Did anyone ever use these in a game? How did the fight go? Will they ever be statted for D&D 5e?
They were among my favorite 3.5 monsters besides the turlemoi.
> statted for 5E
They were in the Epic Level Handbook in 3.x, so not until 5E gets one of those, I'd wager - if it ever does.
Remember that in D&D it is typically outright impossible for a small group to beat a single monster with a CR 5+ more than the group's level.
I mean, with that many powerful attacks per turn, plus flight and all the other nonsense, it was basically a one-creature army.
I had my players find a stone tablet with Vengeful Gaze of God inscribed on it. They figured out what it was and were too afraid to touch it. One player wouldn't even stand near it or look at it. It was just sitting there in a display case in a dude's abandoned swag vault.
I was going to say I'm pretty sure it doesn't fly but then I realised it has it as a spell like ability
Strangly for a high level 3e monster it only has a few spell likes its a nice change of pace you can ground it with an antimagic shield but you still have to deal with all the arms
>A gloom is an assassin that cloaks itself in supernatural camouflage, lingering in the periphery of vision and stalking its prey from the deepest shadows. A gloom looks very much like a human from the neck down, with dull, rubbery black skin. Its head, however, is another matter. Completely devoid of hair, the gloom also has no eyes. Its distended, exaggerated mouth, drawn back in a perpetual fiendish smile, is full of jagged black teeth. Despite its apparent lack of ocular organs, a gloom seems to have no trouble seeing. A gloom typically dresses in fine clothing suitable for a funeral (stylized for the local culture), snug fitting and all black. A gloom is armed with a +10 keen dagger of human dread. In the hand of any other creature but a gloom, the dagger is a +5 keen dagger. A gloom has the uncanny ability to reach its prey by moving from shadow to shadow—literally. Combining that with its knack to remain totally quiet, the gloom often is able to attack and vanish before its prey’s companions even realize something is wrong.
Fear Gaze (Su): Viewing the gloom’s face inspires terror. Creatures that meet the glooms gaze must succeed at a Will save (DC 32) or suffer the effects of a fear spell as cast by a 20th-level caster.
Opportunist (Ex): This ability functions like the rogue class feature of the same name.
Sneak Attack (Ex): A gloom is able to sneak attack as 25th-level rogue, dealing 13d6 extra damage.
Quiescence (Su): A gloom is constantly silent, as per the silence spell, although the area does not extend beyond the creature itself. This quality gives it a +20 racial bonus on Move Silently checks (it is still possible for a gloom to create noise, such as by bumping into something that scrapes on the floor or by sounding a chime). The gloom can lower this effect at will.
Apart from the fear thing, this is just an epic rogue, with less feats and items.
Yeah, at level 45 and divine rank 6, my dwarf fighter was able to solo one. That was before we used the divine array for ability scores and he didn't have enough salient divine abilities. The second time he fought one it was also statted out as a deity of equal rank and ECL, and we fought each other to a stand still.
I know, but I mentioned it because D&D does not really do army-on-army rules and that's basically what the PCs would need to defeat one of these things if they are still capped out at level 20.
> you can ground it with an antimagic shield
> Antimagic Field
> Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
> 10-ft radius
> centred on you
You really gonna walk your caster up within 10' of this thing knowing you won't have any magical protections on you to resist it? And all that just to get it on the ground? It's no use dispelling the Fly spell either since it's an at-will spell for the monster. Not that you're likely to succeed at such a casting given that it has Spell Resistance 70.
In Greek mythology, the Hecantonchires were used by the Olympians to defeat and then imprison the Titans. These things are built to kill Gods.
You forgot its Epic Feats: Blinding Speed, Devastating Critical, Overwhelming Critical, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, and Superior Initiative
> Blinding Speed
> 5 rounds/day Haste as free action
> Devastating Critical
> Crit causes DC 33 fort save or target dies
> Overwhelming Critical
> Even more crit damage
> Sneak Attack of Opportunity
> AoO gives sneak attack damage
> Superior Initiative
> +8 init
The +10 Human Dread dagger is nothing to scoff at either. It's +14 against humans, does extra damage against them, and when it crits the target makes a DC27 fort save or is turned to dust.
With True Strike in there as an SLA, I think the idea with this guy is that he's supposed to be the perfect assassin. So it's not so much that he can fight the party to a standstill as that he can kill a dude and be out of there before anyone even knows what happened.
The safest place to be around a hekatonkhire (I prefer the wraith/exalted spelling) is in melee. Anywhere else it can throw 100 boulders at you a round, twisting around in a tornado of arms and tearing up the earth and flinging EVERYTHING at you. Up close its limited to only like 10 or so rounds.
Read the description again. The "press of limbs" cap on attacks (under "Superior Multiweapon Fighting") is for *both* the melee and ranged attacks. Max attacks with either swords or boulders is 20 for Large targets, 15 for Medium, and 10 for Small.
With equal numbers of attacks, the swords are deadlier. Ranged 2d8+20 crit on 19+ vs Melee 2d6+20 crit on 17+. The wider crit range means the swords can be expected to throw out more damage on average.
Illithid Savants can eat their brains and become epic level rogues, too.
They look like this, if anyone was interested.
Not at all, they're just an indoor monster. By the same token you could say the gibbering orb is worthless against high level PCs, because its eye rays are only 300' and high level PCs could fight it from 1100' feet forever.
Eh, we had been playing the same dudes for years- even after everyone else switched to 4e and Pathfinder. Guess I better not tell you how far the campaign got- not sure you can be butt hurt enough
Okay... and? High level PCs, in the wrong environment for the orb, can just shoot at it from 1100' feet forever until its dead. In both cases, you probably want to put them in environments where the PCs can't do this.
I still never understood why people got so wigged out by high level stuff. If you don't mind a little book keeping, then whats the harm? We had one campaign that was truly epic and lasted for years. It pretty much started around the time 3.0 launched and went on for a while. We ended up switching and using the stats for Ascensions with our deity characters, eventually. Nothing like getting punched by neutronium golems.
Well, I can relate on that level. It took quite a bit of work making things last for as long as they did. We don't play those characters much now, but I still work on mine. I was working on a huge super villain who could possibly fight our whole pantheon of characters- doubt I'll ever get to use him. One day, I guess.
>Epic level PCs can choose the environment.
In the sense that any PC of any level can chicken out of a given adventure and stay home potentially, sure.
Most parties, epic or otherwise, are not going to start shitting their pants as soon as they're in a hallway with a not vaulted enough ceiling and immediately pull their pet beholder death tyrant out of their bag of holding and order it to begin spraying disintegrates absolutely everywhere in the risk that there may be glooms nearby.
Is the elder titan the strongest pre-statted 3.5 monster for its CR, in the CR 18+ category?
This guy can cast as a 29th-level wizard with EPIC SPELLCASTING and still wield Colossal weapons with Strength 45 even while in the shape of a 2-foot-tall halfling child.
I don't think you understand what high level spells and epic spells can do.
>I don't think you understand what high level spells and epic spells can do.
Of course I do. For epic spells, the answer is "anything the DM allows." For high level spells, the answer still boils down to either you go on the adventure or you don't.
If you want to have your wizard suffer a panic attack and begin frantically disintegrating everywhere when he's in narrow terrain because glooms may be around, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with the monster that was referenced and the DM has plentiful ways of thwarting or punishing PCs who engage in shameless terrain destruction.
In addition to flight, glooms also have no ability whatsoever to address Solid Fog, illusions, invisibility, Displacement, Mirror Image, or even, you know, Mind Blank and Heavy Fortification.
Seriously, level 20 WBL is 760,000 gp.
Third Eye Conceal (permanent Mind Blank): 120,000 gp
+1 Heavy Fortification armor (or bracers): 36,000 gp
Hathran Mask of True Seeing: 75,000 gp
Level 20 characters have immunity to all mind-affecting effects, divinations, precision damage, critical hits, and illusions for just 30% of their WBL.
I'm afraid we've wandered from the flying topic, which was all I wanted to correct. The basic problem with epic D&D, above all more fixable issues like math, is that you have a mix of very cheap absolute effects (ie fortification) and very expensive scaling effects, precision based characters get crappy fast even if fortification armor never shows up, etc.
>team of 4 level 20 druids using hurricane to prevent boulders and pin the hecatoncheries in an area. (using rules for creatures in strong winds)
>build a flying platform approximately 100x100
>move platform over the hecatoncheries
>Summon Monster IX to summon 1d4+1 humpback whales (average 3-4 of them)
>humpback whales weigh about 66,000 lbs
Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.
For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).
Fly my whale army! Bring your 350d6 doom upon my enemies!
Anyone know what the bonus experience is for killing a CR 57 enemy as a party of 5 lv 20 characters?
But their 20/Good and Epic and Cold Iron DR would take quite a bite out of every boulder that you drop on them. Not to mention your whales will be subject to the high winds too- some of them will probably miss. Unless those boulders are tempered in the blood of a deity, then our hundred-handed friend will get regeneration. Not to mention if he gets mad enough to summon another hecatoncheires. I always loved the thought exercises that the Epic Level Handbook spawned.
>It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
>The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.
>A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.
>When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
>This spell functions like summon monster I, except that you can summon one creature from the 9th-level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 8th-level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list.
Celestial Baleen Whale is on Summon Monster VII list, so 1d4+1 of them.
>Can't be summoned into an environment that doesn't support them.
Basically means you can't summon them into danger (i.e. into the air where it would fall to its death, or directly into lava, etc). Whales breathe air, and summoning them onto a flying platform and then commanding them to dive bomb an enemy is perfectly viable.
What are you claiming it doesnt do?
Tornado 175-300 mph
Ranged attacks/Seige attacks Impossible/impossible
Large or smaller - Blown away DC 30
Huge - Knocked down
Gargantuan or Colossal - Checked
The whale would just be checked, but the Hecatonchires is knocked down, can't fly and can't throw anything.
But my point is, it doesn't need to. Its getting its DR on every "whale attack", its got fast healing and regeneration (so its fast healing is doubled). Even if you manage to knock its HP down, it'll keep getting up. You guys will run out of spells eventually, and when you do, there will be a very angry hundred-handed one right there who can summon a buddy to pound you too. I'm not saying they can't be beaten; just think this plan needs more polish. Just to be clear; I'm not arguing with you, bud. Just helping to spaghetti test ideas.
Each whale does 350d6 so - 20, that would still average something like 1200 damage a whale. And with the wind all focusing down on the hecatonchires, they would have an easier job of hitting their marks.
Even if it summoned an ally, it would be pinned too, and a second summon casting would provide a few more whales to drop.
It has 1048 hp, and takes normal damage from good weapons. Creatures with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
Celestial Whale - body slam bypasses its regen
You guys know that beating a hecatoncheires is trivial at mid levels with touch attack builds, right?
CR 57 my ass.
Yup, the celestial whales would overcome the good and chaotic portions of its DR, but its also needs cold iron to overcome. I'm not sure about the DR on the whales, but it usually is treated as being "made" of any material type that could bypass its DR. In any case, the whales have sufficient damage to pulverize it. I still can't imagine the Hecatonchieres just letting a squad of casters get these spells off without hurling a few boulders at them (I mean before they start pinning him to the floor with hurricanes).
Cool beans. I hate it when I post stuff on here and people just shoot it down out of ignorance or spite-especially when I'm just trying to help.
A buddy of mine and I once sat down and, combined with the epic level handbook and stronghold builder's guide, devised a way to use these things to act as the engine for a fortress that could get up to moving many times the speed of light, via a very expensive, very magic dependent version of the commoner railgun principle.
Never got it into game, but the numbers held up even if I can't remember the details anymore. That was the most contact I ever had with these things.
Man, I'd love to see a copy of that- one of my buddies from this game...
...based his character of a cleric who specialized in crafting items- chief among these was his flying fortress.
yeah, getting the drop on the hecatonchires is the hard part, but if you can bribe a few lower level characters to act as a decoy (and die badly), it could work. Then you just True Resurrect them later.
I'm more curious if anyone can do the math for how much Exp a party of 5 lv 20s would get for a lv 57 encounter due to the rules for bonus exp for higher challenge battles.
Just build a whale chute in the flying platform. Aka: ramp.
Well, not to be a kill joy for your flying whale armada, but the most xp you can get from an encounter is an entire level, and one point before what you need for the level after that. I would say this would qualify if you manage to pull it off.
I have maps for the level requirements from level 1-150. 130 is as far as I ever got. After a while, it simply became easier to think up the most ludicrous situation possible for a level, and say- do that to level up.
If the DM is being VERY nice, he will let the whale hit the hekatoncheires on a natural 20. At which point, you can make a SR 71 check (utterly impossible), and then the DM may allow you to roll dive bomb damage.
Wouldnt it be more of a splash damage thing if it missed anyways? Besides, its like a 20x20 object trying to land on a 15x15 creature, even with a little deviation, the chances of hitting would be enough.
A 20 would be very generous.
>no wings, no ability to guide themselves
Also, its cool seeing these "nature revering" druids use animals as disposable fodder.
That's how you druid.
Well, a good druid knows that summoned creatures return to their home planes if "killed" during a summoning spell. We already said that they were celestial whales, so they would head on back to mount celestia after dispatching the Hecatonchieres.
A smart druid knows that summoning spells don't actually summon any real thing, they create an idealized representation of that thing. It springs into existence when you cast the spell, and returns to nothing when it dies or the spell ends.
If you want to traumatize a real creature by wresting it from its home plane and sending it to its death, you need a calling spell, not a summoning spell.
I used a Xixecal in a high-level campaign once.
The PCs defeated it by dropping a petrified whale stuffed with black powder and explosive runes over its head. They also dropped a bowl of petunias, which took away the last HP of this thing.
In the same campaign I used an even more scarier version of a Dream Larva. It was a being of the Far Realm, so laws of the nature didn't fully apply to it. And by rules of nature I meant RAW. Basically, Far Realm entities could break the rules of the game while at least partially manifested. It was the thing that made them so unnatural and scary.
An insane epic level caster tryed to summon it into her body as a final "FUCK YOU" when she was on the brink of the defeat. Fortunately, party's wizard managed to win some time, as he was lucky enough to memorize Resist Possession spell. And then several elven High Mages (It was in the Faerun's High Forest) teleported and sealed the thing.
Still, the mere presense of a partially manifested Dream Larva killed half of the party on spot, ignoring all their defensive spells as if they weren't cast. They came back a round later, saved by Contingent Revivify + Contingent Heal spells.
>Wouldnt it be more of a splash damage thing if it missed anyways?
See, this is why I despise munchkins -- you guys simultaneously try to argue RAW and RAI.
You are trying to make an aquatic creature suicide itself, in a hurricane, without it having a way to control or guide its flight.
The idea is dumb and you should feel dumb.
In the original plan, it was a flying airship whaling vessel with enough deck room to summon up to 5 humpback whales.
Well, actually, the original plan used earth elementals, but whales were more fun.
I think that only applys to summon natures ally and maybe not even then
For summon creature it comes from another plane and goes back when it dies or the spell runs out a calling spell on the other hand takes moves it to the plane your on permently.
The dmg auctualy has something to say on the matter of xp rewards for beating creatures far above your cr with tricks like that I'm going to bed though so you will have to find the page yourself. I think it's only a sentence or to though
>but the rules say exactly this
>wat? I need to roll? Why?
Dropping whales is as stupid as stupid can be. Wtf game do you faggots play? Some kind of roadrunner d&d?
You don't have to roll to enter another creature's space, why would you roll to fall on one? Effectively, you're turning a whale into a giant grenade. If you roll to hit, you'd be rolling to hit a square, not the creature, and then if you miss, you'd roll deviation.
"an environment that doesn't support them" is more than just not being able to breathe. Whales out of water can't move and can't even sit still without being crushed by their own weight. That's why beached whales are in immediate danger of death and can't just hang out breathing air until the tide comes in.
Have none of you people even read the stat block for hecatoncheires? It's in the SRD, so you don't really have an excuse. Even if you could summon whales in midair, which you can't, they would only take nonlethal damage from falling whales due to their regeneration. And that's assuming that you could even hit its AC of 70. Considering that it's only Huge sized, you'd be lucky if it even took full damage from more than one Colossal falling whale, as subsequent whales would likely slip off of the first one and not land squarely in a pile.
It still seems like a highly inefficient method, because every round it passes its save, it gets to wail on you for another round. And even if it doesn't, that's another 64 rounds you have to wait for it to even begin making Con checks for suffocation. And unlike Save, You don't auto-fail on a 1 when making checks.
That's all assuming, of course, it's not straight up immune. The wording on the Abomination type is pretty vague.
Actually we got much higher than level 45... Like much higher. These characters ended up becoming the new pantheon of gods- it was really fun. Basically, as you pointed out, nothing could hurt us out of the pre-made content. Eventually we took turns making new threats to the world and pantheon. When nobody had anything going, we had a ton of political intrigue between the characters. Its funny when you get in an argument with your friend, but decide its a bad idea to duke it out. When you can both easily destroy the world you are on, you eventually decide the fight isn't important in the long run. Arguments were usually decided by pitting our champions against each other, which was much more safe for our material realm. When the gods were angry enough to fight each other, we usually had meeting to settle the dispute- ended up sounding very much like discussions for nuclear disarmament. It was fun. Sorry if our fun was too overpowered for the rest of you guys, but I kinda got the idea that was the timber of the discussion. Didn't think it would bother you guys so much.