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Big Salty Tiers Edition.

Warmachine/Hordes Books, No Quarter, & IKRPG
>textuploader <dot> com / 5f980
PP Youtube (gameplay tutorials, tournament coverage, and announcements)
>https://www.youtube.com/user/PrivateerPressPrime
List building at
>https://www.forwardkommander.com
>http://schlaf.github.io/whac_online/whac.html
Latest Errata
>http://privateerpress.com/files/WM%20MKII%20Rules%20Errata%20Aug%202015.pdf
Steamroller Rules
>http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/steamroller-tournaments
The Giant List of Podcasts and Blogs
>http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?76379-Warmachine-Hordes-related-blogs-websites-and-forums
Table of contents for all NQ issues
>http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?4313-Table-Of-Contents-For-All-No-Quarter-Issu
Your Dudes
>http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-2-3-2014
Abridged Lore
>gargantuans abridged:http://pastebin.com/XPKMKYUc
>hordes abridged:http://pastebin.com/6D1fwSgv

Lexicanum Iron Kingdoms Lore wiki:
>http://warmachine.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page
>>
So uhhh.

Dead Game
Dead Thread.
>>
So how do I Cyriss? I like the Vectors, I've read up on strategy and such, but they still seem a bit odd to me. Any suggestions?

As an aside, I'm thinking full-on Borg for their color scheme - but then again that might seem a bit Cryxian, what with them hoarding all the black and green.
>>
>>44849935
Just play them.

You only git gud by playing
>>
>>44850254
Know your playstyle yet? Know how to play the base game?
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>>44850320
>>44849935
Meant to ask you.
>>
>>44850320
Played a few games with a friend's Cygnar force, so I have a very basic understanding - lots to learn still, but I'm getting there.

Found a great deal on a force with Syntherion, so I'll be starting with him, and he seems like a caster who wants a fair amount of vectors. However, I'll need a fairly high model count to make the best use of Synergy, so I'm still trying to put together a decent 35 and 50 point list - trying to find that balance, so to speak.
>>
I haven't played since last summer. Anything new happen? Last thing I know about is the errata.
>>
>>44850823
Nothing major.

Some dickweed posted all of the Steamroller Packet online and ruined the rest of the updates for everyone.

But amongst the leaks were changes to placeable terrain hitting Runes of War the hardest. Nothing majorly radical aside from that. It appears they are not going to flex the scenario muscle too much even with the big Denny and Haley nerfs.

Anything else is just rumors and/or partial testing info that may not be the same come eratta time.

Battle Driven has the best summary on the whole thing...even if its just because they are the most triggered by any changes. One of the hosts even sounds like they are Rage stuttering. Top. Keks./spoiler]

Aside from that.... Resculpts. Resculpts everywhere!!
>>
What's wrong with Warmachine tactics? I've been thinking about trying to real game because I kinda like tactics
>>
>>44850769
Synth is a very flexible caster in terms of army list, he loves all the jacks. First though, real talk.

Synergy is a great spell that will lose you games. That perfect synergy chain is usually a trap, so be wary of how you use the spell, and how you build for it. A 2-3 point chain is often enough to get done what you needed done, that 6-7 chain usually means you gave up too much other stuff to do it.

Prime Axiom is great with synth, but not required. People like to say it's an alway include with him, and it does a,aging things, but he's terrible at protecting it.

In general though, Synth likes to shoot and McKee, and depends on making a smaller number of more quality attacks.

We can talk more specifics if you let me know what you want out of him.
>>
Any spoilers or news on the next IKRPG book?
>>
>>44848371
Errata is supposed to happen this week. Brace yourselves for mountains of salt.
>>
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>>44852360
Right before a major con too.

I wonder if the Battle Driven guy's heads are gonna asplode.
>>
>>44851020
What episode?
>>
>>44852674
Latest one. I heard it on my trip back from Vegas.
>>
>>44852620
Well yeah, errata always happens this time of year. LVO players should be prepared
>>
>>44852620
>>44851020
>the Battle Driven guy's

Literally who?
>>
>>44853155
Dunno their actual names. On the Muse on Minis podcast Network.

I only listen to hear them Rage at this point in time.
>>
>>44849757
Shhh, shhh, Anon, this game isn't your brain and this thread isn't your penis.
>>
>>44851636
Tactics has gotten legitimately better in the past 6 months and it's also cheaper now. So's the DLC.

Most who dislike it seem to do so squarely on the basis it functions a bit different from the tabletop and isn't a carbon copy. That or they haven't tried it since it was a poorly optimized lag pit.
>>
>>44851020
I'm confused. The packet was leaked, but so what? My PG held a tester event. Theres only one non-nerio. Plus its not like people cant just look it up
>>
Discussion points:

Who's the most fun caster for your faction. Not most competitive but most fun.

What caster would you most like to be friends with?
>>
>>44854517
Pp had the PGs agree not to go posting it to the internet for some reason you'd have to ask a PG about. Don't really understand the logic myself, since they wanted feedback, so the PGs would have needed.to let their players see it.
>>
>>44854517
PP only wants PGs to have access to the doc so they can iterate and maintain one consistent flow of feedback instead of everyone starting threads cause they lost one game on a new scenario. Two years ago someone leaked the doc and they cut PGs out of the loop, this year it happened again.
>>
>>44855328
>most fun
Mak3. It doesn't get any more front-line. Really looking forward to playing her in ADR. She benefits so much from it.

>What caster would you most like to be friends with?
Skorne don't have friends ;_;
>>
Reptile Hounds. Worth using?
>>
>>44855677
Take Zaal1. Take Zaadesh and some Reptile Hounds.

Last Stand + Flank + Tag Team + Enrage = MAT9+3D6 to hit and POW12+5W6 on the charge.

Not really my cup of tea, but should be fun if you can get it to work.
>>
>>44855712
I'd like it to work. Reptile Hounds are basically a super meaty unit that costs 2 points per model, and each model has 2 fury.
>>
>>44855328
Scyrah

>Most fun
Rahn with gun-fu Ravyn not far behind

>Hanging out with
Ossyan
>>
>>44855499
>>44854517
This guy is correct >>44855510
They didn't want a flood of Nuevo bitching and moaning at this early stage. We're able to show you the document too but got can't make a copy of it or anything like that
>>
>>44856817
>Nuevo bitching
My phone is strange
>>
>>44856817
The thing is, if you can show people the document, then how does that stop people from going around bitching about things? Like, if enough people go inline and say 'Hey, my PG showed me the beta to test and this is what it said' we'd get just as good an idea what's in the packet even if we don't have a local PG. If they wanted mre closed beta approach where they can more easily filter the data that's fine, but this was never going to accomplish that unless they told the PGs to only test it against each other.
>>
>>44857018
Those people don't have the docs and unless they have photographic memory it's not like they know or even remember everything.

The idea with the PGs is for us to be a filter and to provide the best feedback so they can implement changes that are actually good and their not wasting their time reading the forums. They could get that by sharing it with everyone but they'd have to sort through a mountain of shit to get to the good stuff. That takes man hours and money. It's way easier to have your unpaid volunteers do it in their free time.

Players are allowed to discuss the document by the way. They just weren't supposed to get a direct copy of it.
>>
>>44857108
>release SR betas publicly
>take feedback through the PG forum
Boom. Problem solved.
>>
>>44857127
Truly, your genius is astounding. They still want to share beta stuff with all of their players. You don't share stuff in development with literally everyone. PGs are supposed to act as a filter but they're also able to disseminate information about the packet a little at a time rather than all at once.

You're never going to be happy with the answer I give you, just let it go.
>>
>>44857182
>are supposed to act as a filter but they're also able to disseminate information about the packet a little at a time rather than all at once
That is a very long-winded way of saying absolutely nothing.
>>
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>>44857212
I told you to let it go anon.

The only other example I can give you without screenshoting the PG board is that the big thing we weren't supposed to share are the new terrain rules. They're pretty different, but theyre also in flux and if the beta hadn't been they'd be constantly updated. This also happens with the scenarios and eventually the objectives, etc.

Regular players don't need that and regardless of what you think, PP doesn't want them to have it either.

Here, have a Spiderman meme for your trouble.
>>
>>44855328
Most fun: gaspy2, scaverous, venethrax

Be pals with: probs gaspy. He seems good at giving presents
>>
>>44855328
Drake McBain

Drake McBain
>>
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So how are your armies coming along?
>>
>>44857182
Im just not sure how that lessens the inflow of info when people are allowed to see it. I took notes so I could give my pg feedback

Although, its not as if there is an influx of threads on the forums.
>>
>>44858013
What are you doing w/ madrak?
>>
>>44858036
>Although, its not as if there is an influx of threads on the forums.
Well they did close the beta since it leaked. Usually there isn't a lot of discussion on the boards while the beta is going on. There's some chatter but we're usually pretty good about limiting who gets to see what.
>>
>>44858077
Giving him a facelift, and then throwing him and his posse of anal midgets at my enemies.
>>
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>>44858237
Forgot my pic.
>>
>>44857182
>>44857290
Just want to point out that I'm not the anon who was arguing with you, but the guy who wrote >>44857018
The thing is, from a beta testing standpoint their process doesn't make a lot of sense and I can't see it ending any other way.

If the terrain rules weren't ready for out-of-house testing, why post them with everything else? If you don't want to filter through non-PG feedback, why not just announce that and proceed to ignore anyone who tries.

I completely agree that they had every right to pull the beta once that guy broke the agreement you guys made with them. That's how these things work. But, I just don't understand why that was the agreement in the first place, and that's vexing.
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>>44858454
PP works in weird ways sometimes. They're pretty hesitant to share stuff with the general public and forums. Considering every time they do their forums explode into a mountain of shit I don't really blame them.

But yeah, sometimes they do stuff that doesn't always make sense
>>
Let's have a design challenge in the vein of /btg/.

How about a Steelhead cavalry 'caster who works well with the heavy cavalry?
>>
>>44858454

I assume that they wanted to keep the feedback limited to people who actually played with the changes instead of a bunch of armchair generals flooding the forum with complaints despite not having actually played with the changes.
>>
>>44858632
This too
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>>44855912
Ossyan is probably the only one you could hang out with safely. Maybe Issyria, but she's a mega bitch and dawg you know she ain't riding yo dick for this right?

We don't know enough about Tyrone other than that he's a man of the people and a shit caster.
>>
Haven't even read it yet.
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Hey, hey asshole from last thread. I fucking g told you Warders were getting the nerf bat. Go fuck yourself

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?244124-OFFICIAL-January-2016-Errata-Discussion
>>
>>44859569
Ok, now I've read it.

Brad tier nerfed, EE nerfed, Warders nerfed, Jesus.
>>
>>44859605
Runes nerfed too, lots of little buffs everywhere. Get rekt trolls
>>
>>44859569
Bradigus theme force tier 3 benefit nerfed and made useless. From "Sentry stones start with 3 fury" to "you get +1 to your starting roll."

Calandra elemental evolution tier 1 and tier 4 benefits switch places. Tier 1 is that "all warbeasts affected by chosen animus of friendly warbeast" thing, and tier 4 is now the "all warbeasts in calandras battlegroup cost -1 points."
>>
>>44859569
>>44859600
HAHAHAHAHA! Warders are useless now! BWAHAHAHAHA!
>>
>>44859605
Also, some random buffs.

MoW Bombs got CRA, Destors got Quick Work, Karax got Set Defense.

Some other nerfs, Runeshapers got slightly nerfed, Woldwarden's Animus got changed, need to look to see if it's a buff or a nerf, Infinite Kharn no longer possible.
>>
>>44859569
>Bombardiers get CRA

At least you tried, PP.
>>
>>44859699
It's honestly a pretty decent buff for them. I dunno if it makes them worth using, but it does help with one of their primary issues.
>>
>>44859728
>primary issues

Their primary issue is being a fucking Man-o-War unit with ranged weapons that lack range. Either in the form of speed, or actual range on the weapons.

Combined ranged attack just means you can hit two shots from them a turn. WHOOPEE.
>>
>>44859766
Their biggest issue, the lack of range as they said, they can't fix without breaking the entire faction. Snipe in faction would be retarded.

Giving them +4 range themselves might work, but then they go from useless to insanely good.

They're overall being conservative with their choices.

What's even funnier is that they nerfed the shit out of Trolls for being top dog, and barely touched anyone else. No pSkarre nerf, no eVayl nerf.
>>
>>44859687
yea but runesharpers got a hella buff. auto kockdowns
>>
>>44859837
They lost range and can't do it on a charge.
>>
>>44859837
Auto-knockdown but smaller range and can't be used on a charge.
>>
>>44858266
Not sure how I like that pose. It's better than the original pMagnus but it still doesn't feel like he's doing much but standing there.
>>
>>44859889

They can still toss rocks at range 8. Just Tremor changed.
>>
>>44860162
By "lost range" I'm pretty sure he meant that Trembler's 3" AoE has less range than Tremor's everything within 2".
>>
>>44860257
Oh my bad, yep I see that now. Quick reading took it wrong
>>
>>44859569
Aw yeah. Fearless Advocate.
>>
This Errata pleases me.

...and I play Troll suckas!!
It didn't take a genius to tell that Trolls were getting nerfed.



So I've been playing with other lists to get a one up on you two trick posers that jumped in my faction.
>>
>>44859803
>no eVayl nerf

after finally taking the time to learn how to use her, I gotta say, I am more than ok with this decision.
>>
>>44859699
Its not a negligible buff especially under Vlad.
unless I am mistaken and CRA does not add to the blast damage?
>>
>>44859569
Guys I want to start the game but do I have to put in all the earrant/rule crap up to this point or just replace stuff on the 2010 cards i got with this and it'll be fine? Cause I'm not going into it if i have to do some serious lawer altering stuff to my cards.
>>
>>44860644
Oh shit. Seriously?

I thought that was getting a nerf.
>>
>>44860871
90% of the nerfs you're seeing here is stuff that you aren't likely to deal with, outside of maybe Warders. Plus, you can use warroom if you've got a tablet to have the updated cards already.
>>
What would Coleman Stryker be called if he was a Khadoran?

Coleslav Stryker
>>
>Trolls get nerfed to hell
>No changes to Cryx
>Brad won't even notice the change to Wold War

I see we're back to Trolls can't have nice things and Cryx still reigns supreme. What is this, 2011?
>>
>>44858714
Yeah you might get into some combat hanging out with Ossyan but he probably wouldn't sacrifice you in a political maneuver.He just wants to prove he's not evil.
>>
>>44861404
Cryx nerfs are incoming. Just wait a bit longer.

The changes that Cryx needs are more an issue of how the game is structured rather than a standout issue.
>>
>>44861404
Brad will absolutely notice the changes to WW.

Being able to block LoS is what saved him against lists that can just murder his shit, and now he can't do that anymore.
>>
>>44860897
Thanks. Just seems if i started I would be playing with outdated rules. I've no tablet so can't use warroom. These kind of changes discourage me as a hopeful new player.
>>
>>44861645
They're balance changes dealing with the competitive meta, and a lot of these changes have to do with tier lists and other high end shit.

It can be useful to have the errata printed, but if you're just dicking around playing casually the errata stuff isn't a big deal for most things. The quality of life changes are important, but only if you're using those units, and generally just make whatever it is work the way you'd think it would work, instead of having some wonky interaction.
>>
>>44861518
I find that very hard to believe. There's several very easy changes they could have made to make Cryx less of a ball buster and they did none of it.

If anything Cryx got a buff, since the nasty troll lists they were quite afraid of no longer exist.
>>
Ugh. Just make mkiii already.

Too many individual model erratas.

At least let me buy new cards or something.
>>
>>44848371
IT'S BEAUTIFUL !!!!!
T_T

let the tears FLOW !!!
I fucking love this PP !!
>>
>>44849757
Not since the errata !!!
OMG troll players salty salty tears !!

But wait. I thought Menoth players were going to be salty too? I don't see why?

It's a pity PP didn't see our last WMH thread with the proposal that bane thralls AND errants also lose weapon master, out of compassion for their trollblood brethen, if not for game balance.
>>
I really hope the Warder nerf is the first nerf to other reach weapon master units. Making reach & weapon master an either-or ability for units would certainly get people to diversify their list building.
It doesn't weaken Cryx that much since they still have McThralls and Satyxis, but whatever, one step at a time.

>>44861754
Trolls still have Grim1 and Grissel1, they don't have any reason to bitch about Cryx.
>>
>>44862140
>Trolls still have Grim1 and Grissel1, they don't have any reason to bitch about Cryx.
Neither of those are EE and both are easily countered by Cryx.

Yeah, Cryx got crazy buffed by this and the new SR2016 terrain made suffice Bane Knights even better. 2016 is shaping up to be dominated by Cryx with few challengers.
>>
what's the Glacier King's Sweep errata mean in plain english
>>
>>44862684
Nothing. That's how sweeps have always worked, they just forgot to print that bit on the new power attack cards that come with the gargs.
>>
>>44862684
oh it's several of the gargantuan
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>>44862684
I believe it changes nothing. It just need a weapon in a hand and it has one, called Big Frosty Fist
>>
Skorne:

No more infinite Karn
Extoller UA now Fearless
Karax gain Set Defense

bretty gud
>>
>>44859600
look hungerford, we guessed there was some basis to your rumors, but they were a little bit too vague.

Next time, be slightly less vague: or give more rumors.

When do you remove weapon master from errants and banes?
That will be glorious.
>>
>>44862506

Grim 1 is not easily countered by Cryx.

Grissel, yes she has some bad Cryx matchups (Gaspy) but it's playable.
>>
>>44860871
Don't bother with the errata right now. Once you're really comfortable with the rules of the game, read them once. You'll pretty much instantly get what they're about.
>>
>pp starts buffing useless shit
>no deliverer buff
>no cinerator buff
>no castigator buff
>eSeverius feat is still useless against CoC

is Matt Ward a fedora????
>>
>>44863009
Matt Ward is collection of assorted hats that would put Gaben to shame.
>>
http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-01-18-2016
>you might be surprised to learn that “this wins too often” almost never results in those changes
>>
>>44860762
yes it does though.
Flameguard cleansers have been doing this since forever.

6 man CRA, say the direct hit is POW 12 + 6dudes = pow18
the blast is pow12 /2= 6 + 6 dudes, so POW12 blast.
Not bad.
>>
>>44863155
This is why Cryx never gets nerfed
>>
>>44859569
>CAPTAIN kARA sloAN. FIRING sQUAd. Replace the second sentence of Firing Squad with the following: When a model in Sloan’s battlegroup that is in her control area hits an enemy model with a normal ranged attack during its activation, immediately after that attack is resolved one other model in Sloan’s battlegroup that is in her control area can make one normal ranged attack.

So does this mean Sloan can basically get every single extra shot every time a jack scores a hit?
>>
The high arm skew meta is dead. Long live controll casters
>>
>>44863244
Well arcing fire is better than spray, I guess?
I am not saying its the second coming but its not nothing.They probably should have this and cost a point less but its still something.
>>
>>44861518
You mean the way they are all undead and fearless, therefore immune to large swathes of rules?
Or that they have access to extra magic (via souls) that many other forces cannot match?
Or that they have large amounts of recursion and recursion is dangerous in any game system because it can very quickly get out of hand.
>>
>>44863425
Yes. Better than nothing. Still a hefty price tag though for a heavy armored slow unit that wants to shoot from the back, but also get stuck in with their chainsaws at the same time in order to make up for their points cost.
>>
>>44863378
No, read the next sentence of that feat:
>A model can make only one Firing Squad attack.
>>
>>44861404
Cryx recieced the majority of the nerfs in the last 2 errats. Im surprised machinations was left alone but w/e.

Kinda sad I'll never play into EE again
>>
>Warders nerfed
Thank jesus. Fuck MMM
>>
>>44863392
You mean like in previous metas?
>>
>>44863009
buffing things isn't the idea atm.
Nerfing the outrageous shit is.

Balance might never be perfect, but they can shave off the bits that stick out.
I believe legion and cryx stick out quite a lot, especially since this latest errata.

But cryx and legion sell like hot cakes, so is that why they don't get nerfed?
>>
>>44863544

Fuck, good point.

So it's pretty much just the clarification they posted ages ago about allocation.
>>
>>44863546
Why Machinations? Every single time an errata comes out, people keep saying that they wanted Machinations to get a nerf. Why?
It's a good tier list with a really good caster, sure, fine. It's not an auto-win button. Even JVM loses with the list on occasion. It doesn't solve all of Legion's issues. It isn't warping the meta like EE or Wold War was.
>>
>>44863693
I actually am in the same camp as you, Machinations is a non issue as far as themes are concerned in my book. However it seems like most pairings include it and i was under the impression that PP was trying to nerf themes that were extra popular
>>
>>44863693
Its free benefits for playing a top tier caster the way they want to be played.

Imagine if harby's theme force was book+errants+rhupert+reckoners and a devout.

Obviously bad for the game
>>
>>44863693
Because it's not bumping up a bad caster, it's not offering unusual list comp, it's not even fluffy.

It's just plain braindeadidly good
>>
>>44863822
>>44863881
Being good doesn't mean it's bad for the game, even if Vayl2 is good already.

Take what Will said in >>44863155 with a huge grain of salt, but still:
>we look at variables such as a model’s effect on the meta and health of the game overall, the play experience both with and against a model, whether or not a model is unintentionally invalidating other options within its own faction, and many, many more considerations.
Does Machinations have a negative effect on the meta? Is the play experience against Machinations always going to be shit, no matter what caster or faction you play? Is Machinations being played all the time in tournaments to the point where other options in the faction are rendered irrelevant? Are all Machinations lists the same?

Also, I've seen more people playing Vayl2 out of tier since Croak Raiders came out. She does not need to be played in-tier all the time.
>>
After an abortive attempt to get into the game a couple of years ago I've decided to try again with a different faction.
Is the warcaster chick (who's name I cannot for the life of me remember) who can summon alternate versions of herself any good? I quite like the fluff of her I've read so far but I don't wanna end up gimping my army before I even begin.

Secondly is there any source for the novels? I found an old torrent with a couple in, but nothing recent and I didn't see it in the OP.
>>
>>44863822
>obviously bad for the game
A theme force is supposed to have a theme. Themes which can be summed up as "all the best possible options for this caster" aren't very fluffly as far as themes go.

Taking all the best things you want is what you do out of theme.
>>
>>44864097
Machinations does have a negative effect on the meta.
When it's in almost every legion pairing then something is amiss.
It might not be so stronk, but it's an autoplay list. Not what warmachine is supposed to be.
>>
>>44864193
Haley3 is really good. Likely the best caster in Cygnar.

Can't help you with the second one.
>>
>>44864252
>Likely the best caster in Cygnar.
>not Allistar "end your activation within 18" of me and die" Caine
>>
>>44864276
Yes. Not Caine2. Haley3 actually threats farther than him and is way more versatile.
>>
>>44864252
Cool.

Is there anything obviously terrible for Cygnar that I should watch out for?

Also I assume the numerical designations are to differentiate the different versions of each character. is there a list of them, or is it just one of those things you learn as you go along?
>>
>>44851020
What was spoiled? I saw teasers of a new Man-O-War, and some new storm-smith with what look like lightning grenades awhile back. Kinda dropped off the hobby for a little while and missed everything.
>>
>>44864239
>Machinations does have a negative effect on the meta.
That negative effect being? 5 extra points (6 if you go crazy with a 6-beast loadout), a +1 to go first, and +2 SPD on the first turn are not meta-breaking benefits. The extra points almost always go into buying infantry (which are usually pot-fodder anyways), the other two benefits just let her pressure scenario early. She can't break a game like Deneghra2.
>When it's in almost every legion pairing then something is amiss.
Just going off what DGI has for the past year, not counting WTC,
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/469
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/465
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/521
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/498
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/508
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/556
>it's an autoplay list
Spoken like someone who has never played the list.
>>
>>44864629
keep cherry picking, nigga.

you just implied that free light beasts (from the pot) from free infantry (bought with discounts on beasts) which by the way can still do it's job, isn't a good thing?
Really? Just how fucking stupid are you?
>>
>>44864856
When did I say that the LESSER beasts (get the rules right first before you bitch about something) from the pot aren't a good thing? Yeah, they're good, but they're not fucking meta-breaking like you seem to be implying.

If the list goes the 6-beast loadout, the only source of early corpses is from the vessel unit cannibalizing itself. What's your argument then, that a list of 6 glass cannon heavies is breaking the game?
>>
>>44865009
6 heavies are a big fucking deal.
>>
tier lists were a mistake. the first wave was alright but this nq shit killed the game along with colossals
>>
>>44865339
Not nearly as big a deal as 12 light warbeasts that eat infantry swarms & heavies alike or triple stone teleportation (or just double teleporting heavies with reach, if the official explanation is true) or completely shutting down scenario as a potential win condition or literally dictating to your opponent how they are allowed activate their models. Those are big fucking deals that broke the game.

Legion isn't even the only faction that can do 6 heavy lists. Rasheth's Chain Gang does it, Harby's tier list does it (not commonly played, but woe to anyone unlucky enough to go up against the curious Protectorate player that decides to try it out), fuck, the NQ list for the Witch Coven can run 8 or 9 heavies.
>>
>>44864193

All of the Haleys are pretty killer but if you're just starting they might not be the best choices as they can be so good you don't really get to learn how to properlly use your Cygnar units and you might develop bad habits and crutches.

By all means go for it but I'd recommend Seige as an initial caster. He's awesome and generally has an answer for every threat that'll bring out the best in a lot of Cygnar's units. He comes with the all in one set which has a lot of stuff you're garunteed to use so grab that and Reinholdt for a solo to really make him kick ass.
>>
>>44864193
Skullislandx.com has all the novels
>>
>>44864555

I can't really think of anything genuinely terrible, but Fireflys aren't really useful without stormcallers. Triumph is good but heinously overpriced for what you get, but that's just an upgrade kit for a regular heavy chasis so if you're magnetizing them it's really just an extra option you have.

One thing to keep in mind is that a hunter is pretty much mathematically better at killing big stuff than the defender in every way, its a better jack for marshalling to gun mages, and it's 3 points cheaper in addition to getting an extra 6 inches of deployment and the ability to ignore free strikes. The Defender is still really nasty, and if I could only pick one I'd orobably pick the Defender but the hunter is way better than point cost might imply.

Stormguard are a little lacking for infantry. They can kill a ton of tradh infantry in a turn but they're slow, cant defend themselves, and really don't have the armor to survive on their own. Boomhowlers are a much better choice.
>>
>>44855328
>Who's the most fun caster for your faction
Siege if you ask me.
>>
>>44866266
Any other casters you'd recommend I avoid at first? Or others like Siege that are noob friendly?

>>44866271
That was helpful, thank you....

>>44866442
Coming from 40k, not having anything completely terrible will be a nice novelty lol
>>
>>44866679
A lot of cygnar infantry gets a bad rap, but they're largely workable. Especially trenchers under Haley 3. Other than that, you may want to get some of the merc mainstays such as aiyana/Holt, boomhowlers, and nyss hunters.
>>
The main take from this is.

Wards are nerffed

MOW have been made less worse but still not good.
>>
>>44867033
>khador still a meme army
Why is anyone surprised?
>>
Anyone that thinks warders are unplayable is a fucking moron. 8 points to guarantee a zone/flag being held is dirt cheap.

Oh no baby can't play defense and offense with the same undercosted unit? Boo Fucking Hoo
>>
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So I stopped playing Trollbloods for a year or two due to uni work, but I'm looking to jump back in. How much have the Trollbloods changed in recent history?

Also, I'm a big fan of the new Dhunian Knot models. How well do they preform?
>>
>>44867510
I have a similar (though maybe a bit more subdued) felling toward Stromguard.

I asked about them here and the general response was... lackluster at best...

but after playing with them, I am quite impressed with what they can do.

sorry, but having a reach weapon + Combined Melee Attack + Ranked Attack = Someone is going to have a bad day.

Electrical Discharge and Electro Leap is just icing on the cake.

and set defense means you are not rushing to get the charge to prevent getting charged, if you have a good position or a unit you want to protect, they are perfectly fine holding back and waiting for a better opportunity.
>>
>>44867510
I'm going to play doubles advocate here and say that weapon master could have been replaced with CMA (like shocktroopers).
Otherwise I agree with you

>oh no baby can't play defense and offense with the same undercosted unit
just wait till the UA gets released
>>
Oh god. These tears.

They are delicious!

Except Warder Nerf. Guess I'm going back to Fenns.
>>
>>44867714
Granted: weapon master
>>
>>44867968
>Oh god. These tears.
>They are delicious!
The Troll forums are amazing right now. I freaking love it
>>
So in the errata it mentions the bog trog trawler, anyone have the stat card for that lovely looking fishy bastard?
>>
>>44867704
Trolls just got gutted by today's errata.

MMM, EE, and Rune of War all got shit on.
>>
>>44867968
I don't even play Trolls and I feel bad for them. Trolls only had 3 competitive lists and they all got kneecapped.

It seems like only Cryx and Legion get to have nice things.

Good thing I started the game with Legion
>>
>>44868585
Comes out on Wednesday
>>
>>44868731
cool thanks
>>
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So I've been posting in the Troll forums and seriously, fuck those guys. Fuck them with whatever blunt object is handy.

I get that having your stuff changed sucks, but I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiney, entitled, little shit lords. I swear you'd think the forum had turned into a 40k general on /tg/
>>
>>44868884
fuck em.
When my casual shit troll army got nerfed nobody said anything
>>
>>44868588

>glorious claw-hammering of every trollblood list pairing day

Eh, they'll Tough.
>>
>>44868976
Trolls are my main faction, I've played them for years, and I'm totally ok with these changes. They're good for the faction and the game but these people are irritating as fuck.
>>
>>44867996
Tactics: Pre-2016 Errata
>>
>>44867707
So long as you can deliver them. I love seeing them across the table because of Ashes to Ashes and my Incindiarii
>>
>>44861404

Pistol Wraiths got a nerf.
>>
>>44859659

i mean thats still 8 AD lights and a garg. It'll still probably be scary
>>
>>44859728

CRA blasts are actually really good since the CRAs add to dice rolls and not the pow so the blast damage is cut in half then you add the cra bonus.
>>
>>44862044
>>44862939

I'm somewhat fine with Bane Thralls having weapon master.

Them having stealth is what really confuses me.
>>
>>44869931
Play cryx and try to deliver them outside of Gorshade2/Coven stealth skew. It's way harder than people think. That's why knights are so much more common now.
>>
>>44869931
Saying this as a Legion and Khador player that hates fighting MMM

Bane Thralls are insane and meta warping, imo.

>effectively POW 13 weapon master
>ARM debuff of enemy models
>stealth so they can survive getting to the front lines
>tough
>dead rise

This isn't even counting all the shit Tartarus brings to the table

They're undercosted for what they bring to a fight.

But god fucking forbid that Trolls get a POW 10 weapon master.
>>
>>44869792
Yes, but RNG10 hurts so much more.
>>
>>44870263
The problem was that warders were straight up better than all the other troll options, while bane thralls are matched in stupidity with bane knights and satyxis
>>
>>44855328
For my skorne, Naaresh

For my Khador, Karchev

I wouldn't want to hang out with anyone in Skorne but I'd hang out with Strakhov or Vlad or Harkevich
>>
So, with the changes to the Splatter Boar, who's hoping some Warmachine factions pick up access to that gas?

It's like the Hordes version of disruption.
>>
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Aha hahaha... Oh man... It's just trolls trolling trolls now

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?244126-New-Errata-is-out-We-got-hit-hard&p=3384007&viewfull=1#post3384007
>>
>>44870558
I take that back, Rasheth would be dope to hang out with. Rasheth is literally hedonism bot, if I was on his good side he could show me all kinds of shit
>>
>>44870287

I'll give you that(coming from legion) but with scatter and cra, you can now use them to try to take hail marys on turn one from 12-14 inches back then on the next turn, you'll be in range while your opponent will have had to deal with your screening unit.

again I'm not saying it's ideal but they are wayyyyyy better now and probably a little playable
>>
>>44870674
Or you could use winter guard rocketeers, or mortars
>>
>>44870719

yes you could but if you didn't want to, at least you wouldn't be laughed off the table
>>
>>44855328
Probably Gaspy3, or scaverous as the most fun. Mortenebra seems like she'd be cool to hang out with.
>>
>>44870620
Not to mention he's pretty much the most powerful mortiheurge we know of.
>>
>>44867707
They're offense is just fine. It's their defense that is subpar, ironically so if you consider their name. But if the enemy has close to no range threats, they can be worth it. Or if you bring Haley3 fór DEF14 (16 against charges).
>>
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>>44870541
There were so many ways to nerf warders but they took the dumbest options to do so.

Hungerford talks of negative play experience but no one complained that warders were great bears and killing shit like colossals in 3 swings.
the negative play experience was that warders were unkillable assholes.
So now got a unit compromise that no one is happy with. Troll players hate it because they do nothing and opponent hates it because they are still a bitch to remove.
>>
>>44871392
>They're offense
How the fuck did that happen? It's early in the morning around here.
>>
>>44871534
>opponent hates it because they are still a bitch to remove
I like it. They still fill their core role (being hard to kill), but don't murderize heavies on the side. It was the right call.
>>
>>44871534

That seems to be their latest design philosophy. Take above average shit and nerf it in the worst way possible.

I call bullshit on their "we plan changes years ahead" boasts.
>>
>>44871534
I like it.

Battle Driven and weapon master was dumb. One of those had to go, but one of those is unique to Warders. So Weapon Master took a dive.
I don't think there should be anything as hard to remove as Warders that hit that hard to retaliate outside Warjacks.
>>
>>44871784

Yea, not like Vengers and Rhoven had Battle Driven before.
>>
>>44871784
I legit thought that the nerf was going to be only +2 arm and not damage. So I got that wrong.

>44871853
Yeah but their armor was not Eleventy Billion and cheap as fuck for 5.
>>
>>44871392
>But if the enemy has close to no range threats
fair enough, though usually if I'm having them take a defensive stance, I'm either positioning them such that the terrain forces enemy units into shitty positions to get a clear shot at them, or what's behind the Stormguard is geared toward dealing with it (in my case either a Charger warjack, or Siege Brisbane firing all the rockets)
>>
Ordered this list as my first dip into Scyrah coming from Legion

Adeptis Rahn Shyeel (*6pts)
* Phoenix (10pts)
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Stormfall Archers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (5pts)
Stormfall Archers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (5pts)
Arcanist (1pts)

Tell me how I fucked up /tg/
>>
>>44872070
By not getting Silly Willy. Apart from that, good list.
>>
>>44872030
Perfectly viable. You just need to hope you don't come up against stuff like Feora2 + Jew Dictator.
>>
Can't we all just give up this hobby and touch tummies together in public?
>>
>>44866679

Stryker1 is a good one to learn on and he's a good caster on this own merits. You can get him with the battlebox, which means you also get two very useful lights and a heavy chasis with him for the price of one kit. Combined with something like the all in one box you'll have a lot of options and two really good casters to learn from, and if you're magnetizing you'll have two heavies which can field as two ironclads or a mix of defenders, cyclones or ironclads depending on what your list needs. Otherwise Caine2 is considered the ultimate assassination based caster, and Sloan is somewhere between Seige and Caine, and is generally a hell of a lot of fun if you want to play someone different.

There really aren't any bad units at all in Cygnar to be fair. It's just how and when you use them (a Lancer will be great with Stryker but not Seige for example). Deapite what I said about Storm guard thats mostly on their abilities as a meat shield. As a second wave mopping up crew they're deadly as hell if theyre not all getting killed in the first turn.
>>
>>44859569
>that stealth Harbinger nerd
Goodbye tournement menoth. You will be missed
>>
>>44874711
Nerf* fuck you mobile
>>
>>44862044
They nerfed Harbinger, if they remove weapon master from errants you might as well stop playing menoth.
>>
>>44874750
errant nerf is coming

too many people complaining that they can't make karenfag lists with the cinerators from the 2 player starter

its an NPE, you see, to be told a shit unit is shit
>>
>>44874711
>stealth Harbinger nerf
Not seeing it. What is it?
>>
>>44874813
Nothing, I am retarted. I though Harbinger used her control range, not her comand, for martyrdom. Ignore those posts.
>>
>>44874778
Cinerators work fine for starting games. PP won't Nerf a unit to make another easier to use. That's retarted. If anything they should just package a small unit of EE with the starter box. Gives a better value.
>>
>>44874929
>control range for martyrdom
THE HORROR
>>
>>44874959
The real horror is the idiot spewing about how EE are going to lose weapon master. It's the only reason they have Quick Work.
>>
>>44875037
Errants are okay. The problem is Harbinger. She really needs a hit with the bat. Not as much as Vayl2 (or machinations, as those are essentially the same thing), but still.
>>
>>44872248
>You just need to hope you don't come up against stuff like Feora2 + Jew Dictator.
I actually don't have to worry about that. The one Menoth player I most often go up against the most refuses to use her. This is on the grounds that, in the lore, she's a real bitch.
>>
>>44848371
Why is everybody complaining about trollbloods' errata. Min-maxed tournament EE was good, but far from imaginative, and made you invest in too many models you wouldn't play otherwise. Besides, I'd include my Mountain King in it anyway. Also, the warders might have been better for their price compared to other choices, but Champions/fennblades with UA and solo should be able to smack a bitch, shouldn't they?
>>
>>44875430
Well have fun then. I kind of want to try them with Haley3. DEF17 against charges should be able to hold a zone, once the rest of the list takes out the stuff that can reliably shoot them.
>>
>>44876351
Because now Trolls have to take one unit as anvil and one as hammer. They lost their underpriced anvilhammer unit.

Maybe we'll see some Toughallos then. Those are cool enough to almost make me play Trolls.
>>
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omg .. the tears are so delicious..
>>
>>44876411
Get outta here facebook
>>
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>>44876467
i wish they had just shopped the mace with a nerf bat
>>
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Got some extra cash and I want to flush out my Khador army. I know I'm definitely going to get Ruin, but I am wondering if I should go for the great bear unit, or the widowmakers and the widow maker marksman. I am still new to the game, and as far as casters go I have Scorsha 1 and butcher 1 and 2. What would you recommend out of the two units I listed or should I go for something else? Already have winter guard, their UA and kovnik Joe. Looking to spend around $40 not including the Ruin.
>>
>>44876768
Great bears are the best investment you'll ever make.

Try to eventually get the black dragon pikemen plastic kit and an iron fang kovnik.
>>
>>44876846
So will the bears fit in well with my lists that generally include the whole winter guard shebang, a spriggan, devastator, and the ruin when I get it? I'll always also use the war dog. I've also got the jacks that come with the starter kit.
>>
>>44876908
You really should only be using one warjack most of the time.
>>
>>44876963
Yeah, I do but i might switch between those. Just giving an idea of the rest of the jacks I have.
>>
>>44876977
Great bears with any kind of an offensive buff have one-rounded gargossals for me. They will kill anything in the game.
>>
>>44869476
That's from last year, they just clarified it.
>>
>>44871784
>I don't think there should be anything as hard to remove as Warders that hit that hard to retaliate outside Warjacks.
Bane Thralls exist and do exactly that.
>>
>>44876768
>great bear unit, or the widowmakers and the widow maker marksman
Both. But I'd say Black Dragons are more important than either.
>>
>>44877298
Oh come on, they're nowhere even near as hard to remove as Warders.
>>
>>44876372
>I kind of want to try them with Haley3
good combo, though combined with Siege's feat, they can also get a pretty savage CMA, just saying, since the second row can also contribute to a CMA, they can get a pretty high bonus already, add on that the opponent's ARM is halved and now these guys are putting some serious hurt on even heavy jacks.
>>
>>44877351
You either need a way to ignore stealth or a barrage of sprays to even attempt to remove them before they start to push your shit in.
>>
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>>44877583
>You either need a way to ignore stealth or a barrage of sprays to even attempt to remove them before they start to push your shit in.
you rang?
>>
>>44877583
Well wasn't there a ton of single wound infantry hate that drove people into arm spam to begin with?

What makes banes immune from those?
>>
>>44877583
Or anything that outhreats SPD5 without reach.
>>
>>44874750
>>44874778
Erm, guys. English might not be your native language, but at least make a fucking effort.
>>
>>44874750
They nerf Harbinger? Pray tell, how did they do that?
>>
>>44874929
Yes, I concur.
You are an infidel and a fool.
Spouting bullshit on teeg is an offence. Join the wracking queue.
>>
>>44876411
yes, they are wonderful. So salty and sweet.
>>
I haven't played this game in a few months, and as Convergence player, updates just sorta don't happen.
Should I just sell my shit already and buy something useful.
>>
>>44868884
Boo-fucking-hoo. They should try and use MoWs, that'd shut em up. Our heavy infantry isn't as good. At least yours was good to begin with.
>>
>>44877746
Dead rise tough and armor that shrugs off most blast damage.

Scather and covering fire is the thing that they can't overcome
>>
>>44869241

The whining never ends. For whatever reason, Troll players still thought themselves the underdogs even with all the crazy shit they could bring.

>>44878283

You were warned that would be the case. Right from the get go. You were warned! We even tell new players this. "Don't expect to get cool new toys every year"

>>44878314

Oh I always had mine blasted off the table... Guess there is a lot more Cygnar/Circle/Trolls/Menoth/Cryx/Legion/Mercs in my area than yours.
>>
>>44870263
Its 15 points.
>>
>>44878738
>three years later
Yeah okay. Wasn't the point though. I'll probably sell because I haven't found a shop yet that isn't a 2 hour drive from my house.
Community is toxic and garbage to boot.
>>
>>44879446
the community is toxic and garbage? On the internet, I agree, but IRL warmachine players are pretty solid guys (and a couple of gals)
>>
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Ask him about propane or propan equipment. Also knows the quikest road to Urcaen.
>>
>>44879623
Nah.
Had one guy get mad any time his faction wasn't declared as the absolute greatest and almost cried when someone told him MoWs "weren't that good."
Had another guy vape all over the table
Another one went on an hour long rant about the state of the game and was generally a cunt.
Got to watch one newbie join, eventually lose hope, and leave because everyone was a neckbeard and played their most WAAC lists against him.
And the memes. Dear god the memes.
>>
>>44879808
pic is too big.
But the paint is okay, good enough to get him on the table, which is more than waht can be said about some cryx spamlists.
>>
>>44879849
Sheiiit.
Wait, why are memes a bad thing?

The rest, yeah. Looks like fat neckbeards gotta neckbeard.

WMH does bring out the WAAC in people,although usually most of them can tame down a bit to play a newb into the game.
Get the newb psyched up, get them into some neat list building
bring them up a few levels

Then smash them.
>>
>>44877298
Yeah, sort of.
Banes are the root of the problem with WMH.

You see, in the very first forcebooks for MkII, 2 units got some pretty MkI-like buffs.
A OP ua for banes, and an OP ua for errants.
Both of these units are now so fucking blatantly better than any other choice.

Sure you don't have to take them.
Sure you can win without them
But they're so good, why not take them?

And thats the problem.

Fix WMH? a couple of light things would help:
1) remove weapon master from banes and errants.
2) -1THR to all warbeasts. Down to a minimum of 6. If WBs actually did have a downside, then fury wouldn't appear so OP
>>
>>44880050
>-1 THR
Threat? Throw? Threshold? Thrfury?
>>
>>44880138
THR=Threshold.

Need me to go through the rest of the common 3-letter abbreviations?
>>
>>44875140

It's really more an issue with errants than her. Errants are a better choice than basically anything else if you want your plentiful weaponmasters in the faction.
>>
>>44880050
What are you even talking about? People take knights over thralls in almost every list now.

And you take at least 20 of them so a few make it.
>>
>>44880277
You're right.
>Remove WM from ALL banes. All of them. stealth, dark shroud, recursion, no knockdown tough, reach, ghostly vengeance. undead (no souls and fearless)

Yeah you're right banes are good enough.
>>
>>44880474
Drop WM from banes and they would never be taken again. They would be awful. MAT 6 anti infantry. Oh joy.
>>
>>44880849
Make banes as killable as doom reavers and they can keep WM.
>>
Picked up two units of drudges and a unit of overlords for body and soul, so I figured I'd start cephalyx, gonna be buying two heavies, two agitators and a dominator for a unit of nyss hunters. Besides that whats their playstyle besides dude spam, and how are their casters?
>>
>>44880898
>Make banes as killable as doom reavers and they can keep WM.
>MAT 7
>Berzerk
>Spd 6
>AD
>Magic Weapons
>Spellward
>Abom
>Totally equivalent

Doom Reavers can ruin infantry and still break jacks.
>>
>>44881246
If they don't die.
>>
>>44880849
They be fine. Dark Shroud is amazing and WM is unneeded.

That said, I'd be thrilled if Thralls never saw the table ever again
>>
>>44880849
oh noes, would you cry like a babby troll?

bane Thralls would still be POW 13 thanks to dark shroud.
bane knights would still have reach and vengeance.

So they won't be able to one round colossals, heavies and chew through way more points worth of multiwounds?
>Oh diddums, you mean you would be forced to actually use your brain? That's terrible.
You might actually want to use warjacks for warjack jobs!!
>shocking !
>>
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>>44877583
>barrage of sprays

BEHOLD THE MIGHTY MECHANICAL WANG, PURVEYOR OF SPRAYS
WITNESS ITS TRIO OF SHINY METAL BALLS
>>
>>44881246
you forget that doom reavers are an elite unit of 6 dudes, and that they come with a drawback; they can berzerk into each other or end up out of command range.
They are powerful because of their drawback.

Remind what banes drawback is again?
Oh yeah that's right, they don't have one.
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>>44882752
That's one helluva dildo
>>
>>44880050
>remove weapon master from banes and errants

I don't think you understand how this game works because fucking mcthralls hit harder than errants.

Bane Thralls are effective pow 13 weapon masters in a faction with scything touch, parasite, crippling grasp, and a whole host of other shit like The Withering.

Errants are pow 9 and Menoth casters have basically no damage buffs for troops outside of Eye of Menoth and Ignite.

Comparing these two units like they're the same is probably the stupided possible parallel you could ever draw. Errants jam, they don't crack armor without a ton of help. And even then they're falling out of favor already outside of casters with d-ward and Harby.
>>
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>>44882756
>>
>Remind what banes drawback is again?
>Oh yeah that's right, they don't have one.
>>
>>44882862
Yes. Mechanithralls do hit harder than knights errant.
You know why? because mechanithralls are undead zombies with steam powered fists.

knights errants are dudes with swords, and as far as stats go a dude with a sword is pow9.

the difference between the two is that the mechanithrall has shit stats, but hits hard if it connects.
The knight errant has good stats, and knows how to actually wield that sword.
>>
>>44882721
Do Praetorian Swords have vengeance and side step. Do you ever see them?

Legionnaires have the same thing and more with Farilor. How often do they get taken?

Immortals, pow 13 vengence reach? Do they get played outside of pZaal tier?

And I wouldn't cry so much as shrug and move on to all the other units that people think are broken. Banes get nerfed and you are still going to cry when you get wrecked by Raiders. When those get nerfed you'll still get wrecked by blood witches and blackbanes. When those get nerfed, mechanithralls and fucking black ogruns. When those get nerfed, full pirate boat until it gets nerfed.

That's what it sounds like when people complain about Cryx.
>>
>>44882862
Oh there's more:
Errants need buffs compared to banes, because even if both units lost WM errants would lose out?

Errants have blessed crossbows. In addition to their other abilities.
Errants are supposed to be agile knights, not quite fully fledged knights exemplar.
They aren't supposed to hit hard, they are supposed to be a skirmish unit.

Banes are a dedicated combat unit.
Funnily enough, both units will do decent damage when they charge.
Oh what a surprise, it's like the game did it on purpose !
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>>44883058
raiders aren't undead, don't have stealth, they're typical high def infantry. Big deal.

black ogrun olololololololololololol
>>
>>44883086
Errants have ranged game and quick work. They're almost always 14/18 when you see them. Oh and no spells.

Errants murder banes by the bucket load too.
>>
>>44883058
all the things in your list see play.
so now that you missed your point?
>>
>>44883058
Praetorian swordsmen only have vengeance with one version of one caster, and only have side step with the UA as a granted ability. Immortals are slower than banes.
>>
>>44883192
Getting played with one caster is barely worth mentioning.

>>44883265
Immortals are speed 6 with an AG nearby.

>>44883161
But they're weapon master for a turn. *crying* Omg and they have reach. *wailing and gnashing of teeth*
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>>44883086
Literally all of these points are irrelevant to your argument. You can't compare WM on Banes with WM on errants because they're too completely different units, which you just explained yourself.

Banes are expendable and you only need a few to get to their target to end the game. Errants while somewhat self sufficient are still an expensive package and need even more additional support into them to do their job correctly.

Banes need WM because they are expected to dive in handfuls so each model has to be more powerful on average. Errants need WM because they require a ton of additional investment and need to still be able to carry their own point value and well as the additional point value you are investing into them while jamming where they won't be getting a charge bonus.

Your entire supposition is wrong and your argument is flawed.
>>
>>44883421

Which costs 3 points, and doesn't make them speed 6, it gives them +2 inches which is a pretty big difference.
>>
>>44883515
Which makes them as fast or faster then banes... Charge 9 or run 10. Same shit.

When you see immortals in pZaal he's gonna have AGs.
>>
>>44883577
No shit. You asked why they aren't used outside pZaal. And that's because they're slower than banes and outside of pZaal you aren't going to field AGs. See how that works?
>>
>>44883421
>>44883161
More importantly, Raiders are insanely fast with AD and straight up immune to the most common answer to high DEF infantry.

If they only jammed you in your deployment zone, they'd be worth taking, but it also turns out they're weaponmaster and straight up counter other jam units.
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>>44883619
Lot's of casters take Hakaar, and he's an AG.
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>>44883710
[citation needed]
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>>44883727
Savagery + Righteous Vengence
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>>44859569
>Molik Karn
>Replace Affinity [Makeda] with the following: While in Makeda’s battlegroup, Molik Karn gains +1 FURY.
>WHILE YOU'RE USING MAKEDA, MOLIK KARN GAINS +1 FURY

FUCK MY URETHRA WITH A RAKE GOD DAMN SON THE RICH GET RICHER
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>>44884357
It's just a fix for infinite molik karn. If anything its a "nerf".
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>>44884357
The fuck are you on about? It's a fix for the stupid Karn infinite attacks thing.
>>
>>44884406
>>44884469
For some reason I thought the affinity was that he got +1 threshold. Ignore me I suck huge dicks.
>>
>>44884406
Actually it's more of a buff. If you discount the stupid infini-karn trick, Karn being able to charge outside of Makeda's control area while still keeping his +1 FURY and being forced by a Willbreaker is a pretty big deal. I don't think it's a huge buff to skorne or anything but it makes the magic karn bullet more powerful than it was before.
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>>44884469
But it's also a buff for people who use molik karn outside of makeda's control area with a willbreaker.
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>>44880050
>remove weapon master from EE
please die and never spew this shit again
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>>44885315
not him but I agree with the idea that 10man and larger units should not have weapon master
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>>44885816
I agree with the idea that you are retarted and should stop talking about things you don't understand. Weapon master is the only reason to take EE. Let menoth have something.
>>
>>44886012
Blessed crossbow. No spells. Hunter. Pathfinder. Selfsac. Quickwork.

There are a lot of reasons to take errants.
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>>44886012
of course.
Blessed Crossbows, Immune to enemy spells, Pathfinder, AD, Ignoring forests ,concealment and cover and Self-Sacrifice are irrelevant.
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>Trade for a big ol pile of Stormblades/guard from a guy on Bartertown
>Package arrives, it is suspiciously small
>His idea of safe packaging for assembled models is wrapping a napkin around each one
>All of them are broken at the joints, and all the Stormguard halberds are broken at the blades

Whelp.
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