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Still going for a more streamlined opening post. Keep in mind I have no control over half the things in the pastebin.

http://pastebin.com/mxLKGGi9

Previous thread: >>44747941

We haven't had a proper topic in a long time, so what are you up to, /cofdg/? Got any games you're in, homebrew you're working on, characters you want to try out?

Also, I need to get around to making more starter images...
Or just use the ones that still say "World of Darkness".
>>
Asked at the tail end of last thread what Edward Nygma's Tell would be.

>>44769985
Should I maybe just give him a Ban as his Tell? What would be the benefits?

Also, this is basically Not-̶y̶e̶t̶-̶ serial killer Nygma. One of my Werewolves is an Irakka Storm Lord working as a GCPD detective, with Nygma as his Wolfblooded and sidekick.
Although I was thinking Horse might be good, since he'd take on Bans. Alternately Skinner, but let's avoid that for now.
>>
>>44770089
Can't you just figure these things out yourself? Do you have to ask /tg/ about every step you take?
>>
>>44770168
I'm an indecisive fuck, and it bumps the thread.

Plus we need people actually talking about their games, so I'm trying to encourage that by talking about my game.
>>
>>44769976
Decided to run a Awakening game for my players. None of us have any actual playing experience so I'm sticking to 1e for everything. Setting it in NYC and hoping that I do my beloved city justice. Already doing good by making Robert Moses either a Seer or a really callus Silver Ladder
>>
>>44770277
I'd suggest at least using a few of the 2e rules where you can. You might find it easier. Or at least I know I couldn't stand going back to accuracy=damage.

Who's Robert Moses?
>>
>>44770277
I am in this game.

Still trying to decide if I want to stick with my nurse/brawler arrow being a Thyrsus, like I planned, which would mean our group has 2 Thyrsi(?), or switch him to an Obrimos

Would having 2 people from the same Path actually be an issue, /tg/, or should I stop worrying and play him how I want?
>>
>>44770195

its a general, it doesn't need to be bumped.
>>
>>44770304
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses

He's the man that nearly destroyed the Bronx, controlled governors and mayors, and diverted funds from social programs just so he could build his damn roads. It was either to fuel his ego or to save the city from becoming irreverent in modern times. He is single handedly the most divisive man in NYC history.

Fun Fact: He was a self hating Jew. He was almost expelled from Harvard when Moses decked a guy for commenting on the fact that he was Jewish.
>>
>>44770304

1e isn't bad and still perfectly playable. Honestly, its starting to get annoying. Telling people to play 2e instead of Ascension or 1e every time it comes up when the game isn't even out yet doesn't help anyone.

>>44770348

Just do what you want. There are benefits for being in same path, both mechanically and dramatically. Legacy and order define your character as much as path does.
>>
>>44770404
My mistake, it was Yale
>>
>>44770348
Having two people in the same path doesn't really mean much. I've never been in a game where people focused on BOTH of their Ruling Arcana exclusively anyway. If you're both Life focused, it might be a bit of an issue, but that'd be true even if you weren't the same Path.

I do like the idea of a brawling Nurse, though.

>>44770404
Is he still alive in your game? Or just an aspect of your setting that he was a Seer?

>>44770414
It's perfectly playable, sure, but it has a lot of problems and it's outdated at this point. Learning the previous version means you'll have to learn the new version eventually if you want to keep "up to date".
It's not "this is unplayable", it's "there is a better way".
I didn't even tell him to use the 2e Mage stuff. The stop-gap rules would be more than fine.
(That said, 2e IS coming out relatively soon)
>>
>>44770348
Nah, so long as you aim toward different arcanum and legacies with different skillsets.
>>
>>44770414
Speaking of Ascension, how is that book that actually lists spells you can cast using the sphere system?
>>
>>44770450
>(That said, 2e IS coming out relatively soon)
Then again, this is how Hitler lost WWII.
"Don't worry bother with anything that'll take longer than six months, the war will be over by then".
>>
>>44769976
You know, I think Pastebin is actually a great idea

I'm playing Changeling, my character is a Fairest who served as a passionate priestess to the Fae who was really into Ancient Egypt (though he took some liberties of course). She had to preach about the virtues of the Gentry and punish the non-believers.

She's a Bright One, the Gentry replaced her heart with its light so that she can be joyous and faithful (she always has this warm smile even if things are going to shit). She's in Winter now because we decided to try an all-Winter motley this time but she's the type who finds it quite difficult and might leave. Strong emotions of desire scare her since this is how she existed in Arcadia, which for her was a mixture of pure bliss and agony. But at the same time this is the only way she knows how to exist. Gathering Glamour from Sorrow is not something she is quite comfortable with.

One session she completely ran out of Willpower and was low on Glamour (she has Glamour Addiction flaw) so she went to a nightclub, started gathering more and more, eventually she just used Vainglory 4 to awe everyone so that everyone would pay attention to her as this is what she was used to in Arcadia. Ended up blacking out, waking up with full Glamour, still no Willpower and no recollection of what happened.

here's her sheet
>>
>>44770450
He's probably dead now, or transferred his consciousness into the arcane glyph that is hidden in the highways he built. Not sure yet. If he did transfer he's feeding off the hate, fear, violence and boredom that these roads have and will cause
>>
>>44770551
That is scary and exactly the kind of thing I love Changeling for.
>>44769976
>We haven't had a proper topic in a long time, so what are you up to, /cofdg/? Got any games you're in, homebrew you're working on, characters you want to try out?
Hacking Second Sight to work with Hurt Locker's Psychic Vampires. It's going slow.
>>
>>44770581
Does Second Sight really need much hacking? What are you doing with it?

>>44770572
A sentient glyph seems more a Demon thing (I could see that as an Angel, or Infrastructure) but I could see it working in Mage as some kind of a lich. I have no idea how Seers work, really.
>>
>>44770551
I don't know why but when I open the PDF it is blank.
>>
>>44770414
>>44770450
>>44770460
I guess I'll stick with Thyrsus, then.
Afaik the other one's also focusing on Life out of the ruling Arcanum, but might also be going for Spirit, which I'm not planning to touch too much, and I'm pretty sure we're not both going for Dreamspeakers.
>>
>>44770637
>What are you doing with it?
Trying to make sense of the cost and introducing a mechanic I've tentatively dubbed Bleed (ow the edge, right) which deals with the amount of energy you have available. A simple success resolves the effect, each additional success up to three cuts the number of Ephemera required by that many motes, dramatic failures cause Ephemera loss and bashing damage.
>A sentient glyph seems more a Demon thing (I could see that as an Angel, or Infrastructure) but I could see it working in Mage as some kind of a lich. I have no idea how Seers work, really.
It's a Supernal thing.
>>
>>44770637
Liches have essentially worn out their soul so they find new ones to rip out and act as duct tape. The only problem is that you need more and more duct tape as time goes on because the holes you are patching over keep getting worse
>>
>>44770645
huh weird. Just try to save as?
>>
>>44770770
I'm on my phone. Good to see its just me though
>>
>>44770743
Well, technically, that's just Tremere Liches. In MtAw, "Lich" is the term for any Mage who uses magic to stave off death for longer than is Wise.

Lots of Mages use Life magic to stay healthy long into their 80s and 90s, but actually reaching immortality requires a Mage to go to lengths that are almost guaranteed to be low on the Wisdom scale (using Death to steal years of life from other people, Tremere soul-theft, doing weird things to your soul). People are made to die; it's hard-coded into our Patterns, so it takes a lot of effort to rewrite that, and doing so can easily make you something not longer entirely human. So while it's not INHERENTLY left-handed, in practice it usually is, and being called a Lich is not a good thing in Mage society.

The Tremere have the unenviable honor of being both Liches and Reapers (mages who steal and destroy souls for power) which makes them DOUBLE NEFANDI.
>>
>>44770844
In Mage, aren't "Nephandi" just the Nameless Orders that eventually became the Free Council? And possibly the nameless orders that are still around but not major groups.
>>
>>44770844
I've been toying with the idea of a Lich legacy that's actually liches. Undeath has a lot of things to recommend it. You can ignore a lot of the demands your body puts on you, like eating and sleeping. You won't die of old age (and if done right, might not die at all!)
Mechanically they would also have the benefits of downgrading damage, like vampires do, and not getting knocked out.
The drawback I was gonna give them was that they are dead. They do not heal. They rot unless mummified or suchlike.

Their last step would be to become a self-aware corpse-possessing ghost-mage. Generally inhabiting their, or someone else's corpse.
>>
>>44770901
Nefandi (using the latin spelling) are the Unnamable. It's the term for those who've been stricken from the records of the consilia. It's also a general term for evil outsiders. The Nameless orders bore the badge of "evil outsiders" with pride.
>>
>>44770907
I know I rag on it, but you might want to look at Immortals. I don't remember the name for them, but there's a group that basically does the Dorian Grey thing.

Maybe your Legacy should be straight up Matter/Death and forge their souls into phylacteries?

Also, downgrading damage is a thing any Mage with enough Death can do as an Attainment in 2e.

>>44770961
Ah, I see. I thought there was no "evil super oblivion nihilist mages" in Awakening. Other than the Scelesti
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC7PtQh4gA8
Goetic Demon of Gluttony?
>>
>>44770901
Kiiinda. (And in MtAw its Nefandi, Nephandi is the Ascension version.)

"Nefandi" is the term the Diamond Orders used to use for mages praticing forbidden magic, OR for mages that refused to join the Diamond; the word itself is based on the High Speech word for "Without Name".

When most of the Nameless Orders joined up and became the Free Council, they (naturally) didn't care for that term, which lead to "left-handed" becoming the usual term. But "Nefandi" still gets used.

>>44770907
That would be... tough, since actually dying causes your Soul to pass on, along with your Awakened spark. Ghost Mages can't cast real Magic - they can duplicate magic that they used to be able to cast in life, but it's not actually Supernal Magic, it's just ghostly Numina fuled by Plasm that resembles their old spells.

So a legacy that duplicates undead-like bodily effects could work (that's what Death Mage Armor will do in 2e!) but having them ACTUALLY BE DEAD won't work, metaphysically.
>>
>>44770977
>Ah, I see. I thought there was no "evil super oblivion nihilist mages" in Awakening. Other than the Scelesti

Generally not, no. There are individual madmen out there, but only the Scelesti want to end the world. And not even all of them.
There are villains though.
>>
>>44771112
Aren't there still Nameless Orders, though?

Also, I think a Ghost Mage is one of the signature characters. Or they might be a Morphean?
Either way it's a genderless lich that goes by the name "Baphomet" so... Probably not a nice person.
>>
>>44771112
>High Speech

It's Latin you idiot!
>>
>>44770551
How do you handle Glamour harvesting? I'm very unsure about how easy or hard it should be.
>>
>>44771223
Well our GM has a rule of "if it's not down time, every Glamour harvesting must be a new situation" For example, if you were harvesting by passively watching the funeral, doing that that same thing again will incur penalties because the experience is repeating itself.

There's also passive vs active harvesting. Passive is you're only observing, active is you're actively trying to influence the emotions by doing something yourself. You get more dice for active, since you can add the relevant skill. Like Expression when telling a captivating story, for example.
>>
>>44771147
The word "nefandi" in Awakening is a Latin (it literally means "Vile" in Latin) approximation of a High Speech word that means "Unnamable Thing" "Nameless" or "Without a Name" depending on context.

In Ascension, "Nephandi" are the evil inverse-Avatar faction of mages, in Awakening "Nefandi" is what the Diamond and Seers used to call any mage who wasn't in one of the five Orders. It fell out of style among the Diamond when the Free Council was created, as continuing to use the pejorative term for orderless mages wasn't politically correct. Modern Awakened prefer the English translation of the original high speech ("Nameless") as it doesn't have the judgemental overtones; the Free Council call both their own ancestors and the remaining minor independent groups "Nameless Orders" quite happily, while the more militant Libertines would duel a Diamond mage who called them "Nefandi".

And for those groups that aren't in the main sects *because* they're evil, the Pentacle started using the Free Council's term for them ("Left-Handed") instead.

This does sometimes get confusing - the Tremere are both a Nameless Order, a multi-branching, complicated Legacy, and Left-Handed to boot.

Ironically, the Scelesti (the closest thing nMage has to cMage Nephandi) make a habit of infiltrating other sects. So they aren't always Nefandi.

TLDR - "Nefandi" in Awakening is an old curse word for anyone who wan't in an Order. The guys who serve the Abyss are called Scelesti.
>>
>>44771315
>(it literally means "Vile" in Latin)
I thought it literally meant unspeakable...
>>
>>44771315
So the Tremere are:
>Nameless
>Legacy
>Liches
>Reapers
I can't wait to see your 2e version of Tremere, because they deserve better rules, considering they're the best.
>>
>>44771367
Considering that they also hunt mages, I think a case could be made that they are also Banishers.
>>
>>44771378
They're basically everything so bad it would get the Seers and Pentacle to work together except for Scelesti.

And they even have Bloodlines.
>>
>>44771424
which is weird, because they're actually not that bad
>>
>>44771140
There are. They are groups that didn't sign up with the Free Council when they formed the Pentacles. The Left Handed book actually has an example of a 15 Mage group that pulls a Strangers on a Train so their work and favors don't build a pattern that can be followed. Too bad there are very bad left handed in the group
>>
>>44771470
>which is weird, because they're actually not that bad
Except they're the only mages that actually hurt people.
>>
Would the rise of a Scelesti Order* attract much attention?

*Approximately as strong as an Pentacle Order
>>
So is the Abyss the 11th Arcana then?
>>
>>44769976
>characters you want to try out?

A Nosferatu that spends all night watching teenage movies and complaining
>>
>>44771632
they can just kill murderers like vampries and werewolves and beasts

>>44771660
wouldn't the rise of any order as strong as a ptenacle order attract attention?
>>
>>44771881
>"This is how we are represented? Unbelievable."
>>
>>44771367

I'm considering whether it's best to do the Tremere as a bonkers, complicated Legacy which splits into the different Houses at different points of the Attainments, or whether they should be many closely-related Legacies in a Nameless Order. Possibly *both*.

But my "back of a beer mat" 2e conversion for them includes what their Nameless Order Merit includes. The Tremere as described in LHP are aggressive about not bothering to defend their weaker members, because it lulls the Orders into a false sense of security, so some things like Rote Skills probably only come with House membership.

I've got a good basis to work from, though - one of the three statted Legacies we already have in 2e are the Nagaraja in Dark Eras, who are in the Tremere in the modern day.
>>
>>44771140
Baphomet is a Morphean, the term for a Goetia mage. Kind of like a ghost mage, but based on a different ephemeral entity.
>>
>>44771953

I was actually thinking more along the lines of Dazed and Confused, The Breakfast Club and American Pie
>>
>>44772016
Would the idea up thread about actually un-dead mages at all work?
>>
>>44771880

The Abyss is like 400 Arcanae, each nameless, formless, and terrible. In theory, though, it could be broken down and treated as a part of the tapestry. It's just a really bad idea.

>>44771660

Ism't there a Scelesti representative in the Toronto Consillium? I swore I remember reading that somewhere.
>>
>>44772037
>400 Arcanae
>literally infinite possibility
>400
>>
>>44771315
>And for those groups that aren't in the main sects *because* they're evil, the Pentacle started using the Free Council's term for them ("Left-Handed") instead.
I always wonder what it's like to be a Mage, be left-handed, and then find out that term is exclusively used to refer to the soul-shittingly evil in your new society.
>>
>>44772035
Oh, sure. Ghost mages using their bodies to possess and preserve their own corpses. Happens all the time.

Some Legacies make the body enter a deathlike state without ever actually dying, too - there's a major Mystagogue Legacy I constantly forget the name of whose members all register as "dead" to Death sight, don't have pulses, etc.

... Just looked them up. It's the Wraiths of Epochs.
>>
>>44772276
Yeah, it was the wraiths I was inspired by. But I thought "why not go further?".
>>
>>44770551
Don't you have to many merit points for a starting character? Or even a character after the first session? How much experience did you make?
>>
>>44772140

Both are true at the exact same time. Such is the power of the Abyss.
>>
>>44772429
We were allowed to spend xp on New Identity a few days after we got out of Hedge to show that Winter was helping us to establish new identities. GM also gave us Mantle since we have just finished a story that was all about helping Winter sort shit out.
>>
>>44773071
To clarify: we have been playing for a couple of months now. We are at downtime now actually, so I am considering what to spend xp on.

My current ideas:
- Eternal Winter 2: 12xp
- Weaponry: 6xp
- Science: 3xp (for that Eternal Winter)
- Thorns and Brambles: 4xp (if the GM allows it)
- Fang & Talon: 12xp
- Athletics: 6xp (we end up running away from stuff a lot)
- Survival: 6xp (to navigate the Hedge)
- Resources: 2xp
- Harvest: 6xp

We don't have any pure combat characters so as you can see I am looking for ways to defend myself. Thorns and Brambles first dot actually looks great but I have no idea if the GM will allow it. Might not be thematically-appropriate for Winter to have it, I dunno.
>>
>>44769976
So, has any interesting news come out of Midwinter Convention, or is it too soon?
>>
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Never forget!
>>
>>44773371

I don't think we'll be getting any announcements there. If we're getting any kind of news, it'll be out of Solmulkhota, the next convention White Wolf is going to.

>>44773423

Holy cats, is that a real screen cap?
>>
>>44773624

http://www.solmukohta.org/

This is the website, by the way. Dracula will be running the first One World of Darkness LARP event there, as a beta test for future events. By the time March rolls around, we should expect White Wolf to make some announcements, as it'd be six months from the Paradox purchase announcement and by then they should have more solid plans than the ones announced at Tenebrae Noctis.
>>
>>44772276
>Oh, sure. Ghost mages using their bodies to possess and preserve their own corpses. Happens all the time.
Just how many 'cheat death' types of thing can a Mage do simultaneously?
Could you have a dead Mage whose Mind is going around the Astral as a Morphean, while their Ghost is sitting in Twilight, and their Soul got shoved back into their body making it a Revenant?
>>
>>44774061

Well, one of the quirks of the CofD's metaphysics is that you don't technically have to be dead to have a ghost.
>>
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>>44773624
That's a real screencap from the alpha yes.
>>
>>44773423
What is this?
>>
>>44774277
blah blah fallout 3 merely pretending to be dead.
>>
>>44774367
A screenshot from the World of Darkness alpha by CCP.
>>
>>44774277
That means a Mage could have themselves as a Ghost Familiar?
>>
>>44771881
>>44771953
I have a character concept that's basically Edward as a nosferatu.
He's a creepy stalker that kills your dog and leaves love messages on your mirror in it's blood.

>>44771992
I say they should split. Or, really, just get bonus attainments after a point.

>>44774287
I need to go play Bloodlines more...
>>
>>44774401
I think by this point, "Edward is actually a creepy stalker!" has gotten about as original to game about as "CWCville is actually an authoritarian dystopia."

Move on, folks.
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>>44774287
I think I have a couple as well.
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>>44774497
He never killed Bella's dog or acted like the traditional stalker boyfriend. He just watched her, the was pretty.
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>>44774575
>>
Right, that's my pitch for a small late change to my sections of The Pack in that I think will really improve one section.

Don't worry, it won't delay things even if Stew OK's it. I've just spent a few weeks staring at this particular bit that's been really nagging me and decided to improve and fix it.

Other than that, currently in an odd limbo with OP, haven't gotten anything I need to write at the moment as it's all waiting for publication.
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>>44774676
And that is all
>>
Here is all I ever collected

http://www.mediafire.com/download/3c1wbvtsbbvz8d8/World+of+Darkness+MMO+Pics.rar
>>
>>44774385

Yes! And a character in my own Chronicle does. It's no weirder than having your own Goetic daemon as a Familiar.
>>
>>44775236
That's fucking awesome, Dave. And it must be such a weird experience for the mage's cabal as well. Basically two of the same person.
>>
>>44774277
>>44775236
>Well, one of the quirks of the CofD's metaphysics is that you don't technically have to be dead to have a ghost.

Definitely a feature, not a bug.

Damn, OPP really needs to release Mage 2e yesterday!!!
>>
Hey Dave, so we know quite a few of the Mage armors now, but I'm curious. Will Fate give armor and not defense? Or are Acanthus packing two defense boosting mage armors? Fate mage armor was always an interesting idea to me, so I'm really curious.
>>
>>44775236
Oh god then everyone really IS John in a Mage game.

>A mage who has become Morphean and is puppeting his Revanant from within the Astral and has got it to have his Ghost as its Familiar, also their Goetic Demon is involved in all of this, somehow.

This would be fun, what else can the components of this clusterfuck be separated into.
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>>44775236
>more The Man Comes Around teasing

goddammit dave for once choose your internet fans over professional responsibilities
>>
>>44775236

Will there be rules in Mage 2e for improving familiars, such as increasing their Rank, with or without spending experience?

Also, will 2e still maintain a distinction between embodied familiars and fetches?
>>
So, you think Rickman was also a mage? What was his path? What was Bowie's, now we're talking about this? I'm tempted to immediately blurt our Acanthus, but aesthetics aside, it may not be the most accurate answer.
>>
>>44775409
Yeah man. The wait is driving me crazy!
>>44775430
I need more of that game something terrible. Please Dave. Update us!
>>
>>44775568
>The wait is driving me crazy!
Oh no, I got the madness! I GOT CABIN FEVER!
>>
>>44775236
...The question that immediately comes to mind is if it's cheating to have sex with your significant other's ghost while they're still alive. Because I've always figured it would be fine if they're dead, but with this weird situation being possible, doubt creeps in.
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>>44775444
Both of these questions have been asked so many times they've stopped being funny.
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>>44775595
I GOT IT TOO!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHNJPsCDSqo
>>
>>44771315
I always disliked the Left-Hand Path appelation, in my games they are never called that, only Nefandi.

And left-hand path, non-capitalized, refers to different antinomic practices, what is called vama-marga in Indian occultism.

Why did you choose to name it that? It was really hard to juggle Left-Hand Path and left-hand path legacies (Clavicularii are a left-hand path legacy, ffs!) before I did that switch.
>>
>>44775651
>Both of these questions have been asked so many times they've stopped being funny.

Not everyone spends all their waking hours stalking Dave for spoilers.

If you know the answers to the questions, or better yet have links, just be courteous and post them instead of being an ass.
>>
>>44775421
And then they all fused.
>>
>>44769976

Is 12 health boxes too much for a starting character? Am I jaded from running too many high-powered WoD games? The system is nWoD.
>>
>>44775763
What splat?
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>>44775763
If you're bloodbather-kun then you're already dead. Might as well go for Hulk-strength instead
>>
>>44775236

Hey Dave,

What do you think of the new "Magicians" series on syfy (the premiere will be in January 25th of this year)? I LOVED the pilot, it looked like a great example of this games core themes and (more-or-less) the Mysterium.

On another note, do you have advice for running a solo game in the second edition of mage? My player wants to essentially be an agent of the Mysterium, sent to investigate mysteries, runs and other things.
>>
>>44775763
That does seem like a lot. What are they, like, a vampire with all starting discipline dots in resilience?
>>
>>44775713
What?
Left Handed Path means legacies that are unsavoury to the Pentacle. Why would you need to juggle Left-Hand Path and left-hand path legacies? What does
>And left-hand path, non-capitalized, refers to different antinomic practices, what is called vama-marga in Indian occultism.
even mean?

>>44775836
I had a pretty long running solo game. It was good. Heck, I've probably had longer solo games than traditional group games... We even split off a lot in that one game, so our group was solo games.
>>
>>44775773

Blood bather

>>44775774

I really just want to get enough answers to this so that I have to stop asking, but I only get like 1-2 replies per thread while there are 50 people sperging about other stuff, because /wodg/ is anti-fun. I'm also not auto-dead because it's an evil game lel. I won't even be the most villainous person in this game senpai

>>44775865

It DOES seem like a lot. It's not a vampire though. A starting vampire with 5 stamina, the giant merit, and their starting discipline dots in resilience would be over 12 though.
>>
>>44776073

can* stop asking, pardon. I don't usually like to post in /wodg/ but I just need some feedback on this.
>>
>>44771632
>Except they're the only mages that actually hurt people.

look at this wizard apologist, implying that mages don't hurt us simply by existing.
>>
>>44776073
I still say Hulk Strength. Give me yourr tub details
>>
>>44776123

BATH = -12
Unique Tub -5
Symbols/Carvings -2
Attendant (one) -2
The Stars Are Right (July 1st) -3

BLOOD = -14
Drained To Death -5
Immersion (20 people) -4
Fresh -3
Age (adult) -2

EFFECTS = +37
Immortal +5
Regeneration +4
Return From Death +5
Life-Bound -3
Intoxicating Presence +2
Attribute Increase, Permanent (+8) +24

FREQUENCY = -4
Yearly +1
Strict Timeline (instant death) -5

PREPARATION = -7
Infusion (3 Essence, Dog Bones, 5 Silver Coins) -5
Still Alive -2

TOTAL = 0

There are enough social characters in this game, and my character can hold his own in a conversation. So I'm distributing those points into physical stats, and since I have the anachronism flaw (doesn't understand or want to understand modern technology, he's a traditionalist) putting into dex for firearms is pretty meaningless.
>>
>>44776120
>"Take this Nickel"

>Blaise carefully takes a nickel out of his pocket and places it on the sidewalk, then moves with Kali to a bench where they can observe.

>"In a few hours' time, a young boy will pass this way and pick up that nickel. This will give him the money he needs to buy a certain work of graphic fiction, and he will proceed to the comic-book store. Because his journey home will be thus delayed by five minutes, he will be approaching the main road rather than crossing it when the auto pile up occurs, and escape a slow and painful recovery from his injuries in hospital. However, because they will not have the chance to reconcile over his sick bed, his estranged parents will not get back together and his sister - destined to become a high school teacher - will never be born. Someone who would be in the world won't be, and all for a Nickel"

Mages - no sense of right and wrong
>>
>>44774681
You should find a werewolf game to play.
>>
>>44776204
How in the hell are you planning on orchestrating these awful bathing rituals without being caught, by the way.
>>
>>44776222
Seriously, I find that a bad example of wizard dickery, though. Or at least it is very esoteric dickery. I do not want to get into an abortion debate, but that is even less of an issue as there is not even a conception occurring.

I think if we actually had the power to see "What if" scenarios play out, this would not even be unusual. A lot of people would shown to exist while others would not.

There are plenty better examples of even Pentacle mages dicking over Sleepers that are much less esoteric dickery.
>>
>>44776288
Because no one ever think through how their villain game works. That shit is why I hate Bloodbathers. even one of them is ridiculous.
>>
>>44771992
>
I'm considering whether it's best to do the Tremere as a bonkers, complicated Legacy which splits into the different Houses at different points of the Attainments, or whether they should be many closely-related Legacies in a Nameless Order. Possibly *both*.

In that case would you be interested including a more traditional lich legacy among them? In other words, the kind of lich that puts his (or her) soul into some object from which his (or her) unread body is controlled? Said undead body need not be the rotting kind (i.e. Madoka Magica).
>>
>>44776204
>Unique Tub -5

You foolish fool, you walked into the trap
>>
>>44776288
>put out pamphlets to offer food to homeless people on the streets
>put out a craigslist ad
>buy them from the chinese or central americans
>>
>>44776288
Make a deal with a mage. They can just make people disappear.
>>
>>44776403
>Make a deal with a mage.

That will never end well for anyone who isn't also a Mage
>>
>>44776120
>look at this wizard apologist, implying that mages don't hurt us simply by existing.

#MagicalLivesMatter

#NotAllMages

#BetterThanABlindMonkey

(although the first hashtag could apply to any non-mortal in the CofD)
>>
>>44776430
Why not? Mages don't care
>>
>>44776430
Changelings and demons (of various kinds, playable and not) might get a pretty decent deal, actually.
>>
>>44776430
What about changelings and demons? Shrewd deal-making is kind of their collective specialty.
>>
>>44772276
>Oh, sure. Ghost mages using their bodies to possess and preserve their own corpses. Happens all the time.

Is this a truly permanent change to their fundamental nature or is it a spell which might be countered/dispelled?
>>
>>44776478
>Why not? Mages don't care

Mages care.

The wise shepherd protects his sheep.
>>
>>44772276
What happens if the ghost of my not-dead self (or my Morphean) Claims my own still living body?
>>
>>44776288

In the city of Chicago, well over 20 people disappear every year. There are vampires, there are werewolves, there are changelings and True Fae, there are ghosts, spirits, and mages.

Making another 20 disappear wouldn't be hard at all.

I have resources 5 and I put dots into a safehouse. A ceramics factory, with kilns. A kiln can easily get hot enough to reduce 20 bodies to ash. It's really not that difficult, and I love how vampire court abductions and death raging werewolves not bringing down the heat is not a strain on anyone's suspension of disbelief, but a rich guy killing twenty people is. You know human trafficking is still a thing, right? I could just say that I buy all of the victims on the black market if I'm too lazy to have them kidnapped properly.
The logistics of the character's ritual aren't really why I came to the thread. He's far less likely to be caught than the privateer changeling selling mortals to the True Fae. I'm asking about feedback on crunch decisions.
>>
>>44776539
More like wolf. Mages are just another flavor of monster.
>>
>>44776539
>>44776577
There's literally a Vampire Bloodline based around that concept. They're called Shepherds, actually.
>>
>>44776577
This sort of Mageist language is not acceptable in a diverse and tolerant Realm of Darkness
>>
>>44776569
>I love how a multilayered conspiracy not bringing down the heat when they kill several people over time is not a strain on anyone's suspension of disbelief, but one person killing twenty people in a single night is.
>>
>>44776577
>Mages are just another flavor of monster.
Mages are a human monster.

They're not forced into monstrosity by their nature like others such as Werewolves or Vampires, they become a monster through the corruption of power, and what they do to feed their desire for more power.

Unless we're talking about Banishers and the Mad, but those aren't really people any more.
>>
>>44776353

>It's totally within reason that a vampire population in a city will kill at least a dozen people by bleeding them out and get away with it. The werewolf population will probably kill another dozen or so death raging or just hunting them if they're particularly ballsy Pure. Spirits and ghosts will kill at LEAST a handful depending on the city, True Fae will abduct a few, mad changelings and privateers will kill or abduct a few more. Abyssals and evil mages will definitely kill or abduct at least a few, and even some 'good' mages might see fit to take in a few 'test subjects'. Hunters like Ashwood Abbey certainly have no qualms about killing the occasional human. The Hunt Club habitually murders people. In a big city where there's rampant crime, hundreds of people die or vanish a year because of MORTAL criminals and maniacs.

>but if you kill 20 once a year you WILL GET CAUGHT ITS RIDICULOUS AND RUINS MY IMMERSION

Do you know what game you are playing? In the REAL WORLD a multi-millionaire could easily execute twenty people a year, in the world of darkness it's a fucking cakewalk.
>>
>>44776679

>implying all the victims need to be abducted in a single night from a single place
>>
>>44776692

I thought Mages were what humans are inherently supposed to be.
>>
>>44776313
gnosopharm is the best example of wizard dickery, and one of the best stories in horror recognition guide, which is full of other great stories.
>>
>>44776794
According to Pentacle dogma, they are.
Isn't that interesting.
>>
>>44776799
I do not disagree, but it is a Seer story, so does not quite count when making an argument why the Pentacle is still monstrous.
>>
>>44776692
>Mages are just another flavor of monster.
>Mages are a human monster.

Those filthy, weak and ignorant mortals, with their pitiful lives and meaningless concerns, enforce the Lie and trap all of us in this Fallen prison.

No, mortals are the real monsters, and with their passing we will know true peace and enlightenment.
>>
>>44776747
Dude, no one is going to kill 20 people in one night.

>>44776778
Well then you're just wasting money housing them, and providing more chance that someone will catch you because you've got to have SOMEONE feeding and watching over those 20 people.
>>
>>44776852
Mystagogue, please.
>>
>>44776852
I feel more Awake just from reading this
>>
>>44776288
>>44776353
>>44776377
>>44776403
>>44776679
>>44776747
>>44776778

So instead of arguing about autistic details, could I get more than 1 actual response to my initial post? kek

Is 12 health boxes really significant? Will that make a big difference? I've run several nWoD games and played in a few but I'm not sure my judgement is unclouded enough - my games were pretty high powered, and the ones I played in were Promethean and Werewolf (two of the most resilient splats), and they didn't involve very much conflict anyhow.
>>
>>44776939
>Is 12 health boxes really significant?

No, anything can "not die"
>>
>>44776888
>>44776899

Any mage who tolerates Pancrytia, by action or inaction, are race traitors who deserve nothing less than the tender mercies of the Abyss
>>
>>44776939
Plenty of people have answered your question. Your character can't even fucking die, so what's the point of extra health?
>>
>>44776361

On today's episode of Hunter: the Vigil, thrill as the cell disguises themselves as Repo Men and attempt to steal the only tub the bloodbather can use! Can they stop the evil of the bloodbather in time? How heavy is a tub? Will they lift with their legs and not with their back?
>>
>>44776884

A multi-millionaire can confine 20 abductees with extreme ease.

Were you not paying attention to the news story about the dimwitted schlub that managed to keep three women locked up in his two story house for 15 years?
>>
>>44777019

Plenty of people? Only one person has given an actual answer and it was to focus on strength. Two people asked about the splat. Everyone else sperged about how he'd get away with the ritual lel

And he can die, if his body is significantly dismembered or harmed. If his head is cut off, he can come back.

If he's burnt to a cinder, dissolved, or diced up and scattered to the four corners of the Earth, he can't.

So health boxes are important.
>>
>>44777051
>Were you not paying attention to the news story about the dimwitted schlub that managed to keep three women locked up in his two story house for 15 years?

Police: You're a monster. You're under arrest for kidnapping these poor women.

Mage: Those aren't the women you're looking for.

Police: We've got the wrong house, guys. Those aren't the women we're looking for.
>>
>>44777111
Just be a Purified with a blood fetish instead if never ever dying is your main thing
>>
>>44776836

But normal humans can become sleep walkers (who in turn can use low magic), anyone can awaken, and both the supernal & watchtowers do exist. Even without the previous world idea these facts seem to suggest there might be some truth to said dogma.
>>
>>44777149

kek

>>44777151

I like how playing an Immortal isn't enough if I want to survive dying, I've got to be a specific type (the most overpowered of the three by FAR).

Does /wodg/ just hate fun or something?
>>
>>44777216
I don't hate fun but you seem set on going for Stamina but insist on trying to get us to change your mind for reasons known only to yourself.
>>
>>44776852
>>44777015

>Implying that this kind of thinking is entirely unique to mages and monsters, and that it has never occurred at any point in history within any region of the planet.
>>
>>44777216
The alternative is to become an archmaster or do one a favor. They can grant immortality man. I would love to play an archmaster game but those are impossible.
>>
>>44777211
I was mostly saying it was interesting that the true nature of humanity is one where each and every person must struggle with the temptations of power.

In truth, I'm surprised that Atlantis lasted as long as it did. If it did in the first place.
>>
>>44777216
>I like how playing an Immortal isn't enough if I want to survive dying, I've got to be a specific type (the most overpowered of the three by FAR).

>I like how playing an Immortal isn't enough if I want to survive dying, I've got to be a specific type (the most overpowered of the three by FAR).

>Implying that the Purified are not exceptionally vulnerable while in the Shadow Realm.
>Implying that they do not inevitably become slave/pawns of god-like spirits.
>>
>>44776222
>>44776313
It's not supposed to be an example of dickery. It's a mentor trying to get his student into the mindset of the Legacy he's a part of and she wants to get into.
>>
>>44777111
People have told you several times when you asked that Strength is good and there's no point in taking Health. Shit, Bloodbathers are my least favourite minor template and I'm telling you to just go Strength. When you're throwing 20+ dice it's not like anyone is going to kill you in the first place.

>>44777149
He's a bloodbather.

>>44777216
Dude, no one hates fun. People--even people who do hate fun--are answering your question. But >>44777245 you want Stamina. So just split the fucking difference.

You don't need Stamina to survive dying, you have a janky magical bathtub that means you never ever die. You're not fighting people with fucking flamethrowers. The reason people are saying be a different kind of Immortal is that you seem afraid that your character's extremely specific weakness is going to come up. I mean, shit... do you have this problem when playing a regular non-immortal? "Oh no, I need more health boxes or I might die".

Try not dying, then.
>>
>>44776939

12 health boxes are fine. Unless you're constantly running into minefields, you'll be pretty hardy.
>>
>>44776692
>Banishers aren't really people anymore
>When "Banisher" is a political designation applied to people who think Mages shouldn't be able to just do whatever
>>
>>44777424
>Dude, no one hates fun
You do. You're shitting on everyone's ideas.

And just yesterday someone said he should take Health.
>>
>>44777370
It probably did once though it would have taken a while. The ladder was basically the mammon machine in chrono trigger. It took a long while before mages reached the collective knowledge to build and use it.
>>
>>44777015
>Pancryptia
>Even existing outside of Mystagogues' heads
>>
>>44777446
Banisher is and isn't which makes it an issue there a a faction of mages who are banishers and another faction people call banishers to remove them from power.
>>
>>44777424
>He's a bloodbather.

I know. The dialogue was more generally directed to helping explain the large number of unsolved murders and missing persons cases in the CofD. All major splats have "these aren't the droids you're looking for" powers or far more impressive abilities.

It must really suck to be a detective in a major city in the CofD.
>>
>>44777446
I thought Banishers were specifically those for whom Awakening went horribly wrong and caused mental scarring that drives them to a pathological fear and hatred of magic despite their own magic power. I mean, they're still not "not people," though.
>>
>>44777548
>It must really suck to be a detective in a major city in the CofD

It does. That's what leads to people taking up the Vigil
>>
>>44777565
Only a small minority of Banishers have that problem.

Banisher is also a label applied to anyone who goes "hey guys maybe men shouldn't be gods".
>>
>>44777461
Did I? Either way, at that level it doesn't really matter, and it's not like he has to go all-in.

>>44777548
Honestly, I think the Dresden Files route works best. "Any real life unsolved case where they never turn up is actually a monster".
Although at the same time that does sort of remove human agency in their wrongdoings. The whole "vampires made Hitler" problem.
>>
>>44777600
Not really.
Those are just high Wisdom mages.
The orders have lots of those.
>>
>>44777590

Amusingly, some detectives are also supernatural beings. For example, I remember the second edition of vampire mentioning one.
>>
>>44777643
He wouldn't have had to gas and torch so many of them if they hadn't jerkied so many german people.
>>
>>44776267
That's crazy talk.
>>
>>44777273
That's got to be a hell of a favor.
>>
>>44777705
Step 1. Find an Archmage
Step 2. Find the Quintessence for your spell
Step 3. Find like, 2 Quintessences that he wants (payment)
Step 4. Thank him for his time, and agree to any security he wants, including potentially erasing your memories of him.
>>
>>44777681
The way I see it the police department is going to be infested with agents from the local supernatural community.

Hell they probably even know that other people they work with are moles for rival factions. But no sense getting the mortals involved?
>>
>>44777859
>the Captain is a Beast who filled the entire force with various supernaturals and kept them all in silo from one another so they think they're the only ones with an inside track
>>
>>44777461
>You're shitting on everyone's ideas.
This is 90% of what Aspel does on a daily basis, so no surprises there.
>>
>>44777938
No it isn't. Half the time I give people advice on how to do their ideas. I just think Bloodbathers are dumb. And I *still* answered his question like three times now.
If he *really* is worried about dying, he should put it all into Dexterity and take Aikido 3 and a merit that lets him use Dexterity in a grapple (I swear one of those exists).
Then if someone attacks them he counters and snaps their neck.

"I have a ludicrous amount of dots to throw around" isn't even a meaningful question, because at that point there's literally no wrong answer. I've had trouble dying with 9 Health Boxes. If he really doesn't want to so much as fall asleep, he could just get a few extra dots in Stamina, but Strength is more useful for actually getting things done.

Like, fuck, it's not like I can't tell someone their thing is stupid AND tell them how to pull it off.
>>
>>44777893
Beasts don't play well at all with the other splats though.
>I'm bigger better and stronger than all of you. Behold my bigger better and stronger abilities, and how half of them mindfuck you without so much as a resistance roll
>Everything you do or know is a shittier less true myth that I have the real version of. I was there before you were born.
>I know you're trying to "stay hidden" and all that, but I'm just gonna go right ahead and rape these three families in front of their children and that cop, while putting it all up on youtube for the husband that wasn't there - and who's ALSO about to be blamed for all of this... What do you mean he became a hero? Why are people who've had everything torn from them by me such fucking assholes? What kind of monster do you have to be to want to kill someone like me when all I'm doing is teaching that dead baby a lesson? A lesson with my cock?

Have the cap'n be a sin-eater, rather. A captain with a dead captain fused to his soul. He's leading people because he just can't help it anymore. It's all he knows in two lifetimes AND some kind of spiritual undeath lifetime as well.

The Unchained can handle keeping the silos stocked with whatever fissile material the moros magics up. Can probably carry a few as well.
>>
>>44777859

This would make for an amazing crossover campaign/game premise.
>>
>>44778173
Wrong kind of captain.
... or maybe not.
>>
>>44778173
>Beasts don't play well at all with the other splats though.
An entire section of their book is "we're all one big monstrous family, hey look, I have this power which boosts all Supernatural abilities, aren't I great?"
>>
>>44778173
That's not at all accurate. Stop believing what other people tell you.
>>
>>44778173

They have nothing on the divine retconning magics of the Archmages and their ascended fellows.
>>
>>44777548
>>44777590
>>44777681
>>It must really suck to be a detective in a major city in the CofD
>It does. That's what leads to people taking up the Vigil
>Amusingly, some detectives are also supernatural beings

That definitely reminded me of Forever Knight.

Damn, I miss my Crime Time After Prime TIme

However, people will definitely start getting suspicious with the ridiculous number of homicide detectives across the world who just happen to have sunlight allergies.

There was also a vampire cop in Kindred the Embraced who was the partner of the protagonist. I just pretend that K:tE never happened, and it was all a bad dream.
>>
>>44778331
Okay I'll stop believing the playtest document.
>>
>>44778331
It's pretty accurate yo.
>>
>>44778544
>>44778641
Even if that's what the playtest document implied (it isn't), that's certainly not what the final version is like.
>>
>>44778186
>This would make for an amazing crossover campaign/game premise.

Who wants to play the only mortal in Precinct 666?
>>
>>44778702
I mean, it is what it's like, and you have no basis to state that it will be otherwise in the final product.

So I don't really know what the point of your post was.

>>44778715
Naw, the only mortal is a Hunter.
>>
>>44778715
>Precinct 666 has at least one of every splat
>Including innocents, because it's bring your daughter to work day.
>>
>>44778772

Isn't the final version of Beast out already? I'm pretty sure Beast backers got their advance copies weeks ago.
>>
>>44778772
>you have no basis to state that it will be otherwise in the final product.
... What?
First off, again, that's not how it was in the playtest document. Second... Beast has been on sale for fucking months. Although for some reason I can't find it on DrivethruRPG.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews.php?products_id=162443

Either way, people have seen the backer PDF already. Your info is both wrong and out of date.

>>44778907
>Weeks
It was like September.
>>
>>44778186
Working there would be like living in Berlin during the height of the cold war.

Backdoor diplomacy between Ghouls, Wolf-blooded, Proximi, etc. All desperately trying to stop all out war between the factions
>>
>>44778925

That's probably the former page for the KS Advance Backer Version. I figure it must have gone down now that the final PDF is almost ready for release. Also damn September? How time files.
>>
>>44778793
>>Precinct 666 has at least one of every splat
>>Including innocents, because it's bring your daughter to work day.

Bob: Stan, you daughter looks positively *delicious*. I can't believe you never introduced everyone to her before today.

Stan: >>o_o<<

Bob: Stan, put out the fire... for God's sake, put out the fire, I was kidding... it was only a joke, arrrrrgggg...
>>
>>44778925

It's not how they describe themselves in the Core. But it IS what they do.

Sure, THEY don't see themselves as douchebags but what they do is exactly what the guy described.
>>
>>44778173
The problem with Beasts is the developer wanted there to be an unrepentant-monster splat, which is fine on its own, and he wanted there to be a crossover splat, which is also fine on its own, and then he went and made both of those things the same splat.

The sorts of other supernaturals that Beasts would actually feel kinship with are the ones that the PCs in those other games have listed as "kill on sight".
>>
>>44778925
>>44779159

Also, no Beast is NOT out yet. It's still in developmen/finishing.

From Monday Meeting notes:
Proofing: Beast: The Primordial – Indexing.

http://theonyxpath.com/were-absolute-beginners/
>>
>>44779159
No, it isn't. It's what people who buy into 4chan and SomethingAwful's rhetoric think. There is literally no reason for a Beast to "rape these three families in front of their children and that cop". All they have to do is watch a vampire feed to get their jollies off. They also don't do everything out in the open, either. And they don't just go around swinging their dicks to every other Supernatural. AND it's borderline impossible for a Beast to actually create a Hero by mindraping someone anyway, despite what the first draft would have you believe.

For fucks sake, the whole "lessons" thing didn't even come about until AFTER the Kickstarter preview, so clearly you're at least aware that the game is different now.

>>44779216
The problem with Beast is that everyone would rather listen to hearsay than figure it out for themselves.
Also, Beast are going to feel Kinship with Werewolves and Vampires just fine. Even Mages or Sin-eaters. The only real problems are Changelings and Prometheans. And being part of another supernatural group means that Beasts are LESS likely to be acting like the "kill on sight" creatures.

>>44779227
Well, backer copies are out, and I've seen one.
>>
I know fuckall about mages and I'm starting to get an interest. However, most of their shit confuses me. Can someone summarize in one or two sentences the "gist" of Mage: The Awakening, please?. If it helps, I'm mainly a Changeling: The Lost player.
>>
>>44779304

Wasn't this game also disliked for one of the reasons Changing: The Dreaming was also disliked? https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Beast:_The_Primordial
>>
>>44779304

Tell us what Beast is like then, you're mostly saying 'no' but not providing counterexamples.

Not all Beasts are going to feed off of Vampires. Because most Beasts are the kind of things Vampires run away from. The Beast with family feeding is the exception, not the rule.

How is it borderline impossible for them to create Heroes?

Also that 'despite what the draft would have you believe' is the core problem of Beast. What it says and what it does are completely opposite.

I didn't buy into the rhetoric, I read the draft. I was in the threads with the developer when he called everyone MRAs when they questioned his decisions. And not just 4chan and SA had this reaction, even the bleeding hearts of Rpg.net had people saying the same things about Beast.
>>
>>44779419

Check-out the first couple of links from DaveB's spoiler blog about Mage 2e. The entries are short, and they capture much of the feel and themes of the game.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/437565-second-edition-development-blogs
>>
>>44779419
>Mage: The Awakening
Your soul's connected to a higher plane, which you call down Magic from, which you eventually want to ascend to.
However in the way, there's a nasty Abyss which fucks your Magic up, and the destination is already ruled by monstrous God-Mages who wish to stop you.
>>
>>44779216
The only ones he seems to have been honest about there is Demons, but that's because it goes "no they don't get along, beasts think there's something very very wrong whatever the hell it is" (they probably don't like reality staring them in the face with glowing monoeyes)
>>
>>44779460
>How is it borderline impossible for them to create Heroes?
Because the rules for it relied on Dramatic Failures on a roll it was trivial to avoid.
Also, at no point does the first draft say that Beasts are all rapist murderers with no sense of self preservation who bust in telling all the supers they should be friends with a waitress' head still on their dick.
>>
>>44779460
>I was in the threads with the developer when he called everyone MRAs when they questioned his decisions.

What? That's a wired reaction.
>>
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>>44779696
Technically he didn't, but that's the way it gets retold, and frankly the real thing isn't much better.
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>>44779696

It's not really if you follow his vision. He saw Beast as the poor repressed minorities and Heroes as the establishment that hated them.

Beasts are feminists lashing out at their oppressors, who the Heroes and society represents. When people questioned the act of creating heroes as "they sound more like the victims than the Beasts" and he got tired of talking about it:

>(And, I note, once again Heroes smash their way in here and are all like "not all Heroes!" and "what about the Heroes?")


http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?751112-Beast-the-Primordial-teaser-thread&p=18869444#post18869444

Basically equating the people that questioned Heroes as not being utterly bad with the catchphrases of MRA's when it comes to feminists discussions. "what about the men?" and "not all men".

Making him look like an absolute idiot for insulting people interested in his game but having their doubts about it due to themes and driving home how absolutely clueless he was about it.
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>>44779835
He's said that if that was his vision, he would have done it better. Frankly, I'm not sure I buy that, but at the same time I don't see Beast as ever being the thing that many people say it is.
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>>44779304
>The problem with Beast is that everyone would rather listen to hearsay than figure it out for themselves.
I read Beast, dickhead.

Just because opinions disagree with yours doesn't mean they're uninformed.
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>>44780036
Your opinions disagree with the fucking book.
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>>44779419
The "gist" of Mage: the Awakening is "weird shit is all over the place and you can't ignore it, not that you'd want to, because poking around in weird shit is how you become a better Mage".
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>>44779304
Dude, what I know of beast is from having fucking READ the thing.

Much of the arguing back and forth in regards to heroes, for example, was because in both drafts we read, the heroes were shoehorned into "yes you have to think he's a complete asshole". It reminded me of that WotC article on how to make sure the players would understand that a character is bad and must be killed. "Sure everything's diplomatic and courteous, but look, look! she's actually a bad person that eats babies! By making her offer a nice plate of dead baby to the players, you've given her depth and complexity in a way they understand they have to roll initiative!"

Even in the later draft, heroes become people who have literally been forced by supernatural mental compulsion they literally could not defend themselves against into hunting the thing that HAS DESTROYED THEIR LIVES UTTERLY. The beast's very power and existence forces them into this, and they cannot stop it. AREN'T THEY SUCH MEAN DOUCHEBAGS, HOW DARE THEY BE SUCH ARROGANT MEANIES AND ALSO THEY BEAT THEIR WIVES AND DRINK. Then you get told this is mechanically the case as well because all you did was "teach a lesson" by deeply and intimately violating some aspect of your victims - whether it's the powerlessness of having important things stolen from them, or actual physical violation to soul-shredding and murder. You are such a helpful guy!

You read huge chunks of beast, from beast types to individual abilities to the entire hero system, and every couple of pages you just... stop. Because there's this gigantic, fucked up disconnect in the narrative and the mechanics.

Yes, even the mechanics. Stuff that doesn't even FIT the system's usual parameters and limitations is put in there. And the kin/family abilities? a lot of them are much more trouble than they're worth for the supernaturals involved. At BEST they're just leeching.
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>>44779948

That's its problem, its absolutely disjointed and fundamentally does not know what to do with itself.

It's unsuited for a cross-over game because of what Beast is and does. How it trivializes problems for other groups. etc...
Beast seems like the ultimate "That Guy" splat for WoD in terms of rules.

It's also unsuited for running an only Beast game because without the cross-over the game feels hollow. There are no social splats, no antagonists besides Heroes (and they're trivial). There's nothing to do as a Beast except be a dick to people. It's "planning to be an abuser".

Here's an Actual Play thread on rpg.net of the Developer running a game:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759812-Beast-The-Primordial-Roots-in-the-Community

Note post two:
>Make it a Beast story. Still figuring out what that means, but delving into darkness? Building a Legend? Expanding a Lair? Matt's character has room to add a Chamber, so that'll be fun.

He has no idea what Beast's stories are supposed to be ABOUT. It's a hollow game-line.
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>>44780068
Show us the book then because everything WE'VE read, you're the one who's wrong.

>>44780036
Hey remember who else was telling us we were all wrong despite the book, and that we were all just MRA's or whatever because the beasts somehow are the ones that are oppressed and persecuted despite everything they do?

Matt, in that RPGnet thread.
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>>44780075

My favourite part of the whole Hero - Beast thing was when there were people claiming that the 'Snow White' girl was a serial killer in the 'Senator Robert Thorn' way. ( https://youtu.be/fCm7cAM1HIg?t=5m16s )

That alone convinced me people wanting to play Beasts were not worth playing with.
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>>44780175
Wasn't 'snow white' the girl that got eaten or something in her dream and now can't escape the hellscape she's in without killing the "poor innocent beast" that did it to her? And because she's otherwise basically untrained and powerless, she can't even be sure if the one she's tracking is even the right one, because even that was taken away from her so she's just grasping at what little hope she can?

Yeah what a bitch.
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>>44775713
My first Mage book was Seers of the Throne. I would have to ask Bill why he decided to call antagonist Legacies "Left-Handed".
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>>44775444

No XP system for Familiars. You can increase an ephemeral entities' Rank with a Perfecting spell, but Familiar has a maximum Rank of 2, and if you increase it beyond that you break the Familiar bond.

The Familiar Merit has two costs, depending on if it's a Rank 1 or Rank 2 entity. 1e-style "fetches" are just Familiars that don't have the Materialize Manifestation.
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>>44780263
Not him but: Left-Handed paths were the term in sanskrit for paths (worship/attainments/methods) that were not at the extreme other end compared to orthodox methods. Not necessarily a heresy to be killed on sight, but definitely a "keep an eye on, they often turn out bad" thing.

There's also the western version, where left-handed was black magic, satanism, etc, and right-handed was white magic.
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>>44776313

Yeah - that shit is Tuesday Night for an Acanthus.
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>>44776794

Good god, no. You're thinking of Ascension, the WoD Mage game. In Awakening, the default state of Humanity, pre-Fall, was what's now called a Sleepwalker. Mages have *always* been freaks and assholes.
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>>44780075
>>44780142
>Wise Beasts understand, however, that Heroes are oftenthe people most in need of the lessons they can impart, and that instruction is more useful than violence. That being said, Heroes don’t always give them a choice.

>Beasts feed their Horrors with the terror of a nightmare, but Heroes “feed” on fear in a different way. If people are afraid — not just individuals, but a population — they look for something to hate and a leader to tell them what to do. In the far-flung mists of the past, Heroes were the ones who helped people understand and crystalize the wisdom that the Primordial Dream brought to them. Perhaps they were shamans, leaders, judges, or lorekeepers, or perhaps they were simply the women and men brave enough to enter the darkened cave and report on what they found there.
>Over time, the stories became more about the Hero than the lesson. Heroes became legends, gods, and saints. As the human population grew, the Hero’s understanding and relationship with the Primordial Dream changed. People who were once able to understand the wisdom of nightmares now responded with instinctive, retaliatory disgust and rage.

>Beasts often sympathize with Heroes, at least to a point. After all, even the noblest Beast is still indisputably a monster of the darkest sort of nightmares, one who preys on human beings to satiate her Hunger. Yes, she has her reasons, but not all Beasts exercise restraint, so perhaps Heroes are a necessary evil, weeding out the Beasts who go too far.

Dude, the book itself pretty much says "Not All Heroes".

Hell just going through and ctrl+f'ing every instance of the word "Hero" makes me want to revisit Beast to see if I can actually figure out how to do a Chronicle out of it. I only gave it a cursory skim through (which is already more than enough to realize most of the shit people are saying is contradicted by all these examples I keep greentexting) and couldn't think of what to DO.
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>>44770195
So basically not only are you ripping off Gotham to pad out a world so you don't have to build one as well as taking characters for it so you don't have to make them you're trying to get the board to write your game? You sound like a shit ST. I'd be 100% surprised if this game ever happened.
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>>44780142
>>44780497
Whoops, forgot my image. Here's where it basically says "Not All Heroes".
>The dominant narrative may be “Hero arises, kills the monster,” but the Begotten see that this narrative sells them short, demonstrates a breathtaking lack of faith in humanity, and, of course, winds up with dead Beasts. Heroes, on the other hand, seldom question their own heroism. This is what makes them so dangerous.

>At the same time, though, Beasts encourage one another to consider how their feeding affects the world. They must be more than the monsters from the stories, otherwise the Heroes are right about them.

>Is the Hero to blame for what he does? Beasts debate the question. Heroes seem to be operating on instinct as much as the Begotten.

>Heroes are hardly social animals, though. It’s called a monomyth for a reason. Heroes have no use for friends, no matter how fanatical their followers may be.
The book goes on and on about how Heroes and Beasts are two sides of the same coin. Heroes and Beasts are basically the same damned thing, except one is self-aware and realizes they're the monster under the bed, while the other one is delusional and thinks it's all about them. It keeps waxing on the "we're not so different you and I" train.

And since Beasts don't actually CREATE Heroes anymore, there's none of that "they're bullied and decide to fight back and that makes them wrong". They're literally oWoD Hunters.
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>>44780497

And that was only written in after a near riot on the forums about it.

I can upload the original document if you'd like, so you can compare.
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>>44779419
You know that scene from 'The Matrix' where Neo is looking at a mirror and all of a sudden it starts to melt like quick silver and next thing he knows he's waking up in a whole different world?

Being a Mage is like that. The world as you understood it is a lie a shadow of the infinite possibility that reality actually is. Magic is how you fiddle with reality shaping it to something that you can use.

To gain the power to steer your own path you need to uncover the secrets of the supernatural and their lies the rub. Because by unraveling the mysteries you understand how deep the lie goes. Everyone has their own agenda and you're just a pawn in the games of beings far more powerful that you can imagine.
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>>44780497
None of that is relevant to Beasts being horrible fucking assholes that other gameline PCs are just supposed to tolerate for some reason, though. Shit, just look at the PCs in Matt's AP.
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>>44780081
The only crossover I'd run with Beast is Mage. Because Beasts ain't got shit on mages.
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>>44780659
>The world as you understood it is a lie a shadow of the infinite possibility that reality actually is.
This isn't really the case anymore and hasn't been since like halfway through 1e, ever since they stepped off the "The Fallen World is fundamentally illegitimate and unreal" train.

Imperial Mysteries was meant to be the final nail in that coffin.
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>>44780509
>You sound like a shit ST
Player feedback says otherwise. I've got people who don't like me as a person saying I'm a good ST. I don't need the board to write my game, I just like getting other people's opinions before making a decision.

>>44780217
The reason she was a Hero--and an Antagonist--was that she was supernaturally compelled to murder people who did her no wrong. If you get mugged by a black guy, it's wrong to start killing black guys. Even then, her whole thing is changed, and it's now less antagonistic, and she's able to be "cured".

There's even a section on NOT killing Heroes. It involves either going into their dreams to spook-lesson them into realizing they're selfish egotists, hiding forever, or surrendering and trying to talk them out of murdering you.
As for Sleeping Beauty herself...
>Melanie breaks some of the assumptions about the Hero’s role in Beast, because she’s not a fanatical killer. She’s not nearly as self-centered as most of the Heroes that go hunting Beasts. She sustains herself by hunting in the Primordial Dream, much like Beasts do. A brood of Beasts could, of course, end her threat by killing her…but they could also help her get back to her body. At that point, would she continue her hunt?

>>44780564
I've got the original document. It... doesn't really matter, though. What matters is the final--or at least current--product.
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>>44780699
They're... not really horrible fucking assholes, though. And no one is supposed to just tolerate them.

Shit, if anything the final draft of Beast is a bit TOO wimpy. Too concerned with not being villainous. It's got all the problems that Vampire did.

Also, one the subject of assholes, we literally had someone asking for advice on being a Bloodbather earlier for fucks sake
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>>44780827
The supplement on Bloodbathers doesn't assume PCs from other splatlines are going to be best buds with them.

The problem isn't that Beasts are unrepentant dickholes, the problem is that Beasts are the Unrepentant Dickhole splat AND the Everyone's Best Friend splat.
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>>44780785

So they get spook-lesson Heroes about being egotists. Who spook-lessons Beasts about being egotistical dicks? Because if anyone needs Spook-Lessons about that, it's Beasts.

In regards to Melanie, Sleeping Beauty, I didn't bring her up as an example Hero or anything. I brought her up as an example of Beast fans being bugfuck insane. "oh the book tells us these Heroes are always assholes, but this one doesn't seem to be that. She must be a serial killer! It's so logical, I know plenty 15 year old girls who lure people into the woods and butcher them. It could definitely have happened. Look at her background she has a merit in manipulation. She's obviously a manipulative murdering sociopath"

Those people were fucking horrifying.
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>>44780497
You do realize what the *lessons* beasts "teach" are, right?

>Stealing things that you really treasure
>Destroying your professional life
>Killing innocents
>Stalking and staring at people at night because it gets off on being able to hold them completely helpless and at their mercy. Sometimes you just kill them.

And those they choose as victims?
Beasts TELL themselves they're teaching lessons like they were the motherfucking cookie monster. But they're not.

Even vampires aren't that deluded about what they do for unliving
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>>44781035
... she literally was a serial killer. Hell, she still is. You're just given the option to fix her.

She goes around helping others kill people. It's just that the "people" in question are Beasts. The people who feel that's justified are the same people that act like every vampire should walk into the sun.

Also? Other Beasts teach you spook lessons about being a dick and murdering people or being a shithead. It's in some of the stuff I've already quoted.

>>44780914
Beast doesn't either. There are whole sections of the book devoted to how other Supers might react, and how to convince them you're on the level.
Do I need to make more quotes from the book?

>>44781150
I'll give you that the whole spook-lesson thing is dumb, but vampires are just as deluded. Hell, Beasts don't have Baby Versus Dog.
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>>44781228

>... she literally was a serial killer. Hell, she still is. You're just given the option to fix her.

No, no she was not. Not until that Beast attacked her.

THAT was what they were saying. Before she even got in touch with the supernatural, she was a serial killer. Because all Heroes are unrepentant jerks even before they turn into Heroes.

So it's the police policing the police, that always works out well. "Of course we're correct, I mean we agree with us".
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>>44781228

>.. she literally was a serial killer. Hell, she still is. You're just given the option to fix her.

She's not? Her whole deal is that she helps lead other Heroes to the Lair of Beasts she finds in the Primordial Dream. She's an accessory to the Quest (which I don't think is an official term for hunting a Beast down but should be) but doesn't seem to partake, which is why she has so few Hero Powers compared to the other examples. Let's not get our words twisted here.
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>>44781228
>Beast doesn't either. There are whole sections of the book devoted to how other Supers might react, and how to convince them you're on the level.
>Do I need to make more quotes from the book?
I am talking about the design goals for the game that the developer explicitly stated.
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>>44781228

Jesus christ, Beast fans really are the worst.
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>>44780497
So, heroes are the crystallization of the self-defensive instincts of an entire population victimized by beasts and nightmares, when their hatred and fear of the things preying on them finally boils over into desperate retaliation, like a cornered rat. A hero emerges as someone somewhere finally awakens to an understanding of just what the fuck has been flaying on the locals.

Uh, how does this make them the bad guys?

Also that sidebar was a very, very last minute addition, and as it says, "not all". As if only a handful of them once in a while should be seen as NOT the wifebeating assholes, when all of them are effectively created in this way?
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>>44781347

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/beast-the-primordial-aa/794646-tumblr-otherkin-and-beasts
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>>44781228

The problem with Beast is that the book has been changed so much and so substantially that you have no idea what exactly it's supposed to be.

There's clearly authorial intent one way, but that failed miserably. The rewrites served to fuck it up even more thematically.

It was not a strong game at the start, it had no cohesive themes, no antagonists worth anything, nothing to do. The rewrites did not help and now all we're left with is the hot garbage it is now.

There mgiht be elements left to salvage but unless it gets completely rewritten it will never be good.
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>>44781287
>No, no she was not. Not until that Beast attacked her.
Yes, and? No one was saying she started out evil--although there was the rule that said "you have to be Integrity 4 or lower from not witnessing the Supernatural", but honestly I doubt the writers remember that--and what she was before coming into a chronicle doesn't matter.
I mean, shit, am I the only one who found her a compelling Antagonist?
"Oh no, one of us fucked this kid up and now she's leading people to kill us" is interesting.

>>44781290
"I didn't kill anyone, officer, I just told them who to kill".

>>44781347
I'm not even a fan for fucks sake. I think the game lacks a fundamental purpose. I just defend shit when people are being blatantly wrong.

>>44781293
Matt has never said that everyone loves Beasts and can never think bad about them. Even before the rewrites he said otherwise.

>>44781349
They're not the self-defensive instincts of an entire population (though they may serve that purpose). They're meant to be shaman and interpreters. They're basically the ones who interpret the Beast's lessons. The ones you're likely to find in a chronicle--as in, actively trying to kill the player characters--are people who've gotten the whole thing wrong because humanity is too big.

And, yeah, it's a last minute addition and Heroes are now drastically different (and have a purpose). This is LITERALLY WHAT PEOPLE ASKED FOR. They wanted it to change. It did. It's a good change, even. I don't care that it's a last minute addition, it's better than "you'll eventually dramatically fail this roll that you can never have less than zero dice on and only happens if you never ever feed, and that will create a Hero out of someone you abused for fun."

>>44781517
Again, all that matters is the final version.

Although... yeah, everything you said is why I'm not actually a Beast fan. It's aimless as hell. I'm hoping all those Kickstarter stretch goals make that better.
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>>44781481

Thank goodness that thread is mercifully short.

>I am just going to step in and say tread carefully, there are Otherkin posters here, so anything attacking Otherkin as a whole is attacking some posters here.

I mean, I get that you have to keep the peace on a non-anonymous forum but, like. It's not even the version of Otherkin that pretends to be a religion! It's just regular Otherkin! They can handle that shit!
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>>44781557

>Yes, and?

It's getting hard to debate with you in good faith, if you've been following the discussion you know exactly why that matters. Because the fans of Beast were trying to portray her as that to justify themselves. That's why it matters.

>"Oh no, one of us fucked this kid up and now she's leading people to kill us" is interesting.

Yes and it's THE ONLY HOOK POSSIBLE FOR HEROES. It's the standard. You can't do anything else with them but that.

Beasts being utter cocks to people and them coming for revenge is the Beast A-story.
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>>44781557

>"I didn't kill anyone, officer, I just told them who to kill".

An accessory to murder is not the same as committing the murder. The law makes this clear. Get your facts straight. It's important to talk about things as they actually are, just like you're claiming to do.

The problem with the the later justification is that even with "Heroes used to be Shamans, Beasts used to be the Messengers", the presented acts that Beasts do are petty at best and overly monstrous at worst, with only lip service as to how people do better afterwards. The evil Heroes do is just not enough to make them a compelling antagonist versus Beasts, and that's the ultimate problem. Since they're so focused on Beasts, and since Beasts have the potential to be so awful, they end up looking better by association. That's something that the re-write couldn't quite fix.
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The one thing that bothers me about Heroes is that they're a singular-splat villain in a game about crossover. There's some crossover in their section, but it would make them far more dangerous (and potentially far more villainous), if they were an antagonist against every splat in the WoD, including Hunters.
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>>44781708
Although hijacking their will to make them commit it through a supernatural compulsion they cannot resist for long - if at all - is fairly different from just "telling them who to go kill" too.
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>>44780479
>Mages have *always* been freaks and assholes.

Dave, I don't know why you're parroting that normie mortal propaganda nonsense.

If the monkeys are strong enough they too will Awaken. The Wise simply accept the heavy burden of leading the teeming ignorant and unappreciative masses and helping them achieve their rightful and proper state of enlightenment.

If our firm guidance and well-earned gifts render us "freaks" and "assholes' to the rabble, so be it. They should count themselves lucky we tolerate them at all with their repulsive and destructive shards of the Abyss infecting their souls and harming our magic.
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>>44781643
It's not the only hook. It's not standard anymore, either, Mr "keep up with the discussion". That's not even how Heroes work in the current version.

Also, there is no Beast A-Story. That's literally the problem with Beast.

>>44781708
Dude, I'm no lawyer, but I'm PRETTY SURE being an accessory to murder is still a pretty serious crime.

Heroes being somehow "broken" from what they're supposed to be is a much better story. They're also less controlled than Beasts, which is a good(ish) parallel. I honestly don't see Beasts as they are now as any worse than 1e's Vampires.

>>44781766
Can she do that? I already closed the book and didn't look at her powers.
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>>44781808
Mysterium pls go.

Even the Silver Ladder doesn't spout this shit.
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>>44781815
She? No.
I was talking more about heroes, as well as people beasts can brainwash that way.

Especially true against total mundanes, who often have no chance whatsoever at resisting anything any splat throws at them.
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>>44781815

The keep up with the discussion was about the part that you ignored in my response.

But clearly you're a troll, seeing as how you keep goalpost switching with every post.
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>>44781881
Beasts don't make Heroes anymore. That was in the first draft. It's changed. Heroes are... well, they're oWoD Hunters.

>>44781942
I'm not goalpost switching. My only goal is to get people to stop conflating what the book is.
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>>44781870

You're probably one of those self-righteous Nefandi Free Councilors.

Stop kissing sleeper ass and get out there and protect our magic before they destroy it all.
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>>44781987

>My only goal is to get people to stop conflating what the book is.
>>
What do you anons think about the Shadow Realm, Shadow Spirits, and the Purified immortals?
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>>44781815

>Heroes being somehow "broken" from what they're supposed to be is a much better story.

Oh, absolutely. But the problem is still that, even if Beasts are only as evil as your average 1e Requiem Vamp (Not sure why this is a dividing line but I'll go with it), Heroes themselves still don't come off as powerful, scary, or even villainous enough to compare to Beasts. And that'd be fine, if Beast was a full on "you are the villain" splat, but Beast aspires to be more than that, especially with its "take back the narrative" theme, which it tragically does little with. A Requiem Vampire is a monster, but when you look at the Brood and the Strix, I'd take the Covenants over them any day. Heroes are only a problem for Beasts, and the world isn't going to mind too much if one of them goes away, for all their bluster about teaching lessons. That is the fatal flaw of Beast, from which all other problems with the fluff arises.
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>>44781987
>they're oWoD Hunters.
You keep saying this, but what do you mean?
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>>44782049
Sure, I'll be happy to protect our magic, right over here in the Lorehouse. Half of this shit rightfully belongs to Sleepers your "Reclaimants" pilfered it from, anyway.
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>>44782055
Because if you're going to hate something you should hate it for what it actually is, not what you mistake it for?

Like, again, I'm not actually a fan of Beast. I just don't like people going "this game is LITERALLY RAPISTS".

>>44782161
They're empowered by magical otherworldly forces to fight monsters, and are myopic in how they do it. Instead of the Messengers or Ebon Dragon, it's the Primordial Dream. They're also able to do hero magic that in context feels like a good parallel to the whole "empower shit with your holy aura" schtick. Doubt it was intentional, though.

>>44782072
The problem with Purified is that becoming one is probably more interesting a story than playing as one. You don't just get bit or whatever, you have to actually go on a QUEST. Actually playing as one means the most interesting part of your life is behind you, and most of them would be boring PCs because they're nerds.
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>>44782581

So far the people that said Beast is flawed game and that it, in fact, does imply all the things they said are making far better points.

Most of your points seem to revolve and come back again and again to the same thing, which is that Beast is horrible. Thing is, you're not just clarifying, you were outright defending the whole Spooky-lessons bit. No one misinterpreted that, yet you wanted to defend that.

You keep going in circles, back to all the Hero things but you never even touch the punishments, you just focus on Heroes. I'm honestly starting to think you're a beast the way you keep hammering on 'Heroes aren't wut you think they are' while completely ignoring all the other stuff.
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So my group might want to try nWoD. We've done oWoD before so we're sort of familiar with basic storyteller system stuff. What books will we need? Will the most recent version of whatever supernatural we're playing be fine, or would we need to supplement it with GMC and CofD?
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>>44782738

Well, that breaks down to a simple question: What supernatural do you want to play?

If you want to play the currently released Second Edition books, it breaks down like this:

Mortal: Chronicles of Darkness, Core Rulebook (with the God Machine Chronicle Rules Update for some extra rules, if you'd like)

Vampire: Vampire the Requiem Second Edition (CofD Core Rulebook optional)

Werewolf: Werewolf the Forsaken Second Edition (CofD Core Rulebook optional)

Demon: Demon the Descent Core Rulebook (CofD Core Rulebook optional)

Beast: Beast the Primordial Core Rulebook (CofD Core Rulebook optional)

Hunter: World of Darkness Core Rulebook, First Edition, Hunter the Vigil First Edition, Mortal Remains.

Everything else you use the World of Darkness Core Rulebook and the first edition core rule book of the splat. For the games without a second edition, you can check the Onyx Path Forums for some God Machine Chronicle stopgap rules that you can use with CofD Core Rulebook to bring your game to a 1.5 edition, if you so desire.
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>>44782935
>Hunter: World of Darkness Core Rulebook, First Edition, Hunter the Vigil First Edition, Mortal Remains.
No
Hunter 2e, right now, would be Chronicles of Darkness, maybe GMC, the Hunter 1e core, and Mortal Remains.
You don't play 2e with the 1e core, anymore, friend.
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>>44782935
One would need the Core Rulebook to play Demon, wouldn't they? If I recall, that book just had the GMC Rules Update tacked on to the end, rather than containing the whole system.
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>>44783032

Shit, my bad. Yeah, do what this Anon says. You'd think I'd have that straight by now.

>>44783042

The CofD rulebook should work in lieu of using the 1e corebook, but yes, it does mention using the World of Darkness Core Rulebook, First Edition as a base.
>>
>>44782725
How are they making better points? I've even posted snippets that prove them wrong. Beast IS a flawed game, yes. But Beasts aren't just rapist assholes who only do evil.

Yes, they have Punishments that rely on scaring the shit out of people. I'm not defending that because why would I? That's the whole point of the game. You feed by making people shit their pants in terror. It's the age old Vampions problem of "do I feed on bad guys or anyone?"

I also haven't ignored the other stuff. It's just that likewise other people keep going on about stuff from the first version, like Heroes being made by Beasts.

I mean, the entire argument seems to be "every Beast is a shitty asshole and they pretend they're loved by everyone even as they ruin the Masquerade by raping and pillaging" versus... "no they don't". Sure, some do, and it's possible to play that way. It's also possible to play a Centimanus or Belial's Brood. But your less insane kin will probably kill you.
>>
Is there a quick rundown of the differences between HtR and HtV somewhere?
>>
>>44783489
They're completely different games. A list of differences would be as long as the books themselves.

The gist of it is that Vigil is about being a person driven to hunt monsters, while Reckoning is about someone who was supernaturally empowered by angels to hunt monsters.
Reckoning Hunters would fit in as one type of Vigil Hunter, but there are many other kinds, including people who have Satan's blood and can do half-demon things, and some who are government agents using super secret tech (or FBI agents who've had their psychic powers unlocked through drugs).
>>
>>44783573
>The gist of it is that Vigil is about being a person driven to hunt monsters, while Reckoning is about someone who was supernaturally empowered by angels to hunt monsters.
That's the sort of thing I was looking for, thanks.
>>
>>44783573
>Reckoning is about someone who was supernaturally empowered by angels to hunt monsters.
>Reckoning Hunters would fit in as one type of Vigil Hunter
Specifically the Knights of Saint Adrian, at least when you put it that way.
>>
>>44783573
>Reckoning Hunters would fit in as one type of Vigil Hunter
Hunter Translation Guide when?
>>
>>44783795
I would have gone with Malleus.
Although if you put together the Knights of Saint Adrian powers and the Malleus powers, you could probably play a decent Imbued with some refluffing.

>>44783982
Is there really that pressing a need for it? Doesn't seem as major a thing as the others.
>>
>>44784041

Some of the Reckoning powers were neat. I'd buy it at least.
>>
>>44784041
Isn't Hunter the fourth most popular game line after Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage?
>>
Do second edition vampires still have to worry about spreading such things as HIV?
>>
>>44781987

>Heroes are... well, they're oWoD Hunters.

Are they still 'Objectively wrong badguys'?

Or can they actually be good people?
>>
>>44784251

The book's answer is "yes, but we're not getting into that right now". Which makes sense considering how late this re-write happened but won't come off as very satisfying.
>>
>>44784083

I wouldn't be surprised. People like playing heroes killing monsters.
>>
>>44784251
Like it says in the snippet I posted >>44780559 here. There are good ones, but they're less likely to come across Beasts.
You can also help the ones you come across be good ones.

The ones that Beasts tend to cross paths with are the self-centered and flawed kind who want attention and praise. Heroes are basically bad guys because they're megalomaniacal.
>>
>>44784272

>The book's answer is "yes, but we're not getting into that right now"

Sorry to be a bother but to which question was that? 'That they are objectively wrong' or 'That they can be good people'?
>>
>>44784273

Wizards can also be heroes/adventures.
>>
>>44784317

And mage is also popular. Likely for similar reasons. And power trip reasons.
>>
>>44784298
No, he's saying that the book doesn't talk about good Heroes. It actually kind of does, though. Like, it really feels in some places like they're pushing "Heroes are not bad guys but you'll probably have to kill them anyway" thing too hard. Coupled with the fact that Heroes are kind of lame compared to powerful Beasts and it just comes off as being attacked by murderous babies.
>>
>>44784287

That's a lot better than it was.

I do hope that Heroes get solid rules for playing them some time. Preferably ones that are not just 'You are better vs Beasts' (As a lot of the beta powers were pretty shitty if you go up against a supernatural nasty that isn't a Beast' and even pretty shitty vs a beast)
>>
>>44784340
>power trip reasons
Hopefully that should be less of a problem in 2e.
>>
>>44784356
Hell, I'd even settle for Heroes as an HtV splat.
>>
>>44784298

That they can be good people. It does mention that they exist, but they tend not to show up in the game and the game isn't super interested in them as a result. A Good Hero probably Quests in ways that reduce the harm and damage of Beasts. I assume a Good Hero is the person that puts the security cameras on the roof where the Ugallu nests or calls the SEC on the CEO Tyrant.
>>
>>44784413
I don't think a Good Hero deal with Beasts at all. Like it says in the screenshot, they're more likely to work as clergy or give therapy. They may not necessarily like Beasts, but I reckon that unless the Beast is going on a rampage, they're not going to end up facing each other, and they're working towards the same ultimate "Primordial Dream" related goal.
>>
>>44784525

Well, depends. There are plenty of beasts who are unrepentant monsters. I can see even a Good Hero having zero issues wiping them off the map.
>>
>>44784525

I feel like even if they don't want to deal with Beasts, they're still going to be drawn to them because of the Hero/Beast relationship. It may be broken, but there must be a Hero to a Beast, and vice and versa.
>>
>>44781815
What do you do for a job?
>>
>>44779835
You know if that's the message he did it wrong. The problem is that it comes like a 13 year old fanfiction where he's the repressed minority and the guys picking on him are the bad guys even as he's chainsawing him.

Beast should be about playing fucking maleficent pre-shitty live action movie. Yeah so what you're evil. You don't give a shit. heroes may be as bad as you but you don't give a shit. If you are going to play the bad guys than this should be played straight.
>>
>>44784988
>Beast should be about playing fucking maleficent pre-shitty live action movie. Yeah so what you're evil. You don't give a shit. heroes may be as bad as you but you don't give a shit. If you are going to play the bad guys than this should be played straight.

But then Matt couldn't have Otherkin: The Righteous Revenging...
>>
>>44784606
>>44784573
That's possible, sure. But it's not like there aren't murderhobo Heroes already dealing with that.
>>
>>44785157

Considering that their "dealing with that" involves drawing people into a limited hive mind and generally fucking things up without care for collateral damage or the safety of others, it's probably still important for the Good Hero to balance things out. The hard split between Good Hero and Douche Hero might be what went broken, like the hard split between Good Beast and Douche Beast that the game implies is a thing.
>>
>>44785249
>Considering that their "dealing with that" involves drawing people into a limited hive mind
Do Heroes do that?
>>
>>44785361
I do recall being supernaturally good at whipping people into pitchfork-brandishing mobs being one of the powers they can have.
>>
>>44785361

"Hive mind" might be a bit too strong, but their powers can charm people into working for them, and this is how they tend to establish a posse, which is mostly used as meat-shields during the strike against the Beast.
>>
>>44785468
Not that they have much choice, and the people are probably less fucked in a fast fight with the beast than if it gets to continue doing what it wants to them at night.
>>
>>44769976
Running a 1920's game of Hunter. Having fun with it.
>>
Can the Proximi Awaken?
Can only Proximi who don't understand what they are Awaken?
Or does educating them in the use of their powers bring them too close to Magic to allow them to Awaken, much as it does to Sleepwalker retainer who serve Mages?
>>
I read Beast yesterday. It seemed really short to me.

The Powers section was tiny, the first chapters describing the lives and history of Beasts was really anemic and it read like a Beast's self-insert fanfiction instead of setting fluff, and the storytelling chapters were just plain boring to read. And the three endings thing was just weird, no other splat had that except Promethean and becoming Human was their entire thing.

I didn't hate it, but except for a couple of neat ideas with Lairs there's nothing that would makeme ever want to play it.
>>
>>44786905

Not only can Proximi Awaken, they are the humans most likely to do so. Nevertheless, there's still no reliable means to force or hasten an Awakening.

Dave, however, did mention that ordinary Sleepwalkers who learn about the supernatural or are inducted as part of Mage society are actually less likely to Awaken since they did not discover their supernatural revelations on their own accord.
>>
>>44786917
>I didn't hate it, but except for a couple of neat ideas with Lairs there's nothing that would makeme ever want to play it.

Join the crowd. I don't hate it either, but the best I can say about it is a shrug. Luckily, it's very easy to excise. Nothing about it demands inclusion.
>>
>>44786917
>>44787031

Lairs is one of the more original and interesting sections in Beast. Unsurprisingly, it was written by DaveB.

It's a shame Dave didn't develop the book. It probably would look a lot different, and the original drafts would definitely not resemble some fansplat otherkin revenge fantasy written by a tween.

Since Dave is developing the next new original CofD game line, Deviant, my expectations are significantly higher than they were for Beast.
>>
>>44787070
I'm just waiting for the Subtitle of Deviant. I feel like it'll go a long way to explaining the tone they're trying to capture.
>>
>>44787095
: The Fugutives?
>>
>>44787095
The Escape?
>>
>>44787095
The Reborn?
>>
>>44787095
It's not like Geist had anything to do with Sin-Eating.
>>
>>44787095
>>44787111

The earliest we'll hear the full name is GenCon 2106.

Dave's also spoken a lot about the tone and themes he wants to portray, and given examples of inspirational popular media, including anything by David Cronenberg, Sens8, Scanners, Guyver, Akira, Orphan Black, Komodo Dragons, etc.

In fact, Dave's set the bar VERY high for this project, and now let's see if he can deliver.
>>
>>44787111
>>44787117
The tone of these two would suggest the game is all about running, while the current description is more about taking your revenge.

>>44787125
Interesting. Too hopeful of a phrasing, though?

>>44787143
True, and one of Geist's problems is that it was scattershot on theme. Perhaps focusing on why they called it Sin-Eaters and not Geist: The Bound would help it come 2e time?
>>
>>44787143
>It's not like Geist had anything to do with Sin-Eating.

Reason #34665 why Geist was a big mess and poor seller with no sourcebooks of its own.
>>
>>44787161
The Vengeful?

The Unleashed?

The Reaping?
>>
>>44787184
>The Unleashed

I like that one has connotations that they were meant to be controlled, but no longer are.
>>
>>44787095

Deviant. No subtitle. A true deviance, even down to the name.
>>
>>44780785
>>Melanie breaks some of the assumptions about the Hero’s role in Beast, because she’s not a fanatical killer. She’s not nearly as self-centered as most of the Heroes that go hunting Beasts. She sustains herself by hunting in the Primordial Dream, much like Beasts do. A brood of Beasts could, of course, end her threat by killing her…but they could also help her get back to her body. At that point, would she continue her hunt?
"Good hunter, you've done well, the night is near it's end. Now, I will show you mercy. You will die, forget the dream, and awake under the morning sun. You will be freed...from this terrible hunters dream..."
>>
Maybe Dave will push for Deviant to be a personal vanity project based on his WW author "celebrity."

Deviant: the Brookshawing
>>
>>44781557
>"I didn't kill anyone, officer, I just told them who to kill".
That's... not a crime. Not at least where I live. You can talk about killing people all you want, if you tell someone you'd like someone did and they're not a hitman you've just hired, it's their fault if they decide to act on it. At best, you'll be blamed for some kind of carelessness in case they're known to be mentally ill and shouldn't be told stuff like that.
>>
>>44787168
They planned from the outset to only have one book. The name or poor sales had nothing to do with that.

>>44787286
Is that a reference or something?

>>44787328
That is most definitely a crime. I can not think of anywhere that isn' accessory to murder.
>>
>>44787303
Shouldn't that be Dave-iant?
>>
>>44787346
Do you live in North Korea? Most First World countries have free speech. Talking about wanting to kill someone might be socially frowned upon, but it's still not anywhere near a crime.
>>
>>44787303
>>44787363
>Deviant: the Brookshawing
>Shouldn't that be Dave-iant?

There's still time for editing before the official name release.
>>
I with they'd taken the Leviathan fansplat, and just pasted that into "Beast". Wouldn't have even had to write any original material. Just copy and paste.

Would've made for a vastly better game.
>>
>>44787346
>Is that a reference or something?
It's the line Gehrman uses right before you fight him in Blooborne
>>
>>44787303
Deviant: The Komodos
>>
>>44787303
Deviant: The Lizard King Chronicle
>>
>>44787442

I believe OPP is saving The Lizard King Chronicle for a Kickstarter reward.
>>
>>44787384
You do realize that aiding and abetting a murderer, and leading them to people to kill, is still a crime, right? Talking about wanting to kill someone is socially frowned upon. Leading a murderer to their victims is a crime.
>>
>>44787384
Actually, if they die as a result of your suggestions, then yes, it is.

Even without actual death threats, if you reasonably can be said to have influence over someone, and they kill a person at even just a mild suggestion or insinuation, you are in fact responsible.

This is partly to avoid mob bosses (and, pre 9/11, FBI and NSA types) being innocent of mass murder "just because" they "insinuated" they wanted it done rather than done it with their own hands.

While this can be hard to prove, it is well understood that certain things would simply not be ordered outright in a way that could incriminate oneself from simply stating it, but that language has many forms and methods to it, and that there are plenty of slang, lingo and insinuitive tricks of the tongue used to convey specific meanings and orders, with of course the implication that people who don't follow said orders are punished - even if these things were technically not stated as such.

It's no different from deciphering code, really. Because that's what it is.
>>
>>44787566
Let's not forget Manson, who is still in prison for conspiracy even though he likely didn't kill anyone himself.
>>
I just realized, you could pull of Mage Tony Stark rather well with Matter and Forces, maybe dip into Spirit if you want to have a version of JARVIS.
>>
>>44787775
Wouldn't flying Thaumium armor be a freaking paradox magnet?
>>
>>44787801
According to Dave, that wouldnae be an issue in 2e.
>>
You know, the concept of Kinship Nightmares is pretty cool.

>Befriend a monster
>It represents fear in some way
>Use the Primordial Dream to learn to emulate that fear
>Spookem powers
"It's dream shit, I don't have to explain" is a pretty viable reason for why Beasts can do stuff indicative of other supernaturals.
>>
>>44787775
>maybe dip into Spirit
Mind would probably be better
Most Spirits are... Pretty weird.

Add in a little Space and Double-Shape, and you can have the suit switch places with a tailored suit at will.
>>
>>44787833
This is getting rather good. I'm personally juggling whether his primary attribute block should be Mental or Social.
>>
>>44787921
Either's good. With a bit of mind, you can enhance your mental stats, and even pull entire skills out of the Astral Realms.
>>
>>44787989
another dirty great question is what Path he'd be, I'm personally thinking Mastigos with Matter and Forces, but this could be a horrible idea and I could be utterly wrong.

I'm guessing the best bet for his Order would either be Free Council or just Unaligned.
>>
>>44788101
I've got a couple of ideas:
1. Mastigos with a strange fixation on Matter (normally their Inferior Arcanum) who has some sort of weird Legacy based around Matter.

2. Moros Uncrowned King with a bit of Forces knowledge. Works on his Power Armour (or crafts new suits) as his self-examination practice, seeing his own soul in the shell he crafts for himself.

I'm really liking the second one, the more I think about it.
It's even thematic, for a Free Council Alchemist.
>>
>>44788162
If you take his backstory as his awakening, it definitely has moros undertones - stuck in a cave, confronted with his mortality, building something great out of junk.
>>
How do you prevent Mastigos from very quickly ending up with permanently maxed Mental and Social Attributes and every single Skill? Or Thyrsus from turning themselves permanently into Captain America, on the genetic level?

Rules as Written, both those things are laughably easy to pull off.
>>
>>44788192
Dissonance. Dispellation. That thing apart from Dissonance where spells can't be truly permanent on living patterns. Spell control limit. In 1e, spell tolerance.
>>
>>44788192
They're actually harder than you think.
>>
New thread

>>44788254
>>44788254
>>44788254
>>
>>44788214
Sure, you need to spend a dot of Willpower, but what's a tiny bunch of Experience in return for permanently maxed out damn near everything with a couple of Rituals?
>>
>>44788192
You need 5 in an Arcanum to boost multiple attributes for more than a few days, and even then it lasts but a month. Plus that takes up spell tolerance, takes up an active spell (unless you spend Willpower) and is visible to other Mages.
Same story with skills, except there are even MORE to choose from, so you've got to prepare, or spend AGES ritual casting.

In both of those situations, you limit dice rolls to their dice pool, which they'll need a higher stat to accomplish.

You also need 5 in Life for the Captain America, though it does solve some problems with spell tolerance.

This should be entirely fixed in 2e though, as ritual speed is just a slower version of instant, not an extended test.
Ritual casting is probably the worst part of 1e. You can cast utterly ludicrous spells. For example, Diplomat's Protection with 20 successes, meaning nobody with a Resolve that isn't more than 20 can attack you.
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