Still going for a more streamlined opening post. Keep in mind I have no control over half the things in the pastebin.
Previous thread: >>44769976
Have any of you used the new rules from the Chronicles of Darkness book? Investigation, Chases, or Horrors?
How did they work out? What did you use them for, and did you tweak them any?
Spells cast on living beings last a maximum of 1 month.
However as I said before, you'll still need a good dice pool, as well as an Arcanum at 5.
It's one of the "ultimate" ability of your Arcanum, I would hope that it was suitably fantastical.
>Really exited for Hunter 2.0
>"Maybe they'll finally drop some of the sillier aspects of Hunter"
>The websites says they'll be taking inspiration from Mortal Remains
>Also they'll be trying for more diversity.
On one hand more diversity may give us better "foreign" conspiracies.
On the other hand, given Mortal Remains and their track record, this is going to end up with like 12 gimmicky and/or utter stereotype factions.
I am worried /wodg/,
This could go three ways, and only one of them is good.
What problem do you have with Mortal Remains? Seriously, it's one fucking sidebar and it's no where near as accusative as you people make it out to be. I seriously doubt that we're going to end up back at some Kuei-jin/Gypsies level bullshit
Also, what sillier aspects?
Why would you need an Arcanum at 5? Isn't Advanced Duration only one dot above? I could have sworn most of the spells that give you +Whatever are Adept level.
Although, really, it's sort of a fool's game anyway. "I can max my stats" as a Mage is sort of like a Wizard trying to max their damage in D&D. You can sidestep around most of the need for stats with your magic.
It's true about the Thyrsus, though. Once they hit Life 5 they can absolutely fucking insane with this kind of shit. They get a spell which turns all Life effects currently active on someone into natural parts of his body (sure, if you use it to stick wings on a human they'll die from Disbelief as soon as they go out, but Subtle shit is golden), not "Spells". Load up on boosting all of your physical attributes to 5 (by which point the spell's still not Vulgar), do the Life 5 version of Body Control, the Life 5 version of Mage Armor (both Subtle, IIRC), and basically any other Subtle modification you can excuse putting on yourself.
Use Permanency. You are now Captain America, Shaman.
Not him, but despite what people keep saying I'm not really getting a bad vibe from Beast.
Sure it's a needy, self-important book which advertises itself as capable of being added to any existing game, while as a result suffering from a near complete loss of direction, and some pretty crappy default enemies.
But the Otherkin stuff?
It isn't much worse than the Uratha.
>They get a spell which turns all Life effects currently active on someone into natural parts of his body
Where's that from?
Also I can't see how that would get past the 1 month time limit in 1e.
I get that any Arcana at 5 is meant to be spectacular, but the thing is that getting there, especially if it's one of your strong suits, is REALLY easy. Like, early-middle of the Chronicle, no sweat.
>What problem do you have with Mortal Remains? Seriously, it's one fucking sidebar and it's no where near as accusative as you people make it out to be. I seriously doubt that we're going to end up back at some Kuei-jin/Gypsies level bullshit
I wasn't even thinking of the sidebar.
Although fuck the sidebar, now that you bring it up.
No, my issue lies with the brazenness with which they enforced the "Hunters are all pawns and also evil and also wrong all the time" narrative. Which had so far been a thing underpinning the setting, but outside of Compacts and Conspiracies (In my opinion the worst book released for nWoD) had only been a backdrop of the setting, not shoved in your face repeatedly.
I'm also not a fan of the gimmicky nature of the conspiracies. (Although the Habiti Ma were pretty decent as an idea, whoever came up with that idea should get some props)
>Also, what sillier aspects?
Everything about the ascending ones for a start. (Which is just sort of cluelessly racist, when it's not just being their "Everything that isn't European or American" faction with a side of "Yeah they're also all the European or American shit we couldn't fit in anywhere else"), the things I talked about above, as well as stuff like the dirty bomb, Aryan genies, and the purchase of TF:V.
Hereditary Change, page 192.
>[...]bestow upon a creature the characteristics of other life forms, with the ability to pass such characteristics along through heredity (...). This spell is cast in combination with one that alters a creature's features, such as Transfer Median Features or Fantasia. Some mages choose to perform this spell upon creatures that have already been born, whether in their youth or their adulthood, while others prefer to use only unborn beings, altering them within the womb (or inside the egg) so that their changed characteristics are manifest at birth. In theory, anything from a slug to a bird to a dog to a chimpanzee can be physically manipulated in this way. The mage must touch the target (or its egg, or the belly of the beast carrying the unborn animal). The features are lasting. Effectively, the new form is considered the creature's natural form unless the being is altered again through another use of Life magic. The traits are hereditary, creating a magical bloodline. Mages who make fantastic creatures are well advised to hide them away from prying eyes, such as deep within an isolated sanctum or in the remote wilderness. Truly fantastic beasts created using the Fantasia spell (such as ambulatory pine trees with eyes, fangs, predatory instincts and the ability to spit digestive enzymes, or winged crocodiles with venom) tend to sicken and die when witnessed by Sleepers. The Sleeper's Disbelief successes (Resolve + Composure roll) deliver bashing damage to the creature once per scene in which it is witnessed, each time a new Sleeper sees it. The Disbelief dice pool may be reduced by one or two dice by playing to prevailing local myths (making a chupacabra in South or Central America, for example), or by putting an altered creature somewhere far away from the general run of humanity, where there are those who still believe the impossible can happen.
Well, you do need to cast this spell once for every feature you want to make permanent, and it's a Life 5 VULGAR spell. It's pretty risky.
Then again, imagine someone's done this some 400 years ago, turning himself into "Captain America". All his children and children's children and so on would be superheroes.
Hey, hey now. It *can* add to an existing game...
There's just way too much stuff to bother with if you ever did want to do that, and Hunter and the new corebook covers it better.
Yeah, but... so? Like... it's so pointless.
But... Hunters aren't all pawns and also evil and also wrong all the time. I mean, I don't like the Knights of Saint Adrian for that reason, but you've got other people going on about how Mortal Remains is dumb for the exact opposite, in that Hunters are good and caring and never wrong about how much they love Sin-eaters and Changelings and Prometheans and feel bad if they ever have to fight them.
I agree with you that the Shulpae are gimmicky, but other than the "working for the God-Machine" aspect of the Knights of Saint Adrian, I like them.
And again: The sidebar is not bullshit. Like, people keep acting like it says "if you're not SJW you can go kill yourself", but I've read the thing several times now and that is seriously not the tone. I can only see someone reading into it like that if they ARE a /pol/ack.
Those are spells that change features, not make spells permanent. Life armour isn't a feature, it's a supernatural hardening of a biological organism in a way nature simply can't manage.
Same with attribute augmentation, unless you literally warp your body to have those physical attributes (in which case you'd look like some horrifying warped abomination) you can't do that.
Wings, claws, even spitting acid. Those all work, because those are in nature.
Natural fire breathing and supreme armour?
That... doesn't work on humans.
You can't permanently alter the pattern of a human (unless you use Conditional Duration and go "Until I feel like it"). There's a reason that it talks about animals and beasts.
They had to beat the first and second drafts with a fucking shovel to get it into that shape.
Sort of shows the good and bad of the public preview stuff. Without it, they might have released it when it was at maximum cringe.
>And again: The sidebar is not bullshit. Like, people keep acting like it says "if you're not SJW you can go kill yourself", but I've read the thing several times now and that is seriously not the tone. I can only see someone reading into it like that if they ARE a /pol/ack.
It's accusatory, pointless, and comes out of nowhere.
World of Darkness has been fucking with the gender spectrum since its fucking inception (And in much more interesting ways than just a changed pronoun). Anyone who has a problem with alternative pronouns hasn't gotten this fucking far.
The sidebar was just there to preach to the converted, while still being fucking accusatory.
So fuck that.
>But... Hunters aren't all pawns and also evil and also wrong all the time.
In magic and religious traditions humans are oftne given a special position.
Expecting a game about mages not to use that aspect is silly.
Powers have always been all over the map.
Honestly the imbued aren't even the worst of it, you should check out of some of the more esoteric disciplines.
>Q: What is the rationale behind the 'no indefinite durations on a living being' rule, anyway? It seems kind of artificial to me, and it's been hampering the plotline of my incipient game.
>A: Living Patterns grow and change constantly. Magic unravels around this growth. Theoretically, this isn't a problem in the Supernal World, but here in the Fallen World, it's a fact of life. Mages claim that some degrees of archmastery might allow a mage to fix magic indefinately to a living Pattern.
>And it sure does help game balance.
Although I was wrong about "until I feel like it", sort of:
>Q: Does Conditional Duration allow a Life spell pseudo indefinate duration? As an example, the Beauty and the Beast curse (you will be ugly until you find true love).
>A: If the bonus Duration factors you gain due to the Conditional casting bump you up to indefinite Duration, then yes. Otherwise, no (unless you add factors manually). Of course, you have to be able to use the advanced prolongation factors first (a Conditional casting doesn't improve that chart).
>You're example of finding true love is either Improbable (+1 factor) or Infrequent (+2 factors), depending on what type of game you're playing in.
Yeah, but unless something explicitly exempts humans when referring to animals as a group humans are included.
"Florine gas is poisonous to all animals, even in low concentrations."
>"Well good thing I'm a human then. I'll just walk around in the chemical spill"
>Anyone who has a problem with alternative pronouns hasn't gotten this fucking far.
Have you BEEN in these threads? People bitch about it all the time. There was even a discussion on whether it would be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" to not play WW games because you don't like the social justice aspects.
I mean that Mortal Remains doesn't force the notion that they are. The Conspiracies are villainous, and frankly so is Utopia Now, but almost everything else in the book isn't. Again, some people complained that it implied you could work WITH the monsters, and that VALKYRIE has a Changeling witsec.
They're not Base or Median Life, though.
Basically, Mage 2e removes all "speedbumps". If you can manipulate matter, you can manipulate gold. It doesn't matter if Gold has more of a metaphysical significance to human culture.
"Animals live in nature"
"Animals will get into your food if you don't secure it when camping"
"Animals are frightened by humans"
>Have you BEEN in these threads? People bitch about it all the time. There was even a discussion on whether it would be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" to not play WW games because you don't like the social justice aspects.
Yes, I've been.
People have complained about the hamfisted bullshit of the writers, not the gender fuckery.
It's mostly the matter/liquid/gas divide.
The "expensive materials are reserved for Mastery" stays (I think).
The main justification was that a Weaving spell is a Weaving spell, it shouldn't matter what kind of matter the subject is, it's still matter.
I can't remember where that's from though.
>Basically, Mage 2e removes all "speedbumps". If you can manipulate matter, you can manipulate gold. It doesn't matter if Gold has more of a metaphysical significance to human culture.
But that did contribute to the mystical feeling of the game... not to mention balance.
They've complained about fucking both. People think having Trevor and Eric in a relationship with no actual talk about "they're gay and you should be okay with that" is forced and hamfisted.
People literally have a problem with gay people showing up in the book.
eh. It over complicated things.
And you can deal with balance better. I don't agree with Matt, but it's also reasonable that you shouldn't have to deal with all that stuff.
Balance isn't really going to be that much of a problem in 2e I don't think.
Even just the introduction of reach and the removal of extended rituals make me think that Magic's about to become a LOT more dangerous.
However on the plus side, Mind Mages can't hide behind Subtle any more, and Forces Mages with significant prowess can throw lightning like it's nothing.
>People literally have a problem with gay people showing up in the book.
They chose the wrong damn game and company to go to then, because they're likely to be perpetually mad.
Also who the fuck are Trevor and Eric?
>They've complained about fucking both. People think having Trevor and Eric in a relationship with no actual talk about "they're gay and you should be okay with that" is forced and hamfisted.
>People literally have a problem with gay people showing up in the book.
I have literally not seen that, and you're deflecting from what we were actually talking about.
The fucking core book has casual mentions of homosexuality, the HUNTER core book has more than one gay person in it, and nobody has complained about that.
You're making shit up to defend a really, really stupid sidebar.
I have never seen anyone complain about the mere presence of gay people in the books. Ever. Not on this thread, not on hotwheelschan, not anywhere. Just about the bizarrely placed sidebars, and how jarring and preachy they are.
The closest thing is that my group sometimes cracks jokes about the example touchstone in VtR that's just "your bro that you would watch the game with every week and give a frosty brojob to", simply because of how silly and out of nowhere it is.
I actually really liked that one. Showing what others would consider to be a casual thing to be a very meaningful to the character.
That being said, I don't think it would actually work with the other fluff.
>They chose the wrong damn game and company to go to then
That's what I said.
>Who the fuck are Trevor and Eric?
Dude, you are blind, then. People complain about that shit all the time, more so when VtR was new.
Also, how am I deflecting from what we were actually talking about? I agree with you that the books have gay characters (although I don't remember any from Hunter). People have complained about them. People have complained that there are probably more gay or trans characters than cis white guys. People complained that one of the Mage characters is nonbinary. People of course complained about a Beast going by ze. People have even complained about the M-preg stuff in Werewolf and Demon, though surprisingly not that much.
My defense of the sidebar is that the sidebar isn't even that bad and you people need to get over it.
>Also, how am I deflecting from what we were actually talking about?
We were talking about the sillier shit of Hunter, and you only talk about how many homophobes you apparently encounter that NOBODY ELSE IN THE FUCKING WORLD sees.
You went on about the damned sidebar. Then when I pointed out people bitch about the books being too social justice--which happened just last thread, not to mention your original post--you started going on about how no one else sees that at all and I'm making it up despite the fact that people do complain about it at least once a thread. You even ignored where I tried to point out that Mortal Remains didn't reinforce Hunters as ignorant pawns, like you said it did, so that you could bitch about how I'm wrong and no one ever complains about OPP being SJW.
For fucks sake, don't blame me for deflecting. You're the one who ignored half my post.
>You went on about the damned sidebar.
You brought it up.
You kept defending it.
I merely responded to it.
>you started going on about how no one else sees that at all and I'm making it up despite the fact that people do complain about it at least once a thread.
You've now been told by three people that they have not experienced this rampant homophobia and transphobia in the wodg community.
You are either making it up, or you are in some shitty fucking circles.
>You even ignored where I tried to point out that Mortal Remains didn't reinforce Hunters as ignorant pawns
This you are right about though. I feel like I should point out that I did so because I feel as if we were never going to get anywhere with that. Even if I started posting specific pages, we'd just get into the fucking minutia of what something implies.
Because that's what happened with something that is way more obvious.
You're the one who brought the fucking sidebar up when he mentioned the "sillier aspects of hunter". I'm not even the dude you were originally arguing with.
This is probably why you see so many people complaining about things they aren't, you're so fucking defensive and obsessive that you keep seeing things that aren't there.
>I merely responded to it.
And I'm responding to you, so...
>I feel like I should point out that I did so because I feel as if we were never going to get anywhere with that. Even if I started posting specific pages, we'd just get into the fucking minutia of what something implies.
Oh get your head out of your ass. You ignored it because you'd rather bitch about tangential bullshit because you feel like I was calling you a gaybasher or some shit.
He mentioned diversity and Mortal Remains.
That's one of the only complaints I've seen about Mortal Remains other than how everyone loves Changelings. Then when he was reminded of the sidebar, he went on about how it was bullshit.
He said "people who have a problem with that don't play WoD". I pointed out that, no, that's not true, there are still people who have a problem with that playing WoD, several of them have posted in these threads.
Then we had the fucking run around because you people want to get defensive. My "defense" of the sidebar was barely a thing, and amounted to "stop acting like it insulted your mother". I'm barely even talking about the sidebar itself. I don't "keep defending it", I'm talking about other things, but people keep acting like I'm talking about the sidebar.
But what the fuck ever. Who's used the new rules from the corebook?
>>you started going on about how no one else sees that at all and I'm making it up despite the fact that people do complain about it at least once a thread.
>You've now been told by three people that they have not experienced this rampant homophobia and transphobia in the wodg community.
>You are either making it up, or you are in some shitty fucking circles.
I dunno. I get some pretty crazy emails about it. I've also gotten some fucking absurd boycott threats because I "keep shoving gay stuff down their throats".
Which sounds kind of hot.
I do find it weird that .03% of the text is able to ruin the whole book for people. I really didn't mean it as badly as some people are reading it. It sounds a little hyperbolic and absurd, but then again, I figured most people would get that and be chill with it. I figured wrong. It happens. Whatever. I knew I was going to get some people really upset that I was using non-standard pronouns for a character. And they were; I got a good number of threats and nonsense emails. But fortunately, for every one I got, I got five thanking me and telling me that it felt good to read. So there's that.
If I was doing it over, I might not have included the sidebar. But then again, every single book I work on, I have things I'd do differently in hindsight. That's the nature of this sort of thing.
And people talk about boycotting the harry potter movies because they don't change characters to be black. There are insane outliers on both sides of the fence.
Ditto here, really. I'm not a fan of the sidebars in question myself: They feel out of place and unnecessarily preachy to me ("Play what you want" has always been a staple of ANY roleplaying), and I think the VtR touchstone is a bit out of place compared to the rest of them, but i'm hardly frothing at the mouth over it, and that's how pretty much everyone i've actually spoken to on that side of the issue feels.
The only time I felt any political stuff actually got out of hand was the Beast leak a while ago, but it thankfully got toned down in the actual release.
But it wasn't really about "play what you want", because it was an NPC. It was about using a concept that I felt fit the character, and one you don't really see in games much (I can only think of one game before that used similar pronouns: Shock).
But yeah, I could see how it could have been seen as out of place. It happens.
As far as Beast goes, that's a weird one. I worked on it. I can see how it came together the way it did. And I can totally see, as a creator, how and why Matt responded the way he did. I don't have huge opinions either way on that.
Ironically, I did write a contentious part in Beast. The bit on using internet arguments to model the behaviour of irrational people who are still more or less realistic. It's weird that people perceived that as some thing about Gamergate or whatever; if I were going to say something about Gamergate, I'd be much less vague about it. I think that by itself, it's more benign. But when you look at it as part of the bigger whole, it looks worse. Like, when I wrote it, I hadn't read the sample Hero teenage girl or anything like that. So I really had no idea.
I did offer a battery of suggestions to address fan concerns. But I didn't push too hard, because frankly it wasn't my job. I was able to distance myself from it enough to just put my hands up. But seeing the responses, and the sheer volume and vitriol in some of them, I assume I wouldn't have responded well if I was developing it. Then again, it would have been a completely different game, so it's difficult to play what if.
I'm looking for good movies/TV Shows with the same mood, ambiance as WoD. Already watched Kindred and Twin Peaks.
My PREFERENCES, but not my NEEDS, would be something very Mortal related with horror elements, or something Werewolf related with an emphasis put on the pack social interactions/structure etc.
I mean, I'm open for many things. I gave a chance to a lot of pseudo-teen-drama-werewolf-vampire-relashionship things and I'm sick of it, but I guess I could endure it again to see if a show or movie has my needs.
Have you seen The Originals? It's a spinoff of Vampire Diaries, which is very much a teen drama. But it's nothing like that show. There's some romance plot stuff. But it's really brutal and political. It's a lot like one of the Requiem chronicles I've run. The human characters are really strong; they act a lot like Touchstones in Requiem 2e.
I'm mainly just happy the feedback was actually taken into account instead of completely disregarded, as I would expect a lot of others to do. I still think beast ended up a bit disappointing overall, but for completely different reasons.
I've taken a lot of thematic cues from Bloodbourne for my current game, and it's worked out well.
Man though, now i'm reminded of how I want to someday try running a mortal game roughly based on Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey, where the PCs are soldiers sent to investigate a bizzare natural disaster in some remote part of the world, to have it of course turn out to be supernatural fuckery, with a rival expedition from a hunter conspiracy thrown in for good measure.
That's going to be a real challenge. If you try to do global groups and the book only has 10-20, you're going to end up with the same problems Werewolf: The Apocalypse had. You'll have "the Asian group" and "the Scottish group" and when you have one group from 300 million to a billion people, it's bound to either look really milquetoast or stereotypical. It's why I ended up going with five groups for Hunter in the Edo Jidai chapter of Dark Eras. I felt it gave a broader perspective of what the Vigil is like in that region, at that time.
I hope it turns out well. Hunter 2e is one of the games I'm most excited for.
Yeah. I think Matt handled it pretty well. And quickly. That was a lot of work in a very short period, work that he wasn't expecting to have to schedule for.
>That's going to be a real challenge. If you try to do global groups and the book only has 10-20, you're going to end up with the same problems Werewolf: The Apocalypse had. You'll have "the Asian group" and "the Scottish group" and when you have one group from 300 million to a billion people, it's bound to either look really milquetoast or stereotypical. It's why I ended up going with five groups for Hunter in the Edo Jidai chapter of Dark Eras. I felt it gave a broader perspective of what the Vigil is like in that region, at that time.
>I hope it turns out well. Hunter 2e is one of the games I'm most excited for.
Deva Corp, while not a Hunter organisation is a great pattern to use, methinks.
They are a super-corp, that happens to be Indian. They have a few Indian trappings, but are mostly an international business group.
Really, what bothered me about that Touchstone example was not the homosexuality but the culture depicted by it, which I guess is a different kind of bigotry.
I also find it funny that nobody seems to complain about the lesbian marriage in the Touchstone example of you having killed one of them and now consoling the other.
>Really, what bothered me about that Touchstone example was not the homosexuality but the culture depicted by it, which I guess is a different kind of bigotry.
>I also find it funny that nobody seems to complain about the lesbian marriage in the Touchstone example of you having killed one of them and now consoling the other.
Which Touchstone? The Friends with Benefits one?
I dunno. Vampire's a game about relationships. Some of them good. Some of them bad. Some of them healthy. Most of them unhealthy. I find that one pretty tame. It's based on a relationship I had.
I don't mind showing bigotry. I don't shy away from it. I'd rather characters feel real than "ideal minorities" or whatever.
I don't really see why someone would get upset about the victim's lover one. I mean, it's a tragic story, and it's a story that's going to end worse. But that's Vampire. I imagine most Vampire readers get that and are cool with it. Also, people that are offended by the inclusion of gay characters tend to be more upset by man on man than woman on woman.
I rather dislike the SJW rhetoric and I liked the Friends with benefits one.
It included homosexuality without a qualifier or without judgement. It also didn't preach that this was the one correct way.
I'd much prefer things be inclusive by not focusing on their sexuality or gender too much.
This character is a vampire prince from Rome who rules his city from the sewers where he built an enormous bacchanal. His likes are: eating kine whole, sleeping with men and being an absolute monster otherwise.
This does, however mean that transgender characters can't really be included unless they're 'only' their theme. Because how much is it going to come up that X NPC used to be a guy but now looks completely like a woman without it being forced in?
I could see a mage losing their connection to the supernal, most likely while chasing after something man was not meant to know, becoming a sleepwalker, and getting dragged off into the Hedge for their trouble. If, and this is a big if, they manage to escape, they'd have managed to go from the Mage template to the Changeling template. From there to becoming a Sin-Eater might be impossible since there's likely no way to stop being a changeling. Having said that, the Hedge is a very big and very strange place, so there's probably something in there that could do it.
>However on the plus side, Mind Mages can't hide behind Subtle any more, and Forces Mages with significant prowess can throw lightning like it's nothing.
This makes me happy. Because, seriously. I'm a wizard. I want to throw a fucking fireball. Doubly so with all the bullshit in WoD that shits it's pants when Fire gets involved.
>This does, however mean that transgender characters can't really be included unless they're 'only' their theme. Because how much is it going to come up that X NPC used to be a guy but now looks completely like a woman without it being forced in?
...Seriously dude? You can't have a trans character without that being "their only theme?" It's not like trans people are actual people with other traits beyond being trans, nope, nuh-uh. Even if it never comes up IC, being trans would be an aspect of their character and backstory that would be IMMENSELY important to how they became the person they are.
Besides, holy crap, there are actual trans people out there! In the real world! Sometimes you interact with them in circumstances that have nothing to do with them being trans! But having one happen to show up in your game is "forcing it in?" How exactly does that work?
This is like saying "god why is there a black person in this movie, it's so forced, his whole character is just he's the black guy, he should have just been white."
What's stopping a changeling from becoming a Sin-Eater other than
>Generally speaking, once you have a supernatural template you can't become anything else.
From my understanding, they still have souls, just torn up and fixed with other stuff. I want to make this sort of legendary figure in the local lore of my campaign's setting. Maybe if my players go like "but that's not possible" I'll just direct them to the quote that essentially says story > mechanics. However, I'm genuinely curious and would like to know.
We don't actually know that Changelings DO have souls at all, though; it's possible they just have some other "thing" that's taken the place of where their soul used to be. I'd rule that even if they still have souls, that they would be too weak to withstand the process of merging with the Geist.
Really, souls are the reason why you can't stack templates in-universe, since every Major Template involves some change to the Soul -
>Mage souls are metaphysically "stronger" than normal humans due to Awakening, and resist being changed (either by burning out the change to become something else in, say, a Wolf-Blooded, or by dying rather than converting, like if a Vampire tries to embrace a Mage.)
>Changeling's lose their souls in Arcadia, and whatever they have when they come back is at least too damaged to accept change.
>Vampires have their Beast in the place where their souls used to be.
>Werewolves' souls are fused with their spiritual essence and therefore can't be modified the same way.
>Prommie's Azoth isn't really a full soul yet.
>Sin-Eaters have their Geist in there and it's not going to let anything fuck up that arrangement.
>Who even knows what a Demon's Primum is or how it works.
You can tell at a distance the color of someone's skin, you cannot tell as easily the gender or sex of someone at a distance, especially if the individual transitioned well. And that's the crux of the matter, it's hard to have a character that is trans in a game, and having it known they are trans, without it seeming forced, because if they transitioned they would have a reason to bring up their past gender, and if they haven't they would be making some effort to appear as the gender they identify as. That's not to say you can't have one, you just need to put more effort into the character to not seem forced, Joe Schmo coming up to you and saying they used to be a girl isn't gonna sit well with a lot of people, digging into private records and discovering that Jessica used to be Ricky who went to an all boy's school doesn't seem forced because, oddly enough, it was forced by the players.
...what happened to this thread?
>>Who even knows what a Demon's Primum is or how it works.
Primum is a cosmic tautology.
"I exist because I exist", basically. Angels are made of Essence. Essence can be made to represent something, which is what we call a spirit. A Demon is Essence which represents itself, which in turn makes it too fucked up to feed on other Essence any longer and therefore has to turn to Aether. Closed loop, da?
I'd say a Changeling's soul would register as "claimed" to a Geist. They still have a connection to Arcadia after all.
>Why's it that half of the Imbued's powers are paladin-ish "smite evil, lay on hands" types, but the other half are generic psychic shit? Couldn't they decide on a coherent theme?
I think it's more that they couldn't fill the space properly. And now I'm craving something a bit more like Imbued in nWoD that's not just catholic hedge magicians. Could be interesting if Demons needed to decide whether the current bright-eyed team of do-gooders they're dealing with was empowered by one of their kind or something far more enigmatic.
Good call there, anon.
You're not wrong, but I don't understand why you see this as being such a problem? I mean, obviously a GM just saying "you see this trans person" or having the character just drop the fact that they are for no reason is dumb, but that's because it's bad storytelling, not because it's "forced."
I'm not really sure what you mean by "forced," really. I feel like you're falling into that trap where any character who has a non-norminative quality (like being transgendered) is being "forced" into the story unless their status as such is somehow very relevant? Like you can't have a character who just so happens to be trans, but their status as such is only a side-note in the actual story? Because that's not being "forced", that's "accurately representing the real world." There are trans people (and people with all kind of non-norminative qualities, too) all over the place who occasionally interact with you for reasons that have nothing to do with those qualities.
>Primum is a cosmic tautology.
>"I exist because I exist", basically. Angels are made of Essence. Essence can be made to represent something, which is what we call a spirit. A Demon is Essence which represents itself, which in turn makes it too fucked up to feed on other Essence any longer and therefore has to turn to Aether. Closed loop, da?
That's... a really good explanation, thanks. I had always thought of a Demon's primum as being sort of their being "metaphysically grounded" in the world rather than as a part of the God Machine, and your concept there just gave me the last bit of explanation as to how and why that works!
Someone mistook someone's worries about expanding the international view of Hunter for complaining about the same goddamn sidebar that ends up arguing about for the whole thread, posted it, and then wouldn't back down from the argument they made. It's about that time of week though, so whatever. There's some decent conversation in there at least.
I do think there is a huge challenge in expanding the scope of Hunter, for many of DavidH's reasons. I don't want "the Indonesian Compact" or "The Geneva Conspiracy" and luckily for us, neither does Monica.
The Deva Corporation method is probably the best way to go for more international Conspiracies. I feel like Compacts should have a bit more freedom to be regionally focused, though Hunter makes it seem like they're international anyways.
Someone reminded us of that preachy sidebar that hates grammar, and everyone got sidetracked.
Think of it as a safety limit. Supernatural templates can't crossbreed, but, because humans can fuck anything, can be grafted to one (even Demons where you PLAY "the template" rather than a human affected by it, and boy do you hop around).By now they've more or less evolved to take advantage of this as much as possible, but they nevertheless so radically alter whatever it is they affect that in most cases what's left of their humanity is an easily sliding scale of "people don't do that you monster" morality comparisons.
Demons are the easiest here, because you were never human in the first place, you just wear them on TV. But a Vampire only *looks* like people. A Werewolf is some amalgamated spirit beast, not people. A Promethean could BECOME people, and after that could one day become something else, but only once he's truly become a real boy. Changelings have had their existence taken out back and cornholed by fae. They're not really human anymore either. Even mages.
There's not enough left of the human bit: It's like trying to mate a Liger with a Mule: sure, they both have mammalian DNA, but this shit just don't work no more. The invading template has nothing to grab onto and settle in.
Sleepwalker is a merit that only mortals can have, so it doesn't stack with anything.
Ghouls can access Vampire powers so are a midplate rather than a minor one, like Purified.
>how would you do transgender characters?
Why are you asking me that?
I'm very glad to hear it makes sense to you!
>Someone mistook someone's worries about expanding the international view of Hunter for complaining about the same goddamn sidebar that ends up arguing about for the whole thread, posted it, and then wouldn't back down from the argument they made.
SIGH. Every second thread
>It's about that time of week though, so whatever
Someone bought Omen Sensitivity, I see.
>The Deva Corporation method is probably the best way to go for more international Conspiracies. I feel like Compacts should have a bit more freedom to be regionally focused, though Hunter makes it seem like they're international anyways.
Indeed. Though... hmm. How would you feel about a Union variant based out of France? The Projects seem like a MASSIVE breeding ground for Nossie populations and the general climate there probably would cause people to look for alternate ways of defense.
>Someone reminded us of that preachy sidebar that hates grammar, and everyone got sidetracked.
>does Wolf-blood stack with-
Yes. Until someone takes this thing by the throat and kicks it out it stacks with virtually anything.
That always annoys the fuck out of me, and my husband (who was born female) as well. Barring the rare fabulous faggot whose entire existence revolves around being halfway, people who've changed their sex generally wish they could just get it done then and there; the fact that it takes time is one of the biggest difficulties (along with telling family).
When someone's entire character is "all about the trans", not only are they nothing but an attention whore, but often enough the only 'trans' they are is 'vestite' (if even that; they're probably just screaming about things they aren't online). It's all nothing but a way to get the spotlight on themselves, and they get off on being "the bigger zherrrrreeeeeeeeee" or whatever by calling everyone out on privileges.
Pronouns aren't for the one using it. They're for other people. It's like aircraft transponder codes. Just because you really want to be shown on there as an airbus, doesn't mean you aren't a cessna. If one day you "become" one good for you, but other people deserve proper technical information, not some invented fourth-party ID you decided was more snowflake for you.
If "being trans" is the only aspect of your personality, that means you HAVE no fucking personality, except for the one aspect you truly are: A preachy fucking douchebag.
The Sleepwalker Merit is specifically for "You're a Sleepwalker and there's nothing else metaphysically special about you". Fae-Touched, Wolf-Blooded, Ghouls, Hedge Mages, Psychics, Mediums, etc are all Sleepwalkers by default.
No, Sleepwalker means the Matri-- Abyss no longer has you(r soul). A Vampire's connection to the Abyss has been severed by virtue of no longer having a soul, same with Prommies etc.
And you thought you'd have nothing fun to read!
Sleepwalker isn't a template. It's literally just a quality that all splats and most/all mini-splats have.
The merit is purely mortal-only, because everyone who isn't a mortal is already a sleepwalker, so it's pointless for them to take it. Immortals may be an exception, I'm not sure, but splat-related mini-splats specifically are.
I know, right! This was so much fun, especially the previous thread
See, I was absent for like a year if not more. So for me this was pure entertainment because I hasn't seen it for a while
Why would you point me to the post that replied to me, with the sole instruction of telling em to look at it.
Did you think I was going to completely ignore it at first, but somehow your name would make me pay attention and read it?
Are you an idiot or infrastructure?
I played a Second Sighter trans girl. It only came up once there was a forming relationship. (This was on a chat.) and someone looked into her backstory. She was unstable in general, had mind control powers so she was a bag of crazy (not including being trans, that was the least of her craziness).
What was the rest, cutting up the bodies before feeding them to schoolchildren under the guise of a lunch program so she could embezzle public funds towards offshore accounts in favor of her private practice?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe her mind control powers stemmed from her being trans and her subsequent need to make others share her warped point of view.
Crazy and trans is a chicken and egg deal.
I'd be down for a French Union variant. The Union will probably be the hardest to internationalize since so much of it is based on the American Labor Movement, but I would not mind seeing someone take a crack at it. Hunter's always at its best when it's "blue collar", I think.
To me transgender etc. is a psychiatric issue not a social one. if that makes me shitty then so be it, but I'm not going to change my mind and neither are you. So lets just leave it at that.
Hey, you're the one who felt it necessary to to make a shitty disparaging comment in the first place. If you don't want people to call you out for it, keep your damn mouth shut, alright?
Kill List was a weird and wild movie about being inducted into a cult and there was a similarly weird contemporary british film about fairy kidnappings and dead children that i can't remember the name of right now.
No, but it doesn't make you not a reactionary attention whore, either. This isn't a debate, this is me calling you out for being a shitty internet bully trying to start shit, and I'm not engaging with you on that level.
Please kindly fuck off so we can talk about vampires and wizards and shit, thanks.
Welcome to the World Of Darkness
Some of them are basically ranked 1-5, and those you can only get five dots of. Like the Castigation merit, which you can only have five powers at a time, but can swap them out.
At least one of them (Goetic Gospels) is this weird three part ranked merit where everything costs successively more, like 1e Coils of the Dragon, where getting 1 dot in one, 2 dots in another, and 3 dots in the third costs as much as six dots.
But yeah, basically you can buy as much as you want as long as you've got Status.
I actually had a giant list at one point.
Teen Wolf (yes, they made a show)
From Dusk Til Dawn (yes, they made a show).
I've been one of the harshest critics of the Mortal Remains sidebar, but even I'm mostly bored with the topic.
I could care less if WW includes any minorities de jure in their various books, as they have done since I read Masquerade 1e, or that WW authors are generally more liberal than myself. Luckily, the majority of most books have nothing to do with contemporary political or social topics, and the SJW bits can be easily ignored if desired.
It also nice that the writers have come such a long way since the 1990's where their desperate attempts to be "inclusive" resulted in such literary abortions as WOD: Gypsies or the gross racial and national stereotypes of virtually every non-core clan in Masquerade.
All I request is, at the very least, if the authors choose to include sidebars to advocate or support their preferred causes, they have the common courtesy not to assume all their readers are troglodytes and then proceed to insult and offend them while preaching their own perceived self-righteousness, narcissistic superiority. As sidebars in some books prove, you can indeed be inclusive without being an ass.
I'm also very glad that DavidH recognizes that he probably went a little to far in Mortal Remains and would likely be more circumspect in the future. It would be very nice if Phil Brucato got the same memo.
Lastly, it's unfortunate that the perennial political arguments about WW books distracted us from the far more important matters in the last thread of guessing the subtitle for Deviant, discussing how mortals are mere monkeys compared to superior mages, and of course, making Komodo Dragon jokes about DaveB.
She had some intense daddy issues and was protective of her friends to an abnormal extent. She "saved" a friend from her father during an argument by almost killing him. Made him bash his head against something until one of them gave out.
That would be very complex.
Her powers stemmed from abuse if I remember correctly and I think SS worked on genetics too? I don't remember a whole lot because it was a long time ago.
Also, grow up.
She had a lot of other family issues more as a result of her being trans and perhaps some latent other mental issues. These were extreme cases, otherwise, she wasn't always a consistent crazy. Just that she didn't handle stress well and was quick to violence in extremely stressful situation.
I believe she also had the mind reading ability so it does things to your head constantly hearing people's innermost thoughts.
Her being trans came up but it was not a main focus. She was not a great person either way. Damaged and sad mostly, reliable as a friend, but dangerous if badly treated.
Unfortunately the chat closed down for unrelated things and I never got to really play her out.
Complex perhaps, but completely standard sociopath behavior, where the only thing wrong with any of that plan is the "totally disproportionate" consequences if caught, even though they have no right to catch you. And why would they have the right? They're not you, they don't matter. Those children are getting to eat by your grace and mercifulness, they should be fucking thanking you.
Is there any way to represent sanity loss in WoD?
My Mortals game is going to start veering into CoC territory and my players will see shit man was not meant to know. Is there a way to handle this? Like composure/resolve, fail and get a derangement?
Well, being unstable does seem like it would make someone more open to the supernatural. Hell, that seems kind of the "thing" with some Thyrsus.
>Hunter's always at its best when it's "blue collar", I think.
Ye, I love the "working man's" unions. Never mind the fact my character's probably going to end up in the Barret Commission because he's got a grudge against vampires fucking over the judicial systems.
>I'd be down for a French Union variant.
>The Union will probably be the hardest to internationalize since so much of it is based on the American Labor Movement, but I would not mind seeing someone take a crack at it.
I think if one finds the common themes without trying to make the unique ones fit other contexts forcefully it could work.
Not really. Being low Integrity in CoDa is much less punishing than low sanity in, say, DG.
I so want a burning bonds mechanic in this system.
I like to just imagine all of those others get pronounced this way instead though.
Closer to what some of those people sound like when they sperg their spechul snowflake pronouns.
>Besides, holy crap, there are actual trans people out there! In the real world! Sometimes you interact with them in circumstances that have nothing to do with them being trans!
Some of them may be in this very thread!
Spoilers: I know at least four
>You can tell at a distance the color of someone's skin, you cannot tell as easily the nationality of someone at a distance, especially if the individual integrated well. And that's the crux of the matter, it's hard to have a character that is foreign in a game, and having it known they are foreign, without it seeming forced, because if they integrated they would have a reason to bring up their past culture, and if they haven't they would be making some effort to appear as the nationality they identify as. That's not to say you can't have one, you just need to put more effort into the character to not seem forced, Joe Schmo coming up to you and saying they used to be Russian isn't gonna sit well with a lot of people, digging into private records and discovering that Mitchell used to be Mikhael who went to an all boy's school in the Ukraine doesn't seem forced because, oddly enough, it was forced by the players.
Same way you'd do any other character.
It's funny because Dave actually mentioned that you should include nonbinary people in your city write ups (if you write up a couple hundred like he does).
It's actually perfect grammar, it just happens to be using a "made up" word, but then again all words are made up (so are rules of grammar. Always remember that style guides are arbitrary, and dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive).
Just don't forget that if they do get a supernatural template, a lot of what would break a human becomes quite normal and familiar to them.
Demons for example would have to remember to pretend they're traumatized, and glitches, especially the low ones at Primum 1, may indicate he's clicked the wrong emote.
Yeah, you're fighting ghosts here. I don't mind Transgender people, at all. But imagine that you have a character that transitioned and is now perfectly happy being a woman instead of a man. How are you going to bring that up when describing an NPC in a game revolving around being a vampire? Why WOULD you bring that up if it is completely irrelevant.? Unless that is the whole point the character is included, because you wanted someone trans.
Trans characters can be included, absolutely. I just don't see a way how or why the fact that they are trans will be relevant to an NPC in a Horror game without it being tokenism and forced. Just let them be trans without bringing it up.
That's what I meant.
Isn't that exactly what that guy said?
Don't force it, let it happen naturally. Don't go this TRANS person you found sobbing in the basement was crying because she's TRANS and she was targeted because she's TRANS and she's going to turn into a TRANS Mage with TRANS powers, TRANS. Don't swing your pink rainbow-covered wang in people's faces, etc...?
>Third Paradox is slow in the year two-thousand-and-fuck-paradox.
>Why are you asking me that?
Because I am curious duh.
>Same way you'd do any other character.
If every one of your chronicles is not transrific, transtastic and just so transfabulous, you are obviously playing all wrong. Such badrongfulfun shall not be tolerated. Please report to he reeducation camp for sensitivity and diversity training.
If you want another great example of douchebags that are "TRANS" for the sake of screaming 'TRANS", check out "Chris-Chan"
If you like having a SAN score though, don't. You may have been warned, now.
>Barring the rare fabulous faggot whose entire existence revolves around being halfway
I feel like a) you're shooting yourself in the foot there, and b) you're making the same assumption about other people that they're making about your husband.
Also? Honestly when people's "entire character" is all about being trans in real life, it's because it's a defense mechanism since, well, hey, people kinda get abused, mistreated, and disrespected constantly. I mean, Martin Luther King's life was "all about the civil rights" (and cheating, and plagiarism) and no one says that was a problem. In fact, it's kind of hard to "turn it off", when you'll constantly be met with things that remind you of how second class you are. I remember someone saying how much trouble they have watching Justice League now after becoming feminist, because while the show is better than most, it's still got really awkward aspects, like women sexily doing things when no one is around to watch them, or when they're mad. When everything reminds you of a problem that is deeply systemic in society, yeah, why would you ever be able to "turn off" your ability to care? (And why is caring a bad thing?)
While I agree with your main idea behind pronouns (they're used by other people), so are names, but people understand why someone might get upset if their name is used wrong. The only--ONLY--argument about "fourth-party ID" pronouns is that by asking people to use them, you make that person explain what the pronoun means. And the only problem with that is it puts your friends in an awkward position, and invalidates pronoun usage by being more time consuming. And frankly that second one doesn't matter if the people you're talking to don't even question it.
You only think it's sane because you agree with it. You'll probably think my reply is insane.
I just take exception to the idea of "tokenism." You're acting like it's such a horrible thing to put a trans character in a game just because you feel like there should be one, which is creating an issue where one doesn't exist.
Like, if I'm STing, and I'm making a cast of NPCs, I'm going to make their demographics make sense based on what I know about people in the kind of social settings that they exist in. In some social settings, that means its about 100% guaranteed that at least one character is probably trans. So I'm going to feel like I should put in a trans character, because that feels right, even if that character being trans is just a note on her sheet that doesn't really ever come up, because it informs how I play her as the ST.
I mean, think of it this way - PCs in the World of Darkness are about as far out of mainstream society as you can get. And it's those spaces outside of the mainstream where you're most likely to find people with non-norminative identities. It makes less sense for you NOT to run into a few trans people in an CofD game, really.
Anyone not being able to turn something 'off' is a problem. Imagine you have one friend and every conversation turns into how fucking good chicken nuggets are when you're with him. You'd probably stop hanging out with that guy right? Because at some point in your life, you'd like to not have the same conversation about chicken nuggets again and again and again.
Everyone who is an ideological extremist is annoying as fuck to be around.
But, that's exactly what I'm saying:
Do include trans people if you want, keep it just a note on the sheet. A splash of background for those players who care about finding out.
Don't make 'being Trans' their only or defining personality trait or purpose.
>You only think it's sane because you agree with it.
That leads the entire concept ad absurdum. Please don't insult your intelligence and mine this way.
I looked him up. Terrible shit.
This whole argument is stupid, trans should be a portion of the character, but not all of it. Just one part of a multi-faceted character. An interesting problem that could come up at some point but doesn't need to be shoehorned into everything. If she/he is outed that can be a big social thing and a good fuel to some controversy.
It should be something that influences the way the character is played. Maybe she's reluctant to get into any relationships or make connections because she's afraid of rejection. Maybe she's afraid to go out to bars and on the street alone. Maybe she doesn't want to call police when she';s in trouble because they treat trans people bad. Is her ID still say whatever thing? Does it match? That nagging part in her mind doesn't go away because it's not expressly mentioned.
There are some pretty shitty things about being trans, you can't turn it off because people wont let you. There's tons of violence and legit injustice against people just trying to live their lives and they cant' just turn that off. Of course it doesn't need to be a constant conversation about it but they will constantly be thinking about it because it's a safety issue.
Same way as respecting pronouns and names is actually more safety-related than people realize. I'm not talking about xir/xe bullshit but he/she/etc. And when someone purposefully and spitefully uses the wrong pronoun/name--they open that person up to being legit physically attacked. So yes, there needs to be some conversation about that so it doesn't happen accidentally but if you need it brought up a lot you're probably being a piece of shit about it.
A lot of people talking about a lot of different things so sorry if I went off in the wrong direction there.
Women do things sexily when they want to. Or sometimes when they're used to doing it that way. Being sexy or doing things in a sexy way isn't some grand patriarchal agenda. People like to look good, people like to feel good, and sometimes, when you *are* happy with your body, you want to show it off.
And there are plenty of faggots out there. The biggest one I know is very much straight, but there's no other way to define him without multiple analytical paragraphs. He's a faggot and a bitch.
When you start attacking everything and everyone around you for perceived "triggers" and offenses, even (especially) when it's nothing but common proper english being used by someone who doesn't know "your story", the problem's no longer on their end anymore. You've become consumed by your problem.
It's important to remember that most people do not care. They don't know you, they can only go by what they see, and if that happens to be a dude, it's not a personal attack or a reason to crusade. It just means you still look like a guy. You may not want to be one, but you are, or at least appear to be, and people will treat you accordingly. Not only because it would be a lot more work to care, but because it's just as insulting and offensive to regular men and women if people feel the need to ask if you're actually MtF/FtM.
Much like how you'd rather not be reminded you were and may still rather appear to be a man. If you want to be treated as a woman, that's offensive, right? Well it's no different for everybody else. There's just a majority of people that are *not* transgendered, so if you're going to have any kind of efficient language, you go for the grammar that pisses off the least amount of people.
>I mean, think of it this way - PCs in the World of Darkness are about as far out of mainstream society as you can get. And it's those spaces outside of the mainstream where you're most likely to find people with non-norminative identities. It makes less sense for you NOT to run into a few trans people in an CofD game, really.
That's not entirely true, involves significant assumptions, and the last part effectively supports the "magical minority" nonsense that many even on the far left discarded after the 1990's.
Those who claim a non-traditional gender represent a tiny minority of all people. Assuming supernaturals represent a random or representative sampling of all of humanity, their numbers are still so infinitesimally small that it's possible, or more than likely, no trans people will be among their numbers.
If you want to include trans individuals in most or all of the supernatural groups in your chronicle, believe their inclusion adds something necessary to your own setting, and of course if someone want to play a trans character, that's certainly fine. However, assuming or demanding that people with "non-norminative identities" *must* be included due to statistical chance or mandatory diversity is ludicrous.
Well, being transgender usually stems from gender dysphoria, right? And while the guy definitely was insensitive in his way of talking about it, gender dysphoria is a psychological condition, no?
>I don't understand transgender people, but I believe what 4chan and Reddit tell me
Here. Have some actual information from scientific sources that points out how this works. Please stop whinging about pronouns.
Please don't be this guy http://thehardtimes.net/2015/11/17/nothing-really-offends-me-says-walking-embodiment-of-white-privilege/
If you can't see the problem in comparing "I want the world to stop mistreating me, and you're doing things that are indicative of the problems that I face every day (whether you realize it or not)" with someone who likes chicken nuggets...
We're talking about widespread societal issues here, not chicken nuggets--or even pot, which would have been a more reasonable comparison. Things that touch on people's lives in subtle ways but that are EVERYWHERE. The world is filled with kyriarchical institutions that oppress the less privileged, and, yes, those little bits of oppression can turn up in places as innocuous as a children's cartoon because no one questions it or points it out.
To bring it back to WoD, it's literally Infrastructure. Some people can see it, some people can't. You don't get to "turn it off" no matter what.
Here's a completely non social justice civil rights example: Learning a craft.
Once you learn how the hot dog is made, you can't unlearn that. And people who learn how video games or movies or whatever are made will always see the strings. They'll sometimes be unable to enjoy a movie's cinematography because they're meta-analysing how amazing the cinematography is. They can no longer have the layman's enjoyment of a work.
(I used Demon as an example, but in retrospect maybe Mage is better).
And when the things you notice are NEGATIVE, how are you supposed to not point it out? How are you not supposed to try to change things?
Actually, I don't know how it was in Irem, but if it was similar to how things were in Egypt, it were more complicated than baseline English. True, you couldn't just make up pronouns on the spot, but you had to change your grammar based on the gender you were referring to. It's WHY you couldn't just make up new genders like that. You'll need to completely revise the language for each one, which is obviously impractical.
So a mummy would understand, it'd just think it's silly.
Can be general body dysphoria as well.
It's just as likely someone transformed(get it?) into one of the splats from their original human format would have that solved for them by this, as it is that it would cause it (the "body horror" aspect of splat characterization) in someone who was otherwise quite happy with themselves instead.
And then there's Demons, who should generally by no means give a fuck, because honestly, if you're not happy with your cover, you can literally just go out and get another one instead. *THEIR* body dysphoria might be something you see in Integrators (who want to be glorious angels again, not that wreck they're now), or the kind that start swapping out parts to get as far away from their original design as possible.
But demons can do that with relative ease, so it shouldn't cause much trauma if any at all. Any in which it does, there's a deeper problem there!
>Why the fuck is the Beast powers section so small compared to every splat, even Hunter?
Maybe it was due to the fact that the original was an author tract first and a gamebook second (Not something you want.) and the fact never got addressed when it was rewritten.
I think the fact that Beast wasn't even mentioned in the Demon POV document says a lot about it.
WTF is going on here?
I read /wodg/ to avoid the tumblr, autist, trans, SJW bullshit support group nonsense from rpg.net.
It is too much to ask that we get back to discussing CofD monsters and Komodo Dragons.
>If you can't see the problem in comparing "I want the world to stop mistreating me, and you're doing things that are indicative of the problems that I face every day (whether you realize it or not)"
Listen, if you can't turn off that shit in regular conversation, you're annoying as fuck.
I have a friend who cannot stop talking about feminism. All of her friends have cut her out of their lives because she cannot have ice-cream without a huge rant on "The Patriarchy" and "All men are Rapists and Scum".
If you can't shut up about your opinions for 5 minutes to let other people talk, people start wondering why they associate with you.
>I think the fact that Beast wasn't even mentioned in the Demon POV document says a lot about it.
That's particularly important because, if I recall correctly, Demons are the one splat that don't as a rule get along with Beasts.
I assume Beasts were not included in the DSG because it was mostly written before and apart from Beast (which has only been released as a preview with badly needed edits). However, the absence of Beasts in the otherwise terrific Demon crossover section is very unfortunate.
You misunderstand what the term "token" means. A token character is someone who only exists to fill a niche. It's patting the child on the head and saying "of course I understand" instead of actually understanding them. It's your dad saying "of course, yeah" when you ask him what he thinks of your macaroni art.
Tokenism is not actual inclusiveness, and saying that people who want inclusiveness want tokenism is missing the point so hard that it's not even in the same firing lane.
>I just don't see
Can you potentially conceive of a world where someone ELSE might see how to handle this?
Bringing up Chris-chan is like Godwin's Law. Chris-chan may or may not be trans (and honestly I am leaning towards not), but frankly they only reason they're "screaming" is because the internet constantly shoves a mic in their face. Chris-chan isn't even a douchebag, the internet is.
It's a fucking literal autistic person who's been harassed by the internet for the last decade or so. CWC is literally a broken human being, and it's 4chan's fault, and literally everything about the "CWC Saga" disgusts me on a base and fundamental level, and fuck you for bringing that up.
I could see it being traumatic if a Demon loses their first/favourite Cover. I have a Demon with a handcrafted Patchwork cover, the one that they consider the real them. If they ever had to burn it, they'd feel like they died.
Or you could just slip them in using the grammar of other pronouns. Plus, other cultures do that as well, with gendered nouns.
Frankly a lot of other countries are much better with their gender nonspecific pronouns.
Also, a lot of other countries have built in nonbinary pronouns.
Some countries also have weirder pronouns that don't refer to people with non-binary gender, but refer to things like whether something is an animate or inanimate object.
There's people in this thread telling you you're being an annoying faggot who *are* transgendered, and you're *still* telling them they don't understand and need to check their privilege.
That's exactly the kind of person that they're complaining about.
You're on the level of those 23 year old university students demanding you apologize for what they suffered during the holocaust. >Bitch you're not even fucking jewish!
And I bet you you're not 'trans' either.
I think that 'being' burned would be the more traumatic part. Your cover can be something you do get quite attached to, of course, but I think a lot of the trauma would be self loathing of the "this is my fault" variety.
>I wouldn't have been burned if I hadn't fucked up
>I wouldn't have been burned if I hadn't opened up to the wrong people
>I wouldn't have been burned if I'd made the right call there
>I wouldn't have been burned...
It's all the ifs, ifs, ifs that'll eat at you there.
We need a new CofD release for no other reason than to end this thread and actually start talking about the games again.
If anyone wants to continue these types discussions, how about going to rpg.net or tumblr.
I always take this kind of thing with a grain of salt, because "my friend won't stop talking about feminism" could mean that your friend is like the cherrypicked and out of context screenshots of tumblr seen on /pol/... OR it could mean that you're an asshole and don't like being called out on things you do that you don't feel are sexist, but probably are.
I mean, someone could say the same thing about a woman in the 50s who complained that, hey, why does the wife need to do all the cooking and never leave the house and be sexually available for her husband even when she doesn't want to?
And, again, things that people feel are normal and neutral can often be subtle aspects of power imbalance, and no raindrop thinks itself responsible for the flood.
Let's say you're a Stigmatic. You know the God-Machine controls everything. You can see the cogs. Your friends and allies are vaguely aware of the God-Machine, but they can't see it's machinations. You can tell that certain things are the result of the God-Machine. So if you realize that people only make fun of non-standard pronouns because the God-Machine wants it that way, aren't you going to want to say something about that?
I mean, after all, people stopped wearing HATS because JFK didn't wear one. People think wedding rings are an old fashioned tradition because DeBeers told them they are. People think "halitosis" is a disease because Listerine thought it would be a better way to sell floor polish as mouth wash. But if you bring those things up, someone will tell you that you're speaking crazy talk.
>You're pointing out how people are being assholes and no one likes that
I get the feeling you're just saying that to get me to shut up, but whatever :I
>And when the things you notice are NEGATIVE, how are you supposed to not point it out? How are you not supposed to try to change things?
Little things called "tolerance for other points of view" and "being an adult". Recognizing when you've found the hill to fight and die on is an important life skill. Shitheads on 4chan being WRONG is not one of those times.
I really get the impression you might be one of those people you cannot stop talking about their favorite social issues and has received fewer and fewer invitations for ice cream.
>Little things called "tolerance for other points of view" and "being an adult". Recognizing when you've found the hill to fight and die on is an important life skill. Shitheads on 4chan being WRONG is not one of those times.
If "pronouns" are the hill someone has proverbially chosen to die on, they're not only one of those people than the vast majority of everyone else in society cannot stand to be around, they've also already lost the battle.
Dude, my friends are way more extreme than me. If anything I receive less invitations for ice cream because I'm not well read on obscure radical anarchist philosophers of the 18th century.
Are you familiar with the webcomic Sinfest?
Because the writer's newfound obsession with an ideology was exactly what ruined his webcomic for many, many readers.
(also that analogy is straight out of his webcomic)
You need to be able to shut up about your 'strong opinions'. You just drive away people that are inclined to care and people that were never inclined to care still don't. The only people you please with not shutting up about a topic, are the people that already agree with you.
More like OH SHIT RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN ISTHATAHOBOHEREYOUWANTTENBUCKSJUSTSIGNTHISGOODGOOD RUNRUNRUNRUNRUNRUNHIDEHIDE*COVER*
although the success of this reaction/plan by that point often leaves a lot to be desired.
Recognizing that others may be more extreme or unpleasant than yourself is not evidence that you aren't extreme or unpleasant. It's only a acknowledgment that other people can be even worse.
I had a player in a Demon game use that Embed that lets you get something stuck in someone's head to put that song in the head of anyone chasing them as a distraction.
It worked, too.
Oh man. I'm dying here.
OH, HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT, LET'S TALK ABOUT GEIST INSTEAD.
So I'm trying to get a base template prepared so that people could theoretically play a Sin-eater character (with no powers) in a game, but I'm having trouble (as usual). A lot of the Threshold traits are pretty vague, or dumb, or don't really have anything to do with the manner of death and how that might make you live. So I'm trying to change that. At the same time, how someone died isn't really all that big a thing for how they died.
One thing I'm having trouble with is the Torn and Silent, since in many ways they're similar. Both Torn and Silent are front and center as groups where their death was CAUSED by someone else. I actually wrote the Torn up to kind of be like this thread. Radical, loud, anti-violence but also willing to fight. They're basically the group from the Last Round in VtM:B, and I had both Damsel and Skelter's dialogue in mind while I was writing it up.
The problem comes in that the Silent are also kind of DONE to them. It's another condition caused by societal issues. I'm playing up the whole thing where Silent aren't JUST people who starved, but also things like suicide, overdoses, and alcoholism. Basically, the Silent died with a hole that they couldn't fill, and usually that hole came from something societal in many cases, like bullying or feeling weak. But the original Silent are also set up to STILL be quiet, even after their deaths. On the one hand I'm not sure why (after all if my death came because I didn't speak up, I'd start shouting in my second chance) but I'm also not sure how to change it without retreading on the Torn.
I'm thinking that maybe while my quintessential Torn is Damsel if she died at a student protest, my quintessential Silent is basically... shit, the girl from Watamote? Trying to be popular even if making a scene and getting friends is hard for you (I haven't seen Watamote, but that's the impression I get). Basically shy girl trying to be popular.
Forgotten. And yeah.
I'm probably going to change the Stricken and Prey a bit as well.
Prey always struck me as odd, because their schtick is that they're obsessed with patterns. It never really fit with their deaths to me, other than a bit about how maybe it's because their deaths were so random. Instead, I'm going to focus on them generally being survivalists. Maybe a sort of shamanistic thing (and on that note I wonder if they should have stuff to do with Spirits, and if I should make a new Key for dealing with Spirits).
Stricken have this vague sense of fighting nature, judging from other people's quotes about them, but I'm tempted to go with more of a Ventrue route. They exemplify the Horseman of Conquest, after all, and they survived being conquered. They held out.
That makes the exact opposite of sense.
>Initial Concept and Design:
First name on the page
Always to blame
My only problem with the whole pronoun thing is it turns talking to people into a total clusterfuck if everyone has their own special pronoun. At that point it would be better for everyone if we just gutted all non-neutral pronouns from the language and started using people's names in place of pronouns.
Also no zhe or xir. Z and x are the twisted freaks of the alphabet (as demonstrated in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAeZJGXFikE) and shouldn't be used for a pronoun because they don't have a good mouth feeling. An f or l starting pronoun would flow much easier.
Any monosyllabic sound really works as a pronoun. It's not like we'd need to drop pronouns, just teach that pronoun use is a lot of context, like everything else in the language. And it's not like English isn't already a stupidly complex bastard, so if anything that makes it easier.
>Not liking z
What are you, British?
No. No. Stop it. That conversation is over. Let's talk about ANYTHING ELSE. LET IT DIE.
What are some fun ways for an influental vampire being blackmailed by the players to subtly fuck with them while he bides his time, seeming to go along with their demands until they slip up?
Why do you hope not?
>She was a seven-time MMA champion before she gave up her violent, aggressive lifestyle and became a game designer for White Wolf
How influential are we talkng? Cause if they're very influential, he could fuck with their mortgages and rent. Bank errors, small little mistakes that can't be traced back and clear up quickly, but are just enough to make the person feel in peril for their future. Small attempts to intermingle the blackmailer's supernatural lives with their mundane lives, stuff like that.
>seven-time MMA champion before she gave up her violent, aggressive lifestyle
If everyone has their own pronoun they essentially have a second name. People already get uncomfortable when I can't remember their name, I don't want them to get offended by forgetting their pronoun because my memory is complete shit.
What I'm saying is it just opens the door for more social fuckups. It would be nice to either have a gender neutral pronoun or get the singular "they" accepted though.
This is really only tangentially WoD related, but apparently there's a whole bunch of relatively high quality anime style Person of Interest art of the characters Root and Shaw.
Kind of makes me want to watch the show but I bet I'd be disappointed when the lesbian BDSM undertones are barely even subtext
Of course, there's also fanart where the two guys are married.
I wouldn't have expected Person of Interest to be big in Japan. Or China, considering that's where one of the artists is from.
Actually... China kind of makes sense.
People also get uncomfortable when you can't remember their pronoouns. And if you think that's limited to trans people, try calling the cableguy "ma'am" because of his long hair.
>seven-time MMA champion
Champion of what? I'm a little dubious of this claim without any references to the organization she participated in. Also, 'seven time'? If she competed professionally then does that mean she held and defended her title seven times or is there some kind of bracketed competition MMA leagues that she won the championship of seven times?
>And if you think that's limited to trans people, try calling the cableguy "ma'am" because of his long hair.
So a momentary mistake that would, between reasonable people, be fixed with an apology and going with the right pronoun for that point? But that isn't how it works in tumlbrina land is it? The smallest infraction against someone's perceived gender is a hellworthy trespass that gets you ridiculed, compared to nazis and from that point labeled a bigot never to be thought of as anything else ever again.
>being this mad on an imageboard
Chris-chan isn't even trans, he has no idea how humans work and is just severely autistic. Bringing him up is pointless
Good shows get a fanbase anywhere, who would have guessed. Of course, so do really bad things, or else we wouldn't get this film with a plot line straight from the WoD: https://youtu.be/XAaPx501Dog
That film no one knows about?
Also, it's just weird because I've really only heard of Person of Interest since it came on because of Demon. It came on, I might have watched an episode, then I never really heard about it again until Demon. But apparently it's got that big a fanbase and is doing the SuperWhoLock thing of shipping Tumblrs and fanarts.
So DavidH has released a lot of new micro-templates for Hurt Locker. What other kinds of near mortals would you guys have liked to see? I want to say Hedge Magician but I feel like that needs something more robust than a selection of merits. Same with Skinchangers, I actually loved that book and would like to see the template come back. Just polish and streamline it and it doesn't need its own book, just a few goods pages.
I dunno, I think hedge wizard could work fine if you added in something more along the lines of say....creating magical items from a REAL source of magic, and then using them in that way. You don't learn how to actually throw fire or call down lightning, instead you subvert a well of magic and infuse a rod with fire to spray it 'for' you. I've always been a fan of suborning fonts of real magic to the end of faking it, myself.
>People also get uncomfortable when you can't remember their pronoouns. And if you think that's limited to trans people, try calling the cableguy "ma'am" because of his long hair.
The less pronouns their are, the less likely you are to fuck up. Either add a third pronoun or shrink it down to one, but don't expand it out to the point where talking in the third person becomes a nightmare.
>it's 4chan's fault Chris-chan is the way he is
He was an asshole way before the chans got involved and you completely ignore how a lot of trolls actually tried to influence his life for the better but got ignored because chris-chan thinks he's perfect in every way. But sure, it's the evil internet's fault
Also, no. I will not be trying to insert made up pronouns that made no sense into my native language. We have he, she and it. Anything else would be forcefully trying to insert shit that does not make sense.
>The God Machine is The Patriarchy
oh god no, you can't do this to me, I am dying
That upcoming Neil Breen film, yes. Dude's slowly getting a Tommy Wiseau-esque reputation.
And is that really a surprise? Person of Interest is a really popular mainstream TV show. It airs on CBS, even, the Old People Network. If you maintain even a modicum of quality on network TV, you get a fandom, guaranteed.
All the examples I want are ultimately stuff that could fit into other splats, like Astral Travellers/Lucid Dreamers. Maybe Faith Healers or something?
bout to start a game of Vampire. I'm playing an urban ranger type vampire.
Help me with my gear list. Here's the current list
Collapsible bow able to fire "trick arrows" (IE: grappling lines)
City maps (with hiding/hunting spots)
Pet rats (can speak to/command animals)
Backpacks (one large, one small)
Several pairs of shoes stolen from warehouses
Secure/long range walkie talkies
What else does a good urban ranger/rogue need?
Oops, sorry, didn't see that the argument was over.
In Russian it really doesn't. I can kinda see it in English. The only thing I can think of that will work is plural you. But that one is used for politeness only and would sound weird as well.
Hedge wizardry requires more than the few pages devoted to the micro-splats in Hurt Locker.
DavidH is great with CofD Merits and mechanics, and I would very much like to see him (along with others like Chris Allen) update Second Sight for 2e, but would similarly hate WW trying to squeeze-in the material where it might not belong and not doing the material the justice it deserves.
Mage might be the best line to revise and include hedge wizard material. Now that the Orders include Sleepwalkers like lesser supernaturals, psychics and Fallen sorcerers, it would be a great fit.
I hate this argument because it shows a lack of understanding about how language works.
I meant that I didn't know Person of Interest was even that mainstream.
It does if people constantly follow bullshit guides that "singular they is grammatically incorrect". Not how language works.
Which is also why singular They was some dictionary's word of the year.
>>The God Machine is The Patriarchy
If the God Machine is The Patriarchy, then I, for one, welcome my new (old?) patriarchal overlords.
BTW, doesn't "The Patriarchy" really sound like a lesser Ministry of the Exarchs?
If you're a male Seer, such a Ministry sounds pretty good. The whores must be top notch.
Using "it" would be extremely rude though
And how does language work? I know that you should never force something into the language and let it develop naturally as society develops.
gotta go now, will check the thread in like 4h
A Nolan is an executive producer for it, that's as mainstream as it gets. The mainstream's wider than it used to be, though, so a lot ends up going under the radar, especially if you're only tuned into the "nerdy" sides of pop culture.
All language is made up, and saying something makes no sense is dumb. "Crocodile" didn't make sense at one point. A couple hundred years ago they sounded nothing like we do today. Generally, people only find a word "forced" if they don't like it.
Matriarchy doesn't have the same connotations as patriarchy and isn't an exact parallel, and both oligarchies and monarchies actually are capable of not being oppressive.
The Exarchs are oppression. That's their schtick. They hold humanity down. They are THE MAN that every 90s protagonist was against.
>The mainstream's wider than it used to be
That's definitely true. I saw a link to an article of "Youtube celebrity talks about being abused by his girlfriend [also a Youtube celebrity]" and didn't know who the hell either of them were. My dad also knew who some singer at the Super Bowl is/was and I had never heard of her. Pewdiepie apparently has the largest Youtube channel and I'd never heard of him until someone did a parody video.
It's getting weirdly easy to not know "famous" people.
Goddamnit get out of here you stupid three eyed hermaphrodite nazi.
THE MAN is not "the patriarchy", THE MAN is the US government. AKA bureaucratic corporate oligarchs.
"the patriarchy" is that zion-like nebulous entity we're told we're somehow all a part of just for having a penis, that meets weekly in secret steakhouse mancaves and plans the regression of women's rights back to "chained fucktoy except for a few hours when its giving birth" except this time with more rape.
>both oligarchies and monarchies actually are capable of not being oppressive.
i think we've had enough out of you, royalist.
My god, Riverdale is infrastructure. I knew it! The Lynchpin must be Jughead's crown!
The problem with "letting the language develop naturally" is that even for less politically active areas of language, that's not a real concept. Language is developed and decided upon in equal measure by academia and street, and every change is always met with scorn or derision from one of those sources, and they clash often. Look at the people still arguing about the Oxford Comma in English, for example. Humanity's capacity for language and communication is natural, but the actual expressions themselves are a construct, controlled to various degrees by society to maintain proper understanding.
On a more WoD note, The Invisibles had it so that the English Language itself was developed out of a demon named ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. It was a pretty cool issue.
THE MAN is whoever the 90s hero is against.
Also, no, that is not what the patriarchy is, and that's why people now use the term kyriarchy more often.
Ever read Hack/Slash? They actually have an Archie inspired issue where the whole town was bright and colourful and also secretly Lovecraftian.
>On a more WoD note, The Invisibles had it so that the English Language itself was developed out of a demon named ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. It was a pretty cool issue.
In MGSV, human language comes from the original form of the vocal cord parasites.
Also, the whole language as a virus thing is REALLY cool and I wish they'd been able to explore that more, because the concept of linguistic determinism is fucking crazy.
Here's the Idea Channel episode about it, but Tom Scott on Youtube also has a video on it.
I don't know if they were taking it seriously, I didn't read the article. If I don't read the article, I get to pretend that they were, though. This seems to be the article
>Language is developed and decided upon in equal measure by academia and street
Academia has far less influence than they believe or claim, regardless of whether the issue is language or anything else. Academia is simply a convenient forum that just complains the loudest and often functions as a resting place for those who cannot fit into the mainstream or anywhere else.
>Oxford Comma in English
You'll need to pry my Oxford Commas out of my cold dead hands.
>both oligarchies and monarchies actually are capable of not being oppressive.
This is the wrongest thing you have ever said in these threads, and you have said many wrong things. The fact that you can argue until you're blue about social topics (stuff you're actually not wrong about for the most part) and then spout that boggles my goddamn mind.
Yeah, usually people online will argue retarded shit like "women can't rape men. If she drugged, tied and fucked him while he was unconscious, HE raped HER. There was penetration without consent, that makes HIM a rapist. All men are rapists and he's just further proof of it."
>Mage would be the worst line to revise hedge wizardry. It'd just turn something interesting and unique into an underpowered sprinkling of Atlantean magic.
Hedge magic IS little more than under-powered Atlantean magic.
Mages in 2e are also the splat most likely to regularly deal with and socially incorporate the widest variety of lesser templates.
>that's why people now use the term kyriarchy more often.
Who are these people?
Do they exist outside of sociology and anthropology departments on college campuses or fringe radical leftest groups (to the extent the former and latter do not substantially overlap)?
People will cite academia if they agree with it, ignore it if they don't.
For instance: Ze isn't a real word, but "ugh, hashtag is in the dictionary?"
Literally every government is by definition an oligarchy, and there are several real world constitutional monarchies that aren't inherently oppressive. Britain's elected government does more to oppress the poor than the Queen does.
>Implying it's a feminist thing
No, people think that men can't be abused because if you get abused by a woman you're not a real man. Men will deny other men were raped, or humiliate them for being raped. Or worse "dude, why wouldn't you want that?"
No, I mean the part where they were in Archie style world.
Also, she's not a whore, and Hack/Slash is awesome.
Until all characterization is thrown out the window and the main character's confusion over her sexuality is thrown out the window for her to fall in love with a literal fucking serial killer. I sort of lost interest when she stopped wanting to kill Samhain and started wanting to bang him.
And yet it is still academia that hashes out lesson plans and how one studies language. Though you're right, the street has a bit more power over language these days. And the Oxford Comma is precious and must be protected. It is the cinnamon bun of our bastard language.
When I think hedge magic I think curses and charms. Lots of effort for a small benefit that is otherworldly in origin. It doesn't need to be tied to or associated with Awakened magic. That just cheapens it, makes hedge magicians defacto lackies and patsies of the bigger template. I can already see the That Guy mage player (as if there were any other kind) seeing the hedge wizard character do a ritual and be like 'Piffft, lemme show you some real magic. Nothin' personal, kid.'
>Do they exist outside of sociology and anthropology departments on college campuses or fringe radical leftest groups (to the extent the former and latter do not substantially overlap)?
Jesus, no. And there are also parties within radical leftist groups actively fighting against switching out "patriarchy" for "kyriarchy".
In an issue where Robert Kirkman guest stars there's a serial killer attacking a convention. He asks what they should do and she jumps him and tries to pull his dick out saying 'Well sex draws out slashers!'
>It is the cinnamon bun of our bastard language.
It's cinnamon roll. And also, a great example of language being crafted.
Started as a dumb Onion article and then Tumblr took a hold of it as a meme and now it's basically entered the vernacular.
>And yet it is still academia that hashes out lesson plans and how one studies language
My God, how did oral and written language and culture advance for centuries, if not millennia, without lesson plans and college professors?
>people bitching about the unbalancing of Arcana in MtAw 2e
>Meanwhile in Ascension there was never any sense of balance and Forces Mages were gods upon the battlefield
Seriously guys, it's fine. Mage is a game of creativity, you don't need to worry about balance when everyone is broken.
>people bitching about the unbalancing of Arcana in MtAw 2e
>bitching about MtAw 2e
it's not out yet, the actual arcana they're complaining about have not been spoilered, and these people are idiots
Since we're talking about SJW cringe-worthy horseshit has anyone else been unable to see straight for rolling their eyes so much at some of the responses to the latest Hunter Dev post? I thought the Ashwood Abbey post brought out the slouched shrieking ideologues but this whole idea about 'toning down the glorification of murder'? Seriously give me a fucking break, the game is called 'hunter' and you're not bagging squirrels here. Maybe, just maybe, I want to play a game that isn't about talking politely with a fucking God-Machine murder angel on stilts with a body that shits out pickle brine and battery acid?
>>Meanwhile in Ascension there was never any sense of balance and Forces Mages were gods upon the battlefield
Feature, not a bug!
I just don't get why people don't understand something so simple...
Well for one it was a lot less standardized than it is now, so it advanced in completely different and barely comparable ways. In fact, in the olden days if you wanted to make up words no one gave you shit. They'd probably pretend they knew what you were talking about. Or figure it out from context.
I haven't really seen anyone complaining about that...
Not really. If you have five choices, and one of them can do ten things while everything else does two, most people will go for the first. That's bad imbalance.
Now, if Forces lets you be amazing at combat, but other things let you be amazing at things that people would realistically want to be amazing at, that's different.
>roleplaying gamers caring about characters being amazing at anything other than combat
>the game is called 'hunter' and you're not bagging squirrels here
Shhhh,... Speaking of the Squirrel Gods only brings pain and misery.
More seriously, Monica seems nice and definitely wants the best for Hunter 2e. However, I fear her strong desire for input and consensus, rather than expressing a clear vision and leadership, will result in a boring and souless "game by committee," particularly since those who comment and are the loudest hardly represent the entirety of the fanbase.
Hunter has always been about the danger of getting too into the "killing" part of the job and forgetting about the "protecting people" part. One of the main thrusts of Slasher is that anyone, and Hunters in particular, can succumb to bloodlust to the point that they forget about anything besides killing, reasoning be damned.
Hunter isn't about being a gleeful murderhobo, it's about taking up a grim duty.
I think it is literally impossible to have all the Arcana follow a design paradigm and have them all be equally useful. Unless you expand or trim the scope of Arcana in arbitrary and unintuitive ways, there will always be Arcana that are more generally useful. That being said, the situations you find yourself in, in the CofD are varied enough that even that can differ greatly from Chronicle to Chronicle.
Gamers care about character abilities besides rampant physical destruction in combat.
It's always important to ensure your character has sufficient proficiency in mind control.
Whenever a player makes a murder machine, the game gets awfully social.
If you don't like that, comment more. But mostly I feel that her asking for input makes sense, since Hunter has always been the most toolkitty of toolkit games. She's also designed games before (she did some of the Margaret Weiss games, though I don't know which). Those are all surprisingly well done, for licensed games.
I think you're wrong. Hell, for the most part all the Arcana ARE useful, because they all tend to focus on different things that a character could want to do.
I'm more concerned that she's still in just the spit-balling stage. I've yet to hear anything about where she plans to take the book other than 'the same but more diverse, because it's important to have token minorities and ethnicities represented even if it doesn't make any narrative sense'
You know what Hunter 1e had mostly Western European and American conspiracies? Because the first world has the luxury of shadow groups that devote themselves to fighting wars behind the scenes. Ask a child militiaman in Liberia what he thinks about the zombies attacking his village and he'll just shrug and say 'another target to shoot'. He doesn't need a complex bureaucracy that eases his transition into the traumatic world of the supernatural, the natural world is traumatic enough for him.
From my experience, they tend to by high Wyrd semi-gentry. Like an Autumn King is going to be fucking Jack Skellington, a Summer Queen is going to be the Red Queen from Alice in Wonderland. Shit like that.
>I think you're wrong. Hell, for the most part all the Arcana ARE useful, because they all tend to focus on different things that a character could want to do.
There's also some overlap in the Arcana, and it's easily possible to achieve many of the same basic effects with any number of Arcana.
>You know what Hunter 1e had mostly Western European and American conspiracies? Because the first world has the luxury of shadow groups that devote themselves to fighting wars behind the scenes. Ask a child militiaman in Liberia what he thinks about the zombies attacking his village and he'll just shrug and say 'another target to shoot'. He doesn't need a complex bureaucracy that eases his transition into the traumatic world of the supernatural, the natural world is traumatic enough for him.
first off, the third world is not a constant, unending war. People have time for peace and time to live like people everywhere, even in conflict zones. You're being way reductive.
Second, third world countries in the midst of war or strife or government breakdown are in even greater need of shadowy cabals of hunters on a Vigil. Chaos is a GREAT breeding ground for the armies of the night, the average militiaman isn't going to even realize that vampires are preying on his village before they come for him alone in his home.
Hunter organizations offer organization, knowledge and mutual protection, something that people completely without the protection of governments or the rule of law need, especially if werewolves are attacking.
If games aren't largely focused on combat / combat related things then why are 98% of all powers and abilities designed around and judged by their combat utility?
You're wrong. Hunter can just as easily be a revenge story with no heed paid to protecting others. It is neither implied nor mechanically enforced that a hunter must be a superhero, they can be a single-minded killer who devotes their every waking moment to finding and murdering their prey. The only difference between them and a serial killers is that there's technically no law against murdering vampires and when they decompose or ash themselves postmortem you don't have to explain anything.
'gleeful murderhobo' is a strawman, I could just as easily say Hunter isn't about being 'grimderp not!Batman.'
That's some people's fetish. Which really just pushes the buck. And also implies that a man can't be raped by a woman "out of his league". If the hottest woman on the planet pushes you down and rides your dick, that's still, you know, rape.
No one wants "token" minorities. But since people outside of the US *DO* play CofD, they would clearly like to be represented in some way. I mean, shit, Dracula is focusing on Europe for the WoD going forward because, hey, that's where he lives. Meanwhile Americans are complaining about Degenesis because they'd like to play Americans.
Also, everything that >>44798791 said with the added notion that America and the UK are not the only first world countries.
The Iraq setting for werewolf is interesting for this. It's a relatively modern city in the middle of a warzone
>If games aren't largely focused on combat / combat related things then why are 98% of all powers and abilities designed around and judged by their combat utility?
... because they're not? How does being able to make a gryphon for reals that gives birth to other gryphons combat utility?
>Hunter can just as easily be a revenge story with no heed paid to protecting others.
No it's not. Hunters are people who got their revenge and keep going. If Batman killed Joe Chill and put up the cowl, he wouldn't be a Hunter. He's a Hunter because it's NOT about Revenge.
>It is neither implied nor mechanically enforced that a hunter must be a superhero
They have mechanical benefits that the average human being does not. Risking Willpower means that they're capable of more than a normal human.
If my game is set in Chicago or even Berlin, why would I want or need someone whose character is from the regional Bantu tribe Compact? Or the Brazilian slave culture Compact? It smacks of the sort of special snowflake tokenism that made oWoD unbearable.
If your game is set in Berlin, why would you need or want someone whose character is from the American Union Compact? Or the former Nazi Compact? Or the rich Scottish Compact? Or the FBI Compact? Or the middle-American Presbyterian Compact?
>If games aren't largely focused on combat / combat related things then why are 98% of all powers and abilities designed around and judged by their combat utility?
Because if you lose an argument or are not good at crafts, you usually don't bleed-out from a gaping wound or end up as lunch for some creature of the night.
The CofD is a dangerous place. Survival skills and abilities are important above all else.
>But since people outside of the US *DO* play CofD, they would clearly like to be represented in some way
Why do they need to be represented? Shouldn't Compacts/Conspiracies be created based on good ideas rather than trying to shoehorn in other cultures just to be diverse? That's the part I hate about it, and it's like >>44798962 says, it leads to the sort of cringe-worthy efforts at bringing in other cultures that cWoD did and no one wants a repeat of that.
>America and the UK are not the only first world countries
Of course not. We never forget Canada and Australia. There's a small fringe that will even include some of western Europe.
Except that there are already Orgs that don't make sense in certain settings. And not all good ideas come from America or the UK.
Whoops. Yeah, Thule actually would fit in Berlin.
Immigrants and games not set in the US and Europe, for one. You can have Compacts and Conspiracies based in other parts of the world without resorting into tokenism. Earlier in the thread, we brought up Demon's Deva Corporation as an example of how to have a more international scope without going "no see, they're exotic which means they're special!" It's not like we have to make a hard choice between "only the first world gets to be anything higher than Tier 1" and "I am 90s white guilt man, please enjoy my special snowflakes".
To play the devil's advocate, monsters have been around a LONG time, and before Globalization, each region must have had their own groups devoted to protecting mankind, so wouldn't they likely be based around those cultural areas?
I mean, I couldn't give less of a fuck about an Aboriginal Australian Company, but it would make sense for there to be one.
Sure, hunters don't need to be heroes. that's not something I dispute, many example hunters have been "bad people." but the books emphasize over and over again, both in mechanics and in fluff, that killing takes a psychic toll on a hunter, and that the "single-minded killer" types tend to go insane or devolve into slasherdom pretty quickly. The tension between "Am i doing all this killing and violence to defend [the innocent/the country/the neighborhood/my reputation/my family/my business] or do I just really, really like killing?" is an important one in Hunter games. It makes for good drama!
I don't mind hunters who are killers, but I do mind believing that Hunter ever "glorified murder" or glorified violence in general is pretty misdirected. Violence was always given pretty hefty weight in hunter.
>And not all good ideas come from America or the UK.
Never said they did, but will you at least agree that the designs should be based on good concepts rather than just being diverse? Is it really so important to have a Captain Planet situation? I can already see the dull beige coat being applied to this game, we'll be lucky if we get any real Compacts and not just 'themes' that can be skinned to any region. Ugh, or even worse they make another snide political jab and make a point to have as few or no Anglo-American compacts / conspiracies.
You can have a good idea and have it be in another culture. No one has to choose on this. People can make cool, diverse things without the fear of the 90s creeping over their shoulder. For one thing, we have far better research.
I'm not saying these groups don't exist, but in a book that's supposed to give me interesting narrative options for stories I'm going to participate in, is it really so important to name drop every culture with their own when that's book space that could be devoted to an interesting compact? I don't care where it's from so long as it's something I'd be interested in playing for a reason other than the people in it share my skin color, language and/or culture.
>It's not one or the other, stop freaking out. The book hasn't even been written yet.
Very true, but Monica has definitely made her priorities and development style quite clear.
Although I shall remain cautiously optimistic, a meh "game by committee" or the inclusion of "magical minorities" is certainly still an unfortunate possibility.
Especially if she pays greater heed to the voices coming out of the OPP forums or rpg.net, they were battering at the gates to have the Ashwood Abbey excised completely from the game in favor of 'a new diverse group' with no further explanation needed or asked for, they just locked onto the word 'diverse' and were ready to throw out one of the most popular groups in the gameline.
>ready to throw out one of the most popular groups in the gameline.
I'd call Ashwood Abbey a popular subject of discussion, but certainly not one of the most popular groups generally. I think they're interesting but I think I've heard of exactly one game where someone actually PLAYED them.
>I think you're wrong. Hell, for the most part all the Arcana ARE useful, because they all tend to focus on different things that a character could want to do.
I never said they are not useful. I am saying some are more generally useful than others.
I think the answer for more diversity in HtV has already been introduced in 1e; regional offshoots of existing ones. Do we really need a full write-up for what's essentially 'China's TFV'? A few flavor paragraphs and you're golden.
The Deva Corporation. Based out of the family of the Pain Prophet of New Delhi. Again, we brought this up earlier in the thread. You've expanded the scope, you bring in a country that doesn't get a whole lot of play in a lot of nWoD games, and you did it without being embarrassing. Voila.
We can learn from the 90s, we can avoid being the 90s, but we can't go around panicking over it and become afraid to try new things just because of it. You've got to learn to go for things without fear of failure.
She's said in her posts "this isn't a vote. I want to hear what you think, but that won't make things happen, and I have final say". Monica's an experienced designer, not a doormat. There's still going to be a design phase where other writers will have a say, and this will almost certainly be more important than what Johnny B said on a goddamn blog comment. I'm not gonna say that we shouldn't worry about it a little, but I just don't see any red flags, just potential yellow ones.
>It's not like we have to make a hard choice between "only the first world gets to be anything higher than Tier 1" and "I am 90s white guilt man, please enjoy my special snowflakes".
No, clearly those are the only options.
>It's not like we have to make a hard choice between "only the first world gets to be anything higher than Tier 1" and "I am 90s white guilt man, please enjoy my special snowflakes".
>No, clearly those are the only options.
The empirical evidence from over 20 years of WW products is not encouraging.
On the flip side, one important issue with this rhetoric is whenever race, gender, sexuality, and/or etc. may end up being the sole criteria of judging/assessing/thinking about/treating someone (or even an entire group/demographic) rather than him or her as an individual person upon the basis of her or his individual actions. One example of this problem may be found with Bahar Mustaf; in regards to her actions & arguments for them in the London Goldsmiths University as its Diversity Officer, this being where she segregated what should have been a diversity meeting and denied that she was being racist & sexists in the process. Granted, this type of behavior may (and perhaps most likely) reflect merely an extreme within said rhetoric—though it remains none-the-less highly concerning due to such an act being reflective of past eras where fewer rights existed. From this I have a question: How common is this type of behavior (i.e. what was seen with Bahar Mustaf’s actions as the given example) and how influential is it among those who argue for this rhetoric (i.e. social justice)?
Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I’d like to out front state my own political stance in brief. Above all else I hold immense importance upon both liberty and human rights. As far as I am concerned we are all human beings possessing rights, I consider people on the basis of individuals (not judging solely upon race & etc.) and by said individual’s actions. I leave it to history for demonstrations of what happens when both liberty and human rights are abandoned, and in turn why it is so vital for our well-being that they are defended.
With that out of the way, I have a question which is actually pertinent to this thread: What are the supplements for the second edition of Mage: The Awakening going to cover? I'd also like to say I love this new emphasis upon seeking mysteries and their potential peril in the game.
>What are the supplements for the second edition of Mage: The Awakening going to cover?
Only two supplements have been announced, Signs of Sorcery and Tome of the Pentacle.
SoS will probably be equivalent to Tome of Mysteries for 1e, and include information on artifacts, imbued items, perfected metals, familiars, yantras, and other assorted magic miscellania, including storyteller advice about the process of Awakening.
Writing hasn't even begun on TofP, but it appears that it will primarily, and unsurprisingly, include expanded information about the Pentacle Orders. Dave also mentioned there will be significant setting material for New York City and possible other locales.
Deva Corp. Most of the foreign settings in the chronicle books. Hell, most of the Orgs in the Edo Jidai. Habibti Ma. Hell, the closest things get to "the 90s creeping" is Ascending Ones.
Shit, one of the most stereotypical Conspiracies is based on Catholicism.
Nevermind that you don't even seem to notice all the Conspiracies and Compacts that AREN'T Americentric, like the Ashwood Abbey (Scotland), Malleus (Vatican), Cheiron ("European", though Edward Barrett implies British), Lucifuge (Italy), Aegis Kai Doru (Mediterranean), Null Mysteriis (Parisian), Loyalists (German). I don't have hardcopies of the supplements to leaf through, but: Knights of Saint George (Anglican), Les Mysteres (Hispanic), Habibti Ma and Faithful of Shulpae (Egyptian)...
No it's not, grow up.
Several groups ban them.
Not being the center of the world frightens them.
>in a book that's supposed to give me interesting narrative options for stories I'm going to participate in
Pretend that you're not American and you don't want to set your story in America. All of the groups are talked about in the context of America, so you have no idea what you're supposed to do. This book clearly wasn't written for you, you're just a periphery demographic.
Now imagine you're one of the writers, and you have a chance to write about your country's monster hunters. Do you forget about that, because "this book is for Americans" or do you write something up that includes you and people from where you are?
That's what's going to happen. This is very unlikely to be like oWoD where people are writing about Hong Kong without having so much as looked at the Wikipedia page (because that didn't exist).
"Calm your tits" is not "defensiveness", and that you feel other people are getting defensive makes you come off as pretty defensive.
Except that OPP has shown they're more than capable of not doing that.
Signs of Sorcery is going to basically be Tome of the Mysteries 2: Now You Don't Need This Book To Actually Play The Game. Methods of looking at the Awakening, the magical tools and rituals Mages use to get the job done, magical creatures, and some more info on the 2e version of the Supernal.
Tome of the Pentacle is going to be a similar book to Secrets of the Covenants in that its going to cover the Pentacle factions and their histories.
That should about cover it.
I don't think so? I tried looking for his writeup in Boston Unveiled (that's where he gets his full stat block, right?) to check but holy hell I forgot how much worse the 1e Mage Fonts are in black and white. Maybe I'm just getting old but I had a hard time figuring out where one character and cabal ends and another begins.
No, the Nemean was a huge, leonine man, with claw-like nails.
When he fought (if it wasn't with magic) he used knives.
Of course, nowadays there is no Nemean, but there is the Aswadim Arch-Master Baron Maahes, who remembers being the Nemean.
Oh, I just figured because he looks like an Arrow and also has a coat that has a mane.
>Of course, nowadays there is no Nemean, but there is the Aswadim Arch-Master Baron Maahes, who remembers being the Nemean.
Well, the Nemean got suckered by the Silver Ladder for being a tyrant (and also because he tried to find out more about the Secret Concord, now that he is old and wise enough to actually understand stuff.)
They ripped him out of his body and shut him up in his own Oneiros, in the Astral.
Being a Mage, he got out of that, and in the efforts to get some control of the world, he kinda began his Seeking for Archmastery.
He finally managed it, with some help from the Old Man of the Abyss, when he devoured his own heart, in a truly ironic Seeking challenge.
The Nemean isn't an Arrow.
>>Of course, nowadays there is no Nemean, but there is the Aswadim Arch-Master Baron Maahes, who remembers being the Nemean.
nWoD doesn't have metaplot, but it does have a consistent canon for its sample characters in chapter fiction. The Nemean in particular kept showing up in chapter fiction across first edition, to the point where by the end of it he's an Archmaster.
He's named himself the Nemean because he's set himself up as a Lion (the Silver Ladder term for an abusive power-hungry tyrant as opposed to a wise advisor-leader) for some great hero to come and slay.
The fact that nobody's lived up to and overcome his challenge irks him.
That was just the goal of that persona.
The Silver Ladder orderbook establishes that he's worn many Shadow Names and personas across the course of his life. The other versions of him are pretty disgusted with the Nemean.
Has anyone else played the mmorpg called "The Secret World?" It seems VERY similar to Mage (and nwod in general). On a similar note, I highly advise at least reading a synopsis of its quests as they can easily make for good mage game session plot inspirations.
You're not making this any less complicated to understand.
I wouldn't be surprised if TSW was one of the things Dracula felt needed to be sued.
>You're not making this any less complicated to understand.
He is a powerful Mage, he isn't easy to understand.
But I dunno, for someone who started out as a junkie/drug dealer who Awakened after getting his ass kicked for dealing in the wrong neighbourhood, he turned out pretty well.
He isn't pro-abyss. It's just that he has a deep understanding of it, and due to the fates bound with the Ebon Noose, it was kind of inevitable.
I mean, he isn't the kind of archmaster who'd help Scelesti destroy the world. (Although possibly helping them with rehab. I'm looking at you, Ahriman of the Ebon Noose). He is just an abyssal Archmaster.
I suppose I probably could have changed the topic, but I'm worried asking about Hunter 2e ideas people'd like to see would not turn out well.
I love/hate that game.
I just don't like having to shell out hundreds of dollars to be able to access the entire game.
Ok maybe I feel entitled, but seriously, they neutered the "free" endgame content with the patch that fused all currencies into black bullion.
>I just don't like having to shell out hundreds of dollars to be able to access the entire game.
>Ok maybe I feel entitled, but seriously, they neutered the "free" endgame content with the patch that fused all currencies into black bullion.
Are you saying you have to pay in order to finished the main plot? That is bloody retarded.
Yes and no. The "main plot" sort of gets an ending with Transylvania, but it was a total hook ending and didn't really answer much.
Not only that, but to even play Tokyo you have to spend about 10 dollars for the map, and another 20 dollars for the missions. Yes, if you only buy the map (like I did) you only get story missions. Fuck, I'm getting angry just writing it.