standard: $300-$700 for cards that rotate out in 6 months
Modern: $500-$3500 for a deck that will never rotate out
Commander: $500-$2500 for a singleton format aimed at being fun and casual.
Standard cards start out around $60 at release, to jump down to 20$ in 3 months time.
Cards jumping 500%-5000% when there is even a slight hint that people might want them or are already overplayed staple cards.
Face facts, there is something wrong with the economy of this game.
Before you ask, yes I do work, but the problem is that this game which is nothing more than cardstock and ink shouldn't be limited to people who can shit out 2000$ on a whim.
That could pay for:
A smart tv.
Down payment on a car (or a shitty car)
First and last months rent.
Paying off credit card debt
Appliances like fridges stoves washers and dryers.
A fuck ton of weed.
A vacation on a boat or to a casino.
But no, lets spend it on cardboard.
You jelly poor fag, lol can't even afford what i have (which is really rare BTW, just so you know)
Paid 50 dollars for my samurai deck, 28 for the additional mana base and cards I didn't have, pulled the rest from my collection.
You know the worst part of it is that if you have the cards you still get fucked over by the price gouging because it generates smaller events and smaller price pools.
Or just less events in general as has happened to Vintage and Legacy.
Magic is only expensive if you play in tournaments or if your playgroup is super competitive. I have 20+ decks and all are in the 20-50€ range. I get to play every week, switch around decks so it doesn't get stale, and always have fun and win often enough.
That's the thing. My group switched to EDH because we wanted to play less competitive games. Last night one of our players boasted about their deck being worth around $500. I guess we fucked up.
But everyone knows the solution. WotC could simply start reprinting format staples until prices were reduced, but they just don't want to.
What really needs to happen is someone making some good counterfeits so people can play the game.
>WotC could simply start reprinting format staples until prices were reduced
No, they can't, and not just because that would get them into legal trouble, but also because many people would give up the game when it turns out that it isn't a sound investment.
Many people, including myself, would seriously reconsider their commitment to the game if cards that were hard to get a hold off suddenly lost all their value.
This is so much bullshit that I need a proof.
Poor kids can draft or play on cockatrice. No need to spend a bunch of money. I waited years until playing standard constructed just so I would have most of the cards from drafting.
If you double sleeve, you won't get many people checking on how legit your card is.
You can always import Asian cards and use those.
>Face facts, there is something wrong with the economy of this game.
Why wrong? The game is alive and well, which means people can find someone to play, and that's the important part of any competition-based game. Is Halo: Master Chief collection a better game than Halo 5? Yes. Is it a bitch to get playable servers? Yes. Does this massively impact enjoyment? Fuck yes it does.
>MTG prices are too damn high
>Literal meme picture
I don't even play Magic, and the main reason I don't is cost.
I know that WotC banks on the whales likes you to fork over hundreds of dollars for cardboard. But defending the slowly dwindling player base because you've "invested" in a children's card game seems a bit ass backwards.
Basically you're creating a situation where your cards will be worth loads, right up until they're worth nothing. Its fucking beany babies all over again.
Why not just print out 'counterfeit' cards? As long as they look close enough to the legit cards, nobody gives a shit if your cards are legit or not for actual play.
The only one forcing you to play with 'real' cards is you.
Honestly, local community here started to thrive on proxy tournaments kept in student bar. It's only way to play the game, since the FNM legacy has 1-2 players, while proxy tournament has 10+. Even modern proxy tournaments are bigger, than FNMs.
I can't really see how WotC calculated to justify not reprinting cards. Do they not take into account, that easier it is to get into format, the more people it will bring in. Especially since the game has highest popularity ever. To me this is the correct time to start making modern more accessible to get the playerbase to grow, but I foresee they will do this only after people has given up on the format and game. Resulting in disappointing flop.
>But no, lets spend it on cardboard.
Do you even realise that this statement undermines your entire argument?
What you SHOULD be arguing is that the supply and demand equation in regards to Magic cards can only be balanced in an unhealthy way; by demand being forced to lower due to the asking price becoming too high for people who want cards. In a healthy economy, supply rises to meet demand at the optimal price point. But because supply of Magic cards cannot increase due to Wizards and their zero reprint policy, people are forced out of the game for not being willing to pay $110 for a Scalding Tarn.
>that would get them into legal trouble
No one said anything about the reserved list you dumb cunt. What he means is cards like Tarmogoyf and Liliana of the Veil. Cards which Wizards could reprint in sealed product at any time they wanted and charge handsome money for, yet they refuse to.
>if cards that were hard to get a hold off suddenly lost all their value
Standard rotation makes valuable cards nosedive in price every single year and yet people continue to play standard. I think this alone disproves your entire post.
And why should Wizards want to retain players like you anyway? If you treat the game purely as an investment you don't mean anything to Wizards. Just because you own Magic cards doesn't mean Wizards has to care about you and your finances. A bubble can't keep inflating forever. Personally I think Magic would be a much more enjoyable game if everyone could play whatever deck they wanted for <$200. Imagine how much healthier the modern metagame would be if people actually had the cards they needed to brew decks with, rather than risking spending $1000 on something that may end up being worthless.
>The company's strategy of deliberate scarcity, producing each new design in limited quantity, restricting individual store shipments to limited numbers of each design and regularly retiring designs, created a huge secondary market for the toys and increased their popularity and value as a collectible
Sounds familiar. Sadly if this is what Wizards are doing, they haven't factored in the massive amount of money they could make for free by reprinting this shit.
If I had to start from scratch I'd probably just play some of the stronger event decks.
Even though I didn't manage to get everything while it was on their cheapest, I did luck out hard on a lot of the expensive staples.
How the fuck would they get in legal trouble for printing their own cards you bloated parasite.
People who would leave the game because their investor bubble burst deserve to be driven off.
No, it isn't. Because there was never demand for Beanie Babies beyond perceived scarcity and value. When the market can predict scarcity accurately, it adjusts accordingly. Especially in the case of BBs with no underlying demand.
Walk into your local games shop, where you buy your singles. Look at the half dozen cases filled with thousands of dollars of cards. Flooding reprints represent not only a value transfer from the stores to Wizards, but an active devaluation and disincentive to hold cards.
If your store stops holding cards, where are you going to buy your singles? And if the answer is Wizards print flood, where are you going to play after your store essentially flushes it's entire inventory?
Look at Yugioh cards, that shit was printed into the ground, and now there aren't any unlimited singles more than a few years old worth holding.
Assuming I actually had a local game store if it depended on people having to pay for more a card solely because its not been reprinted/is powerful then there would be a problem.
Every card in such games should be sold for the same price and there should be no artificial scarcity.
Sounds nice and all, but consider the following; people like TCGs because not everything in avaiable to them. You need to put into acquiring the cards you want, either by trading or by directly paying for them, and this in turn causes you to feel even more invested in the game. Now it's something you have put your own labour into, your own sweat and blood.
If people really wanted want you claim they want Pauper would be the most popular format bar none, but it isn't. There was a small surge a few years ago, but that has mostly died out and now there's just a few people playing it online.
Play pauper, yo.
Cheap, effective decks are not hard to build. Many archetypes from other formats transfer well also.
I know it's not the best solution, but if you can get a dedicated playgroup together, then it gets really fun.
TCGPlayer would get fucked over by mass reprints more than anything. Do you people seriously not understand how incentive/disincentive to hold works? This is like Econ 102
No local store, no matter how big, can afford to have price uncertainty/having to flush it's inventory.
It's not just MTG. I remember wanting to get into wargaming and Warhammer Fantasy as a child, or just painting models.
Hahaha, fat chance.
Whenever I see someone in their teens with full-blown armies, I know it's a spoiled twat. The neckbearded man-childs I can at least have some respect for.
You are everything that is wrong with the magic community and no one would miss you if you stopped playing.
You should play the game because you enjoy the it not because the cards hold value. Go try your luck with the actual stock market if that is what you want and then let the people who like magic play the game without having to spend 1000$ for a deck.
The most wizards has done is make sets like Modern Masters and From The Vault boxes, which get shipped and sold to game stores exclusively. In general the products tend to help the people who want to play these more expensive formats by getting cards that are, more or less, able to be played in formats like Modern or Legacy.
While the idea that reprinting literally everything would be a good thing in theory, I've seen it take turns for the worse in other places.
In YGO cards tend to be expensive as fuck in the secondary market because of demand and power, which is why shit like Exciton Knight hit $100 and Dracossack hit $80. Because the game has no formats the keep everything from being played save for what's on the banlist, you end up seeing things as simple as the extra deck tech being the most expensive parts of any deck. But then, all of a sudden, Komoney turn around and say "We want to look back at this great year of card games by releasing mega tins! Instead of the normal booster that come in them, we made megaboosters! With 15 cards in each pack, you get a card of each rarity to see how far we've come!" In short, Exciton dropped to a $20 card and Dracossack $12 due to being reprinted in an inexpensive supplementary product.
So while I get your merit that if we just reprinted everything, it wouldn't be so hard to get into formats like Modern and Commander. it's just that if they constantly reprinted what everyone wanted, game stores would lose out because the tops they were selling at $20 suddenly became $5 bucks, and people who got their snapcasters to play in their blue modern deck will feel as if they paid too much all of a sudden for some reason. And for the most part, nobody would even care about getting new things if they didn't play standard because "it'll be reprinted anyways"
tl;dr it's not a very good idea financially for both the player and the store
>paying 100$ for a card is financially better than paying 20$
Wow this sure sounds a lot better for the player. There is only one winner in this and it's not the player and not WotC. The people who sell stuff at ridiculous prices on the secondary market are the ones who profit from the current situation. It just comes down to who WotC likes best, its players or the people who resell the cards on the secondary market and apparently it has never been the players.
>I dont understand the basic laws of economics
There is no such thing as "artificial scarcity" or "paying too much", especially when a secondary market is essential to the health of the format.
If there wasn't value to be captured in the market price, it wouldn't be the market price. I don't understand how people can't fathom that. If people weren't buying from SSG and CK, they wouldn't make any money.
Additionally, binning the secondary market would completely kill any concept of singles sales at all, and every single person and store who holds cards would get a dick in their ass.
The same people who complain about card sellers would then just complain about how Wizards is forcing them to line up and pay their price. The same amount of value would be captured, it's just currently allocated to stores you play at rather than Wizards.
Turns out that people who actually buy and sell cards are more of a focus for Wizards than people who bitch about "Star City Jews" and "artificial scarcity" myths.
Anything unlimited in YGO from more than a few years ago is literally not worth the paper its printed on, and "next year reprints" just kill essentially all inventive to chase and hold current cards.
Unless you happened to have one of those cards, or had an inventory of them, in which case you got fucked over, and you are significantly less likely to hold cards ever again, thus inhibiting the ability to move the cards with zero added value.
Falling. Prices. Cause. Value. Losses. Active disincentive to hold something is a really shitty way to get people to buy things.
Not everyone is approaching Magic from the perspective of how much money can make selling rare cards to other people you realise. The people who want it as a GAME are not going to be put off by it not costing a fortune to get the good cards.
People opposing things being made cheaper and more available to everyone else because they paid a fortune for it are a cancer on every hobby where this occurs.
>you want Wizards to actually reprint stuff, you are a dangerous revolutionary!
Wow, really now?
>If there wasn't value to be captured in the market price, it wouldn't be the market price. I don't understand how people can't fathom that. If people weren't buying from SSG and CK, they wouldn't make any money.
I don't understand how you can't fathom that the only reason these cards hold so much value is because WotC reprints so damn little. If more reprints were made the price would fall it's as simple as that.
I hate people who only buy cards because they see it as an investment. This is a fucking game and the cards are made to be played with. How on earth would the fact that the game is cheap scare you away or remove all your incentive to buy into it? People buy and play games based on how much fun they are having not how much money can be made once they get tired of it resell it. People who see magic as an investment and not a game are the cancer that is killing magic for me.
I'm not either, but Wizards saying "eat a dick, your collection is worth nothing now" like Konami causes those players to exit the game rather than revel in having their value raped.
Not even to mention that the biggest "cancer on the hobby" in your opinion is YOUR LOCAL STORE.
Wizards uses rotating formats with the explicit purpose of keeping prices low for people like you, and you're still bitching?
> If more reprints were made the price would fall it's as simple as that.
Im done repeating basic economic concepts ad having you just ignore them. You plugging your ears and saying "LOW PRICES ARE GOOD" won't save your local store from eating dick if reprints get flooded.
> How on earth would the fact that the game is cheap scare you away or remove all your incentive to buy into it?
Because no matter how much I spent on the game, the EV over time would always be negative. Why would I buy cards now if they're just going to be cheaper later? Why would anyone buy any product at any price knowing and expecting that the value over time of that product is negative? If I wanted to "just play the game," I could sharpie text over paper and play with that, and reprints would never change that.
You'd argument about disincentive is kind of specious in that you're insisting that they would just mass reprint every staple all at once and then the value of everyone's collection is suddenly reduced to zero, so I don't see how you're taking whatever high ground you seem to be standing on
Also, "later" is not now. No one is going to wait forever for Wizards to reprint Inquisition of Kozilek, which is why people are buying it at $30 even though eventually it won't be worth that much
>You plugging your ears and saying "LOW PRICES ARE GOOD" won't save your local store from eating dick if reprints get flooded.
The only stores who would get fucked are the ones who solely rely on the MtG secondary market. I'm not even sure if my local store even sells singles. I know that some stores - online especially - lives almost solely on reselling cards. That doesn't change my opinion on the fact that the cards are way too fucking expensive. Besides it would take a long time before prices actually fell so low the stores would have to close, it's not like a single reprint on Goyf would make it a 1$ card.
Also fucking cares that they spent 10$ on a card today they could get for 5$ in two years. Yea it would have saved you a bit to wait but wouldn't have been able to play with it.
>playing in tournaments
>expecting anything to be cheap
kitchen table master race reporting in
Again, I do not have a 'local store'.
Everyone plays in clubs or houses here.
Are you kidding? The VAST majority of people into /tg/ games buy them with no consideration of what the resale value will be. That does not mean they want to play 40k with little round cards saying 'Space marine' and 'Ork' on them. People still want the official product most of the time.
Most products people buy throughout their life will be thrown away or resold at a much lower value and they know that when they buy it.
>It's an investment!
Without counting the most recent set, jame five cards that have come out in the past ten years that are still worth more than $300 and not declining in price and thus a good investment. The fact is that any somewhat recent cards are not an investment, yet WOTC claims that they are simply so they do not have to spend the money on reprints. Collectors aren't the important issue, the profit margin is.
He's explaining why the idea is bad. It's also not as outlandish as you think it is, as other games, like YGO have already done similar things.
Moreover, the entire premise of this thread is that reprints don't happen fast enough. It stands to reason that mass reprints of every expensive card is exactly what people like OP actually wants.
Rotations don't really keep things cheap. It makes things cheap after they're no longer worth playing. Some cards plummet after leaving standard. Meanwhile a competitive standard deck will be $500
The point is wizards says one thing and does anotner. They claim they want modern to be an accessible alternative to legacy that they intend to fully support but what have they really done in order to actually ensure that the format is accessible to people who haven't been collecting for 15 years? Modern Masters is a complete joke with all of the rarity bumping and the fact that it's being released every otheryear just feeds into the fact that wizards thinks they can give us whatever trash they want and as long as there are mythic goyfs in it, we'll be happy
Modern Masters exists, but people want more. The "more" is the problem, not limited reprints in themselves.
No, all stores would get fucked, as would players.
"Way too expensive" is a literally meaningless statement. The market doesn't care, and the market is sustainable.
>Also fucking cares that they spent 10$ on a card today they could get for 5$ in two years. Yea it would have saved you a bit to wait but wouldn't have been able to play with it.
Why would I play a game that actively doesn't respect the money I put into it? People would just exit the market and either play Magic with sharpies and paper or play a game from a company that actually has some sense.
Look at how hard Konami ran YGO into the ground.
>Most products people buy throughout their life will be thrown away or resold at a much lower value and they know that when they buy it.
And when there exists products that don't lose value, they have active incentive to hold them. There is generated utility that goes beyond the raw value of playing the game, thus driving primary sales and generating secondary value.
Its also worth noting that you brought up GW, who are literally a living example of what would happen if Wizards killed the secondary market. The sheer amount of nerd rage and value loss that would just be followed by $50-$100 4 card box sets would break the game.
Your "take home" price wouldn't be any lower, the value would just be transferred to Wizards rather than your local store.
>spend a hundred bucks on mtg >build three decks and get singles to spruce up several existing decks
>repeat about every other set release
>play kitchen table magic with friends, Commander, multiplayer, whateverthefuck
>lol mtg finance
I said "Playing the game" to highlight that there is significant added value that goes beyond tossing cardboard around. If everyone purely cared about "playing the game" they would just play EDH or sharpie on lands.
i think it's pointless discussing this. We probably agree anyway. More reprints mean cheaper cards. Cheaper cards means that stores who solely rely on MtG singles will earn a lot less.
The main difference is that I think WotC prime concern should be the players and you think their prime concern should be the people making money off the secondary market. I guess we can agree on disagreeing on this point.
I just make dexks out of cards my roommates' deck boxes. I have an Eldrazi black/blue deck and a green hydra deck currently. Hero's Bane, Nissa's Renewal, and tons of regenerate work solidly.
>You're argument about disincentive is kind of specious in that you're insisting that they would just mass reprint every staple all at once and then the value of everyone's collection is suddenly reduced to zero
It's not that specifically. The problem is if it becomes common acceptance that any valuable format staple will inevitably be reprinted.
If this is the case, then any cards that are valuable in the secondary market are not just volatile product, but outright toxic. If you know the market is going to be flooded then no resellers will want to buy that product (guaranteed loss), and they will all dump the stock they have as fast as possible.
But it's the hunt for valuable investment which drives the secondary market; without it there's no money to be made, so no reason to operate at all.
The price ceiling would drop dramatically, but without large resellers in the market, there would be no way to easily GET the cards you need to build a top deck. We would be thrown back to the days of having to crack boosters and trade locally to get the cards we need. This would be a boon to casual players perhaps, but would make it extremely difficult to access the competitive scene. Hell, if anything it might make the game MORE 'pay to win' because only rich players can afford masses of boosters necessary.
>GW, who are literally a living example of what would happen if Wizards killed the secondary market
How? 40k has a second hand market. GW also does not generally just stop producing models for currently active units in its supported armies.
And how will the price be the same if you only have to spend regular card prices for the cards you need. You are objectively paying far less.
However I would be interested to hear about how the secondary maket works in YGO which I know has a different reprint policy (though I am not aware of the details)
Could anyone enlighten us as to the way things work there? Very useful as a case study.
>Hell, if anything it might make the game MORE 'pay to win' because only rich players can afford masses of boosters necessary.
With all your supposed economics expertise you seriously don't think businesses would crop up to meet the demand for singles? After all, "there's money to be made"
> The main difference is that I think WotC prime concern should be the players and you think their prime concern should be the people making money off the secondary market.
No, you just don't seem to understand that everyone who actually plays Modern owns a Modern deck that they paid for, and that stores actually generate more value to players than they take. Turning Magic into the worlds most expensive LCG would literally create zero market value, but would actively screw over both players and stores.
People who do not own Modern decks and play Modern are not Modern players. Anyone who has a willingness to pay for Modern cards consistent with market rates is already a Modern player.
People who are waiting for things to get cheaper (not players) are going to be forever stuck because prices won't significantly drop, Wizards will simply transfer value from stores to primary sales. Cue Wizards = GW apocalypse, and everyone who is currently a player, as well as all supporting stores, will get fucked.
Its downright absurd to say if you just want to play the game you would write your own cards on blanks.
Having the proper cards in the decks is part of the experience of playing the game, people can want that without the other bullshit.
But since Wizards are constantly making new sets with some reprints, it's a futures market.
If staple cards become worthless, then a wholesale box could end up being worth LESS than it was purchased for within a few months.
Your assumption is still insanely flawed, cryptic command has seen several reprints and shops are still willing to buy and hold those because the demand is there. They're not jettisoning all of their copies because they are somehow going to infect the rest of their stock with reprint-itis and destroy their value. What your proposing to happen is simply wrong
But thats the point, there isn't "money to be made" outside of boosters and primary sales, which goes to Wizards.
Your "proposed solution" is literally the secondary market that exists. But with toxic assets and net negative card values, that secondary market dies.
>toxic assets and net negative card values
None of those things accurately describe any of the things we were discussing. Your ridiculous apocalyptic scenario would have to have every set wizards produces for a year be full to the brim of reprinted staples in order for the bottom to fall out of their value so hard that no stores would touch them
Cryptic is a rare in a poorly received premium set. People are proposing Magic: The LCG.
There are no toxic assets regardless of market rates because Wizards isn't reckless with reprints, but does do limited reprints to generate internal value and add a blip in supply. Nobody is saying this is an issue, and stuff like MM is a smart way forward.
The issues comes from the "Snapcaster should in every pack" idiots.
Cryptic Command has only been reprinted twice, hasn't it? And a lot of people would say that over a hundred dollars for a playset is still too high.
Modern Masters is Wizards' solution to the problem. Limited runs avoid market crash by reassuring resellers that the market will not be flooded, and that it will only happen only on occasion.
That's not to say Wizards are perfect. I don't think anyone would claim that printing goyf at Mythic was anything but a ploy to get players buying boosters in hope of that golden ticket reward.
>Snapcaster in every pack
No one is actually suggesting that. And if they are then who cares, they're retarded.
What wizards should do is introduce a Modern Core Set similar to modern masters, but with actual staples instead of focusing on "muh limited." These would ideally be like the M1X core sets in that they would be able to introduce new cards into Modern without having to ruin standard forever with them. And since it's a yearly release, if something doesn't get reprinted it's not two more years until it could realistically get a reprint
Goyf is a unique case, it holds both meme value, and it's a barrier to an entire deck archetype. Reprints only minimally affect Goyf because 1) people legitimately believe he's the best creature ever printed, and 2) for every one that is unpacked and the owner wants to build whatever, 4 more have to be unpacked and sold to net supply upwards.
Goyf has so much meme value that the "automatic 4 of" nature of it means that unpacked ones only minimally affect supply.
>What wizards should do is introduce a Modern Core Set similar to modern masters, but with actual staples
but that IS the nightmare scenario
If you've got Snapcasters in your store and Wizards announce they're going to reprint that bad boy EVERY YEAR it stays above, I dunno say $25, then you might as well dump every non-Standard card you own as fast as possible.
Wizards is doing some stupid bullshit about only rolling one set at a time into the time frame of modern masters. The first one was shards, then I guess they moved up to scars block but still no Goblin Guide reprint or really anything of consequence from Zendikar. Next will be Innistrad and Snapcaster will be mythic.
Part of the reason though is that wizards doesn't react at all to secondary market pricing and won't include a card in the set at the last minute because people "worked so hard on the limited environment" even though they included daybreak coronet for the express purpose of reprinting it with only one other aura in the set.
That would literally be the Magic LCG. I dunno if you've glanced at Standard prices lately, but they're nearing zero for anything that doesn't see eternal play. The EV of a standard pack is essentially ~$1-2, and it has to stay that way. Printing Modern like they do standard would literally cause the exact problems Ive been describing.
In other words, to make the set have "modern staples" like a core set, there literally would have to be a Snapcaster in every pack, otherwise you just have Modern Masters.
This is the weakness of Modern Masters as a solution, I suppose. Since only Modern players are going to buy the thing, the only people who might crack a Tarmogoyf are the same people who would spend $200+ to complete the playset.
Maybe if it was printed like the Expedition lands? Stick it in a new set release but not have it Standard Legal. That way it could get pulled in draft for its utility, but then immediately sold since the guy playing Limited has no interest in buying another 3.
The only reason it was worth a lot was because people would pay that much due to artificial scarcity. This sort of thing is what is called a "bubble," and bubbles tend to crash and burn
>won't save your local store
I was there. I remember Chronicles. I'd argue that the greater sin WotC committed was not overprinting, but failure to signal what they were doing so that prices could adjust more slowly and naturally. Having ridiculous secondary prices (and the air of value that it brings with it) is a double edged sword. It makes people excited and feel rich when they pack something desirable, but it also channels that value away from the company and players into toxic "speculators".
>Because no matter how much I spent on the game, the EV over time would always be negative.
The same is true of a cheeseburger, computer, or car, yet you still probably buy those. What you're forgetting about is the value you extract while it's depreciating, the enjoyment you get from playing it. MtG is a game, not a stock transaction. You could play all with proxies. I have played all with proxies. It's a hassle to make them, if you make them with a sharpie they are ugly and inconvenient, and some cards are cheap enough that if you print an overlay, the ink for the inkjet is worth more than the authentic card.
Still, if card prices for some older cards continue to rise, that and freeware software environments WILL replace a substantial amount of casual play. Wizards has always had to walk a tight rope to keep the collectors, players, and shops happy. Right now I think they are skewing too much for the shops and themselves, but that's just my opinion.
No, if people are willing to pay a given price on a sustainable market, that price is the market price. Do we need to go back to our Econ 102 supply and demand graphs? A market correction (or bubble, as you say) can only occur when something is propping a value up.
Having a thriving secondary market helps build and maintain your brand, and drives an environment that you do make money off of (WPN, limited, FNM, etc).
I have a question for all of the "Wizards needs to reprint heavily folks." What price should Wizards charge for your ideal cards, and what price do you think they would charge? Keep in mind that current card prices and WTP's are well within the healthy market rate.
> but it also channels that value away from the company and players into toxic "speculators"
Thats up to Wizards more than anything, and their current trend of reprints (MM, etc), seem to be well within their value capture preferences.
>What you're forgetting about is the value you extract while it's depreciating, the enjoyment you get from playing it
Which has zero bearing on whether or not I buy Modern staples or buy into Legacy. Standard legal rares average $.50-$3.00 if you want a cheap game, but since they rotate, there's no incentive to hold them regardless (they have a net negative yield over time irrespective of market value).
If all the utility that anyone could ever derive came from just playing the game, you could play limited every week for three years straight for around the cost of one Modern deck. Zero percent of that money or value would go to "Star City Jews" or the "cancerous speculators." So why the complaining?
>Many people, including myself, would seriously reconsider their commitment to the game if cards that were hard to get a hold off suddenly lost all their value.
Yeah man just look how hard yugioh is dying. Anti-scalping policies are sure to ruin the game!
You know it's bad when Konami of all fucking companys is better at reprints than WotC.
I have a stack of 1st ed ultra rares and secret rares from the early days of YGO (before you needed a magnifying glass and a tutorial to read each fucking card) that literally aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
Why would I want to buy tournament staples that will just be printed into the ground and worthless when I could buy literally anything else and not waste my money?
For all the "don't buy boosters they're a waste" whining we see, you would think positive EV would be a more understood concept.
>Why would I want to buy tournament staples that will just be printed into the ground and worthless when I could buy literally anything else and not waste my money?
Gosh, gee, I dunno, maybe because you want to actually play the fucking game in sanctioned events?
If you really want to make money from your cards, you do tournaments with cash prizes.
Otherwise get over it. In your life, you are going to spend money and have nothing to show for it.
>waaah, i can't hoard my cards forever! Why aren't my garbage old cards worth anything after 20 years???
If you're an actually smart investor you can scalp up important tournament cards that go meta and sell them for profit before Konami reprints or bans them. This means you can still make profit while Konami keeps the barrier of entry low and lets the average man play with what he wants, keeping the game accessible and alive.
Wizards is insane for catering to you fat neckbeards who do nothing but sit on their stockpiles of power 9 and jerk off in vintage all day
Games Workshop has a player-beneficial sales model, got it.
I don't care about "investing" I care about "not wasting my money on cards."
Ill ask this a different way, if theres one asset you can buy that will be worth more tomorrow than yesterday, and another that won't, why would you buy the latter?
You guys must love buying booster packs at Target on a regular basis for all the love of the game and primary market you have.
Let me simplify this a little bit. Given that you don't just play card with sharpies on basic lands, and actually buy on the primary market, that means that cards DO have an inherent value beyond the game itself.
You are literally "the investor cancer" that you think is "killing the game." The only distinction you make is that the value of Modern staples is beyond your WTP over Standard fodder, and that upsets you.
Wizards has an entire set of formats for people with your preferences, but Modern and Legacy aren't those formats.
>I want to waste money on games for children but not waste money on it
You're really in the wrong game, let alone board.
Just go buy gold or cars or some shit in real life if you want something to hold value forever, some people actually want to fucking build a deck and play with other human beings without paying a small mortgage for paper.
The only reason these cards hold any sort of value is because people actually play the game. In 50 years when Magic is dead these cards will be fucking worthless outside of the rare collector. I'll cut corners and scalp to make some easy money but I don't expect these things to hold their value for a lifetime, they're not fucking automobiles or real estate. There is a demand for vintage and modern, but $1000+ for any deck is fucking stupid. And the only reason people are against it is because they fell for the secondary market themselves and bought that shit at absorbent prices, and now are afraid to face the fact they just wasted a thousand dollars of useless cardboard. There is absolutely no argument for why this shit should be so expensive beyond the fact that Wizards doesn't want a small niche of neckbeards to cry. Half of the game should not be held ransom behind an arbitrary price barrier set by the secondary market.
Everything is a waste once you think about it for a second, the food you buy won't prevent your dumb ass from dropping dead in a few decades.
There's exactly one asset to buy if you want to play MTG in sanctioned events, there is no competition.
What does Games Workshop have to do with this?
And anything that is not rare or collectible will be worth less after you buy it. Either way its completely irrelevant because the people you are talking to don't buy them as investment assets but as things to play a game with.
You just come off as not understanding people doing things for any other reason than making money no matter how much you deny investing in cards.
I don't understand why mtg is the only hobby were people forget hobbies cost money and involve investment. Not only that but people can make actually money by winning, and can even get a job.
>now are afraid to face the fact they just wasted a thousand dollars of useless cardboard. There is absolutely no argument for why this shit should be so expensive beyond the fact that Wizards doesn't want a small niche of neckbeards to cry
Except for the fact that us "neckbeards" (Modern players) don't have to face anything, because the cards we bought and play with don't actively depreciate. Nobody is bitching but the people who are priced out of a premium format, the people who are priced out of a format are not Modern players, and are not Wizard's target market. Go play EDH or Limited.
>There's exactly one asset to buy if you want to play MTG in sanctioned events, there is no competition.
No, there are multiple, ranging across the secondary and primary market. Legacy, Modern, Standard, Limited, and EDH. All are very diverse with varying barriers to entry.
Tier 1 Modern decks ranging $1000 plus doesn't signal that the format is "too expensive," just that there are a large amount of players willing to pay the cost of entry.
>You just come off as not understanding people doing things for any other reason than making money no matter how much you deny investing in cards.
No, I completely understand why people do things, Im very well aware of formats like Limited, EDH, and Standard. I'm not "investing" in anything, Im a Modern player, and Modern is within my willingness to pay as a format. That doesn't make me "cancer" or a "neckbeard" any more than you're "cancer" for not being a player that supports the format.
You seem to think that the only people who benefit from costs not being low are "speculators," and that people who do not actively play in a format are "players." Both of these are straight up wrong.
Do you even play standard?
Big events dictate prices the most.
Jace from Origins has only recently crept his way into modern and there's also Hangarback who sees play only as a one-two of in affinity. Then we have standard-only cards like new Gideon, Den Protector or Raptor
>I only had to pay $80 in addition to the money I originally had to pay for the cards already in my collection to make an unplayable jank deck
I have an EDH deck that cost me £21 and a handful of cards from my collection. Total value is about $50. So far, it's doing insanely well.
Jace is a 4 of in Grixis control, and sees limited play in other Grixis decks.
Every other card you mentioned caps out at $15. Hell even the Commands range from $10-$15 and every one of those see huge Modern play
MtG like all hobbies costs money, unlike most hobbies it's pretty easy to have your cards pay for themselves by winning events.
In Khans/Fate standard I bought abzan control for around $200, I won several hundered dollars worth of IQ prizes and $50 of FNM prizes, then sold the rotating pieces for around $75 dollars.
It's really not hard if you don't suck shit at magic (basic counting skills needed).
>No, there are multiple
You don't seem to be even reading the posts at this point.
Not him, but in lol you could play top tier champs with best runes for free. I get why Legacy is expensive, but having standard and modern cost this much saddens me. I would love to play with my friends, but they cant afford either and I only have one tier 1,5 deck and two tier 3. It gets boring fast. We play comp Conquest doe, geting new sets for shared colection allows to play whatever you want.
As far as hobbies go, if you want to play near the top level, Magic is pretty cheap. A lot cheaper than really high quality golf clubs, guitar or similar shit. In that regard the prices are okay, especially if you aren't retarded and buy from SCG.
Where it fucking falls apart is in casual, of all places. People want to spend differing amounts of money on a game that you play, at best, two or three times a month. There's usually three or four guys with older collections that don't want to spend a lot on the game, a booster or two on occasion, at best.
Then there's two or three guys that spend a varying amount on a regular basis, most of the time between ten and twenty bucks, that still nets them enough new cards. Usually they don't buy singles though and only build through trading.
Then there's the two guys that just throw money at it, like there's no tomorrow. You know the guy. That dude that has eleven fucking EDH decks.
And then then there's that one faggot that aggressively buys singles to complete his decks.
I've seen way too any groups wither and die because of escalating expenditure, and switching formats usually only slows the process for a time.
And you don't seem to understand that if you "enjoy playing the game," even pure primary market Magic is one of the cheapest hobbies around. But no keep bitching about how expensive Modern is because every booster doesn't have a T1 staple in it.
If the few cards in each edition that actually see competitive play weren't drown in tons of blatant garbage, this problem wouldn't arise. WotC knows what they are doing, they've been knowing it for years, and they're not going to change as long as people keeps dumping money into their stuff.
Krenko Purphoros will do it on the cheap, as will my girlfriends Christmas present of the Meren precon and around 25 cheap cards from my collection. Last session she hosed a Gaddock Teeg player by deliberately overfilling her hand, dumping gribblies into the yard in discard and recurring Shriekmaw until she had enough experience to start pulling the big bads onto the field. She was one turn away from blowing an Avacyn/Iona softlock the fuck out.
There is nothing stopping them printing a Premium Deck Series: Just Straight Up Splinter Twin deck, they just don't.
>there is something wrong with the economy of this game
There definitely is, I'm selling out now because I'm sick of that and of Wizards' shit generally.
>If all the utility that anyone could ever derive came from just playing the game, you could play limited every week for three years straight for around the cost of one Modern deck. Zero percent of that money or value would go to "Star City Jews" or the "cancerous speculators." So why the complaining?
This is probably the dumbest thing you have said so far. "If you want to play modern why don't you just play limited lol". Wow really good argument.
Games are meant to be played. Go somewhere else if you want to try your luck with stock markets.
If they made MM yearly and made the average quality of cards better than the excuse of a set that was MM15 they could be the ones making money off of format staples. They simply choose not to because they want the cards to be super expensive, they even say that when explaining why they bump the rarity on cards like Goyf.
This is also why the amped up the standard rotation schedule. If cards are in standard for less time, that's more often people will have to buy cards to keep up with standard.
Standard is their money maker, so standard is all they care about, and as long as it sells, they don't even give a shit about the quality.
Its some bullshit deal with SCG
Wizards refuses to reprint, SCG makes money from those cards
SCG buys millions in boxes from wizards, and gets to host all the tournaments
They must own stock in each other's company, or at least boxes of power9 and duals
Hopefully, this will wreck their sales
Old players wont want the new crap and new players will realize how sucky the cards got and that standard costs $500
The only reason im even doing a pre-release is to open eldrazi and expeditions before they spike (thanks SCG)
If wizards printed goyf, lightning bolt, snapcaster, abrupt decay, and aether vial every year, can somebody explain why the ensuing price drop would be bad except, obviously, for the people who are sitting on a large number they wish to sell?
If the price drops, the demand will be higher, and they can make up the money they lose with increased sales of these singles
Isn't that economics 101? The store makes money by charging a little more than what they can get the cards for
If the cards are lower in value, they should be able to get more of them for less, offsetting the fact that they must sell them for a lower price, lower input lower output, same profit margins?
Where are you guys from? Where I live there exists no "MtG singels card shops". There are game shops that has all kinds of different card games, board games and roleplaying games. These shops will in no way need to close just because WotC would make meaningful reprints.
I am aware that some online shops that solely rely on the secondary magic market will have to reduce their size and maybe even close. But if they rely on the prices being ridiculously high I would rather see them close and the game being accessible to the players instead.
>A market correction (or bubble, as you say) can only occur when something is propping a value up.
Something like artificial scarcity, just as with the diamond markets you mean? Because artificially controlling the supply of a product is a method of propping the value up. For someone who likes to spew about that one econ class you took in college, you really do seem to fail to understand the points you yourself are making.
Wizards is helping to keep cards expensive artificially by not allowing more into the market, just as De Beer controls the value of diamonds by manipulating to number available in the market regardless of how many there actually are or could be. Auto manufacturers keep car prices high by coming out with 'new' models of their vehicles every year. There is nothing stoping WOTC, regardless of if it is intentional, is keeping the prices of staples in both legacy and modern artificially high by failing to reprint cards.
As to your other points about Local Game Stores dying: who the fuck actually cares? An LGS is not some benevolent entity that has descended from the heavens to give us a safe place to enjoy. They are a business, they are there to sell us cardboard. Beyond that, if their only source of income is MTG, then really they cannot complain if a change in the MTG market causes them to fail. The LGSs around me all have fairly diverse product bases. They make good money on MTg, but they also make a lot on table top rpgs (no secondary market there), comics (these have a secondary market, but most of the stores about here don't participate), and other things. For a few of them MTG isn't even considered a main source of income.
You are not an MTG player, you are wanna-be stock broker who decided to bet on card board. Stop acting like those of us that enjoy the game are ridiculous for thinking that our game would be more enjoyable if it was cheaper and allowed more people to play at an affordable rate.
>More relevant reprints per Standard legal set
Sure. I can get on board with that. His reasoning is solid in that it will hopefully get Modern and Legacy players interested in drafts and possibly even Standard that season. The problem, of course, is that many of the cards that would be relevant reprints for older formats are too strong for the powerlevel that Development currently wants the format to have.
It may be that Development is gonna have to back down on this, but let's see if Wizard can solve this puzzle without compromizing their vision for what Standard is supposed to be.
The problem with this is that it makes Standard harder to test for. R&D already fucks up from time to time, and this is while they have a fairly good idea of which decks will actually be good. Imagine how much worse it would be if there were several more playable cards in an average Standard legal set.
He is correct in his assessment that it would generally cause the entry price of Standard to lower. That is until we get another Affinity that you either have to play or be able to beat preboard to be able to compete because R&D missed it in playtesting.
Drafting Cube is completely different from drafting normally. I didn't build a Cube because I wanted the perfect limited environment. I did it because I wanted to play with broken cards. I would probably not be as excited about drafting normally if as many games came down to the ridicilous bullshit than often can happen in Cube.
And also, I'd like to point out that Cube theory - if such a thing can be said to exist - has moved on from being all "the best cards in Magic's hostory" and these days you will see many Cubes that in fact try to be the best limited format of all time, and many of these completely forego the idea of being about the objectively most broken cards of all time and instead are filled with roleplayers, archetype staples, and iffy cards that probably belong in your sideboard.
He's probably right. He probably has a much better understanding of casual players than me, and yeah, they probably have probably a harder time keeping up with Standard when it rotates more often. I mean, I feel like that thought probably struck me when they announced it.
The thing is, Wizards didn't speed up rotations because they thought it would make it easier for casual players to keep up, but because they thought it would make it harder for tournament players to solve the format.
Of course, I also feel like Wizards might have underestimated tournament players here. If the FFL could solve the format during playtesting, then the world's collected tournament players probably can solve the format within weeks of release.
They still release the same number of sets per year, so obviously they weren't hoping that this move would somehow move more product.
If people are indeed less interested in going to FNM because of the new Standard rotation then that is clearly an unfortunate side effect of something Wizards thought would be for the betterment of the game.