality of such a thing.

If you wish to play a pure defender with a fullblade, look into a genasi barbarian (berserker) Unarmored Agility + Empty Mind build with a Shielding Fullblade.

>>45064371

This is not a particularly good idea when Warden's Grasp already covers a warden's mark punishment out to close burst 5, and Thorn Strike is their go-to melee 2 at-will power. The loss of defense *hurts* a warden considerably, and spending a feat on Hafted Defense for half the benefits of a heavy shield is a band-aid at best.

>>45064433
You yourself mentioned the real excuse for using a greatspear above though

Polearm gamble

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>>45064397

Correct. Out of these, the *only* good Dexterity/Intelligence or Wisdom/Charisma build that is not immediately outclassed by its peers within the same class is the Charisma/Wisdom paladin, whose sole claim to viability over other types of paladins is better powers at levels 1-7, better use of divine sanctions, more opportunities to trigger Honored Foe at the paragon tier, and the Hospitaler paragon path.

Every other Dexterity/Intelligence or Wisdom/Charisma build suffers from very poor defenses. This is especially ironic in the case of the Wisdom/Charisma ardent and bard, both of which are themed around precognition and predicting enemy attacks, yet have low initiative and simply the worst defenses in 4e around (chain armor, low AC, low Fortitude, low Reflex, only Will high).

>>45064457

This is correct. It is arguably not as useful for a warden as it is for a fighter, however, particularly when a warden *still needs to be adjacent* to mark enemies.

It is not worth it to bother with a polearm build at the heroic tier as a defender.

>>45064371
>>45064407

Would it be better if the Greatspear was Heavy Blade/Polearm?

As the GM has said that they are willing to create superior weapons if there is something we really want and a swap from 'Spear' to 'Polearm' for some form of better Blade On A Stick would be easy enough (They suggested a Naginata or Glaive-Guisarme)

>>45064495
Looking for homebrew advice here

How would you change the way defenses work to make Str/Con, Dex/Int and Wis/Cha classes less shit?

>>45064501
That would be insanely good, better than the greatspear easily, heavy blades have much better feat support and magic items than spears do

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>>45064501

If you seem to be intent on playing a lightly-armored primal defender with a two-handed weapon, I do not see why you are not just playing a barbarian (berserker).

Such a character can have AC *21* at level 1 with cloth armor and a two-handed weapon.

>>45064535

All characters can add the lower of their Strength and Constitution modifiers to their Will in place of their Wisdom or Charisma modifier, save for dwarf wardens and Crippling Crushers.

All characters can add the lower of their Dexterity and Intelligence modifiers to their Will in place of their Wisdom or Charisma modifier.

All characters can add the lower of their Wisdom and Charisma modifiers to their Fortitude in place of their Strength or Constitution modifier, save for Charisma paladins.

>>45064571

Isn't Berserker essentials? He may not want to play essentials.

>>45064648
Berserker works nothing like other Essentials characters. It's honestly a fix for Barbarian.

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>>45064648

The barbarian (berserker) is a standard AEDU class.

>>45064657
Why do O-barbarians need fixing?

>>45064661
>>45064571

How would that work out? Looking over Beserker it seems like it doesn't stay a Defender for very long before it turns into a striker as the moment you use a Primal power, you go crazy.

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>>45064696

The trick is to take only martial powers. They are mediocre, quite frankly, but the barbarian (berserker) makes up for it with an *extremely* capable passive chassis.

That base AC 21 at level 1 is going to rise even higher given a Shielding Blade, and the berserker's low Will is rendered a non-issue by the voidsoul genasi's Empty Mind feat (and, optionally, the Manifest Resistance feat).

>>45064741

>the berserker's low Will is rendered a non-issue by the voidsoul genasi's Empty Mind feat (and, optionally, the Manifest Resistance feat).

I thought I was making a Shifter, not a Genasi. This is barely ending up like where I started with, going from Shifter Warden to Gensai Barbarian.

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>>45064775

It would help if you could tell us what your overall concept is, and why a two-handed weapon is non-negotiable for that concept.

>>45064791

By this point my concept is more or less 'A Yamabushi' (At least, after the GM mentioned a Naginata as an option for a superior weapon). A warrior-monk with a glaive/naginata and a deep connection to nature. Shifter seemed like it would play well into the natural connection and make me a lot harder to kill.

>>45064433
Warden's grasp doesn't do damage though

>>45064696
You take an even amount of martial and primal classes. When you don't have to be the defender anymore, you deep dick for the last half of the encounter. But a pure martial Berserker is still really, really good.

>>45064685
Light armor means they have to split between dex and their regular secondary to keep their AC up. They get a built in extra boost but not enough. Whirling slayers' secondary is dex so they avoid this issue.

>>45064833
I'd recommend a fighter multiclassed into warden for that, with the sohei theme, if your DM is permitting themes

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>>45064833

That sounds like it could fit an avenger, cleric, or runepriest with high Wisdom, a nature deity, and training in Nature.

Why a divine class, you say? That is because the Sohei theme (quite good for most strikers given that minor action attack, really) is a divine theme, and its description includes:
>A sohei, sometimes called a yamabushi (“mountain warrior”) due to the usual site of farflung monasteries and shrines, is a monastic soldier trained as a temple guardian. Rather than focusing on intense religious instruction, a sohei receives training in meditation, body control, and martial techniques. Although devoted clergy of the same religion or sect might practice pacifism, a sohei warrior-monk does not.

If you choose cleric or runepriest, the greatspear's stock statistics should do. If you choose avenger, see if you can negotiate for the greatspear's +3 proficiency bonus to be dropped to +2 in exchange for a d12 damage die.

>>45064932
Rageblood barbarians can basically take dex as their secondary, they don't particularly lose much by not focusing on constitution, and what they do lose is more than made up for in the feats and extra defenses focusing on dex gives them.

Sucks to be a thaneborn though, I don't know why they can't just get their secondary stat to AC like wardens can

>>45064942

The defender part is mostly 'The group lacks a defender right now'.

>>45063883
Earthstrength get a con boost to AC with their second wind, and I recall feats that let them extend that to all defenses and extend the effects to extra turns. Some compensation for the overlapping defense stats

>>45064963
Tiefling Paladin with Sohei theme, Evil Eye, Clutch of Stygia, etc. It doesn't have to have horns and shit in game, it can just be some human dude. But you'll be a Defender with Striker-level damage, as well as on point for your concept. Paladin's natural defenses are so good that it might not even hurt in real play for you to use a spear or whatever you're married to.

Keep in mind that unlike in some other editions of D&D, 4e's fluff and 4e's crunch are very divorced. This is intentional design. You don't have to build the numbers to reflect your theming, and vice versa. Let go of that idea and you'll have a lot more fun with this.

Refluff, refluff, refluff. When in doubt, refluff!

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>>45064963

The effectiveness of a polearm defender is almost solely reliant on your level, which would be...?

>>45064970

>Earthstrength get a con boost to AC with their second wind, and I recall feats that let them extend that to all defenses and extend the effects to extra turns.

Wildblood wardens achieve the same trick with even more effectiveness with their own second wind benefits stacked on top of cheap Parry Gauntlets and the default +2 bonus to all defenses from using a second wind.

>>45065072

Level 5. Veterans but not household names was how the GM described it.

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>>45065089

Unfortunately, that is a tad too early for the build described in >>45065050

On the other hand, that is just about the right level to get started with a mid-level fight build that can knock enemies prone with *every* attack, thanks to a Lightning Weapon +1 (level 5 weapon), Rushing Cleats (level 7 feet slot; you will have to wait for a bit), the Mark of Storm feat, and the Polearm Momentum feat.

Bringing all of those together results in a fighter who slides enemies 2 squares and knocks them prone with *every* attack, and this does synergize with the Sohei theme a fair bit.

The more I learn about 4e, the weirder the system seems

The one class that wants heavy blade opportunity more than any other (Battlemind) has pretty much the hardest time of any defender class reaching the prerequisites.

Pixies have perfect stats and racial features for being spellcasters, but their feats and racial powers want them to be skirmishers. Meanwhile hamadryads are a wis/int/cha race, great for being a leader or controller, but their racial features and powers all want them to be defenders

These oddities are everywhere

>>45065165
dragonmark feats aren't available in most campaigns

With good reason, they have heavy RP connotations relating to a specific setting, and are otherwise obscenely powerful feats, often giving two feats worth of stuff in one feat

>>45065176
Eh, I think it gives races versatility. Gets some umexpected race/class combos going

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>>45065176

>Pixies have perfect stats and racial features for being spellcasters, but their feats and racial powers want them to be skirmishers.
Pixies are a +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity or Intelligence race. Last I checked, Desert Wind monks, Artful Dodger rogues, and Fey/Gloom/Star Pact warlocks (hexblade) were all melee characters that lost virtually nothing from wielding the weapons a pixie is restricted to.

>hamadryads are a wis/int/cha race, great for being a leader or controller, but their racial features and powers all want them to be defenders
Hamadryad Charisma/Wisdom paladins are excellent.

>>45065189

Then we should wait to see if this person is allowed to take Mark of Storm. Also, this person should try to negotiate for a level 6 start if possible, which will make such a build more viable.

Do you guys think it's ok to let races pick any two of their three racial stat bonuses?

I'm a bit torn on the issue

>>45065317

I think it's fine. It gives more options and helps quite a few races that NEARLY work for some classes but not quite.

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>>45065317

Half-elf instantaneously becomes the single best Charisma/Wisdom paladin race without contest due to the feat support for exactly such a thing.

Dwarf becomes the single greatest warden race because of minor action second winds, and, to a lesser extent, the single best Strength/Wisdom fighter race due to the Devoted Challenge heroic feat. For that matter, every Strength/Wisdom build now wants to be either a dwarf (or a mul) solely for Dwarven Weapon Training, or an elf for the Elven Accuracy racial encounter power.

Constitution/Intelligence-based tieflings dominate in the field of swordmages, artificers, wizards, and Constitution warlocks.

I would personally allow any race to select the racial ability score bonuses they would prefer, but deny all racial feats to those who customize their scores in such a way.

>>45065380
What do you mean by that?

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>>45065506

This means that you could play, say, a bozak draconian with +2 Strength and +2 Wisdom (already a monstrously strong combination), but you will be unable to take racial feats such as Draconian Wings and Dragonborn Arrogance.

>>45065534
Oh... now that's an interesting idea

Although if you let humans do that they are stupidly OP, human feats aren't the best, but their racial features are incredible.

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>>45065573

Under this setup, humans should receive their choice of +2 to any two attributes while still being eligible for all human racial feats, but they should be stripped of their +1 bonus to all non-AC defenses.

>>45065072
If I understand the trick properly, earthstrength wardens could still use their own class effect along with the parry gauntlets for even higher defenses. Still not as good as wildblood's effects, but it's something earthstrength can do.

>>45065662
Why touhou, touhoufag? Why not a trip like the average namefag? Does touhou have a relevant association I'm unaware of, or do you just really like touhou?

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>>45066265

Earthstrength wardens raise only their AC, short of a feat. Wildblood wardens effectively raise all defenses of the rest of the party, out of the box, and their own as well thanks to the basic benefits of a second wind.

Wildblood wardens receive a better deal here with Parry Gauntlets, because the enemy is presented with an even more unfavorable (for the enemy) lose-lose situation than the one with the Earthstrength warden.

>>45066399
What's the best PP for a wildblood warden (with a shield, including racial PPs)?

>>45066585
I recall Son of Mercy being a big deal for wildbloods

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>>45066585
>>45066713

I would probably give it that award to the bland-as-gruel Kensei (via a fighter multiclass) over the Son of Mercy. The Son of Mercy, while certainly very good against a single target, does not mesh well with the level 11+ Wildblood warden's playstyle of pinballing around the battlefield, marking as many enemies as possible, and punishing mark violations with Wildblood Speed and Warden's Fury.

The Kensei not only increases a Wildblood warden's raw damage output during their own turn, but strengthens mark punishment as well.

>>45066788
doesn't wildblood speed trigger after warden's fury?

> tfw DMing for Touhoufag

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>>45066855

I have researched this matter for you, and there are two conflicting conclusions drawn by different stackexchange.com users citing the same passages in the Rules Compendium:
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8652/can-a-wildblood-warden-use-wildblood-speed-before-wardens-fury

Ask your DM. If your DM rules that Wildblood Speed cannot be used before Warden's Fury, then that causes the Wildblood warden to take a severe hit to its defender capabilities by the paragon tier, enough to be completely outclassed by a Strength/Wisdom fighter with Marked Scourge.

>>45066917

Are you now?

>>45066855
Its the same trigger, but it's unclear if the shift happens before or after the triggering attack completes. I don't know if an official ruling was given, but it's insanely OP if it lets you get off a warden's fury punishment too.

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>>45067104

>it's insanely OP if it lets you get off a warden's fury punishment too

As far as raw effectiveness is concerned, it is hardly worse than a level 1 fighter automatically negating a mark-violating melee attack via Shield Push.

>>45067092
But those two answers both agree that warden's fury comes first

>>45067092
Don't worry Touhoufag. Joke aside, it's actually great to have such an invested player. I'll return soon to handle your loli valkyrie.

>>45067092
It seems strange for a single feat to so drastically enhance a single subclass's competence. I would lean towards wildblood speed triggering after the attack, and the dms I've had likewise would.

>>45067130
>and these things can be done in any order

>>45067145
Not the only example of that

Take mighty challenge for example, it is the cornerstone of the strength-based paladin, without it, strength-based paladins have no mark punishment

>>45067164
Straladins were outright broken though. That feat raises them to the competence of their sister subclasses. Wildblood speed pushes wildblood far above all other wardens.

>>45067162
That was in regards to immediate reactions, not immediate interrupts

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>>45067145

That is a reasonable ruling in terms of pure RAW interpretation, although do note that it causes Strength/Wisdom Wildblood wardens to lag severely behind Strength/Wisdom fighters in the field of enforcing their marks by the paragon tier.

Consider that your typical goliath Strength/Wisdom fighter is, at level 11, sporting Marked Scourge for a gargantuan boost in damage output, Hindering Shield for slowing enemies on a constant basis, and default access to top-notch paragon paths like Kensei, Pit Fighter, and Son of Mercy (which is better for a fighter than a warden).

>>45067186

The better solution is to make it available to all wardens and to have it key off Strength.

>>45067131

I will be sleeping within an hour. I have no idea what is going on with that cleric|paladin's player, and the misconceptions and fallacies in their claims regarding how defenders work in 4e is mind-boggling.

>>45067217
Fighters are the toppest of tiers in regards to defenders though

Hell, if you build them for it, they make pretty damn good pure strikers, fighters have a lot of shit going for them

Also, what has this mystery person been saying in regards to defenders?

>>45067216
>It says that interruptions, free actions, etc can happen in any order. It also said that at the end of a turn when you are doing saving throws and status effects stop, that they also can be done in any order.

>>45067239
I think mechanically it still means for wildblood speed to come second, not first. By RAI at least

I would let it come first, and I'd let all wardens take it, because wardens are pretty poor defenders without the extra mobility and mark punishment it provides.

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>>45067237

This person is boasting about how they have managed to discover an "awesome" hybrid build in the form of a cleric|paladin... *without* Battle Cleric's Lore. Supposedly, this is a good build because they can load up their character with as many healing abilities as possible (never mind that they could just be using Lay on Hands as a regular paladin), and they can use Priest's Shield, which they tout to be a spectacular at-will power because it "provides half of a mark."

This player also somehow believes that marking is weak in 4e, that a paladin should not bother upgrading their survivability, and that a Strength paladin is best off focusing on offense for some bizarre reason and putting off Mighty Challenge for later.

Allegedly, this is strictly superior to a regular paladin.

I personally do not see why they are not just playing a cleric|ranger with Battle Cleric's Lore if they wish to be a high-defense striker with the ability to heal.

>>45067310
Wow...

And I thought I was an idiot for making a half orc paladin with a fullblade and 20 strength.

>>45067355
Y-you mean that's a bad build?

>>45067367
It does serious damage, but it suffers in terms of defenses. So it only really works if your DM makes a habit of ignoring marks.

My DM believes that non-sapient beasts are incapable of comprehending a divine mark, so it worked out... sometimes, against sapient foes though I spent most of the fights face down in the dirt below 0 HP

>>45067399
I was hoping the paladin healing powers/honored foe/virtuous recovery would make up for lost AC. Guess pallies really need those shields after all

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>>45067355
>>45067367
>>45067399

"Defender with a fullblade" syndrome is perhaps a side effect of bringing 3.5 sensibilities into 4e.

This cleric|paladin player, of course, is at least using a craghammer (dwarf) and a heavy shield, and their actual build is not... *too* bad.

Level: 6
Race: Dwarf
Class: Hybrid cleric|paladin

Ability Scores (Level 1): Strength 18+2, Constitution 11+2, Dexterity 10, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 14, Charisma 10
Ability Scores (Level 4): Strength 19+2, Constitution 11+2, Dexterity 10, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 14, Charisma 10

Feats:
Free: Versatile Expertise
Level 1: Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency)
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 4: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 6: Power of Strength

At-Will Powers: Holy Strike (paladin), Priest's Shield
Encounter Attack Powers: Healing Strike (cleric 1), Strength from Valor (paladin 3)
Daily Attack Powers: Paladin's Judgment (paladin 1), Hallowed Advance (cleric 5)
Encounter Utility Powers: Virtue (paladin 2), Bastion of Health (cleric 6)

This player actually has some fairly good power choices, aside from the middling choices of Priest's Shield and Paladin's Judgment, but what really bothers me here is the maximized Strength, the lack of Mighty Challenge, and a build that would be better accomplished by a cleric|ranger (for a highly durable striker/leader) or simply a regular single-classed paladin.

>>45067131
>I'll return soon to handle your loli valkyrie.
Tell us more.

>>45067520
is maxing out your main attacking stat really such a problem for defenders?

>>45068001
Absolutely not, you should just keep your defenses up as well somehow (for example, using a shield).

>>45068001
A paladin doesn't get much out of it.

>>45067570
This.

I'm sick of how incomplete the official character creator is. The divine healer feat doesn't let you take battle cleric's lore, monastic disciple doesn't let you pick desert wind or eternal tide FoB

Is there an offline one that is more complete?

>>45069891
I think the offline one is more updated by the fans, but you still have to houserule some things (for example, monk hybrid can't take desert wind and eternal tide).

Here: https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder

>>45069966
Well I installed it, and it's missing exactly the same things that the online builder is missing

>>45071203
Well, at least you won't have to give your shekels to WotC now.

>>45071203
Did you install the cbloader?

>>45069891
>The divine healer feat doesn't let you take battle cleric's lore

Why are you a degenerate?

>>45069891
Where's the official character creator?

>>45077592
dndinsider.com

I'm bumping in hopes of loli valkyrie stories.

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>>45081919
That would be rather awesome... I know my next character now, at least!

>>45081976
More?

>>45082953
Sadly, no. That's about the only stuff I have like that (only grabbed it to troll a friend)

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>>45067131
>>45081919
>>45081976

This is a play-by-post game. I normally GM and play real-time games (since a fortnight ago, I have been GMing about four or five times a week and playing four times a week), but I had decided to give play-by-post an attempt.

This is a level 6, one-on-one (with NPC allies) game of D&D 4e. The premise is that the character is a weak female valkyrie. I did not think it appropriate to negotiate to play some sort of valkyrie trap.

The game started on January 25, 5:55 A.M. EST, and since then, I have received only five posts from the GM. Meanwhile, I have been available for posting for large portions of the past several days, and thus I find myself displeased with just how slow-paced this game is. Do play-by-post games normally move at *this* much of a crawl?

In any event, it was quickly established that my character found herself awakening in a dilapidated temple without any of her gear. Off in the distance, there was an unarmored cleric of poor battle prowess feebly trying to fend off what seemed to be a mid-heroic skeletal brute. It was established that this undead creature was profane and sacrilegious to the gods of this ruined temple.

There were a few meager spears nearby, but I thought better than to try to take on a reasonably formidable opponent while underequipped and without any especially relevant powers (my character was a houseruled Intelligence-based runepriest focusing on melee AoE attack powers used through heavy blades).

So, I turned to my character's skills. There was an especially sad-looking area of the temple full of rubble. I thought that it would be cool and interesting to use my character's runic knowledge and Religion skill to try to jury-rig and reconsecrate the temple by scribing the right runes in the dust and trying to beseech its patron gods. I was not looking for an instant victory, but perhaps something to even the playing field.

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>>45085362

I considered spending a minor action to assess the situation and see if my high-Intelligence, high-Wisdom character thought it possible to quickly and temporarily reconsecrate the temple that way, but I decided against it; the DM posted only once per day on average, so I would be wasting precious time.

Thus, I went ahead and spent a standard action to attempt the reconsecration, and I even happened to roll quite high on my Religion skill. I thought that the DM would be fine with this, since this was clearly a situation where turning to my character's combat powers would not be especially helpful (no truly relevant powers and terrible equipment).

I waited a day for a response, and... the DM ruled that the temple was too ruined to be reconsecrated that way against this abomination that its gods loathed, so my standard action and high Religion check result were both wasted. Then the cleric and the skeletal brute exchanged blows, and it was my turn again.

I am feeling more than a tad miffed by this since I eagerly waited an entire day to see the results of my character's attempt at improvisation, only to have it completely disregarded (and asking if it would have been possible beforehand would have forced me to wait 24 hours for a reply). Furthermore, it is now growing increasingly clear that I am going to have to play out an arduous slog that is battling a mid-heroic-tier skeletal brute with nothing more than at-will powers and meager equipment, which might just take a whole week or more just for this *single* monster.

(I knew that my character would be starting with no equipment, but I was at least expecting to be geared up before the first battle, so as to avoid a monotonous, low-damage slog.)

I am strongly considering speaking to the GM of these points of dissatisfaction of mine and then dropping out of the game altogether. What does /tg/ think? How should I best express myself?

>>45085371
Tell him that you quit, right now, then link him to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_obeR1OIm8

Then give him a link to your comment.

How do I time travel in 4e?

>>45086767
Off hand, Eladrin Lord ED. Or custom epic ritual.

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>>45085362
>>45085371
>>45085642

As a status update, the DM has allowed my character to essentially reclaim the actions of that turn.

However, there were still many more ambiguities in the battle and the terrain... and the answers to my inquiries regarding those ambiguities merely opened up more questions which I had to ask... and it seems that now, I will have to wait another 24 hours simply to be crystal-clear on what is actually going on in the battle and thus take my turn.

Are play-by-post games normally this slow? It is making me lose all interest in the game.

>>45086767
>>45086979

The Feyliege epic destiny does not allow for true time travel.

The Time Portal level 20 ritual from page 18 of Dragon #430, on the other hand, does. With a History check of 19 or lower, you can open up a portal to up to a year ago; 20-29, up to a decade; 30-39, up to a century; 40+, any point in the past.

Yes, this is tremendously powerful and campaign-changing. Be warned, however: the ritual appears in an Unearthed Arcana article dedicated to time travel, and that same article suggests many possible limitations to the efficacy of instigating changes in the past.

>>45087077

Well, it's SORTA Time Travel with the Feyliege.

It's just not time travel for you currently. It's time travel for your future self.

What are some good Epic Destinies for an Int/Wis Artificer beyond the 'These are always good for everyone' ones like Demigod?

>>45087077

The items from 430 are amazingly entertaining.