I just copy paste this edition
Warmachine/Hordes Books, No Quarter, & IKRPG
>textuploader <dot> com / 5f980
PP Youtube (gameplay tutorials, tournament coverage, and announcements)
List building at
The Giant List of Podcasts and Blogs
Table of contents for all NQ issues
Lexicanum Iron Kingdoms Lore wiki:
Just got a starter box of Menoth with Kreoss, a Vanquisher, a Crusader, a little dude (Repenter, I think?), and 5 cinerators. I'm gonna try to expand the list with a choir and 2 vassals. Anything else 100% required that I'm missing?
Also, anyone know a good paint tutorial for menoth? I'm not sure what colors to use, mainly
At first I thought you were joking and was about to berate you for being a troll.
Then I saw that you weren't joking.
>Warders lose WM
>EE nerfed into the dirt
>Runeshapers nerfed slightly
Oy vey the goyim weren't buying enough Doomy3!
>Splatter Boar preemptively nerfed
Thank god, I wasn't looking forward to PigMeta let me tell you what.
Well as for paint scheme, go with what you want. I like gold and red, and the silver and bone compliment them. Go with what you like. If you stick with pKreoss, errants, UA, Rhupert and the Covenant are a good choice. They're a little expensive but defender's ward is great on them. Also, you'll be able to slot in pSeverious who is one of my favorite casters.
If anything it got buffed!
Sure you can't force a warbeast to just kill something through rampager jank, but if I do frenzy its probably going to be more likely that I lose an activation now.
As for Warders, the jury is split. Half the people think it was too far. The other half think "About time!"
I really don't think Warders should replace all the units in TB, and I don't think PP has ever changed the pts value of a model so far.
That said, I think they are appropriately costed now. However, it doesn't matter what I say. People, by and large, have made up their minds on it. Wherever you stand on that line, your gonna have to deal with it.
Also some tests are being done with other models for other erratta. Not all of them make it to the document. If things get egregious, then it will accelerate a change.
I'm not anyone special.
Alright, sounds good; thanks. I really like the cream/ivory white with the maroon and gold, so I'll try to figure out what paints to use.
The covenant is the book, right?
Also, just an overall question; how difficult is it to switch out warcasters? Do they really require an entirely different army? I think Feora and Harbinger are pretty cool, too, and I might end up getting one or the other if subbing them isn't a big deal.
As someone who's most common opponents are Trollbloods, I think the Warder nerf was a complete kick in the nuts to the faction as a whole.
Other lists didn't suddenly become more viable just because the best unit in faction got nerfed, because the quality of the opposition hasn't changed. The faction is just shittier now.
Something like the EE nerf, while a huge insult to people who played it since that exact list comp is now actually impossible, is at least understandable because it only hurt one fringe list and didn't affect the entire fucking faction.
Losing battle driven would've been fine.
Now we are stuck at shitville where warder players can't fight out of a wet paper bag, and every faction that couldn't crack warders still can't crack warders.
Fuck this "negative play experience" BS. This errata would've been a 10/10 if it weren't for warders losing weaponmaster
The funny thing is that warder nerf actually makes the faction imbalance even greater.
Out top casters are affected very little by Warder nerfs, but our relatively bottom tier casters like P Madrak and E Grissel are falling down the pits.
E Grissel will never see the light of day again now that she doesn't have a feat again.
Well look forward to the next eratta. I'm sure a whole 6 months of Cryx domination will mean hell to pay for baenz.
But I really dont envy PP right now. Unless Champions becomes the premier tournament format, the creation of new content is exponentially getting harder.
Especially with such a negative reaction to any attempt at balance.
Problem with the balance is that the the mission statement and the actual actions are different.
Also creation of new content is not fucking difficult. PP's just been stubborn as hell for it.
Man O War support and Warjack support has been requested for Khador since how many years? Over a decade now?
Making a unit for Pigs that's not utter garbage? Is it that really difficult or are they not even trying?
Finally, I really don't want erratas to models anymore. There's too much. No longer are erratas doing rule clarifications or making things "work as intended", but now it's just a micro edit to redesign.
I personally think the pistol wraith change was a step toward a bad direction. The entire model's purpose has changed now. It's time for a mkiii so the game can be rebuilt on a clean slate. Mistakes rectified, rules cleaned up.
Honestly she looks pretty fun, even if not very competitive.
She also seems a lot like vindictus, complete with a feat that can be absolute trash, although she can personally contribute more
>I think the Warder nerf was a complete kick in the nuts to the faction as a whole.
They was too strong. Now they're fine. "But my other units aren't as strong as warders was" isn't a valid argument, because they was TOO strong.
And now they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, thus MMM lists are now competitively defunct because they don't have a good anvil unit to anchor everything around anymore.
On the one hand, I'm glad I don't play trolls.
On the other hand, this feeling is oddly reminiscent of my 40k days when a new shit codex would come out and I'd think the exact same thing.
Pigs have gotten a lot to help them though. Both those new lights are sweet, their Battle Engine is nice, and their caster releases have been very good. Plus Ark's NQ tier, which is hilarious to run.
Warders are still a fine Anvil unit. They're just no longer also the Hammer unit at the same time.
Like, Tuffalo are one of their Hammer units, and you're likely to start seeing them again.
I mean, I agree that Troll infantry need something to get up to snuff, but Warders were pretty obviously straight up superior to everything else.
Now, I'm personally hoping this is a sign of things to come and other WM units start seeing some loss of capability.
Hi all! I was looking to get into Warmachine, but I'm not sure what force I would like to play. With that being said, what would you recommend a complete noob buy to get set up, beyond a rulebook? Sorry for being a newfag but I thought this would be the best place to ask. Any help is greatly appreciated
>how difficult is it to switch out warcasters? Do they really require an entirely different army?
In Protectorate? It depends. You can for example play those errants that were mentioned with any caster. It's just that Harbinger and the casters with Defenders Ward make them shine the most. Feora2 (I assume that's the one you mean?) likes her lists a bit different, with lots of jacks and maybe a unit of Zaelots.
Let's just remove their attack all together while we're at it. Obviously things that don't die to a stiff breeze can't be allowed to hurt things, that could create a Negative Play Experience and hurt someone's fee-fees!
Anvil units aren't meant to do damage, man. They're meant to absorb it. And Warders are still just as hard to kill as they always have been.
You do realize the problem with Warders was they were an impossible to kill unit that could regularly get to POW15-16 WM hits, right?
Like, with Warders as they were every other Troll unit might as well not have existed. Now, do those other units deserve some buffs? Of course, and hopefully they'll get them.
And hopefully other high POW WM infantry will start to see their shit nerfed as well.
You don't need to kill stuff super well to be an anvil. The point of an anvil is to be tough and hard to kill.
The Anvil holds, the Hammer smashes.
You are seriously overstating it with shocktroopers as a comparison. You can still stick them on an objective and watch them never damnwell die and they go up to Pow 12 if anyone so much as scratches them.
Then drop their point cost by 3-4 if they can't kill things.
An 11-point pillowfisted unit is only an "anvil" in the same way an 11-point unit with ARM30 but no attacks whatsoever and .5" movement is an "anvil".
They're shit. MMM wasn't overpowered to begin with, now it's just shit.
>On the other hand, this feeling is oddly reminiscent of my 40k days when a new shit codex would come out and I'd think the exact same thing.
That means the problem is your attitude. Units are not supposed to invalidate each other like they do (by design, I assume) in 40k. They're supposed to complement each other. And the things Warders synergized with were the Stone (which EVERYTHING in Trolls synergizes with) and more Warders. I'm fairly certain the 2xWarders 1xChampions builds would have been 3xWarders if that was possible.
There are better ways to do the errata, most certainly.
However, I think PP is very specifically trying to avoid altering stats and point costs in their errata. Even in their changing stuff, they've only added or removed special rules on models, they've never increased or decreased stats or costs.
And I think they're going to avoid that. Adding/removing rules is much easier on their card format that changing costs or stats is.
>And hopefully other high POW WM infantry will start to see their shit nerfed as well.
That would be fine if it had come as part of some sort of sweeping rebalance that doesn't leave people out in the cold with no warning and no upside.
Some sort of "new edition" of the rules if you will. But what am I saying, that's blasphemy and we should succumb to the 40k-style surprise nerf/buff fuck-you-the-models-you-bought-are-useless-you-stupid-goy errata model.
It's honestly the first time they've done it, and I don't think anyone's surprised they got nerfed, so much as angry at the kind of nerf they got.
And Warders are hardly worthless now, they're just not going to be FA2 in every list you run. It hurt the shit out of the faction, yes, but several casters still like them.
Well I'd say: Don't buy that rulebook. You can get the rules for free from the PP website (http://privateerpress.com/the-rules-are-free) and all models come with their own rules.
Beyond that, which faction you want to play is largely up to your personal preference. What kind of play-style do you prefer? What kind of models do you like?
Also bear in mind, that the selection of your warcaster/warlock is just as important as your selection of faction.
No, they are not like that hypothetical unit.
They can engage people fine and pow 12 isn't anything to scoff over. Other infantry and the lighter jacks don't like pow 12. Just don't expect to see them tearing heavies apart in a single turn any more.
Seems like a pretty blatant grab to get people to buy other things in Trollbloods.
Still want to play EE since you dumped a billion dollars into it? Well lucky for you I've got a Mountain King to sell you that totally hasn't been sitting in the warehouse since it's release day!
What's that, Warders are fulfilling all your infantry needs so you don't have to spend a gorillion dollars on sub-par medium based infantry? Well let's just nip that in the bud right now.
Oh, people think Doomy3 is just Runes2.0, and everyone already owns Runes? Let's just adjust it down a little bit and see what happens.
I'm all for proactive game balancing, but just clobbering a faction with the nerf bat is a shady as fuck way to do it, especially considering that if you remove EE from the equation the Troll tournament presence may as well be nil.
People have already figured out you can play EE just fine, you just lose a Pyre and Slag. The change to the tier list in no way encourages people to go to tier four for the MK, it just stops the tier from being 11 points up.
They specifically changed Warders because they didn't like how they were the only infantry troll players were taking, yes. But the kind of people who are going to modify their lists based on this change are a pretty small minority of the playerbase, so it doesn't make sense as a cash grab.
Runes didn't really get nerfed as such. The change to Tremor is kind of a sideways move. They lost some tactics, but it makes it far better at other things.
No longer can Legion players depend on DEf16 Raeks in weird spots to contest against Runes, for example.
But yes, the fact that only Trolls got hit is pretty worrisome. None of the changes were unexpected, but the fact that it was Trolls and basically no one else is kind of fucked up. Rumors go that the changes for the other factions are coming, but require different tacks, but that just sounds like bullshit.
>Seems like a pretty blatant grab to get people to buy other things in Trollbloods.
And to actually play other things in Trollbloods.
>Still want to play EE since you dumped a billion dollars into it? Well lucky for you I've got a Mountain King to sell you that totally hasn't been sitting in the warehouse since it's release day!
Even without the new T4 benefit, the list is still strong. It just gets to bring 2 less trolls. It still ahs a truckload of really good light beasts, that all get AD. And you get to combine that with a really good caster that just so happens to have a spell to manage their fury. It's just less ridiculous now.
>What's that, Warders are fulfilling all your infantry needs so you don't have to spend a gorillion dollars on sub-par medium based infantry? Well let's just nip that in the bud right now.
Fennblades. Champions. Toughallos. Fire Eaters. Burrowers. Highwaymen. Runeshapers. All good units. Don't know about the rest, because nobody around here plays them.
>Oh, people think Doomy3 is just Runes2.0, and everyone already owns Runes? Let's just adjust it down a little bit and see what happens.
Doomy3 is nothing like Runes. Unless you mean that he plays beast-heavy and bricks up.
>I'm all for proactive game balancing, but just clobbering a faction with the nerf bat is a shady as fuck way to do it, especially considering that if you remove EE from the equation the Troll tournament presence may as well be nil.
This is just the regular doom-saying. It'll pass and people will keep playing Trolls. They will be as successful or unsuccessful as they were before. Only now they might play something other than the usual 3 lists. That's a welcome change and well worth some careful swings with the nerf bat.
Hell, if PP was trying to make a money grab, they could have easily changed EE to allow the Glacier king. People would have played the shit out of that Garg in the tier, given what it adds.
Ah, I didn't know that! Thank you! I mainly want to go warjack heavy (not sure if that's helpful, considering it's a game centred all around them), I enjoy shooting while moving forward with durable units. Should I eventually get the rulebook? I really like reading the lore of a setting, ideally in book form. It's also another way to support them.
I really like Cygnar's miniatures (but I'm worried that I'm picking the Ultramarines of Warmachine with all the negatives that implies) , and the Mercenaries also have a cool vibe/aesthetic to them too
Ah, very nice. What would you recommend I buy to start a collection? A quick googling of "Cygnar starter set" brought up the Cygnar battlegroup set, which also comes with quickplay rules too
>I really like reading the lore of a setting, ideally in book form.
For that, the RPG books are ideal. Kings, Nations and Gods goes into great detail on the actual Iron Kingdoms (mainly Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate).
>I mainly want to go warjack heavy (not sure if that's helpful, considering it's a game centred all around them)
That is actually very helpful. Every faction can play jack-heavy, but some are just inherently better at it. Protectorate of Menoth (especially Feora2 and Durst) and Convergence of Cyriss (especially Forge Master Syntherion) are probabl best at it, but every faction has some sort of jack caster.
Not really. Cygnar are the poster boys of the game, but not nearly on the same level as Space Marines in 40k. And Mercenaries are also very viable, but require a somewhat high investment.
If you can get the All-in-one army box, that would be a rather good start. The Storm Guard are a unit of questionable usefulness, but the rest are basically faction staples. Also, Siege is probably the best beginner caster in the game. He's simple to play (shoot dudes, camp focus), but offers some depth (Foxhole and Mage Shight shenannigans) once you get more into the game.
Errata that alter model rules/value is what community always asked to PP.
The fact that Nerf are stronger than buff is the way PP works. If you nerf something strong you don't create something OP instead in buffing you should always be extra cautios.
That are the first change PP is making so I can understand them going slow, it a bit like the first expasion Wrath where a lot of things weren't really good cause PP still don't know where to go.
The only mistake that I think PP have made is that outside Theme Force they should have released a global errata for each faction at the same time with nerf/buff to model that needed that.
In this way a single faction doesn't feel over punished. While at the moment this is the case with trolls.
What I fear most is that a lot of changes have been made on Theme Force and that theme force are relative new, especially Bradigus. THat make me think that PP playtest is slowing going to hell and their weak spot in playtesting are spamm list.
Honestly, I just wish they follo up with a bit more in ~6 months and I'll be happy. Nerf the Necrosurgeon, the Helldivers, Harbinger, Vayl2 and maybe Skarre1 and Denny1. Nothing too crazy, just some minor things. That would leave us with some really good external balance.
>Necrosurgeon revives forfeit movement or action
>Helldivers undig completely within 5"
>something about Martyrdom or Awe or Crusader's Call
>Machinations loses the SPD bonus
>something about pDenny's feat
>something about Ritual Sacrifice
On the other hand, warjacks might be a better investment with the warder nerf. The main flaw of warjacks is you invest this huge amount of resources into something that gets murdered by WM infantry, and it doesn't have the volume of attacks to deal with infantry itself in most cases.
Rumor goes that Cryx nerfs are also coming, but that they have to be handled differently, since their problems are more fundamental to the nature of the game rules.
I don't know if I believe that, but that is what people are saying.
I'm not sure of Warders being nerfed suddenly means warjacks are viable again. Sure there is one less unit that can smash its steam shins in, but the work a battlegroup does is not nearly as much as a work an army does.
I had gotten over it for a while, but seeing how other games handle their "special" mechanic has made me wonder why PP even let this happen to their warjacks in the first place.
Battlegroups in Warmachine really only serve as a gateway drug to an army. Past that point it's really hard to make them work outside of a niche capacity.
The new errata gives me hope,
Once I start walking without my Warder crutch, that my Cygnar and Cryx will be able to use their (Non Colossal)Jacks without feeling gimped through some wide reaching errata.
>Cryx and Legion to be the top factions.
Actually legion is absolute trash and overcosted if they cannot abuse pathfinder and eyeless sight.
Also, don't forget that 12/19 or 11/20 are garbage defensive stats that define a heavy as glass cannon
>Actually legion is absolute trash and overcosted if they cannot abuse pathfinder and eyeless sight.
seriously git gud
reach + innate pathfinder + chain attack bloodbath + eyelss sight to charge through woods with pathfinder and higher spd w/o animus up...
fuck dude just quit and go back to 40k seriosuly
>Actually legion is absolute trash and overcosted if they cannot abuse pathfinder and eyeless sight.
Considering how much terrain is going to go on the table with sr2016 you can expect this to happen more
Well... I guess it's kinda true. If there are no forest or los blockers and no rough terrain, Legion tends to lose faster than any other faction out there. Especially against armies with threat extenders.
It's still a game, but they then brought equipment they did not need and the opponent in theory should be able to dickstomp.
It just falls apart on the fact that Pathfinder is so good, most factions that have it tend to take it. Most people only own "the good stuff" now anyways.
Oh and LoS shenanigans still apply to stealth.
That stat block also shows how dependent legion is on terrain placement
>Birthday, blow a wad of cash on Double Warders
>Blow a wad of cash on lights for EE
>Last Week, see the new pGrissel Sculpt, get hype for MMM finish painting warders
>and now this.
Oh man. Why should I buy/build/paint RoW, Doomie3? I feel like I got suckered. I didn't get what I paid for.
So I found out there is a strong Warmahordes community in my area and I thought I'd take the plunge. After looking around and seeing what the game has to offer; I decided I really like the look of the Minions army, more specifically the bog trogs. What would I need in terms of amounts units would I need to make a fluffy bog trogs army? I heard the usual point limit is 35 for a good balanced game (or so I've read) any tips you got for me /tg/? Any books I specifically need to pick up ?
They were published in the issue of No Quarter that just came out today. They're not in one of the big compiled rule books like Gargantuans, yet.
Trawler: PC2, FA2
SPD 5 MAT 6 RAT 5 DEF 12 ARM 15
Works for all Hordes factions
Pathfinder, Ambush, Amphibious, Camoflauge
POW 12 on both gun and melee, gun is RNG 8
Drag on the gun
Not going to lie, Minions are not the faction with the most options. But you can always start out with a balanced Rask build like this:
* Bull Snapper (3pts)
* Bull Snapper (3pts)
* Blackhide Wrastler (9pts)
Bog Trog Ambushers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Gatorman Bokor and Bog Trog Shamblers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Gatorman Witch Doctor (3pts)
Hello, folks. Something for /tg/ from cryxian pirates. Have fun.
Bloat Thrall overseer looks pretty good. RAT 8 AOE 5 arcing fire shots with continuous corrosion would really shit all over the Skorne stuff I like to play.
Bog Trog Trawler looks okay; can't see why I'd actually bring a 2pt drag solo though.
Oh, that's so precious. You think they intend you to run Doomy3. And you think the Splatter Boar ruling was a nerf! How cute.
Let me ask you, if you're running Doomy3 with one or more Glacier Kings, like he's designed to, how would you feel about them losing their activation every turn? Because that's what the Splatter Boar now does to them. Oh, they have to fail a Threshold check to frenzy. What's their threshold again? Is it 6? Good luck passing that.
But it's not like every faction can field the Splatter Boar. Oh, wait, Rorsh and Brine work for literally every major faction? Well, Doomy3 will still be a good Convergence and Retribution matchup.
First off, you're factoring in the support of other models in your equation. So if you want to complain about their power in that case, you're just complaining about buffs.
Second, they could routinely be P+S 11 now. But it's patently easy to just run, say, a unit of Iron Fang Pikemen+UA in to engage them and not fear retribution. Minifeat with either UA and P+S 11 needs 8s on 2d6 to kill. God forbid I run a 7 or 8-point warjack into them. Oh, I didn't damage you so you can't scratch my paint? And next turn I'm just going to push you back an inch to continue contesting your objective? Fine by me.
And of course I forget my image.
Pretty sure he will be able to survive with only 2 units of shifting stones... I know it requires people actually play the game but I believe in Circle players ability to adapt.
Plus, I mean, Kreuger2, Morv2, Kromac1 and 2 still exist. Pretty sure they're safe.
I imagine she is just floating back to the Broken Isles on a boat when a little rowboat comes up along side them, a mechanithrall crawls up on deck with a note pinned to his chest that just reads
Terminus is dead, grats, you're now a Lich Lord!
Then she just crumples it up, goes "cool" and then continues about her business.
im new to warhammer, but in my local store plays warmachine a lot more, so where is good to star from if im playing warhammer already? im playing chaos and i would like to play something similar to chaos with warmachine
It really just depends on caster and list taken. If you can weather the alpha with superior costed models or equivalently broken models, it's an uphill battle for a Legion player. They paid extra points for abilities they can't use.
It's just things aren't balanced that way since actual games require terrain, but of course if you want to be a Dingus go ahead. This is an anonymous message board, you can sheetpost all yoo want, Broseph
So, working with this Butcher3 list. Here's what I've got right now.
Koldun Lord jack marshaling a Rager
Iron Fang Kovnik
I have 1 point left. I had two thoughts. Either make the Kodiak into a Juggernaut and add in Madelyn, or spend it to bump the Kodiak up to becoming a Grolar once that's out.
The only benefit the rager gets from being under butcher is Energizer, but being under the koldun lord gives it more versatility to pull of something like boosting hit with a cannon shot without giving it focus, while the koldun lord gives his focus to the juggernaut. Or boosting hit on a charge.
It's actually a pretty popular way of bricking up with butcher3. Energizer pushing them upfield, the rager shield guarding butcher, koldun lord reducing the focus burden (and ruin being able to charge for free), with the idea being that each piece is really tough to take down and really killy.
One of the lists used by the WTC winners was a Butcher3 list with Ruin, Beast 09, and 2 Devastators.
Also, a member on the 6th place team used 3 juggernauts, and a member of the 8th placed team used 2 juggernauts, ruin, and a vanguard. My list is actually a derivative of that last one, I saw the concept and liked it.
8th: England Lions: Jamie Perkins Khador
Butcher 3 -4
War Dog +1
Iron Fang Pikemen (max) +8
Black Dragon UA +2
Koldun Lord +2
Eiryss 2 +3
Raluk Moorclaw +2
Gobber Tinker +1
why don't you run back to your little spesss marine game crying like the retard faggot you are?
or are you one of those players that thought ohh i can probably slap a bunch of random models on the table and win types. and when it doesn't work you cry on the forums?
Hmm, you may like Skorne. They're similar to Khornates in that they relish the blood of their enemies, and they're not above mutilating themselves or their warbeasts for an edge in battle.
What sort of Chaos lists do you usually run?
Look through the factions and decide which ones you like based on their aesthetic, and then we can tell you what they play like.
Once you decide, a battlebox for that faction is the de facto way to start.
So I just picked up legends of halaak. Thinking of using them in my makeda2 list, like this:
Swordsmen + UA
Min beast handlers
Stay Death works on them since they're troopers, and the increased threat range and boosted attack rolls from the feat make them real threats.
4chan has a word filter that automatically changes it to desu. Before, it was senpai. So you're probably not only new, but also stupid if you can't figure out something that basic.
The closest thing to chaos in warmachine is probably orgoth, but there is no army because they got their ass kicked in the earliest fluff for being edgy faggots. I mean seriously who believes that putting skulls and spikes on things makes it "kewl" no one. That shit stops being kewl when you pass the age of 12.
So, for Warmachine/Hordes check out the factions and pick the one you like the look of. But don't try comparing to warhams because for starters warham isn't the reference of all wargames.
>This is an anonymous message board, you can sheetpost all yoo want, Broseph
Chain attack jay shitposts here all the time, the denegra cry a river image is his. He is so proud he oughta namefag.
Many years ago I bought the Cryx starter box (pic related) and Goreshade the Bastard, hoping to start a cool army. Then, because of the lack of interest in my gaming group, I never continued. Now, I have recently assembled a small Hordes army. I have a place to find players, but I would like to have a second army so I can play with my non-wargamer friends as well (and perhaps get them in the hobby).
So, any suggestions on how to make a fun and versatile 35 pts. list starting from that box, and featuring either Goreshade or Deneghra? Possibly without spending too much?
Going to let you know that Denny one will probably be an unfun play experience for the other player due to her focus on debuffing the opponent and her feat, and Shade 1 has got a pretty weird spell list. If you're going to do a list with the battlebox content, I'd add bane thralls and their UA, and then a unit of MCthralls, a necrosurgeon, a skarlock thrall and a unit of soul trappers.
>and not every model can be competitively viable.
not with that attitude.
And the castigator is a testament to how little PP cares about intrafaction balance.
Its like they weren't even trying to give it a niche
I've come to the conclusion it would be probably easier and less expensive to buy an all-in-one box after all.
That said, the ones that look the most appealing to me are the Khador and Cygnar ones. Are they good in terms of playability?
Question from a beginner:
How much terrain and obstacles is appropriate for a normal game?
For example, would a very cluttered city scenery (like pic related) make for an interesting game, or would it just slow it down or excessively advantage those armies that can exploit or ignore terrain?
Possible but difficult.
Warmachine tends to be precise, so on that table a model would end up in a doorway with it's movement, but the model wouldn't physically fit, so what do? Put down a proxy base in which case why use miniatures at all?
Or say that the model cannot get under the archway and put it as close as possible - a bit like for a linear obstacle, no model can "land" on top of one.
just seen this in the menoth forum:
Warders lost WM, why don't Bastions lose WM?
Warders and Bastions have pretty much same stats. SPD4, reach. 8hp each, 3 or 5 dude medium base unit. Same cost: 5/8
Warders have Tough and battle driven
Bastions have blessed and sanguin bond
Both tank, both have access to armor buffs (bastions can get no knockdown tough)
Warders made Champions worthless
Bastions make Cinerators worthless
>TL;DR:Why didn't Bastions lose WM too, and fufill the prophecy that both trolls AND menoth were going to be salty?????
because banes don't make other units worthless; you still see plenty of bile thrall, mcthrall, raiders, bloodwitches.
You never see cinerators because bastions.
(although i agree, there are plenty of legion/cryx and eMorv that need a good thrashing with the nerf bat)
Gotta say i love some of the answers in the menoth forum so far:
nerf bastions? NOooooooooooo!!! erm, i mean....y-yeah, wateva, w-we don't care!...Honest!
I don't really care...but then, I want to see a Paladin of the Wall unit turn up (It's mentioned in Durst's tier list dammit) and it will be hard to have them function while Bastions are about like that.
I would've like paladin of the wall solos to be viable first, to be honest.
I have little hope for paladin units, since we had a similar surprise with "flamebringers" who were the worst of all the light cavalry.
There is that. Still, the Solos are not bad...just a bit of a chimera. They want to take advantage of that huge offence they can put out on the charge but they only get one hit so they can't go after infantry and it takes an action for them to go defensive.
Their special character makes them a lot better against most factions at least.
your a faggot. Bastions are POW12, def11, arm 16, they could also get defenders ward (or another defesive spell) to go up to def13/arm18, and be tough, no knockdown.
They can also spread out wounds between them, and or be martyred by the Harbinger; things warders cannot do.
Try finding a decent Menoth player before bragging about how easy they are to remove.
Yep, that's the sad thing. Paladins are kewl as fuck, but they are pretty pointless these days.
Just one attack doesn't cut it when the likes of nicia or acosta are on the table.
Also everyone and their dog seems to have magic weapons, so even defensively they don't cut it.
They don't even have reach, so if it comes to the worst case, enemy models will simply walk around the double stance paladin.
>Being ignored is the most painful thing :c
They really need something to make them actually able to threaten people. Like...dammit, I can't recall what it's called when you can use it on people outside your unit. 'When an ally is hurt you can advance and smack a bastard in the face'.
Give them some out of activation movement/attacks so they can still threaten in defensive mode.
Either that OR give them a 4" Engagement range when in defensive mode as they go full 4e Defender on your ass and lock down the area about them.
righteous vengence, i think, same rule as fire of salvation?
I think if they had reach it would be good, because they'd actually be able to deny passage a bit better.
defensive strike would be nice too.
Then they would be solid (ok, almost solid) defensive pieces.
>your a faggot
Sorry, but I don't possess faggots. I don't smoke.
11/16 is still more trivially removed than Warders. Even 13/18 with DefWard is still doable. It's not even fair to compare it to Warders at 12/21. Bastions would need an Arcane Shield ON TOP OF DefWard to reach ARM21. But sure, a better Menoth player will make them have higher stats.
Sure, their bond is great, but it doesn't actually protect them from damage like ARM21 does. It just allows them to stay at full efficiency for longer.
Doesn't have DefWard. And prefers other units anyway. Which you should know.
Okay, so this is why you're wrong, now you can keep calling em a faggot, like the brainless cretin you are.
Yes but people were comparing warders without support to Bastions with support, which isn't really a fair comparison.
I'd like to see them get some Superheavy Cav as the unit. A trio of bigass, scary knights in shining armour with good defensive stats and lances that could scare a heavy jack. Not cheap by any stretch but there when you need a holy man to stick a lance into the neck of a dragon(spawn).
Maybe give them something like:
>Monster Slayer: This unit gains +2 Def and +2 Arm when engaged with a model with an equal or larger base size.
So they piss jacks and beasts the fuck off as Paladins have a rather respectable Def for their sheer armour.
lordy, you're srs a fagget. git gut scrub.
If you can't into simple understanding then time to go back2reddit.
You're the kind of faggt that in an argument about mechas being too big and heavy to function will say that dinosaurs aren't comparable, because Brontosaurus was never a real thing.
Yes, that's how much of a dick you sound like.
>I'd like to see them get some Superheavy Cav as the unit. A trio of bigass, scary knights in shining armour with good defensive stats and lances that could scare a heavy jack. Not cheap by any stretch but there when you need a holy man to stick a lance into the neck of a dragon(spawn).
On a similar note, I'd like a mounted Paladin solo, much like the khador MoW mounted solo.
That'd be fucking awesome.
>Denny one will probably be an unfun play experience for the other player
tell him to suck it up buttercup because that's how the game works.
(morghoul battlebox is also a ball buster. his battlegroup will probably get the alpha every game if he's not played by a total retard.)
It'd be alright for the most part, but you'd get lots of tears and bitching from tournament-type players. True, such a map does give advantages to Flying and Incorporeal models. The bigger issue is that a lot of players wouldn't be able to adapt to anything that isn't the 'standard' terrain set up, and throw a fit because of it. With an abundance of hard terrain and fixed lanes, there are a bunch of pieces that would otherwise be considered sub-par that suddenly have a lot more value.
This table is really awesome, but kind of terrible for your standard 50 point game.
All of the impassable terrain and narrow streets will make it hard to play on and move your guy's around assuming they balance on the rubble that's everywhere.
Checkout PP's awesome Cornish Bridge table or the IG finals table from last year if you want a good idea for a city table that works
I like pMorghoul but the only cyclops I own are savages. They're really solid beatsticks, but is a brute just straight up better? The brute allows me to use Morghoul far more actively since I don't need to worry about him getting knocked down anymore. I lose the threat of the savage, and gain the threat of Morghoul.
Also are bloodrunners worth it? My only infantry at the moment are nihilators, incendiarii, and handlers. They seem like a nice tricky unit that minces enemy infantry through anatomical precision and high MAT.
Those are awesome, thank you.
I'm a sucker for scenery and city settings in general, that's why I asked in the first place. And you provided me some great ideas.
Yeah, I figured so ... Also I play Legion, and I suspect that anyone having to face plenty of fliers and eyeless sight Ravagores wouldn't be happy with such a table.
How do I get into this game? Here's my story
>always loved table top games
>see this game, instant love
>fluid mechanics competitive and reasonably priced
>buy rulebooks for both WM and hordes
>buy ~75 pts of khador, paint about 45 worth (shit tier I'd add. First time modeling.)
>too chicken shit to face you nerds in the game store
>most game stores are old friends and places I wouldn't fit being a noob and oldish (26)
>afraid of being laughed at
>afraid of people thinking I'm cheating when i make mistakes
>afraid no one will want to teach me the game and what I'm doing wrong
>afraid people will think I'm a tryhard faggot because the list I made was one I pulled from a competitive build site
>convince roomie to buy some
>gets the starter for menoth
>his interests wane, I end up painting his models
>they go into a box
>here we are
Funny thing is, is that I'm not normally like this. I'm not particularly hideous nor do I smell like shit, and have a Stacy gf who's knowledge is that I play vidja and no further. I don't know why I become so catatonic over it. I wish I had rl friends that were invested. Relatedly is there anyone in Northeast Ohio that wants to be friends I'd be down to clown.
Most people that play wmh tend to not be douchebags, just go play some games.
If you feel embarrassed claim that you just jumped over from moneyhammer and have no idea what you are doing and laugh it off
Ball. Grow some. Pop down to the local shop/club and get yourself introduced to the game.
No one cares if you don't know the rules, no one cares if you lose.
But soon, you will notice almost every single WMH player is a wierdo in one way or another. Some are much worse than you.
So get some courage and move yo ass.
As I said, flight and incorporeal do have an advantage on a city-fight style table, but they're still not OP. They're like having Pathfinder in a forested map: they improve maneuverability. What most people have an issue with is the fact that they actually have to think about their lists and how to play. 'Traditional' tables have a scattering of terrain (or the classic 'a hill and a 3in forest'. In the end, you'll be facing your opponent head on with few obstacles, and all of your forces can redeploy somewhat easily if a flank starts faltering. Most lists these days are created with this in mind as well.
In a city map, it's incredibly easy for your forces to become separated, outflanked, or cut off from support. Pathfinder is basically useless unless you either create trees, or treat rubble as rough terrain. But at the same time, pieces with means of controlling the field become all that more valuable. Mohsar dropping a Pillar of Salt in the middle of a street, blocking the enemy's advance (or cutting some off). Cygnaran chain-gun units (Gun Crew, Sentinel, Cyclone) can make charging a street with infantry an incredibly dangerous prospect. Heavier pieces, provided they fit, can dominate a lane by either killing weaker targets in it's way or forcing a retreat. Depending on the table, there may also be path ways that are large enough for small bases to pass through, but not large enough for medium or larger bases to follow. This can provide escape, or opportunities, to pieces that might otherwise be trapped between an unstoppable force and an immovable object.
Terrain dense tables are not bad, but they go against the grain of what 90% of Warmahordes players are so used to. They do not take change very well at all, so of course people get upset by the idea of having a lot of terrain.
Just show up to a game store, or call them and ask if they have a day for Warmahordes. Then say you've never played and ask if anyone wants to run a couple battlebox games.
Most people tend to be cool and like to teach people the game.
This really isn't helpful
See if your local shop has a community leader or a Press Ganger. Someone that's there to specifically help new guys. They're there to help people ease into the game and learn the rules. When you're new most people won't care and will make sure you to help you.
Most Warmahordes guys are pretty cool, so try and relax if you can. Don't be afraid to ask for help either.
They have a Web forum I'm considering using. I guess it's so embarrassing for me because I feel like such a normie. They obviously will remember me because it's a small market and a small town. I've been buying dnd stuff and minis from them since 2013 but never once played there.
It's not helpful because there's no point trying to help someone who isn't trying to help themselves first and foremost. Like, sitting there telling us about how pathetic you are isn't doing anything. What do you want me to do? Hold your hand?
This is a good point. But I am trying to hell myself.
Thanks I will do that I don't think they have press gangers though. I'll ask about it or check the privateer press site.
Yeah man unfortunately the best advice I can give you is to just not stress about it.
If the game store allows people to post bulletins you could post a bulletin saying you're looking for Warmahordes players to maybe paricipate in some small games and maybe work into a slow grow league and see if theres any local interest.
beta scrub faggot detected.
grow some balls and explain that you're new to the game. start playing and fucking learn.
Well you could try not being a dick, but hey, that's just me. You do you anon
What's the deal with conversions and count-as in this game?
My gaming group is encouraging me to make the switch from 40k since I'm enjoying the RPG.
I was looking at doing a Llael themed force, probably the Vive la resistance one for all the gun mages.
My plan was to convert some gunmages so they look different to the standard Cygnaran ones, as well as doing my own versions of some of the named characters like Taryn and Gorman
Counts-as and conversions of any kind are fine if you clear it with your opponent.
Local events you meed to clear with the organizer or judge(s) to clear up what you're going to bring stands as.
Official events have much stricter rules, but you most probably will not sperg out and go for those just yet.
Don't be a dick, don't play with other dicks, clarify your counts-as with your opponent, and you'll be fine.
Cancerrific kindergarten humor. Still, it's a better name then Warmahordes.
>My plan was to convert some gunmages so they look different to the standard Cygnaran ones, as well as doing my own versions of some of the named characters like Taryn and Gorman
Can the models be easily identified as what they are supposed to represent? Then they are legal for any event.
Can the models be easily identified as what they are after a short (!) explanation? Then they are legal for mostly any casual game and inofficial event.
Oh and no foreign IP symbols like the GW aqilla or the starbucks logo.
As a general guideline, make sure weapons are the same (guns+swords for gunmages) and that they actually look like gunmages.
For my marks I converted them to have dueling swords, and painted them black like in the amethyst rose fluff, they're supposed to be still in mourning for their dead king. The red is my army color. I didn't do more conversion since I like their style already.
Everything will be WYSIWYG and I always explain what my stuff count-as so that should be cool.
Llael's stuff is hot pink right? :D
>Oh and no foreign IP symbols like the GW aqilla or the starbucks logo.
I was planning to keep it fluff friendly and stick to the Llael flag (crown above three stars IIRC)
Yeah I love the Amthyst Rose fluff, it's precisely why I want to make them stand out from the bog standard Tempest ones. I've been playing an AR resistance gunmage in the NPC hence my plan for the army
New Reckoner, new style. Black is a mich better primer than white.
>tfw you just bought a metal thundercunt
[Spoiler]I prefer the metal one[/spoiler]
If you're going to go full retard with double Viktors you should at least build a decent list.
Lol, would like to see his face if/when they re-errata that shit, and/or Mk.III rolls out fixing shit.
Rules can easily be rewritten, but your not going to get that cash or time back. Fucking retard.
Lots of people in the last two-three years got into Trolls because they're legitimate WAAC faggots. Not trying to bait here, it's just a trend that I've noticed among these hypercompetitive cunts. They're salty as fuck because their most bullshit list got nerfed and now they're overreacting.
Yeah I was also not impressed with their pose for Taryn. I resculpted most of her, the only pieces of the original left are the torso and head. I used new gunmage guns as well, the rest is my sculpt.
I'm in the same boat as you buddy. I always wanted to play TT wargaming but never played a game of it in my life. Started being interested when reading lore on 40k then shortly after that Dawn of War for pc came out, that pretty much made me want to get into the real thing. Which the reality was different. Rules were massively complex n the odd time i dropped into the gaming store all the dice rolling looked like two fuckers randomly throwing it while speaking nonsense. Eventually I made a friend when I went to college who was into /tg/ stuff. Like where I am now is an hours bus ride to the nearest gaming store, which my /tg/ friend told me is run by a napoleon prick who when pissed off will purposefully mess up ur orders, the guy is the manager and my friend along with his brothers had a run in with him more than a few times. So the danger is there of me leaping over the counter then throwing him out a window.
Man kids aside, I'd like to play. Having gone over the factions of WM I'm split between Menoth and Khador. But I also need to learn to paint minis.
Whats most important to you? Playstyle, models, background fluff? I think the main rulebooks should give you a decent synopsis of each faction (there is one rulebook for Warmachine armies, and one for Hordes armies since they work by different mechanics). To check out the mini's just browse PP's main site. If their's a certain play style you like or absolutely abhor just state it and you'll get some recommendations.
Any factions interest you either in play style or aesthetic?
As far as models go. All-in-one boxes are great starting points. You end up with a decent 35pt list out of the gate.
If you can't find an AiO box for your chosen faction, a Battlebox is a solid place to start.
I pretty much got it down to four factions that interest me, either game play or fluff wise mercenaries,retribution of scyrah, Protectorate of menoth, and the convergence of cyriss. any expert advice on the nuances of each faction you can give?
I did look into the boxes and as soon as I figure out the specifics I'll probably pick one up
Pick a contract/warcaster first, it's pretty much impossible to go over the entire merc faction
Elf 'Queda, hunt down and destroy human mages, they have solid jacks with shield generators and lots of good single wound infantry, typically play for assassination or scenario victory.
Religious crusaders bent on converting the world. They have some of the best jack support, and are about denying your opponent their abilities and resources while augmenting yours. Good at winning scenario and attrition.
Almost entirely robotic faction. Have a unique mechanic of letting their jacks transfer a single focus, allowing you to get the most out of it. You will most likely run a lot of jacks or a lot of infantry. Good at winning attrition.
I'd recommend against Retribution for a new player. They're not forgiving at all
Mercs generally aren't new player friend either, as your stuck with either theme forces or contracts as to what you can play.
Cyriss is solid, but you're not going to get new toys often.
Menoth is solid as well. You can run either jack-heavy or infantry-heavy lists. Downfall is lack of pathfinder, but since most Warmachine games are played with minimal terrain it doesn't matter a whole lot.
Neato, my friend warned me against playing cyriss because of the weird regen mechanic, but I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out.
Menoth was one of the factions that interested me game play wise because I read that they change the meta of the game from fast to grinding, and that no other faction can really do that
But the most important thing is that I need a way to beat the WAAC guy in our group who plays Cryx
I would not get into this game. Community is toxic and dying. But if you're really going to, play either Cryx or Legion. Its what everyone else will be playing and it'll be a WAAC uphill battle otherwise.
Absolutely do not play Mercs, Minions, Menoth, or Cyriss. Or just don't play any of the Warmachine factions at all. But especially Cyriss. They've gone 3 years without an update and were already out of meta on release.
Yeah similar things happened with Bradigus.
The people that do stupid theme lists like that were just asking to have their shit kicked in by a nerf bat.
It's PPs way of saying "We will make changes if we need to, we messed up and aren't afraid to fix things. You flat out abuse anything, and you are no longer safe."
I think the community is getting better. The recent erratta changes are discouraging cheese lists, since if its too good or warping then it is more likely to get destroyed by the next year.
I think things are on the upswing.
Oh and Cryx and Legion have the most options for comp play, but I wouldn't buy all in on Cryx for at least a year from now. They are probably next on the eratta block. Legion less so.
Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Man I'm tired of you fucks saying this. The real issues with Cryx eclipse the EE and Warders nerfs, they are going to take more time or end up really shitty for more than just Cryx.
In the meantime, easiest nerf for egregious shit in Cryx would be an excarnate nerf and maybe Denegrah1 feat not affecting focus. That's the easy shit. The hardest shit is balancing undead when other models have it and the faction revolves around it.
CoC are also very, very good at making a game grind on, though not against Cryx.
And yea, you want to fuck Cryx? Take Harby, take the book, and feat top of turn 1. And then laugh your ass off.
Cryx's problems are mostly to do with Caster issues, more than anything else.
Like, pSkarre's feat being offensive, defensive, and it's downside basically not being one at all is pretty bad already, but add in free focus for her to camp so she can feat aggressively and Dark Guidance providing a hit buff as well, and she just does way, way too much.
I don't agree, Cryx casters aren't so bad.
It's cryx in general: undead makes them immune to a lot of things, and there is no downside.
Most cryx stuff costs less than other equivalents, notably withershadow combine, darragh wrath, mcthralls.
Plenty of cryx stuff does more for less points, for example the necrosurgeon heals for d6 whereas most healers only heal 1d3. necrosurgeaon can aslo repop 3 mcthralls per turn.
Cryx has easy access to recursion, incorporeal, souls and corpses for further efficiency.
Whats the downside? The balancing factor to make them not OP? -1MAT, RAT and lower Cmd.
So yeah balancing cryx without completely neutering them isn't a simple fix.
More than changing a word in gaspy2's feat.
>necrosurgeaon can aslo repop 3 mcthralls per turn
Within 3". And they don't have to forfeit anything. And you can combine ith with stuff like Mockery. They're just too good for 2 points.
Now that the dust has settled, what do you guys think of Troll Jesus?
So yeah Deneghra1 is a bitch, and really strong, but I don't think she is a problem.
If cryx actually had a counterbalance mechanic of having low MAT and RAT, then denny should be a fixer, bringing cryx stuff up to "normal" levels.
There are a couple of spells, maybe that could do with some mods (like skarre's free focus spell with the spell slave and scrap thralls)
and things like asphyxious, who has good defensive stats, is good at spell slinging, good at combat and has a good feat too. But hey why not, let the boss be awesome edgy kewl, but surely his pitiful army should balance it out.
>nerfing Cryx units instead of casters
I'd actually be okay with that. The only problem I see are mercs. Denny1 would be completely unimpressed by any nerf to Cryx infantry as she doesn't take them anyway.
I don't think so.
Martyrdom is on disabled, whilst carnivore's RFP effect is boxed of destroyed.
So errants still get to self sac/tough then can be martyred.
But that isn't really the problem, it's that emorv will have so many models in the right place at the right time with all the re-rolls they need. Once harbinger has martyred down to about 4 HP she won't martyr any more that turn, then if she spends her stack to heal, she's open for assassination.
I dunno man.
You take the sails out of pSkarre's feat and ability to generate free focus and her army is no longer the table clearer is usually is. She has to be more conservative with her feat and can't just stand up front, threatening everything.
Well, I'm just repeating what has been said on the forums.
For skarre's spell they said to just change it to SELF, so only skarre herself can cast it.
There was something about actually requiring a living sacrifice, because sacrificing walking scrap isn't much of a blood sacrifice....Which makes sense.
Saw him in action the other night, holy fuck.
can't remember if there was anything else, I think it was 50pts
With all those animi and doomy3's feat, it was over on turn2. Against Butcher3 with Ruin and 2 clamjacks.
I'd like that. It'd free up soem design space in Cygnar. Even though Haley3 is already turd polishing like a champ.
Well that's weird. I'd have thought the matchup was in Harby's favor. I guess eFeora would fare better though. Hard to assassinate and can really remote infantry with a Jewdictator.
warmahordes noob here considering buying few minis and starting an army. I have only seen one battlereport and a game in local pub/store/gaming place and I really liked what i have seen. At first I was considering starting Khador, beacuse of its Red Army feel, but now while i'm reading what warcasters and warlock and some other units do, I think I would like Trollbloods or Gatormen more.
I used to play Orcs in fantasy warhammer and I play them in kings of war now and I like their playstyle of tough units refusing to die and brawling enemy army into submision. From what I have read I guess that Trollblods and Gatormen can do something like that too.
So my question is, what is the difference between those two factions playwise? And are both viable option for a beginner? Also are there viable Trollbloods lists using Gatormen units, so I could use both?
Game is designed for a handful of well placed terrain pieces not a whole slew of it across the board, so for a balance reason people would bitch about it. But as a fun thing to dick aroud with at the LGS if they have a bunch of40k terrain could be fun. Though expect lots of proxy bases or falling over models on rubble and what not.
painted first group of press gangers. now need a second one painted... i'm thinking with dark blueish as their gang colour.
>tough units refusing to die
Trolls. Definitely trolls. They're very viable, even though their broken shit just got cut back in the last errata. Most of their shit just. won't. die. They can play Infantry-heavy or Warbeast-heavy just fine.
I'm only a khador player but I want to start a hordes army. I like skornes lore and strengths but I hate their weaknesses and also their warbeasts look like aborted wombats.
What is the strongest hordes faction in your honest opinion
What is the most beginner friendly hordes ay in your honest opinion
Yeah they look super strong. Those models also aren't the best looking in my opinion. Which is your favorite hordes faction based solely on model aesthetics? Maybe it's just their color scheme. I could try something else with them.
I want to build epic Madrak.
Would taking one unit of warders with him still be alright as an anvil unit? I was thinking of:
2x Northkin fire eater units
Pyg burrowers (max)
Trollkin champ hero
Fell caller hero
I can hot swap the extra damage die between burrowers and warders, or try and force my enemies to hit the Warder unit, put the Pyre Troll animus on them and then just vomit fire eater sprays all over them to clear out the opponents front line.
Should I drop Janissa, a unit of fire eaters and the champ hero and instead bring a stone scribe chronicler and another unit of Warders?
That way I'd have a large anvil that can still counterattack pretty nicely on feat turn by hot swapping blood fury.