>can fire a bow and move in the same turn
>detect secret doors
>see in the dark
>can use magic swords
>speak multiple languages
>invisible while in natural settings
>immunity to ghoul paralysis
Why do humans even bother adventuring alongside superior elven heroes whom they'll just end up slowing down?
Have you tried not playing DnD?
Seriously, it used to be cute, but not it's just exhausting when people actually treat DnD like it's not complete and utter shit that has zero semblance of sense or balance.
You also forgot the 300 to 3,000 year life span, depending on the edition and setting.
Yes, because a game where one playing playing a wizard pretty much makes everyone else completely useless is fun.
Boy am I glad I never have to play with you.
Nice attempt to change the subject, but bad game design is bad game design, especially in a game that's supposed to be about everyone contributing to the story. DnD has bad game design in spades, caster edition or not.
Every edition after 2e is Caster Edition anyway.
>trying to change the subject (again)
Bad game design becoming entrenched in the industry is bad for everyone. It's not a matter of "stop liking what I don't like", it's a matter of an out-of-touch franchise like DnD being the industry-defining standard when there are so many better games out there. That "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE" excuse is used by the same idiots who lament that movies, videogame, TV, and every other form of media has become shit now.
Calm down there Spergs McKenzie. It's what it all boils down to, and like all the others, people who aren't assblasted autistic faggots generally enjoy media you consider sub-par.
It's already been said, but I'm gonna emphasise this.
It simulates the poweless people feel in real life and how their lives drift without the being able to do anything meaningless...if you play a martial that's it. If you play a caster it simulates the entitlement of rich and famous people and their grasp over the common folks.
You seem to forget something called melee range. You can complain about the fancy wizard in the back getting all the fancy kills. But that's the fucking point. Martial fighters = meat shields and specialized melee battlers. Magic users = raw damage and specialized killers. A sword is great by itself, but it becomes a real threat when it has a powerful shield.
As long as we are talking 3.5, the wizard can summon, or turn his familiar into a dragon, have near impenetrable defenses, or possibly just win with a single spell, so he doesn't need a meatshield.
Or he's possibly a Druid or Cleric, meaning he is a better meatshield than the meatshield to begin with.
Wizard isn't the ONLY problem. Druid and Cleric simply fill the "fighter" role better than the fighter can ever hope.
And here we reach the real problem 3e and associates 3.5 and Pathfinder = D&D to the faggots talking about caster supremacy. All the while ignoring that that PF is regarded as shit that fixed nothing from 3.5, even by paizofags and that D&D is now two editions from their glorious example. Because it hurts that people enjoy it, so they have to talk about shit they don't know about.
On the off chance you are serious: The sword also can't circumvent flying or invisible enemies, blur, mirror images, and do anything but deal damage to a few targets at most. You also very rarely get into a situation where you have to fight a whole day AND the wizard can't circumvent it with a spell/just send a summon/simulacra/animal companion to do it instead of the fighter. It's like saying "fists don't run out of ammo, they are totally viable weapons for SWAT!".
On the unlikely occasion the can detect him, the barb gets initiative and the wizard doesn't have nerveskitter, and the barb can reach him, the barb still needs to be a bit optimized to oneshot the wizard going through all of its defenses, and it's still possible its just an astral projection. The barb has to jump through all these hoops the wizard can just ignore. Or make new ones, if he feels like.
>And here we reach the real problem 3e and associates 3.5 and Pathfinder = D&D to the faggots talking about caster supremacy
There's no point in really talking about it in other editions. I mean, I guess 5e necromancers, simulacra and wish are still bullshit, but at least the rest is okay.
I always get the opposite really, I get the feeling that people saying 3.5 has absolutely no problem have either never actually played it or their games have tons of homerules they "forgot" to mention.
3.5 is playable, sure, but sometimes I prefer to not build an entire new system just to fix it a little and just DM a better game.
>and what if a barbarian manages to get initiative over a wizard?
On the odd case that happens, really, odd as fuck, could be said of absolutely any class, if you go first at high levels you probably win, problem is that at high levels casters have 1001 ways of going first while martials only have Dex and maybe two magic items.
I've heard that before.
>I don't allow 2books.
>"omg core only!!!"
>we don't use a lot of magic items.
>" omg!! Muh wbl!!!"
>we stay close to wbl, we just spend coin on building castles instead of magic item
>"omg!! Muh bears and mages and wish spells!!"
>do you all not start at lv 1?
>" omg!! Sleep spell kills everything!! "
Over and over.
Balance issues are a dm's problem.
>True that, though it becomes a problem when they say it and are talking about a system nearly 10 years out of cycle and mean all editions.
Eh, they still have a point in that casters have a huge advantage in influencing the narrative that non-casters just don't.
Just having access to shit like Fly and Teleport entirely rewrites the laws by which the story flows. Even small shit like create water/food reduces common problems that martials possibly have to deal with (say, stranded on a ship or in a desert) to non-issues.
>not allowing splats which reduces the difference between martials and casters or fixes some shitty problems like rogues dealing jack shit to 200+ monsters or monks being fucking useless MAD as fuck
There's a big section covering CR's.
It mentions that some levels will be tougher or easier depending on things like party build, terrain, conditions etc.
Its not a homebrew you epic fucking faggot.
Let's face it, if they could actually form a decent argument, they would have by now. Hell the only decent on is that 3.5s utility spells actually made mundane shit have to play catch up.
And when you look at the bigger picture, a fundamental not understanding of how spells worked.
Now here's the problem with both of those. Teleport and fly are higher level (wonder how many see that both are at least level 5, and think you get x-level spells at the same level indicated by X). By the time you get fly, it's not abnormal for others to have items that do the same, and think teleport=teleport without error.
As for the other, unless you're playing with absolute dicks, its not a huge problem.
That's the ultimate crap on the usual shit is that it's taking screenshots of a game, then acting like that's how it plays.
>I don't allow 2books.
>"omg core only!!!"
Depends on the books. If you disallow ToB and Psionics you're a fag though.
>we don't use a lot of magic items.
>" omg!! Muh wbl!!!"
Which is fine if you actually accommodate it in the monster design, and don't let people play casters in general.
>we stay close to wbl, we just spend coin on building castles instead of magic item
>"omg!! Muh bears and mages and wish spells!!"
Nigger, you don't need wish spells to outclass a fucking fighter. That isn't to say every druid is just going to objectively outclass the fighter in every fucking game ever, but given even a decent grasp of mechanics ALLOWS you to be better than a fighter with little effort or investment.
>do you all not start at lv 1?
>" omg!! Sleep spell kills everything!! "
Color spray is a cone effect that is one stop short of being an insta-kill spell at low levels.
The point is that you're a fucking idiot, and Rule 0 does not invalidate the inherent lack of balance in the system no matter how many strawmen you tear down.
For some odd reason, they always manage for enemies to group up just perfectly for their spells to work.
No one ever targets them.
They always have access to and have memorized, the exact spell they need.
They always have tons of time to create wagon loads if scrolls.
They've never had a good DM. Clearly.
Here is my go to example of "caster supremacy" as a problem.
We have Arnold the Level 5 Rogue and Billy the Level 5 wizard.
Arnold attempts to sneak into a compound filled with traps. He is good at stealth, five ranks, class skill, and a +6 dex mod. This gives him a +14.
Billy the wizard casts invisibility, he now has a +20 while not having the opportunity cost the rogue did.
Now let us say the traps are not magic, based on pressure and trip wires. Arnold has a good reflex save, a cloak, and more. A +10. That's pretty good.
Billy casts fly, having bypasses any trap that is not set off by sight, which they do not have due to invisibility.
Time and time again spells like this invalidate other's roles. Spells for lock picking, disguise, armor, magic weapons. Casters are the only ones able to create magic items easily. Casters are able to provide a save sleeping place in even harsh environments.
It isn't about "Can your fighter beat my druid", PvP never was the problem. It's about versatility that casters have that martials simply don't. EVEN THEN martials have serve issues with competing with casters in combat due to this versatility. In Dungeons and Dragons combat maneuvers are severely weak compared to spells and have a very limited number of things they can accomplish. Then there is battle field control, summoning, transmutation, buffing, debuffing.
Martials have one way to deal with combat really, damage. Casters have any number accomplishing the goal.
>Now here's the problem with both of those. Teleport and fly are higher level (wonder how many see that both are at least level 5, and think you get x-level spells at the same level indicated by X). By the time you get fly, it's not abnormal for others to have items that do the same, and think teleport=teleport without error.
>As for the other, unless you're playing with absolute dicks, its not a huge problem.
>That's the ultimate crap on the usual shit is that it's taking screenshots of a game, then acting like that's how it plays.
Not that you need 5th level spells to ignore things like climb checks and pressure plates (levitate). Overland flight just lets you do that the whole day.
For the record, IIRC a permanent flight item+an at will teleport item at that level costs like 3/4th your WBL or more.
Yes, creatures do not "group up". This only matters for small spells like the iconic color spray. When there are spells with 40 foot diameter circles this does not matter nearly as much.
You people. It's like you're a bunch of tards, it's like talking to a brick wall. I think martials should be buffed, how is this a bad thing if you like martials.
As a player who's playing a scout right now, fucking this, the druid and the warlock are like billion times better than me, literally never ever been in the spotlight, could have been rolled an expert and essentially do the same as I'm doing now.
The argument was already there, I just threw my hat into the ring. Rule 0 is fine for games, but it doesn't automatically invalidate inherent flaws in design.
You're a fucking idiot. A wizard is always assumed to be at full resources because short of hardcore GM fiat, there's nothing that can be fucking done about it. Rule 0 is far more of a fallacy, because at least schrodingers spellbook is grounded in shit that the wizard is perfectly capable of doing, rather than pretending that being able to ignore a rule makes the rule perfectly okay.
That long living kind is a half-elf
How do you start with a 20? getting an 18 is fucking hard as fuck, if you use point buy is impossible (without killing you in the process)
Then you're a moron. It doesn't have to make him silent. He gets a +20 to stealth, unless the opponents have blindsight it doesn't make a difference.
It's like you people don't understand opportunity cost.
Let's see where you fucked up.
Infinite spell slots, Fly at 5th level.
How about you try something better.
Here's the problem, all of those spell take up slots, they're not infinite run and gun, unless you spent massive amounts of time or money for scrolls. It falls strictly into one of the traps caster edition Sayers and optimizers fall into.
A wizard is always at full resources, even though to be full they somehow have the time to adventure and make or buy these resources.
See not even RAW agrees there.
>A wizard is always at full resources, even though to be full they somehow have the time to adventure and make or buy these resources.
What the fuck does the wizard need besides food? Everything on top of their spell list is just fucking gravy, and spells recover every long rest.
Race as class makes more sense than race+class
Firstly, it makes races either nothing more than useless fluff or annoying minmaxing ( I'm guilty of the minmaxing part, if I write a character there is literally NO reason to not alter the backstory so I can get those racial bonuses )
Second, if races are distinct enough to not just be different subspecies of human ( if they are just call everything human ) then there is no reason why they should be as capable as eachother at everything with slight advantages or disadvantages.
Elephants, dolphins, corvids, and humans are all intelligent but none of them can do everything the other can do or even emulate it in the same way.
>Here's the problem, all of those spell take up slots, they're not infinite run and gun, unless you spent massive amounts of time or money for scrolls. It falls strictly into one of the traps caster edition Sayers and optimizers fall into.
How many climb checks do you need a day? How many do you need to do in the time span outside the duration of the spell?
Like, okay, the Rogue can climb 24/7, but unless you are doing a 24/7 climbathon for some reason, how useful is that?
I'm sorry you've had shit tier arguments, because the GM does not invalidate game rules. It doesn't matter if you fucking YODEL AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS WHILE INVISIBLE, YOU STILL GAIN A +20 TO STEALTH AND A +40 WHILE STANDING STILL
Even if you heard him, you then have to beat DC 20 listen check to pinpoint his location, even if you do he's still invisible and can move, and you have to repeat the process again.
Excuse me? He isn't fucking silent, he has a +20 to stealth. Your rogue isn't silent either. Making noise doesn't negate the +20 to stealth unless you rewrite the spell. He has a +20 WHILE making noise from moving. When standing still and not making noise it jumps to a +40.
>Like, okay, the Rogue can climb 24/7, but unless you are doing a 24/7 climbathon for some reason, how useful is that?
Going by the "muh DM muhfugga" logic, then the rogue can't either. Because the DM says that normal people can't climb for 24 hours. He doesn't get to just apply rule 0 when it benefits him.
>Guard, if he rolls well, looks at my direction
>Can't pintpoint shit, can't see shit
>"Must be the wind"
Unless you have guards that fire at absolutely anything because "It could be a wizard"
I played a game like that, it was funny, it devolved in every npc killing other npc, animals, objects, etc over the sheer paranoia because "It could be a polymorphed caster!"
Different strokes m8.
>implying building a castle isn't an adventure.
Best game we ever had involved trying to get a shitton of material to build with, a long ways off..and finding builders.
Followed by having to defend new castle from a bunch of gnolls and giants.
Spell slots (ie how many you can cast per long rest) are not infinite, so you'd have to artificially boost that shit with scrolls and their one time use, wands and their charges, other items that mimic the spell or fire it off (usually cost more than the above). And that's only for your current spell level, anything above that requires those things.
Those wonderful resources. Hell the one way to continually get that long rest without disturbance is a fucking resource (magic rope). Get it through your head, slots are not infinite and unless you have numerous long breaks between adventures or the DM has Ye Olde Magick Shoppe in every hamlet its not going to be infinite. There's a reason 5-minute wizard workday was coined.
Slots aren't infinite, but beyond level 3 you should have enough for any normal day of school adventuring unless your combats last more 20 rounds a day. By that point everyone's resources would be gone.
People have to remember martial characters have limited resources too.
I think he means that, as soon as the wizard runs out of spells, the party decides to rest 8 hours, which happens at low levels more often than not. I've seen pure martials not wanting to make another step without me (usually bard) having almost all my spells avaliable.
We were talking utilities.. Not combat.
So we find a base we must break into tonight.
Doh! The wizard is spelled up for combat. So we wait on him to memorize the right spells tomorrow.
Wizard busts in...
Now we wait another day for the wizard to re- memorize his combat set up.
Give me the rogue ftw.
IM GONNA CALL IT EVERY TIME I SEE THIS MEME
>Mechanical Overgod of doing everything right but completely off of the fluff of the setting
>Mechanically fucked beyond any means of restoration but well anchored into the setting
>Both completely fucked mechanically and detached from the fluff of the setting
OH SHIT NIGGER WHAT ARE YOU DOING
>Mechanically sound and well fleshed out background fitting the setting
Here's the thing. We're going straight off the wiz progression.
Goody he has 3 1st level spells left, and that's it. Hope its only been 2 minutes since he cast invisibility, because oh so good wizard now has no second invisibility, and had 6 minutes total to infiltrate the castle.
Once again where is this 5th level mage getting all these slots needed to be le uber godly. If mean he supposedly has no resources, and must be using an invisibility that's metamagic'd, somehow.
How you can actually tell that spell lists were just skimmed over. They treat invis and spells like it, as though they didn't have set limits.
They struggle for damage at all levels, also magic items cost like 3x times more for them (for a +1 to attack and damage you need to pay 6000 instead of 2000 for example) also they're mad as fuck, also 99% of their class features are worse than 1st level spells.
If you can, anon, ask for unarmed swordsage option.
>Why do humans even bother adventuring alongside superior elven heroes
In the hope that elf-senpai will notice me
If you make players roll stats they're going to roll bad ones, and then they're going to either cheat so they can play an effective character, or get their initial character killed so they can make a better one. Rolled stats a shit and the only reason anyone does it is from sheer grognardery.
Here is another example.
We have three characters. Arnold the Rogue, Billy the Wizard, and Rickey the Barbarian. They are all level 5.
They each have their primary stat at 22 and their secondary stat at 16.
Arnold, being a rogue, does not have many expendable resources each day. So he is exempt from this example.
Rickey the barbarian has limited rounds of rage, and is only able to use his rage powers during this time. With 16 con and being level 5, Rickey can rage for 15 rounds per day.
Now let's look at Billy the wizard. He specializes in a school, transmutation, this means he gets 1 extra spell slot per level. This means he has 4 first level spells, 3 second level, and 2 third level. In addition he gets bonus spell slots, meaning he gets 2 bonus 1st level, 2 bonus 2nd level, and 1 bonus 3rd level.
This accounts for 14 levels of spell PER DAY. If he casts a spell every round in combat this means he has only one less effective rounds as the barbarian for their expendable resource.
This does not include his school powers, which he has by virtue of being a wizard.
This also does not include the possibility of him having a bonded object, which would put him at the same number of expendable rounds as the barbarian.
This is at level 5, it only grows worse at later levels where the number of spell slots increases faster than the number of rage rounds (or other expendable resources for classes such as gunslingers, cavaliers, paladins, brawlers and more) due to increasing ability score modifiers.
These players have the same number of effective rounds, except for the few outliers that do not have expendable resources, these being Fighters and Rogues.
But anon, rolling stats are fun, my last character had a total modifier of +3 while the second lowest had a +10, and it was fun to bring absolutely anything to the table, it was super fun when the wizard's familiar, at it was, had better stats than me and better skills than me!. I had so much fun that, due the GM not letting me reroll to have a less fun character, I stopped playing.
Yes it is. Martials are doing 2d6 base weapon damage, plus 1.5 STR mod, plus they get more damage out of Power Attack, plus they have more STR because less MAD. Monks are the worst class at every level.
That's pretty retarded anon. If something's called dnd it's dnd, regardless of what you call it. Unless you're rejecting it just because it's an edition that isn't caster edition?
>Similar ability formatting=everyone's the same
Have you actually played 4e? Ever?
>yfw you've never met a caster who follows all the rules for arcane casting
>yfw following all the rules is a massive pain in the ass
I'm using the level 5 example. In this case the wizard can be assumed to have 4 available second level slots for invisibility lasting 5 minutes each if he REALLY needed to be invisible that long.
In actuality he likely does not, 5 minutes is more than enough time for most snatch and grabs.
Indeed a wizard if he is smart does not prepare all his slots, as he does not know exactly what he will face during the day. He will prepare 1-2 combat's worth of slots and leave the rest empty for utility depending on how combat heavy the day is.
This means for the example below with his 5+1, 4+1, and 2+1 slots he will prepare 3 first level, 3 second level and 2 third level for 8 combat effective rounds at the beginning of the day. This leaves 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 1 level 3 spell for utility purposes.
I'm assuming these are reasonably competent players who realize that the best defense is a good offense. The greatest threats aren't going to be targeting your AC, the only way to beat them is to kill them before they use that SoL.
'kay. Fighter with a longsword instead does 1d8 damage (compared to the monk's 1d8 unarmed)+str, which is gonna be higher as outlined above, also +feats, and has a better crit range. If the fighter wants to be a dick to the monk too, he can pack a tower shield (since the -2 to AB is offset by his high BAB compared to the monk's medium) and get +4 AC, likely comparable to the monk's monk AC bonus
>If you don't realize that..you've either never played or had a shit DM.
Yeah m8, keep telling yourself that. Rogues and monks pale in comparison as mage killers to barbarians and ranged combatants (with the cyclonic enchantment, which everyone seems to forget exists).
I've never found one outside of new players who doesn't follow them.
They're terrified of getting hurt to the point where they don't think entirely logically, they're used to acting defensively and letting others do the killing, they follow a proud family tradition...
Had a fighter and a cleric like that, S&B, feats to increase AC, combat expertise and the cleric only spends his spells in healing himself. They died always and keep doing the same characters nomatter what I told them, I was afraid of putting a NPC to help them, so I changed system for some that treats equally all options...they hated it. Gave up in GMing them.
Shield bashing, crusader, bodyguard/similar feats in pf, sacred shield...
A defensive character might be seen as weak compared to a purely offensive one, but that's often just because most people don't go defensive enough. I play in an Iron Gods pathfinder campaign with a sacred shield who can grant everyone +10 shield AC for 2 uses of lay on hands, can heal, and can halve a specific enemy's AC against anyone other than him
What happens if he, you know, leaves the room then flies? Or if it's a high ceiling? What if he turns invisible? Or dimension doors away? Or earth glides? Or literally dozens of spells that remove him from the rogue & monk's effective combat zone.
No really, it's sadly true. In an emergency a wizard, past level 3, should be able to get away unless they've played badly. Literally dozens of spells that fit every archetype except pure blaster exist for doing this (even a few pure blaster ones technically exist like Ride the Lightening).
>You've never played.
>act like an idiot
>accuse others of never playing
You sound the last group I joined from /tg/ that nerfed barbarians because they were "overpowered" and let me play a transmutation sin mage instead. Fucking christ I hated those people. I'm convinced two of them were actual retards.
Yeah, it's something that takes a fair bit of finagling to make work well, especially in 3.5. On the plus side, in 3.5 the Crusader and Knight, as well as the Animated shield property are built for people like that.
You're missing the point, bucko. I don't want to play with the RPG equivalent of MMO hotbar abilities, like the flaming crown of the paladin, or the aptly named "DURRCLANG" of Bloody Path, where even the most well trained martial enemy is forced to attack himself because you have an ability that says so, with no ability to save against it. I don't want a game where I need the game to give me permission to use both weapons when I dual wield. I want to play DnD, not World of Dungeoncraft.
I like for my character to stay alive. Can't roleplay my dwarf cleric who used to be an influential noble and captain in the military but was kicked out due to violating an immoral order by my superior, and attempting to reconcile having to both harm and heal people isn't possible when you died protecting some farmer because you wanted to be a gruff protector type when tanking doesn't exist mechanically.
This is a discussion about elves. If you want a discussion about game design, theres a thread for that somewhere else. Go whine to them.
Speaking of which, elves ask humans for help for a few reasons. Firstly, they dont breed much, so they dont have the numbers to handle all the problems they encounter. One wizard might be enough to handle an orc tribe, but a few arrows will ruin anyone's day and the council wont spare any rangers to watch your back, so you hire a few human mercinaries to be your meat shields.
Then maybe one of them is smarter than you expected. Maybe they have a gift for magic that is rare even in your people. Or maybe they just make you laugh. And then you stay a bit longer. There are always more orcs after all. Before ya know it you have been teaching three generations of humans wizardry and they are doing better than you expected and boy did Jessie grow up and out fast and why is she buying me a drink now?
And thats why humans and elves still get along, despite everything.
Also, in what system do elves have a racial ability to move and fire bows at the same time?
Second, does OP realize that elves aren't the only race that can see in the dark (Even though elves don't have darkvision in DnD, unless they're drow)?
And how is using magic swords a fucking plus that you have to put down to hype a race? Like you need an ability to use them, other than martial training? What the hell are you playing?
>Speak multiple languages
Again, hyping something that is completely normal in a roleplaying game.
>Invisible while in a natural setting
Again, what are you playing?
>Immunity to ghoul paralysis
>If you play a caster it simulates the entitlement of rich and famous people and their grasp over the common folks.
u wot m8?
Dunno, someone even told me that elves are immune to that in even older editions, but right now I can't corroborate it. I guess someone thought it should be cool and then stood as a tradition?
Most wizards? Unless the GM always specifically kills wizards at level 1 and bans people making casters at any other level.
(Hell if we're talking about other broken casters, like clerics, their AC and HP will be comparable to
For wizards, and other d6 classes, it is the difference between going unconscious after 1 hit or after 2. Stand in the back and use battlefield control. Grease, color spray, and sleep are your friends.
Of those 3, grease is the only real option for someone who's going mainly for survivability. Sleep takes a full round to cast, leaving you vulnerable to stabbing, and colour spray puts you at most 3 squares away from your target, meaning you're gonna have a bad time if they pass their save.
Grease meanwhile slows them whether or not they pass their save, making it invaluable to the wizard who wants to live.
I can't believe an entire board full of grognards didn't get a first edition joke.
All of those are the special abilities of elves from back then. Hell, I think some of them go back to Chainmail. Immunity to ghoul paralysis, 3/6 chance of finding a secret door, fire and move etc.
In which case the correct answer is, of course, that elves are limited to level 4 as a fighter and level 8 as a magic-user, after which, RAW, they stop advancing. Game balance was fucking bizarre back in the day.
To be fair, the 'a wizard has always perfectly prepared everything in advance' posting is pretty dumb too. Unless you're gonna argue every wizard ever to live alarms every room they go in.
That said, rogues don't beat casters. Maybe a swordsage/shadowdancer, but not a rogue. Though that said, if the wizard isn't the paranoid sort, a good assassination is a pretty successful strategy a lot of the time.
I loved racial level limits.
I remember limited weapon profincey..
And how annoying that it was for my human mage to not be allowed a sword or bow ever..but those fucking elves all used them.
In both a fight to the death and a mere get away I'd put my money on the wizard the vast majority of the time unless the situation is specifically crafted to be in the rogue's favor.
>Wizard color sprays rogue
>Rogue fails save due to low Will and low Wisdom due to MAD
>Wizard laughs at the rogue's seizure
This is assuming level 1, if it's higher they're even more mismatched.
Really depends on the rest of the group. I wouldn't play with more than a two tier gap (an unarchetyped fighter with a wizard). If everyone is within three tiers though, it's normally ok unless people power game (well, most of the time).
Why is this wizard able to be snuck up on while asleep. Why is his spell book not somewhere that is either unable to be taken from OR will wake him up? Why does this wizard not have a back up spell book (something every wizard should have past level 3-4).
So no actual fight then, just an assumption that the wizard is asleep and has his spellbook on him. Are we talking a scenario where the wizard knows someone's out to get him? 'cause then it becomes impossible for the rogue to succeed. Otherwise it's just possible if the wizard doesn't take precautions when sleeping (a fair assumption, but not a given by any means)
Surprise and backstab is brutal.
And when does it happen? As the mage is reading his spells? Mid combat? While the mage sleeps?
Rogues can be deadly. Not saying mages can't be, but smart money will bet on the rogue.
>Surprise and backstab is brutal.
Yeah, so I'm being backstabbed by a team mate?
>And when does it happen? As the mage is reading his spells? Mid combat? While the mage sleeps?
I'm being attacked in my sleep by a team mate backstabbing me?
Seriously, if you have to twist the situation like this then you're being a claud.
>Rogues can be deadly. Not saying mages can't be, but smart money will bet on the rogue.
No, it really isn't. If the rogue doesn't secure a kill on the first his he's done, and most likely he won't secure a kill because he doesn't do enough damage. After that the rogue is fucked because he has a piss poor will save and the wizard can easily leave the rogue's effective combat zone with any number of spells.
You have to be trolling.
Backstab with who exactly? 'cause if your answer is with anyone else, you're bringing other people into this and invalidating the scenario. Also rogues get fuck all for spot/listen (no wisdom+sleeping penalties) and wizards have invisibility as a spell, so the wizard can kill the rogue while sleeping just as easily as the opposite. Or maybe easier, given the wizard has a familiar to play lookout and the rogue doesn't.
>wizard is awake
>rogue loses because piss poor will save
I don't see your point.
Unless the wizard has literally no spell slots when you catch him asleep, and if he does why did you run away?
Mage: The Ascension markets itself all the way through as "Playing Wizards: The Game", whilst D&D markets itself as a game about fantasy adventurers where wizards are supposedly an exception (especially if you go way back, where parties made up entirely of fighters were not only possible but expected to be common), and players have to explore the system to realize that it's actually impractical to play in any other way.
So were back to assuming that wizards always have spells ready, and never run out. And also assuming that a rogue is stupid, and wouldn't pick the absolute worst moment for the mage.
>all NPCs are stupid
Fuck that. If I play a rogue who needs a wizard dead, he'll die. I'll pick the perfect time, and strike.
I'll follow at a distance, and then strike as he's casting a spell. I'll catch him in the library ad he's looking for a book. I'll get him as he tries to copy a scroll.
Rogues, are deadly.
>Dead due to a single 1d6+1 arrow.
Most wizards will have 14 con, and can spare their favored class bonus, so begin play with 9hp normally (8 if they're being stingy with their con).
So no, not dead with one arrow. EVEN THEN they don't die, they go unconscious.
And then it has to hit their AC.
Like I fucking said, it's the difference between going unconscious after 1 or 2 hits. Survivability at level 1 does not vary hugely, especially between d6 and d8 classes. Once you hit d10 and d12 they may take 3 hits, but no class at level 1 survives more than 3 hits on average.
The facts that wizards are back line characters makes them fairly secure and able to survive. As a wizard if I see someone with a longbow they're getting sleep'd first because they are a danger. If they win initiative and hit me I trust my party members to handle it while I'm down (with the cleric possibly channeling).
1d4+3 HP, maxed for 1st level gives 7 HP (+favoured class bonus if PF, would appreciate some clarification as to system). 18 AC from mage armour+shield, possible cover from allies (Always put the wizard in the middle of the group folks) and initiative from diviner (if applicable) has them going first anyway. The only way the mage is dying from 1 arrow is a crit, and that's unlikely from a level 1 enemy against AC 18. Also higher AC if they take dex.
You chose a tactic that would get the rogue killed, and everyone pointed out it would get them killed. Why so butthurt?
>Wizard is casting a spell
>Trips a AOO
>Stab him in the face and break his concentration.
>My turn in initiative order so I grapple
>Wizard fails due to having 6 strength and 8 dex
>MFW my level 18 monk can kill a level 3 wizard.
>So were back to assuming that wizards always have spells ready, and never run out. And also assuming that a rogue is stupid, and wouldn't pick the absolute worst moment for the mage.
We're assuming a smart wizard doesn't leave himself at actually zero spells with no defenses in a place the rogue can easily get to, yes.
>Fuck that. If I play a rogue who needs a wizard dead, he'll die. I'll pick the perfect time, and strike.
Holy fucking shit. You realize you can't make this argument while trying to say "rogues are better". This isn't an argument for rogues, it's an argument for timing and picking your battles. Literally you could replace the word rogue with ANY FUCKING CLASS and the sentence would not change for it. Your statement had nothing to do with you being a rogue. Hell in the reverse it is just as valid, as a wizard I wait for the perfect time to strike.
>I'll follow at a distance, and then strike as he's casting a spell. I'll catch him in the library ad he's looking for a book. I'll get him as he tries to copy a scroll.
Ok, sure, you fucking stalk this wizard for months and wait until he's unprepared for combat. This goes for literally fucking anyone. Anyone dies when they're exhausted and out of resources.
>Rogues, are deadly.
>As a wizard if I see someone with a longbow they're getting sleep'd first
1 full round casting time anon. That'd just get you shot mid-cast. At level 1, you'd probably be better off casting Shield or using total defense/dropping prone for +4 ac. Or use total defense *and* drop prone, for +8 AC vs projectiles.
At least AC 14, because mage armour, so as a level 1 rogue with 18-20 dex you're looking at about a 50/50 chance of hitting, and a low, low chance of killing.
My mistake, and my apologies. But you responded to a post describing why 'lol trip alarm and run' wouldn't work, nothing more.
Also, the mental ping alarm only sounds once, and doesn't tell you where the book is located. So we're forced to ask the question once a mage is awake, "Can you find a rogue with a high stealth check?"
Except we're talking about the wizard who can only cast a 15 ft cone effect three times a day that fails a majority of the time since bow people are out of range. Also a 18 AC means he can't cast spells with gestures due to him using one or both of his hands on a shield.
What's the radius on an alarm? IIRC rogues in 3.5 can sneak attack from a certain distance, if that's the case you might be able to crossbow snipe a sleeping wizard to death without tripping their alarm.
A rogue with a high stealth check in a 10 foot cube next to you. Even if they can't find you they color spray the cube, because they're somewhere in it if they tripped the alarm.
They know someone is hostile there, they get two perception checks because of their familiar, and the rogue doesn't know the wizard is awake.
Also the rogue doesn't know where the book is unless he somehow stole it before he entered the 10 foot cube the book was in.
>Assuming the monk can get within melee range of someone who can fly and dimension door
>Assuming that having all three good saves matters when you're the most MAD class in the game
>Assuming the wizard can't fuck you up even without targeting saves
The wizard flies above you and surrounds you with summoned monsters, what now?
Unfortunately grapple spells do them in, as does solid fog, or even the age old dimensional anchor+forcecage at higher levels
Shield spell doesn't take up a hand, and the question was never 'make a wizard who can solo kill an archer who's a long distance off', it's 'make a wizard who can survive 1st level'. The wizard goes to ground, buffs allies and lets the cleric handle him if he does get hit in spite of 22 AC while prone/buffed.
They can sneak attack from 30 ft away, which is far. Alarm has 20 ft radius. But simultaneously the rogue has no idea what area the alarm covers or even if there is one, and something as simple as a tent can foil the sneak attack (concealment)
You don't get sneak attack unless you're hiding behind something, and the rogue doesn't know about the alarm in the first place, so the real question is 'what the hell is the rogue hiding behind, and why did the paranoid wizard choose an area with large objects to hide behind?'
Yes, the rogue gets a sneak attack. We were talking about the spell book being stolen for the alarm argument though.
Even getting hit by a sneak attack for a comparable level rogue (lets say Arnold and Billy from above). The rogue doesn't kill on the first hit and is now revealed because he made an attack. from here the wizard can take a number of options depending on what he has prepared. Or depending on what he has with him (if he has a bonded object), just cast spontaneously.
Our last game;
>mage player brags about how awesome mages are. Keeps saying that the fighter and monks need to switch classes or be irrelevant.
>Skype messages exchanged
>combat is in a cave..two trolls
>mage casts grease and prepares to burn it.
>rest of party flees and let's mage handle it.
>mage dies. Gets mad.
Shit was funny as hell.
This post >>44881736
was in response to this post>>44881681
which was asking about the alarm spell radius in regards to a sneak attack, which had nothing to do with the book stealing argument.
Also, wizards are notoriously squishy, so given a rogue and a wizard with comparable levels, I think a rogue can one shot a wizard with a sneak attack, assuming we're talking a 3.5 wizard that doesn't max out his HP each level.
I was talking about a pathfinder wizard, I don't play much 3.5 so I can't speak for it. In pathfinder a rogue of that level is expected to do 4d6+6-9 damage on a sneak attack, or an average 20-23. A wizard is expected to have 28-34hp.
But again, I can't speak for 3.5.
If we were doing the level 5 argument I'd likely, as a wizard waking up in this situation, cast invisibility and hide (I normally take bonded object so having that for emergencies like these as a spontaneous spell wild card). Being attacked while I was asleep puts me at a disadvantage. If I can fight the rogue then I'd move to engage, if not I'd grab my spellbook and leave.
It's debatable really, and again, a simple tent solves the issue outdoors, while indoors the alarm will likely cover the whole of the room anyway.
The reason I say it's debatable is 'cause wizards only really need int, so they're free to dump all their other points in con. So the level 1 wizard has 4+3=6 HP, and their HP progresses faster than the rogue's damage. A sneak attack will likely drop him at level 1, but that's difficult to come by as outlined above.
>Someone talked shit out of character so we metagamed it and betrayed his character in-character, despite having no in-character reason to do so.
If someone's a dick, ask them to leave. Passive-aggressive metagaming is dumb.
Not to mention he could well have done something if he hadn't planned for his allies to not betray him
Newb here, I got into role playing with DnD recently with my play group. I hate the balancing in DnD and I wanted a more simulation like game. If there a better alternatives please say them. I'm thinking Shadowrun but I'm not sure. ANy help would be appreciated.
Wait, so you left a level 4 wizard to fight 2 CR 5 trolls? For a party of four that counts as an "epic" encounter by rules.
Hell, if it was all of you there was a good chance the trolls would have simply killed you.
A single troll can do up to 1d8+3d6+22 damage per round. That averages to 37 damage. That's unconscious in a single full attack for everyone except barbarians.
Not really, but the point is more that running around outside the alarmed zone setting stuff on fire isn't exactly guaranteed.
Alchemist's fire isn't napalm, or if it is it doesn't do nearly the damage you're implying. 1d6 damage for a direct hit, 1 damage indirect (which wouldn't happen because tent) and if the tent is ruled to set the wizard on fire, that's still only d6 damage. Given the idea is to avoid giving the wizard a chance to act, that seems silly.
I play an arcanist (pathfinder wizard/sorcerer hybrid) in a party with 0 meatshield.
It was quite hard to fight like that. Summoning was banned for plot reasons.
Although they become somewhat irrelevant at high levels I would love to have meatshield.
That's exactly what we did.
We're not stupid. And going in was a bad idea.
We ran. He stayed and cast grease. We lived. He died.
Yes, a mighty mage died( rather easily).
Lemme guess.. He just did a wizard wrong? Because you would have done (x), and won the day.
Drop as a free action, roll as a move to get a dc 15 reflex save at a +4 to extinguish. Also you get a reflex save to avoid catching fire in the first place. Also has the handy bonus of giving the wizard +4 AC against the rogue.
From the way it sounds, the wizard took his turn with the 'tanks' in place, then they ran away between his turn and the troll's turns. Wizard had a plan and they fucked it up via metagaming due to being salty out of character, really.
Also they get a reflex save to stop themselves catching on fire, another to stop their bag catching on fire, then another one to stop the book catching fire.
It means that unless your GM is a retard you're not going to be succeeding on any Concentration rolls, meaning you can't use your most powerful spells since they'll fizzle from being on fire. Putting it out will cost you actions, and each action you miss, especially if you spend it rolling on the ground, is another crossbow sneak attack (from which you're no longer concealed because presumably you've left the inferno your tent just turned into). You will not act on the first turn anyway since you need an action to get up from being prone (unless you're sleeping while standing inside your tent) and another one to leave it.
A wizard in that level cannot survive two sneak attacks in a row.
>So does that very flammable spell book.
I'm a wizard. My spell book is my most precious possession. Do I really not put it somewhere safe? In normal play I always keep my spell book inside of a sealed metal box when not in use. Anyone who doesn't is a retard.
>Because you would have done (x), and won the day
Actually yes he could have, but that isn't the point. He was a retard who stayed to fight an encounter far out of his pay grade, he died because the player was dumb, not because wizards are somehow bad.
Drop prone for +4 AC against missles, roll as a move action, sneak attack doesn't work as the wizard isn't flat footed any more. There are rules for concentrating while taking continuous damage, it's DC 10+1/2 continuous damage last dealt, or DC 13 maximum.
So yes. If I am attacked in my sleep and caught on fire while at low levels and fail my concentration check.
Just so you know, it's likely one can pass the concentration check. From fire it's on average a DC 13. A level 3 wizard has approximately a +8, so he makes it 75% of the time. Trying to put yourself out in the dumb move.
Also being in the tent on fire doesn't set you on fire, you get a save for that as well, so you know.
So it requires me to fail a save, then fail an easy concentration check.
Yeah. It's almost like people forget that spell slots are chosen when you wake up so conveniently having a "all half-robot creatures take 6 rust damage per round" spell prepared when a surprise robot pops out of a pickle barrel isn't really feasible.
You made so many wrong assumptions about the system I don't even know where to start.
The concentration check is easy to make. Likely the wizard is not on fire. The rogue is targetable and the wizard is no longer flat footed so they don't get sneak attacks. God damn.
The wizard is still inside the goddam tent and the rogue is most likely (unless he's completely retarded) hidden from view in a tree or something with a prepared action to shoot the wizard in the face when he pops his flaming head out of the tent.
You realize that not only do people have spontaneous spells, but they also don't have to prepare all their slots. If suddenly there is a surprise and we're facing fey when we weren't expecting to, unless those were the only fey, my spell list can adapt.
Also the best spells aren't "I counter robots" they're spells that work against everyone. That's why the school of enchantment and illusion are pretty garbage.
Not a problem really. This rule was mentioned before character creation. All we had to do was plan accordingly.
Mirror Image, fly and invisibility carried my quite well. And with enough buff from me and our bard, our dex based slayer pulled great aggression from our foes and become a pseudo meatshield.
No. It is just given combat scenarios are bad. You don't fight an intelligent wizard like that
You do know you have to spend X minutes per level of said spell to add it to your prepared list right? So taking that fireball out of your book is going to take the entirety of combat to do.
>what are spontaneous spells
>what are multi purpose spells
>what are leaving slots unprepared
And you know what I do in this situation? I use my bonded object and spontaneously cast invisibility with belongings in hand before simply leaving. if I see the rogue I engage, if I don't I just leave. If I'm higher level I do one better and dimension door away. If I'm level 5 I sleep in a fucking rope trick because I'm not suicidal.
Again, it's not for THAT combat. You use general purpose spells if you're fighting something entirely unexpected. It's not as if things like grease has many creatures it simply stops working on.
Wide purpose spells are what people prepare. Narrow purpose spells are only prepared when you know you're facing specific targets.
If you're in my group you immediately get kicked due to being a paranoid That Guy that disrupts play with meta-gaming nonsense and being a asshole to the guys who don't play Tier 1 full casters.
How am I disrupting play? Because I run away if a rogue lights my tent on fire? Because I sleep in a rope trick? The rest of the party can stay in it too, it's big enough for everyone.
I'm not even being an asshole, I just come prepared for most situations. I don't care if people play martials, it's their character, do with it what they want.
If that's what triggers you then you're the one being an autist.
>somehow sleeping in a rope trip, a spell designed for a safe sleeping environment, is paranoid
These are people who travel through dungeons for a living and through dangerous wilderness. A rope trick is a reasonable precaution.
If I'm somewhere I think is safe then I don't waste the slot (like an inn or some shit), but if I'm traveling of course I'll offer the party a friendly rope trick to sleep in instead of tents where we're visible and exposed to the elements.
Playing tier 1 full casters in a party of tier 3-4 is not that bad. Don't steal spotlight, buff your comrades, debuff some enemies. Provide helpful support outside of the combat if necessary.
I didn't see anyone annoyed with my full caster characters in a party for tier 3-4 characters. And I heavily optimize my characters. It is like a fun mini-game for me.
Correction: You're in a flaming tent when a hidden assassin is 20-30 ft away in an area you yourself specifically chose, as someone paranoid enough to sleep with an Alarm spell up.
>Literally living an adventurerer life dealing with lethal danger everywhere
>Not being paranoid
Dude, I don't usually play casters, but as a barbarian I sleep with my back leant on a tree and hugging my greatsword, also with a spare light armor because I can't sleep on medium or heavy.
There's a level of metagaming autism that, once passed by a player, should always invoke the final solution.
"I'm the GM. I say you get a stroke. You die."
And if the player doesn't want to play anymore, you pat yourself on the back and take the rest of the group, hopefully made up of less autistic people, to drink something together.
You can't play to win in a game somebody else ultimately makes the rules in.
Same deal with DMs. If my character rests in the middle of the woods with a alarm spell up and some rogue pops out of nowhere with flaming bolts and a detailed knowledge of the invisible alarm system I set up, I'm gonna be fucking out of that game like no man's business.
'We could all be in there with him, but that's not manly enough! Real men sit outside and wait for someone to try and kill us!'
What reason do they have for not wanting to be nigh-unassailable while resting anon? Unless of course you're metagaming it
Not really. A scenario was suggested to put the rogue at a massive advantage (rogue knows exactly where the wizard's invisible alarm is and how far it goes out, wizard decided to rest in an area with plenty of places to hide, rogue knows exactly where the wizard is resting on the rogue because fuck you) at level 1, and someone pointed out they'd rather have their character just turn invisible and leave than fight a guy they have no need to fight.
>Being a friendly caster
This might be surprising to you, but I have never seen a full caster be helpful to the party. There was that one heal or cleric NOC but otherwise they've all been selfish assholes that look out for only themselves and don't even care if half the party gets caught in whatever AoE damage spell they cast.
I've played in 9 pathfinder games in the last year and 8 of them where all of these statements have been correct.
When you play the game with the intention of "showing" everyone that you're invincible, brag about how you invalidate everyone else' existence, and generally munchkin the shit out of it, nobody would fault a GM for killing your character and they would thank him for kicking you out. You cannot "win" at D&D and you certainly can't "beat the system". If you're not playing with the aim of making the experience fun for everyone around the table, you should be removed from it.
People are bouncing between level 1 and 5 for what proposed level this is.
Stop playing with assholes? See, the thing is your anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much considering I've played in groups where full casters are very helpful.
First hit dice are maxed out, not rolled for.
No one is fucking doing that. You're jumping at shadows and shouting at a boogieman that isn't there. You keep moving the goalposts because you have no argument. Just stop, you're being pathetic.
Please tell me more lies about casters not being assholes.
Hit dice are not maxed out except for the first one unless you want ro be completely invincible the entire game.
Because I've seen the average wizard being 18 int with 16 dex and nothing else.
And from the looks of things we have another infinite slots. Say, how long was the wizard resting before burn motherfucker burn? How many slots had been used beforehand?
These are important questions that both of you are ignoring.
Mage armour, so at level 1 that's a 50/50 chance of the rogue landing a blow. That's ignoring that the '1 sneak attack=dead mage' has been talked over and established as wrong multiple times by now.
Vanish. Course, at level 3 the wizard is well out of 1 hit kill range, so has no need to run, or can just cast rope trick
Why con 10? The wizard has int primary and nothing else, he can easily afford to spend the rest of his ability points in con.
Who said anything about 'showing people you're invincible', bragging or muchkining? You literally said someone should be kicked from a game just for taking actions to stop their character getting killed in a game where rogues hunt down wizards in their sleep for no explained reason, taking precautions against that isnt 'muchkining the shit out of' anything, it's just trying to play a character in a game where the deck's stacked against you.
You're playing with idiots, a competent wizard player knows that damage spells are shit and that he can contribute more to the party by doing things no one else does. As for heal clerics: they're actually doing it wrong, it's better to be proactive than reactive in combat and just patch everyone up with a CLW wand afterwards.
>Hit dice are not maxed out except for the first one unless you want ro be completely invincible the entire game.
No, that's what I just said. The frist hit dice is maxed out, not rolled for.
>Please tell me more lies about casters not being assholes.
To be honest you may fall under the saying "If everywhere you go it smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes.". If you think everyone else is the problem you might be the problem.
>Because I've seen the average wizard being 18 int with 16 dex and nothing else.
Con is far more important than dex normally, I find 16 con more often than 16 dex.
Well not all wizards are divination wizards asshat. If we're assuming the wizard is built to optimize at every situation in this white room discussion we may as well be screaming at each other on the playground for all that actually gets discussed.
>since rogues are best at getting initiative bonuses.
Actually that's divination wizards. They add their dex mod & half their level. They can also have a initiative familiar, and unlike rogues are much more free to spend their feats on improved initiative (not needing stuff like weapon finesse and two weapon fighting).
>rope trick duration is 1 hour/level
>memorization requires 8 hours of rest.
>basically anything but studying and sleeping breaks the rest.
>including casting spells.
Maybe, but that's kinda assuming. Honestly, what would you do in the situation where the DM says 'okay, you've set up camp for the night, casted alarm, put your familiar on watch... Your tent catches on fire, roll initiative'
Bear in mind the rogue is to all intents and purposes invisible, and the DM classes running away or finding a more secure way of resting
>you immediately get kicked due to being a paranoid That Guy that disrupts play with meta-gaming nonsense and being a asshole to the guys who don't play Tier 1 full casters.
Or the wizard can have a initiative familiar. Really there are a lot of ways wizards have good initiative.
Again, this argument is wrong as it's base. The game isn't a pvp one. One of the major problems is the in combat utility difference between casters and non caster and the out of combat utility between them.
Even if the wizard isn't a diviner, he'll still have a higher initiative at first level because he isn't starved for feats. The rogue will put his first two into Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting.
How about then any wizard with a Compsognathus familiar? or a hare? or a dodo? or a greensting scorpion? or with nerveskitter? or impoved initiative because they have feats to spare? or other shit.
Weapon finesse requires a +1 BAB first so taking it at first level is retarded. Also any rogue worth his salt is taking improved initiative as well as any magic items that help his sneak attack damage.
I played several fullcasters in different games. Most of the time I alternated between buffing, debuffing and battlefield control.
Right know I have a character dedicated on crafting fancy stuff for our party. I am even blowing my own wbl for our warlord.
Being " your friendly neighborhood full caster" is awesome. However once when we were edge of a tpk, everybody but me was unconscious, going full nova and obliterating the boss dragon was awesome. But doing it everytime and stealing spotlight is not a good way to play this game.
I mean, ok, sure. Even so the wizard has a free +4 from his familiar if he chose to take any of the like 4 familiars of this kind. That makes up the difference in dexterity. Then with improved initiative the two of them are on an equal playing field.
But simultaneously, any wizard worth his salt is picking Nerveskitter and a +4 init familiar, assuming they're not building around their character doing something else with the familiar. That alone makes up for the rogue's +5 dex+4 improved init, and the wizard can take improved init on top of that. This isn't unreasonable either, considering how important init is for casters.
>literally like 5 familiars, which are the best options, that give you +4 to Ini
>literally free to choose feats because not feat starved as martials so pick improved ini (+4) because it makes you go first which is the best option
>"Hurr durr most optimized"
You're a retard, this is like saying a barb with greatsword is the most optimized barbarian
This isn't though. It started off with a rogue that can track (because they found the wizard in the middle of nowhere), knows spellcraft (since they knew about the wizard's alarm and how to avoid it), they were packing alchemists fire crossbow bolts and is specialised in ranged combat despite that being pointless beyond first level, since Alarm negates a melee rogue. The original level 1 rogue was specifically built for the situation, all the wizard stuff spiralled off of that.
>Seriously, this shit gets nowhere because it's always, optimized wizards vs average whatever. I can't be the only one to notice it
If you think +4 ini bonus familiar is optimized you never encountered an optimized wizard.
So how is having an alarm and a familiar dumb? The rogue was already built for ranged (allusions to point blank shot were made) to negate the alarm, so exactly what's wrong with the wizard having a fairly standard spell up for someone without someone able to keep watch for them? (Note: Saying 'without someone to keep watch for them' because any familiar with darkvision+open terrain would make this easy)
>Magic users = raw damage and specialized killers
Fuck you, that's absolutely not why casters are strong.
It's because they're useful in ALL aspects of the game.
>there's a giant chasm blocking your path
>I cast Fly/Overland Flight
>you are starving in the desert
>I cast Create Food and Water
>language you can't understand?
There's a spell for everything. Couple this with Craft Magic Shit and a caster who never enters combat will already be contributing a HUGE amount of utility to his party.
This is ignoring all the stuff casters can do in combat; the problem is that magic has answers to every threat.
It's like you two are ignoring everyone's points to just tell each other that you're right.
Maybe it's because you don't actually have an argument
Pls show where anyone has talked about infinite slots here. Mage armour (which got ignored quickly by the pro-rogue side, so irrelevent) Alarm Rope Trick and Invisibility are the only spells that have been mentioned so far, since any talk of offensive spells has the pro-rogues going 'but the rogue is hidden in the treetops while simultaneously within 30 ft of you for sneak attack!'
Scrolls and wands were also never mentioned in the context of level 1 rogue vs level 1 wizard.
Plus they make magic items and it costs them nothing. Because "mages".
It seems they also get lots of feats..that they use to buff combats ( while still having lots of feats for metamagic and item creation).
Did you even play a caster?
If you built somewhat competent caster it slots are more than enough even after out of combat utility. Though it is true that first leves are a little bit tihght on slot budget.
I spend my leftover slots on long near 24 hour buffs (All party sporting overland flight everyday after some point) and divinations. And there are still leftover slots.
Ah yes, and pointing out the flaws that always come up, once again infinite slots, infinite magical resources, get their spells back upon waking even if it hasn't been 8 hours, somehow batman, very rarely like vs like, and no actual randomness.
Oh and on the rope trick thing...
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
So does Rope Trick require concentration? If so... There goes that old chestnut.
Rope trick doesn't need concentration. When has any 'infinite' stuff come up?
I was assuming solo wizard, not adventuring (suicide at level 1), but nonetheless going around with certain spells (alarm, mage armour etc) prepared in case he came into trouble on the road. He woke up with those spells prepared because they're broadly effective spells for most attacks, not specialised to any specific scenario, and because he hadn't had cause to use them before the rogue showed up.
But please, show me where anyone's talked about infinite spells. I'll be waiting.
They're just pure badass.
At lv 1: wake up, cast mage armor which lasts all day
Then cast spells as needed to instantly end all encounters.
Then cast alarm, go in our tent, cast rope trick while are familiar keeps watch.
And they're always changing the level goalposts, and often violating rules (muh extra slot from specializing, but I conveniently forget must be spent on that school, the wizard above who magically got one hour of studying and 8 of rest. But I'll let the last one slide due to may have saved a couple spell to deal with problems that need a beat down.
They'll make sure every rule is obeyed, except when it comes to casters.
Seriously it's not caster edition, it's theologian edition you fucking morons.
It's a common thing, not specific to this situation.
So basically there's nobody BUT wizards adventuring since they seem to be able to do A-Z 24/7? I guess we can just scrap every non-wizard character idea since they seem to be counterintuitive to the massive constant challenge of playing a game of pretend with someone who seems to want you to lose.
You can still play non-wizards. There's Druids and clerics you can play with but not much else actually if you want to do something besides stick your thumb up your ass while the full casters do everything.
No. They can just do everything, regardless of the actual rules and such, they're definitely the most broken and unbeatable. We'll just ignore theologians doing better than them.
>It's a common thing, not specific to this situation.
So you're circle-jerking over something irrelevent to the thread, is what you're saying. Kill yourself, this is the definition of strawmanning.
Nobody said that in this thread. They simply argued against the idea of a rogue killing a wizard while they sleep, since a wizard has plenty of tools to counter that.
Seriously, are you guys just gonna argue against some strawman that's never even come within a mile of this thread? 'cause if so, go see your doctors about pic related.
We once tried to make a full caster party in D&D...it didn't work as we wanted
It worked even better, 2 druids, 1 cleric and 1 wizard, literally cakecutter the game
Tried in PF and went even better, specially thanks to Witch class
Well with all the "The wizard just counters any and all actions taken against him with spells" talk going on its kinda implied that the dumbass swinging a piece of metal around is less effective at everything.
Any implications are your own to take anon. The silliness started with anons going 'well, rogue beats wizard since all rogues know how Alarm spells work and can track the wizard to his rest location perfectly'. Everything just blew out from there.
Also the game isn't a competitive one, which is the most important part. The whole thread got fucked by people talking about 1v1 'fights' as if they mean anything. In reality, the 'god wizard' works by making enemies easier to kill and allies better at killing. There's a reason the suggested course of action for the rogue ambush was just invisibility->leave.
So in short, the wizard isn't 'better at everything', but it's the fact that they can contribute to and/or survive just about any situation that makes people call them overpowered. The 'dumbasses' swing their bits of metal around while the wizard makes their job that much easier.
And implied that there's forever spells (note, not for alarm which at 5th level should be 10 hours minimum).
But the way up invis which seemed to imply cast and forget.
Of course when you get down to it, the theological casters tend to do that better. But their utility is worse. Plus let us never forget that the most broken class of all time was a caster. Poor truenamer, you were so poorly play tested that no amount of mucking with you could fix you
'Forever spells' were never really mentioned though. Mage armour/shield was brought up, which the pro-rogue side ignored, and as for invisibility, I'm not sure what you're getting at. The example was 'wizard doesn't want to fight, so he uses his bonded object to cast invisibility and makes his escape'. Nothing about pre-casting there.
'Theological casters'? If you mean divine casters, I guess so. I just wanted to point out that 'overpowered' in the context of wizards doesn't mean 'can do everyone's job better than them simultaneously', it means 'never comes across a situation where they aren't majorly useful to the party'
I will note I fucking love playing martials. I'm not playing a single full caster at the moment, and the one time I did (cleric) the only thing I really did was buffs, with a tiny hint of debuffs and damage.
Was implied a couple times in other parts of the thread.
But I think we're in a bigger agreement on what the real overpowering nature is, by fucking off of this solo shit that even the original tier dude did.
A little, it was more the cleric-druid method of casting. Since with 3.5 you had the Archivist as divine and more like a mage.
The reason you're an absolute retard and everyone looks down on you is that you could have replaced the Wizard with literally any other fucking class and they'd probably have done just as bad.
Wizards not being omnipotent is not an argument against them being strictly superior to every single martial class.
Go ahead, name a martial that'd have handled those two trolls better?
You're stupid, your nonargument is stupid, you're a waste of space and you should kill yourself.
No one is bragging about it you fucking mongoloid grognard baby.
If you'd wipe your frustrated tears with that shit-covered diaper of yours, you'd realize everyone here is COMPLAINING that full casters invalidate martials.
They WANT casters to be less omnipotent, you fucking ignoramus.
>want casters to be less omnipotent
>complain about 4e
>Don't even mention 5e where the holy shit broken until errata was a technical martial.
Let's face it DivCane Edition and 3e OGL is what is always the complaint.
Wizards aren't even the best tier 1 class, moron.
Artificers are probably the single most versatile and powerful class, but any of the tier 1 classes is as useful as a wizard
Note that no non-caster will ever be close to tier 1
>I think it dates back to Chainmail, the wargame that dnd got based off.
>Presumably elves were made immune to ghoul paralysis for balance reasons
Nah, it's likely because at the time, the "paralysis" was probably meant to be a fear effect. Elf troops were supposed to be elites like in Tolkien, so they could just hold their ground when a horde of the ravening undead hurled themselves at them.
The thing is, the martials have no answer to 100% of the situations for which Wizards do have answers, and then there are things that neither have answers for
The argument for 3.5 being caster edition isn't that casters are immortal demigods that will never lose straight from level one, it's that there's literally not a single thing that a martial can do that a caster can't do better.
Of course the biggest part that has been pointed out is that a caster worth their salt is more valuable than any martial, and that the tiers are skewed towards single player ability over party utility, which would muck shit up for what was wanted (an individual tiering classification) rather than reality where yes wizards would still be in 1, but so would clerics, druids, and bards. That's a real problem, those classes actually pull more weight.
Then again we won't go into why 3e sucked hard by its very design philosophy.