>>44840572 5e is the latest edition of D&D and is pretty damn easy to learn. Check out the general if you want, you can even download all the books (and most of the core rules are available as a free SRD as well). >>44831743
Lots of old school D&D fans hate it, but D&D 4e is probably one of the most newbie friendly games out there, for a certain style of play. Its rules are all clearly laid out, easy to understand and fun to use, and its DM's guide is one of the best books out there for supporting running a fantasy adventure game.
>>44841257 I have played it, and most of the abilities are combat related. I could just zone out and use abilities like I was doing a rotation in a Wow raid. It's not that hard to believe that Wizards was chasing the Wow audience during that time, is it?
>>44841257 >Except that's not true, and it's never been true. It's absolutely an accurate assessment of 4th's departure from traditional TTRPG mechanics. The cooldowns and ability reskins were cribbed directly from the MMO and MOBA genres.
Nope. There are no 'cooldowns', and I've honestly never seen anyone with a standard rotation.
If anything, the AEDU system is a more narrative bent of fantasy RPG. Your spammable abilities are your reliable standards that you use in every scene. You also have a few neat tricks you bust out once every scene. Why are they stronger than the at wills? Because you get access to them less often. Watch any TV fight scene, and the moves used more rarely are always stronger. This applies to the Daily abilities most of all, the tricks you only bust out once an episode but are always awesome.
3.5 is an RPG which had multiple videogames and MMOs actually based on it. 4e didn't, for all that people claim it was MMO inspired.
Except it really isn't that different? It's just less obfuscated, which is what makes it better for new players. Roles and so on still existed in 3.5, they were just concealed from the players and some classes had more than one while others had effectively none. 4e treats it players with respect, lays out the mechanics transparently and actually works properly out of the box, which is more than you can say for 3.5.
>>44841576 It's possible this guy never played with the improved monster math from the MM3 and Monster Vaults, meaning that fights turned into a long slogfest. -- Anyway, OP, DnD5e is an average game at best, and costs money.
Play Dungeon World instead. It's slightly above average, and all the rules are available freely here http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/ . It's a pretty rules-light game so it's easy to get started and make characters, the GM guidelines are great, and in general it teaches good habits to both players and GMs.
>>44841191 4e is pretty newbie friendly at low levels, though I really dislike how effect-heavy it gets at higher tiers. Eventually there's just so much to keep track of that it isn't fun for me anymore. 13th Age is probably more newbie-friendly than 4e.
>>44841437 D&D has had per encounter/per day abilities for ages, dude. 4e just used it as the standard method. This whole "it's an MMO" thing is the weakest possible argument against 4e. I don't even LIKE 4e, but come the fuck on.
>>44843703 I think you're damning it with the faintest of praise.
From what I've played, it seems to be designed so that you rarely sit in dead water. The rules support a cycle of cause and effect as long as you're rolling your dice. And each class sort of has their own tempo as to how that works. So if you enjoy rules light and have a good GM, it's fantastic.
>>44841087 This is such a dumb meme, I can't believe that you're still trying to perpetuate it.
I understand why, it's because you hate D&D and REAAAAAAALLY hate that it's popular, so you struggle to come up with a reason why people not only like it, but continue to play it.
Because you are a retard, the only explanation that you can come up with is "Hurr durr, I must be a genius, and all those people must be retarded, and they're only forcing themselves to play herpdederp."
Seriously, go fuck yourself, and stop pretending that just because you play a less popular game, you're somehow smarter than everyone who plays the game you don't like.
'Brain Damage' is an exaggeration, but there is a truth behind it. The assumptions and methods that 3.5 used became so vast and widespread that a significant number of people learned to roleplay in that way, to the point that they utterly cannot adapt when shown anything outside that framework. The way the game was designed and written did actively work against people finding it easy to integrate themselves into the rest of the hobby, possibly deliberately since the OGL tried to force D&D mechanics onto any setting regardless of whether they at all fit. People who've been affected in this way, and are either unable or unwilling to broaden their horizons, do come off as, well, broken to people who are more open to playing other games, utterly convinced there is only one way to play.
I'd also argue that 4e is more of a skirmish game than an RPG. I'm not saying that it's not possible to role play in it, but if any system is designed primarily around combat, 4e is definitely it. That said, all of the flavors of DnD put role playing in a back seat to mechanics, which is fine (I love the fuck out of 2e), but I don't think it's really good for new players because of this. I wouldn't push new players toward Shadow Run because of how crunchy it gets either and I love that system with all its flaws too.
I think it's gone out of flavor now, but really one of the best low fantasy systems for new players is Mouseguard.
>>44844628 >I'd also argue that 4e is more of a skirmish game than an RPG.
If this is true, then by wordcount about combat effects and non-combat things, then it is also true of both DnD3e and DnD5e. I still wouldn't recommend 4e to an RPG newbie, though, just because it's a very crunchy start to RPGs - and if you're not a pirate, a costly one.
Other good tabletop RPGs for beginners besides Dungeon World: Lady Blackbird http://www.onesevendesign.com/ladyblackbird/ is an all-in-one game/scenario that you can stretch out or do in a single session. Might be tougher for new GMs, though - requires heavy improvisation.
Warrior, Rogue, Mage is a nice light system. http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/ about being fantasy heroes. The name of the game refers to the stats - there are no classes.
Darker Dungeons http://www.gratisgames.webspace.virginmedia.com/extras.html is LITERALLY a slightly house-ruled BECMI DnD in a complete package. What that means is that it's a good DnD edition (the other one being 4e - the others are just average at best. Besides B/X I guess).
You're using a brand new usage of "truth", if that's the case. At best, you've got "misattributions" and "slander" behind it.
3.5 doesn't make anyone do anything. Players who can't adapt are not a result of 3.5 or anything inherent to that system, they just played that game because of its popularity.
Same goes with the powergamers, the casual gamers, and the other groups that people complain about that fall within the broad spectrum of "the majority of gamers", since that was the audience that 3.5 commanded.
What you need to realize is that what you're doing is not complaining about 3.5, but a particular group of players who happened to play 3.5 because of its popularity. That's it, really, and anything else you hope to propose as "truth" requires a bit more than steep logical leaps and personal anecdotes.
>>44844702 I never claimed it did. I'm just saying that the were intentionally put behind combat.The working better is exactly how it's more of a skirmish game and has that MMO feel. The class roles and intentional synergy behind them create that exact effect as well as the strong tie to battle maps (yes, they've been a thing in all of the editions, but you almost can't play 4e without them). 3.X was just "we can't do math" the system.
And calm down, I'm not saying any of this is bad. It's just a different direction. It's kind of like Fallout: Tactics compared to the other Fallout games. >>44844828 >If this is true, then by wordcount about combat effects and non-combat things, then it is also true of both DnD3e and DnD5e. Good god, why is it some people feel the need to come out of the woodwork when someone tries to talk about how 4e was different from other editions?
>>44844986 We have a couple of statements that are demonstrably true. 1. DnD4e has more out-of-combat word-count spent in its core books than both DnD3e and DnD5e. 2. DnD4e has combat that works better than either of its nearest siblings. 3. DnD4e requires a grid to be played, just like DnD3.5e, and much like DnD5e if you want to actually maintain balance and not have fights with AoE effects and flanking be a headache.
None of these magically make it MORE of a skirmish game than an RPG, not even in combination. -- Also, OP, http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/ Fate Core is a free RPG that's popular among some for its 'narrative' qualities and heroic genre emulation. You may also enjoy Fate Accelerated, a lighter version - I prefer how Fate Accelerated does Stunts (player powers) compared to Core, for example, and they're easily mixable.
>>44845773 I don't even know how 'ability reskins' are meant to be from a computer game. Computer games don't let you say "my magic missile is actually screaming skulls that I spit out of my mouth".
At-will powers have existed for a long while, daily powers have existed since the beginning of DnD, so the only thing with a 'cooldown' is the 'per encounter' powers... or should I say, "can be used x times per day"?
>>44845914 >I don't even know how 'ability reskins' are meant to be from a computer game. He's talking about how MOBAs sell people costumes for their character for real money, and how those costumes can totally change the theme of the character (so a mage can be some sort of robot dude with weird nano powers instead, for example).
> so the only thing with a 'cooldown' is the 'per encounter' powers... or should I say, "can be used x times per day"? Even that's not new to D&D Barbarian's rage did it first, as it was restricted both per encounter (only once) AND per day (based on level).
People are just bitchy salt-filled faggots about 4th Edition. Always have been, always will. There are plenty of real criticisms about the system (as there is with any), but they get drowned out by this old "4e is too much like a videogame, so I'd rather play the Edition of D&D that was used for World of Warcraft and Diablo."
>>44846001 >He's talking about how MOBAs sell people costumes for their character for real money, and how those costumes can totally change the theme of the character (so a mage can be some sort of robot dude with weird nano powers instead, for example).
Was that even a thing? LoL came out after 4e (it was in beta at the time IIRC) and DOTA2 wasn't even a thing yet. Did HoN do costumes? Or maybe some chinese MOBAs I don't know about.
Not that it matters, refluffing had been a thing in D&D for most of its life.
>>44846265 >Not that it matters, refluffing had been a thing in D&D for most of its life. Of course it has. Like I said, it's just incessant bitching that unfortunately drowns out actual useful criticisms.
>>44841300 4e just isn't apologetic or deceptive about being a game, like most video games. It's still a shitty argument, because if you're whining about class design too focused on combat, you better throw that same complaint at older editions or you may be actually, factually retarded.
>>44844208 I like 3.5. There are several things it does which no other edition does, and now that we have 4e and 5e you can make sure you're playing 3.5 because you want those positives. Things are good now, let go of your hate.
Want a balanced, more wargame like D&D, possibly because you enjoyed Final Fantasy Tactics? Play 4e.
Want a simpler game that is good all round and has no big weaknesses aside from its horrendous magic item system? Play 5e.
Want a game that has options to do pretty much anything without having to ask Mother May I? Play 3.5.
>>44851319 >Well 3e in general was made on the same philosophy as M:tG, unfortunately, while system mastery might be rewarding in CCGs, it sucks shit for RPGs. Pretty much this. It's very obvious that they were going for the common/uncommon/rare structure for feats and abilities, with there being a secret balance structure designed to reward system mastery. The only reason they backpedal and claim that this was an accident is because of the obvious backlash it produced.
If everyone would have loved the imbalance and encouragement towards this learnable design, they would have taken credit for it and claimed they saved the industry. But because of the freakout, they say it's an accident and start towards 4th and 5th Edition's game design tenets instead.
>>44840572 If by "a D&D type game", you mean "a fantasy RPG centering on action and adventure, with plenty of fighting", then I'd definitely recommend looking at Barbarians of Lemuria, which, while being a full-length game, is very much rules-light, and much simpler than any edition of D&D (and yes, that includes Basic).
>Barbarians of Lemuria,Mythic Edition (current edition) -- https://www.mediafire.com/folder/7llc83r2xf8bg/Barbarians_of_Lemuria_-_Mythic_Edition
>Barbarians of Lemuria, Legendary Edition (earlier edition, fewer details & more minimalist presentation makes it even easier to learn, but the rules aren't as refined) -- http://www.mediafire.com/download/p5w885sa9a869ma/Barbarians+Of+Lemuria+-+Legendary+Edition.pdf
>Barbarians of Lemuria, House Rules / Patches for Legendary Edition (if you want the increased minimalism of Legendary, but with the rules tightened up a bit) -- https://mega.co.nz/#F!CtQR2bST!y_awB-GHCiL3CdK4iLCV7A
>>44840643 >>44843829 I'm not familiar with RQ6 in specific, but previous versions of RQ were significantly more complicated than BRP, with separate hit points for each body location and so forth. If RQ6 carries on that tradition, I'd recommend a simpler example of the BRP family (for somebody who is specifically looking for an easy to learn game, anyway). Maybe BRP itself, or OpenQuest, which I'm lead to believe is a streamlined version of RQ. Stormbringer is pretty cool (and is also pared down) if you like the idea of role-playing in the world of Elric, and Magic World is supposed to be Stormbringer with serial numbers filed off (if you wanted Stormbringer minus its specific, Moorcockian setting).
>>44852944 >>44852986 If you want to stick within the official D&D family, then maybe look at either Moldvay Basic or 5e. Moldvay Basic is much more minimalist overall (128 pages total, including monsters and treasure and everything, and only 64 pages--covering levels 1 to 3--are needed to start playing), but is a bit ad hoc like all old school editions are (no central mechanic: attack and saving throws are d20, roll over; attribute checks are d20, roll under; thief skills are percentile, roll under; surprise is on a d6; etc.). 5e gives you significantly more character customization (mechanically speaking, anyway--the idea of Basic is that much of the game is determined through DM rulings and improvisation) and uses the universal d20 mechanic to streamline the system and make it easier to grasp. But 5e is still much more complicated than Basic D&D (and probably close to 10 times as long in terms of page count for the core rules), even if it's minimalist compared to it's immediate predecessors.
Swords & Wizardry White Box is maybe the most minimalist full-length D&D clone (check out White Box heroes if you want more classes for it), so that's also something to consider. Castles & Crusades is a step up in complexity from that (though definitely simpler than 5e), but uses the unified d20 mechanic, perhaps making the game more approachable (however, make sure to use the saving throw fix, adding only half a caster's level to their spell challenge level).
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