Does reading 40k/30k make you sad? I don't know why but the 40k universe makes me incredibly sad when I consider its themes. Particularly the Horus Heresy. I think it might have something to with the fact that it really hits home on the 'What could have been' aspect. The severing of ties between those who were really close gets to me. Ferrus and Fulgrim. Horus and the Emperor. Angron and his fellow slaves. Lorgar and his faith in the Emperor. Hell, these are just major examples.
Does 40k stir up any emotion in you or am I alone in this?
That is the point of Grimdark.
There are no true heroes if there is no unbeatable darkness.
A hero is not the one who wins against evil, a hero is the one that fight even when there is no hope.
That's what makes 40k so epic.
That's the point, it's a cosmic tragedy. A lot of the plot elements are pulled from other tragedies and each factions background hinges on a tragic irony; the Imperium worships an emperor who hated religion, the eldar are the wisest yet the cause of their own destruction, the orks live for war and would lose meaning if they ever won, the tyranids are the galaxies greatest threat yet they are running from something more terrible etc.
Honestly? I didn't until after reading the first 3 HH books. Garviel Loken and the story of the legions fall is a bad time. Really makes you think just how much of a emotional impact it had on the factions involved in the heresy.
That moment when
Torgaddon is killed by Aximand in front of Loken, and the impact it has on both of them. Meanwhile Abaddon is just like 'lol he dead'. What a dick.That got to me the most.
>That is the point of Grimdark.
Isn't the point of Grimdark to be ridiculously "dark" and edgy because that's what its audience thinks is cool? I mean, I knew this guy who would go on and on about WWI and about how brutal it was, but it didn't depress him. He thought it was exciting as fuck, and had major war fantasies.
Of course, through more mature goggles, it's depressing as fuck. Stuff like WH40K reminds me a lot of my grandfather, who fought two pointless wars for a country that dropped him like a hot potato when he came back, only to eventually die from something he picked up during the war. He was old, but it still sucks. That's how I imagine the individual guardsman feels when he returns to his random shit planet.
Who? The fabricated myth used to inspire thousands of Guardsmen so they don't think twice about charging to certain death, or the ancient, immortal who has been killed time after time before?
Because you do know that the 'normal human who stood up to Horus' story is just fanon, right? You know there's nothing in the fluff which actually describes that happening?
>That's how I imagine the individual guardsman feels when he returns to his random shit planet.
No anon, even a blind, paraplegic guardsmen is overjoyed if he comes home and will never suffer PTSD, because he's so happy that he's one of the .001% that make it back. Most die or settle another world, never seeing their families ever again.
>Isn't the point of Grimdark to be ridiculously "dark" and edgy because that's what its audience thinks is cool?
That's grimdark done badly.
If the audience think it's cool, then you are doing it wrong.
Look at Diablo, it's a perfect example.
Diablo 2 is good grimdark.
It's depressing, it's hopeless. It's a game where even a necromancer can become a hero because everyone else is dead or corrupted.
Nobody would think Diablo 2 is cool, dark and edgy. It's not.
But it's awesome in his own way, and that's why people love it.
I'm not saying that 40k isn't full of shit sometimes; that's one of the problem of having so many writers, and expecially one of the problem of GW wanting to be appeal to younger audience.
But the core it's still there.
Gothic, depressing, unsettling. But awesome.
Speaking about perpetuals and Olly.
Alivia Sureka one of the true Perpetuals was revealed to be barren. She still loved kids, though. She adopted a family of her own.
Does the novels say whether Olly's family was his biological family or not. If they are not, then it might imply that true perpetuals like him, the Emperor, and Alivia are sterile.
Of course Alivia is barren, that's how female reproduction works because they have a limited amount of egg cells. Since the Emperor is male, he was probably fertile until he began decomposing in the golden throne.
Speaking of the HH books...
Not interested in reading all of them, because from what I hear a lot of the fluff is just stupid. What I like most when reading the HH books is really getting to find out how a legion/primarch ticks, like really get under their skin and get to know them. Was wondering whether there are books for each legion that really give a good idea of how they were.
So far have read about
>Luna Wolves from Horus Rising (and the next two)
>White scars from Scars
>Blood angels from Fear To Tread
And will probably read A Thousand Sons next, as the clue's kind of in the title. Any recommendations for books about the other legions?
looking at the art of battles and courageous feats, reading the snippets in codex of amazing, stupid or downright silly events is amazing, even if it tells of planets or millions dead.
Reading the books makes me feel a great sense of despair. theres a short story i guess you could call it in the gaunts ghosts series where gaunt is either having fever dreams or just feeling run down and worn out. Its past halfway through the series and it really shows gaunt as a tired, broken version of his former self with others around him almost unable to live without the giant character that was gaunt.
It was tragic, even though 40k is a mans power trip, it really hit me with a feeling of futility, gaunt survived this down period in his career (if it even happened) but it didnt get any better. his career was destined for a footnote in the records and the death of those he loved slowly as his regiment was torn apart through war.
First Heretic and Betrayer for Word Bearers and World Eaters.
Legion for Alpha Legion
Angel Exterminatus for Iron Warriors and well corrupted Emperor's Children
Battle of Calth for Ultramarines
No prob. There are more, those juat came into my mind. Flight of Eisenstein is chronologicaly right after the last one from the first 3, don't remember the title, and it covers Death Guard pretty well. Also, from the list, the Betrayer is cobsidered by many to the best book in the HH series.
Word, the first few 30k books felt so different, so full of hope then inevitably it all starts to slip away, it's worse when you know the outcome.
Seeing all that was lost is heartbreaking especially when you consider how each person or bit of knowledge of item might have made a difference later on.
Take the ultramarines for example, seeing how dogmatic they've become that hey cast out Uriel Ventris for not following the codex when their primarch would have lauded his actions.
personally I like the perpetuals, I fi d it interesting that all of them pretty much loathe the Emperor.
Ollanius sees him as divorced from human desires, Grammaticus sees him as a bloodthirsty warlord and Alivia just hates his arrogance and thinks space marines are an abomination.
No because much as though I enjoy the whole setting of both 30k and 40k, the whole thing is so badly written and absurd that it's impossible to feel anything for it other that interest and amusement. The things it deals with are too big, it's impossible to actually have a humanising element in the whole thing.
And then there's the spess marines. Love them though I do, they have no character motivation other than HONOUR. DUTY. MURDER. KILL. BROTHERLY-TOTALLY-NOT-HOMOEROTICFRIENDSHIP.
The things that really make a characters and worlds believable. Love, loss, compassion despair, conflict and horror are just lost in a boring paste.
Take that story of the Salamanders wiping out that planet where the Eldar where aiding the humans. Wiping out a population of millions becomes a boring footnote, the Salamanders are just big boring warriors fighting and winning.
A better perspective, one that shows the size, power, scale and inhumanity of the imperium would be a story written from the perspective of a family of luckless inhabitants. Imagine them running, hiding from these inhuman adversaries from the sky. Describe the charnel scale of the butchery, the corpses the ash and the knowledge that hope and hiding places are running out.
There is only one way off world, if it exists. Would they find it? who knows.
>Salamanders wiping out the Eldar/Human planet
Do you understand the impact of his moral choices? He was killing the Eldar, until he realized what the Eldar meant to the native humans. At that point, he knew he'd fucked the populace up beyond saving. He ran into a moral issue that he had to act upon.
When reading, and attempting to write, 40k fiction i always remind myself that its the best of a bad bunch.
>Killing PDF by the millions? It HAS to be done
>1k psykers a day? It HAS to be done
The sheer brutality is what i love about the setting - everything's fucked and everyone's just winging it
But it is boring. It's boring because the author is writing from the perspective of a 10ft tall coal black demi-god wearing a tank. There is no way that short of a very, very good writer you could actually get inside the head of Vulkan, without being dull. Not that it matters anyway because all the Primarchs (despite the best efforts of Abnett and co.) are hugely two-dimensional.
The best 40k (and 30k) stories are from the bottom looking up. Not the top looking down. The only way to really 'feel' the size of Imperium is to look up at from a human perspective. The best parts of the Horus Heresy books are never when the Primarchs are smack talking or when the Spess marines are gaying it up. It's the interaction between the Legions and Primarchs with ordinary people like the remembrancers or similar. It helps show the reader the vast scale and inhumanity of the system they are all part of.
>the tyranids are the galaxies greatest threat yet they are running from something more terrible
A single speculative line in one old codex doesn't make this true. All signs point to the tyranids having devoured all the biomass in a previous galaxy and are coming to ours because there's nothing left.
Haven't read that many HH books, but it seems a lot of them follow a legionary for a lot of the time, which enables them to get that "looking up" perspective on the primarchs and lord-commanders of the legions.
Admittedly these legionaries tend to be around the captain level rather than plain footsoldiers, but that's probably so the buggers can actually hear some of the higher-level stuff going on. Your average grunt won't end up on the bridge of the flagship for example so the author would be limited in what they'd realistically see. A captain's kind of a nice inbetween.
There are a few story arcs that were pretty well done and made me feel sad. At the top of my head
>the relationship between Argel Tal and Kharn
made worse by Argel Tal dying completely unexpectedly and Kharn failing to avenge him
>the fall of Angron and the World Eaters as a whole
>like 90% of Gaunts Ghosts
being killed like a bitch and remembered as a psycho traitor
But what gets me the worst is the short descriptions of Imperial soldiers dying heroically, sacrificing themselves so that the Imperium can endure. And many times doing so without anyone remembering them. Abnett and Zou know how to write IG in this regard and that's why I love their books. But pretty much every 40k books has at least one such character and even if it's just a footnote, it leaves a mark on me.
40k piles the grimdark on so hard that it's difficult to get emotionally invested enough to actually feel affected. The fact that the storyline is completely stagnant with no appreciable arc to speak of does not help matters.
30k, however, is tragedy. It's GOOD tragedy, epic in the true and not overused sense of the word; like ancient myths about humanity's hubris. We have so many stories of ruin and sorrow on a mythic scale, and 30k embraces that scale to deliver that kind of story.
This is part of why I've found the Horus Heresy book series so very satisfying to read, even if not every novel holds up. It's a piece of art that does a good job of capturing the downfall of humanity as a result of striving too hard to meet ideals.
>And many times doing so without anyone remembering them
The Emperor always remembers
Regarding the Thousand Sons, yes, all is dust. That is their curse. They studied and built and sought to become transcendent. They thought they could redefine reality. They stood at the cusp of a breakthrough, only to discover the game was rigged and the gods they denied the existence of would have the last laugh.
That's why I firmly believe that the Emperor does indeed protect. That the ending to Imperial Glory is the truth, not some hallucinations. And that everything else is just Chaos lies. Otherwise stuff like
>Nineteenth platoon were about five hundred meters from Old Hive's north entrance when they saw the gates close.
>Skerral stopped in his tracks, and pulled the men up. Half his unit were dead. He ejected a cell from his lasrifle and slammed in a new one.
>"Come on," he said, turning back to face down the slope at the waves of assault sweeping in. "Let's see how many we can kill."
>The remnants of nineteenth lasted seventeen minutes from the time the gates closed. They accounted for one hundred and eighty-nine enemy casualties. No one witnessed their heroism.
would be all just pointless sacrifices in the grand scheme of 40k.
You're trying to understand. I told you your brother had been killed.
Yet, here he stands in the very shadow of the man you came here to destroy.
You came here to avenge his death. You came here to save mankind. You see now, you cannot do both.
Tell me now. Is there a man among you here?
Is there no one who will stand up and try to fight?
Tell me Man, is there not one in all your ranks? Is there not one who values courage over life?
They looked to me once. Now they turn to you. Do you understand now?
Do you see that the truth is they don't want to change this?
They don't want a hero. They just want a martyr, a statue to raise.
I've given everything I can. There are no heroes left in man.
So it begins!
No matter which one of us lives, the ground we're standing on will crack and blow away.
And you will fight. But when you fight, you'll fight alone. And in the end you'll see there was no other way.
> the stand: the protomen: act I
This is the song I imagine playing every time I hear about the Horus Heresy.
Don't forget about Blizz's response to those desaturated "Diablo 2 style" screenshot edits of D3. People remembered it too much for being cool/edgy in the wrong way.
My thoughts are that Grimdark works best when there is that faint light of hope and peace in an otherwise crapsack reality. Obviously the joke portions of Diablo should be considered as such, but there's signs of "life wasn't so bad before one of the prime evils walked through here." The same goes for 40k, and some of the worlds in Eisenhorn. Life CAN be good, if you're on the right planet with the right atmosphere and far enough away from any frontlines, but even then that doesn't prevent bad shit from forming in your now over-comfortable ruling class.
Look, before you can even attempt to write about the primarchs you would have to do your research a bit. Read the existing stories, find out who they were based on and so on. BL writers put in no such effort.
It was the setting, mostly.
D2 operated at a higher power level, and had the whole globe-trotting feel. In D1 you were stuck in that miserable little town until you went into the basement and killed all the daemons.
also fuck D3, seriously
I enjoyed the digital Plagues of Orath trilogy.
I'm 99% sure the ecclesiarchy priest in Armour of Faith is the Emperor.
Especially because he disappears into thin air at the end after giving the Chaplain the pep talk he needs to save the planet. He even tells the Chaplain that what was required was pure faith to defeat the daemons, but not necessarily pure faith in the Emperor, pure faith in one's self would suffice.
Aha i sometimes think about how different things could have been if the horus heresy hadn't happened, or someone other than fulgrim had done diplomacy with the Eldar, how much brighter the setting could have been, and it does kinda make me sad
Aha i sometimes think about how different things could have been if the horus heresy hadn't happened, or someone had ended the series short before it turned into endless padding of shit fluff, how much brighter the setting could have been, and it does kinda make me sad
It's book 2 of the Beast Arises series and involves the impact of an enormous ork Waagh! making its way across segmentum solar, with perspectives from hive worlds, forge worlds, agri worlds, and plenty more. As well as what the High Lords of Terra and astartes are doing about it.
Sometimes I think about how different things could have been if the Horus Heresy had not happened and Humanity had succeeded in purging all disgusting xenos from the universe under the guidance of the Immortal Emperor.
I won't spoil too much, other then to say that the first two books of the series give me detail on the High Lords of Terra (circa M32) than all of prior 40k-lore combined, and that Drakan Vangorich is the main viewpoint character.
Brothers of the Snake
has a single Iron Snake slaughtering DEldar with no fucks given
has a single Blood Gorgon slaughtering DEldar then dragging one along as a prisoner
has Mordians fighting against DEldar in some hive city
There is probably more
>Does 40k stir up any emotion in you or am I alone in this?
I only feel this in a meta-way. When I got into Fall From Heaven, the Civ Mod, it struck me that THIS is what 40k lore could have been if it was centralized under one author who was a competent worldbuilder.
Seeing what exists now makes me sad, very much because it could have been so much better written.
In the short story in Mark of calth he hears his baby son's crying and that was in the Viking era when he would have been alive for 10k years I think
Of course later on he might have become sterile but you get the feeling he heals and regenerates
I don't like how he made that alcoholic who doc got gaunt to spare go back to big bad - I mean gaunt said he would kill the fucker if he drank again and yet Abnett is saying he's gone back to his old ways
>‘Lupercal!’ Loken yelled, coming to the Warmaster’s right side, and swinging his sword double-handed. Torgaddon covered the left, striking down a trio of gleves, then using a lance taken from one of them to smite the pack that followed. Interex soldiers, some screaming, were forced back down the steps, or toppled over the stone railing of the street to plunge onto the tier beneath.
>Of all the battles Loken had fought at his commander’s side, that was the fiercest, the saddest, the most vicious. Teeth bared in the firelight, swinging his blade at the foe on all sides, Horus seemed more noble than Loken had ever known. He would remember that moment, years later, when fate had played its cruel trick and sense had turned upside down. He would remember Horus, Warmaster, in that narrow firelit street, defining the honour and unyielding courage of the Imperium of Man.
>There should have been frescoes painted, poems written, symphonies composed, all to celebrate that instant when Horus made his most absolute statement of devotion to the Throne.
>And to his father.
>There would be none. The hateful future swallowed up such possibilities, swallowed the memories too, until the very fact of that nobility became impossible to believe.
>The enemy warriors, and they were enemy warriors now, choked the street, driving the Warmaster and his few remaining bodyguards into a tight ring. A last stand. It was oddly as he had imagined it, that night in the garden, making his oath. Some great, last stand against an unknown foe, fighting at Horus’s side.
>He was covered in blood, his suit gouged and dented in a hundred places. He did not falter. Through the smoke above, Loken glimpsed a moon, a small moon glowing in the corner of the alien sky.
>Appropriately, it was reflected in the glimmering mirror of ocean out in the bay.
>‘Lupercal!’ screamed Loken.
i wish nu-males would stop sexualizing masculinity and male-bonding and implying you have to be homosexual to be masculine, that's kind of the opposite of what homosexuals usually are - feminine
going by this standard virtually all professional armies or men who've gone through combat together are homo-erotic
No. To me the setting is hyperbolic black humor with a tiny few nuggets of feels. Hell, Rick Priestly described the original fluff of the Horus Heresy as a parody of Paradise Lost. I think a lot of people are also not aware of 40k's 2000AD roots which was very heavy on the irony and gallow humour.
But what really is important is that 40k looks badass and dark. Whatever you personally get out of it doesn't invalidate what other people get out of it because it's a setting made to entertain.
I was getting through the HH series at a pretty good pace until I got to Legion. Still haven't finished it.
Though to be honest, I only started reading the HH series because I hate a ton of the plot elements in it, and reading it made me feel justified in hating them, but thanks to Legion, I never really got to the parts I wanted to hate.
Homosexuals acting feminine is just an alternate lifestyle thing and a way to meet other homosexuals. There are plenty of homos that don't act like the stereotype and some of them are manly as fuck.
stereotypes generally tend to be true, and from a anecdotal experience every single homosexual i have met has been feminine, submissive and woman-ly
there are a few tops that are masculine - because they view the bottoms/versatiles they fuck as women, yes
I seem to recall that there were a bunch of joke moments in Diablo like the monsters stealing the tavern sign because they thought that owning an image of the sun would give them awesome powers, a bunch of silly references, the cow king level and some straight up silly looking player skills.
Whatever makes Diablo grimdark is really in the presentation.
Better, but if it's current GW still, then you'd still have an HH being rung and drawn out for every dime it's worth and the inevitable plummet of quality and increase of idiotic ideas that would result.
Nope, going by the novel Space Marine by Ian Watson. Liked the part where they chase each other around while naked the best.
No, really, read the book and meditate on it or whatever.
Also, hetero, you curious dawg.
That's the same thing as saying that because you got a black friend and because of that you understand all black people across the planet.
How do you know that all people you meet are straight? They could just not make a big deal about who they like to fuck just like how you might not make a huge deal about what food you like to eat.
So where is this plummet in quality? Because Meduson was awesome, Wolf King was awesome, Legacies of Betrayal was awesome, Pharos was awesome, Deathfire was Nick Kyme so it's always going to suck regardless.
If I had to take a guess, by plummet in quality they probably refer to the presence of retarded ideas (take for example, the Imperium Secgundus). And the longer the series goes on, the longer those ideas will stick around, and the more likely even more unfavorable ideas will occur.
I prefer Imperium Secundus and the idea of every chapter having some secrets. Not to mention it's a better answer to, "What were the Ultramarines doing for the entirety of the Heresy?" Other than "Nothing."
castellan vauban in storm of iron was a bad motherfucker
charges honsou and manages to cut his arm off at the elbow before getting a sword through the chest
he's actually one of my favorite because he's not just some shithead who sits at a desk going "send in the next wave", he led from the front like a badass
hawke and leonid were also fucking sweet in that
I really don't think that every chapter needs a shameful secret. Like Space Wolves know that Prospero was a fuckup and that they were had by Horus, but there is no reason for them to hide it.
Ultramarines lords over half the Space Marines in the Imperium with half of the successor chapters being founded from them and their primarch is technically not dead yet. So if Rowboat Girlyman ever returns he might just decide to take over all of the Imperium.
The Ultramarines dark secret is that they are too good to be true.
>lords over half the Space Marines in the Imperium with half of the successor chapters
This isn't a thing and you fucking know it. The whole point of the Dark Angels is they're the only chapter with direct control of their successors. Other chapters remain autonomous.
Grimdark has a number of roles or appeals for people. Some enjoy the voyeuristic appeal of witnessing a world a thousand times worse and more sorrowful than one's own contemporary times - the same way they postulate an appeal of the Coliseum was to let a pleb see some poor sod worse off than he or she. Some whose lives are more comfortable and relaxing existence like the fantasy of grimdark for the thrill of escapism from the mundane and the ho-hum boring.
I tend to like more classical tragedy to grimdark for the sake of grimdark.
He was always meant to be human. It's what made his death even more tragic than Sanguiness. A normal human would throw himself in between two Gods to protect the one he loves.
Then faggots like you thought "hey guize Terminators are kewl" then a bigger faggot said "hey guize battle barge warp spawn make his a kewl Custodian".
In fairness, of all the games companies I supported with my allowance money in junior high, and that was thirty fucking years ago, GW is the only one left. Their corporate structure has to be doing something right.
TSR has been bought out. FASA is gone, and the Battletech IP has changed hands more than the nympho who showed up to prom. Steve Jackson Games is fragmented beyond recall.
So as much as I hate those shekel-grabbing bitches from Nottingham and wish they still had some of their original staff still at the helm, I have to respect them for still being in business.
>'what could have been' aspect
Brother, I feel this shit every day. I don't need a game to push it
Thanks for making me remember you ass.
This is why I'm not a chaos fag, fuck them to hell.
>if Rowboat Girlyman ever returns he might just decide to take over all of the Imperium
Robute's entire post-heresy purpose, the entire reason for making the chapters and the codex the standard was to decentralize the legions and keep one man from holding too much power. If he came back, not too much would change organizationally. That's the beauty of the whole ultramarine successor thing. They all roughly follow the codex.
See, if any OTHER primarch showed up, things might go awry as they try and fix shit they don't understand. But Guilliman? No worries.
So we have lore that makes human souls either dissolving into the warp or devoured by daemons the general rule.
There is a one time event on single planet that mysteriously happened and then never happened again. Lets discard all established fluff just because of it!
Except it is.
The ghost thing might be something connected to the planet or the people on the planet. I mean the Eldar psykers have been known to make ghostly constructs to fight for them. Was it possible that the people of that world desire to saved created the warp phenomenon that had ghostly figures pop up? Yes, it's more likely that the people's imagination and desire to be saved imprinted into warp and spawned the ghosts.
This would explain why it just happened on one planet and would fit into the lore better.
MFW all this heretics
I said I am not taking my personal interpretation as the true canon.
Both of us have headcanon of what caused the event. Mine fits into the lore better. Yours doesn't, It's simple as that. I guess that makes me more correct by default.
>I am not taking my personal interpretation as the true canon.
>The fluff is clear on that matter. Human souls cannot maintain their egos and consciousness in the Warp.
>when it isn't
Are you an idiot? That's the lore itself.
Unless you have clear lore explanation on why these ghostly figured appeared. A line that says these guys were human souls that somehow survived the dissolution of the Warp, then you have no case.
Nope, it's a statement from the Eldar codexes
It explains that human souls are too weak to maintain their egos and conscious in the warp while the Eldar are strong enough to endure there which makes them prey for daemons and Slaanesh.
Humans souls dissolves into the greater warp, Eldar souls linger.
Nope, that always have been the lore.
And there is no evidence to the contrary unless you point me where does it say that these ghosts are souls of humans that survived destruction in the warp rather than Warp constructs created by the minds of frightened peasants.
I am not talking about human psykers. I am talking about normal humans whose souls are said to be dim candles.
Oh yeah, human souls just disolves into Warp mush. If any old heroes manifest they are most likely a manifestation of peoples ideas and emotions rather than the actual individual.
Like I said, in the face of established fluff you have no case.
One off mysterious event with no explanation for it does not trump established fluff.
Now if you want to win this argument start digging for proofs.
>except when it isn't
Can you point me to the exact quote saying those ghostly heroes are in fact just congealed lumps of warp emotion instead of actual ghosts? Otherwise you have no argument.
No, you have no argument.
We have established fluff from the Eldar codexes that tell us the fate of human souls. Instead of interpreting the event in accordance of what we know happens to human souls in the Warp, You put forth a claim these ghosts are individual spirits of dead humans that lorebreakingly survived the dissolution of the Warp.
Please provide evidence for your claim.
>Does reading 40k/30k make you sad?
Yes, it makes you sad individual because you're spending time reading drivel written by shoddy mercenary writers of the calibre that write forgotten realms and starwars EU novels, when there's endless better uses of your time.
Work on your painting skills, make more terrain, collect older edition rulebooks for fun, read a book that wasn't made purely to try to cash in on people who are dumb enough to buy glue and hobby tools at 500% markup just because it says GW on them.
If you want to dork out, read Milton's Paradise Lost that the entire Horus Heresy mythos was based on/parodying.
Read the old 2000AD comics that inspired rogue trader and the early imperium. Read historical novels and get inspiration for scenarios to play or characters for your army.
But please, don't just sit there shoveling black library shit onto your brain just so you can get into slapfights with other nerds about who has the strongest primarch daddy.
>We have established fluff
>except contradictory fluff has been released since
and previously, if we're going there.
Fun fact: outside of that one quote in the eldar codex, human souls have always been fair game. It's why Jaq Draco survived his death.
So, can you provide some actual evidence that supports your not-so-established statment?
Nope, there is no fluff contradicting that fluff. It's lore that has been repeated across the editions
So I again I repeat please provide some clear evidence for your claim that without a doubt would support your case, You can't, can you?
>there is no fluff contradicting that fluff
I just gave you some, bro. A human bean who, after their supposed death, lingered as a ghost despite the fact that you say it is not possible.
Now if you want some more? I can do that. The Legion of the Damned are an entire army of human souls who miraculously survived their contact with the warp and appear as ghosts in times of need.
There's also the aformentioned ghostly heroes of the imperium showing up.
Now please provide some support to your unsubstantiated claims that no human soul can ever linger beyond death. Because it's quite clear to me that the Eldar were blowing their own farts on this one.
>I just gave you some, bro. A human bean who, after their supposed death, lingered as a ghost despite the fact that you say it is not possible.
If you mean Jaq, then he is a psyker. Like the Eldar they survive after death while regular humand don't.
> The Legion of the Damned are an entire army of human souls who miraculously survived their contact with the warp and appear as ghosts in times of need.
You haven't read the Legion of the Damned lore have you? It was a Nurglite disaese that transmuted them to the state they are in now. They are pretty much alive but incorporeal.
I am going to post their lore in a moment.
>There's also the aformentioned ghostly heroes of the imperium showing up.
Does not proof your case.
You have constantly failed to provide anything.
How is that any weirder than all of the contradictory fluff being wrong? I mean, someone is wrong, so why is it just impossible that it's random eldar guy? I mean, the 40K universe is a team effort. A lot of people are adding stuff to the mix, some of it is literally shit, why latch on to one specific snippet written by one person and say "Nuh-uh, this is the only one that counts!"?
Eldar underestimating humans is perfectly in line with the canon.
>Human souls cannot maintain their egos and consciousness in the Warp.
>yes they can
>n-no that doesn't count
It's not weird, and quite normal for the fluff to contradict itself. This anon is just trying to strictly codify everything about the warp, which is honestly quite stupid.
No, Eldar souls doesn't disolve into Warp mush because they are basically all psychers to some degree, even Dark Eldars. It's also why they walk around with soul stones so Slaanesh doesn't get to torment their woul for eternity. Being a psycher back before the Warp went nuts meant that you could reincarnate without problems because your soul didn't disolve, so it was like having eternal life. Now that Chaos rules the Warp you're facing eternal hell instead. Being turned into Warp mush is a small mercy.
Indeed, you are an idiot.
When I said human souls, I meant ordinary human souls that are too weak to survive in the Warp. Psykers and Eldar souls are strong enough to survive which is why they are at risk of being eaten by daemons after death.
Posting Legion of the Damned lore.
>When I said human souls, I meant human souls except the ones that would turn my argument on its head
For all we know, those ghosts were all psykers, bro. It is entirely possible now that you've admitted human ghosts can exist.
and I should mention, more than a thousand psykers are given to the Emperor's embrace every day.
Those guys are all technically imperial martyrs and heroes who would totally be down for fucking up the powers of chaos as badass spirits.
Read the "Golden Throne Hungers" in the main rulebook timeline section.
The Emperor is greedily devouring their souls and his hunger increases each year. The Blackships are struggling to keep him fed.
He needed more psychers because he is fading faster than before and the Golden Throne is slowly breaking down because the AdMech doesn't understand how it works and has to even ask the Dark Eldar for help.
Possibly he's fading faster than before because he has to keep injecting spirit juice into individuals and puke up ghostly saviors everywhere to stop chaos invasions. Or possibly he's fading because someone forgot to hit powersave.
I'm just happy we've established that yes, humans can have their ghosts come back to save them from evil despite what the eldar think
>I'm just happy we've established that yes, humans can have their ghosts come back to save them from evil despite what the eldar think
You did not.
Ordinary Human souls dissolve. Psykers are devoured.
You better think up a better explanation.
He is fading faster because the Golden Throne has become more taxing over the millennias, he has to fend off Chaos that has grown a lot stronger and his dead body hasn't been getting any better over the years.
One of the main fundaments of the Emperor in 40k is hat he is a dead body and possibly just a temporary solution for humanity. The devs were toying with the ideas in the early days that the Emperor doesn't even actually do anything and people just feed him souls for nothing.
Read the series and find out. It's one of the more enjoyable sets of books in the black library.
>He is fading faster because
That's the thing, there's no one defined "because" to this. It could be literally anything.
It seems that you haven't read the book. Draco died inside the Webway without any predators or daemons there to devour him. Should he wander in a bad direction he is probably doomed.
He also technically became one with the webway.
>without any predators or daemons there
Webway's full that stuff, actually. Even eldar dying in the webway have to worry about slaanesh.
>Webway's full that stuff, actually.
Only in spars that are breached by daemons. Clearly, he wasn't in on such spars.
He is a human psyker so his soul isn't going to be automatically drawn to Slaanesh to be devoured. A daemon has to find it and eat it. Daemons cannot do that if his soul is in Webway.
I would say it's worth reading if you have any interest in the early 40k material that came to shape the setting. Squats and Ordo Hydra doesn't seem to be mentioned at all these days.
It makes me sad because that's where I think humanity is headed. Only without gods and aliens. We're gonna spread out and oppress the shit out of each other until we finally go extinct.
It's because the third book is clearly the author being in a rush to finish the story so that he can start writing the book he actually cares about. It just throws out ideas all over the place halfway through and doesn't resolve anything to be as open ended as possible.
I think he is just being a dick because he can't make a solid argument about why anyone should accept his ideas. The afterlife in 40k is either a nightmare or oblivion for most humans.
Anyone that becomes some kind of good guy ghost is most likely some kind of Warp being that is similar to a daemon and is sustained by peoples collective idea of this figure.
I think you're talking about me. And I'm being a dick because one guy's trying to claim there's coherent and consistent rules about how the warp and afterlife work.
The mere existence of Inquisition War disproves that.
>listening to Eldar and Chaos propaganda
All retconnned to just in universe myths
Legion of the Damned. The ending to Imperial Glory. Saint Sabbat. And probably more, I can't remember more examples.
>No, there is established fluff
It's "established" in one passage, and you've been adding several asterisks to that supposedly established fact in this very thread to cover your ass.
>All retconnned to just in universe myths
Nope, they are not.
The Legion of the Damned books in BL and Index Chaotica : Nurgle's Garden confirms what is written in those pages.
>Legion of the Damned.
They are still living but affected by a Nurglite plague.
>The ending to Imperial Glory
Hallucination most likely.
I amnot familiar with his/her fluff.
Bullshit, it's lore that always been true in the setting and have been carried over across the editions.
You have not even given a single piece of evidence against it. Each time you cite something it's either wrong or you just being dishonest about it.
>Seldom has the manse itself been breached successfully and have the intruders escaped with their lives. One incursion is said to have involved a squad of Fire Hawks Space Marines, a Chapter long since declared lost in the mortal realm. While Nurgle was preoccupied drowning a Lord of Change in his cauldron, the Space Marines arrived engulfed in an inferno of flame and bolter fire to reclaim their fallen captain, whom Nurgle’s minions had once overtaken all-too easily from Khorne’s Wrathgate. The Lord of Decay has his suspicions about the source of this event, laying blame at the feet of the Blood God for the foul deed, for while the Fire Hawks brought their inferno, several blood relics and skull-seeds also vanished from the garden.
>Ten Space Marines of the Fire Hawks Chapter slip through the ethereal void and enter the realms of Nurgle to free Captain Tirek, who is held captive within Nurgle’s manse. The Fire Hawks are enveloped in a spiritual fire, a cleansing inferno of their wrath made manifest. They fight their way through the thick, ever changing gloom and assault his dwelling, burning back the drips of ichor and clouds of spores. Fierce fighting rages throughout his oubliette, their weapons furiously dealing with diseased creatures. Their cleansing flame purges disease from the very air around them. The Fire Hawks’ incandescent attack results in the deaths of hundreds of the Nurgle’s subordinates. Having lost only two battle brothers in the melee, the Fire Hawks finally leave with Tirek. However, little do they realise that Nurgle’s Rot has taken root beneath their captain’s power armour, and the bubbling plague is spreading throughout his body. The Fire Hawks venture back out into the Immaterium, their captain slowly succumbing to disease, becoming a vector for the horrific Red Plague.
-Index Chaotica : Garden of Nurgle
Here is the lore of the Fire Hawks who would later become the Legion of the Damned.
Inqusition Wars is an old and dated book.
The only human Warp ghost is a soul trapped in the Webway that no one can see or has even manifested in any corporeal form. They do try to bring back another soul that ended up in the Webway and put it in a living person, but the soul has become insane and has gaps in its memory like it has been going through entropy. The individual reverts to a very basic behavior and doesn't understand who it is.
This is after using Webway time and room fuckery of trying to save a non psycher soul.
Shit just turns into Warp mush and don't stay coherent. Even a miracle, as the book calls it, can't undo the full effect of the entropy of the disembodied human soul.
>still arguing with Carnac
Discarding "established fluff" in favour of "one time events" is exactly the sort of thing he does himself.
Jesus fuck there's just you 2 guys in this thread having the same offtopic argument with the occasional bystander like me butting in, get a fucking room already, who are you trying to impress?
>This particular piece of make-belief is the truth.
>No, THIS particular piece of make-belief is the truth.
Not only is it pointless it's freaking warhammer 40k, by having spent this much time thinking about it you've already lost. Go paint some space marines or read a vintage Codex, relax a little.
>Big E will never be real
>You will never die for him
I think I just got caught up in it because I just now rememberd why Inqusition Wars was so bad. It's like you remember all the stupid things you did when you got really drunk or something. Reading the third book was very much a huge waste of time, I regret doing so and remembering it so vividly.
It's time I could have wasted on porn instead.
This fluff thread is one of the worst ones I have been in for a long time, but it does have some retarded posts that is just not copypasta. So I guess we did create a lot of original content for once and it was all worth it.
Since we are doing good portrait of guys during the HH. What are good sources/novels/short stories that do justice to xeno races? CE Eldar, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids?
>Dan Abnett not mediocre
He barely created anything original himself until 2009, when his first original work was picked up by a publisher. It is described as, and I quote: "Historical adventure occult comedy" and it's average score from reviews is something like a 3-3.5 out of five.
If reading is sex for the mind, Dan Abnett is an uninspired handjob that only ever manages to make you cum when he's disguised as someone else.
No it's not. DMing someone else's setting is the norm, since we tend to play ready-bought games with settings, and it doesn't imply that you're too shit to make your own.
Pretty much only writing novels set in other people's settings on the other hand, implies that you can't get your own following so you have to whore yourself out and piggyback on a pre-existing fan base.
What do you care what other people do? All of the activities you mentioned are equally pointless in the grand scheme of things so I'm not sure on what basis you would have other people do them.
He's spent months fighting a grueling war in which his enemies are demigods allied with daemons, and now he's found himself in the closest thing to Hell he's ever known. He probably wasn't even supposed to get teleported up to the arch-traitor's battle barge in the first place, and just ended up in the wrong place at the worst possible time.
Somehow he's survived horrors beyond comprehension to make his way to the very bridge of Horus' flagship. He saw a veritable angel call upon Horus to answer for his crimes, and he saw that angel die as messily as any guardsman. His Emperor - who he fervently believes is a god incarnate, even if he's not supposed to - lies mortally wounded, and Horus, perhaps, has taken a moment to gloat before he strikes the killing blow.
His armor is slightly more effective than tissue paper, his weapon is slightly more powerful than a flashlight, and Horus' power claw is bigger than his entire body. He stands before a being infused by the dark gods' with incalculable power, that can and will obliterate his soul with no more effort than it would take him to swat a gnat. Nothing he can do could possibly make a difference.
He could run. He could turn his weapon on himself. He could give in to the insidious whispers that echo from the ship's corridors into his mind.
Ollanius Pius does the duty his Emperor requires of him. He dies standing and holds the fucking line.
I used to get that kind of sickish awkward nervous feeling you get when I'd see something like this happening because of where society is going. The kind where you just wish you could reverse it all. Now I've accepted where we're going. At least 40k isn't drastically changing itself because of crybabys and millennials now.
If they for example writes a shitty novel tied in to a famous movie character or that's basically poorly written military porn, absolutely.
The difference is that 40k is a very specific thing that comes with it's own fan base and gets marketed through more channels than just competing in the best seller list at a bookstore.
There's infinite historical adventure novels, so you have more competition than if you're one of the guys churning out books specifically for people who rates books based on how many space marines are in them.
It's not the same.
If you put 40K! and a space marine on the cover 40k fans will buy it, same as Star Wars fans will buy all kinds of drivel as long as it's a tie-in with their favourite franchise.
If you put "takes place in the real world!" on the cover, you're not guaranteed any sales.
Hard to say though what would be more terrible. The Great Devourer, a seemingly unstoppable tide of horror and death that consumes whole galaxies, or said Great Devourer being just a small footnote compared to what still lurks outside the galaxy.
Ah yes one of the dumbest stories in 40k
>The emperor is going to teleport onto Horus' ship to kill him
>Takes two of his sons, his own elite guards, the elite guards of his sons
>And a handful of guardsmen for shits and giggles
>The emperor is about to die by Horus' hand
>A random guardsman dying allows him to decide to kill Horus
If anyone should die it should be Constantin Valdor, a hero of the crusade, and perhaps the greatest warrior among humanity barring the emperor and possibly the primarchs. The emperor personally knows him, has fought alongside him in countless battles, and understands that if anyone could hold out against Horus it would probably be him. When Horus flays him alive with just a glance it not only devastates the emperor, giving him the drive to kill Horus, it illustrates that he has to as nobody else can. Valdor was effortlessly kill by Horus and Sanguinius earlier fell to Horus without too much struggle. Truly the Emperor has to be the one to kill Horus.
Also the Horus Heresy should be kind of like the age of heroes, where everyone who could have made a difference is dead or effectively dead. Valdor is currently a loose end in that he is practically a primarch himself but we never learn his fate.
The 2nd to 3rd edition transition seems to be where they went full GrimDerp. Between every Grey Knight bullet being consecrated with a soul, Primarch fights lasting for days... etc. it just became difficult to read.
I'm so sorry, anons...
The one with the curly hair? Its Medea Betancore I believe, but she's equally qt
and straddles one of Eisenhorns friends while wearing only a T-shirt after laying down beats on him in book 2
>Sanguinius earlier fell to Horus without too much struggle
"Reeee" and so forth. I'll have you know, sir, that some sources suggest Horus couldn't beat Sanguinius in a straight fight. Good day to you!
Originally, Ollanius Pius was just a guy on a banner who according to legend took a hit from Horus that was meant for the Emperor. This was at a time when the final battle took place on Earth's surface and Horus wasn't even a Primarch (since you had to be dead to be one). Although even then, the Emperor was described as teleporting into Horus's command bunker with a company of Custodes and Imperial Fists, so one would imagine that the only Guardsmen around would be traitor ones.
When they actually wrote out the duel properly later, after retconning the Primarchs into the Emperor's genetically engineered super-sons rather than dead Marine heroes, they moved it to Horus's ship and had him kill a Terminator. Though unlike (the legend of) Pius, the Terminator didn't stand in front of Emps, he actually charged Horus. His death was also the first instance of the "Emperor gets motivated" bit - Pius's (supposed) death had no such effect, he just (supposedly) died.
The Beast was post-Heresy, and led a Waaagh! that almost toppled the Imperium in M32. He was first mentioned in the 6th edition rulebook:
>THE BEAST ARISES
>The Orks rampage across the Imperium on a massive scale. The number of attacks grow until it becomes the greatest greenskin invasion that the galaxy has ever known, eclipsing even the one defeated by Horus upon the world of Ullanor, which earned him the title of Warmaster. Nothing is safe from the Orks’ primal desire to conquer the galaxy, and their widespread advances are only halted when the Imperium resorts to the most extreme of measures, at great cost to the Adeptus Astartes.
>Some of the darkest moments in the history of the Imperium have been the result of massive Ork Waaaghs! The Warboss known only as the Beast nearly took over the galaxy, and it can only be a matter of time before another apocalyptic greenskin rising takes place.
And since then, the same fluff was repeated in 7th edition but otherwise nothing was done with it (I don't think the Beast was even mentioned in the 7e Ork codex) until the new BL series named after the timeline entry.
The Ork who fought the Emperor is much, much older, dating back to Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. However, like the Beast, there was only ever a tiny amount of fluff available - in this case, literally just one sentence about Horus hacking off its arm as it "struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him" - until BL expanded on it, in the short story The Wolf of Ash and Fire which made the warlord an eight-armed Cybork twice the Emperor's size.