Epee is the sword of masters, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for people who can dedicate themselves to that blade. It takes incredible skill and patience that makes it by far the most difficult of the three to learn.
With that out of the way, Saber is more fun and about a hundred times cooler, especially since it looks faster and more dynamic.
In a fencing match with friends who have thrown most rules to the side in favor of decisive hits and fun? Saber. A cutting edge and enough weight to force the epee out of the way as needed, and the curved hand guard for blocking and punching.
>>44952240 The classic order is foil>saber>epee. At my club, foil had actually fallen out of fashion and it was mostly saber with a couple epee, though it was a rather young club with few people older than their mid twenties.
>>44953213 Foil developed out of a training tool. Sabre is meant to mimic actual sabres, and epee just means sword but is more similar to a rapier. Strictly speaking, none of them are good for combat because fencing is a sport far removed from actual violence. If you had to transfer skills over, though, I would pick Sabre, with epee a reasonable second choice, and completely avoid foil.
>>44952445 >>44952240 The difference is that foil requires knowledge of the rules of right-of-way and target zones, which are supposed to simulate the effects of being in a real life fight to the death but are mostly nonsense. Some people believe that starting with foil teaches you good habits that you can then carry over into épée, while others believe that starting with épée makes more sense because épée is slowest and has the fewest weird things to learn. That's what it comes down to.
I use chainsaws regularly as part of my job. I can guran-fucking-tee you that chainsaws are not to be trusted. They are the most finicky sons of bitches I have ever had the displeasure of maintaining. It it's not the bar getting clogged, the chain's dull or a link breaks. If that's all clear, the air filter's clogged, the bar oiler is clogged, or the fuel filter is clogged. If those aren't acting up, then the bastard is overheating, the timing got fucked, or the spark plug is fouled up. By the time that's all fixed, you can run it for all of a few minutes before the fuel or bar oil runs dry.
For the few brief minutes the bastard thing is running properly, it is more likely to fuck your shit up than the person near you unless you manage to drop a tree on someone. I've seen people who's lives were saved by chaps, and I've seen a man who lost his damn leg thanks to one simple mistake. I work with three individuals who've had the damn things kick back on an unexpected knot, and get nice deep gouges on their cheecks, chins, and shoulders.
Even with all the gore it can cause you, the damndest thing is that they are completely ineffective against anyone with metal armor of any sort.
In short, chainsaws and all things inspired by them, are shit tier weapons.
>>44952025 Like, using a sport weapon in a real fight? Sport épées have a button on the tip, and none of them have anything resembling an edge. I guess a saber, maybe, because it's essentially fighting with an automotive dipstick.
>>44953558 >all the gore it can cause you Chainsaws are also terrible weapons aside from all that. You know how hard you have to press it to get it to cut down a tree? You still have to push that hard to cut anything else, and people will object. They'll also jump around more when you're trying to cut something soft.
>>44952025 Sabre if your talking about real weapon combat usefulness. It can be used in melee, from horseback, or boarding ships. Sabre or epee if you want to kill a man in a duel. Foil only if you want to learn for olympics or something. >>44953901 Lol yeah right. Backsword is mastersword.
>>44954029 >>44954380 They're still weapons. For one thing, even with all the safety precautions, they still wind up hurting and even killing people. For another, you seem to be wanting to try and redefine what a weapon is in a bit of a sideways attempt at mocking the sport. I'll finish with saying that a baseball bat is considered a weapon, and my brother back in highschool was actually arrested and charged for carrying one (on his way to a gang fight).
>>44953477 A lot of people make fun of right-of-way, but in practice it really isn't as nonsensical as it may appear. It demands that in order for an attack to be successful, it must be made with a degree of intent that would otherwise not be required.
The best way I can explain it is with Kendo and Free-fighting. In Kendo, attacks are practically ritualized, having to vocalize your intended target, and your blow requiring a certain degree of force and made with a formalized motion. While these all help to reduce any frivolous flick attacks and the whole "fan-style" of sword play altogether, they result in a somewhat subjective scoring system, requiring three judges to interpret each hit, and it's very rare for any bout to be judged with unanimous agreement, just like boxing.
On the other hand, free-fighting, like what you can find in most LARPS, might have a few rules here and there, but usually the law of "you get touched with the weapon, it's called a hit" is what everything boils down to. And, if you've ever fought under these rules, the best approach is simply to flail at your opponent, since any clever attack can usually be replied with a flimsy counterattack, and any confrontation simply becomes a mutual exchange of damage unless both players agree to essentially "perform."
Right of way falls in between these two extremes, and while it doesn't completely eliminate "gentle" attacks and reciprocal fighting, it is considerably easier to implement and agree upon.
Well the épée and the foil are both ultimately derived from the smallsword. Which is an inferior weapon to the military sabre.
So all things being equal with the proper versions of all three I would give it to sabre. Assuming they all know how to actually use the weapon properly and don't use it like the sport version which is a good way to get killed.
>>44958090 But if some guy comes at me in a dark alley swinging a tennis racket and all I have is a cricket bat, that asshole's getting his skull caved in. OP said nothing about sports or fair play, you don't get to add your own extra rules to the question and then act like you're right.
>>44958134 >OP said nothing about sports or fair play, you don't get to add your own extra rules to the question and then act like you're right. He said nothing about alley ways or fighting, either. You don't get to ad extra rules to the question and then act like you're right.
Besides, even OP isn't stupid enough to consider the question of which fencing blade is most effective in a fight. They're both so ineffective as to render the question moot (i.e. "they all suck").
>>44957607 >baseball bat is a weapon Just kill yourself. Sure you can use it as a weapon, but that doesn't mean it's meant as a practical weapon, though honestly a baseball bat would make a better weapon than a fencing weapon. These fencing 'weapons' only existed for training with real people swords. If you fought someone with one of these against say a arming sword you wouldn't be able to block, if you fought someone with a rapier you not only would be able to block you couldn't even get close enough to hit them ect.
>>44958281 I'd argue they were mostly just for show, even more than duelling. And when duelling did take place, *they* were for show, too. Mostly non-lethal to first blood deals. Easy to carry defense was mostly, well, revolvers. Sabres, on the other hand, were definitely military.
>>44957607 Baseball bat ain't a weapon. It's a sports equipment not meant to kill anyone.
Sure, you can USE it as a poor mans club, but that doesn't make it a weapon.
Similarly, you could try to kill someone with an epee or saber or foil, but give the opponent an actual weapon and I'll put my money on them instead, regardless of their comparative skill level to the sportsman.
You also have the Hema way. Only count lethal/disabling blow. Counter blow in the same second count, so be sure to still secure your ass when you attack. Carry enough protection and dull the blade as they don't make "real" lethal and disabling blow.
There, you have the middle ground.
Althought I would say that the main problem with that is that the protections give weight to peoples simulating an armorless combat. Can't really change that.
>>44958361 It's a sharp pointy bit for sure, but it was never meant to do a lot of damage, so getting stabbed by it wouldn't always deter someone, and that is if they couldn't parry it/grab it because it had no sharp edges.
>>44952025 Sabre was a cut-and-thrust weapon and used in actual combat outside of duels and streetfights, though really it was mostly duels and streetfights anyway because by that time firearms became common and most people didn't use one-handed swords, they used muskets protected by pike formations.
Epee was thrusting only, used only in duels and streetfights, but had a w-shaped blade which left a jagged wound that shitty renaissance medicine couldn't treat well and would probably kill you even if you won the duel.
Foil is the modern sport version of a smallsword, of which was used in duels and streetfights all over the place because they were fashionable and suited for close-quarters urban fighting.
There was also the Colichemarde, which was a smallsword with a wider blade from the hilt to halfway up the blade to give it a cutting edge as well as blade support and durability.
Then if you're Spain, you kept the rapier around until the 18th century because the only reason the rest of Europe got rid of it was because smallswords were more fashionable. The rapier was a cut-and-thrust weapon like the saber, but had a wider blade.
Source: Years of sport fencing, HEMA, and owning 3/5 of the swords listed.
>>44958234 >>44958244 Why're you assuming that you need to use these swords for a fight for your life? This is clearly a question of which would be better to use in a formalized duel, which is what all of these swords were meant for.
>>44957607 I dunno, I think épée has found an elegant solution that works and isn't mired in interpretation. The scoring button on the tip of an épée only goes off if a certain amount of pressure is applied to it, and the weapon is rigid enough that you can't flail it around like a dipstick. So if you score a point it's either because you attacked with a modicum of force or because the opponent lunged right into you, which should still count.
>>44958263 >but that doesn't mean it's meant as a practical weapon
Nice moving the goal posts.
Now, the epee is hard to seriously injure another fencer with if used appropriately, but it shouldn't be underestimated. Even with all the safety precautions, it is still a long strip of metal that can be whipped about rather quickly, and injuries are not uncommon even with the full safety gear.
And that's the safest of the three, with sabers dealing cuts and bruises even through the protective gear on a regular basis, and in the past even resulting in fatalities within the sport despite all the precautions. These are blades designed to endure a lot of force and clashing, while being as fast as they possibly can be designed to be. They are not toys by any measure.
I agree that they're not designed to hurt or kill. If anything, they were designed for the exact opposite, to be as safe as possible, despite simultaneously being designed for speed and durability. But, we're still talking about an item that can be used to seriously injure another fellow human with a certain degree of ease and unless a fair amount of precautions are taken, and I'm quite willing to use that as a definition for a "weapon."
I'm sorry I triggered you because you think I'm arguing that a guy with a sport saber is going to win against a person with a sword designed to kill people. Though, I think that against a baseball bat a saber would actually stand a good chance, especially because I think you might be underestimating the length and speed of a saber, as well as its durability. Blocking with the blade may not be an intelligent option, even if the base of the blade is more durable than it might appear, but the guard is quite solid, and if worst comes to worst serves quite well for simply bludgeoning people, as my friend who has accidentally knocked out other fencers by slamming it into their helmets can attest to.
>>44958482 Depends on the time period. Rapiers were used for over three centuries, so the standard for what a 'rapier' was changed. General principle was that the earlier the year, the wider the blade. For instance, my 16th century German rapier has a wider blade than any military saber, though not by a whole lot. The ones used in 17th and 18th century Spain on the other hand were about the same as your typical saber.
The thing with swords is what defines X sword as Y class is a little arbitrary, in that a longish saber is about the same length as a smallish rapier, etc. On average though, sabers were usually a bit shorter though.
>>44958490 They were used, right, but just because it was used doesn't mean that was its primary function. Back in the times when people were still packing smallswords and shit like that, sabers weren't really used in military engagements to anywhere near the effect of cannons and firearms and whatnot. Absolutely, cavalrymen and officers and more than a few naval soldiers had them. That doesn't mean they weren't more commonly used for killing in streetfights and duels.
>>44952025 Of the three as they exist today for sport fencing, probably the saber. It's the only one approaching rigid enough to be really dangerous in the thrust, and none of them are particularly sharp.
> The rapier was a cut-and-thrust weapon like the saber, but had a wider blade.
I dunno about really any of that.
I don't doubt you could find individual examples that make this true (for instance an early or transitional rapier and a thrusting saber), but on average I'd say a rapier is significantly more thrust than cut, and a saber is significantly more cut than thrust, which fits nicely with the saber on average having a somewhat wider blade.
That's especially true if you look at the width of the business end of the blade. Most rapiers lose about 70% of their cross sectional area by around halfway down the blade. Sabers... don't.
>>44959010 >>44958994 Sabers were built more for cutting in mind, and rapiers were built more for thrusting in mind, that's absolutely true.
However, both weapons were serviceable for use in both cutting and thrusting. In the saber's case, it's because really anything with a pointy bit can be a thrusting weapon, and in the rapier's case it was popular in a time when smaller and lighter swords were becoming more popular but before people wanted to give up a cutting edge entirely.
>>44959159 > However, both weapons were serviceable for use in both cutting and thrusting
Normally I see C&T used in the context of a weapon relatively adept at both, which is why I wasn't sure that was the right thing to say. If you just meant that technically it can inflict cutting and thrusting wounds, regardless of their efficacy, then sure: both are cut and thrust weapons with that provisional meaning.
That said, I would not want to try to cut someone into submission with even a transitional rapier. T-shirt armor is real in that context, let me tell you.
Well that depends a lot on the person and the context. At a minimum you can still flay open their forehead and blind them with blood or sever fingers. Things like that will make a lot of people surrender or run away in some situations.
In a real fight you can use it to weaken/distract them if you need an opening to stab them with the pointy bit.
and for the many who don't seem to know what a rapier is. Even later period version of rapiers like in pic were still perfectly viable as a cutting weapon. Yes they were more stabby, but not to the exclusion of cutting.
Nigga that is a completely different weapon, it is a epee in the sense that epee is the French word for sword, because it was the sword type popular in France at the time it happens to be the SWORD that the English SPORTS EQUIPMENT epee was based off but they are not the same thing.
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