>It's am 'X Primarch is autistic/retarded/muh waifu' thread
It's pretty fucking retarded. Nothing can change that but holy shit nuggets does it have a lot of competition.
>but the whole way the emperor handled Magnus was fucking dumb
you mean by telling him to stop fucking around with the warp or he would destroy him and his legion and erase them from history? seems like the emperor was pretty straightfoward and clear, Magnus was the fuck up
Well, define "retarded".
Yes, the Decimation was a very, very bad decision. Perturabo did it because he was mad, though, not because he was mentally sub-normal. He was insanely obsessive about his own sense of inadequacy, which is what led him to make such awful, awful decisions as the Decimation (also siding with the Traitors, who were, looked at in totality, a shitshow of freaks, madmen and broken things).
Perturabo the Decimator put him in a teleportarium. Take him up the highest high. Take him up to the top where the mountians stop. Let him tell his book of lies.
Perturabo the Decimator he's a smooth operator. It's time we cut him down to size. Take him by the hand, and put him on the stand, let us hear his alibis.
By claiming the Emperor as his holy right, he's stealing a god from the eldar, stealing a god from chaos too. There is only one god through and through.
Eight lies, multiplied by eight, multiplied by eight again, eight primarchs with eight bolters, send them home on the mourning train.
Well who's that shouting? Perturabo the Decimator, all he ever gives us is pain. Well who's that shouting? Perturabo the Decimator, he should bow his head in shame.
By and by, by and by, by and by, by and by.
Dorn cries with laughter at just how god awful Pert is.
They weren't doing fine. They were massively lagging behind the other Legions.
But its still not the stupidest thing in the HH.
>Hey Space Pope, I'm banning all religion because........ I don't know I forgot.
But I'm the pope.
>I don't care. Just toe the line.
>Also here, have a Legion of super soldiers.
*200 years of no explanations and antagonization later*
>Oh noes! Logar is tuned against me! I don't understand how this happened!
Or what about
>Just left all your friends to brutally die alone and believing you abandoned them
>Also you have Nails in your had fucking your brain up and making you a homicidal nut job. I'm not going to spend any real time or effort trying to remove them.
>Here have a Legion of super soldiers
Or what about
>Oh hai! You're a demented nut job who cuts people up in his spare time and hangs their bits and pieces from lamp posts.
>You're obviously so far round the bend that you can't see sanity with the hubble space telescope.
>Have a legion of Super Soldiers.
I think, as written in the Horus Heresy series, all the Emperor's moments of derp come down to a single mental blind spot. It's a biggy, but it's a single mental malfunction;
He views the Primarchs as extensions of his will and never considers the possiblity they might disobey. When they do disobey, he thinks punishment and humiliation without explanation is the way to get them back on track.
I don't have an explanation for why he thinks these things. My best guess is he is operating under a misunderstanding on the nature of the Primarchs; maybe the borrowed Chaos power gave them a free will he never anticipated. But he treats them like tools and is repeatedly astonished/furious when they act like people.
Yes. There is a short story about traitor IWs assaulting a loyalist IW fortresss. The commander of that fortress, Dantioch, also features in Unremembered Empire.
The fact that IWs were used as a garrison force meant it was more piecemeal and extended than other loyalist purges, but they had loyalists and they did indeed purge them.
But they were only lagging behind due to getting all the shitty planets to assault, with large fortresses and fortifications that took a long time to besiege.
Something they continued to do even after Pert took charge.
Oh I forgot one.
>Oh hi, primitive nut job obviously mutated illiterate knuckle dragger.
>I know that until this morning you thought that the world was flat.
>I know that my Best Korea relies on psykers and you are superstitiously terrified of them
>I know that I demand total atheism in my subjects and your dudes have a shit tonne of Old God stuff going on
>Here have a well disciplined and trained Legion to devolve into your boat hopping alcoholic bros.
Because Mortarion has little written about him.
Russ, before HH, was seen as a hard punching, hard drinking but ultimately friendly badass who always had your back. Not the sharpest tool in the shed and he knew it but his heart was in the right place.
HH rolls around and he turns into a drooling idiot team-killer.
It's the ruining of a good character in the name of a M. Night Shyamalan WHAT A TWEEST it turns out it was shit.
>Russ, before HH, was seen as a hard punching, hard drinking but ultimately friendly badass who always had your back
that's how he seemed in Prospero Burns, what HH books make him out to be a "drooling idiot team killer"?
Fuck off and die OP, you're walking, breathing cancer.
Also Perturabo wasn't autistic, he was a stark raving madman
Psyker Tyrant Xenos, even.
He sided with Horus, because Horus wasn't a dick to him. He didn't know about the chaos thing, and that fall is entirely down to Typhon, who's an Erebus-tier asshole.
I like how everyone forgets the biggest single cause for the decimation, the utterly huge fuckup at Incladon caused by the IW's stubbornness BEFORE Pert arrived (their last major engagement without him, even) that got something like 29000 IW killed, including the majority of their veterans and command.
The worst part is that it's literally a page before, and the last bits of the description are on the same page as the line "His punishment was decimation" - Pages 106-110 of HH3 (skipping 108-9 which are a big red box) have Incladon and the decimation, if you want to check
Given that the bulk of the legion when he met numbered 35000 (with another ~17500 scattered about) this means that he had 3500 killed, compared to 29000 caused by their refusal to withdraw.
It was a stupid thing to do, but it's hardly as unwarranted or catastrophic as it's usually shown
a better thing to do would have been to change the combat doctrine of the legion to make sure that no Incladon type shit storm could ever happen again, but Pert did nothing and kept the same fucked up tactics
We don't know anything about the SW before Russ showed up. And besides is that honestly worse than Perturabo getting pissed about his legion failing to live up to it's potential, killing 1/10 of that legion and then doing nothing to fix what the underlaying problem was?
Do you not know what an ambulance chaser is or did you not realize that Carson is a doctor?
Although he continued to perform such practices like in the little red sidebox in one of the books (not got it to hand) where it lists some engagements and their casualties there's one that is along the lines of:
-victory, compliance achieved
-Punishment applied for lack of zeal
So in his own general autism he continues to think killing his own kids will somehow make the other ones better.
Well it's a case of
>Everyone stay the same
>Everyone get stupid
Until someone remarks otherwise I'm going to assume that they were unremarkable until Russ yiffed onto the stage.
Then he let his illiterate, superstitious, alcoholic, tribal friends into the Legion presumably by not having them go through the usual screening process the Terran Marines had to go through.
I'm trying to imagine the old Terran Marine commanders expression whilst all this is happening. Sadly that expression is framed by rope.
Butt mad Space Wolf wolfing wolf wolfy wolf wolf detected.
Go wolf your wolf in howl wolfing wulver wulfen.
Your more wolf than the blood angels are blood. And they're vampire marines. What the fuck happened to the Vikings in SPAAAAAAAAACE! we all used to know and like more?
For me? The sheer short-sighted hypocracy of "No psykers! There is no safe way to use the Warp! What, my Rune Priests? No! They are different!"
Mortarion and Fulgrim may have been anti-psyker, but they didn't advocate the banning of Librarians while claiming that their psykers somehow don't count.
You'll have to find new ones.
Say, a Primarch that did nothing wrong
There's no indication that the Wolves were ever very disciplined (not that it matters all that much, given Russ was found very early), they're listed with the other Wolves and the Night Lords as being one of the more fractious and unruly legions
They did have a pretty great combat record though
He refined the tactics the Legion (and himself) was most suited for, greatly improved their capacity for them, and added skill with armoured warfare. They were never going to be the Emperor's Children or the Scars, so perfecting their aptitude was at least somewhat reasonable
Incladon was a failure in stubbornness that was not repeated - they still suffered huge casualties, but never again in such a catastrophic, inefficient, and stupid manner.
The only cost was breaking the entire legion psychologically.
It also didn't help that there was a vicious circle for them with sieges, and Horus only added to it by throwing them again and again into grinding campagins
>does it have a lot of competition
Well, according to Thousand Sons (the novel), Magnus and his boys were using and consulting with Literally Demons, with the arguments of
>Oh but there are totes nice and kind creatures residing in the Warp
>Being manipulated? By Daemonic creatures that provide us with all our "wisdom" about the nature of the world, are the foundation of our combat doctrine and the mean by which our Primarch is aiming to deal with high mutation rates? Oh please we're OBVIOUSLY far too clever for that to happen!
The entire Magnus' arc is Hubris 101: You think you can fly up to touch the Sun and walk on water - you gonna end up burned and wet.
I think the Space Wolves only have a reputation as being undisciplined because they use their newest members as their assault troops, while the vets form tactical and heavy squads. Of course new marines aren't as disciplned as veterans. Russ and his Jarl's maybe brutish but they seem to be very astute about fighting. They might fight similar to the World Eaters but they at least seem to have more tactics than "CHARGE"!
It fucking worked, the Iron Warriors were efficient as fuck when it came to their gimmick because of the shock to the the legion forcing them to adapt that decimation caused. It got the fucking point across.
People seem to conveniently forget that part.
Perty: I've dug a moat around my house so deep and wide I bet you couldn't get across it even if you filled it with the corpses of your whole Legion
Dorn: I bet I could. In fact I'm totally going to do that and make you look really stupid when I succeed at it and knock that smirk off your face.
So Dorn fills the ditch with the corpses of his Legion and gets to the house.
Perty isn't in the house. Also the house is a bomb.
Yeah, Dorn sure showed Perty by slaughtering his own Legion like that.
You also seem to forget the point that despite having the highest number of casualties of any legion, they still couldn't top the ultramarines/sons of horus etc for compliant worlds.
Before you start with "they had more men", thats because Rob didn't systematically friendly fire them.
Before you start with "differences in tactics", Pert hated the type of warfare he waged ao why not just fucking change it.
Fucking around with the warp and fucking around with demons are two totally different things, how many times must I tell you this Magnus? Why don't you do something useful and help figure out why the fuck a street sign isn't a street name sign but a street name sign is a street sign?
Grey Knight ALWAYS know that Warp is the domain to the Ruinous Powers, that this power is one of the forever damned, and that to listen to even one word coming out of Daemon's mouth is to lay way for millennia of heresy.
Meanwhile Magnus was going full bro with Tzeentch, while his marines found close friends and companions in their familiars, to the point of allowing them into their bodies. That. Is. Sick.
Pert isn't retarded, he was ruthless and insanely callous but not retarded. Perty boy become one of the most feared and powerful warlords under his father, he conquered the world for him, he even thrived in a court that sought to kill both him and his father every day.
A retarded primarch would have died on Olympus.
Don't argue with me Magnus, you know how that went for you last time. The Grey Knights are trained to handle that, you and your legion weren't. In fact, if you weren't such a fuck up the grey knights probably wouldn't even need to be a thing.
>Grew up in urban nightmare (Nostromo/Pittsburgh)
Only good joke in the picture.
Seriously, you can think it stupid as fuck but it got shit done in ways few other legions accomplished.
>>Legion associated with constantly doing the dirty work no other legion would but never the less having other legions constantly steal the credit in the end
>> Pert being ORDERED to do the dirty work preventing him from changing tactics
>>Somehow making compliant worlds a factor of worth for a legion like the Iron Warriors
Do you even read the lore? How many Ultramarine worlds were conquered with Iron Warriors in the trenches? That's the fucking point of alot of the Iron Warriors issues.
This as well.
"My sons are literally chopping their limbs off and going the exact opposite ideology of myself in a way that is harmful... but I dont want to trigger anyone so I will wait until after its all over"
Ferrus was a shrill who got ganked in the beginning
Nah, this was a bit in the Death Guard piece - "rivalries and internal strife were observed by outsiders to be few, particularly in comparison to notably fractious Legions such as the Night Lords and the Space Wolves. When an officer died in battle his successor stepped into his place swiftly and decisively without need for orders or discussion"
I think they might have had a similar thing to the Iron Hands, where they competed to be the best - given this is marines that could lead to some outstanding results, but I could also see problems cropping up a lot as well - at least Russ seems like he was well liked enough to keep his sons in line
Grey Knights are indoctrinated to the point of spitting mind bleach instead of acidic saliva, and all their actions are initiated and supervised by Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, which means that their loyalties are adamant and all ultimately are to the Golden Throne. While TS were only loyal to Magnus because of "Ugh uneducated savages of a family" and "Muh sophistication". And Magnus himself was only loyal to his own overblown ego, which is ULTRA-OBVIOUSLY demonstrated by the whole fucking up the Webway project ordeal.
This is as stupid as Gulliman telling Alpharious that he would never catch up because he was found 80 years after him.
Gosh Ultrafags are awful.
Reminder that at the end of the Heresy the Ultamarines and Sons of Horus were no where near as fast of efficient as the Word Bearers when they decided to stop wasting their time praying.
Punishment isn't always death anon, and he at least got results from his negative reinforcement
Ignoring both the jobs he had to do, and all the support work where the Iron Warriors just get labelled "nameless comrades-in-arms"
Not that Pert's policies of collective shame/honour were much good either
>ultramarines are superior in just about every conceivable way
> Not as efficient as the Word Bearers
>Get their shit kicked in on their own turf, with their entire home field advantage against the word bearers and world eaters, the two "stupid" legions.
>Not fighting at holy terra like the real loyalists
Read a dictionary Anon, that is not how you spell incompetent
>"AHHHHH! SAVE ME LEMAN!!!"
>and Sons of Horus
They were good, very good, but for a lot of their early and mid crusade victories they had good portions of other legions under their command as well, but the victories were often credited solely to the SoH/LW.
Sometimes this was asked for by the other Legions (in part because it meant they'd have Horus leading them), who valued the lessons they could learn and the glory of fighting with the premier legion, but other times it was only under orders from above - in the case of the Raven Guard, for example
> Pert being ORDERED to do the dirty work preventing him from changing tactics
Boo-fucking-hoo. If Perturabo didn't want his legion used for sieges, he should have tried to make them suited for anything else instead of turning them into the ultimate blunt instrument. Because god forbid that a sledgehammer ever be used to pound in stakes. Everything bad that happened to Perturabo or his Corpse Grinders was the direct consequence of his decisions.
>Ordered by a superior officer
>Ignoring it because you think you know better
What kind of faggot has such little idea of how chain of command works and THEN proceeds to samefag a compliment (>>44748306) To themselves
Don't mind me. Just the best Primarch coming through.
Oh, I'm sorry, it was Horus and the Emperor who ordered the decimation and decided the best way to figure out the enemy's firing zones was to compare how his men's bodies were piled, before using those bodies to make a ramp over the enemy's walls? I didn't know that, my mistake. You're right, Pert dindu nuffin, Pert a good boy.
Objectively the greatest primarch.
>mfw someone said Roboute was the best primarch near me
Corax was a bitch though - crying about how his legionaries had oppressed people, sending senior captains away for just doing their job.
Though his predilection for sneakyness vs Pert's meat grinder mentality did lead to the odd situation of - in a battle force of the IW, RG, SW and SoH, when Horus was affirming his place as Warmaster - Russ being the peacemaker between Pert and Corax.
The Iron Warriors were assigned to be the siege legion by the war council and Horus, Pert may have not liked it, but he followed damn orders and made them better then any other legion, accomplishing what other legions couldn't in those fields. He didn't cry or objectively disobey like a retard, he did his damn job, a feat that is rare among the primarchs.
Yeah, Decimation worked just fine in improved the legion. But we were discussing chain of command faggot, not how to decimate. And the Iron Warriors were NOT the "pile of corpses" legion, thats dorn and Angron's boys. IWs were the ones that actually got shit done by being , you know...siege experts.
Read the lore asswipe, your embarrassing yourself. Go back to using your Gulliman figure as a butt plug.
By being the lapbitch to everyone and everything?
Yeah Horus did that, but the Emperor decreed at Nikea that he would destroy Magnus and his legion and remove all their deeds and even their name from Imperial history if he didn't stop.
Its pretty simple in a way. Emps has lost touch with humanity.
He created the Primarchs to be tools. He treated them as such. He doesn't understand why they would think themselves otherwise.
Part of this may be down to him largely viewing himself as a tool for the furtherance of humanity as well.
In his fight for humanity, he lost touch with it.
>the "pile of corpses" legion, thats dorn
No, ol' "Iron Cage" wasn't raging for most of the Crusade, and he was noted as being less pragmatic than Peturabo, who was behind only Angron when it came to proportional losses (top 3 are Angron, Pert and Mort), though he had the logistical skills and legion gene-seed that the casualties rarely mattered too much - he saw his legion as a whole thing, and the individuals were less important.
Still, he got the job done, his methods were just more brutal than the Fists'
I don't think he had any intention of making the fire rise, but Russ had a lotta loyalty for an unhired son which made him get caught in Horus' master plan. Unfortunately Prospero wasn't the time for fear, that came later at Istvaan
Oh, he cried alright. "You don't know my dreams." Except his foster father asked, and Pert ignored him. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions showed everyone what and how he dreamed pretty damned clearly.
Making "war is math" and "flinch from no means" your doctrine of choice does make you the obviois choice for the bloodiest and most unpleasant battles.
And yes, they were the "pile of corpses" legion (Angron tended to strew them around), though I will admit that I should have clarified that most of the corpses were the Auxilla under his command. So yes, I allowed the aesthetics of my statement to obscure the truth, and that is poor debate form. But it doesn't make the statement untrue. Hiding the enemies' ammunition in your men's guts is bad generalship regardless of whether or not they're your standing force or levies that are filling out the formation.
What the fuck did you say about the Lion, you little servitor? Lion El'Jonson graduated top of his class in monster hunting and has been involved in numerous secret raids on his own home planet, and has over 300 confirmed team-kills. He is trained in autistic warfare and is the prime primarch-puncher in the entire Imperium of Man. Your chapter is nothing to him but another group of friendlies to team-kill, and he will wipe them out with savant-like precision the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Great Crusade. You think you can get away with saying things like that over the webway? Think again, heretic. As we speak I am contacting The Rock and your fortress-monastery is being traced right now so you better prepare for the Unforgiven, heretic. The non-codex-compliant Unforgiven that'll team-kill the pathetic little thing you call your chapter. You're fucking dead, traitor. Lion El'Jonson could be anywhere inside The Rock at anytime, and he can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with his flowing mane. Not only is he extensively trained in the use of hair-care products, but he can also slay a Great Unclean One with a single smile from his pearly white incisors. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "loyalist" heresy was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you Chaos-tainted Fallen. I will spam plasma all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, heretic.
>>Actions speak louder than words
Doing his fucking job, and doing it fucking well.
His process completely worked in practice, your basically saying "Nooooo, even though he was the best siege master in the great crusade he was really bad, Whaaaaaa!"
He had a job, sat down and figured out the best way to win and did it, understanding that the sacrifice of the individual is irrelevant to the greater victory. None of this is bad generalship, that is winning the goddamn war in the grittiest situation imaginable.
I know you are just whining but seriously Anon, move on with your life.
So he did his job and did it well. Undoubtedly. Was he proud of that? Did he feel content in being the guy who could finish the fights no one else could? Is all the crying about how unfairly he was treated out of universe? If yes, than I've allowed my hatred of his fans to color my opinion of the character, and I may even be moved to retract my statements. But if so, what the hell happened on Olympia?
Well you're making me hate him, and I play Dark Angels. Cool your jets. You can always report no sign of their ship and especially not the shocking evidence that it was secretly carrying later.
His personal opinions mattered not, only results, that is the point of being a soldier. Who the fuck cares if he was self actualized as he conquered the galaxy? That is Fulgrim or Sanguinious bullshit.
No one is saying he was unfairly treated? Your just grasping at straws to try to make points.
>>Its not my idiocy but the FANS that make me stupid.
Get a grip Anon
Actually, one of the books did give Pert a ''Nobody understands me! I could've been Someone!'' moment, which I think is what anon is referring to.
He whined about being hardly done by on his own.
But that was a simple conversation and not something that effected his duties on the frontline.
It was like Lorgar wanting to be a preacher instead of a warrior, except he didn't let it compromise his legion like it did with the Word Bearers.
He wished to build, but still did his damn job.
Oh yeah, aint no one saying it affected his ability to do his job. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a whiny fuck from time to time. He just kept his shit together when he needed to.
Sorta, yeah. I forget the particular statement but I think he went on about ''you dont know me, nobody does, nobody tried to, I had such great visions and plans'' and all that shit.
>No one is saying he was unfairly treated
They are. He did. He said as much to Fulgrim "You don't know my dreams brother. No one ever asked." Which is wrong, as I mentioned, but moreover, the discrepancy between what he claimed his dreams were and what his actions appear calculated to bring about is second only to Mortarion "my resentment over the use of psykers and warpcraft drove me to join the servants of Chaos" (doesn't really have a last name so this form doesn't work).
>It' not my idiocy but the FANS that make me stupid.
Actually, I opened by blaming the character. I then offered you the chance to convince me otherwise, that my dislike is but memery, but so far we've had:
>he had to conduct sieges, so it's not his fault that his tactics were brutal and made everyone hate him
Arguable, but did he meet his legion and start swtting doctrine before or after getting the job (incidentally very similar to the job that did not make everyone hate the Fists)?
>the Corpse Grinders aren't the pile of corpses legion
Laughable, which led directly to:
>Sometimes victory takes piles of corpses
Sometimes, but not every battle. You may need troops for the next one.
>He just needed to be good at what he did, not be happy about it
Flies in the face of everything I've seen of the character, who was more or less defined by resentment over no one respecting his contributions.
I remain unconvinced But let's keep trying, I'm having fun.
So who do you think wins the powerball?
>>It' not my idiocy but the FANS that make me stupid.
>Actually, I opened by blaming the character. I then offered you the chance to convince me otherwise, that my dislike is but memery, but so far we've had:
No, you were whining because you disliked decimation, then were told that it actually WORKED and are now whining like a child until you are forced to act like a high horse "my opinion" when it is factually wrong.
>>Sometimes victory takes piles of corpses
>Sometimes, but not every battle. You may need troops for the next one.
Which he HAD, always, because he wasnt stupid, again ignoring the relevant lore to allow you to continue to babel.
>>He just needed to be good at what he did, not be happy about it
>Flies in the face of everything I've seen of the character, who was more or less defined by resentment over no one respecting his contributions.
No, that is the definition of his character, he wanted more but still did what he needed to do. Only when Horus was to corrupt him did Horus begin manipulating his emotions and it really became a problem.
I dont care for "convincing you" as your opinions are based on notions that are not something that ever was relevant to someone in his position, or even factually correct.
You are free to believe whatever you want, no matter how off point it is.
hard to make a mistake when you do nothing of note. He did completely disregard the emperors ruling at Nikea and refused to come to the Space Wolves aid because the beat up his BFF Magnus though, those are pretty egregious things
Maybe one could be allowing warrior lodges to exist in his Legion? Or he could simply allow them to test his sons' loyalty...
Otherwise no, I can't recall any fuckups of his
>doubting Russ' loyalty
say what you will about the guy, but I don't think there was a Primarch more loyal to the Emperor himself, no one should have doubted he would stick with E money
Girlyman was busy being a traitor with Imperium Secondus, shirked out on the fighting then because he still had the largest legion because he missed out on all the fighting was able to bully the rest of the Imperium after the HH
>So was the Khan the only Primarch to NOT make a fucking stupid decision
No, he also fucked up. Deconstruction of the Flawless Heroic Demigod principle is the entire narrative point of Primarchs.
I'm speaking for what Khan thought, not what we know right now. Remember who betrayed his father? The most loyal and bright son, HORUS?
At the outbreak of the HH you could and probably should doubt everyone, and Khan was always willing to put more faith in himself than the others. And you must also account for the fact that he was in the middle of galactic nowhere, and was previously assaulted by Alpha Legion... Khan had all the reasons not to trust Russ, taking all the circumstances in.
well if Russ was being attacked by the Alpha legion and Khan was already attacked by the Alpha legion... I'm sure even Khan could put two and two together
also is captcha fucked up for anyone else? no matter what I pick the first time it says its wrong, then it reloads and it's fine
>say what you will about the guy, but I don't think there was a Primarch more loyal to the Emperor himself
The problem with loyalty to the Emperor was that unlike the rest of Imperium, they knew him personally, and yet he still remained a complete mystery for them. It's very hard to precisely place one's loyalties when you can hardly understand what are the true goals and ideals of your master, and what he actually expects of you. Horus started the Heresy hoping to preserve Emperor's VISION from what he assumed to be Big E's corrupted personality. Lorgar entered a crisis of faith that does not boil down to simple "He rejected the Emperor as a God and turned to other beings to worship". Magnus - no comment.
Just sayin' that IW, as besiegers and besiegees, compare very well against other SM Legions. Getting them out of Olympia and surrounding systems took a decade and effort from two loyalist legions (UM and IF).
It's not fair to say that IW were incompetent and meat grinding was needless if other legions were doing even worse in analogous situations.
Not sure what you're implying I was implying, so thats supposed to be a clarification.
Well yeah, you got a point here. Though if I was Khan I would still do the same. Don't engage in any battles, find out who' who right now. Captcha working fine for me anon, maybe Khan's stormseers are fucking it up for you? lol
>tfw you make a pic and people post it so much it becomes a meme
Is there any better feeling for a /tg/ fag?
>Decimation... actually WORKED
In the same was as Ferrus Manus' "ignore it until later" and Magnus' "make deal with the actual devil" approaches to their Legion's problems. Hell, Kubrik Chenkov is supposedly undefeated. That doesn't save their plans from being fundamentally awful. What it boils down to is that Perturabo saw a problem and smashed it. And it was the beginning and end of his imagination. Anything makes him unhappy? Kill it. His legion, bearers of bad news, Olympia, the Imperial Fists. No capacity to try anything else, no alternative approaches, just break things until the desired result is achieved. If told to end world hunger, he'd kill everyone who was starving, and he wouldn't even make corpsestarch out of the dead. He may have won battles, but his cost-benefit ratio was beyond fucked.
So I would say Decimation didn't work. 15 other legions got at least equivalent results without inflicting 10% casualties on their own men before even stepping onto a battlefield, and the other two were led by lunatics who thought casulties were desirable. His results were not remotely proportional to his means.
>maybe Khan's stormseers are fucking it up for you? lol
Conventional military thinking generally holds that all things being equal, the attacker needs a 3-1 advantage to ensure victory, worse against true fortresses., so remains of one Legion vs the equivalent of three on the former's home turf is theoretically pretty even. Whether or not conventional thinking can even get near 40k without spontaneously combusting is a separate issue.
'Under the command of their new Daemon Primarch, the majority of the Iron Warriors fled to the Eye of Terror and secured the Daemon World of Medrengard after the battle of the Iron Cage, from where they could brood on the turn of events and plot vengeance on the Imperium. Those Iron Warriors who had established their own empire around Olympia prepared themselves for the inevitable assault by the Loyalist Legions.'
If most of the IW was already in the Eye of Terror, less than 50% of IW could defend 'Olympia empire', probably much less. IW were known for leaving minimal garrions on multitude of planets across the galaxy, often no more than one squad of marines. We don't know how many loyal marines were involved.
As far as we know the advantage was ???-???. I think it was much more than 3-1, but that's just my guesstimation of what loyalists and traitors could throw at each other at that point.
Well, its worse against true fortresses supposedly. And a lot of WH40k tech seems to offer the advantage to established positions, unless Im misguided.
The IW being able to punch well above their weight wouldn't surprise me in that instance.
The real complication in my guess was exactly how many Ultras were involved. They screw the statisitics quite horribly just by existing. I operated on the assumption that the Ultra contigent was about twice the Fists size, which was itself likely greater than the IW that could have been left after Tallarn and Terra if they'd split their forces. Therefore, the IW would have to be dug in like ticks (probable) and be filled with the desire to make their enemies bleed (almost certain) in order to make that ratio a little less unfavorable.
Bear in mind too, they were known for skill in trench warfare.
The way I see it, Fists were Medieval style fortification, Warriors were WW1 style trench fighting. In actual combat terms, Warriors are probably tougher than average if not as skilled at long range.
Well, all things are never equal. I think it was a doctrinal thing: the IW would take the position if they had soak the ground in blood until the foundations sank in, while the Fists usually forced the enemy to come to them, then took the position when its defenders were dead around theirs. Which would match the results of their switch in the Scouring: the IW just cause a bloodbath regardless of which side of the fortifications they're on, but the IF have to reverse-engineer what works from what didn't work on them.
Yeah. IF were pretty solid at holding ground and adapted well. IW were hard cunts that fought like demons.
Probably the best way to take out a SM commander that, actually...
> the most retarded thing to tske place in the heresy.
There is so much vying for that spot though.
Like Horus asking Fulgrim to try and convince Ferrus Manus to join them
Like Kor Phaeron trying to sway Guilliman to the traitor's side
The entirety of the idea behind the Furious Abyss
Angron. Period. Even discounting the Primarch himself's actions, and just looking at how his life was handled, he was going to go insane and turn against the Imperium eventually.
Ferrus Manus charging around 3 Legions with nothing but his terminator honor guard. Granted that's a large force unto itself, but this guy is supposed to be a military genius.
And the list goes on from there for a while. I mean, there would be mistakes made in any conquest of a galaxy, but some of these are made by the most powerful minds in the Heresy.
Maybe he just wanted to increase the size of his legion. Decimation would of netted him a net increase of marines (2 geneseed per marine) not say that it's still not retarded; as it is.
Would of been more useful to have those same loses in combat by going conquer crazy.
You are so funny, this is totally not getting old.
>Horus asking Fulgrim to try and convince Ferrus Manus to join them
Ferrus Manus was a) best bros with Fulgrim and b) a bit of a dick - reading the IH bit in Massacre, he doesn't come off well at all; add to that that he was hanging about near the traitors' inner circle, he was absolutely fine with Horus's ascension to Warmaster (and was one of the few with a position to argue about it) and he'd apparently quarrelled with Dorn, he seemed like a good candidate for joining, though others (notably G-man) knew he was pretty damn loyal
Wasn't the Furious Abyss a fine ship, but just kind of misused in the name of destruction?
>Like Horus asking Fulgrim to try and convince Ferrus Manus to join them
>Ferrus Manus charging around 3 Legions with nothing but his terminator honor guard
Isn't there a connection there? IIRC, Manus realized that if Horus and Fulgrim thought they could turn him, others might doubt his loyalty as well. So, in addition to being angry over the betrayal, he's got something to prove on Istvaan, and the two influences overcome good sense, causing him to lose his head both metaphorically and literally.
>Like Horus asking Fulgrim to try and convince Ferrus Manus to join them
Nobody really understood Ferrus well, not even Fulgrim himself. Horus have seen an attempt as worth enough due to chance of Ferrus having some hidden personal reasons for betrayal. I mean, that worked well enough with Curze.
>Like Kor Phaeron trying to sway Guilliman to the traitor's side
Guy's the single most arrogant motherfucker to ever walk under the stars. He fancies himself the godfather of Heresy, and sees every betrayal of a Primarch as his own personal achievement, while in fact the entire corruption machine took ENORMOUS flaws in Primarchs' personality and four divine entities constantly greasing it's wheels to work. He thought that HE - KOR PHAERON - has already made nine Primarchs kneel before him and his gods. One more won't be that difficult, won't it?
>The entirety of the idea behind the Furious Abyss
If it wasn't for a bunch of loyalists with fucking impenetrable Plot Armour - it would have worked.
>Angron. Period. Even discounting the Primarch himself's actions, and just looking at how his life was handled, he was going to go insane and turn against the Imperium eventually.
It was only a possibility. He could just as well ease to the idea of serving mankind and find peace with his mind. Lion was originally an animalistic wildling, but that didn't prevent him from growing into a somewhat functional individual. And what was the alternative? The rest of the gang murdering their blood on some suspicion? Family was already all torn about the two missing brothers, third one would have been way too much in that context. In hindsight it's all simple, but before Heresy everyone had serious troubles comprehending the idea of Astartes fighting each other.
>Ferrus Manus charging around 3 Legions with nothing but his terminator honor guard
He was a tiniest bit TOTALLY OUT OF HIS MIND BUTTMAD about being backstabbed by his brother and only friend.
It wasn't the part where they tried to turn Ferrus to their side that bothers me, its the fact that Horus saw the transformation taking place in Fulgrim, and still throught that he could convince the primarch of the Iron Hands to join them that bothers me. I mean Fulgrim met with Horus beforehand painted like a whore, distracted by the demon whispering in his mind, but Horus was still alright with sending him to convince a Legion to join them.
>Guy's the single most arrogant motherfucker to ever walk under the stars.
I actually see the point there, a character flaw would be the most reasonable explanation
>If it wasn't for a bunch of loyalists with fucking impenetrable Plot Armour - it would have worked.
I don't think it would have. I mean, honestly a single ship and a thousand marines to kill the seat of Guilliman's empire? Sure his ship is monstrously powerful, but I doubt that ship alone and its compliment of marines could do it.
>It was only a possibility. He could just as well ease to the idea of serving mankind and find peace with his mind. Lion was originally an animalistic wildling, but that didn't prevent him from growing into a somewhat functional individual. And what was the alternative? The rest of the gang murdering their blood on some suspicion?
It wasn't suspicion of it so much as the fact that he talked about it multiple times. And I wasn't suggesting they just murder him, I just feel its so stupid not to help the guy when you have the best Gene-smiths of the entire Imperium on Luna. They could have helped Angron's problem with the Nails, which were killing him as surely as if they decided to be rid of him anyways, which is a waste.
>He was a tiniest bit TOTALLY OUT OF HIS MIND BUTTMAD about being backstabbed by his brother and only friend.
Honestly I have always had a difficult time seeing Ferrus as the emotional kinda guy that they portray him as in the books.
>but some of these are made by the most powerful minds in the Heresy
Minds "powerful" for an Astartes. They are efficient warriors, but that's as far as their transhuman superiority goes. Their human flaws are as exaggerated as their virtues compared to the mortal men, and life as god-blooded superhuman warrior-kings on an eternal has taken it's part in building their psyche: they are amazingly immature in many aspects of their behavior, since where mortal man is humiliated and educated by his life's failings, a Space Marine just punches his way through or dies, without ever learning how to cope with his failings. They never grew up because they didn't have to. They are so FACTUALLY SUPERIOR in their nature to mortals that arrogance becomes the outcome of rational analysis, and humility requires straight out denial of reality
which is why Imperial Faith has proved to be so useful for keeping them in line. They can solve hundreds of floating point equations per second, but this mind power has no use if they don't know where and how to apply it, which is decided by their beliefs and aspirations and how well they can bring those in harmony with the outside world while they were created for the opposite task - they are all naturally at odds with reality, so that they feel the need to change it. On their judge of character, morality, stability and most importantly - ability to live in peace with themselves, Astartes are pathetic compared to an average human. And a Primarch is all that brought up to a whole new level.
For all the mediocre-to-bad quality of HH novels, I at least see them as a fine work on the concept of an ubermensh. They do an admirable work of showing how would superior humans fare in the world built for normal humans and running by their principles - that is, they would not fare that well and that would be their own fault, although there's still something admirable that they can show us.
>I mean, honestly a single ship and a thousand marines to kill the seat of Guilliman's empire
Wasn't it supposed to help the Word Bearers at Calth?
>Honestly I have always had a difficult time seeing Ferrus as the emotional kinda guy that they portray him as in the books.
His unemotional nature on all the other fronts just meant that all the feelings that he had in him were focused in his relationship with Fulgrim - he was still a sane human at his core after all, with a fundamental need for socialization. Unfortunately that made the betrayal sting like a bitch, taking him to a state where he no longer was able to control his feelings.
>They could have helped Angron's problem with the Nails
No, research was done on the nails before and it became clear that removing the nails would kill him. There was no known way (short of turning him into a Deamon) to free him from the nails and keep him alive.
Well, people here on /tg/ have honestly tried to defend Dorn supposedly doing the same in the Iron Cage (no really, he and his legion weren't raped by the IW, he meant to lose half his men!)
>why do you memesters hate Leman Russ so much?
because he was stupid enough to believe that the emperor wanted him to kill Magnus. How fucking retarted do you have to be to believe that the emperor would send you to kill another one his sons? Like, seriously, how fucking stupid is that. do you see any of the other loyal primarchs following that order without hearing it from the emperor personally and not some fucking message that HORUS gives to you in passing? If you think Gulliman, Dorn, even fucking Ferrus Manus would follow that order without hearing it from the emperor's mouth, you are fucking high.
and all of this bullshit is because he believed himself the emperor's executioner, like we was the only guy that would kill primarchs and traitors. literally ANYONE ELSE can and would do the same thing. Shit, Angron tried to kill a couple people.
so yea, there is plenty reason to hate that retarded faggot
>How fucking retarted do you have to be to believe that the emperor would send you to kill another one his sons?
Because he said he would if Magnus kept researching sorcery and it's implied that the Emperor already gave him that order twice?
>following that order without hearing it from the emperor personally and not some fucking message that HORUS gives to you in passing?
Since Horus was chosen as the Warmaster, the person that has the exact same authority as the Emperor in warring situations, the person that the Emperor himself chose as first among all the primarchs, why shouldn't Russ have followed his orders?
>because he believed himself the emperor's executioner, like we was the only guy that would kill primarchs and traitors
Well, since as already said he was implied to have already destroyed two legions, I'd say he had some backing for that belief
>Because he said he would if Magnus kept researching sorcery and it's implied that the Emperor already gave him that order twice?
and that translates to "yep, go kill magnus"
>Since Horus was chosen as the Warmaster, the person that has the exact same authority as the Emperor in warring situations, the person that the Emperor himself chose as first among all the primarchs, why shouldn't Russ have followed his orders?
you think any of the other loyalist primarch would have followed it? absolutely not. he may have the authority of the emperor, but he still is NOT the emperor and no one in their right mind would have ever followed that order
>Well, since as already said he was implied to have already destroyed two legions, I'd say he had some backing for that belief
and this shit was at the emperors direct command, not some fucking letter, so it makes sense
oh, i do. russ used to be likable, but they made him full retard. at least he leaves (forever) cause he knows he fucked up (hopefully its written like that, cuase that would redeem him in my eyes). I just want him to know how fucking stupid he is and repent for it.
Didn't they write him as remorseful about the entire Prospero mess and that he never felt that he fit in on Fenris at all, so he ended up leaving because staying on Fenris didn't make him any happier?