Roll 3d6 6 times in order, use d20s vs abilities, for saving throws and 3e ability bonuses/penalties edition
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Hey /osr/ how much damage should falling rocks do?
Note I want it to be pretty deadly but not instant death against anyone caught in it.
Maybe something like 4d6? Average damage would be 14 which would kill any first level character, even a maxed warrior, but I feel like that may be too harsh. Maybe just 3d6?
Of course save to avoid it, or just avoid it ahead of time. I always give warnings before traps, just hints that they could be there is the idea.
Found nothing in 1e about it from a quick perusal, but BECMI comes to the rescue:
Rocks and other items can be dropped from an
altitude of 300' or less, using an attack roll of 16
or better (regardless of the target's normal armor
class). The damage depends on the size of the
flyer. For example, if a flying mount can carry a
man, the flyer may instead carry an equivalent
amount of encumbrance in rocks to inflict 2-12
points of damage to all within a 10' X 10' area
(one attack roll per victim).
this seems like a good guideline for a rocks fall trap
Honestly, people who don't use roll 4, keep lowest 3 in order don't know what they're missing out. If you think about it, it preserves the versimilitudinous milieu while encouraging people to roleplay instead of rollplay, and so people who don't use 4d6 keep lowest 3 aren't OSR fans or roleplayers at all.
Okay, so I asked this in the aborted last thread and then it died, but what the hell, I'll try again: anybody have any ideas for how to do a Basic D&D Slug-Man class for Yoon-Suin? I have some of my own, but I'd like to hear others.
What's wrong with 3d6?
Remind yourself that an average 3d6 roll comes out to be 10.5, so you're either getting a 10 or 11, making you already above average or exactly human average, where as 4d6 drop lowest comes out to be 12.5, so you're greatly above average.
So I've been thinking of a new way to do initiative. It always bothered me that higher level characters didn't have an advantage, so I thought about using a more restrictive system with some variation that was easy to use.
Basically your Initiative now is your classes' maximum possible hit dice roll (Fighter 10, Cleric 8, Thief 6, MU 4) + your level + your WISDOM modifier (not dexterity)
Therefore, a level 1 Fighter with a +1 Wisdom would have a Initiative of 12. The kicker is that you roll your weapon's damage die and subtract your initiative by that number. So with a sword, we could lose 1 or 6.
The reason for this system is, especially if you are the type that likes fighters being the best at fighting in all ways including going first, then you can see a magic user with the same ability score bonus and a knife for a weapon would have a maximum of 6-1 for 5, or the lowest being 2. There is no way for the magic user to go before the Fighter at least at the same level and bonuses; which to me makes a lot of sense.
As for how it affects monsters, essentially it means that monsters are tied with the Cleric, (since monsters use d8 Hit dice and +1 per HD) but a little below the Fighter, giving Fighters an advantage against them. The only other houserule that might be fun is if creatures with multiple attacks have to roll and subtract ALL their attacks, making big creatures go much lower down the Initiative chain.
I don't see how if multi-attack monsters or monsters with big damage dice have big negatives.
In fact the most dangerous thing in this proposed system would be enemy spellcasters, with 8 + hit dice and minus a small damage die for normal attacks. That could easily be a problem I could see happening.
I don't see why thieves need to go before anyone else unless you want the real rougish style thieves. They'd rely more on surprising people and keeping ranged then going first in a fight.
In case anyone's curious about Orcs of Thar characters and how they stack up, there's going to be someone playing a gnoll with shaman and wokani (I prefer to just call them witch doctors, by their AD&D designation) and I finished his progression, so we'll be able to see what a gnoll witch doctor will be like in practice:
Initiation: Witch Doctor (-2 hp)
Level -1: 7 hp. -1000 xp.
Level 0: 14 hp. 0xp.
1/1/1: 19 hp. 3k. 2 hd of minions. 1 1st level magic user spell.
2/2/2: 27 hp. 7k. 5 hd of minions. 2 mu, 1 clr spell.
3/3/3: 26 hp. -1 hp. 15k. 10 hd of minions. 2/1, 2
4/4: 23 hp. -1d4-1 hp. 31k. +5% xp. 20 hd of minions. 2/2, 2/1
5/5: 27 hp. -2 hp. 63k. 30 hd of minions. 2/2/1, 2/2
6/6: 26 hp. -1 hp, -1 con, 127k, +10% xp. 40 hd of minions. 2/2/2, 2/2/1
7/7: 25 hp. -1 hp, -1 con, 257k. +10% xp. 50 hd of minions. 3/2/2/1, 3/2/2
8/8: 25 hp. -2 hp. 519k. 60 hd of minions. 3/3/2/2, 3/3/2/1
9/9: 25 hp. -2 hp. 1039k. 70 hd of minions. 3/3/3/2/1, 3/3/3/2
10/10/10: 26 hp. -1 hp, -1 con, +10% xp. Fortunately for him, we're using 1e constitution; although at con 4, he's still only at -1 hp/level. +700k. 80 hd of minions. 3/3/3/3/2, 4/4/3/2/1
11/11/11: 26 hp.-2 hp. At this point he can drop magic user progression. 400k. 90 hd of minions. 4/3/3/3/2/1, 4/4/3/3/2
12/12/11: 24 hp. -1d4 hp. +500k. 100 hd of minions. 4/4/4/3/2/1
13/13/11: 25 hp. -1 hp. +500k. 110 hd of minions. 5/5/4/3/2/2
14/14/11: 27 hp. -1 hp. +500k. 120 hd of minions. 5/5/5/3/3/2
15/15/11: 28 hp. -1 hp. +500k. 130 hd of minions. 6/5/5/3/3/3
16/16/11: 29 hp. -1 hp. +500k. 140 hd of minions. 6/5/5/4/4/3
17/17/11: 30 hp. -1 hp. First 7th level shaman spell slot, suitable for druid spells. +500k. 150 hd of minions. 6/6/5/4/4/3/1
18/18/11: 31 hp. -1 hp. Second 7th level shaman spell slot, might as well quit here. +500k. 160 hd of minions. 7/6/5/4/4/4/2.
19/18/11+: 33 hp. 2 hp/level. +300k xp thereafter. 170 hd of minions.
And for those curious:
The magic user spells he'll be able to use (different slots from cleric) are:
1. Detect Magic, Light, Protection from Evil, Read Languages, Read Magic, Sleep.
2. Continual Light/Darkness, Invisibility, Detect Evil, Detect Invisible, Levitate, Web.
3. Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Lightning Bolt, Water Breathing.
4. Charm Monster, Growth/Withering of Plants, Ice Storm/Wall, Massmorph, Bestow/Remove Curse, Wall of Fire.
5. Animate Dead, Cloudkill, Dissolve, Hold/Free Monster, Pass-Wall, Wall of Stone.
6. Death Spell, Move Earth, Projected Image, Reincarnation, Stone to Flesh, Wall of Iron.
The cleric spells he'll be able to use are:
1st: Cure/Cause Light Wounds, Light/Darkness, Detect Magic, Protection from Evil (or Good, I guess)
2nd: Bless/Curse, Snake Charm, Hold/Free Person, Speak with Animals
3rd: Continual Light/Darkness, Cure Disease, Cure Blindness, Remove/Bestow Curse
4th: Cure/Cause Serious Wounds, Neutralize/Cause Poison, Speak with Plants, Dispel Magic
5th: Create Food, Dispel Evil, Cure Critical Wounds, Insect Plague
6th: Cureall, Find the Path, Speak with Monsters, Word of Recall
The druid spells he'll be able to use are (use the same cleric/shaman slots):
1st: Detet Danger, Faerie Fire, Locate, Predict Weather
2nd: Heat Metal, Obscure, Produce Fire, Warp Wood
3rd: Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Protection from Poison (VERY USEFUL), Water Breathing
4th: Control Temperature 10' Radius, Plant Door, Protection from Lightning, Summon Animals
5th: Antiplant Shell, Control Winds, Dissolve, Pass Plant
6th: Anti Animal Shell, Summon Weather, Transport Through Plants, Turn Wood
7th: Creeping Doom, Metal to Wood, Summon Elemental, Weather Control
So at level 10/10/10, he'll have the same XP as a human magic user 14 and similar hp. He will, however, have 80 HD worth of minions, and I plan on giving him access to a number of useful minions to recruit (trolls, chieftains, and rival witch doctors).
D&D tends to handle bonuses better than penalties (where you can run into the floor, or at least seriously gimp yourself). Also, from the standpoint of attribute checks, it's nice to have better than a 50/50 chance on average.
Or you could use the cave-in rules from the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (4d8 per 10' thickness of rock, save vs. petrification for half. Silt, mud, etc. do half, save for quarter. Water is as silt, but only applies damage for the first 10' thickness.)
The 1st level fighter with a +1 Wis mod would have 12 - 1d8 for a longsword, yielding 4-11 with an average of 7.5. A 1st level magic-user with a +1 Wis mod would have 6 - 1d4 for a dagger, yielding 2-5, with an average of 3.5. So the fighter has a definite advantage, but doesn't automatically win.
It seems counter-intuitive that monsters that are quick enough to attack a bunch of times end up being slower to act (and it also seems like a pain in the ass to have to roll and subtract for every attack).
Other than that, it seems like an interesting idea for a system.
Thieves may not actually be as disadvantaged as you think, at least once they get some experience under their belts, as they quick to gain levels.
looks to me that the main usefulness for an Orcs of Thar character being used in a mixed game is for commanding large amounts of minions, although from the looks of things said Gnoll Shaman/Wokani character is going to kinda suck till he hits level 3/3/3 when compared to the Core Classes, I'll admit I'm probably misreading something though
Well I endorsed 2d6 since that won't bring the whole adventurer to a screeching halt, 4d8 save for half will probably cause a number of PCs to be killed, all the henchmen, and completely bring the adventure to a screeching halt, if not the campaign.
Well, that 4d8 isn't for a rock being dropped by a harpy, it's for a 10 foot (2+meters) thick roof of stone collapsing in a cave-in on top of you. I would expect that to be much more likely to flat-out kill somebody than to just wound or maim them.
Large amounts of minions strike me as horrendously unmanageable, but trolls are off the hook.
Actually, I'm confused after rereading the section -- it says you can take over Normal Monsters, but then lists that you can get a 2 for 1 deal by using it on enemy chiefs. So I don't exactly get whether you can use it on advanced monsters.
Actually, it's up to 10', so 3' of rock still does 4d8, and 11' does 8d8.
What's even better is the chain reaction rules for collapses. Rock only comes away in 3' sheets, so you need four collapses to knock it up to 8d8 if it's just random collapses.
>although from the looks of things said Gnoll Shaman/Wokani character is going to kinda suck till he hits level 3/3/3 when compared to the Core Classes, I'll admit I'm probably misreading something though
You are probably right. It will be a very rough start.
Its more realistic, as only exceptional people should become a magic user (not everyone can rend reality with their mind), a cleric (Jesus shouldn't be the average joe), or a fighter (who is on par with figures like Hercules and Rath).
this is why I want to see someone do some books to rewrite the various BX/BECMI/RC supplement classes so they're better balanced with the Core 7 classes, so they don't suck as hard in early levels, but also make sure they aren't too overpowered by late game either
that also means 99 percent of all rolled characters would be completely unplayable, it's already assumed that Player Characters are exceptional so hampering them like that is retarded
>It seems counter-intuitive that monsters that are quick enough to attack a bunch of times end up being slower to act (and it also seems like a pain in the ass to have to roll and subtract for every attack).
That's true, but I was more referring to huge ass monsters that get multiple attacks because they are beasts. Like a multi-headed chimera or hydra or whatever.
There could be a 'fast' modifier to bosses or something that means they don't get that negative.
Anyone else here play Darkest Dungeon? I only mention it because I thought the way it handled some status effect stuff was pretty interesting.
Basically before you go on a mission you can bring along
>Bandages; Stops bleeding
>Antivenom; Ends Blight (basically poison)
>Medicine; Ends debuffs
>Holy Water; gives hero's strong resistances
>Shovel; Clears blockages without taking too much time
>Torches; Give light of course
>Food; for eating of course
These seem simply on the surface, but truthfully each can be used with certain 'curios' you come across in the environment. For example you can use a shovel on a grave to dig up treasure, or use holy water to consecrate a ruined alter.
Does anybody in /osr/ do stuff like this? What kind of rewards to give players who use their status items in such a way?
Main thing I find difficult about it is:
1. Pricing (if the PCs are level 2 or higher they probably have enough gold to get all of the mundane stuff they need)
2. Encumbrance (unless we use LotFP style encumbrance it sounds annoying to balance)
Not sure how it could be done in a compelling fashion.
On the other hand I've been considering a more tiered pricing range that'd have starting gear be in the first affordability range, advanced nonmagical gear in the second (warhorses, longbows, silver arrows, plate mail, holy water, antitox, and the stereotypical OSR greek fire that shows up everywhere), and the third pricing range could have hireling contracts for getting the fanciest of items (alchemists to make copies of potions you find, mercenary contrats, and hired blacksmiths to make full plate and maybe masterwork weaponry).
My most favorite thing about the OSR is how people use the basic old school D&D ruleset and bend it to their weird and diverse tastes and purposes. It's awesome because they make an effort to keep things compatible enough that I can frankenstein something ridiculous and fun.
I've seen a Dark Souls hack that 4chan won't let me post for some stupid reason, and I've seen Mega Man of all things as a class. Anyone else have anything weird or cool to share? I love reading people's homebrewed stuff.
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting, anon.
A minor detail I enjoy about BECMI is the concept of elemental creatures and items taking a very different form on their native plane. So for example, a medusa in the plane of earth is a weird tentacle monster with paralyitc attacks (as most residents of the plane of earth DGAF about petrification), and a staff of earth on the plane of earth instead becomes an item that permits vision, fast movement, communication, and protection from the natives on the plane of earth.
It reminds me of how in 1e, lemures send to the material plane become wraiths and spectres, etc.
It's a statless system!
I was only half joking, really.
I thought it was pretty neat with the alternate spells, to be honest, like Flesh-to-Stone not working on the Plane of Water since there's no Earth but Flesh-to-Ice being the local equivalent.
And the idea of the Elemental Planes being pretty much like the standard one with planets and stars and rivers and mountains, just made out of the respective element.
There's a lot of cool stuff in the BECMI cosmology, I feel.
"Complete Warlock?" Is that like the Complete Fighter, Complete Necromancer, etc? Lets give it a read....
I like skinny & sexy, like LotFP which is one of the tightiest D&D I know. I like bare-basics and taking the first D&D as a basis, so S&W was my second best, especially with the marvellous unified Saving Throw, but it still lacks the "essential"-ity of LotFP.
Now No Bloody Heroes I love because there's a question floating around about how much can you remove from D&D for it to still be D&D, and I think it provides a very ballsy answer : no hitpoints, no class, no saving throw list, no spell list, no abilities & modifiers, and yet, it still does the same job. Providing an invisible system that works as much for dungeoncrawl and "adventuring" in a broader sense.
Also it has a HexCrawl extension that makes HexCrawling enjoyable to me, No Bloody Ranger.
Also, one page games have a certain appeal to me, what with being minimalistic and all.
So yeah, if you too enjoy bare-bones basics, game design minimalism and gritty D&D (cause it's as gritty as can be with the absence of hit points meaning a 1st level is down in one hit, and a 10th level is down in ten hits, deleting a buffer that has been there since OD&D).
So this is extremely interesting.
I wouldn't really say that its "grittier" than most OSRs as the PCs are as survivable as in any other OSR and become moreso with level (I doubt your average level 10 char in OSR is going to feel comfortable taking 9 hits), but it is kind of an interesting take on it.
Looking around a bit more on that website, wasn't there someone who wanted a Thief with the LBB hit dice system?
Fascinating stuff, really. I'm really tempted to buy Playing at the World.
Hey, if we were still playing with Arnesson's initial Flunky/Hero/Superhero system then we'd not even have hit points. If you're hit you're dead, bucko. (This went for Heros as well, what with the Fantasy Combat Tables.)
Universally changing over to hit points was a good move IMHO.
Not that having two hit dice is actually twice as good as having one on account of the packing problem.
Also, if you really want Fighters perfectly defending against 3-4 hits then you should take a look at high-level BECMI play. Deflect is the epitome of bullshit, and when combined with shit like AC0 suit armor and shit high-level Fighters are actually fully capable of killing low-level Immortals. Gotta love Mentzer.
Wow, I forgot about deflect. That shit really does turn you into a Chainmail hero except replace "requires four simultaneous hits to kill" with "requires four simultaneous hits to scratch." Is there anything implying whether using multiple weapons gives more deflects?
> are actually fully capable of killing low-level Immortals. Gotta love Mentzer.
It is pretty cool, though Roaring Demons definitely pack a punch compared to the typical interpretation of a Balor.
Out of curiosity is there a way for a BECMI, pre-Wrath immortal to get multiple attacks other than Haste, dual wielding, etc?
Remember, those rules would have been specifically for Gandalf and Saruman.
I'm guessing the fireball might have come from that time Gandalf burnt all the wolves? Maybe? It seems pretty damn unfitting with the usually subtle magics of that setting, though.
Radagast is off being a hippy who hardly appears in the books, and Alatar and Pallando aren't really even mentioned.
Don't forget being completely immune to missile fire, and twice as tough as heroes.
Also, the rules say 'Wizards in possession of magic powers', like they can be without them. Does this add to their point cost?
What happens if you hit a wizard with another wizard's fireball? Are they immune? Do they die, as they're not (anti)heroes?
>It is pretty cool, though Roaring Demons definitely pack a punch compared to the typical interpretation of a Balor.
It's mostly since "+X vs. Regenerating" affects Immortals, and intelligent swords can get pretty damn bullshit with good enough rolls.
They'll still have a hard time, though, on account of Immortals being able to save vs. physical attacks and have their Aura and whatnot.
Low-level Immortals might just have AC 0, though, in which case I hope they like four attacks at THAC0 1/THAC20 17.
Of course, it's worth remembering that Immortals generally have pretty shit saves, and just make up for it in immunities.
>Out of curiosity is there a way for a BECMI, pre-Wrath immortal to get multiple attacks other than Haste, dual wielding, etc?
I'm not really sure, to be honest. They can assume a mortal form with multiple attacks, obviously, but in immortal form? They probably do enough d6s of damage per hit to make up for it, I suppose?
Because they roll a shitload of d6s.
Man, it's been too long since I read the Immortals box for me to remember this shit and it's still only been, like, a year.
It all depends on the scenario that has been decided for play, Anon. You don't just show up with your army of minis and play against randos, you try to re-enact historical battles/battles from literature/Alternate History shit.
I don't know much about historical wargaming, but it looks pretty interesting (if slightly weird).
You're probably limited to what, three wizards in a game that's after the five arrived but before Saruman got corrupted and Radagast abandoned his cause to go be a hippy?
I wonder whether or not the Gondor player have to pay for Ents, seeing as Ents are always hostile to Sauron's forces.
Smaug being at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields really annoys me, given that he'd been dead for 78 years when the BoPF took place.
Is it generally a good idea to make healing more difficult then normal to make the game feel grittier and less 'go to sleep and heal' style game?
Something like tracking individual wounds, though this be a lot of bookkeeping, could mean that at camp you can only tend to your worst wound and then all the others remain as damage that must heal naturally over time?
Saruman only died in the Scouring of the Shire - Peter Jackson killed him off early when they decided to cut that sequence, though.
Stabbed in the back by Wormtongue, who was then immediately shot to death by Hobbit archers.
As for the rest, I suspect that Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves and Uruk-Hai just use the same rules as Men... whatever those may be. I've got an old "Ancients" wargame from the right period and wargaming society that might fit, but I haven't read it yet.
I think the only difference with Orcs is that they hate each other and will have infighting if not careful?
Maybe it's a scenario where Smaug survived and later joined forces with Sauron, as Gandalf feared?
It's also worth noting that the Ents didn't give a shit about the situation with Sauron and just fucked off after fucking up Isengard. They never even interacted with Gondor.
...I think the rules were just for everything that Patt thought NEEDED extra rules, like Ents and Dragons, but I'm kind of wielded out that he doesn't have the Eagles. How am I supposed to play out my Battle of Five Armies without the Eagles?
Maybe the Ancients wargame has some war elephants that can be used for Mûmakil. That'd be cool.
I love BECMI fighters so much.
Speaking of which, is it better to read and play with the entire BECMI set instead of the RC? I was told that the RC is badly edited and confusing.
The RC also makes some weird changes, like limiting retainers per party rather than per character. And it skips the entirety of the tournament rules, IIRC. And includes some new spells from the Gazetteers, as well as Glantri's magic item construction rules and Dawn of the Emperor's magic building construction rules.
However, >>44957700 isn't wrong and the Rules Cyclopedia also does some good things like actually including Suit Armor into the treasure tables and actually giving some Weapon Mastery tables for unarmed fighting and wrestling.
Speaking of which, I still love that a "Smash" with an unarmed strike is called a "Haymaker".
I'd still recommend that you play with BECMI, though, since the RC mixes things up enough that it's hard to tell how they're supposed to be used. Using BECMI for learning the game and the RC for referencing might be a good idea, though.
And, of course, the RC is entirely missing Immortals and artifacts, and Wrath of the Immortals is butts. I much prefer Immortals, for all its flaws - it's actually interesting and different.
Track each wound individually - if you take three damage from one hit and two from another, you have one three damage wound and one two damage wound.
For healing, assume that you need to rest a number of days equal to the wound for the wound to decrease by one (but also have all wounds decrease simultaneously - after two days you'd have a 1-damage wound and a three-damage wound, and the day after that you'd only have a two-damage wound).
That mess up there is roughly how I remember Hackmaster doing it - can't say that I like it myself, to be honest.
Also, note that in something like BECMI you're maybe healing 1d3 hit points a day. I think some versions even have it by just a single hit point a day, no matter the level of the character.
Are you really suggesting something even slower than that?
>but also have all wounds decrease simultaneously - after two days you'd have a 1-damage wound and a three-damage wound
If all wounds are decreasing simultaneously, and you have a two and a three, you'd only have a 1 HP wound after two days.
No, if takes three days for a 3 to become a 2, two for a 2 to become a 1, and then 1 for the last 1 to disappear, meaning six days to heal three damage.
However, it's also six days to heal six damage, or six days to heal infinity damage as long as none of the wounds is greater than 3.
I think. I never actually got around to playing it, but Hackmaster looked like a hella weird system.
I like to implement the At Death's Door mechanic in my games. At 0 HP, characters can still fight but each time they take damage they must save vs. poison or die (with a penalty based on the damage they took). It does make PCs harder to kill at lower levels but it's fun to see the dread on their faces when they realize they went too far and now half the party is At Death's Door and there's no easy way back out of the dungeon.
They didn't even mention associated mechanics!
But come on, everyone loves the word verisimililtudinous. Except the dictionary, but it's definitely legit RPG flamewar grognard jargon.
In Search of the Unknown has less things around it, like the Keep and whatnot.
Then again, you need to stock it yourself since they figured that they might as well help teach DMs with the introductory module as well. Keep on the Borderlands comes ready-stocked.
It also depends on how much mapping you want - B1 has a fairly tricky map if that's something you're into.
>Is it generally a good idea to make healing more difficult then normal to make the game feel grittier and less 'go to sleep and heal' style game?
This makes it sound like you're mostly used to new D&D -- which is fair enough. But if that's the case, I think just reading the rules and playing by them will be quite sufficient. It's very hard to go to sleep and heal in mid-delve in Basic D&D. You're pretty much guaranteed to get harassed awake by wandering monsters, or just ambushed in your sleep, if you try to rest inside the dungeon -- regaining HP and spells through rest practically only happens in town. Hell, in some versions of old D&D it's not even clear that you *get* to regain spells by resting. (In which case you get spells per adventure and can only regain spells between sessions; I like to play this way myself)
>Fascinating stuff, really. I'm really tempted to buy Playing at the World.
If you like this D&D-prehistory stuff, you should definitely get it. It's a whopper of a tome, but chock full of stories and facts like those.
Moldvay has a room trap that might be relevant:
>Ceiling Block falls: Save vs. Turn to Stone or take 1d10 points of damage
1d10 seems pretty deadly, although you could up the dice and do save halves for a severe cave-in.
Dorfs have rock knowledge. Millennia of avoiding cave-ins.
Halflings are nimble and small.
Don't you ruin my contrived explanations. Now roll save versus Magic Wand or I zap you with my laser gun.
Because they're "nonmagical" and thus OD&D gave them the saves of Fighters four levels above them, IIRC. BECMI boosted Halfling saves even further past B/X, presumably on account of them otherwise never reaching that final save bracket that Dwarves do.
Don't ask me where that came from, though. I guess Hobbits are good at resisting the Ring and stuff like that?
Where did the idea of Dwarves as non-magic come from?
Save vs. Wand is the somewhat standard "dodge a thing" save - Death Ray is similar but also easier by a point or two.
Spells are also harder to resist than Wands, which is something some people don't notice about the old save system.
No comments on the S3 stuff, though - I'm not familiar enough with Metamorphosis Alpha to know why saves might be what they are.
>I don't understand why they share saves.
Forgot to mention in >>44962184: compare the Halfling/Dwarfs saves to a Fighters, and then consider why Halfings/Dwarves have the same level titles as Fighters. Yeah.
Also I guess it might be worth mentioning that Dwarves get a bonus to saves vs. magic up until at least 3E - I think 4E also has something similar, and I'd be surprised if 5E didn't.
Halflings lost that bit, I think.
Honestly, one thing I like about OSR particularly is the way they alot demihumans:
Derfs: Health, Giant Fighting, +1 to hit orcs and gobs
Elfs: Stealth, +1 to hit with bow and sword
Halflings: Stealth & Health, +1 (?) to hit with throwing
Gnomes: Stealth & Health, Giant Fighting, +1 to hit kobs and gobs
If you're sluggish and stubby you get everything resistance to compensate.
Ever used light sources as a form of treasure or loot? It feels like it could work well to help facilitate a sense of urgency, when you start to run low on light you'd have to spend time fighting more light, like how you'd look for tinderboxes in amnesia.
D&D really doesn't have a wealth system scaled for that sort of thing, and PCs could just leave the dungeon to go buy more. The whole survival thing would probably, at a minimum, require merchants to be rare and have only tiny amounts of items. Not sure how you could do it.
>Halflings: Stealth & Health, +1 (?) to hit with throwing
Some versions use +1 with everything ranged, some (Greyhawk) use +3 with slings specifically, and the LBBs/Chainmail just straight-up give the little buggers +50% attacks in mass combat. Hell if I know how to translate that to non-Chainmail combat, though. (For reference, two Halflings act as three and four as six for the purposes of ranged combat. I used those numbers since OD&D halflings only get to level 4.)
Also worth noting is how all the demihumans get bonuses to listening, Elves are better at locating secret doors and have a chance to sense them without searching, and Dwarves getting all those small piddly bonuses with recognizing slanting passages and traps and whatnot.
That's very interesting, but also seems even harder to make Wizards balanced.
What does the Wizard 'do' when they run out of powers per session? They just go back to using a crossbow or darts? Just become a shitty hireling until they can restore their powers?
It does sound very interesting though but I feel like the fast paced action and inherit short term magical spells kind of don't mesh well with it.
I kinda dislike how the more rules lite OSRs nerf wizard weapons so badly, like in 1e darts, daggers, and quarterstaves are honestly fucking great weapons; darts have the DPR of a longsword, daggers will almost always get 2 attacks a round except during charges, and quarterstaves will almost always hit first during all charges.
but yeah, I get the impression some people really REALLY like to drag out low levels and make low level parties suffer in these threads
What if you gave Wizards minor powers to be used during an adventure that they could spend their spell slots on instead of normal spells?
Like at first level they could use that first spell slot to give them a minor magical ability they can use at will during the adventure, but obviously they don't have any spell slots left over and they'd have to wait until the next adventure in which they could spend them on something else.
When does the 'adventure' end and the next one begin to refill the old school mage anyway?
>Again, 'continual' light.
>he doesn't play with zones of magical darkness/dispelling traps
Seriously, dude, fucking with the magic-user is like OSR 201.
>I kinda dislike how the more rules lite OSRs nerf wizard weapons so badly, like in 1e darts, daggers, and quarterstaves are honestly fucking great weapons; darts have the DPR of a longsword, daggers will almost always get 2 attacks a round except during charges, and quarterstaves will almost always hit first during all charges.
Except the ones that just let wizards use longswords, which is frankly a much better solution.
I'm not a fan of this. But I wouldn't give the magic user continual light spells anyway.
Magic users should be countering MAGIC. Like warding against creatures or bypassing magical walls of wind that block progress or whatever. Leave the practical physical skills to the thief and leave the damage and combat to the fucking fighter, please. This is how caster dominance starts.
No, but their spells cannot or should not replace practical efforts. Give them something more interesting to do then to be a lantern or fighter with lightning bolts instead of a bow.
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The spell, yes. On the other hand, traps have nothing whatever to do with actual spell effects, and you can cast a reversed Continual Light on an object anyway. A couple of TSR modules actually have spots that kill >all< light, including Continual Light spells, and they have to be re-ignited/recast when you leave.
Sounds absolutely terrible. Mages have always been of practical use. If you don't like the S&S genre then find another game.
He's got a point, the idea that mages shouldn't be able to use light spells and lightning bolts is unnecessarily antagonistic and not even remotely OSR.
The full quote is:
"The whole plethora of enchanted items lies at the magic-users beck and call, save the arms and armor of the fighters (see, however, Elves); Magic-Users may arm themselves with daggers only."
The only enchanted arms usable by magic-users are daggers. There is no restriction made on mundane arms.
>Like at first level they could use that first spell slot to give them a minor magical ability they can use at will during the adventure, but obviously they don't have any spell slots left over and they'd have to wait until the next adventure in which they could spend them on something else.
How should this work? You can maybe summon a small animal companion or minion when the adventure first starts, and that is how that magical slot is 'spent' during the adventure? Maybe you get detect magic or mage armor as a passive ability due to rituals and things you've set up before hand?
I think its an interesting idea but it needs work for it to make sense, much less be balanced.
>Treasure trove is an amount of money or coin, gold, silver, plate, or bullion found hidden underground or in places such as cellars or attics, where the treasure seems old enough for it to be presumed that the true owner is dead and the heirs undiscoverable. The legal definition of what constitutes treasure trove and its treatment under law vary considerably from country to country, and from era to era.
>In Roman law treasure trove was called thesaurus ("treasure" in Latin), and defined by the Roman jurist Paulus as "vetus quædam depositio pecuniæ, cujus non extat memoria, ut jam dominum non habeat" (an ancient deposit of money, of which no memory exists, so that it has no present owner).
>Under the emperors, if treasure was found on a person's own land or on sacred or religious land, the finder was entitled to keep it. However, if the treasure was found fortuitously, and not by deliberate search, on another person's land, half went to the finder and half to the owner of the land, who might be the emperor, the fiscus (public treasury), the city, or some other proprietor.
>According to Dutch jurist Hugo Grotius (1583–1645), as the feudal system spread over Europe and the prince was looked on as the ultimate owner of all lands, his right to the treasure trove became jus commune et quasi gentium (a common and quasi-international right) in England, Germany, France, Spain and Denmark.
When's the last time you had the legal owner of the dungeon's land, or the sovereign of the territory it's in, insist on their legal right to the treasure found there?
I'm a level 1 MU with 'sleep' memorized, and with 'sleep' 'read magic' and 'detect magic' in my spellbook. Until we find something for me to pop my sleep-wad on, I'm the party's weak link. And then I do my thing, and then I go back to being sub-par. That's always been how MUs play until high levels.
I dont' like to fuck with players that much, but I do enjoy messing with the concept a little bit. But most of these nobles wouldn't want or need adventurers fucking around in their dungeons unless they had reason to, so they'll agree to a predetermined split of the money. The party could try to hide some of it and only report a fraction of it, or they could be honest, or they could take the money and run. All many interesting ways to do this.
Actually, he was responding to a guy who thought casters should lose even that niche, since a level one guy wiping out 2-4 HD of monsters is definitely "replacing practical efforts"
Strictly enforcing taxes is enough for me. It's a great adventure hook. Threatening to take players' stuff (even though this all perfectly legal and fair) motivates them like nothing else.
Yeah, I play LotFP, which is also unrestricted in weapons use. It also skips most of the direct-damage spells for curses and things like sending your arm off to choke them to death in their sleep. I like the way it makes wizards more subtle but no less lethal, as well as giving you the ability to do scrolls and potions from level 1.
I sorta like how some LotFP spells look like they're analogous to D&D evocations, like Army of One seems analogous to Fireball, only more high action/wuxia than X-Men. I've only casually looked over the spells, but I wonder how many of them are like that.
I believe he's thinking of the Bigby's series of spells with the name filed off.
Most of the new spells are pages and pages of charts LOL YOU MIGHT MAKE THE TARGET POOR BUT YOU MIGHT GIVE HIM SUPER POWERS xD
Read the side effects for Howl of the Moon in the rulebook - it's not just a cheap polymorph, by a long shot. Nightmare Fuel (from Gingerbread Princess) is a pretty scary but (relatively) safe Summoning spell. Then there's shit like Animate Hands, which gives you something like Haste.
Animated Artwork replaces a lot of the upper-end summoning spells, and is MUCH safer than actually summoning things - but it can be incredibly powerful if you get ahold of, say, Da Vinci's notebooks..
Clone is your resurrection spell, it's just kind of fucked for the clone. Nightmare Fuel (Gingerbread Princess) can also be useful in the right circumstances as a sort of shitty Reincarnation.
Demand is bloody terrifying.
From Orcs of Thar:
Cattle: (live) 20 XP per HD
Food: 10 xp per 50 lbs (can support 1 HD of humanoid per week)
Drinks: 10 xp per barrel
Armor and Weaopns: 1 XP per GP value
Fur and Clothes: 1 XP per outfit
Tools and Equipment: 1 XP per 10 GP value
Treasure: 1 XP per 5 GP value
Prisoners: Humanoids & intelligent monsters: 5 xp per HD
Humans: 10 xp each
Elves: 1 xp each
Dwarves: 5 xp each
Halflings: 8 XP each
Casualties: Gain normal XP for each creature defeated during raid, lose double XP for each tribesman lost during raid.
You can get a bit more XP with oddball stuff like this.
>Where the fuck is that spell? I don't see any of that in the spell list.
Arm of Zotz, it's one of the spells in the First-level spell contest.
Note that many of these are flagrantly overpowered (Howl of the Moon got moved to L3 when it was published, and I wouldn't put Bloody Red Box at less than level 2 either). There's also a couple of really, really tasteless ones, although you've gotta admit that turning your opponent's testicles into angry piranhas intent on each other's destruction is funny as fuck.
I'd have put it at second level, it's clearly more effective than, say, Command or Charm Person in that it makes them deadlier and they have no memory after the event (even if it's only castable at night).
I actually like most of his contest stuff, it's like Santicore but with a slightly crueler streak.
I always take that as read. Classes get a bit of appropriate knowledge based on their background, so MU's recognize magical weird stuff, clerics know about obscure cults, fighters know how to do army things and thieves always know where to find a fence. Stuff like that.
When converting existing concepts or homebrewing weird stuff into something OSR compatible, what are the things I should keep in mind? What should I avoid?
For reference, the things I'm thinking about are converting the core Rifts classes, making OSR giant super robots, and some rules changes that will make things seem more "anime" for a lack of better term.
It doesn't have to involve any of those things, any general tips and tricks are welcome.
1st level aren't just overgrown cantrips, you know. Kinda single target save or lose with some utility (charm or light), kinda give yourself splint mail (shield), kinda recruit somebody (charm or find familiar).
Magic Missile starts off as garbage, but becomes solid gold later on...
Yeah, definitely. You could also throw a few scrolls in the dungeon so the magic user has a chance to use a few interesting spells at low levels. No one should feel left out of the dungeon crawl, even a level 1 magic user.
>What does the Wizard 'do' when they run out of powers per session?
Think of him as an adventurer like everybody else, but he knows this one trick that's handy in a tight spot.
Adventuring parties in old school games often find they need to hire some guys to come with them, because you can't hold a sword and a shield and a torch, and you can't fight in the dark, and heavy armor means you can't carry as much other stuff, etc. But hirelings eat up shares of loot and experience, so instead you bring a mage along and that experience goes towards turning him into a major asset.
In the meantime he handles lighting up the combat zone, dropping caltrops to cover retreats, applying oil to things for trapping or controlling monsters, setting up ropes, and all sorts of other useful functions that the fighter can't focus on. And if things get really real, maybe he uses his one cast of Hold Portal to magically seal a door shut in that one scary monster's face so everyone can beat a quick retreat before any more party members get wrecked.
(I always liked playing wizards in OSR games. You have to be more Rincewind or Gandalf than Mr. Fireballs Everything)
Here's Ruins as PDF related.
Here's the new and improved Asian-themed sequel, Mad Monks of Kwantoom, some link assembly required:
anonfiles com /file/6b5639e23f28531546019fce9bcd5eb3
(I posted this with a bunch of stuff in a previous thread, but TroveGuy's been out of contact for a while so it's not been added.)
A young hydra (5HD) in search of food. It's powerful but also a coward. When it attacks, it tries to kill someone (PC, hireling, pack animal, war dog) and runs away with the corpse to eat it in it's lair off the map.
>cattle raids should be in every game.
Sadly, my players are more interested in slave raids right now.
So I'm writing my first 'module' as it were and along the process I've noticed a LOT of these NPCs would make for really interesting characters for people to play if needed.
Does anybody else or any published material do this? Allowing players to play as new NPCs as PCs as replacement characters? Would anyone be interested in playing a replacement character or do most people prefer making/generating their own characters?
Besides class and name players could probably generate everything else about the character after they get it, but I'd like to know if there are any systems for this kind of thing.
The Dutch and English are actively hunting slave ships, but they're hanging around in Portugese and Berber ports. They've already made several powerful enemies, but not because of the slaving - but things will go badly for one of the PCs if they get searched right now. On the other hand, they're also in the midst of a slave revolt, and they sold several of the people involved in it..
Short version of how I handle it: it's messy and likely to bite you in the ass, but it was an accepted thing in the 1600s. Most of the consequences are random encounter-based and/or an effect of reputation.
>what's your take on awarding xp for spending cash?
Well, you fuck the domain endgame in the ass.
There's an assumption that you'll save most of the money to build your castles and whatnot, so if you need to spend money to get experience then that goal becomes so much more unreachable.
Of course, if you're not interested in the domain game then it's probably an alright rule - you just run into the issue of how exactly the characters are going to spend those tens of thousands of GP, and suddenly go from not needing to worry about the treasure's impact on the economy (because the characters are saving it for building stuff later) to having characters dump literal tons of gold into the market on a per-adventure basis.
Also, in a by-the-book B/X game most of that treasure XP is going to come from lightweight gems and jewelry and characters will have plenty of hirelings to lob the bags of coins around and they'll probably leave most of the copper where it lies until they've cleared out the level and can empty it in relative peace.
Copper makes up for most of the weight while being very little of the value, after all. Chances are that some of the weapons they can loot off of dead goblins are, while worth less than their weight in gold or perhaps even silver, worth much more than their weight in copper.
A thought on OD&D that might be of interest to those who subscribe to the whole "Mythic Underworld" thing:
"Normal" monsters are stronger in the dungeon than outside.
No, really. Hear me out here. Dahlunn recommends a base 1d6 NA for wandering "normal" dungeon monsters and a base 1 for fantastic ones, right? I think we can all agree that that's far too few to employ something like Chainmail's mass combat for, at least.
However, out in the wilderness you're going to meet something like 2d10x10 to 4d10x10 of normal monsters. That's way too many to NOT use mass combat. (Incidentally, I'd recommend using Chainmail's original scale of 1:10 rather than 1:20.)
Now, this means that "normal" monsters - bandits, berserkers, goblin-types - are all roughly ten times stronger in the dungeon than they are outside of it.
I'm alright with that, personally.
Well isn't that kind of the reason why characters are supposed to get a free fort when they reach name level? Free Fort, Free Wizard Tower, Free Thieves Guild, Free Monastery?
Besides,money spent on a fort can be counted as experience points, and when you get back from an especially big haul at higher levels you would make enough to buy the fort or at least invest in the land or part of the materials and what not.
I personally enjoy the spend gold to get XP thing because it makes players act somewhat realsitic. You come into a lot of money? That shit is gone so damn fast and you've got to get more. That's just how people work.
Not in any edition of AD&D. You have to get hold of the land, then you have to build something on it, and you have to pay your personnel.
Hitting name level means you have enough clout to attract followers, but you can technically build a stronghold whenever.
I'm not sure how officially suggested it was, but one common way of playing it was that the local king or whatever would say "sure, have a free fort, heh, it's outside the borders and still has a few bits of wall intact, see if you can get it going again. take some tents, there's not really a roof." That is, you got some old fucked-up ruin and official permission to claim the surrounding region if you could.
You could try asking for money, but that might remind the king about taxes.
Its for humanoid raiders. Put one way, treasure is almost useless for them, while practical items are full value. Put another way, this is for what you AND all your flunkies do, and that treasure's going to be split a hell of a lot more than 5 ways...
How do you guys handle the party finding magic items? Do you tell them they found a +2 short sword or do you require them to have it appraised by someone who can detect magic? And if so, is it appraised as a +2 short sword or do you hide the mechanics in-game by saying: "Jup, that's a magic sword, all right. It's probably pretty good.", and not reveal the actual stats at all?
That doesn't really follow -- friend and foe alike are divided in that way.
Though if you assume that level 4 and level 8 fighters are Arnesonian heroes and superheroes outside of it (only killed if 80 or 160 people simultaneously strike killing blows on them at once) then I'll believe it...
Detect magic tells you that it's magic - it doesn't tell you WHAT kind of magic, though. Sting might just be a normal sword with Continual Light cast on it, or in later editions you might get something like Magic Aura to trick players with.
Identify is the spell that actually tells you what the fuck it is, and some editions put some serious limitations on it because you're generally supposed to figure out what the fuck the item does through play.
Remember, most of AD&D's rules were in the DMG for a reason. The rules aren't neccessarily for the players to know - it's kind of like Paranoia in that way.
Letting Detect Magic identify items also fucks up the entire idea of cursed items, for what it's worth.
Also, this entire thing doesn't really work if you don't include mundane objects in your dungeons now and again.
I don't think short sighted goofball is "realistic," and I don't envision clerics, elves, or dwarves as commonly having splurgish personalities like that.
One of the dragon magazines has a feudalism thing where low level types can be gifted a feef, so yeah. I prefer that that's a specific thing.
You might argue that the DM needs to track these bonuses. Technically, PCs have no notion of stats so it would be weird for some magic-user to say they found a +2 short sword. All they know is that it's magic and they might notice how they are better at combat when using it.
>The rules aren't neccessarily for the players to know - it's kind of like Paranoia in that way.
The players are supposed to read the rules for Paranoia, they're just not supposed to reveal that they have.
I'm just assuming that outside of the dungeon characters with a Fighting Capability of 1 Man fight as singular figures while 0-level mercenaries have 10 men for every figure.
>How else are they going to be able to apply the effects to their characters?
You know how OD&D doesn't actually make magic armor change your AC but subtracts from the opponent's roll? Yeah.
The DM is also not supposed to use the actual rules in Paranoia.
>You might argue that the DM needs to track these bonuses.
I might also argue that the DM has enough to keep track of, without having to handle all of the PCs' attack bonuses too.
Still, don't you think it's breaking character when you talk about stats in-game? Right now I tell my players they found a sword which looks rather different than most swords. They can use Detect Magic to find out it is indeed a magic sword, and at that moment I inform the players that it is in fact a +2 short sword.
I personally prefer 'magical' items to actually be magical, not just +1 sort of stuff.
If you want a simplier and better way to do it, in my opinion, make +1 and +2 items strange and raw materials. When you describe a weapon as a 'Orange Steel Longsword' that means it has +1, but if you describe it as 'Infernal Ore-Struck Black Sword' that means a +2 and so on. You can just tell the players once what it means so they establish a clear tier'd hierarchy, or you could allow those things to come out in regular play. (The high king's royal guards have orange steel swords, but the king himself has a demon sword, indicating it is higher quality, etc.)
The characters don't know that it's a +2 sword or that they're a third-level Fighting-Man or that their weapon does 1d8 damage or that they have 13 Charisma and thus can only hire five exceptional hirelings, or even how many hit points they themselves have.
Players might, though.
There's a difference between character knowledge and player knowledge. Players may "metagame" and have their characters act on knowledge that they could not know, and that's fine. It's not like you can avoid that, anyway.
Level 0s are people like torchbearers, potion-tasters, loot-carriers and other nonclassed hirelings. Also, most mercenaries.
Note how those characters are pretty useless in a one-on-one fight anyway.
Also, remember that this is OD&D. Monsters in dungeons have infravision until they join the party, and doors open automatically for monsters but are stuck for players. The rules themselves are a lot more ""gamist"" than more modern ones.
Also, an Evil High Priest is just fighting as four figures (Hero+1), or I guess 40 actual men if you want to count in that way.
The Acolyte in your party fights as one man, and the Veteran fights as 1+1. The Lord fights as eight men (Superhero+1).
Do note, however, that when EHPs are encountered in the dungeon they come in very low numbers at the lowest levels (Evil Priests just fight as 3 Men), and when they're encountered out in the wilderness you just meet one EHP with 2d6 1d4th level Clerics - compare that with 3d10x10 Bandits!
Also, see this bit on the Fighting Capability of monsters:
>Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men are simply a matter of allowing one roll as a man-type for every hit die, with any bonuses being given to only one of the attacks, i.e. a Troll would attack six times, once with a +3 added to the die roll. (Combat is detailed in Vol. III.)
Note: Combat is not actually detailed in Vol. III, beyond pointing to Chainmail:
>The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL, with one figure representing one man or creature. Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Volume I or by the CHAINMAIL system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit. Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure.
Slip the magic-user's player a note telling them it's +1, and they'll get a couple of bonus xp for every sentence of magibabble.
If you don't have an inspired magic-user, you can substitute the fighting man who subscribes to Swords & Swords Quarterly and has long arguments about whether a sword enchanted with a seventh-quadrant weave for an overall +1.0002 is better or worse for EDC than a basic +0.99, +1.007 vs enemies over 4', +1.008 in torchlight.
>Note how those characters are pretty useless in a one-on-one fight anyway.
They're as useless or not useless as level 1 fighting men. But I don't get it; their level of uselessness is still the strength of ten men.
>Monsters in dungeons have infravision until they join the party
Okay, but there's no commensurate drop if they join the party. Not even the vaguest indication that they're physically boosted.
The only distinction in strength is, maybe, the stuck doors thing.
>Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure.
That's interesting, I suppose. So a wilderness encounter with 200 orcs is supposed to only really be as hard as with 10 orcs?
Men & Magic, yeah. Although the "Alternate Combat System" is really just a replacement table for Man-to-Man combat, as Dahlunn showed.
Seriously, the ACS is literally just a single table. There's not even initiative or explanations of why you'd want a spear over a dagger or anything, just a table of what you need to roll to hit a specific type of armor.
That table's fairly interesting, in retrospect - it's not a straightforward -2/3 levels, there's a -3 bump at level 7-9 and 16+. There's a 12 point difference over sixteen levels.
And it stacks with Fighting Capability, meaning that normals are double-fucked.
>Okay, but there's no commensurate drop if they join the party. Not even the vaguest indication that they're physically boosted.
It's not an explicit thing, or perhaps even an intended thing, just like I'd reckon that the OD&D Implied Setting is not quite what Gary and Dave had in mind when writing the rules.
It's just that, well, if you encounter a few bandits then they're vastly more powerful than encountering many bandits.
Much like monsters automatically open doors since presumably otherwise it'd be difficult to use wandering monsters. It's a simplification for the sake of convenience.
>That's interesting, I suppose. So a wilderness encounter with 200 orcs is supposed to only really be as hard as with 10 orcs?
Ayup. Although not really, since as per Vol.II they might also be leading a wagon train with lots of extra loot and orcs and also a Lord or Wizard, and if you're meeting them in their lair then they've also got dragons and ogres and trolls and balrogs and all kinds of nasty stuff.
Bandits are similar, in that they get a bunch of high-level leaders when you start meeting them in their hundreds.
Also, going for 1:20 battles doesn't really work that well when the Number Appearing is multiplied by 10 rather than 20 - what are you supposed to do if you roll up 210 goblins, for instance?
>It's not an explicit thing, or perhaps even an intended thing, just like I'd reckon that the OD&D Implied Setting is not quite what Gary and Dave had in mind when writing the rules.
Wait, a quick comment on the Implied Setting:
Did the author of it not notice the interplanetary teleport option for cursed scrolls? 'Cause that seems like a lot more natural a use for the Mars sections of the alternate desert encounter tables.
It's not that there's thoats and white martians running around in one of the deserts, it's that a party might read the wrong scroll and get teleported to Mars.
Also, does anyone here have any good old board game hex maps? I figured that it might be interesting to see what's out there.
>Also, does anyone here have any good old board game hex maps? I figured that it might be interesting to see what's out there.
Not to hand, and I'm about to go out, but if you check out boardgamegeek there are a few geeklists of pretty maps, sf/fantasy maps, and so on. Some of those are great.
I'll take a look. Last time I tried searching I got stuck down the rabbit hole of board games with hexagonal tiles.
Alright, I'll acknowledge something is up if the intent seems to be that wilderness fights be things that are actually winnable to non super badass people.
Intuitively, it feels like wilderness encounters should be easier than the dungeon anyway.
I'm pretty sure the intent was indeed that you'd encounter Martians in the desert like he says, as they put in four armed white monkeys, black martian expys (drow) and probably more as normal creatures.
I'm contemplating alien deserts myself, but Dark Sun stuff seems alien enough.
There's three mentions of Mars in the booklets, I think:
V3p18 has a category of Men called "Desert (Mars)", with the monsters in parenthesis being martians and tharks;
V3p19 doesn't actually mention Mars, but the Optional Arid Plains are filled with Martian animals;
V3p24 has the following:
>There should be no "natural laws" which are certain. Space could be passable because it is filled with breathable air. On the other hand the stars could be tiny lights only a few hundred miles away. Some areas of land could be gates into other worlds, dimensions, times, or whatever. Mars is given in these rules, but some other fantastic world or setting could be equally as possible. This function is up to the referee, and what he wishes to do with it is necessarily limited by his other campaign work. However, this factor can be gradually added, so that no sudden burden will be placed upon the referee.
Note how "Mars is given in these rules"!
Also, of course, there's the 10% chance of a Scroll containing "1 Curse", with a 1/8 chance that said curse is "Transportation to another planet".
Besides, personally I find it more interesting to have the characters brought to another planet rather than having the residents of that planet just living on "ours".
This one's maybe not as useful, but I could see it getting use.
>Besides, personally I find it more interesting to have the characters brought to another planet rather than having the residents of that planet just living on "ours".
I find it more interesting that the desert have its own style of encounters like waterways, mountains, swamps, etc.
Nomads and Dervishes, yo. They even get their own treasure type!
Also, of course, the reduced encounter tables mean that each thing is that much more likely - there's more Men in the desert than anywhere else! And more name-level characters.
And for some reason it's the only non-City place where you can't find Lycanthropes.
And it's also got a 50% chance of getting lost, so, well. Deserts aren't a nice place to be, really. You're just as likely to get lost as in swamps, less likely to get eaten by undead, and more likely to due of thirst.
Also, I think "Optional Arid Plains" could just as well fit for "Clear" terrain.
>And for some reason it's the only non-City place where you can't find Lycanthropes.
You'd think fur would be nice at night, but mostly it just means they die of heatstroke during the day.
Got any good carousing rules? The internet has a bunch of tables but not any nice short mechanical benefits of doing it.
Can treasure = xp and spending money = xp be used at the same time? Or does that just end up accelerating things to much? I honestly don't mind making things level a bit faster.
For reference, the big difference is that in the desert you get three magic items, in the water you get one map, and everywhere else it's three items with a quarter being magic and the rest maps.
Also, they're just more likely to have magic items in the first place. 60% is more than 40%, right? It's the highest magic rate in the game, even beating out Type G's (Dwarves) 40% "Any 4+Scroll".
Deserts get less coins than the other two, but are in the middle when it comes to gems and jewelry.
The saving grace of the whole thing that makes it so that you can't just farm magic items by starting a race war is that Men only have a 15% In Lair and, y'know, they live in the Desert. Deserts are a bad place to be. You might not get out.
And, of course, they'll have a bunch of Fighting Men with them and maybe magic users and clerics (all possibly with yet more magic items).
>Can treasure = xp and spending money = xp be used at the same time? Or does that just end up accelerating things to much? I honestly don't mind making things level a bit faster.
It depends, really.
If you're in B/X then treasure was already 75% of the experience - that means that you've given them a +75% XP bonus, meaning that they'll level up almost twice as fast. That may or may not be desirable.
Really though, if you feel like your players are leveling up too slowly just adjust the XP tables.
Still, going to the desert seems as cost effective a plan as anything. Actually, the most cost effective plan seems to be to play official modules -- shits are LOADED.
I do it when I'm running OD&D- you get XP for the extraction, and you can buy XP during downtime by pissing it away.
That's research, commissioning art, throwing festivals/tributes, carousing, hiring a trainer.
It's a hefty XP bonus (like the guy up thread said, almost +75%)
I like it because it rewards two things
a) keeping the character hungry for cash
b) The player planting seeds for further adventure (local up and ups don't appreciate some outsider having a tribute to themselves)
I have a homebrewed lore system I let players use. If my description of an item tips a player off that it might be magical, they can roll a d20 and a 20 results in a successful ID. You could also apply your int bonus to this roll, so a magic user with 16 int would need to roll at least an 18 to ID something.
Since usually the magic user will be the only one in the party with an int high enough to give that bonus, it balances pretty well.
>There's a difference between character knowledge and player knowledge
Yeah, that was the point: if I immediately inform the players that they have found a +2 short sword, I cannot trust on them to play their characters the same way as when I wouldn't have told them. In that case however, the +2 bonus still applies when they decide to wield the weapon while unappraised, and I should keep track of that. I was mainly interested in how other people play this and deal with the "meta gaming" as a possible result.
Ok. Keep in mind that being preachy about how other people aren't purist enough isn't constructive.
I'm not sure exactly why its necessary to respond to someone asking for [prettily made thing] with [go make your own pencilly scribbly version of thing].
I might have put it a bit too harsh, what I mean is that as soon as a player knows he has some good stuff on his hands it's hard to play it fair when for instance trading the item at the local blacksmimth. It's like telling players the worth of the gems their characters found and then have them try to exchange them for cash at the bank.
>What in the fuck?
In general, responding to a fairly simple request with "lol do it yourself" is a dick move, but also willfully obtuse since it also implies that other people have, in fact, done it themselves at some point. In case you're wondering, however, yes I did find a nice looking map, thanks for being a passive aggressive cunt.
Anon, the whole point of his comment was that you are supposed to draw your own. Yes, you can use someone else's map and that's fine, but the point is that the unmapped wilderness is exactly that: unmapped. It's up to the DM to populate it with what they want to put there.
You're aware that the Keep is pretty damn big, right?
Look at this map; it's the one from the module. It's in a scale of 1 square=10' - fairly standard stuff.
However, THE CENTRAL COURTYARD ALONE is 23 squares wide - that's nearly two feet if 1"=10', four if you use the 4E-esque 5ft inch, and EIGHT FEET if you use AD&D's three figures abreast in a 10ft corridor. For just one part of the keep.
To fit the entire map, hill and all, takes something like 54x42 squares - with the smallest scale, that's 4'6"x3'6". 9'x7' with 5' squares.
That's not a "battle map", that's a goddamn TABLE.
Also, the "draw your own map" thing is about the individual buildings - they give a sample map for the guildhouse. It's a 1 square=2' grid. At full scale, that would make the keep 22'6"x17'6". Since I'm a filthy yuropoor I'm gonna convert that into metric: 6,75m x 5,25m.
That's not even a table, that's a fucking ROOM. I've LIVED in places that are smaller than that.
Honestly, you'd probably be better off just buying some model buildings and building a keep yourself.
I figure that the best method might be just getting one of those sand tables that they talk about in the introduction to Chainmail and a bunch of 2' wooden blocks to build the buildings with.Maybe pick up some actual castle terrain models for the walls and keep itself, but that feels slightly more difficult to get.
And a shitload of figurines, of course. Googling around gives me 27 figures for a Battlesystem game, which I think is 1:10? So there's something like 252 fighters in there. (Including the castellan and priest in that, obviously.)
It's a bit fuzzier than that, though, since most of that "gold" is going to be from monsters and thus in that way it's more like, say, 2E onwards.
And if you want to use your XP as currency then you LOSE the XP, although you can sell stuff to get XP in return.
It's not really GP=XP, as such - maybe more XP=>GP?
It's still a fairly interesting modern example of a dungeon crawl, though.
Be as descriptive as possible, and encourage your players to be descriptive of their actions as well. This does not limit their freedom but it allows you to plant the seeds of plot hooks and improvise on their actions.
Maybe you should try a more railroad approach at first, just to ease them into dealing with the freedom to do anything. Sounds like they are just spoiled by video games and need to reconnect with their creative side.
The amount of preparation you put into a sandbox campaign vs how much fun it is almost follows a bell curve. You can try to totally wing it which poses obvious problems or overprepare, which leaves you shuffling through pages of notes every time the players ask you something. Maybe run a module or 2 two get your "style" down before handmaking a while campaign.
The trick is finding what balance works for you personally, and that will only come through experience, hang in there.
Also if your group is accusing you of "bad GMing" without offering constructive advice they are dicks.
Alright, thank you all for your advice.
I'll see what I can do if we manage to continue this.
It was just a bit disheartening due to preparing quite a map full of things to do(after 2-3 sessions of a smaller locale).
I'm not sure if I really asked for too many details.
The exact situation was them almost returning to civilization. The entire experience was tiring and they're quite exhausted. It's almost nightfall and the village is closing the gates, but waiting for them a bit longer (due to a run-in with some of them earlier).
The party is overlooking the village and I ask them what they do. They want to rest. Okay, go inside, talk to them and get an inn recommendation, I say. They want to rest though. I get that, but how do you do that? This way it sounds you want to sleep on the ground in feont of the village.
Cue to argument about asking too many questions and that I should master for once instead of asking questions.
Now, I get them. They were tired and exhausted and wanted to rest. I should have probably handwaved them through the npc introductions, but I just felt unconfortable taking away player choice and just assuming what they want to do. It just felt kind of out of nowhere.
Was I too meticulous? Should I have just fast-forwarded all that and said "you ask around for the best Inn, do this and that, and voila, rooms for the night"?
unless they have a map of the town or have been there before they should at least have to ask someone to point them in the direction of an inn if there isnt one obviously in visual range. Doesnt have to be a full conversation, just like:
>DM: You enter the town gates, etc
>PC: we want to ask a guard where a cheap inn is
>DM: the guard points you to toward the Shitting Ogre Inn and says the innkeeper will give you a free beer if they say "Dan sent 'em"
Wouldnt even take a full minute
>I don't think short sighted goofball is "realistic,"
If you're the kind of person who thinks going down into a literal deathtrap dungeon filled with horrifying things that want to eat you face for a very slim chance of surviving the trip because "hey, it's a way to get a lot of money quick" sounds like a great career opportunity, you might not have the best judgment or foresight.
It seems to me that that kind of near-suicidal idiot is just the sort of person who would simply go on spending his money until one day he went back to the chest in his room for more and realized it was running dry, and just go "Welp, time to go adventure some more!"
I like to give my players quests that require them to enter the deadly dungeons, if they were just after loot and nothing else they could just spend the whole campaign robbing the town.
wasnt dark souls 1 like five totally different dungeons connected by a hubworld? I think the earlier example of diablo 1 fits better.
That would certainly be an interesting thing to try to play, I think.
>wasnt dark souls 1 like five totally different dungeons connected by a hubworld? I think the earlier example of diablo 1 fits better.
You're thinking of Demon's Souls.
Or Dark Souls 2, to some degree.
>used verticality really well.
It's such a shame that Dark Souls II was the way it was. At least Bloodborne tried for some more of that interconnectivity, I suppose?
Is that the map you're talking about? Doesn't seem too impressive verticality wise. Mostly different levels strung together at designated ingress points. Pretty mediocre, when I think verticality I think of like Blackrock Spire in World of Warcraft. Was a cool zone, two dungeons that connected together at surprising points that made you say, "Holy shit, I know that place, I didn't know it was so close by."
Take a few minutes looking at this youtube video I found in like ten minutes.
That's all collision data, by the way - it's the bits that are actually solid to the character if they were to touch them.
I'm a big fan of special metals, and perhaps even different purities / alloys of them. Mithril and moonsilver. Meteor and stargold. Adamant(-ite/-ine/-ium) and stygian. Sunsteel and heliacal. Orichalcum, crystal/crysteel/gem, scarlet, viridium/viridian, umberite, ebon(-ite), etc.
Whats a good amount of caltrops for a starting character to carry? I found a table that gives you (among other mundane items) a pair of caltrops but that seems really bad at giving you an escape route? Just two seems way easy to dodge if you're a monster about to rip an adventurers throat out.
Two will cover a couple of square, enough to block the average hallway. Also, I think monsters have to make some kind of d6 check to spot caltrops if they don't watch you throw them down.