>sorcerers and wizards get bard skills and 4+int skill points

>>44744556
>Will buffing the strongest classes be unbalanced

Yes, very. Also what the fuck do you mean trying to be Dumbledore?

>>44744582
Like "ooh I'm a wizard guys. I only take knowledge skills and during most dungeoneering I'm pretty pointless."

At this point in their career, a level 1 wizard is a dilettante who has picked up a few spells.

Oh, I also give all the fighting classes 4+int skill points. Sorry, forgot to mention that

>>44744634
> I only take knowledge skills and during most dungeoneering I'm pretty pointless."
What fucking dungeons do you fucking run? The Wizard/Psion/Int based fucker is pratically the party Pokedex for whatever monsters they run into. They're the ones identifying magic items, runes, and traps.

>>44744669
What is the downside for giving them acrobatics?

>>44744680
What's this about downsides? Acrobatics is not a wizard's job at all. You might as well be suggesting they get full BAB.

>>44744680
>old man with a beard, robe, and pointy hat cartwheeling and flipping around casting spells

>>44744716
whoops, reading comprehension fail

>>44744634
>"ooh I'm a wizard guys. I only take knowledge skills and during most dungeoneering I'm pretty pointless."
u fookin wot m8

>>44744680
Wizard shouldn't fucking even need acrobatics unless it is some class mix. Jesus Christ, they have spells for flying, moving, blinking and other shit.

Use other classes too to get through obscales.

Sorcerers, yes, 4 skill points would help. Wizards, no, they already have super high Int if they're built well.

A better solution is to combine alot of the redundant skills to open up more skill points.

>Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft can be one skill.
>Knowledge Geography and Knowledge Nature
>Knowledge Nobility and Knowledge History
>Bluff and Diplomancy (Essentially these are just speech skills, you could even throw in intimidate if you wanted)
>Climb, Acrobatics, and Swim (Just combine these all into Athletics)
>Handle Animal and Ride
>Sleight of Hand and Stealth
>Knowledge Dungeoneering and Knowledge Engineering (just combine these into Knwoledge Architechture or something)
>Knowledge Local (Remove this one entirely, the idea of having a "skill" for something that's more a matter of whether a character has lived in a community or not is just retarded).

Do this and there should be more than enough skill points to go around. While you're at it, give Fighters and a few of the other Int+2 classes a +4 skill point bonus instead of +2. A +2 bonus is pathetic for any class that doesn't need Intelligence as their casting stat.

>>44744634
Yeah, fucking wizards and their ability to identify magical item and creatures. Fucking useless in 99.9% of D&D

>>44744787
Nigga what game are you playing, because its sure not D&D.

>>44744724
Thats what I'm saying. The stats for wizards are for old men, but at level 1 they aren't old.

They get fly as a class skill, don't they?

>>44744923
They can be old at level 1.

>>44744775
Climb and acrobatics make sense merged, though swim is different enough to warrant its own skill.

Maybe just drop climb and have acrobatics cover it.

>>44744970
Wizards who start out old shouldn't take acrobatics or stealth for fluff reasons. They should take profession (farmer). The fact that wizards can be old at level one shouldn't limit their skill list.

If wizards stayed in their towers until level 15 and didn't adventure at all, I could see such a limited skill list. But these are people who are adventurers. Why shouldn't they be able to climb a tree without burning a spell

>oh hey guys I know 3 spells can I join the wizards guild

Fuck off kid I hope a goblin stabs you in the eye.

Come back when you can create shadows of spells which function as real spells

>>44745024
I just have no fucking clue how giving wizard the bard skill list makes any sense.

Perform? Stealth? Sleight of Hand? Acrobatics? Disguise? Diplomacy? Bluff? Intimidate?

How the fuck are these wizardy?

Wizard shouldn't get chrisma or most dex based skills (fly makes sense because wizards are expected to be able to fly under their own power eventually).

and 4+int? Why the fuck would you want to buff wizards? Their restricted skill list is one of the few things wizards don't already have, but fucking no. "Lets buff wizards". Fuck you.

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>>44744775
This, to be honest, because it's not a buff to wizards, it's a buff to everyone. It's also a good fix for parts of the game design that are just plain bad.

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>>44745109
Your argument boils down to "wizards do not currently have this skill list. It is therefore absurd that they have this skill list."

Wizards probably have dexterity as their second highest stat. Prestidigitation MEANS SLEIGHT OF HAND. Wizards need bluff and diplomacy once they start using planar binding. Stealth is a cool mechanic, because eventually many wizards master the ability to become unseen. In the stories, Wizards are famous storytellers, perform is not out of place, and further, song and dance are reliable spell casting techniques in many cultures which is where we get the ideas of bards anyway.

One skill I wouldn't grant because of its uniqueness is Use Magic Device.

I'll concede that 4+int is too strong. My problem is not with min makers or whatever, that WHENEVER a new player wants to play a wizard, It's hard to explain that he isn't really a wizard until he hits higher levels. He doesn't have a role to fill except "shitty crossbow guy," which sucks. If I can sit down with a new player and say "you're a journeyman wizard. For now, you're like the rogue, but you do less damage and are more fragile with a few tricks up your sleeve," for him to understand how casting works, that he's not Harry freaking Potter but he does have things he can do

Also, Kalevala is a wizard. Don't try to say he's a bard because he freaking isnt

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>>44746128
I don't think you know what Prestidigitation is supposed to be in DnD/Pathfinder.

Wizards have a spell that turns them invisible and literally gives them +20 on Stealth... at a fairly low level. They can essentially sneak better than a mid-level rogue. They can do this with MOST skills.
See, one of the main complaints with DnD/Pathfinder is that Stealthy Fighterman, Tanky Fighterman, Glass Cannon Fighterman, and Survivalist Fighterman are all seperate classes... for a wizard they're all the same class because Wizards can do pretty much everything via magic.

You wouldn't give wizards, the guys who study magic and magical things all their lives, Use Magic Device... I'm not sure what to say to this. Every single group I've ever played with outside of official events has houserule'd that wizards get UMD.

Level 1 spells can literally find solutions to encounters before they even begin, provided you have a creative player. You can also pick up wands for a few hundred gold to help alleviate the shortage of spells... or take a look at the Arcanist class, they get Arcane Exploits that run off a separate resource pool and some of them are pretty decent attacks.

>>44744724
>>44744923
>>44744970
Someone post muscle wizard.

>>44744556
>Will this be unbalanced at high levels?


You appear to be playing 3rd edition D&D, so that's true no matter what you do.

>>44746128
Vainamoinen is a wizard, sure, but he's also a god.

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>>44746525
Muscle wizard?

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>>44746415
>>he doesn't know that bards get invisibility at level 4

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One bump

>>44746128

I really think you should look into playing Ars Magica if you want powerful wizard characters.

D&D already has enough balance problems, and Wizards are the second or third strongest class in the game, depending on where you place the Cleric.

>>44746415

Wizards most emphatically should NOT get UMD. The reason? They can already use 50-70% of the magic items in the game without it. With, they can now use 100%, which means they gain easy access to Druid/Ranger, Cleric/Paladin, Bard, and all Prestige class spells via scrolls, wands, rods and staves.

>>44744775
Its what they did in 4e. I would argue despite the sperging it worked just fine.

>>44744775

Fighters also need better saves. 4+Int isn't enough of a bump, unfortunately.

>>44748919
Wizards are the most powerful 3e class, period. Codzilla depends on the DM letting them assume broken animal shapes or call favors from divine entities. If you want to reign the wizard in you have to contest RAW.

>>44749611

I concede the point.

Cleric and Druid vie for the 2nd spot. I was wracking my brain for an argument for the Cleric, but then I remembered playing a 2 person 1 DM game where I played a ridiculously broken Cleric and my friend's Wizard still dominated the game.

So yeah.

>>44748919
Wizards are the strongest class past level 7 or so, no question. I'm not centering my game around combatting min-maxers. I am starting new players out. I also use rules for restocking my dungeons, so if the characters clear a few rooms and then go rest (like they do in your game), there will be creatures from the overworld random encounter chart which have filled those empty rooms.

I want the wizard to be competent at something besides spellcasting at early levels. Is that so absurd? The cleric is more than a healbot, the rogue is more than dpr, fighters are more than fight guys

>>44748980
Bonus to reflex and evasion at level 5?

>>44746128
Kalevala is the epic/story collection, Väinämöinen is the character who does magic by singing. He is a wizard, but he isn't the kind of wizard the wizard class in 3.PF is, since in Kalevala the magic doesn't work the way it works in DnD. He is also demigod/basically god. If you would want to depict him in DnD, you would most likely use a Bard or Cleric subclass or whatever.

Also, play a less shitty edition of DnD, where the casters can do other stuff in combat than just shittily use a crossbow at low levels. And if you aren't willing to change, don't buff wizards, they are already too good.

>>44753318
People often complain that wizards supersede the rogue role by being able to cast invisibility and knock and detect traps.

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>>44746660
I assume he meant the way to MAKE a muscle wizard.
I cannot recall the specific skills or feats involved, but basically it boiled down to using a splatbook class called Cancer Mage, who has no penalties from diseases, then purposely catching a +str,-int disease. Then constantly over time the wizard gains strength forever. Add to that some feat that lets you use one stat check to apply to another's, and you can use all that infinite strength to pass int checks and spell checks.
Bam. A wizard with infinite muscle, who can cast using THE GLORIOUS POWER OF MUSCLE!

pic related.

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>>44752983
>fighters are more than fight guys

>>44753007

It's a start. In previous editions, Fighters had the best saves, bar none (except maybe the Paladin). Mettle is also probably something a Fighter should get. Being able to shrug off saving throws should be a part of their shtick. As it is though,"fixing" the Fighter entails something of scene one re-write.

>>44757072
I'd say use an OSR that doesn't rely on class abilities (yes, this includes spells) being an answer to everything.
It might just be me, but I want my players to use their goddamn head when dealing with things.
Room's filling with water?
Sure, use your Destroy Water spell to buy time, but think about what could be causing it to happen and act on it.
Honestly, I think we need more puzzle dungeons, not less.

>>44752983

If that's the case, then my advice is this:

1.) The players you're introducing to the game should all be Wizards, and they should all gain the new skill list and skill points.

2.) They won't need a Cleric because they can use UMD for wands of cure or lesser vigor.

3.) They won't need a Fighter to soak up damage since they can charm enemies, summon monsters, or just pay NPCs to do that job.

4.) They likely won't need a Rogue, since they can get cross class ranks in Open Lock and Disable Device - and those skills will become superfluous once they get find traps and knock. Even Move Silent and Hide will become extraneous with invisibility and silence.

4.) Melf's acid arrow takes care of most mechanical traps. Dispel magic takes care of the magical ones. If they absolutely need a Rogue because none of them want to take those skills/spend spell slots on finding traps and opening things, they can hire an NPC to do it (or charm them).

5.) You might like the 3.0 Diablo II book that Wizards published, since the mana potions in that softcover recover spell slots, and it would be a simple way to keep the action going in this particular game.

>so if the characters clear a few rooms and then go rest (like they do in your game)
>putting words in my mouth

That's assuming a lot. When you sit at my table and game with me, you can make judgments about my game. Until then, keep your opinions on it to yourself.

>>44757167

I 100% agree with you, and I prefer older editions and OSR to 3.x. I've long since grown tired of certain builtin assumptions that 3.x has, so I'm moving away from it. But... when it's your first edition of D&D (like it is for my current group) it's sometimes hard to step away from it.

We're working on that.