Isn't level 16 a little too low for Drizzt?

I'm mighty confused about those Fighter levels myself.

Are they going by the logic that he wasn't really a Ranger until he met Mooshy?

>>44746818
I used to think he had much more levels as Ranger than Fighter levels

>>44746832
He was already one of the best swordsmen in Menzo. by the time he decided to leave, on par with or beyond Zak, and Zak was one of the best weapons masters to ever live. The ranger levels came during his years of exile out of necessity plus a little training from mooshy after he came to the surface. The decade of hard training from the drow gave him most of the skills he needed to survive, the rest would be fairly easy for him to pick up.
Plus this was from the Forgotten Realms CS, right? That was printed how many books in the drizzt series ago? Since then he's gone through some excessive shit.

>>44746936
>The ranger levels came during his years of exile out of necessity plus a little training from mooshy after he came to the surface.

No, that's where the barbarian level comes from. That barbarian level is also where he got his.... "Hunter?" persona. Not sure if that's exactly what he called it, but it was that mindless, berserking desire to stay alive.

>>44746980
I'm calling the ranger levels during that time period because 1 level of barbarian won't really do dick for survival in the underdark. Yeah, that's a major part of the hunter, but he HAD to pick up some tracking and survival ranger-style just to live longer than a month or two.

>>44747011
I will argue that the barbarian level suffices, because barbarians are not exactly at odds in nature either.

Ranger implies a measure of trained discipline. Drizzt simply did anything and everything he could to survive, even to the point where he developed an animalistic persona in the process.

Also, one level of barbarian isn't as minor as you might think, especially when that level is his 11th altogether and on top of a CR2 race..

Reminder that nearly everything in LotR can be simulated in 5 levels because D&D is actually a really high powered setting.

16 is a reallly high level to have, is my point.

>>44746787
He's always been a 16th level ranger.

File: drizzt.jpg (4KB, 505x32px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 505x32px

>>44746787
Of course it is, that's why he counts as 5 level 21 creatures.

>he went up 6 levels between The Crystal Shard and Siege of Darkness

>>44747509
You didn't?

>>44746787
>Isn't level 16 a little too low
I am sick of this entitled attitude amongst a lot of gamers today.

"What? We have to roll up level one characters? But that's so boring!"

"Man, are we only starting at level ten? Low-level campaigns suck."

"What do you mean you won't let me combine the five most broken aspects from various obscure splatbooks into a level one character using the 'Apprentice' optional rules? That's my right as a gamer!"

No. Fuck you.

In any sensible setting, commoners are level zero. Adventurers represent the chosen few with remarkable talents, the drive and ambition to succeed where others would only fail, diving blessings or a glorious fate. This is how they have the ability to far exceed what a normal person can achieve.

You might expect some really powerful NPCs to be level nine or ten - the archmage running a magic school, for instance, or an ambitious warlord who managed to unite the steppe tribes under his banner - and these are the cream of the crop.

Once you reach higher than that, you should become legendary. People probably sing of your exploits wherever you go, and normal challenges start to lose their lustre for you.

It doesn't matter how many nests of goblins, or minotaurs or whatever that you exterminate - they won't be a challenge, and you will need to quite determinedly seek ever more incredible goals. Global conquest, casting down the supernatural on their home planes, stuff like that.

Level 16 is fucking high.

>>44747643
A friend of mine found this article on the subject :
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

For the author, you stop being "human" past level 6.
The top of the top of humanity is level 5 : Einstein was a level 5 physicist for example.

>>44747643
Calm down there grandpa, you don't want to have a heart attack.

>>44747732
Damn kids!

>>44747643
This.

>what lv are we starting at?
LEVEL 1 YOU STUPID FAG!!!
>can I play a half demon winged Medusa/Minotaur?
>I SAID CORE!!!
>I start with a +3 bow of slaying, its a family thing
>NO.

Back when I started gaming...we were happy to have a stick. And we started at lv neg 4... And we liked it!!

>>44746787
>be dritzz
>spend years training under master swordsman
>called the best, in a city of masters
>given powerfully enchanted blades
>have inborn magic and natural resistance
>have a huge panther magical pet that has human intelligence
>gonna live for 1000 years
>go to surface, add ranger skills to already impressive talents
>get ass kicked by Artemis.
>face him again, still can't kill him
>and again...omg hate him!!
>face him again.. Grrrrr he escaped
>mfw a street rat human that started with nothing..is a close match after 30 yyears
Bow to your human betters you drow fucksticks.

>>44746787
>height: 5 ft 4 in

ELFLET
L
F
E
T

>>44748887
Wtf, is he a gnome or something?

>>44747643
>Once you reach higher than that, you should become legendary. People probably sing of your exploits wherever you go, and normal challenges start to lose their lustre for you.
Uh, this is kind of what happened to Drizzt. Granted, people don't exactly SING of his exploits, but he's quite well known throughout the Northern realms of Faerun, and he's now accepted despite his Drow heritage even by the most zealous paladins and elves.

>>44747643
He has, among other things, beaten a balor by himself. That's not something a level 16 martial should generally be able to do. This discussion is not - or at least shouldn't be - about entitled players(or indeed, any players). It's about the capabilities of an established character and how well they line up with the official stats.

>>44748930
With that blade, aided by a magic panther...not that impressive really.

>>44748751
Even when I was a fetus and thought reading those books was a good use for my time, it struck me how elves were either super special super magic snowflakes and utter, incompetent imbeciles, depending purely on what the plot demanded.

But then, this came from an author who wasn't very good to begin with, improved little over the span of 10+ years, and did most of his later work because he was somehow forced to.

>>44748908
D&D elves are alien-faced midgets.

>>44749027
Fucking drow and other elves...
Why everyone in the setting didn't hate them, and activally strive to hunt them, is beyond me.

>>44749057
No shit.
A drow city is located? Rally an army.
Kill them all.

>>44748993
You mean the blade that shouldn't even be able to HURT a balor except on a crit? Balor's have DR 15, neither of Drizzt's scimitars can pierce it being neither cold iron nor good aligned let alone both, and he doesn't have enough damage bonuses to deal more than 15 points of damage per hit unless I'm missing something(or 3.0 balors were significantly weaker than 3.5 version)? Of course, the stats for the scimitars are likely wrong as well, but by that statblock, he should have hard time being able to hurt a balor enough for it to consider him a threat, let alone defeating one.

>>44749160
Ya. By the stat block.

In the book, its a "cold, demon hating" blade of devil killing.

>>44749057
Because the drow aren't much of a threat compared to something like orcs. They spend most of their time in the underdark too busy backstabbing each other to do more than a token raid against anyone living in the surface. And they live in the underdark. Sending an army there is a good way to lose an army, drow or no.

>>44749160
I think twinkle was 'good ' aligned?

The stats aren't in sync with the books.

>>44749160
It's a lot stronger in the books (possibly in AD&D, never saw his stats for that). It's basically has a limited intelligence/need/want/whatever and FUCKING HATES fire.

>>44749233

Kill Drizzt in Baldur's Gate, and you get Twinkle. It's a +5 defending scimitar that can only be wielded by good-aligned characters.

>>44749224
True.

So we round up all the surface elves, and relocate them to the under dark.
>all elves gone
>I'll have a coke

>>44748887
Elves are short, drow are shorter, the males the shortest

>>44749235
>>44749233
>>44749208
Even with weapons more in line with the books, I'd still say that he'd have hard time dealing with Errtu(or whatever the balor was called) with those stats.

>>44749282

In FR though, Sun and Moon elves use the human height tables, and Drow use the regular elf tables from the PHB (at least, in 3.x they do).

>>44747643
I had a DM who had a similar mentality. He then got angry at us for starting a merchant company in order to fund methodical excavation of his plot dungeon instead of just running in so he could rape us with his retarded traps and monsters.

>>44749057
In FR, elves did a good job of making themselves irrelevant on their own, and Drow don't have the numbers or the power to be a major threat. Books are kind of shit at illustrating how Drow would fare when dealing with a large surface city, since the humans are portrayed as naive, incompetent and ignorant for the purpose of drama, and two score good and neutral gods are apparently fine with minions of whatshername spider nobody rolling all over tens of thousands of their flock.

Also, angry genocidal neckbeerds are probably too niche a market for either books or games to cater to them.

>>44749476
Too niche?
Let's see...
>twilight
>harry potter
>50 shades of ghey
>Avengers busting bloc's

You'd be surprised at the niches out there.

>>44749629
>angsty teen girls
>non-angsty teens(for the first half of the series, anyway)
>people who like BDSM but are afraid to look at actual porn or try it themselves
>teenage boys and people who want to watch shit blown up on big screen

Okay, I guess Harry Potter is kind of niche, but the rest are pretty big markets.

>>44749629
Those aren't necessarily 'good' things.
Granted they did start niche-y, and them move mainstream.

>>44749720
They weren't big markets at first.

>>44749758
Since when have "people who want to see shit blown up on big screen" not have been a big market? Have you seen literally any big budget action movie?

>>44749361
Shame, I would totally be up for running something like that. It doesn't sound too far from Acquisitions Incorporated...

>>44749629
A handful of losers on 4chan who open any slightly elf-related thread to post 'boy I sure do hate them niggers' are a bit more obscure than a vampire romance flick, a competently reinvented British boys' school novel, light BDSM erotic novel and AAA capehsit.

>>44749825
Comic based.

>>44750021
Not much difference really.

Those 4chan guys make up some if the market as well.

How many of you faggots read/watched twilight furpedofest?

>>44750105
Comics have always been niche.
On par with RPGs...often crossing over. As in sharing customers.

>>44750021
Nigger elves?

Orcs are the niggers anon.

Elves are just pedofagtrannys.

>>44750105
It's not like there's anything new about that, either. Comic-based movies may not be a stable similar to, say, spy movies, but Avengers was hardly the first(or even second or third) comic-based movie that was a success. Plenty of people who don't actually read comics will go to see a movie about Batman or the X-men or whatever if they're at least passingly familiar with the hero(es) in question and it's hyped up enough.

>>44750156
You need to leave your basement more often. Everything you've listed is very popular. Popular enough to have high-grossing movie adaptations. 'Racial Holy War: Elf Edition' is not popular, not even here where we know what the fuck you're talking about.

>>44750416
Not popular yet....

Can you honestly predict wtf wotc is going to do in fr next?

I wouldn't be shocked to see elf war, or gnome rape, or other shenanigans.

And popular is an ever changing thing.

>>44750416
Twillighfag detected.
>buttmad about calling twilight niche
>omg basement dwellllller!!!
kek

>>44750482
Anne Rice has been pushing that crap out for longer than you've been alive.

>>44750482
That's some weak trolling. Accept you've made an ass of yourself or do your fucking homework.

>>44750508
Yet never had near the success of twilight.

So, is Anne rice just for basement dwellers?

>>44750531
So its declared that vampire stories, comics aren't niche.
But RPGs are...
The other anon is correct. Vamps and comics used to be very niche. Only talked about by basement dwellers.

Now tho...much more mainstream. Even popular.

>>44750592
Yesterdays nerd shit..tomorrow's popular stuff.

It happens.

>>44749253
>hello friend, can you help me with these gnolls?

>>44747643
>>44748623

I mostly agree with you and I'd actually argue Drizzt is actually really weak for a level 16 character, but seriously, fuck starting at level 1.

>>44747643
>In any sensible setting
Wait, I thought you were talking about d&d

>>44750635
Opinions vary.

I only want to start at lv 1.

>>44750635
>...but seriously, fuck starting at level 1.
Pretty new to D&D here, but I thought that starting at level 1 was the default and anything else was against the rules. Now I feel stupid...
What level does most people start at (I know campaign dependent), but I mean from your personal experience.

>>44748887
Noldor is best elf.

>>44750684
3-6 is a good place to start at. Nets you enough class features but without overwhelming you with choices from the start.

>>44750684
Not a "rule" thing.
Its just something only faggots with weak/lame DMs do.

>>44750592
I remember when WW was kicking TSR's ass and getting easy goth pussy was simply a matter of starting a Vampire group. I kind of miss those days.

>>44750684
Starting at level 1 is the default, and also probably the best choice for people just learning the game. But there has been rules for starting at higher levels since forever, and starting at later levels is so popular that 5e even outright says that you should probably start at level 3 unless there are new players at the table.

>>44749297
And indeed, he did have a hard time. Errtu nearly killed him every time they fought.

>>44750684
Level 1 sucks because that's the level where you have to write up a new character because random orc #4 gets a crit on you. It's really not that unlikely to happen, it's too early in the characters' story to really get any drama from a group member dying and it's way too early to really have alternatives other than Greyhawking their shit and rolling a new one.

I personally don't like starting under level 3.

>>44750721
Lol
>high school time
>have a d&d group
>parents give a $150 gift certificate to bookstore
>I buy vamp books
>first vTm game? Me, and 4 goth chicks and 1 longhair dude from another town
>ask goth chicks to hang out after game
>80% success rate in nailing goth chicks

Fuck yea...good ol dayz

>>44749253
but if you kill him, doesn't that make you evil? So how are you suppose to use it?

>>44750801
Faggot detected.

>>44750592
Reasons. Hot, seductive, eternally young vampire boys that are actually 500 years old are popular with women. Cape comics make for good Hollywood blockbusters. D&D doesn't really have anything worth stealing or adapting by the entertainment industry, since it's a cheap derivative itself. The only D&D thing I could see getting into the mainstream through osmosis are drow and tieflings, as competition for the vampires in romance flicks.

>>44750840
Nah.
You picked allingment at start. It didn't change.
Pick LG, and play CE...didn't matter.

>>44750801
>Level 1 sucks because that's the level where you have to write up a new character because random orc #4 gets a crit on you.

...man, you suck at games if that keeps happening to you. I've played plenty of level 1 characters, never lost a single one, for a number of reasons - mostly related to having friends who can stabilize me before I die, for example.

Having said that, my preferred starting level for most games is level 7: Seasoned adventurer with a number of adventures already behind him, but plenty of room left for advancement.

Conan around the time of "Queen of the Black Coast", basically.

>>44750812
I feel bad for kids who are into table top games these days. I see people complaining about being kissless virgins and shit when RPGs were the thing that got me laid the most in high school and college.

>>44750845
Nigga please, in 3.5 a CR 1/2 Orc crits an average of 13. At level 1 that can straight kill people dead. A level 1 Wizard could go from full health to -10 with one lucky crit.

>>44750894
He'll be the same fag that brags about how unbeatable his PC is...and how the game is unbalanced because nothing can harm his power character.

>>44750926
That's the game.
Its dangerous being an adventurer.

Take the training wheels off and play.

>>44750894
So I suck because there's a mathematically possibility of getting one shot with no chance to stabilize? Okay.

>>44750942
Yes, because me complaining that level 1 combat is too swingy and lethal is me totally talking about how great characters I make are.

>>44750926
That's one orc. Vs 4 PCs.
>omg!! It might hurt my PC!!!

>>44750978
I don't disagree with that sentiment, I do disagree with there being any upside to having to reroll a new character in the first session because of random probability.

>>44749057
Drow were practically shoot on sight on the surface, but their main cities were so far underground, and psychotically well defended, that nobody could really bother. The underdark is no place to take an army.

>>44750982
Pretty much.
You make shit characters. I have no doubt about that.

Personally I think the best place to start is around level 4 too. More than that seems a bit much.

I'm okay with level one though, it's a lot more important I get to play a race that isn't core. If I can't do that, then I'm out of there, no questions asked.

>>44750840
Video game. You'd have to kill him about a dozen times to become neutral, then a few more times to become evil.

>>44751015
Gotta have a bit of random bro, or else we're just doing free form roll playing.

>>44751041
I think the issue is the effect of the randomness is too severe, not that it exists at all.

>>44751025
>I wanna play a cn winged minatour binder/hexblade/animal tamer druid!!

Holy fuck....

>>44750982
>So I suck because there's a mathematically possibility of getting one shot with no chance to stabilize?

You suck because you allow yourself to be in that situation at all. You're level 1, and therefore, frail - so take that into account with your tactics. Never be more than a move action away from your comrades excepting when the odds are extremely in your favor (the foe is a single injured kobold that's trying to flee, for example).

This isn't even metagaming; in-universe you're just starting out as an adventurer and will still be intensely aware of your own mortality, while you haven't yet built up the ego of being able to tear through hordes of schmucks that would lead you to take dumb risks, confident that you will survive.

>>44750978
Losing your character to a small series of bad dice rolls is not being hardcore, it's wasting the time you spent rolling that character.

>>44751024
You're one of those faggots who refuses to play anything but a gray elf Wizard with a hummingbird familiar that uses all your level 1 slots on Color Spray, aren't you?

>>44751055
Eh.
I always pictured new characters as unfield tested noons.
Great potential, but one wrong misstep and its over.

There is a reason adventuring isn't done by everyone.

>>44751069
Most encounters start at a distance of less than 120 ft. Assuming the orc gets lucky with initiative and assuming the terrain allows for charging, there's a very real chance of one PC being dead before any tactics become relevant.

>>44751074
Change in the way the game is played. When D&D first premiered it was *expected* that the vast majority of player characters would die at some point. Adventures like the Tomb of Horrors even included pre-rolled extra characters for just such a possibility.

The idea was that you would grow connected to a character that actually survived as he leveled up, rather than put too much effort into the character at 1st level when death was a nearly-sure thing.

>>44751067
That sounds like a really ineffective character, so I don't think it would be a problem.

I meant more like playing an aasimar or a genasi or something.

>>44751101
So you conflate starting characters with level 1 characters. It should be easy enough to stop if necessary.

>>44751069
This.

>>44751112
Lol

>>44751074
OK.
So remove the dice.
Just free form it. Its safer that way, no danger at all.
Fag.

>>44751120
The said change is caused by changes in the game itself. Until 3e, making even a high level character was a relatively simple affair unless you were using tons of sourcebooks and even then there wasn't that much more to add once you had your ability scores, race, class and possibly kit or spell selection or some other rather minor extras. In 3.x and later, making a new character - especially a higher level one - is much slower.

>>44749282
Didn't one house breed their males to be 6ft?

>>44751188
>>44751074
We always managed to find a middle ground.

>>44750978
>>44750926
>>44750894
>>44751015
The real issue here is that you shouldn't be allowing yourself to get hit at level 1.

Every level of DnD is brutally lethal for people who don't assure fights go their way.
Get information, scout ahead, make a plan, and then blitz the enemy before they can adequately react. If you're playing properly you should be completely prepared for each encounter, especially at levels where crit range is deadly.

Almost any proper CR appropriate encounter can be beaten by this method without a drop of blood by your party.

>>44751120
When D&D was first premiered there was no meta or 'D&D culture' and everyone played as they saw fit.

ToH was an intentional meatgrinder because it was made for a con, and parties were supposed to compete for who gets closest to the finish line. It's not a guideline for how to run a good D&D game, or indicator for how we used to play D&D.

The idea that you don't bother to name or describe your character until he has 40 hit points and good standing with local clergy is okay for a bear&pretzels game of clearing a dungeon, but kind of not conductive to roleplaying.

>>44751277
this

>>44751266
"No battle plan survives the first contact with the enemy." And all of that assumes that pretty much everything is going perfectly in the first place. As far as I'm aware, no first level character gets abilities that allow them to avoid all ambushes and if your GM is letting you plan every combat blow by blow before it even starts, he's rather terrible at his job.

>>44751112
>there's a very real chance

It's actually not terribly likely. Most monsters critical only on a natural 20 (5%), and then have to confirm that critical. A 1st-level wizard can reasonably be assumed to have an armor class of 16 (+2 dex, +4 Mage Armor), so confirming the critical requires a roll of 16 or better (25% chance), after having already rolled a natural 20. Your typical monster that a 1st-level adventurer might encounter has an attack bonus average of +2, so you can bump that confirm chance up to 35%.

Now, I suck at math, but I'm pretty sure that to find the overall probability of the critical happening we multiply .05 times .35, which gives us .0175 - or a 1.75% chance.

While 1.75% is "very real", it is also "very small".

(Orcs are far more likely to score criticals thanks to both their higher attack bonus and their falchions giving a higher crit chance - however, a level-appropriate encounter of orcs (CR 1/2) for 1st level characters is only 2 orcs, verses a party of 4 adventurers. Simple action economy still weighs heavily in favor of 1st-level characters surviving).

>>44751341
>>44751266
I think we can find a middle ground here as well.

>>44751361
> +2 dex
> reasonable

How is having what is extremely high dexterity, by comparison to the average peasant, reasonable for a character that doesn't need dex?

File: modern elf.jpg (122KB, 560x800px) Image search: [Google]

122KB, 560x800px

>>44748751
>Bow to your human betters you drow fucksticks.

Tha's actually something that comes up in several books where elves and human exist side by side. And deep down, though they'd never admit it publicly, it's why elves, as a rule, are absolutely terrified of human civilization. They know they're being outpaced, outbred, outfought, out-advanced and just straight out outdone by the ever growing power that is humanity.

The main part is psychological. Elves, living so long and so individually powerful and capable, move slow as a people. A flight of whimsy for an elf can last centuries. They've achieved incredible power, secured their lands and built a powerful, long-lasting civilization, and essentially stopped there. Because if it ain't broke, why fix it? They're stable, prosperous, wealthy and secure.

Humans, on the other hand, are eternally in survival mode, and so are constantly pushing the boundaries of technology, magic, social engineering, tactics, ect. Humanity as a whole won't be satisfied until they're on top and secure there. And since there's always someone or something bigger, humanity will keep pushing.

The elves, and dwarves for that matter, know that they're need to get their game on if they want to keep up, or even just remain independent, if things manage to go peacefully at all.

>>44751382
What I'm suggesting IS the middle-ground.

>>44751361
Good math bro.
Also, I have lost 1 total character to an orc at first level.
Not from a crit, but because I should have fled, but stayed till I got flanked and smashed.
>bad choices.jpg

>>44751341
If you're walking into ambushes, it's because of one or more of three things, in descending order of likeliness:

1. You suck at planning and recon as a player.
2. You chose the wrong job for your characters as a player.
3. Your GM is forcing (railroading) your characters or is playing a purposefully high lethal game.

If 1, get fucking good and send the scout forward and do some research.
If 2, your characters with no PER ranks should not be the ones leading a caravan into unsavory hostile ambush spots. Hire a PER expert (sage) or get a different job that fits your skills.
If 3, you joined the wrong game if you're bitching about this.

And since we're throwing around pointless quotes, "No enemy survives first contact with my battle plan" is what you should be aiming for.

>>44751277
>but kind of not conductive to roleplaying.

Remember what the game started as. Roleplaying was not part of the original design goal, and of course it's taken years as a result to break that mold.

Even still, I personally find it somewhat fun - as a diversion, not as the main game - to go back to the days when you roll 3d6 straight down, then choose your race and class, and then start praying.

>>44751266
>any proper CR appropriate encounter
is where it breaks. Because low-level characters are permanently and irrecoverably fucked if they get jumped by something over their weight category, and they don't have many tools at their disposal to prevent things like that happening. Being tacticool only works when you are facing four CR1/3 kobolds in a cave and you're not in much of a danger anyway. Because the moment odds get a bit even, or someone screws up, or you lose some non-trivial resource to a bad roll, that swingy d20 is going to be what decides who lives or dies, not your preparation or tactics.

>>44751382
I don't really care about finding a middle ground. The middle ground isn't always right.

He raged in one book, had duel wielding (this is 3.0 so that's why ranger, though also because he's called a ranger a lot) and other than that he's just a fighter. No magic or animal companion (gwen is a magic item).

16 is pretty high level. I think they just made them whatever level they needed to be to have every single thing they ever did. Artemis was level 18 because they gave him 1 in ranger for all the duel wield, 1 in assassin because he's an assassin even though 1 level isn't worth much.. Then fighter/rogue because fighter is op.

Really you can't worry much about it, it's just something they threw together for that forgotten realms campaign setting book. It doesn't even tell you when those stats are for.

>>44751411
Not really

>>44751400
I agree.
And I want to see more of that in books.

>>44747643
>"What? We have to roll up level one characters? But that's so boring!"
It's boring because in D&D, level 1 is boring, and leveling up from level 1 is boring. Classes don't start to get their cool stuff until about level 5, in 3.5 at least.

>>44751397
Assuming default array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), which 3.5 is built around, I assume your typical elf wizard looks like this:

STR 8 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 15 WIS 13 CHA 10.

Having said that, even a mere +1 DEX on a human wizard (-2 DEX +2 CON as compared to the elf), thereby lowering the AC to 15 (and thus being hit 40% of the time assuming a +2 attack bonus) only increases the chances of being subject to a critical hit to 2%. So the chance of a critical hit remains "very real" but still "very small".

>>44751448
Wut?

>>44751528
Another faggot detected

>>44751468
Artimus had a rank of ranger? Wut?
Who decided that bit of fuckery?

>>44751448
The choice when faced with overwhelming odds is retreat.
Being "tacticool" includes knowing that.

>>44751432
So you're saying that first-level play isn't lethal as long as your GM caters to your every whim and makes sure you can't possibly lose as long as you make a good show. Gotcha. Does he actually make you roll dice or is he just letting you declare your every dice roll to be nat 20?

>>44751594
It took our group a while to learn that.
Tpks and PC death because we had to keep going deeper...was common.

Then one day one of us said " fuck that let's head back to town ", it was an alien concept.

>>44751615
Drama queen much?

>>44751590
Probably for the free Track feat. He was mentioned many times in Streams of Silver and The Halfling's Gem to be an exceptional tracker, who had never failed Pasha Pook.

(it took him years to find Regis but Regis was supposed to be that good at hiding).

>>44751662
More urban tracking tho?
Also the halflings fuck ran faaaar away.

>>44751615
I'm saying that if you're not playing a game that intentionally starts with "YOUR CHARACTERS ARE TAKING SUICIDE QUEST FOR REASONS", and instead assumes you're playing characters with an inkling of self-preservation, then the onus is on you to make sure you survive.
This includes backing off from quests that are too dangerous/not in your skillset, planning ahead, scouting ahead, gathering information, etc.

It does not require the DM to go out of their way to cater to you, only to not create a world that is intentionally devoid of options. If the DM is *going for that* and you *knew of that ahead of time* then complaining about it is sorta retarded on your part. If your DM was going for that and felt no need to inform anyone, it's bad communication, and if your DM doesn't want anyone to take a choice that doesn't go on his plotline, it's railroading.

>>44751696
I dunno, I'm just trying to justify it. Personally I would have rolled up Artemis as a Fighter/Rogue/Assassin, using one of the spare leveling feats (since so many feats are being provided by simply being a fighter) to grab Track.

>>44751760
Same here.
In sellswords book 2, artimus flat out says he can't track in the wild.

Your lvs look right really.
IMO.

>>44751704
And you're wrong. First level characters simply aren't that competent. Your scout isn't going to be able to walk into the enemy formation and gather intelligence every time without being spotted. Sometimes the enemy may be coming up from behind you or even from the sides, so the scout will be in the wrong place to spot them in the first place, and since you're emphasizing scouting so much, there's a very real chance that the party will not be at full strength when that happens. Just because the GM doesn't bend over backwards to make sure your characters are never in any real dangers doesn't mean that he's a railroading asshole, you're just an entitled faggot.

>>44751361
I mean, the orc doesn't even need to crit.

An orc using a great axe with 18 strength (reasonable for an orc) & power attacking does 1d12+6

Since he is charging his total to hit will be +6. So a 50/50 chance of the wizard going unconscious. Not dead though mind you. Death comes at the second hit.

This will put the wizard at unconscious at minimum.

>>44751848
Oh, and I'm not talking about some super-lethal game here, either. I'm talking about perfectly normal game where the GM simply doesn't fudge rolls to keep the PCs alive.

>>44751361
Orcs crit on 18-20.

>>44751661
He's kind of right. The other guy is assuming some sort of sandbox where the party has all the time in the world to compensate for having shit stats and no immediate options and can simply opt to not do anything that seems risky. Which is a very nice kind of game, but really not representative of anything other than itself.

There's also the sad and hilarious attempts at being tacticool with low-level D&D characters, which only really works if you're not actually facing something dangerous and one character sheathing his weapon mid-fight to stabilize another is not a prelude to 'only the thief got out alive.'

>>44751848
>All gameplay takes place in wilderness with randomly spawning mobs in all directions
Do tell me more.

Your players should be operating from a relatively safe hub, should be planning ahead and should be researching the enemy.
Having basic knowledge on how to set up a headquarters and do research isn't something that is limited to level 1 or not.

>Your scout isn't going to be able to walk into the enemy formation
And that's not needed, at all. Find a hill, set up on it, get some binoculars.
Go read the rules on perception and stealth checks since you clearly don't know them, and look at the difficulty of spotting a level 1 with decent Dex (+14) and a maxed stealth (+4). Add any form of camoflauge. Now add the penalties per 10feet from trying to spot someone at distance.

Even an incompetent rogue can sit in place and take 10 all day to get decent info. The rest of the party can visit a library, gather information, or protect the rogue.

One day of information is often more than enough for threats at level one.

Unless your DM consistently forces you into a reactive position by throwing literal armies at whatever town you're making your base of operations, then you're absolutely safe to do this.

>>44751898
That's a custom monster, though. The default orc in the Monster Manual has a STR 17 and is using a falchion for 2d4+4 damage, or an average of 8 damage. That's enough to drop a wizard, but not kill him. This is assuming the orc can even get to the wizard: he has to get past the Fighter, the Cleric, and the Rogue first.

This is leaving aside that the wizard can put both orcs (again, an orc is CR 1/2, meaning a level-appropriate encounter is only 2) asleep using the Sleep spell most of the time. Orcs have a -2 Will save modifier and a Sleep spell can be reasonably assumed to have a DC of 13 (10 + 1 (spell level) + 2 (caster's stat modifier), which an orc makes only 30% of the time (the orc needs to roll a 15 or better).

>>44751928
I touched on that. Orcs are more likely to score criticals, but a level-appropriate encounter is only 2 orcs, verses an assumed party of 4 made up of a Fighter, a Cleric, a Wizard, and a Rogue. Simple action economy weighs in favor of the wizard surviving, particularly as long as the adventuring party follows proper marching order.

(Fighter up front, then Cleric, then Wizard, then Rogue, though depending on the situation it might be wise for the Cleric and the Rogue to switch places).

D&D 3.5 is built around baseline assumptions for its challenge ratings and leveling system and so on. The DMG for 3.5 says that it's okay to deviate from these assumptions BUT if you do it's gonna throw things out of whack.

>>44751977
I'm sure your characters will be very safe since they never take up anything more dangerous than farming, but I thought we were talking about adventurers here, not dirt farmers.

Researching can help, but it's not going to tell you that an orc is going to stumble upon you from north-west at 10:30 local time while you're in a thick forest.

Standing up on a hill either a)makes sure that all enemies in the area know where to find you or b)is very little to no use at all, since you're not in a wide open plateau where you can see any potential ambushes.

You can't take 10 while threatened, you most likely can't see all the enemies while standing still at one, perfectly camouflaged point, you also need to get to and away from that point and the enemies get to make multiple checks to each of your hide/move silently checks since there are more of them. Oh, and if you're just sitting there all day, there's more than even chance that someone eventually finds you by stumbling over you even if you're perfectly invisible.

>>44751951
General reasons parties take risks outside of their capabilities, in descending order:

>Player sense of invincibility
Most common, which is your own damn fault
>Player laziness
See above
>THOU MUST from the GM
GM problem or don't complain if you knew this was what you were getting into
>THE PROBLEM IS COMING TO YOU from the GM
Same as above
>"My character is an idiot who won't preplan"
Then you don't deserve to complain when your character's idiocy gets them killed
>Picking the wrong fucking job
You have 3 full plate fighters, do not go on a sneakthief mission.
>Actually low on resources and having to do a job AND having no marketable skills in the meantime
This is really up there with "why are your characters dumb as dirt", and is the only reason you should ever take stupid risks; because your characters are dirt poor and are unwilling to live that life and would rather gamble on a stupid risk.

>>44752218
He's kind of right. The other guy is assuming some sort of sandbox where the party has all the time in the world to compensate for having shit stats and no immediate options and can simply opt to not do anything that seems risky. Which is a very nice kind of game, but really not representative of anything other than itself.
There's also the sad and hilarious attempts at being tacticool with low-level D&D characters, which only really works if you're not actually facing something dangerous and one character sheathing his weapon mid-fight to stabilize another is not a prelude to 'only the thief got out alive.'

>>44752218
You forgot the most important one: The PCs not having perfect information, because it's a roleplaying game, not a tactical wargame. You're just repeating over and over again that you never get ambushed when you have perfect information, when the reality is that if your GM actually gives a crap about running an immersive and engaging game, you'll NEVER have perfect information unless you have the resources of a level 20 character to pour into getting it.

>>44752161
>Taking two days to scout is the equivalent of taking infinite time not adventuring
Anon.
>Making up a thick forest full of orcs that your players just decide to walk through with no information
Pls.
>Being in a spot far away enough that spot checks fail mean that everyone knows where you are
ANON PLS
>And because the information you get isn't perfect you shouldn't be attempting this at all gosh
PLS ANON
>You can't take 10 while threatened and you're totally threatened 100ft away in cover
ANON
>And lol random stumbling will definitely find someone because you didn't at all figure out patrol routes. Your character who is stealthed and camo'd totally would just sit there and let someone literally walk into them if so, because I know how all possible characters work. Also your rogue is definitely not going to take the surprise round if they are close to being found out and use their actual class ability to gain the edge in the ensuing trouble, both by having a surprise round and doing more damage.
ANON PLS YOU'RE HURTING ME

>>44746787

Well, first of all he's ECL 18 being a drow and all that.

>>44751590
Because in 3.0 you got duel wielding at level 1 from ranger. That's why they gave him the level. Y'all over thinking it, whoever made these just gave them everything they could to make them op and have the stuff they do in the books. Though the tracking idea is good and would have been clever.

>>44752289
You don't need perfect information, you just need to be vigilant about *getting* information.

If you can't get enough information to give yourself good odds of success, you *back off it like reasonable people* unless forced.
If you are forced, it falls into one of the above GM reasons and really probably should have been brought up or discussed that the campaign will start with you in a town under siege, or escaping an area blind.
If your DM is *forcing* you to take a quest that has nothing to do with your characters otherwise and is unsafe, that's a railroad son.

>>44752288
If your characters don't have the capability to act like reasonable human beings with some modicrum of free choice, that's because you chose a character with that problem or because you agreed to the GM's plan of making a game with that setup.
See the list.

>>44752465
>If you can't get enough information to give yourself good odds of success, you *back off it like reasonable people* unless forced.

So you never take any quests, then. Gotcha.

>>44752345
>>You can't take 10 while threatened and you're totally threatened 100ft away in cover

Eh...while I'm generally on your side, I feel the need to point out that "threatened" is a fairly broad term. If spotted, your character will be set upon by orcs; ergo you are in fact "threatened" by them, at least in my book.

Now, having said that, the MM orc has a Spot of only +1 (decreased to I think -8 due to distance - I don't remember the rules offhand but surely the first 10 feet of distance don't count), while a 1st-level Rogue (DEX 17, 4 ranks in Hide/Move Silently) has a +7 on Stealth checks.

So on average the orcs have a Listen/Spot result of 2 while the Rogue has a Hide/Move Silently result of 17. Even with the Rogue rolling a 5 and the orcs rolling a 15 (so H/MS of 12 verses L/S of 7), the orcs don't notice the rogue.

>>44752417
That spell of Darkness is sure paying dividends at level 18.

>>44752465
He's kind of right. The other guy is assuming some sort of sandbox where the party has all the time in the world to compensate for having shit stats and no immediate options and can simply opt to not do anything that seems risky. Which is a very nice kind of game, but really not representative of anything other than itself.

There's also the sad and hilarious attempts at being tacticool with low-level D&D characters, which only really works if you're not actually facing something dangerous and one character sheathing his weapon mid-fight to stabilize another is not a prelude to 'only the thief got out alive.'

>>44752502
At 100 feet away, the rogue isn't going to be able to gather very much information.

>>44752502
As an addendum. The orcs still can potentially spot the Rogue. But that sounds like a chance for HIGH ADVENTURE!

Failure isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least not from a gaming perspective.

>>44752547
Read the thread

>>44752567
If the spot is lowered by effective -9 by the distance, the rogue is 100 feet away.

>>44752518
Big stat boost
Darkness is handy
Faire fire..handy
Darkvision
MR
Immunity to charm etc

Yea, its handy

>>44752547
He'll be able to gather at least a little. Say I'm a rogue and I spot, say, 4 average-sized campfires (don't need to make a check to see them due to the light). It's reasonable to assume that each campfire has between two and five orcs around it.

That means that there's between eight and twenty orcs.

And that means it's time for the party to...

1) GTFO and find backup;
1a) and trust that the DM isn't sending us on a suicide mission
2) Lean heavily on the party face and hope he knows Orcish or that the orcs know Common, attempting to figure out what the Orcs want and can they go away, please?
2a) and trust that the DM isn't sending us on a suicide mission
3) Charge in blindly and get ourselves killed
3a) but that's our own damn fault.

>>44752544
If being 100ft away from enemies that aren't aware of you is threatened, but there might be some downside to being caught, then you've effectively removed 90% of intended uses for take 10.

No take 10 on Spot, Listen, Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Survival, Swim.... Anything where the failure is a "threat" if we take that interpretation.

>>44752498
>Angry train sounds

>>44752607
CTRL+F binoculars

Also there's a difference between making spot checks on people actively hiding in camo, and making spot checks on people moving around in a camp.

>>44752778
Binoculars were spoken of in a different context.

>>44752728
> then you've effectively removed 90% of intended uses for take 10.

You have a point.

>>44752778
>CTRL+F binoculars

But binoculars aren't really available in most D&D settings. There are spyglasses, but they're 1,000 gp apiece, *well* beyond the range of a 1st-level character's wealth.

>>44752639
Orcs have darkvision, what makes you assume they have campfires in the first place, except for cooking food?

>>44752868
>except for cooking food?

What else are campfires are used for?

>>44752608
Stat boost that only bards can properly benefit from, also a hit to constitution on a character that is already bound to lag behind in hit points department.
Darkness is handy at low levels, just gets you mistaken for a thick wizard on higher levels. Same for fairy fire.
Darkvision saves you some equipment money.
MR is massively overvalued, weaker than it seems because it's tied to your character level, and doesn't affect a broad variety of spells.

ECL+3 is way too much. It's not a Drow (monster) that jumps the party at level 4 and fucks them in the ass with SLAs, +3 gear and poison, it's an elf with some bells and whistles tacked on that will eventually cost tens of thousands of XP for literally no value in return.

>>44752899
To see what you're doing, for starters. Also warmth and comfort.

>>44752985
That sounds like elf-talk to me.

>>44752899
To keep soldiers warm, and to give them something to do in between the end of the day's march and the evening trumpets.

Also to give your enemy false information, in case there is a rogue with binoculars sitting on a nearby hill and thinking he's smart for counting the fires.

>>44753008
I think you're underestimating just how dark it gets in a nightly forest.

>>44753008
It is. Come back to bed, honey.

I can't believe how much of a shit storm me saying level 1 combat is too swingy started. Holy shit. Even if there's only a small chance of it happening it's stupid as fuck that low level and high level are both rocket tag while mid level isn't. And everyone talking about level 1s scouting with binoculars and shit? What the fuck? Who actually plays D&D like that at level 1? Does your group actually pool together their starting gold to buy a single fucking spyglass instead of buying shit like rope, weapons and supplies?

>>44752868
Heat. Nights can be fucking cold you know. Also to keep predators away.

>>44753041
>Not having darkvision

>>44753070
There's this one retard who thinks he's being the Michael Westen of D&D when his DM seems to be handling him and his party with kids' gloves, there are a few of us other retards arguing with him, and the rest is probably trolls. Everything smart that could be said had been said hours ago.

>>44752639
This shit is so fucking stupid. The reason level 1 sucks is because even though it's very rarely likely to happen you can have a single fucking Orc charge into Wizard and one shot his ass dead with a crit if he wins initiative. You don't have to be out numbered, you just have to have quite a few rolls go badly.

I'm not arguing this will happen a lot, in arguing that when it does happen the punishment for it is so severe for something completely out of their control that the situations shouldn't even exist.

Imagine that there was a system where after you made your character and came up with a backstory and how you were going to roll play him you had to fill a d100 and if you rolled a 1 then fuck you make a new character. Everyone would say its ducking stupid and that's the situation with level 1 Wizards.

It encourages stupidly optimized builds too. I would never run a level 1 Wizard without improved init and Color Spray because I enjoy spending a lot of time making a backstory and I don't want it to be fucking ruined by a couple 20s being rolled by a shitty fucking Orc. If I start at level 3 and I'm in a low op group I might choose something else for my level 1 feat and I wouldn't instantly kit myself with all save and still lose spells because seriously, fuck that noise.

>>44753097
In 3.5, Darkvision only works out to a certain range, after which you're blind. A campfire provides light and thereby vision in an area larger than orcs (darkvision 60 ft) can otherwise see.

>>44753251
>no random chance of my PC being harmed!!

Maybe try fanfic forums?

>>44753140
I really hope it's all trolls.

>>44753251
To be Fair: An orc is going to be a great wake up call for a green lvl 1 party if the DM plays the encounter right and have the orc only maim and not kill any of the players.

It will solidify the fact that there is a reason that not many adventurers in the world and the few that do are really special.

>>44753277
If you want to play a game where you don't even name your wizard until level 5, then play 2nd.

>anons think random deaths because bad dice rolls or bad encounter design is 'fun' and 'the proper way'

>anons don't understand the joy of slowly torturing a player character, never quite killing them, but making them suffer just enough that the player feels overwhelming dread and tension

>anons too dumb to understand that random death just results in a player sitting at the table looking really bored until the next session when they roll up another character

>anons too dumb to realize it disengages players when you remove them entirely from the equation

>anons don't know how to GM

and of course

>implying anons have actually played D&D or other RPGs to any noteworthy degree, but will lie about it regardless

>>44753251
>you just have to have quite a few rolls go badly.

*quite* badly. As proven, however, it is statistically unlikely.

Even if we assume a typical orc (+4 attack, crit 18-20 (or 15%)) against human wizard (AC 15, as outlined above, so the orc needs to roll an 11 or better to hit, or 50%), he's still only scoring a critical hit about 7.5% of the time (.15 times .5).

>for something completely out of their control

Bullshit. The wizard could move. The wizard could be behind the fighter or the cleric. The wizard could be hiding, or behind a silent image. The wizard could have a summoned monster in the way. The wizard could have put the orc to sleep with a sleep spell. The wizard could have done a million things to protect his hide.

It is not the DM's job to keep the player characters alive, it's the player character's.

>Imagine that there was a system where after you made your character and came up with a backstory and how you were going to roll play him you had to fill a d100 and if you rolled a 1 then fuck you make a new character.

I think that system is called "Traveler", actually. And it's fun.

>>44753305
That's cool and all until the Orc rolls a 20, confirms it, and then rolls 2 4s on the Wizard with 5 starting health who played D&D for the first time. Then you have the option of fudging the rolls, which I'm sure is a great message to send to new players about how real the danger in the game is, or they make a new character while everyone gets to still play.

>>44753275
A campfire, especially in a forest, is not going to provide a very large radius of usable light. What it will do is be very visible and, at least for those of us without darkvision, completely ruin our night vision for a good while if we work near it. 60 ft from the fire in a forest you're not going to find it much use, let alone sitting next to it and trying to look at something 60 ft away.

>>44753390
Read
>>44753350

>>44753390
If I'm a DM with a green D&D player in front of me, the first thing I'm going to say when he hands me his 1st-level character sheet is "okay, and where's the backup character?"

I'm not gonna let a player fly in blind.

>>44753321
OK faggot.

>>44753350
Fucking thank you. When a Pc dies at first level there's no feeling of drama or anything like that. It's just a super shitty annoyance that makes it where you can't play for awhile.

>>44753382
>Bullshit. The wizard could move. The wizard could be behind the fighter or the cleric. The wizard could be hiding, or behind a silent image. The wizard could have a summoned monster in the way. The wizard could have put the orc to sleep with a sleep spell. The wizard could have done a million things to protect his hide.

Any of those needs him to win the initiative.

>>44753399
Well, there's still warmth and cooking. And the question of why a 1st-level party is encountering more than 2 orcs at a time.

>>44753382
Yes, if wins init he can win the fight, because level 1 Wizards have fucking Color Spray. I'm curious what ability a Wizard has to tell the DM that he casts sleep during the Orcs turn though, seeing as the Orc specifically won the fuckin init roll.

>>44753445
>Any of those needs him to win the initiative.

No, being behind the cleric or fighter simply requires proper fucking marching order. The wizard is squishy, to make up for the raw power he brings to the table. He should never be exposed to surprise melee attacks unless the party is just absolutely terrible.

The orcs have a ranged weapon, a javelin, but both their critical chance and their chance of rolling enough to instantly kill a 1st-level wizard is vanishingly small with those.

>>44753390
>>44753445
>An orc suddenly appears next to your level 1 group, bum rushes the Wizardwhich from the looks of it was you and then crit-oneshots him

Did the orc also say "Psssh...nothing personnel....nerd" ?

Also, in case your aren't just trolling, your DM wanted you dead if that really happened.

>>44753515
>No, being behind the cleric or fighter simply requires proper fucking marching order.

No, it requires them to know the exact direction where the orc is coming from. Which you can only guarantee if you're playing a completely linear dungeon crawl.

>>44753390
>>44753445
>>44753512
>>44753549
Holy hell anon, you sound like you have PTSD or something from orks, just calm down.

>>44753445
>Not having a surprise round
You ARE a shit player.

>>44753390
See, that's why you have already told the newcomer to expect this. Like any normally functioning person would have.

>>44753620
>always having surprise round

I'm sorry you have a terrible GM, anon.

>>44753549
>Orcs are completely undetectable until they attack.
Yes, no fucking way you could see or hear them approaching.

>>44753658
>not having a surprise round against ORCS

Were the orcs that assaulted you also painted purple?

>>44753658
My GM is terrible because we are actually sneaking and moving cautiously through enemy territory? Those should raise your chances of having a surprise round to acceptable levels.

Talked to an old buddy of mine, forget which game it was. Pretty sure it was Everquest but RA Salvatore apparently sucks dick at playing mmos, at least team oriented raids.

>>44753769
'k anon

>>44753758

Your GM is terrible because he soft-balled enough that level 1s sneaking around have even 50/50 odds of getting a surprise round.

>>44753803
Seriously, what exactly is your point? Can you even sum up what exactly you are arguing about?

>>44753803
Assuming no more than half of your party is a clanking in heavy armor, you have way more than 50/50 chances of beating an orc's passive perception.

File: SAO Kirito.png (733KB, 769x960px) Image search: [Google]

733KB, 769x960px

>>44753769
>RA Salvatore apparently sucks dick at playing mmos, at least team oriented raids.
What a coincidence

>>44753549
So, Spot/Listen checks.

Gotcha.

For all the faults of RAW 3.PF, you just seem bad at the game or have a bad DM who didn't read the book

>>44753941
-1 per 10 feet, assuming you even have a line of sight.

>>44746787

Are you implying that Drizzt needs /more/ power? I mean, level 16 already means he's basically as strong as a dragon, and that's if he's acting like a moron and doing nothing but swinging his weapon.

>>44747643

>Hasn't seen the powercreep that started with ADOM and Nethack and has slowly gotten worse and worse over the years
>Hasn't seen the logical conclusion of this in games like Elona+ where level 127 things are considered /average/ and ants are stronger than liches due to level scaling, with human guards being as strong as dragons, to speak nothing of Warcraft

>>44753871
I think his point is that you're not talking out of your ass, you're launching ICBMs at Russia. You constantly take a perfectly ideal situation - passive level-appropriate enemy, no information hidden beyond the reach of low-level characters taking 10, no series of bad rolls, complete sandbox freedom with regards to time and other pressures - and trying to extrapolate general arguments from there. And you've been repeating the same irrelevant extrapolations over and over again, just adding more insults.

>>44754733
Wow, you sure showed me that I'm wrong with all that passive aggressiveness.

>>44754935
He's right though, it was shown how an Orc can straight up knock someone to -10 in one hit, but it was the Wizard's fault for not doing anything. But then it was brought up that Orcs get an initiative roll that they can win, but it's the parties fault that they didn't get a surprise round. More and more you guys are making a level 1 party sound like a group of Navy Seals.

The only reason not to start at level 3 is that it's easier for people new to the game to make level 1 characters. But you guys are making it sound like you need to play super fucking cautious and defensively at level 1. New players won't have the system mastery to do so and veterans should have no issue making a third level character. It's dumb. It doesn't even help you learn how to play because around level 3 there's only certain shit that can kill you on the charge and you're in a much better position to have the tools to face it.

You probably think that Giant Crabs have an appropriate CR too.

>>44750635
I would only play a campaign if I start at level 1

>>44748623
>>I start with a +3 bow of slaying, its a family thing
This is the most mysterious thing in all of gaming to me.
Who the FUCK has ever ONCE let a player get away with shit like that? Why would some fatbeard ever think he could get away with it, ever?

>>44756654
Same.
Gonna be anything other than a one-shot? Give me level 1.
Long campaign? Start me ad a lv 0 with a pocket knife.

Starting at higher levels, isn't bad. It just means that you love the taste of cock.