Sabre, foil or épée: What's the most effective?

gun

>>44952025
Certainly not the one that isn't sharp and is in fact made to bend easily

>>44952039
/thread

Epee is the sword of masters, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for people who can dedicate themselves to that blade. It takes incredible skill and patience that makes it by far the most difficult of the three to learn.

With that out of the way, Saber is more fun and about a hundred times cooler, especially since it looks faster and more dynamic.

Foil because point control.

Sauce: Fencer

>>44952102
Epee is the beginner's weapon.

>>44952135
You're thinking of foil. Foil is the beginner weapon.

>>44952025
In a real fight? Couldn't tell you.

In a fencing match with friends who have thrown most rules to the side in favor of decisive hits and fun?
Saber.
A cutting edge and enough weight to force the epee out of the way as needed, and the curved hand guard for blocking and punching.

>>44952202
No, most people start with Epee.

I don't know if that's the way it's 'intended' but almost all fencers I know that didn't start at an club dedicated exclusively to one of the three started with epee.

File: canadian blood.jpg (125KB, 540x540px) Image search: [Google]

125KB, 540x540px

>>44952039
>>44952072
Pipe bomb.

>>44952272
I love signs like that.

File: an obscenely dainty smallsword.jpg (141KB, 1333x2000px) Image search: [Google]

141KB, 1333x2000px

>>44952025
Effective at what? Saber is going to be a hell of a lot more effective than the other two at slashing, but a more rigid blade like an epee will btfo the other two at thrusting.

Specifics, OP.

File: 1408892550642.jpg (151KB, 862x541px) Image search: [Google]

151KB, 862x541px

>>44952025
ZWEEEEEEEHAAAAAAANDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>>44952341
Killing.

>>44952240
The classic order is foil>saber>epee. At my club, foil had actually fallen out of fashion and it was mostly saber with a couple epee, though it was a rather young club with few people older than their mid twenties.

File: flat,550x550,075,f.u4.jpg (75KB, 426x550px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 426x550px

>>44952412
>giantdads wetdream

File: [VVVRRRRRR intensifies].png (18KB, 77x476px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 77x476px

>>44952527
Accept chainsaw as substitute when 6 feet of heavy steel isn't immediately handy.

>>44952025
Start with foil, then do saber. For added fun, ken/iai-do/jutsu and/or escrima/kali, and you can consider yourself ready to fight with swords.

>>44952444
Killing in what context? Pitched battle? One-on-one duel? Armor or no armor?

>>44952240
My club started everyone with foil and Epee where the dedicated competition fencers

Correct me if I'm wrong,as I have no idea, but wasn't saber the one originally used for actual combat and foil and epee made for dueling/sport?

Wouldn't that make the saber somewhat less elegant and refined, but ultimately the better tool?

>>44953213
Foil developed out of a training tool. Sabre is meant to mimic actual sabres, and epee just means sword but is more similar to a rapier. Strictly speaking, none of them are good for combat because fencing is a sport far removed from actual violence. If you had to transfer skills over, though, I would pick Sabre, with epee a reasonable second choice, and completely avoid foil.

>>44952445
>>44952240
The difference is that foil requires knowledge of the rules of right-of-way and target zones, which are supposed to simulate the effects of being in a real life fight to the death but are mostly nonsense. Some people believe that starting with foil teaches you good habits that you can then carry over into épée, while others believe that starting with épée makes more sense because épée is slowest and has the fewest weird things to learn. That's what it comes down to.

>>44952025
Buick.

>>44952564
Forester here.

I use chainsaws regularly as part of my job. I can guran-fucking-tee you that chainsaws are not to be trusted. They are the most finicky sons of bitches I have ever had the displeasure of maintaining. It it's not the bar getting clogged, the chain's dull or a link breaks. If that's all clear, the air filter's clogged, the bar oiler is clogged, or the fuel filter is clogged. If those aren't acting up, then the bastard is overheating, the timing got fucked, or the spark plug is fouled up. By the time that's all fixed, you can run it for all of a few minutes before the fuel or bar oil runs dry.

For the few brief minutes the bastard thing is running properly, it is more likely to fuck your shit up than the person near you unless you manage to drop a tree on someone. I've seen people who's lives were saved by chaps, and I've seen a man who lost his damn leg thanks to one simple mistake. I work with three individuals who've had the damn things kick back on an unexpected knot, and get nice deep gouges on their cheecks, chins, and shoulders.

Even with all the gore it can cause you, the damndest thing is that they are completely ineffective against anyone with metal armor of any sort.

In short, chainsaws and all things inspired by them, are shit tier weapons.

>>44952025
Like, using a sport weapon in a real fight? Sport épées have a button on the tip, and none of them have anything resembling an edge. I guess a saber, maybe, because it's essentially fighting with an automotive dipstick.

>>44952025
Armor

File: sidesword_late_16th_century___3_by_danelli_armouries-d6c2q8t.jpg (163KB, 774x1032px) Image search: [Google]

163KB, 774x1032px

Sidesword master race reporting in.

>>44952025
>>44952444

OP none of the things you listed are weapons, you're naming sports equipment.

All of which are designed for the express purpose of NOT killing people.

>>44952135
>>44952202
>weapon

They're sports equipment.

>>44953558
>all the gore it can cause you
Chainsaws are also terrible weapons aside from all that.
You know how hard you have to press it to get it to cut down a tree? You still have to push that hard to cut anything else, and people will object.
They'll also jump around more when you're trying to cut something soft.

File: monkey-island1[1].jpg (235KB, 1335x596px) Image search: [Google]

235KB, 1335x596px

>>44952025
Insults.

File: 1444446799942.jpg (30KB, 800x500px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 800x500px

>>44952025
Sabre if your talking about real weapon combat usefulness. It can be used in melee, from horseback, or boarding ships. Sabre or epee if you want to kill a man in a duel.
Foil only if you want to learn for olympics or something.
>>44953901
Lol yeah right. Backsword is mastersword.

>>44952025
Estoc.

>>44953558
This guy understands.

>>44954029
>>44954380
They're still weapons. For one thing, even with all the safety precautions, they still wind up hurting and even killing people. For another, you seem to be wanting to try and redefine what a weapon is in a bit of a sideways attempt at mocking the sport. I'll finish with saying that a baseball bat is considered a weapon, and my brother back in highschool was actually arrested and charged for carrying one (on his way to a gang fight).

>>44953477
A lot of people make fun of right-of-way, but in practice it really isn't as nonsensical as it may appear. It demands that in order for an attack to be successful, it must be made with a degree of intent that would otherwise not be required.

The best way I can explain it is with Kendo and Free-fighting. In Kendo, attacks are practically ritualized, having to vocalize your intended target, and your blow requiring a certain degree of force and made with a formalized motion. While these all help to reduce any frivolous flick attacks and the whole "fan-style" of sword play altogether, they result in a somewhat subjective scoring system, requiring three judges to interpret each hit, and it's very rare for any bout to be judged with unanimous agreement, just like boxing.

On the other hand, free-fighting, like what you can find in most LARPS, might have a few rules here and there, but usually the law of "you get touched with the weapon, it's called a hit" is what everything boils down to. And, if you've ever fought under these rules, the best approach is simply to flail at your opponent, since any clever attack can usually be replied with a flimsy counterattack, and any confrontation simply becomes a mutual exchange of damage unless both players agree to essentially "perform."

Right of way falls in between these two extremes, and while it doesn't completely eliminate "gentle" attacks and reciprocal fighting, it is considerably easier to implement and agree upon.

>>44952025
Sabre. Obviously. Why is this a thread?

File: italianknightsxvcentury.jpg (656KB, 1339x900px) Image search: [Google]

656KB, 1339x900px

>>44952025
Spear

>>44957643
"Shotgun, cap gun, or water pistol: what's the most effective?"

>>44952025
I think I'll take the one that's actually a weapon, and not a piece of sports equipment.

>>44952025
Saber is the only one you can look remotely cool using. Foil is the easiest to use. Epee is for snobs.

Well the épée and the foil are both ultimately derived from the smallsword. Which is an inferior weapon to the military sabre.

So all things being equal with the proper versions of all three I would give it to sabre. Assuming they all know how to actually use the weapon properly and don't use it like the sport version which is a good way to get killed.

File: sh2394.jpg (14KB, 650x309px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 650x309px

Der Langes Schwert is the only option

>>44958005
*Das Lange Schwert

>>44952025
All of them, you fucking idiot.

Because you only use like against like.

>>44958026
No, his sword self-identify as male so he can compensate for his substandard dick.

>>44958058
Then what about those zweihander guys?

>>44958048
I'll be sure to point that out next time somebody tries to mug me with a gun and I only have my knife on me.

>>44958069
Spare a thought for the poor buggers who use pikes.

File: Sadfroghelm.png (572KB, 585x628px) Image search: [Google]

572KB, 585x628px

>>44958079
You mean when someone tries to play a game of tennis with you and you've only got a cricket bat.

Wait, no, you both use a tennis racket.

>>44958090
But if some guy comes at me in a dark alley swinging a tennis racket and all I have is a cricket bat, that asshole's getting his skull caved in. OP said nothing about sports or fair play, you don't get to add your own extra rules to the question and then act like you're right.

>>44958134
>OP said nothing about sports or fair play, you don't get to add your own extra rules to the question and then act like you're right.
He said nothing about alley ways or fighting, either. You don't get to ad extra rules to the question and then act like you're right.

Besides, even OP isn't stupid enough to consider the question of which fencing blade is most effective in a fight. They're both so ineffective as to render the question moot (i.e. "they all suck").

>>44956613
Want to play? Steam fr3twork

>>44958163
>Besides, even OP isn't stupid enough...
You've clearly never met OP before.

>>44958187
Nigger no one is stupid enough to think that a tool people use against each other all the time as a sport with pretty minimal padding could be used as an actual weapon.

None of these, because these swords were never meant for actual fighting and anyone who tells you otherwise is an idiot or a liar.

>>44958234
Not even the swords they were derived from were for use in actual fighting, with the exception of sabre.

>>44957607
>baseball bat is a weapon
Just kill yourself. Sure you can use it as a weapon, but that doesn't mean it's meant as a practical weapon, though honestly a baseball bat would make a better weapon than a fencing weapon. These fencing 'weapons' only existed for training with real people swords. If you fought someone with one of these against say a arming sword you wouldn't be able to block, if you fought someone with a rapier you not only would be able to block you couldn't even get close enough to hit them ect.

>>44958244
True, though the swords they were based on were for "dueling" or as a easy to carry defense, like a snub-nosed revolver of modern times.

File: 1398481072002.jpg (109KB, 1200x672px) Image search: [Google]

109KB, 1200x672px

>>44958244
>actual fighting

Well you would be at a huge disadvantage against any actual sword but a smallsword would be more than sufficient to stop your typical ruffian with a knife. Assuming you know what to do with it.

>>44958281
I'd argue they were mostly just for show, even more than duelling. And when duelling did take place, *they* were for show, too. Mostly non-lethal to first blood deals. Easy to carry defense was mostly, well, revolvers. Sabres, on the other hand, were definitely military.

File: Smallsword.png (235KB, 763x357px) Image search: [Google]

235KB, 763x357px

>>44958303
>but a smallsword would be more than sufficient to stop your typical ruffian with a knife
I'd put them at equal. The smallsword's longer, but it's also really shit.

>>44952025
you can do everything with a sabre that a foil or epee can do, but the sabre has a sharpened edge unlike the other two. What do you think

>>44958309
By the time practical revolvers were common swords were already on the way out as something carried every day.

>>44958324
Well the length is the key, try to stab them before they get close and grab your shitty pointy stick.

>>44957607
Baseball bat ain't a weapon. It's a sports equipment not meant to kill anyone.

Sure, you can USE it as a poor mans club, but that doesn't make it a weapon.

Similarly, you could try to kill someone with an epee or saber or foil, but give the opponent an actual weapon and I'll put my money on them instead, regardless of their comparative skill level to the sportsman.

>>44957607

You also have the Hema way.
Only count lethal/disabling blow. Counter blow in the same second count, so be sure to still secure your ass when you attack.
Carry enough protection and dull the blade as they don't make "real" lethal and disabling blow.

There, you have the middle ground.

Althought I would say that the main problem with that is that the protections give weight to peoples simulating an armorless combat. Can't really change that.

>>44958361
It's a sharp pointy bit for sure, but it was never meant to do a lot of damage, so getting stabbed by it wouldn't always deter someone, and that is if they couldn't parry it/grab it because it had no sharp edges.

File: image.jpg (9KB, 250x196px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 250x196px

>>44957882
Water pistol is pretty effective if you're clever.

>>44958373
Why did I emphasize use. I should have emphasized can.

Fuck me, I'm out of this retarded thread.

>>44952025
Sabre was a cut-and-thrust weapon and used in actual combat outside of duels and streetfights, though really it was mostly duels and streetfights anyway because by that time firearms became common and most people didn't use one-handed swords, they used muskets protected by pike formations.

Epee was thrusting only, used only in duels and streetfights, but had a w-shaped blade which left a jagged wound that shitty renaissance medicine couldn't treat well and would probably kill you even if you won the duel.

Foil is the modern sport version of a smallsword, of which was used in duels and streetfights all over the place because they were fashionable and suited for close-quarters urban fighting.

There was also the Colichemarde, which was a smallsword with a wider blade from the hilt to halfway up the blade to give it a cutting edge as well as blade support and durability.

Then if you're Spain, you kept the rapier around until the 18th century because the only reason the rest of Europe got rid of it was because smallswords were more fashionable. The rapier was a cut-and-thrust weapon like the saber, but had a wider blade.

Source: Years of sport fencing, HEMA, and owning 3/5 of the swords listed.

>>44958234
>>44958244
Why're you assuming that you need to use these swords for a fight for your life? This is clearly a question of which would be better to use in a formalized duel, which is what all of these swords were meant for.

>>44958412
Which I already answered.

They're all effective. Like against like, faggot.

>>44957607
I dunno, I think épée has found an elegant solution that works and isn't mired in interpretation. The scoring button on the tip of an épée only goes off if a certain amount of pressure is applied to it, and the weapon is rigid enough that you can't flail it around like a dipstick. So if you score a point it's either because you attacked with a modicum of force or because the opponent lunged right into you, which should still count.

File: 1386318994591.jpg (92KB, 528x984px) Image search: [Google]

92KB, 528x984px

>>44958373
Even if they manage to stab you sport fencing teaches you to fight in an utterly suicidal way so you could still bash their skull in.

>>44958405
>wider

You mean longer.

>>44958412
Sabres are a military self defence weapon, sport sabre evolved out of the training weapon for military sabre.

>>44958405
You don't know a great deal about sabres. It was used predominantly in battle by cavalry, right up to WWI.

File: 0013729ece6b0a0e6a3437.jpg (18KB, 500x363px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 500x363px

>>44958263
>but that doesn't mean it's meant as a practical weapon

Nice moving the goal posts.

Now, the epee is hard to seriously injure another fencer with if used appropriately, but it shouldn't be underestimated. Even with all the safety precautions, it is still a long strip of metal that can be whipped about rather quickly, and injuries are not uncommon even with the full safety gear.

And that's the safest of the three, with sabers dealing cuts and bruises even through the protective gear on a regular basis, and in the past even resulting in fatalities within the sport despite all the precautions. These are blades designed to endure a lot of force and clashing, while being as fast as they possibly can be designed to be. They are not toys by any measure.

I agree that they're not designed to hurt or kill. If anything, they were designed for the exact opposite, to be as safe as possible, despite simultaneously being designed for speed and durability. But, we're still talking about an item that can be used to seriously injure another fellow human with a certain degree of ease and unless a fair amount of precautions are taken, and I'm quite willing to use that as a definition for a "weapon."

I'm sorry I triggered you because you think I'm arguing that a guy with a sport saber is going to win against a person with a sword designed to kill people. Though, I think that against a baseball bat a saber would actually stand a good chance, especially because I think you might be underestimating the length and speed of a saber, as well as its durability. Blocking with the blade may not be an intelligent option, even if the base of the blade is more durable than it might appear, but the guard is quite solid, and if worst comes to worst serves quite well for simply bludgeoning people, as my friend who has accidentally knocked out other fencers by slamming it into their helmets can attest to.

>>44958490
He is right though, most people involved in warfare had a musket or rifle once polearms finally went away.

Cavalry and officers were a minority of any army.

>>44958482
Depends on the time period. Rapiers were used for over three centuries, so the standard for what a 'rapier' was changed. General principle was that the earlier the year, the wider the blade. For instance, my 16th century German rapier has a wider blade than any military saber, though not by a whole lot. The ones used in 17th and 18th century Spain on the other hand were about the same as your typical saber.

The thing with swords is what defines X sword as Y class is a little arbitrary, in that a longish saber is about the same length as a smallish rapier, etc. On average though, sabers were usually a bit shorter though.

>>44958490
They were used, right, but just because it was used doesn't mean that was its primary function. Back in the times when people were still packing smallswords and shit like that, sabers weren't really used in military engagements to anywhere near the effect of cannons and firearms and whatnot. Absolutely, cavalrymen and officers and more than a few naval soldiers had them. That doesn't mean they weren't more commonly used for killing in streetfights and duels.

The development of Polish sabre is interesting, as the people loved dueling but didn't want the tacky business of dealing with being sued for accidentally killing their opponent.

>>44958374
Also, there's a lot of problems with some of the more modern HEMA groups' compromises, and most wind up resembling LARP fighting more than they do anything else.

>>44958373
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=429

If you can be charged with it in court as a deadly weapon, I think it's fair to call it a weapon.

>>44958393
Sure, but "clever + shotgun" would still beat "clever + water pistol".

>>44952025
Of the three as they exist today for sport fencing, probably the saber. It's the only one approaching rigid enough to be really dangerous in the thrust, and none of them are particularly sharp.

> The rapier was a cut-and-thrust weapon like the saber, but had a wider blade.

I dunno about really any of that.

I don't doubt you could find individual examples that make this true (for instance an early or transitional rapier and a thrusting saber), but on average I'd say a rapier is significantly more thrust than cut, and a saber is significantly more cut than thrust, which fits nicely with the saber on average having a somewhat wider blade.

That's especially true if you look at the width of the business end of the blade. Most rapiers lose about 70% of their cross sectional area by around halfway down the blade. Sabers... don't.

>>44958994
>>44958405
Sorry my last post quoted this guy but I was a dumb faggot and forgot to quote his post.

>>44959010
>>44958994
Sabers were built more for cutting in mind, and rapiers were built more for thrusting in mind, that's absolutely true.

However, both weapons were serviceable for use in both cutting and thrusting. In the saber's case, it's because really anything with a pointy bit can be a thrusting weapon, and in the rapier's case it was popular in a time when smaller and lighter swords were becoming more popular but before people wanted to give up a cutting edge entirely.

>>44959159
> However, both weapons were serviceable for use in both cutting and thrusting

Normally I see C&T used in the context of a weapon relatively adept at both, which is why I wasn't sure that was the right thing to say. If you just meant that technically it can inflict cutting and thrusting wounds, regardless of their efficacy, then sure: both are cut and thrust weapons with that provisional meaning.

That said, I would not want to try to cut someone into submission with even a transitional rapier. T-shirt armor is real in that context, let me tell you.

File: 1419810550094.jpg (59KB, 438x1216px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 438x1216px

>>44959314
>submission

Well that depends a lot on the person and the context. At a minimum you can still flay open their forehead and blind them with blood or sever fingers. Things like that will make a lot of people surrender or run away in some situations.

In a real fight you can use it to weaken/distract them if you need an opening to stab them with the pointy bit.

File: US_M18a1_claymore_mine.jpg (84KB, 504x435px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 504x435px

>>44952025
A Claymore

Lesbian sword

File: late_historical_period.png (263KB, 475x300px) Image search: [Google]

263KB, 475x300px

For people who think that epees were always useless, sporting equipment. have this pic

>>44961867

Zombies, get wrecked.

File: PD_2005_07_fig1-3.png (30KB, 308x200px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 308x200px

and for the many who don't seem to know what a rapier is.
Even later period version of rapiers like in pic were still perfectly viable as a cutting weapon. Yes they were more stabby, but not to the exclusion of cutting.

File: 1444501475514.jpg (284KB, 479x1281px) Image search: [Google]

284KB, 479x1281px

I don't seem to have many pics of the full blade, but you can see with this one, it's quite solid and good for cutting and parrying with.

Fencing:
Foil:
>only hit the torso, only with the tip of the blade, heavily governed by 'right of way' rules to decide when both attacks meet simultaneously.

Sabre:
>like foil, but includes the head in target area, still governed by right of way. Can use any part of the blade to make contact

Epee:
>first one to successfully shove their blade up their opponents ass wins

>>44961867

Nigga that is a completely different weapon, it is a epee in the sense that epee is the French word for sword, because it was the sword type popular in France at the time it happens to be the SWORD that the English SPORTS EQUIPMENT epee was based off but they are not the same thing.

>>44962738
yes that was the point i was making.
Have a cookie.

>>44952025
Saber considering those other two aren't war swords.

>>44963063
for a million time, if he say Sabre with foil and épées, he mean the sporting dildo, not the actual weapon.

And all fuckings swords are épées, too.

>>44963537
All swords are also a gladius by that logic.