Is there any chapter that could take the DA on in a proper 1v1 chapter battle, including fleet assets outside of the Grey Knights possibly?
They are pretty much the best equipped chapter, kill other marines like no ones business (Chaos and Imperial!) and they have a giant fucking space asteroid fortress that is pretty much indestructible and fucks everything with it's rock hard dick
Also, Space Wolves suck
>Is there any chapter that could take the DA on in a proper 1v1 chapter battle
Currently - any vanilla with the access to Skyhammer Annihilation Force. And before those it were any vanilla marines with decent air and gravguns, since we had neither. We are somewhat below vanilla codex power-wise, brother. Gotta Grim Resolve through it.
Lore/Book-wise Ultras have few dozen more layers of plot armor.
In a 1v1 scenario probably not, if only because of the DA's TEQ and MEQ killing ability. Thats not to say they're the absolute best or better than another chapter just that they're the best equipped for Marine vs Marine combat.
What the fuck did you say about the Lion, you little servitor? Lion El'Jonson graduated top of his class in monster hunting and has been involved in numerous secret raids on his own home planet, and has over 300 confirmed team-kills. He is trained in autistic warfare and is the prime primarch-puncher in the entire Imperium of Man. Your chapter is nothing to him but another group of friendlies to team-kill, and he will wipe them out with savant-like precision the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Great Crusade. You think you can get away with saying things like that over the webway? Think again, heretic. As we speak I am contacting The Rock and your fortress-monastery is being traced right now so you better prepare for the Unforgiven, heretic. The non-codex-compliant Unforgiven that'll team-kill the pathetic little thing you call your chapter. You're fucking dead, traitor. Lion El'Jonson could be anywhere inside The Rock at anytime, and he can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with his flowing mane. Not only is he extensively trained in the use of hair-care products, but he can also slay a Great Unclean One with a single smile from his pearly white incisors. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "loyalist" heresy was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you Chaos-tainted Fallen. I will spam plasma all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, heretic.
But in all seriousness, almost no one even comes close.
GET YOUR FUCKING FACTS STRAIGHT, you lobotomite.
Helbrechthas 200 marines on hi ship. The whole chapter is slightly larger than chapter strength (1000).
Grey Knights couldn't beat the Dark Angels- they don't have the space assets. The Rock is on par with the Phalanx, and it's full of alien areotech and even fucking daemons they can use to MacGuffin their way out of anything.
Retconned. Black Templars only have slightly over a thousand dudes. Those previous Crusades with several thousand dudes were done just by the Chapter itself, those Crusades with a couple hundred were done by squads.
>As he neared the waiting craft, Azrael noticed the heads of some of his honour guard twitch, turning slightly to look back behind him. Usually, this sort of infraction would result in a stern rebuke at the very least, a writ of penitence at worst, but Azrael would have expected only a single battle-brother to show such indiscipline. This was a whole squad, of Deathwing Knights no less. Curious as to what had distracted such immaculately disciplined and well-drilled Space Marines, Azrael turned around to look.
>Just in time to catch a silvered fist in his face.
>The blow was controlled, not hard enough to render him unconscious or break any bones, but with enough force to knock him brusquely to his backside. In a blur his assailant was on top of him, gripping the collar of his cloak and snarling.
>‘What did you do with him, you bastard?’ Draigo yelled, spittle trailing from his lips and teeth. ‘Is he up there in those dungeons of yours, along with all those others you’ve collected down the centuries? What do you want with them? What is it that you do to them?’
>The Deathwing honour guard surrounded the pair of Supreme Grand Masters, their weapons primed and all aimed at Draigo’s head. Azrael gestured for them to lower their arms.
>‘I don’t know what you’re talking about,’ Azrael said, trying to remove the Grey Knight’s hands from upon him.
>Draigo slammed the Dark Angel against the ground again. ‘Liar! You’ve taken him. I know you have. Were you in league with Abaddon all along? Did he deliver him up to you in exchange for his escape?’
>The Deathwing’s guns rose again. This time Azrael did not order them dropped. ‘Are you accusing me of heresy, Grey Knight?’ It was as much a warning as an accusation.
Also just to remind people, when it comes to a fight, Azrael stood up against Kharn for a while. He was going to lose against him if it lasted any longer, but Azrael blew a hole through the floor.
However, Azrael did completely BTFO Typhus in a duel and nearly killed him.
>Draigo paused, fully aware of the implications of responding in the affirmative. He released his grip on Azrael and stood up. ‘You figured out who he was, and what he was, and you had to have him to yourself. Pray that I never obtain the proof as the fury of the entire Grey Knights Chapter will make what you faced here on Pythos look like a training exercise.’
>‘As I said, Draigo,’ Azrael said, hauling himself upright, ‘I have no idea what you’re talking about.’
>As his Grey Knight counterpart marched off into the distance, Lord Azrael of the Dark Angels would have given anything in the universe for the opposite to be true.
The Grey Knights would wreck the Dark Angels.
Your point anon? Draigo will 1v1 any motherfucker in 40k save Kharn the Betrayer. The point is that they don't have the space assets to take on the Dark Angels unless they cash in a lot of favors with Inquisitors. The Rock is chock full of Extermiantus weapons, and stood up to the fleet of the Death Guard.
Also unless this takes place after the Legacy of Caliban books, flawless teleportation is possible thanks to a daemon onboard.
Alright you inbred space-wolf savage, sit down and do your best to read.
The Dark Angels are not the Mantis Warriors or the Knights of Dorn or some "literally who": the chapter.
They are the first legion, and as a founding chapter already one of the top powers in the Imperium. The chapter alone is made even more powerful by the fact that they are a.) significantly larger than Codex-compliant thanks to their larger 1st and 2nd companies and b.) their expertise through the Ravenwing and Deathwing in fighting marines. Furthermore, The Rock is nigh-impregnable vessel even greater than a standard battle-barge, which contains the last Primarch in the Imperium aboard it just waiting for the Dark Angels to need him.
Arguably most importantly, the Dark Angels form, with the Unforgiven, the last legion in the Imperium. They all answer to Supreme Grand Master Azrael, and they are all battle-brothers of the Unforgiven.
Take individually (which is unrealistic because if any major threat was posed to them they would unite the Unforgiven) the Dark Angels chapter alone is one of the most powerful in the Imperium, above average numbers, above average fleet strength, and above average marine capability in the 1st and 2nd companies.
Taken as the Unforgiven, they are the single most powerful force in the Imperium.
Go home, Logan, nobody likes furries.
No they wouldn't, you're basing that entire argument on "muh HQ is better than your HQ", when HQ means shit in a Chapter engagement. What matters is space assets. How many star forts and Battle Barges do the Grey Knights even have?
The Grey Knights know about the Fallen aboard the Rock and many of the Dark Angels secrets. It would be easy for them to get support to wipe out the Dark Angels, if they were inclined.
Checking the Wiki, the Grey Knights actually get completely destroyed. On top of the Rock, which of itself is on part with the Phalanx and full of exterminatus munitions- but the Dark Angels have eight Battle Barges and Sixteen Strike Cruisers. The Grey Knights only have four Battle Barges and eight or so Strike Cruisers. They're completely outgunned and would get shredded.
>it would be easy for a smaller chapter to wipe out the last Legion (legion, motherfucker) left in the Empire.
I'm hoping this is bait. The Grey Knights are experts in killing demons... the Dark Angels are experts in killing other marines...
The OP is only Chapter vs Chapter. No outside assets. Not to mention we don't know if they could call in the entire Ordo Malleus, or how that would stack up to a likewise fully assembled space marine Legion.
They BTFO the Death Guard Legion in the Legacy of Caliban books.
Also not to mention, it was the Dark Angels who did the bulk of the fighting on Pandorax, not the Grey Knights. Not to mention there was also the Night Lords Legion during the Horus Heresy, which got more than decimated in the opening engagement. The Dark Angels also led the largest push against the Traitor Legions post-heresy.
Tell me, how many millenia have the Grey Knights spend hunting CSM?
Tell me, how many marines do the Grey Knights have?
Does it compare to the 150,000 of the Unforgiven?
Source: Deathwatch tells us 15% of chapters are DA successors.
Jesus fuck how are there even Fallen left?
The entire Unforgiven would be backing the Dark Angels.
That's over legion strength in Space Marines alone...
And realistically the Grey Knights would get the Ordo Malleus guaranteed and that's it- there's massive infighting and politics within the Inquisition, whereas the Unforgiven are united as battle-brothers.
If the Grey Knights wanted they could just give the Information to one of the higher ups in the Inquisition who would call in an entire strike fleet+as many chapters as they need and exterminatus the Rock.
That said, they probably already have and the Inquisition is simply allowing the Unforgiven to exist. The existence of something so heretical is bound to raise some tempers.
I think its because many of them have a.) hardly poked their heads out of the Eye of Terror or b.) didn't even wake up from their warp-induced comas for many thousands of years.
Other than that... there need to be some left because they were all gone GW would have to innovate.
Also they might be able to get other Chapters to join them. The Space Wolves and Dark Angels have their brotherly spats, but in the end they're bros, especially over their mutual distrust of the Inquisition.
Most chapters aren't exactly going to be leap out of their armour in excitement of taking on the largest and one of the most prestigious groups of marines in the Imperium because the fucking Inquisition of all people said so.
>Is there any chapter that could take the DA on in a proper 1v1 chapter battle, including fleet assets outside of the Grey Knights possibly?
>Debate about Grey Knights and successor chapters.
The issue is that the Grey Knights can't actually without any backup. Their fleet is fucking pitiful compared even to normal Chapters that don't have fuckhuge fleets like the Angels or Wolves.
You'd be surprised.
I think even the Space Wolves would turn over that much Heresy. Hiding that much from the Inquisition? From the Emperor? That's unacceptable. More than unacceptable, it's fucking unbelievable.
You'd get all successors of the Ultramarines, the Imp Fists, the Iron Hands, the Blood Angels, and plenty of miscellaneous successors. The Minotaurs and the Pentarchy of Blood both spring to mind.
Not to mention the regular armies of the Inquisition and the Imperial Guard.
Though, again, they probably haven't come to blows because the Inquisition and the High Lords allow them to exist.
>listening to 3rd party numbers
>ignoring that the codex says DA are continually passed up when new chapters are formed, because high lords suspect them of legion building
The only heretics in this thread are those who would put the Inquisition's agenda before the Emperor's will.
Repent, for tomorrow you die.
Minotaurs would wreck those Heretics.
In an actual 1v1 chapter scale? Of course.
In the bullshit legion battle are throwing around like the Dark Angels ever actually deploy that way? Maybe. If someone beat up the High Lord's dogs there would be fucking hell to pay.
The point is that the OP is wrong, the Grey Knights couldn't.
>Hiding that much from the Inquisition?
Wolves don't give a flying fuck about the Inquisition and see them as the biggest cunts in the galaxy. Even the Dark Angels don't kill as many civilians as they do, and even then I think the DA have only wiped out one or two planets. If they cover shit up, they just kill the guys on top like the generals or officers.
>From the Emperor?
Wat. They don't hide anything from the Emperor, he's completely aware of what the Dark Angels do. He even chats with Dark Angel Dreadnoughts because he's so chill for motivation speeches. A Deathwing Terminator gets depressed after getting demolished by a Nurgle infection, but the Emperor comes to him and coaches him out of his depression.
As for the Fallen, literally everybody besides the Grey Knights have people turn to Chaos. The only thing that would be a no-no is the fact that Azrael keeps Luther alive, as has every previous Supreme Grand Master, but not even the Grey Knights know about that. They just know about the Fallen in a general sense.
>You'd get all successors of the Ultramarines, the Imp Fists, the Iron Hands, the Blood Angels, and plenty of miscellaneous successors.
No they wouldn't. The First Founding Chapters would declare war on the Inquisition before they declared war on their own, especially a First Founding Chapter. NOBODY likes the Inquisition. Hatred of them is almost universal.
Space Wolves hate the inquisition, they wouldn't fight on their behalf.
Blood Angels bonded with Dark Angels over their fighting in the Cadian sector after the HH- both legions had lost their Primarchs and much of their sense of purpose.
Ultimately if the Dark Angels were excommunicated the resulting fallout and civil war would probably be the biggest internal conflict since the Horus Heresy.
And again, they don't have the fucking space assets either. The Dark Angels have a stupid big fleet of Eight battle Barges and Sixteen Strike Cruisers that is only surpassed by the Space Wolves and possibly the Ultramarines.
The fact that they detest the Inquisition even more just tells you how much they hate the Inquisition, then.
Also they aren't supposed to be duels to the death... its just that between space knights and space vikings, thresholds of violence tend to become meaningless.
>Deathwatch tells us 15% of chapters are DA successors.
Ultramarines make up at least 67% of Chapters.
That leaves only 33% of which Imperial Fists are said to have the largest slice of the pie.
Yeah that is odd because the Blood Angels also say hello, and they have a metric fuckton of Chapters.
Although I think it's safer to say that the Ultramarine number is too large. Even if the Dark Angels don't have many modern Chapters formed, they were the second largest loyalist Legion and thus would have a shitload of successors still from the post heresy days from M31-M32 or so.
>Although I think it's safer to say that the Ultramarine number is too large.
It's not. Ultras are said to be over two thirds.
>a shitload of successors still from the post heresy days from M31-M32 or so.
Probably long since wiped out.
>they were the second largest loyalist Legion and thus would have a shitload of successors still from the post heresy days from M31-M32 or so
Not officially, no - they had shit relations with the High Lords of Terra, so even though they are only one ones besides Ultras to have pure and unmutated geneseed, they were not used as progenitors for many successor chapters often. Most of the time Dark Angels had to initiate founding process themselves, using whatever political leverage they had over Adeptus Terra to get what they want.
Although that's OFFICIALLY. Outside the records, it was definitely used in geneseed experiments for creating new lines and hybridizing existing ones (what's with DA always delivering the geneseed tithe, leading to Terra having unholy shitton of their unused pure geneseed in stockpiles). Plus DA were accused of Legion building since M32, with high suspicion of unauthorized chapter founding.
>accused of Legion building
I've always wondered why the High Lords give a shit about this. The Codex isn't true law- many chapters completely shatter the Codex and even piss on it in the process. Of all the Legions too, the Dark Angels are probably the second best to have a shitload of (after the Ultramarines) because while they don't follow orders, they do a good job at rooting out heresy. Their constant chase of Fallen always ensures they're hot on the heels of Chaos Cults.
>I've always wondered why the High Lords give a shit about this. The Codex isn't true law
The tactical doctrines aren't. The splitting the power of the Legions is.
>while they don't follow orders, they do a good job at rooting out heresy. Their constant chase of Fallen always ensures they're hot on the heels of Chaos Cults.
The High Lords don't know shit about the Fallen , they just see the Dark Angels as suspicious and unreliable assholes.
>I've always wondered why the High Lords give a shit about this
Because in case of shit going south, a rogue Chapter they can fuck up - see Badab War. But a Rogue Legion can seriously fuck up them. And it's the Dark Angels we're talking about - since the Time of Forging, nobody ever trusted them.
> they do a good job at rooting out heresy. Their constant chase of Fallen always ensures they're hot on the heels of Chaos Cult
True, but that resolve also means that they have their own agenda on top of the list, as opposed to Ultra goody-two-shoes lapdogs who treat Terra like if it's their mission control.
>Well the High Lords don't really give a buck about it
High Lords are pissed 24/7about it, but Supreme Grand Masters just keep going
>"Where is proofs, luv? You no have evidence of our supposed "crimes"! Everyone who could ever tell you anything is dead, I know iii-aah I-I, I mean, they did not exist in the first place. Because we never did anything wrong. Yes. That's what I meant."
Wiping out some of the First Founding loyalists basing on just some speculation would be a political nightmare for anyone in Imperium. Never mind that there is a good chance of Unforgiving just shitting all over not only Minotaurs, but any congregation of chapters that Terra can assemble to deal with them. Meaning that instead of a bunch untrustworthy but supposedly loyal chapters Imperium would get straight out rogue Legion up it's ass, and all of the leashed chapters very very dead.
Not really worth it in the end, so they just keep snooping around with very little results.
But the Dark Angels can no longer go rogue. In Legacy of Caliban it's revealed that all Dark Angels have similar indoctrination that marines had during Rogue Trader- Chaplains can issue commands that put their men into a trance state where their memories can be wiped and reprogrammed. This way no Angel can fall again unless removed from his Chaplains.
>Jesus fuck how are there even Fallen left?
The Galaxy is pretty fucking big, and Fallen were evenly spread all across space and time.
Think playing Pokemon in Elite: Dangerous without any mission markers.
>Implying Terminator armour isn't actually worse in a fighting Astartes corridor scenario, given how easily it's obliterated by Plasma and Melta weapons and slows you down
By the Emperor, you have no sense of tactical practicality, do you? I bet you're one of those "throw bigger stuff at it, it'll work," kind of people that bitches when his supersoldiers are gunned down by Tau firelines.
>Hurr, give them Terminator Armour guys, it's thicker so it's obviously better!
>Slowing down your strike force, giving the DA time to put Meltas and Plasma weapons in place about the Rock
>Watching as your Terminators turn to slag because you sacrificed tactical practicality for bigger exosuits
By the Emperor, you're probably one of those guys that thinks "send bigger stuff, it'll work!" and bitches when his supersoldiers are gunned down by Tau firelines.
As the OP seems to be framing it; All of the Unforgiven against any other single chapter, the no.
No Chapter is sufficiently better than the Unforgiven to overcome somewhere between 20-to-1 and 100-to-1 odds. (I am assuming that the Unforgiven make up between 4 and 10% of all chapters, the most numerous Chapter is the Space Wolves who number 2000 or so).
Is this surprising? You've rigged the playing field somewhat.
If you let the Ultramarines pull in their (less tightly knit, but massively more numerous) successors, the Ultramarines win. If you let chapters pull in their long-standing allies, various other chapters might win. If you kept it limited to Chapter vs. Chapter, the Black Templars or Space Wolves would win, due to numbers. Make it a 1000 vs 1000 and victory would go to the Grey Knights.
But, as you are framing it, no single Chapter can stand against 20-to-100 DA successors acting in unison.
This is not a surprising fact.
There's a shitload of archeotech on the rock, to the point where cypher turned up one day and told the dark angels that they have a perfect time machine on the rock that no one else knew about.
The watchers in the dark are warp entities, but they fight against chaos. They're anti-daemon daemons basically.
>specifically state proper 1v1 chapter battle
>bring up unforgiven, ultramarine successor chapters, ordo malleus
nigga pls. None of those are allowed.
Space Wolves do outnumber them, but they don't have as strong a fleet.
Black Templars or Imperial Fists on the other hand...
In the SW codex their fleet is listed, and it's enormous. They have 8 Battle Barges while most chapters only have 2-3 and have 30+ Strike Cruisers, the vessels able to transport a SM company without problems.
We don't know how big the DA fleet is, but I think that saying that they have for sure more than the SW is preposterous
They do, but still not nearly as much as Ultras have, and they were mostly founded in later time on Terran funds, which meant that mostly unscathed original DA still have most of the stuff they had during Heresy (except the relics shared among the successors for muh spiritual connection and the most gangsta bling that they passed on to Relictors).
Also don't the SW tend to board/capture vessels. I remember from one of the SW books that they captured a grand crusier from heretics, forget what they did with it after but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept it. I imagine each great company probably has a few of its own ships that aren't listed just going by some of the stuff from the SW books.
>know all about the Fallen and many of their secrets
>Draigo has no clue WHY the Dark Angels have been hoarding up Chaos Marines for ten thousand years
Keep telling yourself that, buddy.
Ah okay, so you're saying they're not really tied to the DA as a chapter and that they're just the usual orphaned chapters that are spread around, right?
I know the star phantoms are one of which that are implied to be DA successors, are there any others?
>for what purpose
That's the same thing.
Dunno about chapter, but Cypher does it by himself on regular occasions
>That's the same thing.
He knows that he's collecting Dark Angels. That's why.
He doesn't know for what reason he's doing it.
He doesn't know about their creepy obsession.
>Grey Knight can't structure a proper sentence to save his life
This is why we kill off scouts who act tardy, lest they infect the geneseed.
>The Grey Knights know about the Fallen aboard the Rock and many of the Dark Angels secrets
>‘Is he up there in those dungeons of yours, along with all those others you’ve collected down the centuries? What do you want with them? What is it that you do to them?’
He knew enough to bluff Azrael, but he didn't have specifics, and couldn't get them from Epimetheus either. He hasn't got the grounds to go after the Dark Angels. It would just be the Months of Shame all over again. And, of course, Draigo's a little indisposed at the moment.
Lol do you know how psychologically horrifying and disturbing the process of gaining entry to the inner circle is? It breaks almost everyone, those that make it are shadows of their former selves who rarely speak and are the most dark and brooding figures in the entire forty fucking kay universe. A member of the inner circle falling to chaos? These niggers are so hard they make the grey knights look like pussies, dark angels know how evil their souls are, grey knights do not.
No they don't. They have many, many successors and they have incorporated some of the roles of the Administratum in Ultramar (Marnius Calgar is also planetary governor of Macragge and commands the PDF) but their successors do not take orders from Calgar the way the Grand Masters of Unforgiven chapters do from Azrael.
>the most dark and brooding figures in the entire forty fucking kay universe
Well, I mean, you've spent a couple of centuries bekng told that loyalty is the highest calling, despise the heretic, punish the guilty, etc. And then one day you find out Surprise! Half a Legion's worth of you brothers are out there doing heretical things. No wonder the Inmer Circle is obsessed.
Actually, now that I think about it, that's probably Asmodai's deal. He joined the Inner Circle before getting through all of the apocryphal tales and philosophical preparation that the DA try to use to soften the blow.
See if you read that, it implies something that would have been perfectly acceptable for the reduction of the BT numbers. They have a massive ship for a chapter of much greater size. So they must have had a much bigger size chapter at one point.
Would be fine wih "BT's used to be huge, all died of in crusades of attrition" instead of "lol nope they are normal size and always have been."
According to the Horus Heresy novels/novellas/short stories/audiodramas, out of about 150,000 Dark Angels (30 Orders, 5 Chapters to an Order, 1000 marines to a Chapter), 20,000 were stationed on Caliban at the time of the Heresy.
There may be a equal numbers of loyalists and Fallen by the time the Lion returns to Caliban if Luther keeps recruiting and the loyalists keep taking casualties, but currently, the disposition of the Dark Angels is
20,000 in Ultramar, under the command of the Lion.
~100,000 spread across multiple systems, operating as individual Orders at the command of Corswain.
~20,000 on Caliban, under the command of Luther. Some number of these are under guard after trying to depose Luther.
5,000, under direct command of Corswain, heading towards Caliban to ask Luther to mobilize and fight on the Loyalist side of the Heresy. Bet that'll go well.
a) don't limit themselves to Codex strength
b) regularly embark on highly dangerous Crusades (dangerous even by Astartes standards)
I expect their fighting strength yoyos a fair deal. Ranging from 600-3000 at any one time strikes me as not an unreasonable assumption.
Its true that no chapter can match the smurfs by successors.
That's the smart way to go about it, assuming their pattern of behaviour is apparent in universe, but where Dark Angels are threatened, the Rock tends to arrive. Just look at Styx.
Only when Ragnar freaks out. It's supposed to be to first blood. Really, if nothing else, the Wolves would probably back the DA against the Inquisition just so they have someone to compete with. One suspects that they would be rather miffed at the suggestion they have a weak rival.
Nigga if I wasn't 400 miles away from my codex. They're honour duels between two chapters who respect each other greatly but also honour their primarchs by re-enacting the original duel. Death is a possible, but rare
Well the Space Wolves then have a pretty good chance of blasting the Dark Angels into nothingness since they have an equal number of Battle Barges, almost twice as many Strike Cruisers, and Retribution-class Battleship.
>Scythes of the Emperor
Literally who, the chapter.
One step above Khornates, with tactics to match, don't stand a chance against any first legion, let alone DA.
Ultramarines would get fucked by their own codex compliance, as they'd find themselves outgunned.
If its chapter v chapter then you might have a point with Space Wolves... although what with The Rock and the fact that we've got a slumbering primarch just waiting for something like that... it would be interesting.
>Lion wakes up
>Start beating his own marines because their wasting time fighting their own brothers instead of
Than Leman Russ comes out from the Eye of Terror
And precedes to get autism-punched once again.
what if - for reasons - the da must fight the high lords. which chapters join them? unforgiven, certainly; but who else?
as for reasons, say two - fallen treachery revealed; or high lord treachery suspected
or stay out of it all together - remember Goge Vandire managed to rule the imperium uncontested by the space marines for 70-odd years - AND remember the nova terra interregnum which saw the imperium split for a few hundred (?) years: we do not know which marine chapters served on which side during that conflict (do we?)
it seems to me the blood angels and space wolves might give the da's the benefit of the doubt. also the crimson fists - who were helped by the entire raven wing back in 989 when they got ork-thumped.
>He even chats with Dark Angel Dreadnoughts because he's so chill for motivation speeches. A Deathwing Terminator gets depressed after getting demolished by a Nurgle infection, but the Emperor comes to him and coaches him out of his depression.
Taking a good look of this thread I don't know who to go for. I like Dark Angels, but I also like Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. I'll probably go Dangle but only because they're my favorite chapter next to the Bangles.
Second and third books in the Legacy of Caliban series. Deathwing Terminator gets mortally wounded and almost gives up on life, but the Emperor gives him the will to live with constant pep talks even after he's been fully healed and put in a Dreadnought. Cause the Emperor's a bro.
man these DA have tons shit terminator armors, plasma guns ,bikes , vengeance land speeders and areotech fighter
their commanders are all super duper talents rise through ranks rise through space marine ranks meteoric
Likely the Founding Chapters will either join them (pretty likely for Space Wolves and Blood Angels especially) or stay out of the fray- they wouldn't be willing to repeat the Horus Heresy for the High Lords. For the Emperor, yes...
I'm going to say the Ordo Malleus, which being an Inquisitorial branch can call on pretty much anything else in the entire Imperium to come help out, ignoring the ridiculous stuff some of the Inquisitors alone have. is going to outmatch the Dark Angels.
Really depends on the battle.
If they siege imperial fists, they probably lose.
If they defend against Iron hands in urban, lose.
If they go up against space wolves in right terrain, lose.
Basically it depends greatly on the scenario.
I play Tau so I don't know specifics, but the difference between f**ked and not f**ked often lies in where they do battle and other factors like that.
Admittedly they also receive the rarest and best armours and weapons in the imperium, excluding the mechanicus, who hoard all the best tech.
To the point, they are better equipped then standard sm.
Also they are trained so so SO much harder then normal space marines. So hard they forget everything about themselves.
Only tanks work like that.
A good strat is a tank with terminators inside.
Tank takes fire, Terminators get out next to them and f**k them up. Nightmare for small games with tau.
>so hard they make grey knights look like pussies.
Actually, not true, for chaos terms at least.
Inner circle have stupidly strong wills, and can take some stupidly strong shit.
But Grey knights have the same thing essentially, gruling entry trials.
(sorry I don't know the specifics)
They also have the Aegis, which is basically a psychic barrier of immense power that is basically impregnable. Combined with their names, which also possess anti daemon qualities, being the bane of a particular daemon somewhere. Also their entire body and armanant is engineered to prevent corruption by other entities.
In terms of chaos, Inner circle are by no means pussies, but all in all are still more prone then GK. Not that it even matters at that stage.
They arrive with 15 brand spanking new ships, and 1000 sets of Terminator Armour courtesy of the High Lords of Terra.
The rock is a giant floating asteroid. It can't move that fast. Just wipe the fleet before the rocks arrives and let it find the DA bodies displayed in order to mimick autofellatio
However pro-imperium he might have been, the chances of his chapter turning on their First Founding cousins on the High Lord's orders are pretty slim. I think the only thing that could make any of the first chapters outright turn on one another would be clear, blatant chaos corruption.
>being a fag for liking the first legion
Let me guess, your faction got BTFO by them at some point in time?
Stay mad, kid.
Are you suggesting your Mary Sues can do what THE EMPEROR HIMSELF could not? In the Battle of Terra, even big E had to wait for Horus' void shields to go down before he could teleport onto his flagship to confront him...
Sounds like heresy if you ask me.
Pretty much this. I think there's even more to it, though.
If the High Lords brought hard proof of the Fallen, they might get support, especually from people the DA ran out on recently, but even then, a lot of Chapters would probably shrug and call it an internal matter. If they just tried to slap the Unforgiven down for being administratively difficult or talking to their successors a lot, that would be a shot at every Chapter. They do value their independence. The whole First Founding, most of the Second, and probably every chapter on good terms with their progenitor or having even one skeleton in their closet would back the DA regardless of their opinion on the Unforgiven, because it would be a threat to them too. If the High Lords wanted to start the Azrael Heresy, they would need ironclad proof just to have a loyalist side.
>Implying the rock has voidshields as powerful as Horus
>Implying the Grey Knights, being all Psykers, can't manage to create a tiny little ripple in them so that they can pass through it
>Implying The Emps would've needed Horus to lower his voidshields to get on board, but he had to wait to allow his strike team to get on the ship with him
I will go beyond implication.
Yes, the Rock's void shields are more powerful than Vengeful Spirit's. No, the Grey Knights cannot Mary Sue a hole in them. Yes, the Emperor had to wait for Horus to lower his void shields because this isn't a matter of psychic might, it's a matter of teleporters not working that way.
Sometimes I wish GW would do what Marvel does and give us "alternate dimensions" where they can advance the lore with things that would actually upset the balance (like the aforementioned "Azrael Heresy") while simultaneously maintaining the balance in their universe 0. But then again, that's what fans are for.
Admittedly conjecture, but my thinking is thus. While Vengeful Spirit was an astoundingly huge ship, the Rock is more akin to a moon with engines stuck on. It has more room for power generation, givng it greater potential. We know the Tower of Angels' shield could stand up to orbital bombardment that was melting the rest of the planet, so the DA have access to some pretty substantial shields. Furthermore, the Rock is a huge, if sturdy, target that needs protection from all angles, and probably relies on its shields to hold together during acceleration. Taken as a whole, I conclude that the Rock's shielding, at least around any zones worth teleporting into, is at minimum the match of Vengeful Spirit's, even with Chaos screwing with conventional measures of the latter. Though it's fortunate you believe the other arguments, because that is by far my weakest premise.
Other chapters have faced down turning trator and the penance that comes with it, DA just took it like bitches who dont want to lose face in front of everyone else.
Its no more psychologically horrifying than any other chapter that had gone through the same thing.
Putting the Malleus up against the entire First Legion by a different name is like showing up to a sword fight with a handful of one inch scalpels.
Plenty sharp, but the wrong tool for the job.
Fists have the Phalanx which is probably on par with if not better than The Rock
BT have one of the largest fleets, the Eternal Crusader and the best ship commander in the Imperium
Its much, much worse.
The destroyed their entire homeworld over the heresy and lost their primarch in the bargain. The indoctrination into the Inner Circle for chaplains that survive crushes them into grim shadows of their former selves- all because they know that the very existence of their chapter hangs on the notion that absolutely no one can know there are still Fallen Angels running around out there. While for most chapters their fallen brothers are distant sources of vague shame, for the Dark Angels they are a constant threat and their annihilation the ultimate goal of the chapter, with some Unforgiven founded exclusively for hunting them.
the game stats do not bear out your assertion - the difference, mechanically, between gk's and sm's is, what, slightly higher ws and psionics? face it - a marine is a marine is a marine.
i like your post! just to clarify what >>44748856
said (as i see it) The point that anon was making is that the gk are MADE to be resistant to chaos from the beginning, while the inner circle have come to be resistant thru centuries of bad-assery - implying that such experience makes them intrinsically harder and grimmer.
seems reasonable - i came into this thread assuming the sm's would be split in their support/condemnation of the da's - but opinions seem to be leaning toward sm's being bros and not turning on one another - which is born out by the facts of Vandire's Reign of Blood. noice! consider my mind altered.
Do you even know what the Dark Angels do? Are you arguing about things you know nothing about? The Dark Angels are, hands down, the largest chapter because all of their successor chapters are literally just the Dark Angels with a different name so that they can say "Hey we're totally following the rules lol".
'weakest premise'? i don't think so - at the end of the legacy of caliban series SPOILERS the da's finally power up the Rock. Think about that - for the last 10,000 years they've been running the Rock on minimal power; but as of 13th Black Crusade, the Rock is now fully activated. Fully fucking activated. It hammered the fleet of Typhus and sent the Terminus Est to route. All By Itself.
the Lamenters, while being waay awesome, have not spent the last 10,000 years doin' the dirty behind the scenes - they are of the Cursed Founding, so folks expect them to do weird shit; First Foundings don't do dark stuff (right?)
>your faction got BTFO by the DA
Where were the DA during the Siege of Terra?
to be fair, anon - unless we are discussing some galaxy-wide schism, we should limit the 1v1 discussion to da chapter, NOT legion.
so, it's not right to invoke the unforgiven when some oversized chapter comes calling - besides, the da's are not in the least intimidated by superior numbers.
>"Hey we're totally following the rules lol".
You know, one of my favorite things about the DA/SW rivalry is how the two chapters managed to go in opposed directions and come back around to basically the same place. They both, for completely different reasons, dodge Codex restrictions, reject all accountability, kill Inquisitors for messing with them, and just do as they will across the galaxy without any explanation. From the High Lords' perspective they're probably indistinguishable. They probably have dartboards with Logan's and Azrael's faces on them.
Cool, but I've still got to read those. It's my worst argument because it's guesswork coming from me, while I'm quite sure teleporting through void shields isn't a function of psychic power.
Well, considering that they have chosen Logan as supreme leader of all the Imperium forces on Cadia, I'd assume that their impression of the Space Wolves (and the Dark Angels) are not so grim.
They know/think that those two chapters are complete assholes, but they also know that if shit hits the fan they will fight for the sake of the Imperium
unless they find a Fallen on the other side of the galaxy
to your first point - that seems perfectly reasonable - and hilarious - that the high lords would see da's and sw's in exactly the same light, while they see themselves as almost exact opposites.
to your second point - sorry i blew one of the ending's cool surprises for you. And I have not found any examples of psykers breaching void shields (except maybe magnus)
That means nothing. He was saying that the dark angels response to the fallen is defendable compared to other chapters with traitors because they have it much worse off.
My point is that in the grand scheme of things, the dark angels not only don't have it worse off, but those that really do have it worse off, the lamenters in this case, take it like an Astartes and don't hide their shame, and put their own interest ahead of the imperium's in order to keep that shame hidden. In fact, in the lamenters case, they not only had it worse off than the dark angels, but they end up being better as people/Astartes than the dark angels, to the point that the lamenters are one of the few cases of what could be called "good guys' in the 40k setting
>They know/think that those two chapters are complete assholes, but they also know that if shit hits the fan they will fight for the sake of the Imperium
Oh, that's why the Marines are allowed to operate so far outside the standard chain of command in the first place. They're not going to be popular, but they're rather indispensible.
Besides, Luther and Ezekiel both claim the Fallen are concentrated around Cadia, so the Gate should be getting their full attention.
the Lamenters have not been hiding their secret, as you say
which was my point, because for 10,000 years the da's HAVE been hiding their secret. THAT'S the shame they are hiding. NOT the traitors; but what they've been doing because of their traitors. And they can't defend that. And they know it. THAT'S the da's flaw.
He's the Disciples' problem. Or would be, if all the Unforgiven hadn't been diverted to the Gate. So everyone's just hoping that his little something is delivered pommel first, instead of point first.
>It hammered the fleet of Typhus and sent the Terminus Est to route. All By Itself.
>Literal weaponized moon solos conventional fleet. More at Eleven.
The Rock's terrifying in a fight even at nominal power. It and the Sword Fleet went toe-to-toe with the Red Corsairs and Black Legion navies at the Adamantine Fields after a numerically superior Imperial fleet got its shit kicked in (admittedly, the Imperial admiral was a moron), and when they were done, the DA and GK just strolled into Pandorax. The IF have about the only individual Navy that can be directly compared, much less outgun the DA, and that's less the numerical superiority than because they've got a moon of their own. And even then, at least the Rock isn't infested by
I'm sure the Emperor will be fine...
but speaking of the unforgiven at cadia - where is this mentioned? this is the first i've heard this news - last thing i knew, the imp forces at cadia were grumpy that the da's weren't there at all...
It's the last item on the timeline in the 6E and 7E codices. Azrael calls up the successors, and sends them all in, with the Rock en route itself. As of 999M41, they're heading to the Gate, but won't arrive until early 001M42 (read as: never).
Actually it's planetoid sized, and it's just as speedy as any large IOM battleship due to the fuckhuge engines strapped onto it, coupled with warp engines.
A Mekboy would shed a tear looking at the Tower of Angels.
The Rock actually has MORE powerful void shields than Horus' flagship. The Tower of Angels' void shields are so strong they survived the cyclonic torpedoes that destroyed Caliban. They can tank shots from fucking exterminatus munitions.
No, Cypher is gone. At the end of the Legacy of Caliban books Cypher opens up a portal to the destruction of Caliban and jumps ten thousand years into the past. So now there's two Cyphers in the immediate post heresy era.
>DA have their own not so secret legion
>DA have dormant primarch present in their stronghold
>DA have the only working jetbike in Imperium
>DA have more terminators suits than chapters with working knowledge of technology
>muh antiarmor plasma focus
>DA have fuckton of relics
>DA stronghold is a huge starship bigger than Eldar craftworld
Dark Angels sound like child attempt to make the bestest space marine Chapter evar
well, we thank you for conceding defeat, baitanon!
>Thinks the guy who wrote and earnestly believed in the Codex Astartes has been intentionally violating it at all time
>Somehow thinks Ultramarines have the same cohesion as the Unforgiven
Face facts- smurfs don't get to be best in everything.
Hopefully this is bait because it sure reads like it.
That's Grey Knights you are thinking of.
And in all fairness, they are the FIRST LEGION, and a fouding chapter- of course they have all sorts of goodies. I mean, the most recent starter set is DA themed and even the rulebook has them on the cover- they are nearly as extensive as Ultramarines in their poster-child levels.
Yeah they do stand out together, and if you run multiwing then you get a sort of odd assortment of dark green, black, cream and red that makes it look like you've got three armies on the table.
>Not liking green
The Green Knight would like a word with you, heretic.
That is what makes playing Dark Angels awesome. You have specialized parts of your army in different colours all on the table ready to fuck shit up.
I sold my 5000 pts of DA a few months ago because I just don't have the time to play, but I am totally going to start a DA HH army when their rules come out because holy shit, six wings?!?!?!
Heresy Era the Dark Angels had six wings they were split up into
and one other that I can't recall currently. Unlike all the other legions that had their main specialty, Dark Angels were baller at everything because they weren't all GOTTA GO FAST or CHARGE THEM AND DROWN THEM IN BODIES
If the Grey Knights get proof, or orders, to move on the Dark Angels, they'll be doing it with the weight of the Inquisition behind them, and possibly several other Space Marine chapters.
However, this entire discussion is about some trumped-up one-on-one battle between chapters, which means none of them can compete with the Ultramarines in terms of pure numbers and assets. They practice the same bit of doublespeak as the Dark Angels do with their "successor chapters" and do it more often, with bigger numbers. Then they have the assets of the entirety of Ultramar to draw on. It'd be a hellacious slugfest, but the Ultras would -eventually- win out.
hmm come to think about it they are becoming space marine poster boy these days
but they always mean to be shady but powerful as fuck chapter
>DA stronghold is a huge starship bigger than Eldar craftworld
not sure about that but they mostly rock anyway
The reason I went Space Wolves in 1990 or so was that I refused to repaint my plastic Mk6 beakies from black to dark green when GW changed up the Dark Angels color scheme,
I still have them someplace.
Some of it is in "Unremembered Empire" as Guillman meets up with the Lion and deciphers a lot of the strange heraldry in his armor's engraving.
"Guilliman noticed details of particular weapons carried by the Dark Angels – beam and projectile weapons of various kinds that even he did not immediately recognise. The First Legion had arsenals containing devices unknown to all the other Legions. The Dark Angels had been the first created, and their history predated all other institutions of the Legiones Astartes. They were, in many regards, the prototype. It was said that during the latter years of the Unification War and the first years of the Great Crusade, before the other Legions had been constructed, the Dark Angels had known and done things that no other Legion was privy to. They had built their strengths and identity in that era, in isolation.
That identity had needed to be complete. When there was only one Legion, that Legion had been obliged to contain all specialisms. Guilliman knew that the six hosts or ‘wings’ of the Dark Angels represented specialisms of every school, at subtle variance to the standard order of the Principia Bellicosa.
Guilliman had also heard tell of secret orders and mysterious hierarchies within the ranks of the Dark Angels; hierarchies of knowledge, trust and authority invisible to outsiders. It explained some of their curious insignia, which sometimes bore no relation to rank or company structure.
Like their lord, the warriors of the First Legion were coded, shrouded and ciphered. They kept secrets well, perhaps too well. This was a legacy, Guilliman believed, of the formative days when they were alone and had no other Legion to rely on.
Without any sign of a signal, the Dark Angels suddenly stopped their drill and froze, as one singular form. Perfect. Perfect.
He’s really showing off, Guilliman thought."
"The Lion emerged from his lander stony-faced, bareheaded, his long golden hair trailing in the wind. So beautiful, so deadly, so empty, so unreadable. He carried his war-helm under his left arm, and marched with the same perfect discipline that his men displayed. To each side of him came his voted lieutenants, in identical step. Beloved Corswain was commanding the First Legion elements on the other side of the Ruinstorm, so the Lion was braced by Holguin and Farith Redloss. Holguin carried an executioner’s long sword upright before him in his two hands, the tip of the six-foot blade rounded over like a butter knife. His pauldron was marked with the crossed swords of the Deathwing. Redloss carried a massive war-axe, haftwise across his chest. His pauldron bore the skull-in-hourglass of the Dreadwing. All three wore black artificer armour worked with red Martian gold."
"The Lion looked at Guilliman. The Avenging Son looked at the Lion. The Lion’s black armour was richly engraved and inlaid with red gold. The chestplate and pauldrons displayed all the interconnected icons and symbols of his Legion, the complex heraldry of the Dark Angels hierarchies, visible and invisible. All the secret hosts, thrones and powers of the First Legion’s secret structure were represented there, united by the central insignia, the six-pointed hexagrammaton. He wore the pelt of a forest beast across his right shoulder, and the golden badge of a shrouded urn at his throat."
All first founding chapters have so much plot armour it would be immovable object vs immovable object. If the Dark Angels get to have all their successors then the Ultramarines get to have all theirs and would beat anyone with 500,000 marines. But chapter to chapter the Space Wolves obviously win in any match up.
And Caliban would get destroyed by the Phalanx, no questions asked.
Black Library is not fucking canon, how long will it take you retards to get it through your heads?
you can back up your phalanx argument with something, yes?
to be fair, every bl author has different views on the grimderp - each provides wildly different interpretations that conflict with each other. the bl is not helpful when it comes to canon 'discussions'
Because in the 40K universe, no one knows what is history, what is myth, what is legend, and what is heresy*BLAM*
*THE ABOVE POSTER WAS EXECUTED FOR THIS POST- BLESSED IS THE MIND TOO SMALL FOR DOUBT- PRAISE THE EMPEROR!*
that's a fine post, heretic - and it's a fine argument if yer talking 30k - but 40k bl novels are considered 'present'; thus, no history is being invoked - yet all 'present' bl books can't get their facts straight. at all. ever.
i WANT geedubs to get their shit together
that won't happen
so - we gotta take what we can get, but we must understand that rulebook = canon, bl and codices = subcanon, but all we're gonna get