Been thinking of a homebrew chapter idea to draw lately. What about a chapter based off Chinese army concepts? Guan Yu alone fulfills the badassery requirement for a Chapter Master. A war saint in China, he remained absolutely loyal to his monarch Liu Bei to the point of certain death, literally played chinese chess while surgery was performed on an arm, and died, refusing to surrender his loyalty to Liu Bei at the battle of fancheng.
"In the Western world, Guan Yu is sometimes called the Taoist God of War, probably because he is one of the most well-known military generals worshiped by the Chinese people. This is a misconception of his role, as, unlike the Greco-Roman deity Mars or the Norse god Týr, Guan Yu, as a god, does not necessarily bless those who go to battle but rather people who observe the code of brotherhood and righteousness."
What does /tg/ think? Rest of chapter can be based off Imperial China with melee cavalry (not that shitty barbarian motorbike gang) favoring flanking and melee skirmishes, relegating the use of firearms to scouts or Imperial Guard. As Imperial China paralleled medieval Knighthood a bit in this regard where heavily armored cavalry were regarded highly and conscripted peasants made the bulk of their infantry/siege-work/garrison.
Would greenstuff badass beards/10.
Given how fucking often "Fire Attacks!!!" appeared in Romance of the 3 Kindoms, you could model them after his classical green-and-gold with red trim and run them with Salamander chaptacs, especially given how bro-tier they are.
And fucking seriously, roll with a bazillion fu man chus on your helmetless dudes.
For anything China-based, Guan Yu and Zhang Liao have to compete for conceptual space with Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao. And that's just in that era, and not at all inclusive. You could easily fill out a full eighteen legions from ancient Chinese concepts and not repeat yourself once.
Yeah, I do love me some manly fucking beards popping out of power armor. Never even thought of the Salamanders.
Was originally going with Imperial Fists, but now that you mention it, Salamanders are pretty bro-tier, especially if I'm going for the most brotherly kingdom in the Three Kingdoms Period as a motif.
Imagine the troll doll head I'd have to de-attach to make Zhang Fei's wild beard lol. Really good idea.
^ this. That's why it's so hard to think of a cohesive setup. I want sort of a homebrew story to go along with the theme that's worthy enough.
I don't want to make them just a common reskin of say a chapter already in existence with superior tactics and superior Chapter Masters. Even if this is all done for artistic purposes and paint jobs.
So why stick with one cohesive setup? There's a lot of ideas there for the plundering! XD
Just from the Three Kingdoms era, there's a few archetypes that pop out: the cunning strategist, the badass leader, and the wizard. Let's explore all of them!
Combat leaders are exemplified by guys like Gan Ning and Zhang Liao. Xiahou Yuan and Zhang Fei are also good examples, though they all do it a bit differently. The common thread is being able to strike quickly with mass and momentum. Zhang Liao stunned a massive army with a 1000-strong cavalry charge. Xiahou Yuan was able to force-march his men like nobody's business. So forth and so on. Strong personal combatants like Lu Bu really belong in their own category and are distinct from this.
The cunning strategist encompasses Zhou Yu, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang and Lu Xun. The common threads here are knowing how to use terrain to your advantage and suckering your opponent into traps. All of these also involve organization on different levels, although that's not a thing that really shows up on the tabletop. It's more of a lore thing.
Wizards gets covered by Yu Ji and Zhang Liang. And partly by Zhuge Liang, for the whole calling the winds thing. Basically, think Librarians. Librarians everywhere. (That is what SM psykers are called, right?)
Lu Bu = Cato Sicarius. Joking, but yeah I do believe he should remain a strong warrior, but not necessarily a wise general.
As for Xiahou Yuan, I can imagine scenarios where he force marched not only his own men, but Imperial Guard regiments surrounding their home world. To the point of exhaustion and thus, while none of his elite Astartes die, a great majority of IG are led as meatshields and massacred as frontline infantry.
I do want there to be a certain duality given the best chapters in my opinion aren't Mary Sues and have really distinct issues in their chapters like Dark Angels or (eventhough they kind of took a lot of elements from Ravenguard/Blood Angels) the Blood Ravens.
Would be interesting if fantasy Zhuge Liang mirrored the events transpiring at Red Cliff against hordes of burly, powerful orks in Space Hulks lol.
> Zhou Yu, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang and Lu Xun.
Always thought it would be interesting if Cao Cao was born from a minor noble, thus, knew how to manipulate political strategems and took great interest in governmental affairs. Ultimately becoming a Planetary Governor in his own rights, keeping alliances with the Imperium through political marriage, manipulative messages and befriending certain planetary governors. Manipulating their resources to be sent to bolster the ranks of his Astartes and homeworld.
Would be an interesting extreme duality that stains the honor of their Chapter's highly loyal and venerable marines like Guan Yu, Gan Ning, and Zhuge Liang. But, is considered necessary for their huge campaign costs.
Would probably work as White Scar descendants, but I kind of doubt they'd throw away any ranged capabilities, more like having a considerable number of melee specialists while bolters added support from full on battlebrothers.
You could just place those guys in different companies, couldn't you? Then you'd also have some interchapter intrigue and politicking.
>filthy barbaric motorbike gang.
I can see a Chinese based chapter competing and vehemontly denouncing the White Scars, but I don't think they should be the only progenitor Chapter for Asian homebrews.
>You could just place those guys in different companies, couldn't you? Then you'd also have some interchapter intrigue and politicking.
NOW THAT's a good idea. And having outsiders totally oblivious to these individual aspects. Plays on expectations which could make or break battles. They're main, collective, threat could be the fear of having their Chapter being divided should individual companies become unruly enough in the eyes of the Imperium.
Chi Bi was an odd duck in a lot of ways. Cao Cao was pretty well justified in making the attempt; after all, capitalizing on momentum had worked well for him in the past. On the other hand, Zhou Yu accurately described the Wei army as 'the sick leading the uncertain'. For all that he and Sun Quan were uncertain of their prospects in the novel, Rafe de Crispigny paints a very different picture of the Wu leadership's attitude towards battling Wei following the fall of Jing Province. Long story short, I don't think the same issues that Cao Cao had with his force would really apply to orks. Unless you mean more like sending fireship-equivalents into a tightly packed fleet of Space Hulks. Which would be fucking awesome.
As for the duality aspect, I think I see what you're getting at. Would that be sort of like a chapter based on the Yellow Turbans which has a shitload of psykers to represent the Zhang brothers and their sorcery, but also has inferior training and equipment compared to other chapters?
Well, we could always say that they came from White Scar stock, but they had philosophical disagreements with their parent chapter.
Besides, what other progenitor would fit the asian background best?
>more like sending fireship-equivalents into a tightly packed fleet of Space Hulks. Which would be fucking awesome
Or tricking Chaos regiments into thinking there are more loyalists hidden behind a forgeworld having disrupted the sensing modules from the warbands ships and left the gates open. Much like Zhuge Liang's Empty Fort strategy, fantasy Liang would counteract the opposing war chief's knack for strategems and cautiousness that mirrored Liang's brilliance by leaving the gates wide open; setting up the environment to look like an ambush after the loyalist companies sustained harsh casualties in conflict beforehand.
"psykers to represent the Zhang brothers and their sorcery, but also has inferior training and equipment compared to other chapters?"
Yeah and perhaps have that chapter fall into chaos or distrust by their brother companies. While companies under Zhuge Liang, Zhang Fei, and Guan Yu would be seen as inspirations to the rest of their companies.
Even having companies form up based on similar ideology or having them allied with one another to reflect the three main factions they historically derive from. While far more accepting of other companies belonging in outside factions as they share the same geneseed and the same spiritual liege, it is not uncommon for companies to feud with one another even to the point of waging honor battles. This is done so the Imperium doesn't just divide their asses or assimilate their group into other Chapters. Keeping fights in house so to speak.
Would this chapter necessarily be codex compliant? I"d like to think that it'd be more than just a thousand astartes having at each other and screwing up worlds in the process. Like, make their number pretty big such that in chapter fighting could lead to some pretty drastic consequences.
Adding onto this, Sun Quan's faction may be seen as far more experienced, with more venerable and regular dreadnaughts in their fold. Cao Cao's faction may work and rely heavily on IG, using them as meatshields and suffering less casualties than other faction companies in their Chapter while also relying on meticulous stratagems that incorporate two bodies of power. And having the added bonus of being ambitious by nature, somewhat mirroring the success of lufgt huron when he built a pocket empire by gaining more political/military power in worlds near the Maelstorm. Only reason Cao Cao's company doesn't degenerate by their liege's ambitions is due to other companies keeping them in check, constantly competing for prestige and honor.
Trying to model the Empty Fort strategy in any sort of game setting is hard as nails. R3K sim games used to be a thing (forum games, not the vidya game series) and trying to model this strategem always caused so damn much butthurt. "Oh, it's cool and iconic! Now how do we actually balance it?"
But I like the idea, yeah. Of a commander who can so thoroughly get inside his counterpart's head that he doesn't even need to fight to achieve his objectives.
Those are interesting as hell ideas, and something you don't see come up very often. The Ultramarines have their own thing going, but it's not really 'web of influence' style. And interchapter competition of that sort could make for some interesting ideas. As well as "Oh, you were expecting [x]?" shenanigans.
Three Kingdoms sauce 40K would be quite something to see.
Would Cao Cao's faction therefore always be working in conjunction with IG?
Would we then see the chapter take command of IG/PDF regiments in their sector of space, or would they just influence their deployments to battlefields of their choosing?
Is that allowable for Homebrews? I know there's no copyright law against it, but I mean to say, are there like rules made by the community dictating the power homebrews should have?
I do think this chapter would have to be huge enough to dick over planets in their feuding, but also believable. Don't want to make this out to be some fanboy chapter with poorly written OP fluff so I'm just curious as to how I would keep their power in check.
Any suggestions on writing their restrictions if you will?
>Empty Fort strategy
We could always make some of the characters Chaos marines (either older veterans of the Horus Heresy, or recently fallen from the chapter itself). Then play off of one another, vying for control of the sector/subsector/region of space.
I don't know, to be honest, what restrictions would be reasonable. I would assume that twice the normal chapter size may in fact be pushing things, but for the clusterfuck that might ensue in a possible chapter war, that may be the right size to portray things.
Iunno, maybe. Just brainstorming ideas here since Cao Cao, to me, was a really good politician and thus would probably work with Planetary Governors more often. Would probably be very ambitious even if his sworn duty is to be a Battle Brother.
I'm thinking fantasy Cao Cao may be one of those types that was born to be a politician yet life and nurture took a different route and he now has to manage responsibilities of both being a Space Marine and wanting Administrative/Governmental level power.
Cao Cao's company or faction would probably benefit from his cunning and silver tongue, as they go out and make more political connections with the surrounding star systems that they are involved in. Definitely makes him a dangerous opponent. I kind of like the idea that he can persuade and manipulate regional governors and forces to do his bidding.
"Oh, it's cool and iconic! Now how do we actually balance it?"
Yeah, it seems like something that's far more natural in say a pvp game where you just dick another player into believing something you want.
Hard to write. Will think more on it or scrap it. Gtg, but I will keep thinking on famous battles factions or the Chapter as a whole could write down as their achievements.
I can't remember which battle this occurred in, but I think Zhang Fei had some guys on horseback rid around with a bunch of tree branches to stir up a huge cloud of dust, fooling the opposing force into thinking that a large contingent of soldiers were on their way as reinforcements.
We could do the same thing with warbikes, but I'm not sure how that would work if the enemy has sat imaging.
Easiest thing would be a crusading chapter, since they aren't held strictly to membership standards, with a mandate to bring into compliance an unruly sector. Chapter is split between three primary battlegroups that are coming into conflict as their leaders vie for the open position of Chapter Master.
Either that or simply having three chapters based on the individual kingdoms.
ok, how about this:
The Chapter is a crusading chapter meant to pacify a particular sector, perhaps one at the far edges of the Imperium. They ship out, but the ship with their Chapter Master seems to have been lost in the Warp. This leads to the various other company commanders, already having their own factions, vying for the lead position, while having to deal with retaking the sector. Each faction makes allies and enemies, either with regional loyal forces, xenos, and/or possibly heretics. Meanwhile, a warpstorm comes to engulf the sector so as to prevent anyone from going in or out, thereby making the conflict contained in one region of space, where no other help can come to find out what's going on.
I'd drop the warpstorm. Rather they're intentionally deceiving the greater Imperium about what's going on as neither side wishes the loss of influence and face that would come with other parties getting involved nor do they want to risk their actions being investigated.
That sounds pretty nuts. And kinda plausible. To add to the confusion, maybe two groups turn renegade. The 'Yellow Turban' faction goes full on Chaos, whereas the faction under Dong Zhuo just turns into a bunch of reaving assholes. There's a group of Imperial Loyalists led by Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun, championed by Ding Yuan, who are trying to keep everyone on track, but who fail miserably because they can't deal with the utter chaos of the situation.
Nah, the Yellow Turban faction is a local uprising that formed due to the poor policies and inept governing of the sector leadership. Dong Zhou is the Chapter Master of a pre-existing chapter who seized political power for himself through puppet rulers during the upheaval and steadily weakening power of sector authorities. The Imperium wants the Yellow Turbans destroyed as, not only are they led by psykers, they seem unwilling to pay the Tithe, the sector government purged, as they're seen as incapable, and Dong Zhou brought down, as they think he's fixing to go full Huron.
Was thinking the factions would have an adversity to AdMechs or body modifications in general.
From my research, it would suggest the concept of being "spiritually whole" was one of the things executioners or torturers would use against unruly civilians. By cutting off limbs, victims would be considered "impure" or at the very least, not spiritually sound which had negative implications in both the physical realm and the afterlife.
so, let's see, bad admech relation, likely to have poor relation to administratum, probably going to have major disagreements with ecclesiarchy, if their belief system is based on ancient china.
Lu Bu is the successor to Dong Zhou as Chapter Master who eventually grinds his chapter to dust trying to play politics against people much better at it than him.
One of the Yellow Turban's grievances against the sector government is the increasing power of the ten Magos who rule the sector's forgeworlds among the sector nobility. Among the sector's desperate populace the AdMech is reviled for their promises of work and shelter only to forcibly convert the destitute into servitors.
Not. Necessarily. Monarchs have in the past claimed to be Buddhist or the major religion of that time in order to justify their war campaigns. Much like the Holy Roman Empire, though one religion isn't predominant throughout China historically, the major religion at the time can be used to rally people. It's interesting because major religions never remain in power for long and after the Tang Dynasty, Buddhists were actually persecuted as scapegoats for the state of decline in the Empire.
That said, I think they could be swayed heavily by the Lectitio Divinitatus and then given a successor Chapter after their indoctrination.
That makes a lot of sense too. A lot more sense actually, and it fits in with the whole 'everything sucks' vibe of the setting.
Lu Bu isn't hard to slot in. Hell, he works just fine as a champion for Dong Zhuo. Now here's the question: is he redeemable? Bear in mind, he worked for Liu Bei for awhile and would have done just fine in that role if Zhang Fei hadn't been a total asshole to him, and he did offer to work for Cao Cao after he sobered up. (Granted, his life was on the line at the moment.)
Also. How to represent the Nanman and other indigenous non-Han Chinese people for the purposes of setting? As a Xenos infestation, or rebellious humans?
>Also. How to represent the Nanman and other indigenous non-Han Chinese people for the purposes of setting? As a Xenos infestation, or rebellious humans?
Possibly fringe worlds or mixed in with the main populace. Could just be ethnic minorities in the grand scheme of things in this particular sector of space. I can't really think up anything that relates to them other than being used as specialized auxiliaries.
Seems like they could do this somewhat quietly so long as tithes are paid and representatives are paid off or shown what the Chapter wants them to see.
Given the Chapter seems to be in control of either worlds of crusading ships with populations of people and ruling political bodies, it would be in their best interest to suck up to the administratum. Or at least, for politically motivated members of the Chapter. I think the main fear of the Chapter would be for the Imperium to divide it into smaller parts or assimilate the companies into other Chapters because of disunity.
I wonder how we could translate over the incident with Liu Bei's son. You know, the one that had to be rescued, and then he later dropped the kid, stating that he could always have another child, but not another general like, who was it? Zhao Yun?
Zhao Yun, yes. And what with SMs not having brats, that's an incident that doesn't translate particularly well. You could replace Liu Shan with something significant, but ultimately kinda replaceable.
Could go either way.
Spacefaring legion that has populations of humans in ships. Enough populations for IG regiments to be formed as auxileries to Cao Cao's legion with some faction companies owning fiefdoms or alliances to nearby worlds. Thus it regulates their Chapter from going full scale war with one another if they're so spread apart.
Or. They each own a world. That's it. One fiefdom. Originally, the chapter was given three worlds, but due to factions and personalities of Space Marine Captains not meshing with one another, they divided it into their own distinctive regions while still remaining as a cohesive chapter when called upon to battle a common threat.
Familial relations can simply be replaced by friendships and other attachments. Also keep in mind that you can farm out characters to the IG and local auxiliaries. Gan Ning, for example, has zero reason to be a Space Marine.
we could make such that Zhao Yun is protecting a noble's son, the same one that's supporting them in a campaign, risking his own life to maintain that support.
Liu Bei isn't happy that one of his most trusted sergeants is risking his life to bring back some snooty git.
I love how the lore is..."So Dad's not coming back home anytime soon. What do you guys want to do? I want to own a mini-empire. I want to fight in valiant combat and become a war saint. I'm the eldest brother, all this land is mine, and I want to be like father. "
Ensuing Dynasty Warriors music. Only real issue is deciding what campaigns to focus on, what feats, and who to focus on. As there are a lot of personalities vying for power in Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Wouldn't that run contrary to the Codex Astartes given Space Marines are supposed to be isolated from their previous lives, their geneseed and indoctrination pushing their loyalties to the Emprah and the Chapter instead?
Unless they're like the White Scars or Space Wolves where legion members just hang out with local tribes at times as leaders.
It'd be best to think of this as a sector homebrew that focuses heavily on the Space Marine crusade. You've got the Wu, Wei, and Shu analogues, the Yellow Turban rebellion, and the Dong Zhou analogue and his chapter as primary foci.
I'm talking about relationships formed within the crusade, remember the only local SM chapter is Dong Zhou's, who is a target in the crusade.
I don't think Chaos should be a huge element at all. Chaos also means dragging in shit like Inquisitors and Ecclesiarchy which only further complicate things.
I do think this homebrew has a lot of potential though given how much anons have already pillaged from R3K already.
Chaos cults/Groups = Minority Chinese or rebellions from constant campaigning in fiefdoms? Or maybe the Yellow Turbans could be a giant red mark for the Chapter and went to the Chaos Gods.
Ambitions of Leaders = To simplify it, I guess the main leaders, Sun Quan, Liu Bei, and Cao Cao have 40k versions of their ideologies and ambitions. They each want to take reign over the Chapter after fatha left believing their rulership is best for the entire brotherhood.
Xenos = Tau. They might secretly hate eachother, but they may view Tau to be a unifying threat that they can kind of use to avoid conflict with one another. Orks given they come in hordes and can be used for achievements if overcome.
Here's an interesting thought. If we're to assume this Chapter is like the Space Wolves and brings a special animal unit to the fray in the form of mounts, Tyranids would be effective against them. Mutant Horses could run the gambit of being infected or consumed by Tyranids more effectively. Thus it would serve as a dilemma, forcing them to adapt to landspeeders or motorbikes especially if this is a recent development.
Ah my bad must've misread. What I meant is how do you think IG and local government would fit into this? Can a SM chapter have this much governance over local governments? Always assumed it was frowned upon.
>Would probably work as White Scar descendants, but I kind of doubt they'd throw away any ranged capabilities
There's nothing saying that a descendant chapter has to have the same battlestyle as their originator.
Bolter-glaives are already a thing too.
- The Triumvirate
- Crescent Tiger
- Jade Empire
- Imperial Dragons
- Three Tigers
- River's Finger
- Phoenix Kings
- Storm Covenant
- War Saints
- Red Hares
- Heaven's Mandate
Wait... wouldn't having no Chapter Master for that long cause the Imperium to meddle with this whole Three Kingdoms affair anyhow?
Are we assuming this happened recently or that they've been going at it for some time? Because if it's the latter, the High Lords of Terra would definitely require a Chapter to have a Chapter Master.
I would assume they lost the chapter master very recently, such that there is a sort of power struggle, and one of the guys is placed as chapter master, but there are still factions underneath him that don't fully follow his word.
>How to represent the Nanman and other indigenous non-Han Chinese people for the purposes of setting? As a Xenos infestation, or rebellious humans?
My snakebite orks are a bunch of various small clans, led by a Meng Huo copy, and my meganobs are led by Wutugu copy, the boarboys are led by Mulu copy, etc.This actually works pretty well for both Nanman and 40K fluff, as a warlord has joined separate tribes together to fight a common enemy.
I have an idea for a war speech.
Based off the poem "Foundation of Shu"
"Our former comrades watch us! Till we are united at heaven's gate. Our oath taken under the peach garden tree. Go forth, my brothers! We unite this land for our glorious Spiritual Liege and Hidden Primarch!"
Assumes they're progenitors are the White Scars.
>"Our former comrades watch us! Till we are united at heaven's gate. Our oath taken under the peach garden tree. Go forth, my brothers! We unite this land for our glorious Spiritual Liege and Hidden Primarch!"
"Our former comrades watch us! Until we are united at heaven's gate, remember the Three's oath taken under the peach garden tree. Go forth, my brothers! We unite this land for our glorious Spiritual Liege and Hidden Primarch!"
Or something like this.