/swg/ - Lethan Edition

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Let's talk about Muslim Jedi for a minute.

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>>44984008

Why do you want to talk about Barriss Offee?

modelfag here, new mould looks good apart from overly thick wings and some issues getting the resin into the laser cannons again (talcum powder made a smooth cast without bubbles but I think the talc didn't get everywhere, so bubbles at those extremities).

Also, the sacrifices I make for howlrunnerfag to see a squadron of his beauties one day soon, had a bad scalpel stick into my thumb, now bandaged and bathroom cleaned of a good amount of blood.

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>>44984019
Because she was right.

>>44984008
What the fuck? I really hope that's fake

>>44984156
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/why-the-world-could-use-a-muslim-jedi/

>HAROON MOGHUL, Author: The day before “The Force Awakens” was released, I wrote an open letter to its director, J.J. Abrams, who also rebooted “Star Trek.”
>With tensions between Muslims and our neighbors worse than I had ever known, I asked Abrams to add a positive Muslim character to one of these franchises, maybe, I mused, a Jedi named Mohammed.
>But many readers were dismissive. One wrote simply that Star Wars was set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, where Islam doesn’t exist.
>By missing my point, he made my point. We can accept a Ben Kenobi, though Ben’s a Hebrew name. We don’t seem to have any trouble with Luke Skywalker, even though Luke was also one of the 12 apostles. Captain Jim Kirk, great, but a Captain Hussein Kirk, that made some readers think I wanted Sharia law on the bridge, when I had said no such thing.
>I only wanted us to confront how we treat Muslims. Islamophobia is real, and it’s ugly. Robert Doggart allegedly planned to attack Muslims in New York with guns, bombs, even a machete.

>>44984207
Oh, it's real.

On the other hand he got fucking destroyed in the comments, so that's something.

>>44984207
>Says he wants a mud character in a sci fi franchise
>Gets told "no, this is a world without our religions"
>ABLOOBLOO I JUST WANTED A NAME FORGET I USED THE RELIGION AS AN ADJECTIVE DESCRIBING THEM WE HAVE COMMON NAMES FROM OTHER RELIGIONS PORTRAYED WITH NO RELATION TO THAT RELIGION JUST PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED

Might be the blood loss, but I really feel that guy is flame baiting to pull a muh oppression narrative, which considering that directors like Abrams have already alienated many with their diversity hire > sensible hire approach to film making is kinda insane.

>>44984207
Well there are Tusken.

>>44984026
How was she right? The jedi council being the apex of incompetence is a recurring theme in Star Wars, but I'm not seeing how were they responsible for continuing the war. It's not like leaving it to Tarkin &co would quicken the end or anything, the clones are pretty explicit about it.

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>>44984008
Hah!

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>>44984305
She blames the Jedi for starting the war, and she's right: the Jedi started they Clone Wars when Yoda rushed off to safe friends with clones (of a bounty hunter that tried to kill Padme and was linked with the Separatists).

>>44984418
>THIS REPUBLIC IS FAILING!
>IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME
Absolutely correct as history within the setting proves.

>>44984418
>>44984026
What i'm confused about, is how shes was not punished severely for her actions.

>>44984418
And what should Yoda have done instead?
Also it's a bit late to bomb the jedi, even if they are at fault, they're the quickest way to peace as of the bombings, so she's still stupid unless she only wants revenge.

>>44984432
>THIS REPUBLIC IS FAILING!
>IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME
It is with that attitude, missy.

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>>44984207
>I asked Abrams to add a positive Muslim character to one of these franchises
Did this guy not notice the Arab captain in the opening scene of Star Trek? I mean that's the fucking terrorist leader from Iron Man playing a decidedly good-guy character.

>>44984467
Ignore this guy. He pops up every 3 threads or so about how those bastard jedi DARED to start the clone wars by not allowing 3 unarmed people to be murdered in a slave pit.

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>>44984008
>This motherfucker not knowing the most based rebel leader around
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gial_Ackbar/Legends

>>44984446
The Council spared fucking Revan m8. What did you expect?

>>44984570
Not to mention the fact the Separatists had a fucking massive robot army.

I mean that's the real question, what the fuck would have happened if they didn't have a secret clone army? I mean obviously Sheev and Dooku wouldn't have militarized the seperatists. But your random civilian in the Republic wouldn't know that.

>>44984026

>right
>"Hey, I'm against this war, where innocents die, so I will make a bomb, and have a wife feed it to her husband, because I can do stuff like that, and kill innocents with it, that'll prove I was right all along"

Barriss and the likes of Padme and Bail Organa should have been fucking put up against a wall and shot.

>>44984724
>had a fucking massive robot army that already attacked a republic world (Naboo)
FTFY. Without previous knowledge of Dooku/Sheev relationship, not creating an army would have been absolutely retarded. Historically, the republic's "local militia" approach to warfare has always yielded shit results.

>>44984754

So why am I paying space taxes in the Republic, if the Republic can't defend me?

Are the Jedi+Whatever random mercs the republic digs up supposed to constitute an army?

>>44984745
>Barriss and the likes of Padme and Bail Organa should have been fucking put up against a wall and shot.
"Pacifists" in this franchise are always written in such a bad way. Add Satine to the list, too.

>>44984670
They had plans for Revan.
Bariss was a nobody.

>>44984745
You've forgotten the increased stupidity of it.

>Oh I'm not going to broadcast what any of this stuff means, or why I blew up the temple, I'm just gonna blame it on my friend. Which will be pointless if/when I do my next bombing.

Seriously her "Oh the Jedi have gone down the wrong path" message is totally lost, because the bombing was made to look like an individual attack by Ahsoka it ends up meaningless, or it just looks like a Seperatist plot, which would only further escalate the war.

>>44984787
>So why am I paying space taxes in the Republic, if the Republic can't defend me?
Are you agreeing with me?
>Are the Jedi+Whatever random mercs the republic digs up supposed to constitute an army?
Are you calling the clones "random mercs"?

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>>44984806

What did Padme do to you?

>>44984670
At least with Revan it was a case of "Only they know where the Star Forge is, so we're going to have to brain fondle him into telling us"
Offee just cracks under the pressure and blows up a hangar. You'd think the BUILDING FULL OF PEOPLE WHO CAN READ EMOTIONS LIKE PEOPLE READ BOOKS would have noticed she wasn't handling the war well
>>44984787
Doesn't the Republic maintain at least a token fleet? Or did an entire Navy fall out of the same orifice they pulled the Clone Army from?

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>>44984838

>it's a Padme and Jar Jar episode

>>44984842
They had a functioning navy. But it was composed of patrol fleets and we're horribly outdated.

>>44984806
Satine was alright by me, at least she didn't throw away her principles at a drop of a hat. And had the dignity to accept that the people weren't supporting her anymore

>>44984838
She actively acted against the interests of the republic (unless she knew about the siths, which she didn't).
Also she was a shit tier waifu for Anakin, fuck that bitch, he should have force pushed her back to Clovis.

>>44984832

If the Republic relies on planetary militias, then why do citizens pay taxes into the Republic, that's what I mean.

And I'm not referring to the Clones. I'm referring to whatever the Republic was doing before that.

>>44984867
What made me hate Satine is that shes turning Mandalore into a pussy state.

>>44984867
>at least she didn't throw away her principles at a drop of a hat
Is that a plus to you?
>I'm sworn to uphold the interests of my people!
>fuck their interests, my principles come first!

>>44984854

>ANAKIN, SHEEV PALPATINE IS A SITH LORD AND PLANS TO USE THE CLONE WARS AS A MEANS TO GAIN MORE EMERGENCY POWERS AND USURP THE REPUBLIC

>>44984884
Having your planet reduced to ash because you were too busy being the easily manipulated honor before reason warrior race tends to put the common man off going to war

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>>44984893

>Sheev

I wonder who approved that.

>>44984884
Get out of here Death Watch.

I thought she was fairly justified in wanting that. They'd been through a shitty civil war, one where she personally had to go on the run for a year, and their society was flourishing under peace, and was only fucked up by the galactic war that was outside of their control.

>>44984871
>If the Republic relies on planetary militias, then why do citizens pay taxes into the Republic, that's what I mean.
For the navy, essentially. And all the government shit. Think Europe.

>>44984892
She never worked against their interests though?
Mandalore was neutral, the people wanted to remain neutral, and she worked to maintain that neutrality
When their interests changed, and the people sided with Vizlaz, she maintained her own personal principles of non-violence but accepted that the people had rejected them

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>>44984884

>Mandalorians
>In 20BBY

>>44984903
Yeah well she literally went from one extreme to the other, she was as retarded as Vizla. Her planet became a nest of corruption and was easily taken over by terrorists because of her idiotic policies.

>>44984903
>>44984914
Get up or nut-up. You pretentious neo-shit heads. The galaxy has enough peaceful planets. If madalore had a proper military the Republic would have licked our boots begging us to fight for them.

>>44984904

Whoever OK'd Star Wars: Tarkin

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>>44984928

Ah, wrong image

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>>44984928

>on Mandalorians
>text doesn't mention them at all

Were you thinking of this?

>Perhaps there will be no new age, Mandalore, no great Mandalorian crusade. Perhaps your people fought their last battle at Malachor V, and you have been dying ever since, a quiet death that will last centuries. And perhaps all that remains will be what I see before me: a man, wounded by a Jedi, encased in a Mandalorian shell, haunted by the thought of being the last of the Mandalorians.

>They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi.

>>44984926
>She never worked against their interests though?
Her principles required suicidal policies. Look at all the corruption and how easily they were taken over.

>>44984930
One corrupt minister isn't a nest of corruption, its one corrupt politician. Honestly, compared to the Senate only having one corrupt minister is a fucking impressive feat
And Mandalore wasn't easy for Deathwatch to take, the only plan they had involved baiting an army or equivalent force to attack so Deathwatch gets to play the glorious savior. Otherwise they're just stuck on the moon with their thumbs up their asses complaining about the old ways

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>>44984951

I noticed

>>44984745
Whats wrong with Bail? I thought he was okay with the war, but just uncomfortable with giving over more powers to Sheev?

>>44984467
>what should Yoda have done instead?
What he tells Luke to do when Luke wants to run off and save his buddies: don't.

Instead, he ignites a powder keg, using clones that are tied to the bad guys. Good going, Yoda.

>>44984938
Except that's also false. Vizsla didn't give a shit about having a greater fight, he actively rejected it, he only cared for Mandalore. Hence why the fuck Maul killed him off.

And also it wasn't easy to take, he needed a Sith lord to plan the whole fucking thing, because his own plans were awful. And they also needed shit-load of criminal gangs to enact said plan.

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>>44984980

No, I get that, that's fine, but I was more talking about the way they went against increasing the amount of clones to fight the war.

>>44984969
>its one corrupt politician.
>and police force
>and dock management
>and school administrators
>etc..

>And Mandalore wasn't easy for Deathwatch to take
No? It just required a small group of retarded terrorists helped by three crime lords. To take over an organized government.
Think about it. If the US government were to be toppled by a group of appalachian hicks helped by the mafia, the cartels, and the russian mob, what would you think of it? "Impressive" wouldn't really come to my mind to be honest.

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>>44985005

Get out of here, Visas

>>44984995
>don't
The result being, the separatists murder the most pacifist republic senator and two jedis. That's surely gonna help keep the peace.
What would that have accomplished?

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Worth a listen for the storytime, I laughed damn hard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ylzrfaDdxk

>>44984995
Why do you think Yoda tells him that?
Yoda made the same mistake once, and it snowballed into such a cluster fuck the Jedi Order was all but destroyed
>>44985005
Bail and Padme both sought a peaceful resolution to the fighting, if they'd stayed silent on increasing military spending and troop numbers people would question their commitment to peace

>>44984418
She really is absolutely right.

>the jedi are the ones responsible for the war
Yes, they started the war by sending in the clones against the Separatists.

>the Jedi are an army fighting for the dark side
Absolutely true. They were acting in soldiers in Palpatine's army, and Palpatine is an agent of the Dark Side.

>the republic is failing
The Republic does fail and the Empire takes over.

Her message is 100% accurate. Maybe if they listened to her, Palpatine wouldn't have won and the Empire never would have come to be.

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>>44985025

>It is good that you have never wondered what lay beneath her robes, if her alabaster skin was as white and unblemished as her face. Or if perhaps she bore the scars of slavery... and if that would stir you more. Perhaps her deferent tone would change once you held her by the throat, and showed her how far a Jedi can fall.

It's okay, Kreia, I get it, you want me to mate with her.

>>44985046
Exactly. Yoda made a mistake by running in to save Anakin with the Clone Army that he never should have trusted. He learns from this mistake during his exile on Dagobah.

>>44985008
>three crime lords
Three bosses of crime syndicates that spanned entire sectors. Crime syndicates that even the Empire, at its height, had to negotiate with rather than outright crush
Shit, the Hutts control an entire stellar region that exists beyond Republic and later Imperial control
These aren't small time gangs

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>>44985065

Kreia never told me that.

>>44984207
>Ben Kenobi
His real name is Obi-Wan which isn't even real outside of this fucking space fantasy.
It's shits like this that get so over focused on representation and oppression or what the fuck ever that we can't have nice things internationally. America is the most liberal piece of shit country even in comparison to other liberal piece of shit countries but apparently freedom to not get fucking shanked in the streets because they have dirt skin on a daily basis isn't good enough. Just cause people are emotionally and verbally shit and we have sparing hate crimes doesn't mean you can expect JJ to just suddenly make a main character something else.
I mean, for shit sake FINN IS BLACK AND PEOPLE COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT TO THE POINT OF (very unsuccessful) BOYCOTTING! What the fuck does he think would happen if someone literally named Mohammed was in the movie?

>>44985054
The Jedi Order at the time had an established tendency to ignore the prophecies of people who turned out to be absolutely right
See: Sifo Dyas , who predicted the need for an army to defend the Republic but was ignored by the Council
>>44985069
23 or so years sitting on your ass in the middle of a swamp planet gives you a lot of time to reflect on what you fucked up to get here

>>44985076
>These aren't small time gangs
Neither are those I mentioned, they have larger incomes than half the world's governments. But I still wouldn't expect them to take over any halfway decent country. Remember, Mandalore's defense forces were OVERWHELMED by a crime wave. A fucking crime wave, not open warfare. The first job of a government is to ensure the safety of its people, Satine's policies ensured the exact opposite of that.

>>44985054
You're also an idiot

>the jedi are the ones responsible for the war
And had they not fought? What would the Seperatists have done with their massive droid army, led by a Sith fucking Lord?

>the Jedi are an army fighting for the dark side
Might even give you this, whilst the jedi's intentions were good, they were being manipulated. But if you were to be hustled by a con artist, he's the one that's commited the crime, not you.

>the republic is failing
See both points. The Republic was always going to fail. If they hadn't fought, it would have fallen to the Separatists, and when they did fight, they were falling to Palpatine's plot.

>>44984893
I always got the feeling Dooku didn't know Sidious and Palpatine were the same guy. At least in the movies, it felt like maybe it was true that Dooku really was still a Jedi, and he was just deep undercover, pretending to be a Sith to try to reveal the truth about Sidious.

The look on his face when Palpatine orders his execution isn't the face of a man being betrayed (besides, a Sith should expect betrayal), it's the face of a man who's finally connected the dots.

>>44985140
I know this is gonna say (you) but fuck it.

Also I seem to remember that Islamic religions aren't allowed to have actual human or identifiable images within art that represents them or their prophets and namesakes? Because apparently this retard didn't.

>>44984995
Two fucking jedi, and a senator murdered.

A senator, who, mind, the Sepretests had already tried to murder, on fucking Corusant.

Yes, because they totally should have left that happen, you dribbling retard.

>>44985150
>And had they not fought?
They could try, oh gee, I dunno, diplomacy.

The Separatists had demands. Jedi never even tried listening to them.

Or, hell, use the Clone Army, but don't fucking trust them when they're clones of a guy who was found working for the Separtists. Like, they know these are clones of Jango, the guy who tried to kill Padme, yet never once do they find this suspicious enough to investigate it? I'm an idiot? No, that's idiotic.

>hustled by a con artist
Except they're Jedi, not some dumb rubes. Or, at least, they're supposed to be.

>Republic was always going to fail
With the Jedi acting like clowns, most definitely.

>>44985169
Na. That's a face of a man that cannot believe his master just ordered his execution

>>44985225

>Except they're Jedi

And Palpatine is apparently quite literally the most powerful Sith Lord who ever existed, so bully for them.

>>44985222
>a senator of a backwater world gets killed along with two bodyguards
Not the end of the galaxy, dude.

It is the end of the Republic when you rush to war without even thinking, especially when the whole thing is suspicious as fuck.

>>44985225
>They could try, oh gee, I dunno, diplomacy.
>trusting homicidal republic traitors to uphold their bargains when you have no means to defend yourself

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>>44985037
That was pretty good. I enjoyed it.

>>44985225
The Separatist demands were blatantly unreasonable, and even if negotiations had gone ahead they wouldn't go anywhere. The Separatists want to leave, but once you let one group secede from a state than you start a timer for that state's dissolution as other parties decide they want to go it alone for whatever reason
And that's not even accounting for the fact that Sheev, playing both sides, would just cause the talks to fail and start his war anyway

>>44985248
No, it's the end of the Republic when you sit by and let some shitfaces murder your people and do literally nothing.

Again, I say. Dribbling. Retard.

>>44985251
You know, when North Korea imprisons or kills people who invade their territory, we don't drop bombs on them. We saber rattle then diplomacy because nobody wants a World War III.

Yoda started a World War III over fucking Anakin, Padme, and Kenobi.

>>44985294
You literally can't be this fucking stupid, can you?

>>44985275
What were their demands? Can you list them?

Also, the Republic was a "voluntary join" thing anyhow. Seems like they should allow people to voluntarily leave their organization, too.

I just don't understand why they chose to only use clones. Like I get that they needed them right then and there but afterwards there was no reason they couldn't start recruiting actual people or start building their own droid army. All in all the Jedi were painfully incompetent, especially Yoda who should have been able to connect the dots, or Obi Wan who gets told almost flat out by Count Dooku that the Supreme Chancellor is a Sith lord.

>>44985306
>has no argument
>"i know, i'll call him stupid"
I genuinely don't get why you're work up over this.

>>44985294
>We saber rattle
But the republic can't do that, because no army aside from shit tier militias with a 20k years long tradition of incompetence and failure.

>>44985244
By far and away the most successful. I guess 4 thousand years of backstabbing thanks to the Rule of Two had a positive impact after all.
Saying that, I still believe Sheev succeeded in spite of being Sith, not because of it
>>44985248
>Naboo
>Backwater world
Try "homeworld of the Chancellor of the Republic". Its not a core world by any means but Naboo is pretty important.
And, even more importantly then that, if the Jedi let a Senator die, how can people trust them as keepers of the Galactic peace? Just letting the executions go ahead undermines their mandate

>>44985294
That's because North Korea has yet to imprison and attempt to execute a presidential cabinet member, a senator, and I can't think of an analog for Anakin but he'd still be a relatively important person.

>>44985317
Clones are cheaper, faster, come out of the tubes grown and perfectly trained
In the time it takes you to train a somewhat competent militia into an effective force, Kamino has shat out several battalions worth of clone troopers

>>44985278
No, it really isn't.

Keep in mind, the Republic never even sends forth a message asking to negotiate the return of these three before they're executed.

>Separatists: Death by arena!
>Republic: We want to negotiate their return.
>Separatists: Delay that death. Let's talk with the Republic about this.

I mean, these were three people who invaded Separatist territory and were spying and destroying their guard droids. They were kind of guilty.

>>44985308
>Also, the Republic was a "voluntary join" thing anyhow. Seems like they should allow people to voluntarily leave their organization, too.
Non sequitur byddu, if anything the fact that they voluntarily joined weakens their secessionist claim. Think about an investment fund: you apply to join when shit's going good, subscribing to rules and shit about how and when to leave. If you flaunt those rules the first moment shit goes bad, you're in the wrong.

>>44985324
And now they have a Clone Army. Saber rattle with it. Make a show of Force without invading.

>>44985351
HOLY FUCKING SHIT. You really are this goddamn stupid. Wow. WOW.

>>44985294
Kinda hard to saber rattle when you don't have an army.
Kinda hard to diplomacy when the other side is LITERALLY never going to actually agree to anything meaningful because they're just fishing for a casus belli.
North Korea can be cowed by threats because they KNOW that China is going to leave them high and dry if they start an actual war, and that they can't win a war where the entire region comes down on them like a sledgehammer.
The only reasons they HAVEN'T been wiped off the map yet are that the South wants a peaceful reunification, and that in the process of getting their shit stomped they would inflict a lot of casualties on major South Korean population centers.

>>44985358
No, the fact that they voluntarily joined goes to show that there should be some way of also voluntarily leaving the Republic. Honestly, I don't get what the Republic has to lose by having these guys leave it anyways. The Republic isn't the Empire. It's a democratic organization. If the Separatists vote to leave it, they should respect their decision.

>>44985225
You seem to be under the impression that the Jedi were the Rulers of the Republic. Negotiation on that scale would have fallen to the Chancellor and the Senate. And since the Chancellor wanted the war, the negotiations would always have failed.

And do you remember how well diplomacy went with the Trade federation? The Jedi came to negotiate, the Trade federation decided to gas the room.

You have to remember the Jedi were reliant on following the force. Palpatine had corrupted the force so much they could no-longer rely upon it to guide them.

And again seem to be ignoring the whole GIANT ARMY OF FUCKING DEATH ROBOTS. What could a 'peaceful' separatist movement even need that for?

>>44985327
>I guess 4 thousand years of backstabbing thanks to the Rule of Two had a positive impact after all.
Pretty sure the ro2 was only 1k years old.

>>44985360
>Make a show of Force
Against who? The seppos are literally the republic only enemy. Are you suggesting the republic provokes a war with the hutts just to saber rattle? Better just strike a death blow to the seppos capital world.

>>44985384
>Kinda hard to saber rattle when you don't have an army
See >>44985360

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So, yes, I stand by what I said before.

Don't talk to this fucking retard, he can't be even remotely reasoned with, his head is stuffed so far up his asshole he can see the fuzz on the back of his teeth.

Ignore, and move on.

Have some Empire Today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7bmXywWus8

>>44985401
>Are you suggesting the republic provokes a war with the hutts just to saber rattle?
No, because that's not saber rattling. That's fighting.

Saber rattling would be the Republic running Clone Trooper drills near Separatist space. Sort of like what the US does whenever North Korea toes the line.

>>44985388
If there is a way to withdraw from the Republic, clearly its not something the Separatists are willing or able to do. It's not just one group, its a whole mess of different factions and guilds on the Separatist side
And that's just the ones who were part of the Separatist bloc before the war began, after it got started several Republic worlds flipped to the CIS. It's pretty clear there were others who also wanted to leave but felt they couldn't before the war began

>>44985404
>>44985426
Did you miss the part in >>44985384 about why we haven't turned North Korea into a smoking fucking crater?
They have heavy artillery within range of, and aimed at, Seoul. An active attack would result in civilian deaths on a horrific scale.
The Separatists have no such metaphorical gun to the head of a major population center. So it makes complete sense to just go in and fuck their shit before they can get themselves similarly dug in like an Alabama tick.

A reposted question, how to write Revan right?

>>44985388
>the fact that they voluntarily joined goes to show that there should be some way of also voluntarily leaving the Republic
Why? It's not a given at all. Plenty of regions willingly joined nations without any stipulation on being able to leave in history.
>Honestly, I don't get what the Republic has to lose by having these guys leave it anyways
Oh gee I don't know, maybe they don't want to have a competitor state that actively tries to subvert republic governments, has a massive army, and actively tries to murder senators?

>>44985432
>a big group of people want to leave the Republic
Republic should just say bye-bye. Again, the Republic ain't the Empire. They're not about ruling people with an ironfist.

Instead, the Republic tries to act like the Empire and then becomes the Empire, and the Jedi just play along with it.

It's like, in Star Trek, not every planet belongs to the Federation, and they seem pretty cool with it. Sure, there are tensions, but the Federation never seems to pursue war but rather diplomacy with planets outside the Federation.

>>44985426
That's only because the Us already had a large army with a deadly reputation. The clones didn't. If anything, doing something so limited on the face of active warfare like Naboo would have shown weakness.

>>44985460
And the Separatists had a huge droid army. Other Anons made a big deal out of what a threat they were, and now you're saying they're not a threat because it's convenient for your argument.

Not to mention, Seoul could withstand an attack from North Korea according to experts (especially considering most that artillery is old and rusted), but that's getting off point.

Point is, the Republic had reason to seek diplomatic means rather than starting a war.

Sheev is the best character in star wars.

>>44985473
The goodbye part is hard because that would mean recognizing the Clankers as a legit Government

>>44985505
>US
>deadly reputation
America lost to Vietnam.

>>44985471
>>44985505
Please, I'm BEGGING you guys.

Stop talking to this idiot. Stop giving him attention.

>>44985530
Current Lore yes

EU not by a long shot

>>44985534
Why not recognize them as a legit government?

Again, the purpose of the Republic isn't really to rule all the galaxies. If that's the case, they should be able to coexist with the Separatists.

>>44985536
Tell the military on the ground that.

>>44985553
If the Clankers are a legit Government then anyone can feel free to succeed from the Republic turnibg the Republic into several splintered Governments

>>44985553
Once you recognise them as a legitimate government, every one else who has a problem with the Republic leaves. Then every who has a period of having a problem with the Republic leaves. Then people leave because the Republic is shrinking to the point of uselessness
Democracy is the carefully balance of no one quite getting exactly what they want. Once you give members the option to just leave if they don't like something, they will

>>44985317
The Jedi were painfully incompetent, true, but the clones were a much better option than any other available.

Each was a copy of a highly skilled mandalorian bounty hunter, possessing whatever innate traits he had. They were exceedingly loyal, having known literally nothing but their training and then fighting, and we're highly trained and well conditioned in a relatively short space of time. Furthermore, they came equipped with reasonably good weapons and armour. Best of all, you can order clones. You have no control over how many people volunteer, though admittedly you can influence it, and the republic wanted to avoid using a conscript force I would imagine, especially considering the associated issues with regards image and unit effectiveness.

They were better fighters than the droids and readily available when needed.

Now, admittedly, not all Jedi used clones but it wasn't the Jedi's choice. Im not even sure they held military Rank, they may simply have been similar to a noble whom had control of the army because he was a noble. Either way, the most the Jedi could do was agree and lead the forces to the best of their abilities, a role which many felt they had a duty to adopt, or refuse to use a clone army and raise their own force.

>>44985563
I'll avoid debating Vietnam in a Star Wars thread.

Point remains: the Republic could have taken their Clone Army and shown them off by running drills near Mustafar and sending footage of them marching in the streets of Coruscant while Palpatine watches from a balcony and applauds.

Instead, the Republic and Jedi both rush headfirst into a war they knew would throw all the galaxies into chaos and for what? At the end of the day, to save three nobodies.

>>44985585
*Turning

>>44985585
>>44985591
Fine. Let them leave if they aren't happy with the Republic. I don't see why the Republic feels like it has to strong arm people into staying when it's supposed to be this democratic entity. It's a contradiction.

>>44985426
The US military is both massive, well equipped, and has an established reputation.
This is the military that pushed the North Koreans from the Pusan Perimiter all the way to the Yalu River, and only stopped because the Chinese got involved.
China is on record telling North Korea that "Son, you're on your own" if they start a war.
North Korea will LOSE any war they start, and they know it.
The Seps, on the other hand, have a MASSIVE droid army, and aren't comically outnumbered. So saber rattling would be questionably effective at best.
>>44985518
>now you're saying they're not a threat
No, I'm saying that they're not able to cause massive civilian casualties on less than an hours notice like the North Koreans can.
>>44985518
>Seoul could withstand an attack from North Korea according to experts
It's not about the ability to withstand an attack. It's about not wanting to have an utterly horrifying scale of civilian casualties and infrastructural devastation.
Yes, Seoul is built as one big fortress to withstand a North Korean siege.
Buildings are designed to be collapsed across the streets to create barriers to slow invaders.
The entire city is designed to give the RoK army a fighting edge if they have to defend it.
But although they would successfully withstand the siege, there would still be civilian deaths on a scale not scene since the London Blitz, or the firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden.
This threat of civilian deaths, combined with the South's desire for a peaceful reconciliation with their Northern bretheren, are the only reasons America HASN'T assraped North Korea six ways from Sunday.

>>44985612
You are an idealist, I can respect that.

But all those who have power are afraid of losing it

>>44985612
>It's a contradiction
No it's not. If it is a democratic entity, then it should only let the seppos leave if the majority of the senate agrees with it.
Self-determination isn't democratic, it's anarchic.

>>44985350
But they aren't they take like 10 years to grow and train. It only takes a few months to train new recruits. As soon as the war started there should have been people getting recruited left and right. It makes even less sense when we see all the non clone officers.

>>44985638
I'm not going to debate Korea in a Star Wars thread.

>>44985641
And that goes back to the whole "the Jedi are an army fighting for the dark side" thing.

>>44985612
>supposed to be this democratic entity
That's entirely a result of stupid people using the wrong word.
The Galactic Republic is not a Democracy, it is (surprise surprise) a Representative REPUBLIC.
You elect a representative, who goes to the senate and votes on behalf of his constituents.

>>44985612
The Republic was established for the purpose of strength in unity and preventing wars. The seperatists declared an intent to leave, made demands, gassed the Republics chosen diplomats and then revealed that they owned a large droid army and attacked a Republic world.

Thats an act of war. Whatever way you want to spin it, thats an act of war. The Republic should have launched a campaign then and there if they could, instead they vaccilated before the Seperatists attempted to execute Republic operatives and a councilor. Yet another act of war, or at least theres a precedent in the real world for calling it such.

>>44985682
>I'm not going to 'debate' anything because it blows me out so hard my head almost has to leave my asshole!

>>44985681
The only non-Clone officers are navy ones, and even those are assisted by clone crewman
And they definitely take less than 10 years. They're decanting new generations of clones during the war, and that only lasted 3 years

>>44985665
But the Separatists democratically decided to leave the Republic. If the Republic truly stands for democracy, it should respect that. It doesn't because Palpatine is manipulating the Republic and the Jedi into acting contradictory to their nature and going into war.

I mean, we are talking about the Republic, who years earlier, when Queen Amidala addressed them about the Trade Union, started talking about sending an independent team to investigate the claims. The Republic isn't exactly gung-ho about war.

>>44985701
You aren't meant to debate Korea or 'Nam on /tg/ let alone a star wars thread. To be honest, even debating the merits of the US Military is getting yerself close to ban territory. Trust me, Ive been there.

I once got banned for discussing how the swiss militia system worked and how it might be applied to a fantasy world.

>>44985743
YOU'RE THE ONE WHO FIRST BROUGHT UP KOREA!

>>44985743
Sure thing. That's totally a thing that happened.

It's not just you being a lying intellectual coward or anything like that, noo.

>>44985736
>But the Separatists democratically decided to leave the Republic.
I don't remember them ever passing a motion in the republic senate about it, so no they didn't.
The moment they agreed to join the republic, their population became a fragment of the democratic vote. Even if that fragment voted 100% for separation, it still wasn't the majority of republic vote, so their act was subversive and most certainly not democratic.

>>44985695
And the elected representatives of those planets, following the will of their peoples, chose to leave the Republic. So if the Republic is truly a republic, they should respect that. Otherwise, they're going against the ideals of a republic.

Keep in mind, Sheev himself says "I love democracy" and not "I love republics."

>>44985749
Im a different dude. Not the dude that brought up Korea. I just saw the people going on about irl shit and remembered what happened.

>>44985754
See above. Im a different guy and, by and large, have little but disdain for how Americas military has performed in the last century or so.

I mean, they're really good at blowing up unarmed civilians in mud brick huts and hitting the wrong country with ''smart'' missiles but thats about it.

>>44985596
it is worth noting that in Lucas' original idea, the Rebels were the Vietcong to the Empire's America.

even at the time, it was pretty uncontroversial that we lost. sure, we could wipe a village off a map whenever we felt like it. but you know that line Leia gives to Tarkin?

"The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers?"

Vietnam's kind of exhibit A. (Afghanistan under the Russians, Afghanistan under the Americans, and Iraq under the Americans are exhibits B, C, and D).

Doesn't matter how overpowering your military is if you can't figure out how to get the civilians to stop killing you.

>>44985775
Oh, I see.

No, you nigger, you got banned for being a trolling retard.

>>44985749
He's not the one who brought it up.

I am, and only as an analogy, and when it was taken from "analogy for the main topic" to "let's talk about it solely and abandon the main topic," that's when I said I'm not going to talk about it.

This is a Star Wars thread. Let's talk about Star Wars, okay?

Can we just talk about Star Wars

>>44985799
We're talking about it, you intellectually dishonest retard.

>>44985804
Word.

How powerful of a sith Lord is sheev really?

>>44985724
No they do take about 10 years that's why there were only so many made with a million more units on the way, the new generations were being made as time progresses. This was so every clone lost wasn't a logistical nightmare but, that's still a long ass time. There was really no reason not to start recruiting especially when you consider how sketchy the clone army was as a whole.

>>44985784
ps this is why the Empire fails miserably: when you're run by an Emperor who views the masses hating the government as a desirable end goal, long-term Imperial stability is como se dice "garbage."

>>44985814
Yoda tier probably. But powerlevels are shit in Star Wars, and Sheev's strong point was his scheming rather than his indivual might.

>>44985792
Nope. I was discussing one system and wondering how well it would translate to a thing in my setting.

My hypothesis was ''if an army invaded a country and suddenly every fucking farmer was toting a crossbow and a shortsword where before there had been only the Royal Guard, they'd probably get fucked up''. Seems logical to me.

Come to think of it, how did the rebels go about defending any settlements that supported them? Did they station a military force or simply arm the civilians and let the civvies deal with it themselves? They dont seem large enough to actually garrison a location but it seems unlikely to me that theyd just abandon supporters.

>>44985814
EU Ridiculously
Movie still really powerful

>>44985814
Pretty fucking up there, if him kicking the everloving shit out of Maul and Savage is anything to go by.
Plus there's the whole "only Sith Lord to actually achieve domination over the galaxy and eradication of the Jedi" thing

File: xFRddI3.png (799KB, 1024x435px) Image search: [Google]

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>I AM TESS ENATE

So this is Palpatine's canon name, right?

>>44985766
It depends on the Republic's laws.

If the Republic is like the United Nations, it has no provisions for withdrawal of membership, meaning, under international law, a state can withdraw from the United Nations if it somehow breaches their treaty.

I think the Separatists have a case for that because the Republic clearly isn't caring about their interests.

>>44985842
Yessir. Tess is one wild mother fucker.

>>44985842
Hey Tess Enate, I'm Anon

>>44985829
I dunno about that, he seemed much stronger to me. He was far stronger than Yoda when they actually fought in RotS, and dealt with both Maul and Savage without much effort.

>>44985838
Sheev didn't even care was what hit me. Out numbered but didn't even bat an eyelid

>>44985881
Was Palpatine far stronger than Yoda in Sith? They seemed fairly evenly matched.

>>44985854
But the republic is a republic, whereas the united nations aren't even an alliance, only an intergovernmental organization. You should at the very least look at the EU for comparison, and even that is a less unified organization than the Republic is supposed to be. Since we don't know repuvlic laws, and the senate, even diplomatic pacifists like Organa and Amidala, call the seppos traitors, I think we can be pretty damn sure they flaunted all law to secede.

>>44985885
Sith Lords do well when being outnumbered, look at Dooku when he fights Obi and Anakin versus when he fights Anakin alone
Plus of course he trained Maul, so he knows how he fights
The thing that really surprises me is how well Sheev handled Savage, he was a bad huge bastard but Sheev blocked him effortlessly

>>44985881
>dealt with both Maul and Savage without much effort
I feel like that's not much of an accomplishment. Obi Wan and a bunch of pirates managed the same thing.
Young Obi Wan rekt Maul 1 on 1, and Savage was Asajj tier, no more.

>>44985830
>Come to think of it, how did the rebels go about defending any settlements that supported them?
I think the whole thing was that they worlds that supported the Rebellion kept it pretty low key, but I dunno, I wondered that to when reading an entry about Mon Calamari and how their world was one of the first to join the Rebellion.

>>44985907
Yoda always seemed to be running, whilst Palpatine was throwing the senate platforms and just laughing. I mean Yoda did the spinning trick with one of the platforms, but that seems to be more a clever application of his power rather than Sheev's effortless throwing of multiple platforms.

>>44985915
It's also a republic you voluntarily join, not one built on conquest.

The whole "traitor" thing could also be because, from Amidala and Organa's perspective, the Separatists attacked the Republic, an organization they were a part of.

>>44985970
>It's also a republic you voluntarily join
Exactly, so you have no excuse to just subversively rebel against it instead of properly following the law to leave. It's not like you were conquered and just trying to break free from your oppressor, you willingly fucking joined, now deal with it.
>The whole "traitor" thing could also be because, from Amidala and Organa's perspective, the Separatists attacked the Republic, an organization they were a part of.
So they're aggressors. Is aggression democratic too now? did republic citizens vote to be attacked by the seppos?

>>44985945
I'd count losing a fellow Jedi Knight recking someone. I mean first Qui-gon. Then the other Jedi died on Florrum when they fought Maul and Savage.

Savage himself was strong enough to cause both Dooku and Asajj problems on his own. And held off Anakin and Obi-wan at one point aswel.

>>44985954
Yoda gets some good moves in, like when he throws Palpatine on his ass right at the start.

>>44986008
This clusterfuck is why I started by saying powerlevels are shit in Star Wars. Character strength is based on narrative needs.

>>44985947
Well, even if they did keep it low key, what happened if they were discovered? I mean, even if its just a shitty backwater settlement on a ''nobody gives a fuck'' planet thats giving the rebels food, I doubt the Empire would let that stand, ya know?

>>44986004
>you willingly fucking joined
Except you didn't, an ancestor who happened to be born on your planet did ages ago, and back then, the Republic was a different organization than it is during the prequels.

>So they're the aggressors.
From a certain point of view, sure. In reality, the Republic invades Mustafar with Jedi and then a Clone Army, starting the Clone Wars.

File: alderaan-explosion-o[1].gif (325KB, 320x180px) Image search: [Google]

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>>44986037
>what happened if they were discovered?

>>44986037
>what happened if they were discovered
Probably like what happened to Lothal in Rebels: the Empire comes down hard, puts troops there, busts heads, makes a big show of force, sanctions on the planet, whatever to basically buttfuck the world into submission.

>>44986069
Did the Empire even have conclusive evidence that Alderaan was supporting the Rebellion? I know Leia did a lot of 'mercy missions' and the like, but did the Empire have reason to believe the entire planet was involved?

>>44986069
Was Alderaan even supporting the rebels? I was under the impression it was just Leia and a few others.

Even then, I doubt they did that to every planet.

>>44986089
This sounds more likely. Did the rebels just leave them to their fate or was there some form of organised resistance? Seems like a good opportunity to tie up Imperial resources with a vietcong style campaign.

>>44986053
You're climbing mirrors. Their government willingly joined, not individuals.
By your idea, I don't have to follow national laws against murder, because I didn't agree to them, my ancestor did. Do you understand how stupid you sound?

>why didn't thing all go well instead of going bad
>what do you mean it would completely change things?

>>44986120
>Did the rebels just leave them to their fate or was there some form of organised resistance?
From the show it looks like they were just left to their own devices, and without the Ghost crew knocking about the Imperials climbed down from the planetary lock down fairly quickly
Right now there just isn't the massive public support for the Rebellion you'd need to support going full VC on the local Imperial garrison

>>44986097
>>44986120
>Did the Empire even have conclusive evidence that Alderaan was supporting the Rebellion?
>Was Alderaan even supporting the rebels?
I don't know. My point was, the rebels as guerrilla fighters cannot defend ground when under direct attack, only retreat and regroup. I mean they can't defend fucking Hoth, how could they defend less military relevant planets?

>>44986120
Pretty much, yeah. In the latest episode, the Empire pulls out of Lothal when they find out the Rebels are on Garel.

>>44986155
They couldn't is probably the answer, not till they assembled a proper fleet. Even then, the Battle of Endor was a close cut thing, at least in space

>>44986127
Anon said, and I quote

>>44986004
>you willingly fucking joined, now deal with it.

This absolutely is not true.

No, I'm not arguing that you don't have to follow laws, but if you don't like your nation's laws, you are able to leave your country for another. I did.

>>44986097
No, but they didn't need it at that point. It was just a show of their power. As Tarkin said, Dantooine was too remote to be an effective demonstration.

>>44986021
Oh I don't deny Yoda was strong. It's just Palpatine always seemed to be in control, and also the fact that Yoda fled. If he thought that could have beaten Palpatine, he would have done, even if it had cost his life.

>>44986214
I'm watching that fight, and yeah, I get what you're saying with Palpatine controlling the fight. He even looks like he's enjoying himself.

>>44986151
>>44986155
Fair point. I guess I can see why people were so leery to support the rebellion if thats the sort of response its supporters could expect.

>>44986214
Well, the Dark Side has always been stated to be a faster route to power. Its not mad to imagine that this means its more combat applicable. Furthermore, with the dark side coming into a more dominant position, I think light side fueled powers were meant to be weakened.

This would mean Yoda was battling a fellow not only physically superior but also empowered by the more combat applicable side of the force which was in ascendancy at that point. His chances of survival were minimal and he needed to get his message out.

>>44986210
>if you don't like your nation's laws, you are able to leave your country for another
Unless you agree that you can't leave (or you only can under certain conditions). Think of military desertion.
In the seppos case, the individual citizens might well have left the republic (I quite doubt a mass exodus would have been stopped by military action), but the governments had agreed to be part of the republic, so they can't just up and leave. And by extension everything the government owns (meaning the whole planets) have to stay too.
When you left your country, your old home didn't become part of your new country's territory did it?

>>44986259
>He even looks like he's enjoying himself
He's balls deep into his endgame, being attacked by Yoda only further legitimizes his power grab and now he's discovered the last remaining challenge isn't actually that hard
It's the equivalent of an easy final boss, dude was expecting a much harder fight
>>44986263
>leery to support the rebellion if thats the sort of response its supporters could expect
Yeah, the Empire doesn't fuck about with challenges to its authority. They escalate a lot harder and in ways the Rebels aren't prepared to counter, look at Tarkin just firebombing a bunch of refugees and his own comms tower purely to fuck over the Rebels

>>44986339
Not to mention it's probably Palpatine's first chance to really let loose. I mean he's had to be hidden for so many years, escalating the conflict, and now he finally has a chance to kick that green dude in the face.

>>44986339
Not just from the empire. Whatever about not having the people, you'd think the rebels would give some of the citizens or even the local police or something a crash course in weapons usage and guerilla tactics and leave behind some weapons so the dudes could protect themselves.

I mean, how are you gonna plan a guerrilla campaign against a massive military power and not take some steps to secure your sources of supplies?

>>44986365
Lothal isn't a source of supplies, it's just another bumfuck Outer Rim world the Rebels are trying to wake up to fight the Empire
The will to resist just isn't there yet, and arming people would just make the crackdown longer and more brutal

>>44984261
>Abrams alienated many with their diveristy hire>sensible approach to filmmaking
Nigga WHAT. The Force Awakens is the 11th highest grossing film of all time when adjusted for inflation in 2014 dollars, and may even break into the top ten after the revenue is fully adjusted. It's four slots above fucking Avatar!

Say what you want about "diversity hiring", but it's pretty fucking clear it didn't alienate enough people to affect its revenue. And Rey is clearly a smashing success, women liked Star Wars before, and now they LOVE Star Wars.

>>44986321
When I left my country, my country didn't send killers after me.

Republic could and should have done the same.

>>44986399
>four slots above fucking Avatar!
In domestic, maybe. Overall? No.

>>44986422
People can move into and out of governments freely, governments can't just elect to leave a group of governments just because they don't like whats happening
The whole point of the Republic Senate is to have somewhere to settle these debates

>>44986422
What the fuck ar eyou talking about? You sent killers against your old country.
Need I remind you that before the first aggressive act of the republic (geonosis), the seppos had already attempted to murder Padme and harbored a group of mass murderers (the trade federation)?

>>44986365
By keeping mobile. I mean clearly from Yavin and Hoth they eventually have bases and stuff. But at the Rebels time-period, all they've got is a few ships and fighters.

You've got to remember that secrecy is paramount. The moment you start mass recruitment, the sooner you're going to attract attention. And let's face it teaching 10 people how to shoot a gun is going to do nothing to an army that spans the galaxy.

>>44986445
Even in overall terms TFA got within touching distance of Avatar within 30 days, while it took Avatar over 200 to make that much
The only reason TFA didn't make more is that it didn't catch on in China

>>44986447
And instead of trying to settle this debate in the Republic Senate, the Republic decided to settle the debate by sending Clone Troopers against the Separatists.

So what's the point of the Senate if you're just going to kill people who disagree with you? What's the point of the Republic? May as well turn it into an Empire.

Oh wait that's what happens.

>>44986321
>In the seppos case, the individual citizens might well have left the republic (I quite doubt a mass exodus would have been stopped by military action), but the governments had agreed to be part of the republic, so they can't just up and leave. And by extension everything the government owns (meaning the whole planets) have to stay too.
>European Union is eternal
>Nato has a right to prevent departures from EU
Old Republic was stagnant, weak and corrupt, it is no wonder they had US morals.

>>44986422
Yeah but you didn't firebomb your neighbours house nor make preparations to do so.

Not only did the Seperatists attempt to murder they diplomats sent to negotiate with them, they attacked a planet in the Republic and then later proceeded to attempt to murder some Republic officials. These are all acts of war with a real world precedent. On top of that, the Seperatists not only developed a droid army, despite knowing for a fact that the Republic had no army, but proceeded to improve their army and step up their ability to produce the droids that composed said army.

>>44986466
The Seppies had every opportunity to bring it to the Senate, instead they begin building armies of highly illegal battle droids and started prepping for war.

>>44986466
>And instead of trying to settle this debate in the Republic Senate that the seppos had just abandoned
Dude.

>>44986472
What are you even trying to say. Neither NATO nor the EU are governments. The republic was.

>>44986458
Jango Fett tried to kill Padme Amidala, not the Separatists. He was hired by Palpatine, who is the Chancellor of the Republic. In this way, the Republic tried to kill Amidala.

As far as the Trade Federation goes, the movies don't go into what became of them after Phantom Menace. It's likely they went to Republic court and were found innocent, or maybe they did their time.

>>44986511

Jango was hired by Dooku who was representing the CIS, and was working for Palpatine, who controlled the Republic.

>this thead

Who let Satine use a computer?

>>44986511
Jango Fett was in Dooku's payroll.
And the trade federation was a founding member of the seppos, with the same leaders as at the time of Naboo. Both ep 3 and TCW confirm these facts.

>>44986507
NATO is controlled by governments, mainly USA. EU does have a parliament, president, foreign minister, currency, anthem.. The laws it makes override national laws etc.

>>44986463
TFA blew its load early and has already dropped off. This is because TFA is the seventh film in a beloved franchise (which is why it didn't do well in China or other Asian countries: because it's not beloved there). So a bunch of people saw TFA in its first week or so, but then interest faded.

Meanwhile, Avatar wasn't a pre-existing intellectual property, so it had to build its audience from the ground up. A smaller audience saw it first, and they were so impressed by the film that they continued to go again and again, bringing friends. Word of mouth spread.

TFA isn't going to stay in theaters for as long as Avatar did. It's already gone from theaters where I am. What you're saying is dishonest.

>>44986554
Dooku was on Palpatine's payroll and doing his bidding, so even if you're right about that, Jango is still getting paid by and doing the bidding of Palpatine, just through a proxy.

Well lads, I finished Republic Commando today. Despite some jank, I think its aged pretty well even if the bullet sponge enemies and limited ammo make it a slog at times.

RIP Sev

>>44984207
tbqh there was a Muslim character in Hyperion cantos and he was fucking awesome. He was quite religious too, not the usual sci-fi trope where only vaguest cultural identity is left in the future.
There were space Catholics in those books too, and they were pretty cool, drawing from Teilhard de Chardin's philosophy. Also space ecologists turned into a religion.
Hyperion was cool in general.

Although for some reason the author made a really negative portrayal of Muslims in one of his later books.

>>44986558
>NATO is controlled by governments
Not the same thing as being a government.
>The laws it makes override national laws
Not unless approved at the national level. The EU is not even a proper federation, nevermind a fucking republic.

Neither NATO nor the EU are sovereign, the republic is.

>>44986496
And the Republic was building a Clone Army in secret. What's your point?

>>44986567
I was talking about how much money it made, so whether or not it was slow burn doesn't really matter
Its still impressive that it made nearly as much Avatar did in 200+ days in under a month

>>44986583
Palpatine, regardless of what he says, is neither the senate nor the republic. His acts were treasonous and illegal, so unless you want to defend him, you can't really use this argument.

>>44986627
Wrong, the army was grown independently by Dooku. The republic only discovered it after Obi Wan visited Kamino.

>>44986627
The Republic wasn't building that Clone Army. They didn't even know it existed until the Jedi found it
That clone army was ordered by a former Jedi Master, using money loaned from a banking clan. The Republic only picked it up after the fact

>>44986479
Neither did the Seperatists. That was Jango working for Palpatine.

They built an army. And? They didn't attack anyone. They built the army to defend themselves, and low-and-behold, they were absolutely right to because the Republic sent their Clone Army to murder them for simply choosing not to be a part of their completely option Republic.

Kenobi, Anakin, and Padme invaded their base and got punished by Separatist laws for it. When foreign nations punish US citizens, the US doesn't invade. That would be insane.

So really, the Republic is unjustified in attacking the Separatists.

>>44986627
They started building that army after the Seperatists were revealed to have a droid army.

Im not even that guy but come on dude, the Seperatists attacked a planet before they organised an army. And even then, it was 1 dude acting against the Republics wishes, not the republic itself.

>>44986652
>The Chancellor of the Senate isn't the Republic
No.

>Clones were grown by Dooku
Wrong again. Sifo-Dyas ordered them for the Republic.

>>44986677
No, the Clone Army was being built way before the droid army was revealed.

>the Separatists attacked a planet
No, they didn't. The Republic attacked the Separatists. You're confusing the Trade Federation with the Separatists. The Trade Federation paid for that crime.

>>44986667
Dude. Phantom Menace. The Trade Federation, who were part of the Seperatist movement, attacked Naboo. Thats an act of war. And the attempted assassination was payrolled by the seperatists.

Was it because of Palpatines manipulations? Yes, of course. But it was Palpatine manipulating the Seperatists. If I was manipulated by a cult leader to murder people, I would still be held accountable for my actions. The same should apply here, especially when the manipulation is unknown until after the fact.

>>44986686
>No.
Yes.

>Sifo-Dyas ordered them for the Republic.
Yes, under the influence of Plagueis, who was trying to undermine the republic, and directly against republic orders (the jedi council already denied him). Give up, there's no way the republic could be held accountable for their creation.

>>44986714
The Trade Federation were not a part of the Separatist movement during the Phantom Menace. The Separatists weren't even a thing in the Phantom Menace.

You're just getting your information wrong, dude.

>>44984008
>Muslim Jedi

You mean Tusken?

>>44986702
>The Trade Federation paid for that crime.
Wrong, they seceded with the seppos rather than submit to republic justice. Notice how they had the same leadership in both ep 1 and 3.

>>44986702
>No, the Clone Army was being built way before the droid army was revealed.
Are you sure? It takes ten years for the first generation of clones to grow to adulthood, and Sifo-dyas commissioned the army ten years prior to Episode II, which is ten years after Episode I. So he probably commissioned the clone army around the time the droid army was revealed in the Invasion of Naboo.

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>>44984207
>>44984261


>>JJ adds arab named Mohommad to Star Wars, not an offensive character, but it sticks out as a odd, specific name.
>>JJ also adds a character named Moses, cuz, noone should be left out.
>>Adds a Shiek character, cuz lets keep this going.

>>Crazy Muslims murder people in outrage over defamation of Muslims in a evil western film.
>>Less Crazy Muslims put a fatwa on the film for being anti-Muslim, even before the film is shown.

>>Hack liberal writers like Haroon Moghul bemoan Islamaphobia being the reason that the film has backlash.

>>Nvm the entire thing is clickbait for some hack writer to get traffic on a PBS page.

>>44986737
That's like saying President Obama isn't a part of America.

>Yes
Again, no. Dooku isn't Plagueis or Sifo-Dyas. Dooku didn't order the Clone Army and wasn't even Sith when they were ordered. A Jedi of the Republic ordered the Clones, and a leader of the Republic ordered the hit on Amidala. Yeah, the Republic holds more accountability for this than the Separatists, who had nothing to do with the clones being made.

>>44986702
>No, the Clone Army was being built way before the droid army was revealed.
Dude, Syfo Dias built the army specifically because of the threat he saw in the battle of Naboo.

>>44986775
>that image

Saved.

>>44986759
>Invasion of Naboo
Which isn't the Separatists and their droid army.

It was the Trade Federation and their much smaller droid army.

Again, you're making the mistake of equating the actions of the Trade Federation in Phantom with the Separatists, who didn't even exist at that point as Separatists.

>>44986781
But he is a Kenyan commie. He isn't the US, anon.

>>44986788
Which was by the Trade Federation, not the Separatists. Dude.

>>44986824
>>44986810
He had a vision of the future, it was the will of the Force.

Just to help you Separatists plead your case, I'll just quote Dooku from Attack of the Clones.

>"And when their battle droids are combined with yours we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed, and the republic will agree to any demands we make."

Now to me that sounds like a declaration of war. Building an army larger than anyone else, so make them succumb to your will/demands.

But of course the Republic should have just let them.

>>44985144

A crime wave caused by criminal syndicates who could bring entire planets to their knees at a whim. Yeah, I don't think having a militarized Mandalore would have prevented that.

>>44986828
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt7-WKXL5vw

So guys, I want to start a star wars campaign with my group. Which system can you recommend me?

>>44986841
>taking Yodo's advice on foresight after he drove the OJO into the ground with it
If the council hadn't rejected Sifo he wouldn't have fled to Kamino to covertly commission the clone army. He fulfilled his own vision by escalating the war but he had a vision nonetheless.

>>44986833
That's not a declaration of war.

A declaration of war is telling someone "we're going to attack you."

That's him saying "we'll have an army big enough that they will have to take us seriously when previously they ignored us."

>>44986849
That depends on what sort of game your group wants.

Personally I'm a big fan of FFG's stuff and would recommend them.

But if your group is used to just playing D&D and want Jedi Shenanigans you could just go for Saga.

>>44986781
>That's like saying President Obama isn't a part of America.
You're moving goal posts something mighty here. Being part doesn't mean representing it as an individual. Obama's private actions don't represent american policy, only his actions as the president do. And Sheev didn't order Dooku around by his power as the Chancellor.

>a leader of the Republic ordered the hit on Amidala
..Through a separatist leader, against republic law. By the same logic you're using, the seppos are essentially the republic (since Dooku is the CIS senate and also Sheev's pawn), so they're being criminals with every clone they kill.

>>44986824
>Which was by the Trade Federation
Which then offered their army to the seppos. If you think the republic is responsible for the clones, you must necessarily hold the seppos responsible for the droids, and the latter are older than the former.

>>44986871
Sifo's whole reason for making the Clones, though, was to protect the Republic. The Clones achieve the opposite of that: they destroy the Republic, paving the way for the Empire.

>>44986834
>A crime wave caused by criminal syndicates who could bring entire planets to their knees at a whim.
Implying implications. They did that to Mandalore, a planet wracked by corruption and without an army or even a sufficient police force due to Satine's criminal pacifist policies. I quite doubt they could have done the same on any other half decent planet, or they would have.

>>44986880
Notice the key point "The Jedi will be overwhelmed."

The Jedi are peacekeepers, and intervene only if necessary. For them to be 'overwhelmed' there would have to be violence, which would be war.

Yes they've not gone to the republic and said "Lol we're gonna kill you all k thx bye."

But their intentions towards the Republic are hostile.

>>44986905
They defended the Republic from the Separatists, and then defended the Republic from the Jedi
From a certain point of view

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>>44984207

>Islamophobia is real

Gee, I wonder why.

Might have something to do with how you fucking kill everyone who doesn't convert and rape their women and children.

>>44986667
>When foreign nations punish US citizens, the US doesn't invade. That would be insane.
Those US citizens aren't the Chosen One prophesied to bring balance to the Force.

>>44986884
The leader of the Republic called the shots and ordered Padme Amidala to be killed, yet it's the Separatists who are to blame for it. Yeah, sure. You keep hammering away at that one.

>Which then offered their army
After they'd already stood trial for their crimes and gotten off within the Republic. You can't hold the Battle of Naboo against them when the Republic sure as shit didn't. I mean, the Republic had four trials on Nute Gunray and he was found innocent for every single one of them.

>>44986921

It doesn't matter what planet it was, if three of the largest kajidics wanted to fuck up a planet, there would be no organization in the galaxy that could possibly stop them. There's not a single planet in the galaxy that would be able to handle that kind of heat, not a single damn one.

Your attitude basically claims that Alderaan, one of the most incredibly peaceful and happy planets in the galaxy, is a shit planet because it doesn't have an extensive militarized police force capable of waging wars.

Just listen to yourself and shut the fuck up, you tremendous nob.

>>44986958
No, the Clones defended the Empire from the Jedi.

They protected the man who destroyed the Republic, Emperor Palpatine.

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>>44984207
>accusing Star Trek of not having representation for muslims
So what, Jordanians don't count?

>>44986999
Palpatine didn't become Emperor until after the Wars were finished, when he gave the go ahead for Order 66 he was still the Chancellor
That's why the clones went along with it, they genuinely believed that the Jedi had just tried to pull a coup d'etat on the Senate

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>>44986775

I'm so glad Hollywood will never taint Dune with focus-testing and a soulless cash-in.

>>44986987
>The leader of the Republic called the shots *through the separatist leader*
Dude, get a grip.

>After they'd already stood trial for their crimes and gotten off within the Republic.
Doesn't matter, the republic learned of the clones well after they learned of the droids AND the droids had joined the seppos' army.

>>44986996
>if three of the largest kajidics wanted to fuck up a planet, there would be no organization in the galaxy that could possibly stop them
Again, implying implications. Any planet with a decent army would just have declared martial law and used the army against them, and top kek at a bunch of robbers and smugglers having the firepower to oppose that.
Do remember that the criminals didn't *attack* Mandalore, they went on a crime rampage. It was literally a police emergency, and Satine's government was so weak she couldn't answer something well below the threat level of warfare, again because of her downright criminal pacifist policies.

>>44987056
And yet Order 66 is why he was able to become Emperor and destroy the Republic.

They went along with it because that's their programming.

>>44987059

You're forgetting that Brian Herbert still lives and could probably sell out.

>>44987059
>Leto played by a black guy
>Paul played by an Asian
>all the Fremen are Inuit
>Vlad Harkonnen is the only white male
just as frank herbert intended

>>44987056

>That's why the clones went along with it, they genuinely believed that the Jedi had just tried to pull a coup d'etat on the Senate

Sadly, that's not the reason.

You wanna know what it was?

A chip in their heads.

Yep.

>>44987066
>through
Not through. He just called the shots as Darth Sidious.

>well after
No, Kenobi tells them about the Clone Army first.

Then he finds out about the droids after following Jango to Mustafar.

>>44987118
Not entirely their programming, the clones were genuinely convinced that Palpatine was telling them the truth
And there's a substantial gap between executing Order 66 and forming the Empire
More than enough for the issue to get clouded in a Force Vision. All Sifo-Dyas saw was an army defending the Republic, and that's what the Clones delivered

>>44986881

Thanks for the reply. I'll look into both.

>>44987161
Yes, entirely their programming. They had chips in their heads.

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>>44987125

Brian Herbert has been compromising his father's work for years, but thankfully Dune is pretty much unfilmable. A 40 million dollar movie that only made 30 mil back will never get a second chance.

>>44987137

The Fremen are a positive depiction of Islam, no need to break what's already good.

>>44987182

>Brian Herbert has been compromising his father's work for years, but thankfully Dune is pretty much unfilmable. A 40 million dollar movie that only made 30 mil back will never get a second chance.

Clearly, they're going to turn into a trilogy for the first book alone.

>>44987182
>no need to break what's already good
>in a thread about a franchise replacing a half-Maori with a black guy for muh diversity

Talking about space politics to this much of a degree is fool-hearty guys. They're just there to loosely justify a story.

>>44987144
I thought the Bio chips were just insurance, to enforce compliance with the contingency orders?

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>>44987198

I think that two books for the first dune novel, and a movie for dune messiah could work.

But no one is going to take a risk like that ever again.

>>44987236
Pretty much, but it's also fun to discuss, and not much else is getting talked, but I'll bow out if people want to talk about something else Star Wars.

>>44987249

A good soldier follows orders.

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>>44987253

Two movies, I mean

>>44987205
>replacing a half-Maori with a black guy
What?

>>44987249
No the chips completely took over their minds. It's why Rex, Gregor and Wolffe avoided that, since they removed the chips after the Fives arc.

I love this

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RhKfFhpIjo

>>44987266
Boba Fett is going to be played by a black guy in the upcoming Boba Fett movie.

>>44987295
What the fuck did I just listen to? Why did you just waste a minute of my life trying to decipher this horse shit?

>>44987305
Source?

>>44987335

>not recognizing the dulcet tones of Jedi Rocks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jzZOgLH4KU

>>44987148
>Not through.
Yes through, since Jango was in Dooku's payroll.

>No, Kenobi tells them about the Clone Army first.
Kenobi finds a new and massive droid factory on Geonosis, but the trade federation army joined the seppos when the trade fed joined the seppos, meaning at its founding.

>>44987305
According to who, exactly?
Because I've googled that shit and there's nothing but speculation so far

>>44987366
How did the Hutts not get offed by evolution?

>>44987413
They're like, though as fuck and on average smarter than sentient average. Plus they had a legit military empire early on, so they must be good fighter when they're young and not yet fat.

>>44987413

The crime lords that most of the galaxy sees are the apex of their species.

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>>44987413

>>44987413
They ate anything that bothered them!

But, they also got into space pretty early, they're insanely long lived and that sort of puts those complicated, long term plans and contingencies into a whole new perspective. Especially when you're almost prepared to wait for someone you cant beat, dies of old age or you can look at some type of patience strategy of waiting for the perfect moment to fuck them up.

>>44987059
>The Planet called Dune
But it's name is Arrakis

So I'm running a Force and Destiny game, and my players have managed to magnificently crash their old Lambda Shuttle.

It's been about five sessions so far, so I thought it was about time for them to get something a bit fancier, but I don't really want to give them something they'd actually want like a YT-1300 or a Decimator.

Have you guys got any recommendations? I thought of maybe a G-9 Rigger, but they'd probably think it was worse than what they had, which is partially true.

>>44987608

Arrakis is also called Dune.

>>44987642
What's the campaign about? You rebels? Independent operators? Running from the empire?
Knowing would help recommendations.

>>44984951
Is the shell of a man Jango?

>>44987449
>>44987470
>>44987586
I'm talking about on their home planet. Any sort of apex predator would have a fucking field day with them. Unlike humans, they can't use their intelligence nearly as effectively because they are fat as fuck.

And it still doesn't explain why there has never been a galactic pogrom against the race that is literally the Nazi depiction of Jews.

>>44987488
okay....

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>>44987689

Yep.

But at the time, he was considered Mandalorian, whereas nowadays he is not.

>>44984207
I spent a lot of time in the middle east fighting in the damn wars there, sometimes its just nice to have fantasy entertainment without any political agenda and for a lot of years, a bit of escapism into various stuff like Star Wars is a happy place for me. It'd be sad to see it go down a shitty path of just having to cater to topical opinions and events, whereas it'd have a much better longevity to simply find its own place as an art/media for what it is.
Realise there's a lot of historical parallels that Star Wars has drawn on loosely, but its never addressed them directly and simply implied.

>>44987778
Hutts are the Italian mob on steroids. Getting rid of them on a galactic scale would be like pulling teeth. Also despite being notorious, they're still one out of millions of species. You now have Pykes and such which means more races out there aren't unlike the Hutts.

>>44987642
>but I don't really want to give them something they'd actually want like a YT-1300
What exactly is wrong with giving them a 1300? It's one of the most common ships in the galaxy and is basically equal or worse than the Lambda in every way except for hardpoints.

>>44987778
>Any sort of apex predator would have a fucking field day with them.
Well you say that based on how they look, but the authors imply that they're competent fighters. Their skin is though as fuck, they can eat anything smaller than them, they're strong, they're smart, they're big. What more do you want? We didn't need to solo tigers to come to rule our planet, why would you expect the hutts to do better?

>And it still doesn't explain why there has never been a galactic pogrom against the race that is literally the Nazi depiction of Jews.
Because they own their own slice of galaxy and have a kickass navy since before the republic existed. The republic would literally need to go full clone war on them to defeat them, nevermind pogrom them. Nevermind that like all crime syndicates, they have their fingers in business and governments, keeping people from attacking them.

>>44987642
Make your own ship up. It'll feel a lot more personal for the group, and stats aren't that hard when using other ships as a basis.

>>44987664
Ah right sorry.

Basically they were contracted staff for an imperial archaeologist. They went into an old tomb, where they found a jedi holocron. So you had a hired pilot, 2 bodyguards, the imperial archaeologist and a medical doctor. When the imperial reported his findings back, an inquisitor was sent after the team, they managed to escape. They are being hunted by the inquisitor, and whilst the one imperial is no-longer employed by the empire, the inquisitor has kept quiet about their discovery as to cover up his failure.

The overall plot at the moment is them trying to find a jedi temple where they could learn, and coming to terms with the fact their lives will 'never be the same again'. And eventually the inquisitor will become a bit less useless and a bit more sith.

The two temples they've gone to have been occupied, one by wild animals and the other by pirates, who were shooting at the shuttle before it crashed. Which has left them on Dantooine, needing to find a way off, and given their panic when they faced the pirates I doubt they'll try and steal one from them.

>>44987875
Because I want them to aspire to bigger and better things. If I go and give them the Millennium Falcon, they're never going to want anything better.

>>44985470
Confident, Cunning, with a little Humor and a strong desire to do the right thing.

This is before he fights the Mandalorians, right?

>>44987642
Good old ILH-KK Citadel-Class Freighter
Bit pricier and not a common ship, but its tough, full of guns and can be quite a monster with a decent crew. Also has a big tractor beam in it which is quite nice for 'hostile acquisitions'

>>44987778
>Any sort of apex predator would have a fucking field day with them.
In Legends, they have the Hutts as uneatable because of their sweat and mucus causing animals who eat them to spit them ourt in disgust. And predators tend to learn fast what is bad to eat.

>>44987938
Then don't. Give them a rusty shitheap pulled for cheap out of Honest Antilles's Ship Emporium.

>>44987945
Yup.

>>44987938
>They are being hunted by the inquisitor
>If I go and give them the Millennium Falcon, they're never going to want anything better
Have them stole a good imperial ship. So they'll have something good, but want to replace it to avoid pursuit. Also give them something they can't improve.

>>44987945
>>44987998
Well he isn't Revan but the Revanchist

>>44987955
I might use this as an option for them if they're brave enough to steal a ship from the pirates rather than buying one somewhere else.

I guess I'll offer them a G-9 if they want something dirt cheap and a Ghtroc 720 if they splash out a bit more.

>>44986987
The only reason Amidala was going to be killed was because the Trade Federation demanded her death as part of the conditions of their Alliance you colossal idiot.

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>>44988319

Is that legal?

>>44986849

Saga is actually really well thought out, it's pretty much a DND reskin, but they've cut all the fat from 3.5 and left a really elegant system that just works.
It's pretty much DND 3.75 but better than any 3 clone ever was.

>>44987998
>>44988036
If he's got Alek with him, the two will be close friends.

Not much else to say honestly.

>>44988361
Nope.

>>44988443
The Revanchist actually has some unique mechanics (I'm GMing) The Revanchist will remember the Mandalorian Wars after going into enough combat (I'll explain if anyone cares)

>Codename Fatman
Built an atomic bomb when he was ten years old LITTLE BOY GEDDIT, I'M A GENIUS - Kojima
10 year old somehow having the resources and technical skills to build a functioning atomic bomb
No. Just no.
I put up with a lot of shit in the media I consume, but no, we're not going Jimmy Fucking Neutron here. No.

>>44989084
You should see the cut characters from the REST of Dead Cell

>>44989084

Yeah, at some point Kojima's bosses stop being cheesy action movie villains and become cheesy action movie villain parodies. If you're doing them in numbered order, just wait until you hit The Pain.

>>44989233
>not liking the Fear's bee bee gun

>>44989233
Isn't he COVERED IN BEES?
>>44989186
Oh lord.

>>44989269
The PAIN's bee bee gun, rather.
The Fear just kinda hops around and looks weird.

>>44989289

Yes, his power is BEES

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I'm sure it's been asked a thousand times but does anyone know of an upload of Saga Edition that doesn't require you to make a paid account to download it all?

>>44989233
>>44989269
>>44989289
>>44989317
>>44989376
Eh, I'd say that the Cobras aren't any more over-the-top then say psycho mantis or Vulcan Raven

>>44988361
I will make it legal!

>>44989497
The difference is that the Cobras are all explicitly supernatural/magical.
Dead Cell are all NANOMACHINES, SON. Yes, even Vamp.
This makes Dead Cell a lot harder to swallow. I can accept that a dude has magical control over bees.
But if you try and explain your crazy bosses' crazy powers with pseudoscience, it just raises too many questions..

Is KOTOR 2 actually better than the first one?

I liked the fact that the light side was objectively better in the first one. It didn't really feel forced when you consider that the dark side is fueled by fear and weakness, and that the real meaning of strength comes when you do what is right. I also liked that it wasn't always easy to do the right thing (like Sunry's trial)

Is the second like that, or is it full of juvenile pop-psychology about how the jedi are really evil?

>>44989588
Vamp is the only one with nano's, Fortune just has that weird electromagnetic box thing And even the final cutscene implies it might be a natural ability the box supplements
Fatman is just a dude who's good with explosives
4 is when everything goes full "NANOMACHINES, SON". Then we go back in time for 5 and have "PARASITES, BOSS", which when you think about are just early biological prototypes of nanomachines

>>44989687
>Then we go back in time for 5 and have "PARASITES, BOSS", which when you think about are just early biological prototypes of nanomachines
To be fair, in 5 there are only three different guys with Parasite powers and they're explained pretty well.

And then there's Psycho Mantis who continues to be weird psychic bullshit.

>>44989632
Play it (with the restored content mod) and decide for yourself.

>>44989687
I more was using "NANOMACHINES, SON" as a stand-in for any and all crazy Metal Gear superscience.

>>44989723
Except for the fact 5 tries to retroactively explain 3, by saying that the Cobras were all parasites themselves. And then just leaves Volgin and the Third Boy himself as unexplained

>>44989632
Yes and no. From a gameplay perspective it is better. The story is like it or loathe it. Kreia is both brilliant and fucking awful at the same time. The only way you can find out if you like it is if you play it.

>>44989851

New thread

>>44989834
>Except for the fact 5 tries to retroactively explain 3, by saying that the Cobras were all parasites themselves.
The only person in 3 explained via parasites was The End.

>>44989588
>But if you try and explain your crazy bosses' crazy powers with pseudoscience, it just raises too many questions..
Yes, I agree 100%. Kojima kind of beefed it by doing that in MGS 2. (Since the answer to "when will kojima learn?" Is "never", he repeats this mistake in MGS V with " PARASITES, SON")

>>44989913
Explicitly, yes, but the tapes imply that code talked was also given body parts from the other cobras

>>44989913
I thought that Code Talker looked at the bodyparts from The Pain and he also had parasites.

>>44990034
The Pain had a symbiotic relationship with his bees, I don't think it was the same parasites that The End had
>>44990000
Yes, but he only found anything useful in the remains of The End
Nice quads by the way