Does anyone know if there's a splatbook with stats for the Lady of Pain? I'm about to run a campaign where the players defeat her and become the new kings of Sigil. It'd be nice to not have to make up stats on my own!
The entire point of the Lady of Pain is that there are not nor can there be stats for her. She is not an NPC, she is a force of the multiverse.
Allowing your players to engage, let alone defeat her is like allowing them to defeat entropy. It's not possible, because there's no meaningful way for a mortal to interact with such things.
what if they ascend to godhood in the course of their quest, and not so much defeat her as attempt for forcibly merge themselves into the universe's expression of entropy (the lady of pain) and hope that one of their personalities comes out on top?
>UNHHHH WAAAAAH My omnipotent force of the universe has a personification MARY SOOOOOOOOOOOO
Fuck right off. You wouldn't be saying anything of the sort if was the Duke of Pain or some other bullshit.
>You wouldn't be saying anything of the sort if was the Duke of Pain or some other bullshit.
Oh, I totally would. Walking, omnipotent, plot devices are never good.
>more powerful than the gods
>so mysterious that even the gods don't what she is
>mazing/flaying people because muh city
>so powerful that she could conquer the planes but she doesn't
Sounds pretty mary sue to me familia.
That's Killy, an android who's been walking around an unmapped giant maze for at least several thousands of years, and who can regenerate from far worse than a flaying. He's from a manga called Blame!. I recommend it.
Thats like asking if there is a splatbook with stats for god.
She's supposed to be mysterious, malign, incalculable.
The entire point is you're not supposed to know how powerful she is, and just assume she is ALL powerful. The party should never deal with her directly. If the party is dealing directly with the lady of pain, you're DMing wrong.
The party deals with the city, and mazes, and the cretin that fill sigil. That alone is enough for an entire campaign. Having the Lady as an actual character in a campaign doesn't really suit her. She's more of a *show up at the high point of the campaign, but not because it has anything to do with the PCs, she just happened to be flaying an entire section of the city and the PCs witnessed it* - type malign omnipotent being.
She's like Q that never ever talks or visits the PCs, and doesn't even acknowledge their existence.
THE god though?
not random "gods" but THE controlling entity of the entire universe.
They're things that should never be statted out. I know D&D likes to stat out everything, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a stat block for "GOD", but its a bit silly. probably can unlimited wish constantly and has 999 of all stats, and infinite AC and HP.
I've played in a game whose whole idea was that the Lady of Pain was dead (provably, completely), and what happens when that happens. Since none of us were very fond of Sigil as is (yeah, yeah, it's a cool thing and all, but no), and the implications seemed pretty damn intresting.
Nobody had a lot of fun in that campaign. Character-wise, I mean.
She has exactly zero power outside of her domain.
She doesn't even bother to fucking interact with anyone, unless they attempt to draw her ire.
>wow, look its a pit bull with rabies and aids!
>wow! Let's go fuck with it
WOW. Fucking blatant troll.
Lady of Pain is heavy rumored to be an type of being known as the Ancient Brethren.
It is also heavily implied that Ao is part of this group of beings.
If you are looking for comparable stats you can simply snag Ao's stats from any Gods-&-More-Gods dnd books, and just swap in and out the powers that make sense.
Because D&D is a game where traditionally everything is statted out, and the mindset is that if it's there, you can kill it if you pump enough iron.
This might not be a great mindset, but it's the mindset created over four decades by a game whose conventions tend to revolve around how much shit you have killed, and how much shit you can kill.
If it can be interacted with, we can kill it. And often will. This is the mindset D&D tends to create pretty easily.
Most of the gods in 3.5 were something like level 40 thing/thing/thing. None of them could say anything when Ao told them to fuck off and find his stupid rocks. Together, they had absolutely no way to oppose Ao, because Ao supposedly operates on a level (pun might be intended, but might not be) that cannot even be comprehended by even the gods.
Or something like that. I guess Ao is mostly there because lol Christianity and/or something that can tell the players to knock it off when they're killing gods.
I have no idea why anyone would want to play a campaign that is so fucked, but hey.
I can totally see that, though. Gary's having an argument with a player who's insisting that his character is allowed to do something since the rules say so. And then Gygax gets pissed and shouts "Yeah well screw you, I am now the literal god of god of gods and your character will die if he doesn't obey my will!"
Yeah, Lady of Pain at least has a reason to be there. Sigil's right in the middle, literally and figuratively, of the fuck cluster that is D&D's cosmology. There has to be a really goddamn definite answer as to why X doesn't occur, where X is any number of countless planar interactions, warring multiversal factions or shit like that. You need some omnipotent, clearly labeled force that slaps anyone, including the players, who try to rock the boat. Because if you rock this boat, it will explode and turn into a chaos vortex.
If Lady of Pain doesn't exist, Sigil can't exist as the adventure hub in harmless status quo that it is. It gets fucked instantly and then there's no Sigil.
>Allowing your players to engage, let alone defeat her is like allowing them to defeat entropy. It's not possible, because there's no meaningful way for a mortal to interact with such things.
That sounds like quitter talk to me, son!
It's bait, but I think I can get it off the hook. The answer is simple, following two rules: only 20s and max damage.
The 20s rule has two parts:
1) No d20 roll that can't critically succeed can affect the LoP, regardless of the numerical bonus. Normally, this means skill checks, and the reason should be obvious.
2) Any d20 roll that -can- critically succeed against the LoP can only do so on a 20, regardless of the numerical bonus. This covers all attack rolls and the like. Before you ask, NO: you can't trip 20s and lop off LoP's head. That house rule has no purpose here, as a deity is immune to instant death.
The max damage rule means that any and all attack dice rolled must roll their maximum values, and that means ALL of the dice damn it. Rolling a 20d6 fireball? Better Maximize it or it won't mean for shit. Got 4d10+2d8+2d6+40? Pray to the God of Luck or have a class feature to max weapon dice damage, or prepare to be disappointed.
Both rules are meant to make the LoP what she is (and has been described by many Anons so far): an untouchable, unassailable force of the universe; indeed, the LoP is the personification of Sigil. Now...add on resist all/50+ and DR 50/- and presto! She's perfect.
Pun-pun has infinite stats, you literally can't write them down because as soon as you do you've only made a lesser version of the Kobold god.
Next troll should probably try posting about how his party is going to take on pun-pun.
Please, Pun-Pun may be infinite, but he is the least form of infinite. His stats are mapped to whole numbers, and I'm sure that some enterprising min maxer could find a way to create an infinitely powerful god whose stats grow faster than pun-pun's, possibly being mapped to the real numbers.
Pun-pun is Aleph-not tier, and there are many, many more infinities.
>and I'm sure that some enterprising min maxer could find a way to create an infinitely powerful god whose stats grow faster than pun-pun's
Hmn, no. There was an attempt called the Omniificer and it failed because they discovered a faster-better pun-pun in the attempt.
Secondly the numbers in the D&D book are either whole number (1,2,3,4) or sometimes double decimal (1.25, 1.50, 1.75). And that's it. RAW in the first 20 pages of every D&D book it explains how the numbers work. No higher math than grade 2 allowed.
Played a God-killing campaign once. The reason you play it is simply because you can - the rules are there, they barely function but they're there, and when it's over you can talk about how people stopped dying because you killed the god of death.
We didn't really deal with the consequences of that one.
Kyuss was here, Vecna licks goats.
Where my worm bros at?
Here you go, full stats for the lady of pain
Kyuss is at least cool. The writers have such a boner for Vecna that he always wins, even if he loses. It's annoying.
I prefer Orcus to Vecna. He wins too, but at least gets fucked up for it. And he doesn't have the same annoying problem that Vecna and Lolth have were their divine rank keeps going up ever edition, making them less and less relevant.
>not the god of Orcs
Why is this allowed?
If you locked all the undead D&D divinities into a battleplane until one emerged, who would it be?
My vote is Atropus.
People grossly overestimate the real estate value of Sigil. Fiends might consider such a dangerous place worth fighting over, and some have so little self preservation to not care, but there are honestly not many factions who would even think they have the power to take wizard-and-greater-outsider-central over, and who lack the power to create their own portals.
It largely smacks of NOT YOUR DADDY'S D&D syndrome
>you thought fiends were pure evil? WRONG
>you thought celestials bond over the common cause of goodness? WRONG
>you thought you knew the planes? DEAD WRONG BERK
It's dripping with gimmicky anti-status quo attitude that conceals a dull setting.
>2E had the best settings.
This is probably true.
>Tritons (race) don't worship Triton (god)
Why is that allowed?
Hey random thought
Iggwilv + Graz'zt = Iuz that is to say: Powerful Mortal + Abyssal Lord = Demigod
Powerful Elf + Abyssal Lord = Lolth?
Would explain why she keeps calling the abyss her crib even though she's got more than enough power to setup shop anywhere without warring neighbors.
>Miska as her daddy?
>4 milliseconds later, there is no Sigil
Keikakudori, Sigil gets popped, knocking out the planar hub strands the planes and decimates planar travel. All dimensions are locked down and all creatures, divine or not are stranded in whatever plane they were left in to fend for themselves or parish.
Seems like an interesting setting with potential for amusing allies.
Its got too great an emphasis on metaplot and on the PCs being along for the ride instead of the primary determining factor of the story, too impersonal, and too immobile other than through metaplot stuff. Its so immobile that it needs, for whatever contrived reason, an invincible floating town guard to make sure things remain immobile.
Why do you bastards have to try and kill everything?
Why can't you just accept that no means fucking no, dammit, and no amount of magical fuckery or +X adamantium greatsword is going to kill some things?
I thought Planescape felt that Fiends were Evil, although the only pure evil ones are the sociopathic scheming Yugoloths. The Baatezu and Tanarri are equal parts Evil and Law/Chaos respectively.
I think Planescape even has a little adventure where a Tanarri ends up infected by a Planatear's Divine Goodness, messing it up metaphysically as it starts to become something else.
Sounds like the start of an amber game honestly.
And honestly, all the alternative suggestions for how SIgil isn't constantly getting buttfucked by the major forces of good and evil constantly tend to be even more dumb and contrived than the Lady of Pain.
I remember one idea I saw being that people just don't fight in Sigil because they just don't.
>Why do you bastards have to try and kill everything?
Because that's quitter talk you fucking pussy.
Accepting that something is stronger than you, and that you will never beat it, is forfeiting your self-determination.
If there is a will, there's a way, and I will that the multiverse run octarine with the blood of every entity.
Ah. I never gave a shit about Planescape and Sigil's Metaplot. I just thought the setting and faction and flavor was cool as shit. And talking the Cant is so stupidly fun I really can't get enough of it.
Representing your faction, debating the philosphy your character doesn't really care about other than street cred with your party members, exploring the city and the planes, calling people cutter and berk, getting into arguments about how Sigil is pronounced. Shit is just fun as fuck for me.
>Does anyone know if there's a splatbook with stats for the Lady of Pain?
>stats for the Lady of Pain?
heh, heh, he, heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ha!
oh, that is hilarious.
look I'm going to say what has probably already been said a dozen times or more, but it bears saying again:
the LoP has no stats because the developers purposely chose not to ever stat her because she is "you lose forever" there is no beating her. there is no resisting her, if she wants you dead, you die, and it doesn't matter if you are lvl1, or lvl20, you piss her off, you die, and if you REALLY piss her off, she might maze you.
You don't need a reason, contrived or not, for why Sigil isn't "buttfucked by the forces of good or evil" constantly. There are enough fiends and other such beings with teleport without error and summoning and such to shit up nearly any corner of any setting beyond repair in anywhere from a minute or so (if someone casts Gate and then they teleport there) to chain summoning.
I forget, the metaplot says that yugoloths are the sole source of fiends who can teleport. So just say "lol yugoloths did it."
>the developers purposely chose not to ever stat her because their setting concept was poorly developed and would fall apart if you looked at it so they needed an omnipotent plot device to maintain the status quo
Yugoloths are far too true evil, cunning and clever to get themselves mazed, berk, doncha know.
I wonder if it ever covered whether you could just stab yourself in the head to be reborn in your home plane, resurrected, respawn as a phylactery, or whatever; presumably you cannot perform actions enough to kill yourself.
Yeah but what happens to them. When they 'port out is it straight into another maze which continuously happens ad infintum or do they just go on their merry way as if they escaped the maze in a traditional sense?
One must first take a roster of all the factions that are not comprised of races of Greater Teleporters (ie fiends and such are automatically off the list), and then a roster of all the factions that stand a decent chance of holding their own in a dysfunctional planar metropolis filled with extremely powerful supernaturals.
Basically, the only people that'd be likely to care are Primes whose pissant armies would be able to make zero progress anyway and who probably couldn't find a way to get in.
Generally speaking there are already a dozen or so almost-planar-hubs that connect to several different planes, all to useful destinations already. Why don't occupying forces just take those?
Yggdrasil, Mt Olympus, Oerth by itself, The mazes of mechanus, fuck Graz'zt even has a known map of huge portions of the infinite staircase, City of Brass, City of Glass, Oceanus. The real question should have been a long long time ago:
>Why bother with sigil? There are hundreds of other just as useful places with controllable portals.
Sigil is basically instantaneous. The problem with walking the planes is you actually need to physically walk it. Not to mention those places have the same problem Sigil does to a lesser extent, that they are already inhabited by being that don't really want you walking through their shit.
And of course, Sigil is basically all of those things put together. You wouldn't just want it for yourself, you would also want to deny your enemies access to it.
Sigil's very description clearly stats how all it's portals are in flux. It may take an hour or a decade by all of it's portal rotate in and out. Granted sigil will always possess a portal to anywhere, but it's means of entry and key will be different.
That by itself makes it useless to any would-be invader.
This is a summary of the sort of attitude as to why people start to hate Planescape. Sigil is neither unique nor important enough to think that its presence or absence would "disrupt the multiverse."
The factions that could A) stand to significantly benefit from holding Sigil (the baatezu being able to ferry pissant dretches around, for example, does not count) and B) have a vague chance of starting to think that they might have the powers and numbers to do so are:
1. The SJ Beholders (but they get around just fine in their ships anyway, especially when they are mainly content to fite each other)
2. The Slaadi (who, of course, have no organization or coherent plans and are proud of it)
3. POSSIBLY manner of uber necromancer army of doom from Ravenloft, were they able to escape Ravenloft
4. POSSIBLY the Sorcerer Kings and their minions, were they able to escape Athas
That's about it. Almost everyone else is either too weak, too few in number, too local or don't stand to benefit at all (ie. they already have racial Teleport Without Error, etc).
Because it has gates to anywhere.
Gate to krynn, grab a kender, dump it in ravenloft.
Grab a Greek hero, drop him in to fight dritzz.
Or...move an undead army of zombie gnolls from gnollrealm, to invade greyhawk.
>What got up your ass?
>Were you just waiting for an excuse to use that or something?
You left yourself open to a burn baby, just take it and move on, like your mom and dad.
...Are you insulting yourself?
>You left yourself open to a burn baby, just take it and move on, like your mom and dad.
Teleport without Error/Greater Teleport don't work that way. They only allow you to teleport anywhere on a particular layer of a plane.
PLANESHIFT is the ability you're thinking of, and even that isn't foolproof: it only puts you on the first layer of any given plane (so, no, you can't Planeshift into Graz'zt's realm and then kill him, you have to Planeshift to the Abyss, then find a portal or other path through the intervening layers).
The main reason to hold Sigil is that it's the City of Doors. Portals lead everywhere, and if you know which ones and what their keys are, you have a backdoor into everyone's house.
>PLANESHIFT is the ability you're thinking of
No, I'm thinking of Teleport w/o error. While the mental imagery of great armies marching across the planes is a great visual, its more like specks blinking across the planes.
You'll notice I also mentioned that it takes about a week, or however long, for demons to utterly trash anywhere in the universe with chain summoning, the complete math is discussed in Reverse Dungeon. Demons avoid doing this in general for mere social reasons, and for the same reason they'd be just as likely or unlikely to try to take Sigil as Greyhawk or wherever else.
Of course, demons (oh sorry, tanar'ri) will fight anyone anywhere at any time for any reason, so yeah, there'd presumably be sporadic fighting in Sigil, but it is not a particularly good deal to take Sigil, not to mention it would be the most unsecure base of operations in the multiverse.
As mentioned, it'd be a good way to ferry armies of pissant dretches and lemures and such, which are already A) unable to hit anything, B) unable to damage anything, C) totally ignored in 99% of planar fights since the enemy can simply fly above them.
>Portals lead everywhere, and if you know which ones and what their keys are, you have a backdoor into everyone's house.
Fiend fortresses are already described as typically having few pathways from room to room, so you'd have to find a separate portal for each room. Even then, they could just leave with a moment's thought, and then an arbitrary number of fiends could show up to reinforce their position and re invade through whatever portal you used -- there's not much point.
You can't get eternally flayed, though. Nothing and no-one comes back from being flayed. She rips up your body, your soul, your very existence. Being flayed is like the dm asking for your character sheet and running it through the shredder.
It's one of the only ways for the Nameless One to die and not come back, in PS:T.
Nope, they're not overestimating at all. Sigil has doors that can open anywhere in existence. Whoever can seize Sigil can manipulate and use those doors to drop forces anywhere at all. Why wage a war across the lower planes when you can just drop your elite soldiers right into the enemy leader's bedroom while he's occupied with some depravity?
There's no defense against the faction that can control Sigil, they can hit you anywhere at any time. Sigil is practically the "Win!" button for any planar power.
Fortunately, only the Lady has power over the doors, and she is not enough of a person to actually want to use them for anything.
Sage for blatant troll thread.
>A battle with The Lady of Pain
>Roll new characters
I have had the thought that being mazed could be an interesting thing for a campaign, but fighting Her Eminence, much less beating her? Fucking kek
In AD&D 2e, pre-Squaring-the-Circle, Sigil, the River Styx, the Infinite Staircase, the Great Road, and other planar pathways are very important even to those with Teleport without Error due to the mechanics of those spells:
>Teleport Without Error
>This spell is similar to the teleport spell. The caster is able to transport himself, along with the material weight noted for a teleport spell, to any known location in his home plane with no chance for error. The spell also enables the caster to travel to other planes of existence, but any such plane is, at best, "studied carefully." This assumes that the caster has, in fact, actually been to the plane and carefully perused an area for an eventual teleportation without error spell. The table for the teleport spell is used, with the caster's knowledge of the area to which transportation is desired used to determine the chance of error.
Thus, a baatezu's Teleport without Error is only "without Error" in Baator. Traveling to other planes requires the caster to have personally been there and perused it carefully, and even then, there is still a 2% chance of instant death (see the AD&D 2e Teleport spell).
As per AD&D 2e's Faces of Evil: The Fiends, this actually is instant death for weaker yugoloths and tanar'ri, and even more powerful yugoloths and tanar'ri and most baatezu will have to spend time reforming if they die off their home plane.
Thus, planar pathways are important for allowing teleporters to reach a place and study it first-hand, and then enabling them to teleport there without a 2% chance of instant death.
Additionally, as for a very serious and *exceedingly* comprehensive take on how the Lady of Pain might be defeated, Planewalker.com has a highly comprehensive guide, which is roughly 95% based on canonical material and 5% based on Mimir.net and Planewalker.com fanon:
>Why wage a war across the lower planes
Almost all engagements are fought for their own sake, since almost everyone involved can blink a thousand or more miles away, or to a different plane, each round.
Certainly, almost all Blood War engagements fought in any of the intermediate planes are going to be because your borderline useless auxiliaries need babysitting or because both sides are too prideful or consumed by bloodlust. Its just something to do, especially since neither side will be permanently destroyed in such an engagement.
>There's no defense against the faction that can control Sigil,
Gross exaggeration. Occasionally an enemy may stumble upon a portal to something important, which will probably be gone by the time he alerts his higher ups, or may turn into unlimited fiend works.
The main significance of Sigil is to Primes.
>Thus, planar pathways are important for allowing teleporters to reach a place and study it first-hand, and then enabling them to teleport there without a 2% chance of instant death.
Isn't there always a 1% chance of instant death?
Spelljammer was such a pleasant surprise for me.
It was something the designers was pressured by shoddy management to rush out (wanted to take advantage of space stuff) in barely any time at all, but they were skilled enough to nail it.
>Sigil is neither unique nor important enough to think that its presence or absence would "disrupt the multiverse."
Nobody is saying that.
Sigil is important to Sigil.
If you want an adventure in Sigil-like setting, you need LoP-like entity because otherwise any such setting instantly explodes. Even from just, say, demon vs devil Blood War exploding into it immediately.
If you don't want to play in Sigil, then it's and Lady's existence are completely irrelevant to you.
I misspoke there; I should have said "and alternatively enabling them to travel there manually without a 2% chance of instant death."
Teleport without Error specifically limits the caster to "studied carefully" at best.
If someone wishes to reach a specific planar location without that 2% chance of instantaneous death from Teleport without Error, a method apart from that spell is necessary.
Spelljammer and Planescape are fully compatible and even referenced together in page 32 of the Planewalker's Handbook. It is probably a good idea to use them together so as to make even the Prime Material Plane feel wild and exotic.
Setting crossover if desired, very aberration heavy weirdness (my personal favorite is an ooze creature that blends multiple creatures together into a hellish collective), fondness for spaceships or artillery pieces, and the most subtly useful for the DM of all -- the ability to use the same battlemap over and over again in new fresh situations.
Hey teej, I once saw a reference in an obscure 2e Dark Sun book that talks about how difficult it is to enter and leave Athas's portion of the multiverse, anyone know where this was? Can't seem to find it.
D&D is a generally nothing but a masturbatory power fantasy for people with little to no power. So if you put something outside of players reach in it they feel powerless again. And if it's a cold, distant female figure they feel humiliated.
The Planewalker's Handbook says this, but I'm not sure what DS book you're referencing.
I'm pretty sure that LoP being (supposedly) female is a main reason why she is hated. She basically serves as an abrahamic sort of deity keeping the setting in order but instead of an old guy with a beard she's a chick.
In this specific case, it definitely fits the use of a buzzword.
One anon asks why the setting is appealing. Instead of replying with even a single sentence explaining why they view it as enjoyable and why it appeals to them, they simply reiterate that they find it 'fun' which is essentially repeating the question asked as an answer.
>"why do you like fun?"
>"hurr bcos iz fun durr"
>I'm pretty sure that LoP being (supposedly) female is a main reason why she is hated.
So, the screwball Freud interpretation was serious, not satire? Nah, Planescape is hated on its own merits, not due to the sexism bogeyman.
> She basically serves as an abrahamic sort of deity keeping the setting in order but instead of an old guy with a beard she's a chick.
There's the Dark Powers and the Phlogstion, the LoP isn't unusual in terms of 2e settings having to deal with gods now being virtually omnipotent + either having their own pantheons or something to protect them. Any godlike figure, much less an overgod figure, would be widely hated if he hanged out at Waterdeep or whatever, soulflaying people.
The Wall of the Faithless elicits similar responses to the LoP, come to think of it.
I agree with you. The LoP merely looks feminine in a human standard but might and probably isn't one.
The LoP is more likely androgynous, and in-keeping with the whole biblical theme, this makes sense as angels were androgynous.
This all just reeks of anon being afraid of vagina dentata
>one anons opinion is the bench mark and all others are and should be memetic replies
That's the S&S genre for ya: nothing is sacred. Though killing is only one of many solutions to most problems...
I always pictured her as a manifestation of the place.
Maybe female looking, but more of a personality given " form".
Not like a real female. Real females are gross of course. ( I hear they bleed in their underwear).
Sigil is the pin keeping all the planes of reality togeather, the spire in the center is like the toothpick keeping a massive sandwhich togeather. The Lady of Pain is basicly the personification of this, in effect The Lady is the personification of Nuclear Force. You can't kill her.
Sure but it's also incredibly finnicky with mechanics for the intricacies of space travel, leaving and entering atmospheres, solar systems aka crystal spheres, and the most unforgiving thing, the helms. God I hate helms by raw. Nothing like taking the fun out of playing your caster by making it suck so you can actually go places.
Actually a random thought having just finished reading that list of possible ways of killing her and the possible outcomes, has anyone considered that she might be like a Lich? With Sigil being her phalactery?
I'd rather Spelljammer deal with "real" space and just put magic on it. However I was listing the reasons I liked it, rather than trying to argue why anyone else should like it.
>mechanics for the intricacies of space travel, leaving and entering atmospheres,
Can you refresh my memory as to what the problem with it is?
>Nothing like taking the fun out of playing your caster by making it suck so you can actually go places.
You need like what, 40 dudes or so to crew your ship... you can't find one damn spellcaster? Does your entire party lack henchmen? The fuck is going on?
The PCs don't even have to keep track of the intricacies of the ship, it can just be a central base that move saround.
It does deal with 'real' space, as long as you don't leave the sphere.
And I believe the 'Tale of the Comet' supplement all takes place inside one sphere, because there's no upper limit on the size of a sphere.
>It does deal with 'real' space, as long as you don't leave the sphere.
Eeh, well you retain your own atmosphere, etc. etc. Plus crystal spheres aren't much to my taste, I don't see the use. The phlogstion could just be a hyperspace type dimension used to convey SJs between solar systems in a reasonable time frame, etc.
>Can you refresh my memory as to what the problem with it is?
Far too detailed and intricate rules that are just a pain to use. When you're playing a space opera, you don't care much about leaving and re-entry. You just do. Maybe you're "In for a bumpy ride" landing onto a planet, but for most it's not even a thing of note. You're in space, and you go down to a planet, or vice versa. The Millenium Falcon in Star Wars didn't need to figure out exiting and re-entry calculations, that would be boring. Guess what, those rules are boring.
Han Solo talked a lot about how calculations were important to safe space flight, actually.
But yeah, rules for stuff may be considered bad by some people, I guess? Who knew. Can't really relate to you there, I'm afraid -- better too many rules (which you can ignore) for absolutely essential things like planetfall than "lol just wing it," since I don't need a book to tell me "lol just wing it."
>becoming kings of sigil
you do know that the only person who is keeping the gods and other creeps out of sigil is LoP right? If you get rid of her than sigil will no longer be sigil
Two separate but related mythologies using cognate words: one in which orcs were a kind of undead thing (inspired D&D god), one in which they were a kind of troll/ogre (inspired Tolkien race which inspired D&D race).
>Tritons (race) don't worship Triton (god)
They did in the first edition! You have no idea how long I've saved that fact.
But since then D&D moved away from real deity names; for deities that is.
You know players can hire hirelings, right? That they can hire somebody specifically to be on the helm if the PCs don't want to use up their spells?
Triton's weird. He only shows up in that one bit in the Triton description, but not in Deities and Demigods/Legends and Lore, nor in On Hallowed Ground, nor in Monster Mythology.
You know, I think Orcus really was the name of a deity of some kind, and Orcus and Demogorgon were mentioned in Paradise Lost, while Lucifer traveled through the chaos realm, iirc?
10 entire seconds of my life sacrificed to Wikipedia says you're right. Roman/Etruscan god of broken oaths (curious connection to warlocks there).
He was often conflated with gods of death and the underworld, and that directly inspired Orcus. However the Latin god and underworld legends also inspired tales of bogeymen that ate human flesh, which inspired Tolkien's use of the word.
Caster hirelings are pretty rare (I don't think any exist by default other than the 1e sage, not that the DM can't introduce them in his game), but caster henchmen are fairly normal.
I'd agree, personally, but it all depends on the interpretation you want.
Maybe part of "doesn't matter" is that he ignores that rule? Of course, the "you fucking lose" part should cover that, too.
The terminology is different, but the idea is the same: Let the PCs hire spellcasters for their crew.
Interestingly, by RAW only wizards and clerics can power spelljammer helms, which means rangers, paladins, bards, druids, etc. cannot.
The lady of Pain he no stats she is just a plot device that is needed for Sigil to exist. As Sigil is basically just a town but everything in it has over 9000 levels compared to normal towns. Basically someone had the idea to make a hub city for high level adventurers where they can just take a rest while superheroing between two plain travels. However everyone realized that the existence for such a place defines common sense when inserted into the setting. So basically they came up with the laziest hand-weave answer which is the lady of pain, a plot device NPC who never does anything but babysits Sigil for absolutely no reason just keep it working so that PCs can have their over the top shit.
I bet the Lady of pain is sick an tired of her job really...
not really, lady is at the same time a defender and a prisoner. Everyone is in reallity happy that LoP is in sigil because if she was not she would carve out a new peace of land and given how poerfull she is anyone could be a victime
Technically she doesn't have one because of how vital she is to Planescape and how OPASFUCKPLSNERF she is, but there are stats for her.
And they make her really OP. Seriously, you just need to graze her clothes and you automatically are mazed forever.
Also how's her private life look? Yeah being THE TRUEST Neutral is hard work for her, but does she have like a hobby when she's not mazing people or having them skinned when her shadow falls on them?
I bet she plays Scrabble with her Dabus. People love Scrabble.
But... they do
>Selune and the Wayfarerers control the infinite staircase
>Mt olympus is mostly greek god controlled
>Maze of mechanus is controlled by modrons and ants
>City of brass is under the control of the Vizier of the Elemental Fire
>Oceanus is a goddess domain
The Lady of Pain isn't a character
Or a monster
She is a force of nature
Saying 'I will kill the lady of pain!' Is like saying 'I will kill gravity and air!'
And yes, I'm sure there is magical spells that let you do that
But just because you can
Doesnt mean you should
Because it will literally ruin everything and everyone.
What happens if the Lady of Pain dies?
The flood gates open. All the gods from everywhere invade. They start a war that will cause the total and utter destruction of the maltverse and everyone in it
BAD END FOR EVERYONE EVER.
I'm, not going to be party to this, Have fun getting mazed, op.
>Force of Nature
That for some reason looks like a giant (even larger than amazonian levels of height) woman with nice tracts of land that correspond to her power level. And by giant woman with nice tracts of land, I say she's really attractive. And she's still single.
Yes, I will be mazed, or flayed, or both.
Yes, it was worth saying it.
mazes are creatod for the person, they are not some unified thing. So you might have a maze that is a straight line but is thousands of miles long for thouse who easily navigate em
Yes, THE God, in at least 3 ways: abrahamic, this guy who, in game, is secretly pulling the out-of-game DM's strings, as well as basically the DM himself statted to be fought from in-universe. You're clearly preaching from a point of inexperience here.
Some of them are reused, however. Presumably either average people are similar enough to warrant being dropped in the same maze sometimes, or maybe mazes aren't personalized per say so much as designed with the capabilities of the prisoner in mind, which would logically mean that average people would mostly end up in the same handful of mazes while experienced adventurers, being skilled and equipped to handle challenges insurmountable to most, would be dropped in rarer or even custom-made mazes designed to negate their abilities.
what if it turns out the lady of pain is just an owlbear in a costume?
well yes, no point in not re-using a maze that works for a group of people, i belive this is the reason why TNO got a generic maze, because she knew that sooner or later he is going to bust out of it and just wanted to remind him who is boss in sigil
The Lady of Pain is less an entity and more an personification of setting rules. She exists for the purposes of explaining how the relative peace of Sigil is maintained, nothing more -- a "Biggest fish" to point to. Her wackier rules are essentially little bits of extra fluff
Attempts to treat her as a character usually fall flat. Attempts to kill her usually fall flat because you have to treat her as something approaching a normal entity to run that way.
If you really want to have a campaign end in defeating Her Serenity, you can do it (This is D&D, nothing's stopping the DM from doing ANYTHING), but you're best off if she's a campaign-length puzzle, not a combat encounter. Assemble the pieces of a Rube Goldberg machine while preventing/avoiding direct confrontation, because in direct confrontation, you lose.
Yeah, "maze" is a spell that works like any Planar Shift spell, which in Planescape DO NOT WORK against creatures when those creatures are on their home planes - in Sigil that means that The Lady of Pain and Dabuses are the only creatures explicitly immune to being Mazed (and maybe the factol of the Guvnors.)
this, the Lady of Pain is a back-built "GM Panic Button" not some Mary Sue, or some essential plot-point, or whatever grief you think you have with this character. For that reason she has no stats beyond "you lose" but that's fine because it is entirely possible to run an entire campaign or even several long campaigns in Sigil and never even catch a glimpse of her. Because the only reason the gm would ever have to evoke her would be if either the players have gone completely out-of-control and he has no other options, or the players are actively seeking a fight with the LoP, and if it's the latter, then you brought this on yourself and deserve whatever horrible fate awaits you.
Why does the rest of this thread have such a hard time understanding this?
I'm fairly sure he has to cast a broken shapeshifting spell whenever he wants to improve his attributes by some integer.
So he doesn't technically have infinite stats, he just has arbitrarily high stats, which is an entirely different animal.
What if you worship her, but you do it outside of Sigil?
If a million people worshiped her and lived, what would happen? Given that the worship of a million people grants godhood, and gods gain more power through worship, what would happen?
>The Wall of the Faithless elicits similar responses to the LoP, come to think of it.
I was actually perfectly fine with the Wall until MotB railroaded me and my celestial buddy out of blowing it up just cause "muh status quo" even though it is just a video game and you don't have to incorporate an optional ending back into the RPG continuity if you don't wanna.
A million worshippers also doesn't necessarily guarantee godhood, and we've no way of knowing for certain that Her Serenity isn't already a deity of some caliber. I think there are probably already plenty of folks out on the planes who worship Her, given her status as one of the most powerful entities in the multiverse.
Ugh, I hear you. Personally I always disliked it from the start, but the way you were prevented from doing anything about it really rustled my jimmies.