>>44737771 But Innistrad was fine. Dark Ascension was cards that couldn't fit into Innistrad. Avacyn Restored was terrible for limited but had some powerful constructed cards, including possibly the most powerful creature ever printed if cheated into play, Griselbrand.
>>44737771 Innistrad was one of the best sets of all time. Dark Ascension ruined the limited environment (which was also one of the best of all time), but had some fun and interesting constructed cards. Avacyn Restored was a steaming pile of shit that ruined every format it touched.
If they're going to force another color onto Elspeth, I imagine she'd become the only WR walker around since Ajani's calmed down, not WB.
They've already basically confirmed that no, she won't be coming back as any kind of undead because that's NOT HOW THE SPARK WORKS, and nothing about Elspeth responds to black, so it makes no sense at all to put that on her.
>>44737771 Avacyn. You don't win in gothic horror. You barely survive.
But since this is serialized storytelling the good guys cannot lose and the bad guys cannot be defeated permanently because we need to keep publishing more comics, or in this case, cards with a semblance of a storyline and "flavor" behind so that autisms will not realize it's just cardboard.
>>44742377 >Could walk planes and still couldn't protect anything she cared about >Spit roasted by titans, possibly literally as she is a mana construct >Trying to mac on a blue mage's waifu Certainly best angel and waifu nig. No contest.
Wait, people are hating on Innistrad now? You do realize it is rather high in being a fan favorite, right? It made classic horror tropes into fun cards. It created a great atmosphere for the game we haven't seen since Sengir, and even then Sengir was only black. This was a darker toned world with all colors available. It was a beautifully done world, even if the last set was kind of a let down compared to the first two. It was still better than say Morningtide. Or better yet Saviors.
>>44744605 >Winning Tarkir Nah Sarkhan pretty much fucked everyone that's not a dragon. The best they can hope for is kill that bitch Atarka and then Narset is going to wander away and meet up with Tamiyo because they have the same schitck.
>>44750528 Three of the clans aren't that bad to live in. Atarka will eat you and lightningmclightningface will forve you to go to war. B/U clan you just have to be somewhat obedient. The other two you can live in very peacefully.
Humans DID "barely survive." The angels are the only thing stopping human extinction, and they can't beat the monsters, just hold them back.
Innistrad is custom-designed to kill every living thing on it. Left to its own devices it will become a more woodsy version of Grixis, inhabited entirely by demons and the undead. Angels help it be a plane, with a struggle, not the curb-stomp gang-rape of humanity until there aren't any left.
It was also following up on two consecutive blocks where the forces of good got their shit pushed in by the bad guys, so it was kinda fucking nice not to see yet another storyline end with "and then the villains won and the planeswalkers legged it."
Was playing zombies 'cause... zombies. It was slow as fuck though. I'm still super new to MTG and haven't tried to make a deck on any sort of competitive level at all. It was fun at the local meet up, until cap'n "I must win at all costs even if it's a casual game" turned up and pissed everyone off.
>>44739274 >not feeling totally rushed. Battle for Zendikar is probably the wrong set to judge two set blocks in. It started as three sets like normal, then they came out and said "It has to be two set" so Maro and friends literally had to axe half their work and start over. It wasn't designed for two sets and you can still tell. Block one was Ulamog kicking ass then being temporarily stopped Block two was Kozilek making things worse. Block three was Gatewatch saving the day. But since they suddenly only had two to work on, they mashed 2 and 3 together.
The best time to judge the two block situation will be during/after SOI, which was made specifically for two block mode.
>>44751040 >B/U clan you just have to be somewhat obedient. You're not fully obedient and they make you a zombie. You're too competent and they eat you. Silumgar gets bored and see option A or B. UB is the shittiest clan still.
Ojutai is North Korea tier but doable if you like being in college your entire life surrounded by teachers that hate you. Dromoka is so communist that families are considered capitalist and are therefore banned. Don't worry though, Dromoka dragons will handle breeding contracts between humans. It'll only take a few generations before they realize they have to keep track of how related little fleshlings are or they come out broken.
>>44751050 Three consecutive blocks. Bolas won Alara and Zendikar. Phyrexian had an absolute victory on Mirrodin.
That said, Innistrad did have a balance for a long while, until Vampires were brought into existence as the Master-race of Innistrad and the elves got wiped out. Then Sorin bolstered the already existing natural angels with Avacyn and her host.
Yeah, it kinda looks to me like Vampires were a part of the demons' endgame for the plane. Introducing them to the ecosystem sorta sets off a chain reaction that eventually leads to everything except the demons and the angels dying in a cycle of hunting and bloodlust, and since angel blood is the key ingredient to the Markovs' vampire potion or whatever...
I always wondered if Sorin chose to enforce balance with angels because humans already knew the angels were on their side before he made Avacyn, or if he was atoning in his own way for the angel that was horribly murdered to give him his powers.
>>44752692 >Samefagging But I'll bite: Why wasn't he given a pat on the back? Because double-faced card were fun. Awkward as hell, but fun. People don't leave Wizards alone about wanting to see more of them. And we've gotten more of them in Origins, and will probably be getting more later this year when SOI begins. And people can't wait.
Personally the issue with Innistrad is that we wanted Gothic horror for all 3 sets, and instead went from Gothic horror in INN to "we're 2 seconds away from the plane getting permafucked for the third storyline in a row" in Dark Ascension to "lol nvm Avacyn's back and fixed the werewolves curse and all the angels are back" victory.
And the only reason we had a win was because Liliana blew up the demon prison so she could BTFO Griselbrand and peace out of the plane, while Sorin did literal jack shit and Garruk got mind raped into going evil.
If it was me writing the story for SOI block, I would have it be that the moon is causing all the twisted shit and changes to the plane, because the moon is Nahiri's stasis hedron and she's waking up, and is fucking pissed at Sorin about Zendikar after she planeswalks to it and sees how fucked it is.
>>44752763 But they were and are shit. Maybe they were fun, but they just feel so terribly implemented that I personally can't have fun with them. I can see how people would like them. I like the idea of them, I just wish there was a better way to implement them. >>44754575 Double-faced cards are literally my only issue. I even liked AVR. Sue me.
I first started the game in the midst of Odyssey, Torment, Judgment. It was fucking weird. Blue was trying to mill itself out, black was killing itself, red was gambling it's entire board. Green and white were the only sane looking options to my young brain, so I played it safe.
Innistrad is like all that but with training wheels and fewer horrific consequences. It was a step forward in creating sets with a coherent theme that didn't sacrifice functionality or parasitism.
>>44757485 >Maybe they should rather have mashed 1 and 2 together? That would have made so much more sense. >Ulamog is here! >Must find way to stop Ulamog! >Oh no, Kozilek's here too! >Hedron Array, go! >I'm Ob Nixilis, and I love fucking shit up! End Battle For Zendikar, Oath is about the quest to figure out how to kill the eldrazi with hedrons and ghost fire.
>>44744268 >>44751050 Let's not forget that Innistrad was never originally intended to end with "suddenly, angels" in the first place.
The original idea was to do a single standalone gothic horror set, and a two-set block about angels and shit. Then they realized they'd really want to do the gothic horror set in the fall to coincide with Halloween, but it would be totally weird and unprecedented to start a new story block with a large set in winter right after an unrelated large fall set. So they were going to expand the gothic horror segment into a two-set block, and do a standalone large set with the angel stuff. Then they ultimately decided to just smash it all together into a single large/small/large block, giving us what we now know as Innistrad block.
>>44765939 What did he even do during Innistrad block? Liliana actually fixed the problem; as far as I can tell, Sorin just showed up, yelled at some vampires, fought Tibalt for no reason, then fucked off to look for Ugin.
>>44768838 The story of Theros: >we're on theros now >kill a hydra >speth ur my champion now >oh no minotaurs are attacking >we killed the minotaurs, party now >we partied so hard Xenagos is now Xenagod >gods are angry the plebs let this happen >attack them with sparkly animals >Ellie and aggie go to the stars to stab Xenagos >kill him >Heliod kills Elspeth becuse he's scared of the God killing sword HE GAVE her >ajani goes full fedora
The humans survived, the villain got defeated and ajani is turning the population against Heliod.
>>44769031 Eh, is there ever really a villain in greek mythology?
One myth can have three different gods conspiring to fuck up a single mortal because she saw one of them naked, and their retaliation could involve that mortal being raped, becoming suicidal, and killing her babies and I still won't know whose side I am supposed to be on.
>>44768995 Why hasn't Heliod tried to kill Ajani yet? He fucking saw him kill Elspeth for fuck's sakes, and his spear can apparently hit anywhere. Is he just that smug that he doesn't give a fuck, or what?
>>44770475 Elspeth had just gone through hell, got her ass beat by a god and was in the place gods are most powerful, and the last time he tried to smite a planeswalker on Theros they just acted like nothing happened.
The reason thing s look good on paper is because they are not fleshed out. There are no full ideas behind them which allows the reader to supplement in their own thoughts.
People got hyped up at what COULD have been. Instead of going interesting WotC went with very safe generic representations of everything. Almost like a checklist. They made sure it was all in but didn't really do anything with it.
At that point all that mattered was the cards. Here to they dropped the ball most cards felt very "Yeah that's what that would be." With nothing interesting. Werewolfs also contributed a lot to this problem because the IDEA was good but the implementation was not. This was likely from WotC being scared as they always are of new untested mechanics. They have a history of over evaluating or under evaluating mechanics which gets them in trouble. They nerf things that did not need a nerf because they wrongly thought it would break the game then ignore things that in fact were a problem.
This is why Avacyn was well liked and remembered because she had story to her with neat ideas and on top of that she had a powerful interesting effect.
>>44768929 According to Maro, it was less ghostfire was too strong for standard, and more Everything colorless this set that shouldn't be is eldrazi." and ghostfire would stand out as weird in a "What do you mean it's not an eldrazi spell" way.
>>44774022 >ghostfire was too strong for standard I feel like if a 3-cmc lightning bolt is too strong for standard, WotC needs to seriously reevaluate the powerlevel of standard.
Like, they use this excuse all the goddamn time, and most of it is complete bullshit. Like, LotV in standard with delve I can completely understand and agree with the decision to pull her, but fucking Ghostfire? really?
>>44777666 Pretty much. All while Ajani watched helplessly. One god needed her to kill another god but also didn't want anybody else to know that you can kill gods in the first place. Still less of a dick move than vast majority of actual Greek mythology. nice repeating digits
Purphoros made the sword, iirc, to kill HELIOD with, but Heliod knocked it out of Nyx before Kruphix broke it up and forced Purphoros to stop. Elspeth picked up the sword the first time she came to Theros and it became her weapon of choice.
On her block visit to Theros, the sword's power awakened and it became Godsend, which Elspeth used to kill Xenagod.
Heliod became keenly aware when the threat had passed that Elspeth had already been about as powerful as he was and now had a god-killing weapon, and he hadn't been very nice to her up to that point.
Out of jealousy and paranoia over Elspeth's power challenging his own, Heliod betrayed her and struck her down while she was exhausted from defeating Xenagos.
Ajani has remained on Theros, desiring justice for his friend's betrayal and murder and exposing Heliod's true nature to Theros as a whole.
>>44777984 >Why do people hate Theros so much? It's Enchantment set and WotC couldn't do Enchantments right since Urza's block. And it's the first set where >muh progressive agenda started showing at full force.
Born of the Gods is one of the weaker sets they've done, so that wasn't good. A lot of people didn't like the mechanics and felt the set betrayed the hope of an enchantment block by being focused entirely on auras until the third set (most people don't like auras), introduced an interesting villain and then immediately killed him off, killed off Elspeth purely so the set wouldn't have a happy ending (continuing the trend of "Elspeth does the right thing and gets punished for it" while Jace seems to stumble from one improvised and highly unlikely success to the next).
There might've been other reasons, but I think those are the main ones. People really didn't care for Theros mechanically.
>>44778098 He's succeeded once and even that he regrets he's fucked up every time he's ever shown up in the lore other than Ravnica. Though you are totally right about the Elspeth thing. Though that's why she's the best and probably most powerful neowalker.
>>44778098 >People really didn't care for Theros mechanically. This is the only complaint I can really understand. Tribute sucks because you'll never get the one you want. It's win-more or it's lose-more. Doesn't get you out of a tight spot. Constellation is okay, but not great. Most of the time it's just forcing yourself to remember triggered effects that don't matter and don't help. Bestow is just weird. They're really expensive, have unrelated effects that don't do much and it's rare to find a spot for them in any deck, even an enchantment deck. Heroic is alright, probably my favorite one. It's easily the most interactive. I only wish it included opponents spells as well. Isn't overcoming what your opponent throws at you more heroic than anything? Gods and Devotion make so much sense I'm actually surprised they weren't printed before they were. No complaints here. Monstrosity is terrible. Overcosted creatures with overcosted single-use abilities. So what, two decent ones? And one is only on less than a dozen cards.
>>44778320 I will always love Kamigawa for having a black protagonist and white antagonist. WotC loves to insist that black isn't evil and white isn't good, yet the only black protagonist they've had since then (Sorin) was also conveniently color-shifted into black/white at the same time.
>>44778533 Tribute is shit, and probably one of the worst mechanics in recent memory. Constellation is a good idea, but it didn't show up until the third set, and there's only like 2 good cards with it Bestow I actually really like, but like Constellation there just aren't that many good cards that use it Heroic is cool in theory, but it relies on you filling your deck with bard cards to trigger it, and it just doesn't live up to the potential. Gods are cool, devotion was printed before, they just changed the name and tweaked how it works Monstrosity is terrible, I agree.
The whole block was just incredibly poorly thought out mechanically. They went all in on auras, and ended up making everything frustratingly parasitic and low powered just to make the theme work.
>>44780346 well sure. pushed cards like Stormbreath Dragon can make even the worst mechanics look decent. The problem I have with monstrosity isn't that it isn't strong, it's that it's incredibly boring, and it can get really confusing real quick if you have other ways of putting +1/+1 counters on creatures.
>>44778213 I think Elspeth deserves a hug at this point. How bad has her life been so far?
>Grew up as a Phyrexians slave/toy >Finally got her Spark and spent more time running. >Finally finds a home and becomes a KNIGHT, only to have it taken by FUCKING PHYREXIANS. >Loses a few friends fighting said Phyrexians. >Loses more new Planeswalkers' friends while still fighting Phyrexians >Gets to Theros where she has to kill a fukehueg Hydra to prove herself to an asshole God >Finally gets the chance to settle down and be happy, just to be put into a trance and kill her lover. >Gets it rubbed in her face when going to kill the god that made her do it, because another god is a dick. >Kills a the Planeswalker god in a giant fight with the help of her friend Simba. (Giving us one of the coolest Ench. Removal cards in the game) >Gets literally stabbed in the back by the god she was serving with her own sword because there's a chance she *might* turn against him. >Dying wish can't come true because Daxos is already a returned.
INN INN INN was one of the best limited environments in modern magic.
INN INN DKA was still pretty good. DKA didn't add a whole lot to the existing archetypes, but it coasted on the coattails of triple INN hard enough to still be a lot of fun.
AVR AVR AVR was very low on removal and resulted in an imbalanced limited environment. I actually enjoyed it but totally understand why it was so hated.
From a constructed standpoint, Innistrad introduced a number of cross format all stars. Snapcaster, Delver, Liliana and Geist all saw quite a bit of play in everything. It also introduced a ton of cute build around me cards in Laboratory Maniac, Mirror-Mad Phantasm, Tree of Redemption etc...
Dark Ascension produced far less eternal staples but led to some sweet tribal decks for casual play (Captains), Huntmaster and Lingering Souls saw a bunch of Modern play and I THINK Falkenrath Aristocrat might have been a replacement for BBE in Jund for a little bit but it didn't last.
AVR brought us Legacy Miracles in Entreat the Angels and Terminus, Restoration Angel, Griselbrand, and a couple of fringe cards like Slayer's Stronghold (in Amulet Bloom) and Desolate Lighthouse (mostly in Twin).
The standard environment at the time was pretty great up until Thragtusk took over everything a little after M13 released.
>>44783944 I think DKA wouldn't have been so frustrating had the DKA pack been drafted after the INN packs. Flipping the draft order fucked a big part of what made triple INN so fun: fringe draft archetypes like spider spawning and burning vengeance. It also didn't help that aside from a couple broken standouts like Lingering Souls, the overall power level of DKA was noticeably lower than INN. DKA just made the limited environment feel bad.
>>44783651 Not so much Phyrexians, It was zombies hat she helped beat back into Grixis. Lets never forget that she lived in the ruins of Urborg. Wasn't even stabbed in the back she gave Godsend to Heliod to prove her loyalty and he picked it up and stabbed her at least it turned back into a sword as he broke the staff.
>>44737771 The whole gothic theme should have matched the mtg setting, however they made it way too polished looking to make sense at first. It just felt like a completely different universe, didn't match the original fantasy identity of magic seen in dominaria or mirrodin. However I think later on it did make more sense.
>>44777533 Ghostfire ISN'T too strong for standard, and that's never been said by anyone at Wizards. The only problem with Ghostfire is that it's Not An Eldrazi Thing, so it doesn't make sense in the set. And they couldn't fit it in Tarkir for some reason despite having it be a part of the Jeskai teachings and something Ugin is famous for - I think it got cut for numbers there or something? Not sure.
>AVR brought us Legacy Miracles in Entreat the Angels and Terminus, Restoration Angel, Griselbrand Literally all of those cards are cancer, the only one which is even a close call is grizelB. The only thing avacyn restored has going for it in design is powerlevel. Putting value on sets due to them 'having eternal staples' is blind; I like innistrad but delver and snapcaster are not the reasons (not to say I hate them, they're fine). I understand that people are pissed that wizards are lowering the powerlevel (and I agree that they shouldn't be with such speed or extremity) but unless people are specifically attacking a block for being underpowered, the first defense should not be 'it had powerful cards', it's not difficult to make powerful cards.
>>44784904 You kind of touch on something that I think is part of the problem with AVR's power compared to INN's power. Innistrad had powerful cards, but they're more narrow than AVR's powerful cards. Liliana of the Veil is incredibly powerful, but you really need to build your deck to break her +1's symmetry to get the most of it. Delver is stupid, but it imposes serious deckbuilding restrictions. AVR on the other hand has cards like Resto Angel, which is good in any deck with other creatures, or Grislebrand which is one of the two strongest creatures ever printed. You could argue that the miracles require deck manipulation to fully take advantage of, but even if you just randomly topdeck them they typically represent incredible value.
>>44780346 You know it didn't seem that great until I ignored the monstrosity bit and thought of it as a vanilla 4/4 with flying, haste, and protection. Then I can see it. Maybe in EDH paying that exorbitant monstrous cost is viable? Would certainly be funny against the spellslinger decks with half their library in hand.
>>44751999 Don't worry. You can trust Friend Dromoka. Friend Dromoka only has what is in your best interests at heart. Friend Dromoka found out about that little problem, so now all the little fleshlings get sent to random cities. Remember, report any REBEL NECRO TRAITORS to Friend Dromoka for termination. Failure to report REBEL NECRO TRAITORS is grounds for termination.
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