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Can you be a paladin if you're stealing...
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Can you be a paladin if you're stealing power from demons to fight other demons with?
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>>44858045
no.
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>>44858045
Yeah, absolutely. I'll allow it. Hell, in the 13th Age, my generic fantasy setting of choice, that's a thing totally supported by the lore and the mechanics. There's a Paladin option called the Way of Evil Bastards, often utilized by dark knights in service to the Crusader, a moral absolutist who sieges the pits from which demons emerge and then binds them to his service through a pact with dark gods.
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Yeah, sure. Why not? Everyone on /tg/ likes good necromancers, so bad boy paladins should be just fine.
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>>44858045

Can a paladin pick up a demon and beat other demons to death with the first one?

If yes, then yes.
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>>44858045
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>>44858045
I suppose if you're playing D&D 5e you can have sworn an oath of Vengeance and serve one of those diabolic Lawful Evil gods/demons.

The main deal with this would be that you punish all evil, regardless of your own righteousness. You don't show mercy on the wicked, and you see your failing to stop an evil as a personal failure. Thus you'll try to help those effected by your failure.
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>>44858147
But in all seriousness, a vampire who wishes to be free of undeath would have perfectly good reason to revere a sun god.
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>>44858045
She appears once a generation.

>mfw you just described Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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>>44858045
My Devotion Paladin Fiendlock in 5e seems ok
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>>44858045
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>>44858295
this is a terrible fucking meme and you know it
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Why the fuck not? But you better be prepaired for the effects if your in my campaign. You subjugate a demon, making it grant you the power to destroy others (Can even be seen as a holy redemption quest. See: Demon King Sun Wukong).

But the more you take upon yourself, the harder it is to resist corruption. If I'm letting you enjoy the taste of deviant power, you better roleplay for me a few things:
>Your nights may become sleepless, the demons effecting your dreams and senses at night
>That gnawing, itchy feeling of want for things you had sworn to avoid
>Out bursts of rage/ your worst traits
>The slow, unending struggle with the question: Does anyone even care I am rotting from the inside for them? Why should I bother any more?

That creates an interesting character. It creates good role play scenarios. Your end quest could be finding a way to absolve these contracts.
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>>44858307
u wot m8
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>>44858307
>meme
>literally the only answer
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>>44858307
It's also true in many cases and you know it.
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>le good utilitarian necromancer
>le burly brawler dwarf
>le edgy DARK paladin

Why does /tg/ latch onto these shitty special snowflake concepts?
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>>44858336
Sun Wukong was a monkey made of stone, not a demon.
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>>44858363
>>44858348
>>44858337
It kills idea construction threads, leaving only quests, fetish posting, and system generals.
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>>44858378
Literally uses the word demon in the original texts, but the chinese also used "demon" like the japanese used "god": as a way to describe non-human entities.
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>>44858375
How is a burly brawler dwarf a special snowflake concept? Thats as stereotypical as you can get.
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>>44858403
Probably because demons are a part of the afterlife's bureaucracy.
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>>44858384

If your idea of "idea construction" is "one side shouts 3.PF canon as loud as they can and the other side shouts everyone else's canon as loud as they can until one or the other gives up," maybe.
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>>44858384
Or it promotes discussion of specific settings you ignorant fuckwad instead of people butting heads over whether dragons have four, two, or no legs. Damn near nothing is setting-universal, so people need to remember to include fucking context. Without including setting context, you have faggots screaming at each other, trying to establish One Universal Truth in fiction and that goes against the fucking point of fiction.
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>>44858404
I went burly brawler elf, it was the subject of formerly semi-popular storytime.
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>>44858378
I think he's referring to the whole redemption thing he gets going in Journey to the West.
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>>44858471
Burly brawler elf vs wiry dwarf martial artist when?
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>>44858453
if that was the point would say "*according to my setting", because as is, it's just shit posting. You're like fucking Montaigne, "since everything varys with setting, and quality of setting is subjective, there's nothing to discuss, no one can know if something is a good idea or not."
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>>44858471
I was actually very impressed with the witchers wild hunt elves, being fucking huge and menacing.
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>>44858517
>How long is a piece of string?
>There is no answer anyone can give without lying, because different pieces of string can be different lengths.
>Just pick a number at random and say everyone else's numbers are wrong! That's constructive discussion!
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OP is asking about Paladins, a D&D class.
D&D has alignments, namely Good and Evil.
Paladins can't go against their Good alignment ergo he can never have a Paladin that uses demonic (Evil) powers.

There's your fucking idea construction, nerd.
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>>44858622
Arent there versions of DnD Where they can actually be powered by evil shit?
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>>44858622
You seem to forget something, Warlock, a class that gets it's powers from demons (or fey, but lets use demons in this case) can be any alignment, for example Good, in fact, in the description it's said that Good Fiend Warlocks are a thing.

Thats to multiclassing you can be a Paladin/Warlock and use demonic powers and still be Good.
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>>44858517
Isn't the obvious solution then to discuss the setting, and go from there?

In any case it boils down to the setting.

>inb4 subjective means there's no point in discussing it

If that were the case no one would ever talk about anything, ever.
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>>44858045
Not in my game. Sorry
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>>44858453
>Or it promotes discussion of specific settings

Except it never does, because all you "depends on the setting" fags respond to the post saying /thread every single time.

>thout including setting context, you have faggots screaming at each other, trying to establish One Universal Truth in fiction and that goes against the fucking point of fiction.
Just how fucking delusional are you, anyway?
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>>44858734
Well, at least you seem relatively content in your wrongness.
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Depends on if evil and corruption is contagious in your setting or not. If it spreads via contact, power corrupting, etc. Then the paladin is probably in some long term trouble. If not, get ready for some devil may cry fun times.
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>>44858622
But why would it be Evil to *steal an evil things power*, thus making it weaker (which is fighting evil, in a way) and then using said power to destroy even more evil.

OP specified STEALING power from an evil source, not just using it or making contracts with demons or whatever.
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>>44858865
stealing is inherently evil.
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>>44858865
You are still using evil power. If you stole a dictators nuke and used it to blow him up you are still using nuclear weapons.
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>>44858865
Wielding a stolen Evil artifact is generally considered Evil and drinking straight from the Evil faucet is even more Evil than that.
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>>44858879
>stealing is inherently evil.
Starving man steals bread etc etc etc.

It's nongood at worst.
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>>44858622
You can't cast spells with evil descriptor, but evil supernatural, extraordinary and spell like abilities are ok
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>>44858879
Stealing is chaotic, evil plays nothing there, learn your alignments, retard.
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>>44858896
Still evil. Fucker should have got a job or gone foraging if he didnt want to do something evil.
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>>44858849
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>all these replies in fucking no time
Dang

>>44858879
So would confiscating weaponry from captured enemies also be 'evil'? Would it be good to let a criminal keep his gun or sword?

>>44858886
A fair point, although I'm not sure if the comparison really holds that well.
A nuke is a massive item that is bound to have massive collateral damage.
Would I be evil from taking the dictator's gun and shooting him with it? (isn't that what happened in Libya?)

>>44858887
>Wielding a stolen Evil artifact is generally considered Evil
Is that what the rules state? If so, then that's that.
What's so evil about it, though? Is it considered corrupting in some way?

Also, another point:
Doesn't 5e allow non-good aligned paladins anyway?
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>>44858813
>Just how fucking delusional are you, anyway?
So wait, are you saying that A) /tg/ *doesn't* just scream 3.PF/OSR/Exalted/WoD/whatever canon and try to shout down others that disagree, or B) that having a single universal truth shared between all settings isn't anathema to the very concept of fiction?
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>>44858959
>Doesn't 5e allow non-good aligned paladins anyway?
How would that not be an oxymoron? Why would neutral paladins not be greyguards and why wouldn't evil ones not be called antipaladins or blackguards? What is wrong with people?
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>>44858959
>So would confiscating weaponry from captured enemies also be 'evil'?
did i stutter?
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>>44858959
Paladins in 5e are all about Justice, so you have paladins different tipes of paladins, some that go from clearly evil shit ala Punisher, to others more conventional
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>>44858879
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>Using demonic powers to defeat evil is evil
Tell that to him
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>>44858975
C) That's one big strawman you're attacking there
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>>44858959
>What's so evil about it, though? Is it considered corrupting in some way?
Pretty sure handling them would give you Taint.
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>>44859024
I am not sure. How would you even use the power of an enemy against it?

Also, don't good intentions in this case make the use of evil powers good aswell? I mean, you Are kind of using amazing powers of murderkill to retaliate against people who would use those powers to make other people suffer, supposedly. So that would not make you evil, per se... as far as I understand it.

If you, however, used these powers to kill those people and then use them some more to make other people suffer, that would make you evil, I guess. Or is this reasoning flawed somehow?
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>>44859081
>This sword is evil
>Here we have A who uses this sword to kill, maim, torture and enslave people
>Here we have B who uses this sword to fight injustice, defend the innocent and stop the evildoers.
You are saying both are evil?

It all depends on a couple of stuff, are these powers able to change your mind? are these powers just tools?
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>>44859081
In Garo those powers can corrupt you, but that's why only the best knighs are able to don the armor and why, even though some times they're "tainted", they absolutely never fall
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Paladin keeps taking evil artifacts and using them. Becomes so covered in them that he pings evil and gets accosted by other paladins. "The evil was already commited to make these weapons, now they are being used for good. Youre like a vegan that throws out meat as a rebellion against animal cruelty. The animals already dead, now youre wasting the sacrifice."
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>>44859252
And then the paladins smite him for being corrupted.

>>44859209
>the ends justifies the means
>"Yeah, I killed millions but I saved billions guise!"

The worst moral meme.
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>>44859209
The sword itself is not evil, the concept of how you use a sword is.

Also, you are arguing in circles, because I agree that fighting against evil is not evil in itself.
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>>44858045
>"Can you be a paladin if-"
YES FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST BE CONSISTENT
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>>44859322
I didn't say any of that, retard, I you kill innocent people and people who don't deserve it you're evil nomatter which power you used. Stop being stupid.
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>>44859235
That's an interesting concept you have there.
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>>44859338
>The sword itself is not evil
The power then itself is not evil, is just an instrument, unless, again, in your setting it has will and corrupts you, if it's just a tool, like the sword, then I don't see why the paladin can't use it.

And even if it can corrupt you, if the paladin's will is strong enough, as it should be, I don't see, as long as he remains uncorrupted, why he shouldn't be still Good.
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>>44859322
Nice strawmen you have there
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>>44859404
This is all nice and good, but I just don't like the concept of paladins siphoning the energy of demons and turning it against them.
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>Sith use the Force therefore the force is evil
>If a Jedi uses the Force he's evil
Now I get it.
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>>44859404
>The sword itself is not evil
>The power then itself is not evil

THE SWORD IS LITERALLY EVIL
MADE FROM EVIL METAL
MINED FROM MOUNT EVIL
IN THE KINGDOM OF EVILLAND
BY AN EVIL BLACKSMITH
USING AN EVIL ANVIL AND AN EVIL HAMMER
TEMPERED USING AN EVIL FLAME
DOUSED IN EVIL WATER
INSCRIBED WITH EVIL RUNES
EMPOWERED WITH EVIL ENERGIES STRAIGHT FROM THE DIMENSION OF EVIL USING EVIL MAGIC

>>44859449
Sith use the Dark Side. And Jedi who use the Dark Side are considered either untrustworthy mary sues (gray Jedi) or dangerous assholes (dark Jedi).
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>>44859449
>Only Sith deal in absolutes

>said statement is an absolute

>thus the one saying it must be a Sith

>ergo the "Jedi order" are actually Sith, and the people who call themselves "Sith" are actually just a bunch of chucklefucks who dicovered the force and are being cracked down upon by the real Sith

Duh
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>>44859439
Nobody says it should be common, using a sword to fight a tyrant might be ok once, but not always, I didn't go and beheaded the class president when he acted like a dick imposing his views back in highschool.

PCs are unique, even if we don't like it, sometimes are just the ones who can change the flow of the setting, sometimes the are even more special, if the player wants to be a Paladin who uses the same source of power as the evil dudes I don't see why it should be bad, and if he strays, well, he strays and should be treated accordantly.

Pic very much related.
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>>44859577
Do the riders use power of evil? I haven't watched the show.

>Paladin who uses the same source of power as the evil dudes I don't see why it should be bad
I am not saying it should be bad, but the power sources should be different nonetheless. In my setting Paladins are divine champions of the Gods of virtue and Good, given powers by them directly. It's the way I prefer things to work when I run a game.
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>>44859630
>Do the riders use power of evil? I haven't watched the show.
Almost any rider uses the same source of power as the evil dudes because, almost any rider were created by those powers.
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>>44859630
Then again, the meme: Depends of your setting, if in your setting using evil powers turns you evil, yeah, a paladin using evil powers will become evil and stop being a paladin.
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You mean you are a UR PRIEST?
Thats LITERALLY THE CLASS YOU DESCRIBED.
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>>44859737
Also Warlocks
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>>44859507
>Evil

That one image of that guy talking about words and their meanings and you not knowing it.
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>>44859026
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I saw the conversation.

-OP asks a question whose answer depends entirely on the setting.
-Someone posts DOTS.
-Anon gets mad, saying that answer kills any discussion and evokes the slippery slope fallacy saying that /tg/ will be reduced to quests, shitposting, and generals.
-I get mad and say that DOTS is useful to keep in mind because /tg/ has a habit of slipping into canon wars, with LotR and D&D providing most of the ammunition (hence the reference to number of dragon legs, because a number of fa/tg/uys got pissy that the new Hobbit movie had a Smaug with two legs and two wing/claws and *everyone* knows that's a Wyvern and not a Dragon).
-Anon2 quotes the part of my post where I bitch about canon wars and their tendency to push for one true answer for all settings ever, and he calls me delusional.
-I ask what part is delusional, the frequency of canon wars or the opinion that one established truth that's shared between all settings because it's the "right" one is anathema to the idea of fiction being whatever you want.
-Anon3/you accuse me of strawmanning and sidestep the question.

Did I miss anything?
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>>44859929
Youre just confirming yourself to be a shitposter
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>>44859577
>>44859662
>Riders
>any way similar to Paladins

You can make the case for 1 & 2 but that isn't the case for any other Riders

>>44859872
Evil does have a concrete meaning in D&D though
>Evil Metal = Abyssal or Baatorian in origin
>Mount Evil = any of the many mountains of the lower planes
>Evilland = any of the Abyssal realms/Baatorian lairs
>Evil blacksmith = a fiend
>evil hammer and anvil = made of hell-metal or corpses of the damned
>evil fire = fire directly from a lower plane or imprisoned Evil elemental
>evil water = ditto
>evil runes = Black/Dark Speech
>evil energy = unholy energy just like Myrmyxicus uses
>straight from the evil dimension = lower planes
>evil magic = magic taught by fiends
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>>44859577
I always like the fight against his own nature kind of hero, also nobody can deny those guys are paladins of justice
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>>44860170
You keep talking about this meaning in D&D and you keep forgetting those classes that use demonic powers and can be still totally Good and able to multiclass into Paladins and Clerics (some even have feats that improve thoses multiclasses)
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I don't care if I stop being a "Paladin", I fight for Justice my own way, and I don't care how you call me.
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>>44861085
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>>44858621
Not even close to being the same situation. Do better.
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>>44861463
Good day to you too, ma'am
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Technically, paladin is a job like another. Sure, you should be the faithful servant of a good god, and be merciful, and blablabla... But, how many people are frauds. Me, I work IT in my company and my main skill is how to google stuff, and blame my coworkers when their computers have a problem. I guess you can as well impersonate a paladin if you have some kind of special power. Just avoid being seen using some kind of evil looking power, or make sure the witnesses won't live long enough to tell the tale.
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>>44861523
No, you first explain precisely how it's different.
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>>44861878
not him, but a string isn't defined by it's length but by its function.

Is a string still a string if it's built by things needing to be tied together?
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>>44858621

Actually the answer is "which peice of string in particular?"
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>>44862591
And then OP replies "All of them! All pieces of string everywhere!"
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>>44862658
then the answer is the set (0,inf)

Step up your game senpai
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>>44859322
>And then the paladins smite him for being corrupted.
No, they have him take off all the Evil artifacts and check him for Evil without them in the way to mess up the results. Then, if he's not Evil, they let him go back to his crusade while assigning a member of their order to travel with him and make sure he doesn't give in to the corruption. Boom, buddy cop movie.
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>>44858045
No...
Stealing.
Demons.
Just no.
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But what if the power of Good isn't strong enough to kill an Evil you need to kill?
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>>44863456
It is.
Good is always stronger. If you don't understand that, don't try to paladin.
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>>44863481
And yet there already is that giant evil empire that needs to be overthrown. All 'Good' can do is come in at the end and coup de grace the empire, only to make a vacuum where a different evil empire will rise up.
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>>44863901
Such is life.
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I think what OP really means is:
>Can I play a plate wearing greatsword toting badass who uses a combination of black magic and ridiculous willpower to destroy evil?

Which to be fair, is really just asking if you can play a paladin playstyle wise with a different aesthetic and tone.

Then a bunch of autists sperg out and the player leaves dejected, because they wanted to play something like that in a campaign that isn't EVIL ONLY KICKING PUPPIES SIMULATOR.
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>>44863963
pretty accurate, see >>44863344
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>>44860240
And you keep forgetting that not all D&Ds are the same. Evil is an element, just like air and water in some of its settings.
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