/cofd/ + /wod/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

So /WoD/ if there was a Century of humiliation as a dark ages book what line do you think it would be?

>>44838982
>Century of humiliation
What's that?

>>44839073

The Western (and Japanese) influence and colonization of China that lasted till the end of World War II. Off the tip of my head, I guess I'd say Geist could work, because Geist works best when there's cultural tensions going on since they're all about fusions and cultural blending. Demon could work too, as would Vampire and maybe even Beast.

>>44838891
>Monte Cook's World of Darkness
Why would you do this, OP? Don't remind me of that.

>>44838891
>What with Dark Eras being on everyone's minds, what strange times and places have you set chronicles in? When and where would you like to see one?
I will probably one day go back to my Nassau Sin-eaters setting. But I also want to see where Mummies will be in the next Sothic Turn.

>>44838891
For all the shit of it being d20, the overall setting for McWOD is not bad. And their ideas for Demons was pretty cool.

>>44839241

I kind of dig that the post apocalyptic wasteland is just smack dab in Middle America. The attempt at unifying the splats via possession/extradimensional spirits was pretty brave, but it's too bad the Hunter/Mortal analogue was so boring.

>>44839241
>>44839289
It's basically a weird oWoD Shadowrun. It's also unfortunately d20, where every supernatural is a different class (if I remember right). All of that is pretty bad.

Like, I hate the concept less now than I did when I first heard of it, but...
Maybe if it was in Cypher it would be better?

>>44839289
Yeah. The demons were neat though. Extradimensional entites stuck in physical objects that manifest into monsters. I had been kindof writing a fansplat called Celestial: The Banished, which was liberally cribbing from Angel Sanctuary.

>>44839360
Fuck my inability to form coherent sentences today.

I had been writing a fansplat called Celestial: The Banished, which focused on beings forced out of their celestial homes and becoming 'angels' and 'demons,' cribbing heavily from Angel Sanctuary and some other sources. And I thought the 'celestial things in physical objects = monstrous demons' was a neat concept and snagged it for the fansplat.

>>44839318

I'd be interested in a Cypher take on it. Write it up as a world for The Strange, it'd probably sell some copies.

Of course, you all realize that with the 5e OGL, Onyx Path could easily do McWoD 2e, if they weren't focusing solely on Scarred Lands and if Dracula willed it so.

Continuing from the last thread, I finally watched The Magicians on SyFy.

It was an ok pilot and might have some potential, but it's too early to tell. I also didn't get a Mage vibe. Except for the very end, the show was more mopey college kids getting high and laid with some background magic than real urban fantasy or horror. Hopefully, the ending signaled a shift in tone.

>>44838891

Pre-WWI Europe with a World of Darkness parallel - vamps stringing themselves up in an elaborate network of alliances that are a single tug away from a shadow war, woof clans once trampled climbing their way to prominence, limited socialist groups forced to turn into Hunter cells by circumstance and extension of ideology, Mages starting to scratch against some legit foundational cosmic truths, all the while Demons and Sin Eaters are preparing for something catastrophic to go down.

>>44839512

If it's anything like the book, it's more "asshole kid learns to not be an asshole at college but with magic" than anything else. They're poplit books with some urban fantasy in it, instead of the other way around. That said the later books lean more heavily on the magic. The show probably will too.

>>44839677

Are the books worth a read?

Reading their Wiki description, particularly of the later books, makes them seem like they're a weird blend of Beverly Hills 90210, Narnia and Harry Potter.

>>44839782

You'd probably dig them, and they're all considered good books. Read the first, see what you think, continue on if your interest holds up.

>>44838891
Does anyone know of, or have a link to, a good list of Masquerade Disciplines, particularly a list that might include the Mind's Eye Theatre versions of those powers? I'm specifically looking for a list that would have Level 6+ Disciplines.

Any help would be appreciated and awesome.

>>44838891
VtR in Monrovia, Liberia, just before the Civil War. It was a wild campaign.

>>44840041
Storytime?

>>44839943

No MET Disciplines, just VtM20, but there's this: http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/wod/vtm20/DisciplinesList.html

>>44840082
I have that and the fury link (which has all the expanded ones from other OWoD tabletop books). Thanks though.

>>44840071
It would be too long now. Suffice to say the Invictus were american-liberians while there were spooky native vampires - "crones" with wood Masks in the forests. The princess was also an ex slave when she was a mortal, and outlawed ghouls in the premises (because she found them an horrible reminder of her condition, and because her bloodline couldn't make blood ties).
We has our fair share of freak players: a mekhet lancea missionary, a nosferatu albino witch-child, an unhinged gangrel (that was fourth in line on the throne of the city) that lived in the slums with his huge ghoul dog... An asshole Daeva bartender that knew everything...
It was fun.

>>44840241

>An asshole Daeva bartender that knew everything...

It's the things you can find everywhere in the world that's the most comforting. For American Mortals, it's a McDonalds. For the Kindred, it's the asshole bartender that knows too much.

>>44840316
>For American Mortals, it's a McDonalds

Are you still living in the 1990's.

It's no longer McD's. It's now Starbucks.

>>44840316
True that. The funny shit was: the player was at his first experience with WOD. Never played masquerade, never played requiem. Nothing.
And yet he immediately and instinctively gravitated over this specific archetype once the setting was explained to him.
It's like he suddenly and intuitively understood the platonic form of the asshole kindred bartender and played it to a t.
It was uncanny. I showered him with exp.

>>44840367

Yes, actually. I have been trapped in a time loop between 1997-1999 that repeats every time Y2K causes the first nuclear missile to hit Paris. It is very inconvenient.

File: Disciplinas_Vampiro_7.8.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>44839943

>>44840438

>(c) Sniper Wolf Inc

What?

>>44840558
Metal Gear reference

>>44840438
Oooh.

And now to translate. Thank you kind anon.

>>44840367
Fucking shame the Japanese aren't letting anyone else but the Australians enjoy their MOS. Marginally (very, very marginally) healthier than McDonald's, but a hell of a lot tastier. Plus, you can actually finish a meal and leave the restaurant without feeling like your veins are filled with molten uranium for the rest of the day.

>>44840580

Oh. Dang, that's obvious in hindsight.

>>44838982
In a surprise to no-one, I'd run it with Werewolf. Boxer Rebellion, first railways, court politicking and ethnic unrest under the Manchu Qing all makes for some good content for Forsaken.

Does anyone have that oWoD pic where we see "stereotypical" rpg players? The one where the gm is sacrificing a rat and rolling bones instead of dice

>>44840615

Contrary to popular belief, America has many national and regional fast food restaurants and burger joints besides McD's, many of which are *significantly* tastier and healthier (although McD's French fries are the best, bar none)..

Damn, now I really have a urge for some Shake Shack or Five Guys...

BTW, can you even imagine what might be in fast food "meat" in the dark and scary CofD?

>>44840796

It's probably just regular old meat. It's the placing and number of the establishments themselves you should be worried about in CofD. Franchises? More like Infrastructures.

Now if you want some tainted meat served to a massive popularion, lemme tell you about a WoD villain named Pentex...

>>44840796
>Shake Shack or Five Guys

We have both of these in Britain too and they are a cancer all their own

>>44840796
I like Hardee's, known in some places as Carl's Jr.

Also, there was an episode of Buffy about that. And a section in Intruders: Encounters With The Abyss.

>>44840864
Five Guys is great. Although I will say that as much fries as they give you, I don't like them as much as the more processed kind. Sure, they're more "real", but I like puffy and crispy over straight from the potato.

>>44840864
>Shake Shack or Five Guys
>they are a cancer all their own

Such blasphemy and sacrilege would be considered hate speech and fighting words sufficient to justify lethal self-defense here in NYC.

>>44840906
>Doublemeat Palace
>no meat to be found in the meat

That was the funniest fucking thing.

>>44840856
>>44840864
>>44840695

Didn't Chris write some Werewolf setting stuff about CofD meat processing?

>>44841018
There's the Blood Farm in Shadows of the UK but I didn't write that.

>>44841018

Nah, he did the genetics lab thing.

>>44841152
And it was fabulous.

>>44841268

It was pretty great, yeah. Would pay for an SAS set there.

>>44841014
To remember what you were talking about, I ended up reading random links on the Buffyverse wiki instead of going to take a shower.

>>44841018
Not sure. I do remember a short story about some mages fighting a high rank spirit though.

>>44841065

I recall something you actually wrote on /wodg/ about a Pure lab or other similar facility, nondescript, mostly underground, lots of nasty fluids and spirits, ,,,???

>>44841065
That was Wood Ingham, and is actually the only case I'm aware of of someone's writing sample submission being used in a book.

>>44840906
>Five Guys is great. Although I will say that as much fries as they give you, I don't like them as much as the more processed kind. Sure, they're more "real", but I like puffy and crispy over straight from the potato.

I like Five Guy's fries, but McD's are in a class by themselves. I don't care if they add extra grease and lard and then season with the crushed bones of young orphans and the blood of innocent virgins, but McD's fries are an incomparable nation treasure.

>>44841493

Yea, I also recall Chris writing something on 4chan a few months ago about a secret evil genetics lab run by the Pure. I should have saved it.

>>44841591
Chris' Hive Claimed

>>44841018
>>44841065
>>44841493
>>44841591

After some searching, I believe I've found the thread with Chris' Ivory Claw genetic research facility

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/43586930/#43590069

>>44841691
Say what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr4knvNNgtU
What Rank would Hexxus be? I know the idea has been done to death, but I just wondered.

>>44841493
Yep, I wrote up an Ivory Claw facility on /wodg/ a few weeks back.

>>44841591
Well I also manage to wrangle my Hive-Claimed submission into Forsaken.

>>44841852
Probably three, at the least. It's strong enough to affect the real world pretty easily.

Are Hunters aware of what they are in the same way Vampires or any other splat are?

>>44842147
You mean Reckoning hunters? Because hunters on the Vigil are for the most part just really determined humans. Which I assume is a thing they're aware enough of.

>>44842225
So in game they wouldn't think of themselves as a Hunter (capital H) or that their efforts are a Vigil (capital V)?

>>44841983

You should add a little polish and "officially" release the Pure genetics lab as an extra story hook on the Werewolf blog (along with the Rite creation system you teased earlier). It would be a great addition to the Pure PC rules.

>>44842264

They probably wouldn't think of themselves in those terms before Tier 3, and then their terminology would probably be unique and different.

A mortal Hunter in the CofD is just a regular human, not a special species or anything similar that would warrant or require the capital "H."

What's your favorite Lodge and Legacy?

>>44842264

The Vigil is more of a metaphor for what they do, rather than an acual tangible thing. Hunter's might refer to what they do as a Vigil, and some of them might call themselves Hunters, bur for the most part they'll say things like "I'm a warrior for the Lord" or "I'm a Bounty Hunter" or "I'm a representative from Cheiron's Research and Development program".

>>44842264
>>44842225
>>44842360
>>44842461
Honestly, yes, I think that a lot of Hunters would consider themselves Hunters, and might also consider their whole schtick The Vigil. The setting descriptions seem to confirm this. It's also a really generic term. Or maybe the Vigil is a memetic virus.

See also: The way the term is used in Supernatural.

>>44842572
>Or maybe the Vigil is a memetic virus.

>the God Machine / Abyss / etc. instills all humans with the instinctive understanding of the Vigil, dormant in their minds until it is awakened when the darkness grows to deep and their candle ignites

You should play a game called Oxenfree /WoDg/, you'll like it

It's full of gay and tumblr shit, just like WoD

>>44842903

Although I believe most Hunters would not refer to themselves as something so unique. If they did, I imagine most of the A-list splats would then facetiously refer to them as Lunch, Snack, or most insultingly, Who?

>>44842903
Shh. The grown ups are talking.

>>44842989
I imagine most A-list splats would also call them Hunters. "Hunter" isn't a unique term, it's a generic one. It's the kind of term that comes to mind instantly.

>>44842572
>>44842721

Blech. That's the kind of stuff I hope Hunter 2e chucks or avoids. Reckoning does the whole "Hunter as identity and driven by mysterious forces" thing better, and that route leads to a much easier answer to the mystery of Slashers, where it's something like "Oh, it's just the Vigil gone wrong/horribly right" a la Waywards. I feel like Hunter should be a lot like Mortal in that there's no solid explanations or answers, only weirder mysteries.

>>44843049
But then what's the point of Mortal if hunter is just that but more?

>>44843009

Hunter with a capital "H" implies that most hunters are something other than mortal humans. I have no doubt other splats speak of "hunters," but except possibly in reference to members of their own kind, don't believe "hunters" are anything more than regular humans among many others, and certainly wouldn't warrant a special moniker or appellation.

>>44843049
>I hope Hunter 2e chucks a fan theory thrown out half-jokingly.
Hunter has always been an "identity". Hunters recognize others and use the term "Hunter" and "Vigil". Even at least "Compact" is used in-setting. More than that, Hunters ARE in some ways driven by mysterious forces, it's just that it's their own strength of Will as opposed to anything else.

Or occasionally the Will of God, the Blood of Satan, the power invested in them by the United States Government, or other powerful forces.

>>44843131
No it doesn't. You're thinking way to much about it.

>>44843148

When I mean "Mysterious Forces", I mean a single unified force, especially the whole "Vigil-as-memetic-virus" thing, which pops up on occasion in the books but tends to be a popular fan theory. All the other stuff's fine, it's just that specific kind of view I don't care for. I'll admit that I reacted a bit too strongly there.

>>44843073

To me, Mortal's open ended, focused more on reaction and survival. You might figure things out, you might not, but what's most important is you make it out alive. Hunter's more proactive and procedural. You've seen what's out there and not only are you going to figure out what's going on, you're going to make it go away. I think that's why some Mortal campaigns morph into Hunter campaigns when they get long enough: inevitably the Mortals are going to start looking for the weird shit before it gets then again, and that's when the Mortal group starts dipping their toe into becoming a Tier 1 cell.

Did anyone get to go to the Midwinter Gaming Convention? Apparently the Scion playtest went well, and there was a Werewolf MET playtest. There was also an Onyx Path panel, but it doesn't seem like there's anything earth shattering about that, or else it'd be on the blog.

>>44846910

You know, Until Dawn's plot is a pitch perfect WoD Mortals game. I forgot, which CofD 1e book(s) is the Wendigo in?

>>44847288
The only Wendigos I can remember off-hand are the Werewolf Lodge.

>>44847332

Really? I could have sworn there was at least one or two, maybe in Antagonists. Oh well, I can just whip one up in the CofD Horrors system.

>>44847714
Easily.
I assume there is one in Changeling somewhere, and if we want to acknowledge it's existence, there's always Beast.

>>44847765

>and if we want to acknowledge it's existence, there's always Beast.

...yeah, Namtaru or Eshmaki Predator. Say what you will about Beast (and people will), it's actually pretty easy to make a mythic monster with the Family/Hunter combo.

>>44848458

Beast could have been good, it's got better a X splat than mummy for example. Decree is absolutely vestigial.

But it's the other things that fucked it up, the tone of the game, the goal of the game, the powerlevel in conjunction with the intent etc...

>>44848569

As much as I like Mummy, I'm with you on the Decree. Cool fluff, occasionally it matters in terms of Pillar and some Utterances, but Guild ends up overshadowing everything else, and the default take seems to be "Oh a cool new power? Give it to the Sesha-Hebsu". I hope Mummy 2e gives Decree more oomph. The single part of your soul that survived the trials of Duat deserves some more love.

File: Sin-eater 2e chargen draft.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>44848569
>>44849111
Geist doesn't even get a good X-Splat. The X-splat is meaningless, and there is no Y or Z splat to speak of.

Also, is anyone still interested in this?

>>44849222

>there is no Y or Z splat to speak of.

Isn't the Y splat the Archetype? Or was that the X splat? I can't even remember, which...yeah that proves your point.

I'll give it a look over, but I might not be able to comment till later, just as a forewarning.

>>44849111
>Mummy 2e

That's funny.

I wouldn't hold my breadth. Mummy is still relatively new, and they've yet to release all the currently scheduled supplements. WW also hasn't even announced second editions for lines much older than Mummy such as Geist.

I would expect Mummy 2e around the next Sothic Turn.

>>44849222
Well, there's how you died, what motivates you to keep being ghostly, and whatever crew of badasses you make with your badass friends. It works well enough for me.

>>44849325

I'm well aware, I've just got my optimistic thinking cap on nice and tight. The line itself is done, all that's left are the unfulfilled stretch goals: the fiction anthology and Necropolis: Rio. Of course, the fiction anthology's been in Redlines for a year and Necropolis: Rio seems to be in development hell. I'm OK with the wait, though. I'd much prefer the 2es actually in development to come out than them working on Mummy 2e right away.

>>44849111

I'm currently trying to wrap my ahead around what I want to do with Decree for my own personal version of the game.

I'm thinking of scrapping it and pillars completely and either just let you pick a judge like changeling Kiths with powers based on their domain, making it much more "I serve one judge and uphold his law" or creating conceptually interesting 'outside' powers to deal with. Or just make up Shan'Iatu that are as weird as the Deceived ones.

Other options are, putting a lot more power into Decree or making guild the X-splat.

>>44849222
Yay my group and I are still interested in the geist 2E. In fact we have been using the changes as fast as we get new info.

>>44849454
>>44849325

I wouldn't like a Mummy 2e too soon.

Not because it wouldn't be awesome, but because the line needs to ferment a bit more. They need to figure out what the good parts are and what the bad parts are and that only happens with a bit of hindsight.

That being said, they should definitely focus on the themes in Dreams of Avarice and Book of the Deceived.

>>44849502

Keep the Pillar system if you can, just because I have a feeling that forgoing them without a solid backup might break the game in unexpected ways. I think a Decree-less game is possible, though, and you're on the right track. Judges are attached to Pillars anyways, so having them choose a Judge first kills two birds with one stone. About the only thing you'd need to do is figure out how to distribute the bonus dots the Decrees give, but that could be solved by just presenting the bonus dot choices independently. Maybe organized by Guild instead of Decree? Could work.

Have you read Dreams of Avarice yet? Before you start thinking about how to make the Shan'Iatu more weird, there are things you should know about them.

>>44849556

I agree on both counts. I think we're starting to get a good grasp of what works in Mummy and what doesn't, but a bit more time to mull things over can't hurt. I think the next edition needs to be way more open about what kind of game it is, and absolutely needs to infuse more themes and material from Dreams of Avarice and Book of the Deceived. And for heaven's sake, the Book of Judges should see the light of day next time around.

While I'm at it, here's how I'd do the Mummy setting in short:

The theme is forced servitude, you've got the Arisen as the Herald to a big bad Cosmic Horror Judge. They have power, but none of their own, though they may think they do.

You've got two forces (well, three) out there that can actually touch an Arisen. Ammut, who is dead set on loosening the grip of the Shan'Iatu on Duat (and eat the world). So Shuanksen go out and spread knowledge of Irem and Sekhem around to disrupt the rites that power Duat and weaken its base. If Duat is shaken enough, she can eat Arisen's true name (which is kept in Duat) through the cracks and claim him/her as a Shuanksen too.

Then there's Fate, which powers the Deceived. It too wants Arisen for its own purposes and uses them as its pawns. It too can get a hold of Arisen's True Name and whisk it away to places unknown at the right time for its plans to unfold. This allows Arisen to suddenly wake up somewhere in the middle of Russia during the egyptian period without having traveled there. This allows Mummies to be culturally diverse but still be fundamentally Iremite/Egyptian. I'd make Fate more of an entity I guess.

I'm thinking over time, the Iremite philosophy gets plastered over with 'more recent' mythology and you have Arisen that incorporate Russian folklore into their Utterances and aesthetic, or Arisen of Tezcatlipoca who are really into human sacrificing. The Judges and Iremite setting are still there, it's just under a new thin coat of paint.

I'd also focus more on the Stars, that the true face of the Scroll of ages (in A'aru) is reflected imperfectly in star-patterns, if you study the rise and fall of stars you can learn Utterances and discern Fate's plans. There's also the horrible Lovecraftian shit that inhabits the darkness between the stars that are royally pissed about the whole 'removing you from the heavens shit' and are out to get revenge on the Shan'Iatu's pet projects.

>>44849872

The Arisen's task would be threefold, besides "RETURN THE SLAB!" they'd also have to enforce the strange laws of the judges more. This could be a reason for starting a Descent. Some of this is stopping the spread of Iremite language and Sorcery, because the Shan'Iatu are greedy fucks that want nobody messing with their turf.

The third would be serve as Proxies for the Greater Entities the Shan’Iatu bargained with to achieve their place in Duat. The Deceived book mentions they dealth with tose very same Star-spawn, maybe their Arisen completing certain tasks was part of that. They'd also need to fulfill the duties the Shan’Iatu were sent to do. (continue the chain of slavery) Fulfill the goals of the Judges in this world, alter the world to suit the their whims.

>>44849818

Pillars are a bit of a problem because they're so integral to the lore of the game but don't serve much of a purpose besides limiting your Utterance selection and boosting some stats. I was thinking I could just make a pool and name it Pillars, without the internal divide.

I have read dreams of Avarice, but I still don't have a clear picture of what the Shan'Iatu's thing is. Book of the Deceived and Dreams of Avarice contradict each other a bit, imho. (I can't recall exactly how because I'm pretty tired)

>>44849872

I can dig that. Fate being more of an entity is a nice touch.

>>44850036

I'd also make the guilds either a clear cut, "look we're making this shit up as we go along" type of thing where the Arisen basically invented the way they work.

Or I'd make the guilds about how they enact the will of the Judges (and make the arisen scary horror villains):
Mesen-Nebu: Unleash Sekhem through change. This can be improving people or things, this can also be Tzimisce-esque 'I made you a horrible monster, you're better now'.

Tef-Aahbi: Sekhem through patterns. They're the ones creating city-wide circuitry, huge statues or just strange mathematical formulas that drive people mad. Building structures and statues to channel Ley-lnies etc...

Su-menent: Sekhem through conservation and death. Ghosts, zombies, Poetic deaths and Hannibal-esque tableaux of murder. They either preserve corpses and give dignified burials or fuck with the line between life and death.

Now come the two I have a bit of trouble with:
Sesha-Hebsu: my first thoguht was 'the true name of things' but then you're stepping on the Deceived's toes. You also can't have them solely be judges and executioners, because that's all Arisen's things now. My current lnie of thought is that where Deceived are about freedom of expression and creativity, the Scribes would be about nailing all aspects of something down and then being able to fuck with those aspects or even erase someone from existence (like the Utterance in Guildhalls)

Maa-Kep: Then there's these fuckers, who are even more schizophrenic than the Sesha-Hebsu. They're Engravers, no wait, they're spies and the secret police, no wait they create amulets, no wait they're managers of people. What they did changed a lot between the various supplements. My issue with them is, all the Arisen are supposed to be sorcerers of some kind, what special magic does engraving give that cannot be done by the Sesha-Hebsu's magic writing?

>>44850504

Just checked my notes on the guild-horror thing:

"Sesha-Hebsu: Judges and Writers (The horror is in text, words that infect and want to escape, Glyphs that will not leave your mind.) Infectious writing.
Mesen-Nebu: Alchemists (The horror is in the transformation. Want to improve you and objects to reveal a hidden truth. Body-horror, flesh-crafters, equations.) The horrible Change.
Tef-Aahbi: Constructs an buildings revealing the hidden pattersns of the universe, unleash the Elder beings bit by bit."

>>44850111

That could be worth a shot. Pillar points have enough difficulty to get back that the economy should still function. Maybe have max amount of Pillar points be limited by Sekhem, too?

>>44850577
>>44850504
>>44850036
>>44849872

Sorry for dumping my thoughts here but I was just excited about a bit of Mummy talk.

>>44850622

That's a pretty good suggestion, I was thinking of doing something like 1/3 of the pillar points would function like Decree pillars. But that would probably leave people frustrated at the arbitrariness.

Limiting the number of pillars by Sekhem solves that handily.

>>44849548
Sweet. Be sure to keep me up to date.

>>44850648

Don't be sorry, this is some good stuff! I'm a bit iffy on Fate empowering the Decieved as opposed to them controlling it, and I think the Guilds do work as the half-remembered jobs of the Arisen (though the horror angle and how they unleash their Sekhem? That's good stuff), but I think you've got some great ideas overall. Arisen being awoken to enforce laws as much as "go get that vessel" is something that I think the game absolutely needs.

>>44851223

Well, Fate already uses the Deceived as its agents. Deceived's apotheosis is basically trading having a crazy Temakh riding around in your head for Fate. This can interpreted as them coming to terms with their role in the world and thus acting out Fate or them becoming Fate's puppet (like an actor submits to a director). I favour the second one, myself.

The main reason I put Fate up there is primarily because I needed something that could snatch Arisen up and put them on different continents without them having moved there, as a justification for why there were Arisen in China or something so they could absorb the culture and fundamentally become a 'Chinese' Mummy.

That being said, Fate already is a big presence in both the core book and the book of the Deceived, I thought I might be able to expand upon that role.

>>44851366

Ah, OK. I had the idea that you were seeing Fate as more of an antagonist, whereas I'd like it to be a bit more neutral, but I think we're both actually on the same wavelength, more or less.

>>44851601

Yeah, Fate is an outside force from the whole Ammut -Shan'Iatu - Judges clusterfuck. It has plans for the universe and the Arisen happen to be perfect agents to accomplish that. It's very much Neutral and guides the Arisen to Utterances, places and situations that work to advance its plan. It doesn't give one iota about what the Shan'Iatu and Judges want.

What it does work against is Ammut, because Fate has plans for the universe and doesn't want to see it destroyed and because Ammut can steal Arisen's True Name, thus depriving Fate of agents. So anything that helps Arisen beat the shit out of Shuanksen will be provided by Fate.

I was thinking of tying Fate to the bright stars, or the concept of stars since the Deceived are already pretty star-themed. But that might be pushing the "stars you guys, so awesome" thing too much.

>>44851049
Sure. By the way its was my player that contacted you about the 2E Geist update in the first place, back in I think November. So really I got to thank you for all your work.

>>44851891
Was it?

I've been working on and off on it for a year, but it hasn't really been until recently that I started DOING something with it. It's hard. I think I've actually expanded my original concept of just what a 2e version would mean from just updating the mechanics to completely overhauling the system.

I'm admittedly a little unsure if it matters, but since I doubt Geist will be on the table until GenCon, and won't get released until probably 2018, assuming I finish eventually it'll at least have some time to get played. And hey, if it gives the official team some ideas or they want to hire me that's good, too. Plus like one guy said it's good practice. Not entirely sure what practice it would be for, other than getting freelancing from OPP themselves, but working on something is always good. So is writing, and doing mechanics.

Although on that note I really should expand the games I like... jeez, I like so few games.

>>44851983
Well there was a time you stopped updating Geist. It was my player that contacted you about the hole thing which you then started up the google doc some months back.

>>44852097
Yeah, it's good. You should thank them for me.

Also for reference I'm currently working on Psyche, though I might switch over to Synergy instead, since I have a better grasp on what Synergy does.

I've been way out of the loop, what is Chronicles of Darkness?

Also is Dark Eras shipping soon? I was a backer

>>44851983

Yeah, it's good writing practice, and mechanic practice. Most importantly, it'll help you follow through on your projects. You can have all the ideas and talent in the world, but the most important aspect of any creative is discipline.

By the by, your character creation document isn't bad so far. Some messy writing, and I think I've got some mechanical problems with it, but I'll need to give it a few more reads before I have anything more detailed to share.

>>44851742

Nah, I think that's fine. Folks have been associating the stars with the concept of Fate for years, so it's not like there isn't precedent.

>>44852148
Oddly enough that player is playing a Mage. He contacted you for my other player, who does not lurk these threads.

>>44852166
>Chronicles of Darkness
White Wolf is now a thing, with all remaining White Wolf properties bought from CCP by Paradox Interactive. Dracula (Lead Storyteller of White Wolf and the guy who modeled for Dracula in V20, hence the nickname because no on can be bothered to remember his real name) is an avid old World of Darkness player and LARPer, and wants to have One World of Darkness. So basically Onyx Path changed "World of Darkness" (usually called new World of Darkness) to Chronicles of Darkness, to differentiate it from "Classic World of Darkness" (now called World of Darkness).

He also wants to double down on the metaplot, with player interaction in the LARPS shaping things (and making the LARP more eurocentric, so sucks to be American) and has plans for video games and Netflix shows and all sorts of EU content. And possibly trying to sue people like Jim Butcher or The Secret World.

You're also why I still put /wodg/ in the thread name.

>Dark Eras shipping soon?
No, probably not. It's still getting art. If you're a Backer, you probably know more than anyone else.

>>44852233
Tell me about the mechanical problems. Or the writing problems, but frankly I've got more than enough people to help with that, it's mechanics help that's rarer, since it can only come from people who understand WoD well.

>>44852254
Hah. Still.

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Explodes are silly as fuck.

>>44852166

Chronicles of Darkness is simply a re-branding of the new World of Darkness to prevent confusion with the Classic World of Darkness.

The new Chronicles of Darkness book is just the second edition corebook. It's the update to the original corebook, with the God Machine Chronicles setting and rules material, plus a few extra rules and extrasl, including a monster creation system.

Lastly, Dark Eras is shipping "soon." Unfortunately, "soon" can mean withing a few weeks to months or years.

>>44852276

Why are you rolling 28 dice tho?

>>44852276

I fucking love exploding dice.

>>44852268

I'll make a note to focus on the mechanical problems, then. You're gonna have to wait, though, cause I want to make sure I'm not barking up a wrong tree when I criticize.

For reference, Dracula's name is Martin Ericsson. Not only was he Dracula in V20, he used to work at CCP for the cancelled World of Darkness MMO.

>>44852277

If I remember right, the main Dark Eras book has its art being done, and the Dark Eras Companion is in Editing.

>>44852277

From the latest Monday Meeting notes:


Dark Eras – Art in progress. Got sketches in from a couple of artists already.
Dark Eras Companion – Still sorting through that buy.

If the art is still in sketches, expect it have finalized art in a month, then another month for the whole editing/approval process.

I'd estimate it gets sent out in March or April.

>>44852377
Stacking modifiers from many different sources.

>>44852438
Those cap out at 5, you know

Huh. Looking at someone else's Geist homebrew, I'm not the first to think of giving 2e Geists "Passions" that serve as Aspirations.

>>44852445
Even assist rolls?

>>44852445
Wait, do they? got a source on that?

Actually, they seem to be using a lot of the ideas I had. But they came a lot earlier...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qB-KCdwuN6-qTwTj09k5VpCWh96oLH15EvnZOYXrh7Q/
Although they also use things I don't care for, like manifesting Geists.

>>44852592
Somewhere in the core.

>>44852589
Assist? You mean Teamwork? That I don't know about. Teamwork is barely touched upon in WoD.

>>44852615
Hay quick question how do you plan to change Momentos, if at all?

>>44852615
there's a bit that states that modifiers from equipment and situation shit get no bigger than a +/- 5 but it doesn't specify that there's any kind of maximum.

>>44852692
Probably make them more in line with Fetishes/Tokens/Artifacts. In other words get rid of the different types and make them all one type. Or just make it so that they're more fuzzy, as opposed to a different type of Memento at each dot level.

I will say I love Deathmasks, though. My Sin-eater character on F-list has one that takes the shape of a terrifying witch's hat, that looks similar to the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter. They're also my favourite thing to come up with. I have another for the sin-eater I played in a crossover that was a scarf used to strangle the Geist that is worn like the Call of Duty Ghosts mask, and I had one Sin-eater I made just for shits and giggles who had a gauntlet Deathmask.

I vaguely recall having a Deathmask version of the Keystone from that one Sin-eater, too, but I don't remember what it was.

I want Deathmasks to feel more like that. Like Sin-eater armour, as opposed to specifically facemasks. Although with the way that I've refluffed Keystones (and Geister), I'm a bit unsure how to handle it. I mean, I don't come out and explicitly say "it's different now", but the Keystone write up says the Keystone should be relevant to the Sin-eater's death, not the Geist's. And I'm taking a bit of emphasis off of the idea that Geister wander around between Sin-eaters.

I'm allowing Sin-eaters to have a longer life, and Sin-eaters and Geist who are dead-dead probably don't hang around in the Underworld.

>>44852856
Well I do like the idea of that. I think I would miss how momentos worked from 1E it was different from other items merits.

Also a pitch for death masks how about giving influence of some sort

>>44852992
Geist don't have Influence, though.

Also, Deathmasks kind of makes me want to think of a bunch of small powers that a Geist could have, to better work with the Deathmask concept. If you have a Deathmask, you have the Geist's special ability.

Not sure how to handle that with the Threshold Blessings, though.

What is it like when a Demon meets another Demon for the first time? How do they learn that the other is the same as them? I've been looking over the corebook and the new ST's guide but can't really find out much on this interaction and how it takes place. Do they just drop hints until one of them decides to let the cat out of the bag? How do Demon's locate one another?

>>44853695
They don't. Generally if they do, it comes through an Agency, or when one of them fucks up (see the opening fiction), which is a good reason for them to be suspicious that other Demons are actually Angels in disguise. Though presumably after becoming a Ring you're less suspicious. After all it's unlikely that the God-Machine is sending an angel to destroy Infrastructure with you for some long con. Unless they're trying to take down the whole agency? Who's been feeding them information? Have they been providing too much information? Is the God-Machine simply giving you weak, unnecessary Infrastructure to keep you away from what really matters? What if your Ringmates have been replaced? Would you even be able to tell the difference? What if their Covers got stolen and they're being kept in a cell that feeds their memories directly to the Angel?

>>44849872
>Arisen
>Arisen
I'm sorry, I have to do this.

Ahem.

GOBLINS ILL LIKE FIRE!
WOLVES HUNT IN PACKS!
THERE MAY BE AUGHT HERE!

>>44853779
Covers don't get stolen.
You could contract them out; it's how my true-form-specialist keeps a steady supply of loudburners, but you can't just have one... yoinked.

An angel THAT creative...
Not anymore, he ain't, say hello to your new comrade.

And yes, he comes with his OWN cover

I think I've realized why Beasts can't do jack and/or shit to Demons. It's because when they beasts are confronted with the True and unrelenting nature of the G-M and their place in relation to it, their powers kind of fizzle out.

>>44853779
In that case, how do new demons come into contact with agencies then?

>>44853987
Pretty sure they can. Covers can be traded, and the actual contract itself needs to be kept secret and safe. Plus, Demons are said to be suspicious of other Demons because they might be Angels.

>>44854002
What are you talking about? They can affect Demons pretty much as well as anything else.
As an aside, it's so dumb that Beasts don't have a connection to Demons. I mean, none of the supernatural stuff is at all related in any reasonable way. The original Beast draft concept of "we're all related" just doesn't work. At all. So either they should go with a version where the Horror-as-it-was is the source of all supernatural shit--with Pangaeans and the Dragons being representations of that Ur form--or you go with the more reasonable version that seems to be what the current draft is using (at least judging from the bit about Nightmares) where every supernatural entity is reflected in the Primordial Dream as something that humanity might be afraid of or dreaming about.

But the way Demons are treated doesn't work with either of those. In the first, then Demons reasonably shouldn't be the only one that Beasts see as "not cousins", because clearly other supernaturals aren't connected to the Horrors and the Primordial nature of things. Prometheans certainly shouldn't be, and neither should psychics. Even Mages would be more like someone driving your brother's car.

If everything is reflected through the Primordial Dream, then Demons should obviously be there because clearly Abrahamic (and other) Mythology is influenced by the God-Machine, since it's been around since ancient times. They'd be as much Cousins as anything else because they would clearly have some sort of reflection in the collective unconscious.

>>44854030
Agencies would clearly be on the lookout for fuck ups and Unchained Falling.

Thoughts on this bit from a "sidebar"?

>While it can be tempting for Storytellers to take over playing the geist of a player who isn’t suitably treating them as a different character, keep in mind that while the sin-eater and geist are mentally distinct, and there should be internal conflict between the two, they do not have to have an inherently antagonistic relationship. Geister are also conscious enough to understand the consequences of their actions, and are unlikely to put their hosts in too great a danger or shake up their lives too much.
>The trouble, of course, is in the disagreements about what that means. A geist who hates a sin-eater’s girlfriend may try to break them up. It may even be the best thing to do; even if the sin-eater disagrees, despite the abusive nature of the relationship. These kind of internal conflicts between what’s right and what’s comfortable that a normal person might face are perfect for Geist: The Sin-eaters, with the geist representing a (mentally) externalized point of view.

>>44854401
I do agree that the relationship between the Geist and the Bound shouldn't solely antagonistic, otherwise the union wouldn't have formed in the first place. Other than that, though, the relationship can run the gamut from "bros-before-hoes" to "barely on speaking terms." The one game of Geist I got to play, my character's Geist was intended to really only care about completing its mission, which was to deliver impersonal death from afar. Which meant it could be counted on to be very helpful when something needed sniped and pretty much uninterested in anything else. Trying to get info or advice or an emotion out of it that wasn't cold indifference was like pulling teeth.

>>44840794
>you'll never have thai cuissine

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>>44854540
I know at least two people who like playing Geists who are better people than their Sin-eaters, who are shitheads bordering on Slashers.

Here's the full draft.

For reference, here's what Passions are:

>Passions
>The thing that a Geist came back for. It functions as an Aspiration, and grants a Dead Beat. When the Geist takes over, they follow their Passion as best they can, and the desire to do so is often what causes them to try taking control in the first place.
>For the Passion, choose two traits on par with a Vice or Virtue, like a Mortal character. Whenever the character fulfills that Anchor, as with a Vice, they take a Dead Beat as if they had fulfilled their own Aspiration. These Passions should be something related to the Geist’s death or mortal life, and the reason that they not only became a ghost, but such a powerful rank three ghost. “Avenge my death” is a poor Passion, while “avenge the dead” is better.
>Keep in mind as well that many geister have a strong desire to live again so that they can feel the pleasures of life. A geist that simply wants to gorge itself on the finest foods, bed attractive partners, or have their new life reaffirmed through masochism isn’t unheard of. Geister are also capable of evolving and changing, even if they’re dead, and so the Storyteller should feel comfortable allowing or suggesting changes to the Geist’s Passion during play.
Man, I really need to rewrite that.

I think that Beasts are able to make Kinship Nightmares with most supernaturals is because nearly everything is connected to the collective soul of the universe. Like, even things from alien worlds are still connected in some way in a distant place somewhere out in the Animus Mundi.

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>>44838891
>What with Dark Eras being on everyone's minds, what strange times and places have you set chronicles in? When and where would you like to see one?

1950's Las Vegas. The mob turning a desert resort town into the biggest den of sin and vice and profit west of the Mississippi, set to the backdrop of mushroom clouds on the horizon so the Reds know we mean business.

>>44839782
>>44839677
I read the first book and totaly disliked it.

Everybody is an asshole, soem are spinless assholes. The few good people end very badly due to being good people. I understand that it reflects real life but seeing them for a big part of the book with not knowing what to do and having no purpose is extremely annoying.

>>44854878
That was exactly how I felt about it too.

>>44854784
It actually says exactly that.

>>44854845
Any excuse to link Idea Channel
https://youtu.be/MySO7UBTlbI

>>44852268
Video games? Netflix shows?! I'll believe it when I see it, buddy.

>>44854845
Didn't someone post their ideas for Changeling Vegas last thread?

>>44854988
Hey, you're right!
It was me..

>>44855060
That's good to know, seriously, 1950s Changeling Vegas sounds like a cool idea. especially with the concept behind the four Courts.

I also came up with a law pun for the courts, here it is:
>No matter how mundane the people who enforce the Vegas laws actually are, the Court of Swords will be involved with them, somehow, the other Courts call this Swords Law.

>>44855106
>pun
I don't get it.

>>44855131
>Swords Law=Sods Law
I don't know why I try sometimes.

>>44855146
I have never heard of Sods Law. I had to Google it.

>>44855060
repost it m8 I'm interested

>>44855185
Mostly it's that I like the idea of Changelings being the dominant force in a town with such strong ties to luck and fate and dreams. There would be four courts, one for each card suit. So the Court of Clubs, Spades, Hearts, and Diamonds, each tying into some facet of the Vegas strip.

Some other anons suggested also utilizing the tarot card suits with their respective symbolism.

>>44855146
That's obscure even for me, and there are like six references in my Sin-eater write up.

Also, yesterday I suggested people watch Ink, Lo, and briefly, the Man From Earth. Someone asked if I had any more recommendations, but I'd basically gone to sleep at that point.

Haven't seen it yet myself, but I'm going to suggest The Frame, also by Kiowa and Jamin Winan, same as Ink.
https://youtu.be/QUm04OmjZMA
https://youtu.be/RXh8ARkkwAo
It's got great ratings on Rotten Tomatoes and sites like Film School Rejects.

Heck, just poke around the DoubleEdgeFilms Youtube page for goodies like this short: https://youtu.be/oP59tQf_njc
Clearly about an Acanthus trying to do right, or maybe a Guardian using a bit of Infrastructure or a Gadget.

Also, I haven't gotten around to watching it yet, but someone on Imgur made this POV thriller movie using a headrig camera.
https://youtu.be/45O-GAi0gNw

Biting Elbows is actually trying to get a full length movie based on the concept of a first person movie. https://youtu.be/wv33e0TyL6M
And it straight up looks like a video game that you can't play. https://youtu.be/UMnURHXFhuE
I love the feel of it when he explains"use grenades". It really feels like watching a friend play a video game better than you could.
HARDCORE is also based off of their music videos The Stampede and Bad Motherfucker.
https://youtu.be/QYm-dT24iRY
https://youtu.be/Rgox84KE7iY
Trying to retrieve a Gadget from a Deva Corp subsidiary maybe?

>>44855333
thanks.

watching Ink now will watch the rest of your recomendations after it.

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>>44842264
>>44842147
>>44843148

Our ST has "The Vigil" be some type of universal code word used to establish common ground. It's like baseball caps and wide pants in the hip hop scene, something that unites otherwise disparate groups under one banner. It was quite useful because our group is horrendously clumsy and one of our guys was close to getting the frontliners wiped by pissing off TFV.

>>44854569
>Man, I really need to rewrite that.
Yet you never will. Too busy arguing and being suicidal, am I right? :)

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Worst. Arcadian Gate. Ever.

>>44852592
>>44852445
I thought it was that each individual modifier capped at 5...
Because if total caps at 5, you should never try hard (i.e. spend Willpower) when using good equipment, or have help from others.

>>44852445
>>44856883
It's only modifiers from individual sources that cap at +/- 5. So you can use a computer with a +4 and cracking software for a total +6 to decoding something, or something along those lines.
I still want to know how you got a total of at least +18 to your roll. Like, what specifically you were doing, how many dice you had, and what you were getting modifiers for.

>>44852268
>And possibly trying to sue people like Jim Butcher or The Secret World.

What.

>>44856987
Might be a vampire.
For example: 4 strength, 4 Brawl, 3 Vigor, All Out, and Willpower expenditure, is 16 dice.
If xe is in Frenzy, then we add Blood Potency (let's say 3), and punch out fully with Physical Intensity to bring it to 25.

It's a bit short, but it's in the ballpark, at least. Might add fighting styles, specialisations, or suchlike.

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>>44857049
During the Youtube video (I think Tanebrae Noctus?) they talk about how some people have been profiting off their work and "too inspired" by World of Darkness. The whole thing reminded me of file related.

>>44857340
>some people have been profiting off their work
That's rich, considering they're planning to profit off of old White Wolf/Onyx Path's work, now.

>>44855333
that loveraft short is neat.
Thanks for linking it.

>>44854100
Actually even if you steal the contract, the most you could do is destroy it. However, this only prevents a 'pending' uncollected soul-annihilation.

Once the person's existence has been vaporized, that won't save them.

You can hijack an angel's cover, but doing so annihilates the angel's formation.

"Stealing" a Demon's is also most likely "looting the scrap" at best, and not something you can just filch off a functional one.

if you can trick it into giving you one, you could get it, though, but don't forget that soul deals require complete truthfullness: There's nothing more trustworthy than a Demon negotiating the terms of a contract (and if you aren't a demon, you're not the one writing it up and it's you that's about to lose something!)

With you on the beast thing though. That stuff was thought out very badly.

A good pair of reasons why Demons and Beasts could have not gotten along would be as such (and obviously, that ain't what was in either draft):

Demons generally cherish the things in their covers, attempting to be as human and connected to people as possible - because this maximizes and slowly improves the effectiveness of the cover. Beasts thrive (in fact literally survive) off being the horrible life-rattling (or life-ruining or life-shattering) thing in the dark that leaves you with horrid nightmares.

In other words, beasts destroy things around the area they're hunting in, either causing dangerous levels of scrutiny (when the cops start investigating everything about everyone because a kid got disappeared) or destroying what might be bits of cover (that building you lived on the 13th floor of burnt down).

>>44857340
>The Infringing Work
>45. Defendants Sony Pictures, Lakeshore and Screen gems recently announced the upcoming release of Underworld - a major motion picture set in a dark, gothic-punk world.

Got this far.

This story doesn't have a happy ending for our plucky underdog heroes, does it.

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So fun session last night. Game is a low powered VtM game where the players are Hunters from HH2. It's set in a cyberpunk dystopia in 2078 where augments are common place, and there's cyber zombies. Takes place in New York where the cyber zombies have gotten so bad from the recent war that there's quarantine zones against them where the police don't patrol.
Party:
Half Vampire boxer
Holy crusader with True Faith
CEO playboy of an augment company

>Party needs to get into the locked building where they were attacked earlier to look for leads
>None of them have Larceny so they can't pick the lock
>Some shady guy tells him he can get them in for a price
>They go into the sewers and are told to keep real quiet
>CEO has augments and is carrying the immune suppressor drug on him
>Cyberzombies are tuned to that smell
>They fail their stealth checks
>Two augs attack them
I should mention that cyber zombies come from people not being able to pay for the drug and/or people with no soul left because of having too many augments. There was a large scale war against China a decade too, so there is a bunch of augmented veteran that are the latter.
>One of the zombies is a normal guy with a few augments
>Other is a decked out former soldier
>Fight breaks out and the boxer gets leveled fast
>They change target and go for the CEO because drug on him
>Fight goes on for minutes in game time before the CEO gets knocked out and almost killed
>Crusader is getting shit rolls
>Boxer is getting shit rolls
>Fucking soldier aug is getting nothing but amazing rolls
>Not talking a few lucky ones, but literally a couple hundred rolls with only 1-2 bad ones
>Players finally take out the other aug and even 2 v 1 the soldier is more than a match
>Crusader is only able to stop him because he has fucking True Faith
>Finally get a lucky blow in and they drop him
>Party went from full health, Willpower, and Blood points to no willpower and nearly no health and no blood
>mfw

>>44856639

About the only thing keeping them from being full on Keepers is that they take their religion (at least in the original story) very seriously.

>>44857570

Sony gave White Wolf a settlement, and it is rumored that this settlement allowed them to survive long enough to get bought by CCP.

>>44857610
Sweet, I like have my expectations subverted.

>>44854100
So to a Demon, who's trying to keep his turf as ... placid as possible regarding the kinds of thing that would get hundreds of Anonymous pointing incongruities in its cover directly to The Machine, this is an unacceptable existence.

Likewise, your chosen hunting grounds are hiding within it a nightmare-resistant oft-emotionless (as you'll find out) killbot who is definitely NOT a fan of your work ethics and may very well decide to physically invade your dreamspace and missile your dungeon heart.


As for beasts specifically would go "not cousins", if their powers still are anything like the drafts I've read, a lot of it should be what in other systems would have an [Emotion] keyword/tag to it. It's how you insinuate yourself into that werewolf coterie or vampire pack. You're manipulating things into feeling you're like them. Demons *choose* how they feel from a dropdown menu, to the point where even they aren't always certain if they actually have feelings at all. So "I'm your friend, LOL, you're totally okay with that little whoopsie I just did to that gymnasium of orphans!" doesn't get "OH, YOU" and a noogie with demons. And you don't LIKE things you can't mind control.


but obviously, that's not how things got written.

>>44857379
https://youtu.be/LlA6LKUNDWs?t=1684
28:04 if you watch it embedded.

They do talk a little earlier about how they want to get in touch with the Project Vaulderie guys, and how they prefer to talk to these kind of people instead of letting the lawyers handle it, but the tone of this bit I've linked just feels like he wants to go sueing the creators of Dresden Files, The Secret World, Teen Wolf, and Vampire Diaries.

The original Vampire Diaries books, by the way, were published in 1991-1992. Also, in Googling that to find out when the publishing date was, I learned that the creator signed a work-for-hire contract, doesn't own the rights to her own series, and after getting fired she started writing fan fiction of her own work. Crazy.

>>44857570
It was settled out of court, which usually means "fine, here's some money, leave us alone" regardless of whether or not the defendant agrees to the damages. But as I often point out, there's no mention of White Wolf Publishing on any of the several Underworld sequels, even though there was trouble getting the wrestler Gangrel into wrestling games because his name is technically licensed.

Also, remember that this was at a time when White Wolf wasn't an underdog. At one point they were second only to D&D.

>>44857610
This would have been at least two years before White Wolf and CCP ever even thought about getting together. White Wolf wasn't bought out, either. They MERGED. For a while, White Wolf and CCP were the same company. Not bought out, not a subsidiary, the same company. That just turned out to be a terrible idea.

And under CCP, White Wolf didn't even do too bad at first. Remember, Onyx Path didn't come onto the scene until 2012.

I mean, I would believe it if I had solid evidence, but I don't think they were doing too bad in 2004.

>>44857705
>It was settled out of court, which usually means "fine, here's some money, leave us alone" regardless of whether or not the defendant agrees to the damages.

The last page demands a trial by jury. I guess Law & Order made me forget that mot people on jury duty are going to get this stupid shit, not murderers and mob bosses

>>44857591
>It's set in a cyberpunk dystopia in 2078 where augments are common place, and there's cyber zombies
This would be much better if it was VtR. But interesting nonetheless.
Although, man, I'm torn. I kinda hate the concept of Shadowrun's cyberzombies as an extension of "cybernetics eat your soul", but after that one mission in Dragonfall... that was pretty awesome.

>>44857569
Are you sure about all that? I mean, I got the impression you could use someone else's contract, provided you had the physical thing.

Also, my problem with the Demon/Beast thing is that you don't really need any reasons for people to be wary of Beasts, because everyone would feel the same way about them that you just listed. A Beast inherently has to get over the fact that people will see them as either an abusive pervert or a freaky Peeping Tom, jerking off to High Satiety by watching them gather Aether or Mana or Essence.

The Demon/Beast relationship of "we're not related" just feels forced as presented.

>>44857660
I don't really understand why there would be incongruities. I mean, Beasts aren't always just dickbag jerkoffs (especially not with Family Dinner) and even if they are, a Demon could just point it at things they don't like. (same as befriending a werewolf).

Demons also don't choose their emotions, just how they display them. And Beasts don't instantly make you like them, they just have a default Social Manipulation level of "let's hear this guy out". It's a foot in the door, nothing more.

The problem is also less about how the Demon feels about the Beast (whether they get along or not, the whole point of Beast is family resemblances) and more how the Beast feels about the Demon. You don't have to *like* your cousins to be related. But Beasts outright say "we're not related" for... some reason, which I detailed the problems with upthread.

>>44857705

>White Wolf wasn't bought out, either. They MERGED.

The nicer version of being bought out to be sure, but let's be real here: that merger was for the WoD IP only, and was probably less of a hassle than a full IP buyout or licensing.

>And under CCP, White Wolf didn't even do too bad at first. Remember, Onyx Path didn't come onto the scene until 2012.

After a significant slowdown of new material, the cancellation of EVE: Genesis, and trying to see if the publishing market would recover quickly. Things may not have been apocalypticly bad, but Onyx Path eschewed the suppliment treadmill for a reason, and the New World of Darkness didn't just arise as a creative decision.

>>44857885
Yes, but from 2004 to 2009, White Wolf was still churning out material. They weren't really in bad straights in 2004 when this lawsuit came, and it wasn't until further down the line when the CCP merger when bad for them.

If anything hurt them, it was using Scribendi.com.

>>44852615
Teamwork is 'roll the dice pool; each success you get is a dice to the main actor, if you get a dramatic failure they get a -4 as you fuck shit up, ST decides the limit of assistants'.

>>44858088
I know what Teamwork is. There just aren't many Teamwork rules.

Frankly I wish Hunter's Tactics were a core mechanic. If CofD had been how I wish it was, it would have been, but c'est la vie. Can't always get what you want.

>>44857340
To be fair, the whole thing was pretty much a rip of a vampire-werewolf love short story that WW had published.

Additionally, the 'not WoD' MMO continues to use WoD-specific terminology all over their website and documents. They haven't quite scraped enough stuff off to be actually not infringing.

>>44858133
I know. That's literally the teamwork rules, broken down from the 1e core.

>>44858167
No, not to be fair. Almost every example there is something White Wolf either stole from someone else (mostly Anne Rice, but also Romeo and Juliet) and something anyone could have come to on their own (like stealing from Anne Rice AND Romeo and Juliet). I mean, if you go through the list it's stuff like "we describe our vampires as pretty, they describe their vampires as pretty" "Our vampires wear leather, their vampires wear leather".

>>44858225
And you would agree that those "aren't many" rules...? This feels like one of those "same page, different paragraph" things.

>>44858260
Except it is. White Wolf has a legal right to protect their IP, but they also have to be able to prove that something is infringing on their IP. Just 'having vampires' or 'our vampires are pretty' is not enough. But 'they used the term Kindred, and organized their vampires into five organizations and two of the covenants are pagan vs. Catholic blood wizards' is, as well as just flat-out using the material WW owns.

It's why the Project Vaulderie people got C&Ded, because they were flat-out using something WW IP had been licensed to make (character models, etc. from Bloodlines), and why in this instance Sony probably settled so as not to delay the release of Underworld (which was likely more coincidental than many examples of IP infringement WW has dealt with, but the time in court would have cost them more than just settling out of court, like they did).

They can't sue something just because it has vampires or werewolves, but they have a legal obligation to look at something that they see that is a direct pull from their IP, ESPECIALLY if it's something that someone casually familiar with WoD can look at and go 'Oh, this is the new <thing>?'. In this instance, there was a WW-published story that was, essentially, a similar enough plot to Underworld for them to NEED to do it, from a legal standpoint. Because if they don't, then down the road, when, say, that not-WoD MMO uses their terms and such, WW would have less of a leg to stand on because they did not defend their IP in previous instances.

>>44858435
I'm aware of how the law works. But what I am saying is that this was clearly NOT a case of copyright infringement, as none of the listed things are White Wolf's creation, they're all generic traits of any similar work being listed to strengthen the few likely coincidental similarities. Even then, "inspiration" isn't actually against the law, and really neither is ripping something off, hence the Mascot Wars in 90s video games.

Project Vaulderie also likely could have continued passed their Cease and Desist (which is not in any way legally binding, and is essentially a threat) but being a small group of fans would have been dead in the water if CCP did follow through with the threat. It's also worth noting that Vaulderie's group actually had permission from CCP to begin with, which isn't even something that they needed. If they had equal financial footing, it's likely that Vaulderie would have fallen under the transformative works coverage of the Fair Use clause.

> In this instance, there was a WW-published story that was, essentially, a similar enough plot to Underworld for them to NEED to do it, from a legal standpoint.
It was also a WW published story based on a public domain work and just as--or more--inspired by Anne Rice's work. I almost wish that Anne Rice had slapped White Wolf with a lawsuit after this. It really is a case of complaining someone is ripping off your rip off.

>>44858642

>But what I am saying is that this was clearly NOT a case of copyright infringement, as none of the listed things are White Wolf's creation, they're all generic traits of any similar work being listed to strengthen the few likely coincidental similarities.

You have to defend it anyway. You cannot risk letting things slide, because you don't want to set any kind of precident.

>It was also a WW published story based on a public domain work and just as--or more--inspired by Anne Rice's work. I almost wish that Anne Rice had slapped White Wolf with a lawsuit after this. It really is a case of complaining someone is ripping off your rip off.

You got proof for that? Have you actually read "The Love of Monsters" by Nancy A. Collins? Who inspired what doesn't matter for shit, what matters is that the IP is legally registered. Besides, by the time of the lawsuit the WoD and the world of Anne Rice are now quite different. You've read Anne Rice books to see for yourself, right?

Yes, the lawsuit seems silly to us now. But let's not go pretending that it was totally frivolous.

>>44858642
If you understand how the law works, then you should understand why they have to legally deal with it, to avoid a precedent.

As far as Anne Rice and WW, even looking at VtM1e, you can see the inspiration -- but there's just that. There isn't much 1-for-1 or even a .5-to-1 direct comparison, not enough to discuss legal precedent. Her vampires are much the same, as far as vampires go -- which was drawn from a lot of sources just like most vampire stories -- but there's not much else that is one for one or close enough to be considerable.

>>44858998
It seemed silly at the time as well. I understand the importance of defending copyright.

I also understand when someone is making claims that hold no ground. Again, read through the suit. Almost every one of the complaints is unsubstantiated. Even within the document you can see them reaching at descriptors, and drawing from other aspects of the World of Darkness instead of solely The Love of Monsters.

>>44859311
Again, I'm aware of the need to defend copyrights. But Underworld has as many (or less) similarities to Masquerade or Apocalypse as the World of Darkness does to The Vampire Chronicles.

Anne Rice would have been in as much position to sue White Wolf as White Wolf was suing Sony.

>>44857846
No, everything I remember reading the contract sections (it's been a month since I last played Demon: holidays and whatnot), you want to get your hands on a contract to DESTROY it, which often screws the demon out of "delicious new cover just waiting for me to call on it" (though if your wish was "I want 10000 a week for life", well, that's over too)but it's not like you can change the terms or whatever on there.

>>44859446
True, if you could change the contracts then "Okay but I get that time you were fired from McDonalds" would all too often become "Your Soul" which really wrecks things.

*However*, Demons can trade covers with each-other. I guess this would also be contracts, with "you give me this(or did this for me) you get this part now"?

If nothing else they'll have to be completely honest with each-other in negotiating it, so they'll probably never screw oneanother... not on that particular interaction anyways

>>44859516
>>44859446
It's the trading that makes me think you can steal a contract. I mean, when it talks about destroying the contract, it feels more like it's describing what a person who sold their soul can do to stop it from being collected. If they can be traded, it's not unreasonable that they could be stolen.

>>44859720
They can steal the contract physically (this won't help if they don't destroy it right away) to prevent it from continuing; this is how they keep from being ret-goned. But stealing the physical contract doesn't "make it yours".

like, if you steal a contract from a demon somehow, this doesn't mean you now own that person's existence or the new car they traded their life for. you may be able to use it for leverage against either side, but that contract is promising "Bill's" "soul" to "Mr.Orangerine", and everything involved (including reality itself) knows you're neither.

It's like if you'd picked up a copy of a bill between your neighbor and verizon.

Unless it's a transfer pact, where the beneficiary is left as a space for a demon to fill its name in, so that the creator can trade it away.

>>44859361

There are just enough similarities in the whole batch to make it worth pursuing. That's the whole point. Angling for a settlement with so many segments like that was probably White Wolf's ultimate goal anyways: it makes you look like you're defending your IP, no drawn out court fees, and after a lawyer's fee, you have the cash you desperately need to survive.

>>44860605
Look, at this point all I can really say is that I disagree with you. I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I am aware of the laws, and even if White Wolf was simply aggressively protecting their copyright, there are better targets; Vampire: The Undeath, for instance. Anyone familiar with Vampire the Masquerade and Underworld will be able to see only superficial similarities, and these cases are intentionally difficult to prove. If White Wolf truly felt they were owed credit and the similarities were worth pursuing, then it's unlikely they would have settled out of court.

>>44861042

It's actually very likely. Angling for a settlement's a risky but typical move for IP defense and/or IP trolling. You have to hope your opponent doesn't want to raise the stakes, and in this case it worked. You can't win against Sony without an airtight case, but you can get a nice check from them.

Undeath should have gotten a C&D from CCP, but luckily that fell apart before it could turn into a mess. I don't think for a moment that White Wolf's going after Jim Butcher and The Secret World, but I could see them going after that one not-WoD MMO. We'll probably start seeing tighter legal stuff once Dracula gets the multi-media train going. It probably shouldn't affect tabletop fan projects.

File: newlin-lol.gif (499KB, 300x198px) Image search: [Google]

499KB, 300x198px

>>44861329
The big reason they have to go after Project Dogmat is because they're using their terminology and implied setup ALL OVER THEIR WEBSITE.

>Vampire: Undeath
OH GOD MYKAL LAKIM AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH I HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF THAT IN FOREVER.

>>44861494

Project Dogma, that's it's name! Wait seriously? All over their website? What's the deal with Project Dogma anyways, the Kickstarter made it seem it's a fork of the original WoD MMO project and it had Mark Rein Hagen's seal of approval, of all things.

Also Vampire: Undeath was amazing because it did that WoD knockoff thing where they try to preview the other lines that are totally going to happen any day now. One day I'm going to have to pick up that one Wizard of Oz WoD knockoff game and show it to the world, if it's still at my game shop.

>>44861661
They use the term Kindred and some other stuff in all their blog posts. AFAIK, they're modeling their MMO stuff on the same visuals (down to recreating stuff from the Alpha MMO screenshots) but it's not the same code.

Also, apparently the dude has his Vampire: Undeath books up on Scribd. For actual sale. I feel bad for the poor schmuck.

>>44861788

Holy shit you're right: http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/163951573/Vampire-Undeath-Corebook

Jesus fuck it's even more of a ripoff than I imagined. Copied the basic page layout of a 1e nWoD corebook, but made it WORSE somehow.

>>44861873
>>44861788
I love reviews like this:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15765.phtml
FATAL and Friends may be the only thing worthwhile about SA, but it doesn't seem they've done one on V:U.

>>44840954
Amen. Let me grab my bat and we will hunt down this anon down.

http://www.dark-phoenix-publishing.com/
Good gods. They even have the "Lonely Road" project.
They are truly a ripoff.
And can't do web design either.

>>44861946
There used to be a lot of screenshots and stuff from Mykal defending his product, and referening his 'legal team'. It was the stuff of legend.

And it's not just his writing. He's snagged art and did terrible photoshop edits without crediting or getting permission or PAYING for them (one of his covers is a Halloween Express costume art with a skull pasted onto it, and their logo is some deviant artist's tattoo design she did for a paying customer).

>>44861980

He already lives in the culinary wasteland of Britain while we enjoy the ample delicacies found throughout our city.

No need for violence against that ignorant and taste-deprived anon. The Mad Cow Disease will likely end his pitiful existence without any need for our intervention.

Only a few more hours til we find out what stage of progress Mage 2e is in.....

>>44862171
I'm aware of all that.

He's basically the RPG version of Digital Homicide.

>>44862143
Is Lonely Road a reference I should get? I'm surprised he's got so much stuff. Does anyone even play this game? It's been around since 2011 or so, hasn't it?

>>44862245
And see if it's worth holding off my Mage game for a few weeks for it to come out

>>44862288

Lonely Road = Onyx Path, I assume.

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/196180041/Cherche-Sourcebook

Fucking look at this graphic design. Look at it!

>>44862245

A good bet is that Mage will yet again be waiting for Paradox approval and in layout.

Dracula is too busy LARPing to rubber stamp the damn book.

>>44862245
>Only a few more hours til we find out what stage of progress Mage 2e is in.....

When does that post get.. eh.. posted?

>>44862288

Also, there's an ad for a fan club in this preview of a book that's Literally The Cappodecians: http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/226052513/Obia-Sourcebook

>>44862396
8-12 est?

>>44862766
I think you should keep it a 1-10, and just make a mention that the higher/lower you go, the closer you are to life/death.
Like how Werewolf2e did it.

>>44862766

Good lord, no! Either separate the scales, or make it a 1-10 with Life and Death at the top and bottom, with two subtle coloring shades behind the Death and Life levels, with 5 being a mix of both.

>>44863141
>>44863303
I did that at first, but then I typed the words "at High Synergy" and realized how stupid and unintuitive it was that "High" Synergy was bad.

Also, just a reminder of my ideas, when you're at 0 on the Life side, you're Vacant, and at 0 on the Death side, you're Wretched. My rules for Vacant are probably going to be that you don't have access to most of your Geist stuff or Manifestations, but do have access to your innate abilities (including not being able to turn off your Ghost Sight, but not having any way to deal with it), and you're treated as if you had Integrity 2 until you can regain your Geist.

For the Wretched, the Geist is always in control, which means they follow the Passions as if they were Vices (so they're more likely to fuck things up) and have to deal with the incomprehensible but constant screaming voice of the sin-eater.

When you're Wretched or Vacant, your Synergy also locks at 0 until you can get rid of the Condition associated with each.

I'm also going to have certain things that ALWAYS shift towards 5. Sin-eater and Geist agreeing on something, for instance. Or maybe resolving a ghost.

>>44863317
I thought that the vacant happen when a sin-eater losses his geist some how.
Also for the geist's passion how about the sin-eater gets a bonus to resist the geist when he closer to life. And a penalty thr closer he is to death half of things.

How are sleepwalkers going to work in Mage 2e? Are the low magic users (i.e. ceremonial magicians, shamans, witches, and etc.) going to be sleepwalkers (which is how I always went with in my first edition nwod mage games)?

P.S. Any idea on how close 2e is until it releases?

>>44862766
>http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15765.phtml
Why does Life have a zero state and Death not?

>>44863317

Why not just use something like "Influenced by Life/Influenced by Death/Perfect Synergy"? You could even get some Conditions out of the deal.

>>44863694
Sleepwalkers are anyone with supernatural powers, so yes, all of those people are Sleepwalkers.

The only people who AREN'T Sleepwalkers are Mages and full-blown normal mortals.

>>44863694
Well from the spoilers for mage sleepwalkers while can't perform magic as the norm. They can help with rituals that mage cast and even be vantras. If I recall correctly.

>>44863892
>>44863906

Do the humans who are called sleepwalkers get any powers along with being able to assist mages?

>>44864030
No, they're soleinteresting feature is that they can be killed by vulgar magic and have no defence against it

>>44864030
No clue. They have not revealed any stats for them yet. Just one of the many things we have to wait for Mage 2E. But it is said that sleepwalkers will be comparable to ghouls and wolfblooded.

What do you call a massive piece of Infrastructure beneath late 19th century London that would require the blood of millions be spilled by Frankensteinian pig-cyborgs to change the history of the 20th century?

>>44863906
>>44864030
Not exactly. But anyone who has some inherent magical powers (like psychic powers, for instance) also counts as a Sleepwalker.

>>44864111
No, the Mage equivalent of those two are the Proximi.

>>44864128

A surprisingly boring game. But in COFD terms, a Concealment/Defense/Logistics Infrastructure based around a very important Command and Control Infrastructure.

>>44864128
>Mundus' Player: Psssh, those new Integrity rules are all over the place. I'm sure I could break them easily~

>>44864156
Ture anything thats not just mortal is a sleepwalker. But I am sure that there going to be sleepwalker only merits much like wolfblooded.
And no proximi are like revenants as said by dave here.

http://theonyxpath.com/supporting-cast-mage-the-awakening/
I have been trying to tell my player this as well but he is a dense as a wall. And once he has an idea in his head he will think that it is right and ignore evidence to the contrary. Much like a mage.

So. Mage makes it quite clear that scientists are more likely to Awaken because they seek the truth of things... But there are other people who do the same, but are complete nutjobs. How about conspiracy theorists who disclaim any facts which don't fit their worldview, yet zealously dig for "truth". Are they more or less likely to Awaken than normal people?

>>44864304

If you search hard enough for truth, you're going to find it if you manage to trip over the Supernal. Scientists, religious mystics, conspiracy theorists, all could be more likely to Awaken. Of course, given the difficulty of becoming aware of the Supernal long enough to complete the Awakening, they get like a .00050001% chance to awaken compared to someone else's .0005%.

>>44864281

>Proximi

>The third section is about the Proximi; Awakening‘s equivalent not to ghouls (that’s Sleepwalkers) but to revenants. Proximi are Sleepwalkers (and may take Sleepwalker-only Merits) that are have Supernal powers, drawing from one of the five known Realms. Some Proximi are born spontaneously, but most come from long family lines of magical heritage called Dynasties, protected, nurtured, and employed by one of the Orders.

>Mechanically, a Proxius’ dynasty manifests as the ability to buy spells from up to two Arcana as Merits on a dot-for-dot basis, and a pair of Conditions representing the dynasty’s family Curse. Each Curse comes in two forms – a permenant, troublesome, but not dangerous Condition and a much more severe, temporary version. Proximi cast their spells (called Blessings) using their Willpower as a dice pool, and as they use Integrity rather than Wisdom they can’t try to contain Paradox as damage like a proper mage can. Nor can their Blessings go truly haywire; instead of the usual effects of Paradox, even a single Paradox success cancels the entire Blessing and imposes the severe version of the Proximus’ Curse. Any attempt to get around, circumnavigate, or mitigate the effects of the permanent version of the Curse also imposes the severe version.

>>44863694
Low magic users whose powers actually work are all Sleepwalkers, yes. Anyone who has a supernatural power or Merit representing an internal ability (as opposed to owning a piece of magical equipment) is a Sleepwalker on top of whatever they may be as well - all Supernatural beings with power stats, like vampires, are Sleepwalkers. Many types of Hunter, like the Lucifuge, are Sleepwalkers (though many more, like Task Force Valkyrie, aren't *necessarily*). Every last sclub who has a dot of telekinesis is a Sleepwalker.

Proximi Dynasties are a minor template, like, say "ghoul", who are all Sleepwalkers (because they're supernatural) and can buy set spell lists of Mage spells they can cast with limited ability as Merits.

So, 2e's supporting cast Appendix, where Vampire has the ghoul chapter and Werewolf has the Wolfblooded, first talks about Sleepers, then Sleepwalkers, then Proximi.

>>44864030

If they have a power, they count as a Sleepwalker. Being a Sleepwalker without any other powers is available as a one dot Supernatural Merit - but if you have anything else that makes you a Sleepwalker, you don't need it.

Within the setting, how many Sleepwalkers who aren't counted as such because they're actually Stigmatics, or Wolfblooded, or Sin-Eaters, or whatever and who still have powers there are compared to how many Sleepwalkers have "can remember spells and don't suffer the Sleeping Curse" as the sole supernaturally interesting thing about them is deliberately nebulous.

>>44864304

Many mages-to-be come across as absolute nutjobs while they're thrashing themselves Awake, especially Obrimos.

>>44865154
Does being Cursed make you count as magical enough to be a sleepwalker or is it just that "definite knowledge of the circumstances of your eventual death" a "piece of magical equipment?"

>>44865267

Not a power, just shit that been's done to you. Some schlub a Thyrsus has turned into a frog doesn't magically transform into a Sleepwalker either.

There's a deliberately-fuzzy line - someone a vampire has blood bonded? Sleeper. Ghouls? Sleepwalkers.

>>44865391
I meant the supernatural merit Cursed from the core book.

>>44865420

Just looked it up, aaaaaand... I'd still say no. Judgement call by the ST, though.

I am unwilling to provide a complete "yes or no" list, as it would go out of date virtually every time a new CofD book is published.

>>44855333
I watched Lo. Loved it, but called the ending.

>>44864819
>The third section is about the Proximi; Awakening‘s equivalent not to ghouls (that’s Sleepwalkers)
Can ghouls still learn Disciplines and super-heal and whatever in 2e? Because if so, I think Proximi are still the equivalent to Ghouls.

Mage doesn't really HAVE an equivalent to Revenants.

>>44865548
>Can ghouls still learn Disciplines and super-heal and whatever in 2e? Because if so, I think Proximi are still the equivalent to Ghouls.
>Mage doesn't really HAVE an equivalent to Revenants.
Ghouls=Proximi
Revenants=Sleepwalkers

>>44865548
>Mage doesn't really HAVE an equivalent to Revenants.

Some types of liches would make a good literal parallel.

I asked some people today who have never played a table top RPG (they are big into vidya) if they wanted to be part of my Mage 2e campaign and they said yes but mostly out of a curiousity for table top, not because of Mage particularly.

How would you guys pitch Mage to someone who doesn't know what it is quickly and succinctly? Hard mode: no comparisons to other works of media like Constantine or whatever.

I think I lost them when I started explaining the setting with Atlantis and the Exarchs. I want to tell them what the World of Darkness is but without getting bogged down in a bunch of mythology.

>>44865934
>How would you guys pitch Mage to someone who doesn't know what it is quickly and succinctly? Hard mode: no comparisons to other works of media like Constantine or whatever.
>I think I lost them when I started explaining the setting with Atlantis and the Exarchs. I want to tell them what the World of Darkness is but without getting bogged down in a bunch of mythology.
Don't tell them about the setting. Sell them on it via the casting system and creative thaumaturgy. The setting is extra background info after they're hooked on the "I can cast ANYTHING I CAN IMAGINE" part.

That and Atlantis and the Exarchs are fundamentally unimportant to most Mage games. It's literally just background/window dressing/the reason why one of several badguy factions does badguy things.

>>44865934
Start with the genre. Mystery horror. Two words. Then go into detail from there. Sperging out on the minutiae of the setting is the worst possible thing you can do to get a newbie hooked. Mage is about playing wizards who see the secret truth of the world (mention Plato or gnosticism if your prospective players are likely to be familiar, otherwise don't), are constantly bombarded with all the weird and scary things the world has to offer when you don't look away, get addicted to mysteries, and chase them down obsessively.

>>44865934
>>44865997
If they're big into vidja, that's TWICE the reason to use the casting system to sell them on the game. Narrative freedom and a world that reacts to what you do is the main selling point tabletop RPGs have over video game RPGs. Even the most robust video game about being a wizard is going to pale in comparison to the kind of shit you can do in Mage, simply because a computer can't be prepared to adjudicate a spell you just thought up five seconds ago, while a GM can.

Are they big into Deus Ex or Fallout or any other RPGs that sell themselves on giving you multiple ways to solve problems? Mage is all about that kind of flexibility. All tabletop RPGs are, but Mage in particular focuses on creative application of a toolbox the game gives you.

>>44865997
>Don't tell them about the setting. Sell them on it via the casting system and creative thaumaturgy. The setting is extra background info after they're hooked on the "I can cast ANYTHING I CAN IMAGINE" part.

I did that, but they want to know about the setting and how different it is to, say D&D which they are familiar with.

One girl wants to be a magical girl and I told her moon tiara magic was a forces spell.

>>44866020

I fucked up pretty bad because I completely forgot to mention that it was a horror game. Someone brought up Madoka in regards to magical girls and I dismissed it as being silly, though now that I should have hammered it home that it'd have been closer to Madoka than Sailor Moon.

>>44865250
>Many mages-to-be come across as absolute nutjobs while they're thrashing themselves Awake, especially Obrimos.

Hey, it's not easy going from the blissful ignorance of Sleep to entering Heaven and learning the very secrets of God himself.

BTW, is there any notable Path "racism" or supremacist ideas in mage society? Do mages of particular Paths formally associate with one another in a manner similar to Order caucuses?
Also, can a mage be an apprentice of someone from a different Path?

>>44865997
>>44866042
No. Oh god, don't try to start with "you have magic and can do anything". That's for later on. The narrative freedom aspect is a good selling point if they already like vidya, but that's a selling point that applies to literally any TTRPG, even if Mage banks on it especially. Specific mechanical points of interest are for hooking people who are already into RPGs and looking to try something out.

>>44866065
>I did that, but they want to know about the setting and how different it is to, say D&D which they are familiar with.
It's a real-world-but with monsters horror game. Done. Mechanically, being a Mage is different from being a D&D Wizard because a Wizard prepares his spells ahead of time and picks them from a list. Mages tend to cast shit on the fly (though they get benefits for preparing shit ahead of time), and don't cast from a list. They cast whatever the player can think up.

>>44866096
That's what hooked me, my group, and everyone I know who wasn't already into RPGs who got into Mage, and for all of us the pitch started with that, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

>>44866070
>BTW, is there any notable Path "racism" or supremacist ideas in mage society?
What, like "Obrimos are inherently better than Mastigos" or something? I doubt it.

>Do mages of particular Paths formally associate with one another in a manner similar to Order caucuses?
Not usually, aside from a sense of cameraderie over having been exposed to the same sorts of Truths.

>Also, can a mage be an apprentice of someone from a different Path?
Sure, although it's somewhat difficult. The perspective granted by the different Paths are very different, especially with 2e's changes to Mage Sight. Doesn't stop it from happening, though. I remember an Actual Play over on RPGnet where the Obrimos PC was Mentored by a Mastigos.

>>44866070
>>44866263
>is there any notable Path "racism" or supremacist ideas in mage society?

Not really, although every mage knows you can never trust those mastigos, acanthus always cheat at cards, and moros never smell quite right...

>Do mages of particular Paths formally associate with one another in a manner similar to Order caucuses?

I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't, but it probably depends on the particular mages in the region and consilium culture.

>Also, can a mage be an apprentice of someone from a different Path?

I would imagine that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. The perspectives, supernal "filters" (mage sight) and inherent abilities are just too different. A mage of another Path could certainly be an Order mentor, friend or patron, but actually magically training a new mage would almost certainly prove to be more trouble that it's worth.

>>44866263
>What, like "Obrimos are inherently better than Mastigos" or something? I doubt it.

Obrimos are all fanatics, Mastigos are evil liars, Acanthus are flighty and untrustworthy, Moros are creepy, and Thyrsus are druggies.

>>44866070
>supremacist ideas in mage society?
What the Pentacle and Seers are all about.
>we know what's best for everyone

>>44866480
>supremacist ideas in mage society?
>What the Pentacle and Seers are all about.

Not mage supremacist ideas compared to mortals, but rather among their own kind.

Do mages of particular Paths emulate the racism among humanity?

>>44866581

not generally but obrimos tend to put themselves at the top (because all magic stems from Prime) and the other paths hate it.

>>44866070
>notable Path "racism"
Only one that comes to mind and I found mildly interesting is Mastigos being unsettled by Acanthus because Fate and Time and the whole choice and consequence shtick rub their conception of free will the wrong way.

>>44866700
Mind, Tome of the Watchtowers puts it as Mastigos not liking oath spells because Tome of the Watchtowers, but I think it works well on the conceptual level, especially with the 2e writeups.

http://theonyxpath.com/post-milwaukee-dizziness-monday-meeting-notes/
>Mage: the Awakening Second – Awaiting approved text.

WE GOING BACKWARDS BOYS

Will mages be able to explore the rest of the universe (i.e. go to other planets and such) via magic (or technology + magic) in the second edition? I always found it odd that everything is so centered upon just Earth.

This need not, mind you, involve something like building a spaceship; for example, I could see space magic being used to travel to another planet (or perhaps using one of the strange realms that will be accessible to non-archmages in this edition for quite a bit of shortcuts). Once there other types of magic (namely life and forces) might be used to enable one to actually survive for the duration of the exploration.

>>44866452
>moros never smell quite right

You're not kidding.

I tried dating a really nice Moros not too long ago, but just couldn't ignore it. It was like being intimate with a corpse. It didn't matter how much they cleaned and scrubbed, even a mastery of Life and Matter will not help. Apparently, after you go to Stygia, that "no so fresh" feeling and smell stays with you forever. It's deep down in your soul.

I've heard some Moros believe that traveling to the Underwold and bathing in the River Styx offers some relief. I have my doubts. It'll probably make the problem worse, or at least leave you with a nasty rash.

>>44867265

Approvals are listed in step 9.

>9. Proofing/White Wolf approvals, and

Whereas mage was last listed in its bar as 8 (being the layout) of 9.

http://theonyxpath.com/schedule/

>>44867324

They already could in 1e. There are a few, very scarce references to outer space. Like there being chained gods in far away planets, alien explorers met in Astral space and a throwaway line about Archmasters joining a universal community to deal with magic throughout the cosmos. Within the solar system, I recall some words about Mages being perfectly able to travel to other planets and moons.

The big problem with traveling beyond Earth is the sheer distance and lack of sympathy for Space magic. That and there really are scary as shit alien gods out there, the Idagam being the least scary of them.

>>44867265
That's not backwards. He means text approved by White Wolf, not text approved by Dave.

>>44867414

Wouldn't that be in step 9/proofing then?

>>44863589
I'm changing that, obviously. One of the reasons the original Vacant are dumb is that there's not really any way to lose your Geist. The Wretched were also sort of dumb because the game treated it as if the Geist could take over more often, but it was only an all or nothing thing (and the example Wretched didn't even have the Geist take over all the time).

I don't know if I want the Sin-eater to get the upper hand on Fervor prevention. One of my first versions was actually rolling Synergy while the ST rolled 10-Synergy against you for the Geist. But that rewarded High Synergy in some way.

>>44863875
Because if you have nothing circled in, clearly you're at zero. Same reason Harmony is rated 0 to 10 but only has ten dots.

>>44863891
How's that different from what I'm doing? I plan on using Conditions more often. Unlike Werewolf, I want going AWAY from 5 to grant Conditions like Broken or Fugue, but going TOWARDS 5 to cure them.
I'm also going to have a section explaining in a bit more detail why you always roll Resolve+Composure to resist a Breaking Point in either direction, and why you can't choose to fail--or just not add a Touchstone to--a roll that would make you go up the chart. Basically "because fuck you, that's why". but also because people rarely WANT to change.

>>44865480
Yeah, it's the kind of thing you can see coming a mile away, but still.

>>44865902
>>44865911
Revenants are just broken Embraces. They're just vampires that can't vampire well. They'd be closest to those Banishers who still have Integrity.

>>44866452
>>44867325
Fuck this supernal racism, I hope you like hauntings.

>>44867429
Remember how the status of Mage was entirely inaccurate for 2 full weeks?
It wouldn't surprise me if they fucked up and forgot to move it down, this week

>>44867473

that bar has been at 8 since september.

>>44867265
>>44867380
>>44867414
>Mage: the Awakening Second – Awaiting approved text.

Rich: Well, Dracula, what do you think about Mage 2e? Isn't it great? We can't wait to get it to the fans.

Dracula: With all my LARPing and generally acting goth-y, I've barely had any time to read it. The mechanics and setting do look superb, but I was told there would be more Komodo dragons. We definitely need more references to large reptiles in such an important release.

Rich: Mmmm. I'll need to speak to Brookshaw...

>>44867455
>Revenants are just broken Embraces. They're just vampires that can't vampire well. They'd be closest to those Banishers who still have Integrity.


I meant that both them and the right type of lich are undead beings.

>>44867455
>Revenants are just broken Embraces. They're just vampires that can't vampire well. They'd be closest to those Banishers who still have Integrity.
You're not going to get a 1:1 translation. In terms of relative power within a Mage chronicle, a Sleepwalker is equivalent to a Revenant, because they're people who are aware that [splat] exists, and may or may not be capable of doing some stuff that would make people mistake them for [splat], but they are very much not [splat] by the actual rules of the world.

Ghouls/Proximi, are people who have been empowered through specific effort from [splat], and are capable of pulling some of the same tricks as [splat], but are still definitively not [splat], just a weaker pseudo-version of it.

So no one's going to make the obvious joke about the new category on the Notes, Indexing?

>>44867406

That sounds at once immensely fascinating, awesome, and terrifying. Could I have source links to all of this?

>>44867325
>>44867455
>Moros
>Not so fresh feeling and smell
>supernal racism?

If it's true, is it still racism?

>>44867574
It's about damn time.

>>44867522
You owe me a new laptop.

>>44867455
>I'm also going to have a section explaining in a bit more detail why you always roll Resolve+Composure to resist a Breaking Point in either direction, and why you can't choose to fail--or just not add a Touchstone to--a roll that would make you go up the chart. Basically "because fuck you, that's why". but also because people rarely WANT to change.
>Punishing people for not having low Willpower scores, like Werewolf does
Nah, fuck you.

>>44867581

No. Its spread out through all the books. I know the Astral thing is from the Sidereal Wastes section of Astral Realms and I believe the cosmic Archmaster line is from core. I can't remember the rest off the top of my head.

>>44867623
>You owe me a new laptop.

You're welcome.

>>44867694
>>44867581

Also check-out the Thrice Great from Legacies: the Ancient.

Much of their shtick is interacting with the spirits of the other classic celestial bodies in our solar system.

>>44867406
The lack of sympathy for Space Magic is just plain STRANGE, when you think about it.

not just the name, I mean, but there IS an aspect of space magic that covers distance, line of sight, forming 'links' to things with ease compared to other types...


But I would love to cover fucking space travel. Especially full-vehicle-scale Demon/Angel types.

Imagine. Wizards on a demonship. None of the usual worries (you're not ALWAYS watched by the GM) but everyone has to deal with horrible things out there.

>>44867760

That brings up a very interesting question: What is outer space like in the Shadow Realm?

>>44867325
>>44867429

You think Moros smell bad, try dating a Mastigos.

I still cannot get the demonic stench of sulfur and brimstone out of my favorite sheets, and I'm this close to selling my couch.

>>44867838

what arcana do smells fall under?

>>44867824
Very empty. There isn't a lot of essence out there. There is one star spirit that managed to reach Earth do to a supernova and the help of an Idigam though.

>>44867858

Mundane human smells would be governed by Life, Matter or Death, depending on the source.

However, if the smell is part of a mage's nimbus, I imagine it would fall under the purview of Prime.

>>44867648
>Rewarding people for having low Willpower scores
Integrity as a whole punishes you for low Willpower, and it kind of breaks the game if you can just say "okay, I choose to fail and get better".
The point of the roll is that your character doesn't WANT to shift. I want to fix some of Werewolf's problems, but letting you cheese the system isn't a solution.

Weird question. Has anyone had experience using the Age Background in VtM?

>>44867838
So the smells of different Mages:
>Moros smell like death, must and grave dirt.
>Mastigos smell like sulphur and burning.
>Thyrsus smell like wet dog, sweat and arousal.
>Obrimos smell like ozone.

But what do Acanthus smell like?

>>44868399

DUDE WEED LMAO

>>44868456
Noo, that's also Thyrsus. Drugs are part of their schtick.

>>44868489

Acanthus are Hufflepuff. They are the DUDE path. Thyrsus is more incense.

>>44868503
And LSD.

Don't forget that Acanthus are the "I'll hex yo ass!" Path.

>>44868399

Acanthus just remind you of personally significant smells, anything from your mom's freshly baked chocolate chip cookies after little league practice to the floral perfume you ex-wife wore when she told you that you were a lousy lover, she no longer loved you, and was leaving you for a woman.

>>44868399
>>Obrimos smell like ozone.

Obrimos can also smell like a smoldering hearth or a Spring shower.

>>44857111
Vampire character, It was a performance Presence + Expression. Dice pool was Presence + Awe + Expression + Striking looks 2 + Willpower + 5 equipment + 8 assist roll

>>44869636
Damn. That's some nice clothes.

But yeah. Expected something like that. Just chose combat as example because Vigor is a simpler example than Majesty.

Just finished watching the Last Witch Hunter

So, Chloe: Dreamspeaker or just Dream-focused Mastigos?

Considering taking a few hints from her for my character in an upcoming game

>>44857111
>xe

>>44857111
Why would a vampire name themselves Xe?

>>44870447
Secretly a Grey?

>>44870388
>>44870447
>xe

Obviously a Canadian Invictus involved in currency exchange and other nefarious and enigmatic financial and supernatural dealings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XE.com

>>44870388
>>44870447
>>44870520
It's a third person gender neutral pronoun, dismissed as being "made up". I'm surprised it took people this long to notice.

A new interview with our White Wolf overlords has been published: http://www.examiner.com/article/new-leaders-discuss-future-of-the-world-of-darkness?cid=db_articles

>>44870780
>made up
It's language, of course it's made up.

>>44870831

The short interview, while enthusiastic, revealed absolutely nothing about the fate of the WOD or CofD or any anticipated projects, tabletop rpg or otherwise.

However, we were once again reminded of how much the Paradox crew loves to LARP. They are truly LARPtastic and oh so edgy, at least for Swedes.

>>44870944
Yes, but for some reason people don't understand that. Generally these are the same people who say "it's not in the dictionary" for Spivak pronouns, but complain that the OED has "hashtag" and "tweet".
And forget that like 1000 words were first written down by Shakespeare.

>>44871102
I think they're less complaining about people's ability to create words, and more about their personal dislike the sound of the word.

Much like how I detest "hangry".

>>44871138
>hangry
>Being so hungry you get mad
I never knew I needed this word in my life.

>>44871082

That KULT/Vampire crossover tabletop and LARP campaign is honestly terrifying, but not entirely in the ways Dracula might want it to be.

>>44870780
actually third person gender neutral would be 'it'

he/she/it
This is like first grade stuff.

>>44871196
Some people argue "it" is dehumanising, and prefer "they" or "their".

>>44871102
>>44871215

I bet 5 bucks you're the same guy defending Beast.

>>44871255
I'd take that bet, we're not even the same person.

>>44871196
No, it's "they". It is for inanimate objects and animals.

>>44871215
>Argue
Well, it is. But more than that, "they" has been acceptable for quite a long time. It's only relatively recently that it's been considered "grammatically incorrect", and that's only because one guy wrote a style guide that said it was wrong. Hence why everyone's teacher says that they can't use "They" singularly.
OED even made Singular They their word of the year.

Also this https://youtu.be/46ehrFk-gLk

>>44871255
No. I'm the one who keeps getting "accused" of defending Beast, but it's not like I even like it all that much, I just think people should focus on the numerous problems it actually has.
Also, don't be dumb, they were clearly making a joke that no one got.

>>44871102

You do know language was invented to communicate right? If you keep making shit up, you can't communicate accurately.

This is why grammatical rules and dictionaries exist, so you have a standard of communication that is understandable to everyone who shares your language. This is why you also don't understand people in a language you don't know. If you don't know what particular linguistic sign signifies, you can't understand it.

Xu Flrk Dreang Wipsnik ruckduck ferlatop snickiwickity.

Did you understand that shit? No? well fuck you, those are all words I invented and fuck you for not using them asshole!

>>44871291
>Also, don't be dumb, they were clearly making a joke that no one got.

A joke of the "I was only pretending to be retarded"-variety?

It's getting hard to distinguish joke from actual worldviews. What you think is something incredibly dumb, I bet you there are at least three people out that believe that shit. Probably more if we're talking about tumblr-sphere concepts.

>>44871255

Just the mere reference of the term "Spivak pronouns" reveals all one needs to know about the poster and their politics. Nevertheless, this argument is old news and no one is changing their minds.

We've had a few pleasant days actually amiably discussing the CofD. Lets not once again ruin it over some hard to pronounce pronouns rarely used outside of college campuses and tumblr.

>>44871316
>Xu Flrk Dreang Wipsnik ruckduck ferlatop snickiwickity.

Wasn't Xu the Mastigos Silver Ladder Hierarch of the Kathmandu Consilium before his sudden disappearance during the late 19th Century Nameless Wars.

His believed death heralded the final demise of the Snickiwickity Legacy.

>>44871316
Contrarily, making more shit up adds new concepts and better understands them. I mean, I didn't have the concept of "being so hungry you get mad" until just a few minutes ago. Having a word that means "pleasure at the misfortune of others" is pretty useful if you want to talk about schadenfreude. Language shapes thought. And more than that, language codifies thought. Having MORE words is not a bad thing. The device you're communicating with me through needed a name at one point. Making shit up helped communication by giving it a single word that summed up the complex concept of a "Computer".

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. They say how language IS used, not how language SHOULD be used. They don't make up words, they simply write them down. Grammatical rules are ultimately arbitrary, and standardization is a relatively new concept.

Idea Channel episode on the subject
https://youtu.be/8dNsI3cp6-k
But honestly if you don't think linguistic determinism is the coolest shit, you should get the fuck out.

>>44871360
The joke is that people complain about how WW is SJW, so they used a made up pronoun to describe a hypothetical character.

>>44871365
>Just the mere reference of the term "Spivak pronouns" reveals all one needs to know about the poster and their politics.
That I can use Wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
I mean, technically I used the term wrong, but who gives a fuck

>>44871445
X and z should still be avoided if at all possible.

>>44871445

You need to learn to stop shoving your politics into everything. I don't care what that your friends all shit themselves over 18th century anarchist literature, it's just getting annoying at this point.

>>44871445

The term "Spivak pronoun" is not a secret. However, it is hardly in common parlance (although probably more than "Xe"), and those who actually use it, no less with any regularity, are largely academics and/or on the very far left of the political spectrum.

The issue is not whether you can Google the expression to determine its meaning, but what employing the word in an manner expecting anyone to immediately recognize it reveals about yourself.

>10 new posts
>it's the same arguments about pronouns again

Never change, WoD General. At least we put this one while the ship's going down.

Oh God, are we going down the pronoun rabbit hole again?

>>44871493
Britain pls go.
plz.

>>44871548
That's because by definition people on the conservative side of the political spectrum are averse to change.

>>44871501
>>44871576
LINGUISTIC DESCRIPTIVISM IS A HILL I WILL DIE ON

>>44871585

Just become a namefag so we can filter and ignore you please.

>>44871576

How did we go from a friendly and amusing discussion what the mages of different Paths smell like and what the new Paradox interview might reveal about WW plans to the same old tired arguments about pronouns?

***bangs head against desk***

>>44871626

Because some people can't shut up about them.
If the one fuckface that keeps bringing it up would either leave or everyone else would ignore his input in...well anything we'd be much better off.

>>44871585
>That's because by definition people on the conservative side of the political spectrum are averse to change

Change is most certainly not synonymous with "good" or "better," nor does suggesting more words in a language necessarily make anything more precise or understandable, no less acceptable to the vast majority of the speakers of such language.