Does the average chapter have to rigidly adhere to having a 1000

>>44718409
Most chapter hover around plus or minus 100 I think.

>>44718409
Not rigidly, just around that number to ensure no one chapter master is having direct command and interaction with to many marines in case he becomes corrupted.

If the Chaptee is a bunch of rules lawyering faggots, that 1000-marine rule technically only includes infantry, not tank crews, pilots, or support units like Apothecaries or Librarians. So a chapter that wanted to be both overstrength and codex compliant could request a shitload of Rhinos, Preds, fighters, and other vehicles and shove all their excess into drivers and support types.

>>44718409
>Does the average chapter have to rigidly adhere to having a 1000 marines?

Yes, though 1000 is not a hard limit, and Chapters can swell in size when on crusade and the like. Also the tenth company has no formal size and can be as large as the Chapter Master desires.

>>44718708
Could they really get away with a chapter of hundreds of scouts?

>>44718734
Technically.

>>44718547
The pilots are technically 7th company, as mentioned in the new codex.

>>44718936
What are tactical marines doing piloting vehicles? I thought it was junior techmarines in charge.

>>44718734
Exorcists and Black Templars do.

>>44718734

Yes. Scouts are your lifeblood.

>>44719248
all marines need to know how to pilot all the ships in the armory in case there are significant chapter losses.

therefore tactical marine duties include vehicle duties.

though i dont know why they wouldnt use the scouts, devestators, or assault companies to teach about combat vehicles.

also im pretty sure 2nd/1st company is in charge of the battlebarges and other large marine ships.

>>44718734
70% of the black templars are "scouts" they just arnt used as scouts. but rather as a marine "levee" of sorts that they can call on for any task that requires bodies.

yes this is breaking the rules, but they are effective and stable enough that they basically get a free pass for loving the emperor so much.

>>44721170
I know - you'd think a devastator would serve as a side gunner, since it's often a type of heavy weapon they'd use anyway, an assault marine as a driver to teach them how to get into the thick of the combat at speed without risking the vehicle and crew, and a tactical marine as an overall commander. A scout could serve as the guy reading the auspex.

>>44721372
>>44721170
>>44719248
>In the same fashion, all Space Marines of the 7th Company are trained pilots, able to crew skimming Land Speeders as well as the swift, heavily armed Space Marine gunships. Most Chapters’ armouries do not include sufficient craft for the whole 7th Company to take to the field as pilots. However, this secondary specialism ensures that the Space Marines never lack for competent air crews.

So Thunderhawks are still flown by Techmarines, but all the smaller craft are 7th company.

>>44721470
Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Thunderhawks are classified as gunships.

>>44721470
But I thought it was a unique thing that the Ravenwing chose their own pilots to fly their aircraft, instead of letting techmarines do it.

>>44718409
Generally, the 1000 limit applies to their standard infantry. it does not include: the command units, honor guard, vehicle drivers, pilots, chaplains, librarians, apothecaries, techmarines, or any special units (i.e. dreadnaughts) associated with the chapter.

when you add them all together, I tend to think of a Codex Chapter as having about 2000 brothers, and for the non-Codex Chapters to have 3000 or more.

>>44724149
small example: if you send a standard Tactical Squad in a Rhino, the driver isn't -part- of the squad. He remains with his vehicle, and uses it to support the squad.

I don't know if he's just a standard Battle-Brother who just loves to drive a tank or a low-ranking Techmarine though.

>>44724149

The 1000 limit counts the first 100 scouts.

>>44719248
Tactical marines have basically done everything except fight in termie armour by the time they are assigned to tactical squads. They've been scounts, driven vehicles, served in devastator squads and fought in assault squads.

Some chapters deviate from this (like Space wolves having veteran scouts and new guy assault squads in power armour) but for most codex chapter, a tactical marine is someone who can be assigned to pretty much any task.

>>44721170
Tactical marines have served as devastators, assault marines, vehicle crewmen and scouts already. Since a codex chapter is tiny with only about a thousand guys, it's important (and sensible) that the majority of the available marines can fill any position.

It makes no sense for Astartes to operate any vehicle. It's a tremendous waste of resources; superhumans aren't built to sit on their asses during combat. Hell, serfs would be infinitely better for the role.

>>44718409
Any non-codex chapter can try to be overstrength, but generally only the most honored and devout chapters can successfully avoid too much scrutiny.

>>44721470
Nowhere does it say thunderhaks are flown by techmarines. Thunderhawks are flown by actual pilots.

>>44718734
The Exorcists do it by default. IIRC they have 3 scout companies, with no limit to the number of scouts in each. They do this because part of becoming a Battle Brother for them is being possessed and then exorcising the demon by sheer will, so obviously attrition is high.

>>44726557
nope, read more

>>44722598
I think Ravenwing will be an exception because of the Inner Circle requirement hence no Techmarines

>>44721212
Black Templar get by the limit because they've been on an endless crusade since they were conceived. They took the rule from the codex that said crusading chapters can surpass the limit and just rolled with it for 10 thousand years.

>>44718409
I like to believe that there's no such thing as an average Chapter of Space Marines.

Are scouts part of that 1000 limit?

>>44726534
>Hell, serfs would be infinitely better for the role.

Except not. Marines are superior mentally and physically and can operate the vehicle better.

So lets say a chapter wanted to get as big as possible by exploiting the rules but not actually breaking them.

Donate one company worth to the Trader and Navigator dynasties at all time thus removing them from the 1,000 numbers cap.

Keep one company worth on permenant loan to the Deathwatch and individual inquisitors.

Donate a company to act as body guards to Magi on Explorator fleets thus earning mad happy points with the cog-bros.

Use those happy points to get a disproportionate number of marines trained as tech-marines. Thus freeing up an additional 40 or 50 places.

Train up an extra 50 Chaplains and Apothecaries.

Specialize in warfare that requires vehicles. If you can get a motor pool of 200 vehicles, each needing a driver, then you got two companies of marines.

Engineer a tradition of pilgrimage and get one of the more respected philosopher-chaplains to write that it is expected, though not actually obligatory, for marines to go on pilgrimage to one of the holy sites at least once in their life. Marines on pilgrimage aren't on the men-at-arms list and so don't count towards the numbers cap.

Get a 2nd scout company. One for newbs and one for old gits that are master sneaky gits. Scouts don't count towards the numbers cap.

We are looking at 800 additional marines scattered about.

Even if the entire chapter got wiped out, its home world burned and its fortress destroyed there would be more than enough unofficial marines to start over again once they get back together.

Can anyone think of an additional way the rules could be exploited?

>>44727707
how about a "median" chapter?

>>44728466
I assume any such Chapter would be purely hypothetical.

>>44728450
Starting an endless crusade, having a fucked up geneseed, or just not giving a fuck about the codex and scattering your forces so much that nobody can count them well with the poor bureaucracy of the Administratum. Gather them together for big shit and then scatter when done.

>>44728450
Isn't the cap removed while crusading? Can that apply to less than an entire chapter?

Maybe assign individual marines to assist the Arbites on various worlds?

>>44727707
>>44728466
I'm inclined to think that any group can be considered to have an average of some sort (probably the Ultramarines in this case, if only by weight of successor chapters), but the standard deviation of Marine chapters is pretty huge.

>>44728536
>>44728532
So scatter a company worth of marines to help with the underhive problems of the nearest few hive-worlds. Space Marine Judge Dredds.

Endless crusade could bring chapter numbers down if the attrition gets to high.

Perhaps go on mass recruitment drive on every world around the hives the Judge Mariens got sent to.

Only problem I can see is that they would then appear big on official papers rather than being unofficially big. That could draw attention to the whole potential Legion building thing.

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>>44718409

>Splinter into different chapters.
>Each chapter dedicated and specialized into a single aspect of warfare
>Chapter Masters keep in contact with one another.
>Always deploy together for combined arms warfare.
>MFW you're legion strength but the Inquisition too busy chasing wolf furries from figuring out.

>>44726534
This guy

The only reason astartes rides vehicles is because they wanted BS4 on space marine vehicles.
logically its stupid that precious astartes to be used just to drive a tank.

>>44728236
And how does their superiority work when you use a visor display and vehicular sensor arrays?
do you think using a remote military drone need a superhuman to hit terrorist targets? you just need to know how the machine works.

Marines probably know how to use a rhino but they would let the serfs(which are also semi-astartes/failed astartes) do it, serfs are also probably BS4 just like scouts.

>>44728622
Nobody knows how many are in the black templar because they are on the massive ships all across the galaxy fighting everywhere. They're a well known 2nd founding chapter and no one knows how many there are at any given time because they recruit from everywhere their crusade-ships go. It doesn't even matter because they are technically following the codex's only mandatory rules with the whole endless crusade thing.

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>>44729518

>>44729509
A serf in a Rhino will stuck it in mud like every jarhead has done in history.
A marine in a Rhino will make stunts like the mother fucking Jason Statham in Transporter.

>>44729812
I feel like this is out of date. And I thought there was something in the armageddon crusade stories that said that there were a lot more than standard chapter strength.

So does the Imperium just turn a blind eye to the space wolves? I get being a first founding chapter carries a lot of weight but I'm honestly surprised they haven't been smacked down by the Administratium

>>44729812
>>44729957
Wait I'm retarded. I didn't even look at all the numbers on there.

Still I don't think that the imperial administratum knows the numbers.

>>44729973
Well, they are pretty strong, they just can't make successors so they are allowed about 3 times the normal amount of marines.

>>44729927
So If an Astartes would ride an abrams he would make it flip backwards?
That makes...0 sense.

How is it possible that you can over-rule the physical limitations of a machine with your own skills? Its like saying if you make a fighter-jet pilot drive a car from 1910's it would go over the sound barrier.

Astartes are not Orks.
*Silently talks to himself*Although Blood Angels do have faster vehicles.

>>44728450
Hmmm, I like this idea, anyone else have any ideas for this?

>>44729984
Orka Admintaaagh reports clearly states that there are exactly "LOTZ" of Crusadin Humies around da galaxi

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>>44729509
>>And how does their superiority work when you use a visor display and vehicular sensor arrays?

>far, FAR superior reflexes while driving
>the ability to plan the best routes and maneuvers far quicker than any human pilot
>reading all the displays and HUDs and shit in a nanosecond so they can keep track of the vehicle's functions without getting distracted from the fight
>tank's autoloader broke? just cram the huge artillery shells into the cannon with one hand, while keeping on driving
>tank is disabled? go out and kill shit so that the very expensive Land Raider doesn't get stolen by orks

give a Marine pilot duties and you're basically cramming the equivalent of a veteran tank crew AND a skilled fighting platoon, into a single cockpit.

>>44730004
>>So If an Astartes would ride an abrams he would make it flip backwards?
>>That makes...0 sense.

>be 21st century 'murican commander stationed in some middle eastern shithole
>these two huge dudes in colorful armor show up
>the most blinged out of the two, I assume it's their captain or some shit, asks to borrow one of our Abrams to "aid them in eradicating the local Chaos cult"
>ask what the hell does he mean, he points at an ISIS camp a couple miles away and starts ranting about heresy, emperors, crazy motherfuckers that worship corn, shit like that
>nope, I'm not lending a tank to an obvious lunatic, even if he is huge
>suddenly I notice his subordinate went away during our conversation, and he's currently powerlifting a Bradley
>I'm lending a tank to the obvious lunatic, hail the emperor and whatever
>mfw two days later I'm getting reports of an Abrams doing 360 noscopes while falling off cliffs, obliterating ragheads half a click away with impeccable accuracy and sticking perfect landings every time

>>44730004
>*asterisk actions*
Stop that.

>>44730935
>Squad of Astartes show up in ME in some American base
>Within the week every soldier there is a member of the Imperial cult and there is growing support for an Imperial Party back home.

>>44730004
>*Silently talks to himself*

Are you autistic?

>>44731007
Real talk though, how successful would a composite squad of Astartes (some tacs, a devastator or two, an assault marine or two, a chaplain, apothecary, and tech marine) do in the modern world, how would they deal with living in an era without the emperor (or he's in hiding), and how quickly would the Chaplain convert normal humans?

>>44731061
add a librarian for miracles and the answer be all

>>44729991
I believe it maxes out at 2500, since we know the exact counts for the two largest Great Companies are 200 and 198 respectively.

>>44731061
Unless they were at ground zero of a fucking nuke, none of our weapons would be able to harm them, so they could do literally whatever they wanted.

>>44731007
>>44730935
I think SMs would join the mudslimes, since they are ones about screaming about a sky god.

>>44730945
>>44731039
*rolls his cock 360 while slapping your butt*Nope.

>>44732793
>all gods are equivalent
>implying all the abrahamics don't have sky magicians

*teleports behind you*
*unzips dick*
Nothin personnell... Kid...
*blade twitches*
*every tree and building within 100 feet suddenly vaporizes*
*every woman's clothes fall off*
*with a sickening slurp, your body falls apart*
heh... too easy... such a shame that you had to... get on my dark side...

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>>44732793
Space Marines, with a few exceptions, don't see the Emperor as a god.

They would side with the more reasonable and stable faction because stable worlds are better for the Imperium.

>>44733037
>Space Marines, with a few exceptions, don't see the Emperor as a god.
Don't tell that to the Chaplains.

>>44733079
It's the chaplains who are responsible for that.

They have their own chapter specific faiths.

In Legion of the Damned book the leader of the marines goes on a bit of a rant about it.

It's one of the big reasons the Sisters and Astartes don't get along.

>>44733214
Okay, so it depends on the Chapter.

If Black Templars land on M2 earth then they support mudslimes.
If Iron Hands land then they support the Western Nigger Lovers(aka US marines).

>>44733344
The Black Templars would side with the correctly appointed Imperial official. Possibly this would be USA or Russia as both are big and militaristic and both have eagles in their iconography.

Do the rag heads have eagles? No.

>>44733537
But what if they had a "Red Son" syndrome.

They crash land at arab land and make contact with arabs, learn about earth from their viewpoint.
Their corrupt rituals would probably raise an eyebrow though.

Most Chapter would probably pose the question "Accept Emperor or die." to all parties. Which all would say yes, after a "little" show of force. Say....orbital bombardment on new york.

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>>44729518
>>44729957
Black Templars numbers were retconed to be barely above 1000.

>>44730004
Because they can control every gun, drive in the most optimal way, plan ahead and communicate with every SM present in the battle simultaneously. Plus much greater chance of survival, operating at full efficiency no matter the situation and if their tank is destroyed you have a new SM ready to do SM things.

>>44731061
If they go about it sensibly, commandeering vehicles and aircraft to do critical hit and runs and recruit normal people to their cause, they could cause serious problems. If they just went around shooting shit, they would be killed relatively quickly. They are impervious to small arms fire, but even SM armor can't survive constant missile barrages from CAS.

>>44732793
They would support either the US, China or Russia probably. Getting the planet under a single ruler that is loyal to the Imperium is a priority, indoctrination to the Imperial Cult can come later.

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>>44733716
>SMs land among worshippers of a war god that get their strength by constantly yelling the name of their deity, and gruesomely behead their prisoners

BROTHERS, OUR DEEP STRIKE PLACED US AMIDST A KHORNATE CULT

TODAY, WE PURGE

>>44733838
>Black Templars numbers were retconed to be barely above 1000.

You're shitting me, right?
This can not be fucking serious. One of the big selling points of the BTs was that they just carried on as if the Great Crusade never finished. They were the badasses who took a lok at the codex and decided they didn't want to join and then defied Primarchs on the matter.

That is bullshit.

Before they were at 6,000 - 9,000 spread across the whole Imperium in numbers of 50 - 200. They were the Last Legion.

What the fuck is this new shit and how can we make it go away?

>>44733936
>What the fuck is this new shit and how can we make it go away?

The latest fluff was actually written by Black Templars. The Inquisition was starting to raise a few eyebrows about their numbers, so they wrote down some bullshit to make them shut up.

>>44733879

That is what they do to heretics. Carry on ISIS! Destroy the religious icons!

>>44733838
>Because they can control every gun, drive in the most optimal way, plan ahead and communicate with every SM present in the battle simultaneously. Plus much greater chance of survival, operating at full efficiency no matter the situation and if their tank is destroyed you have a new SM ready to do SM things.
If they have the numbers like BTs or Ultras. Otherwise its a waste of manpower if you dont have a bazillion SMs for all tasks.
I can understand LRaiders and Thunderhawks since they're basicly mobile fortresses but a rhino? A damn rhino? The cowards, the fools! With a mere Front of 11. Even lame walkers of IG(whatever they were called) has 10 Front or something. I cant think of why would a marine drive a rhino just to get blown in the first 5 seconds of combat.
And considering you would be hit by lascanons or plasmacannons there could be even driver-casualties.
Training for years under the harshest conditions just to get killed driving a rhino in your first combat.

"Guys, guys Ive made past scout."
"Well done brother, now drive this rhino here."
"Um, okay. For the Emperor right?"
"Yea, yea whatever."
>Gets blown in 5 secs

>>44730041
Kek

>>44733936
They still do all that. They just do it now in numbers of 10 to 50 per engagement, for a total of around 1200 to 1500 not including support staff. As Guy Haley has explained on his blog, this was not a decision by any writer but a mandate by GW corporate. That Black Templar didn't have their own codex anymore, and so they were to be made as codex as possible to fit in. The same thing happened to the Iron Hands, though in a different way.

>>44734216
>Using TT stats
And now you're an idiot.

>>44734462
Bullshit. I need sources now. They didn't say shit about this in the 6e codex. Does the 7e codex say anything? All I remember is that the BT section was disappointingly short.

>>44734485
Whats wrong with TT stats, this stupid lore is a cover for the game so its a framework to be worked with.

>>44734708
https://guyhaley.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/im-baaaacccckkk/#comments

Starting with the post by Lord of the Night.

"...the number of Black Templars has now become just over a thousand, sometimes more, sometimes less. It’s a change in the lore. In order to accommodate the older mentions I have their numbers being more flexible than that of other chapters, but not to such extremes as in the past."

"Well, I understand it is a company decision, not the decision of the codex writers. They could just about manage that number of crusades, as some of them are very small, a squad or two. As you’ll discover later. I am writing a lot of Black Templar fiction, and that will be addressed in there. And personally I think it only increases their devotion – they’re trying to conquer the galaxy with a thousand men! Bear in mind too that they have only been explicitly stated to worship the Emperor as a god, the only chapter to do so, in the new codex. That makes them super awesome, and gives them a very individual character. The lore evolves over time."

>>44734862
>>44734606
Wrong post.

>>44733996
that is understandable.

>>44734862
why would anyone read/follow a BL writer's blog?

>>44734708
Because a Rhino has a front armor of 31 compared to the Sentinel which has a front armor of 25. Because myself and a shit ton of others play the RPGs and don't give a fuck about your codex stats, because trying to make a point about lore using game mechanics, any game mechanics, is fucking retarded.

>>44734862
>>44734912
This is bullshit and I am replacing the inferior accepted canon with my own superior headcanon.

6000 battlebrothers dispersed over multiple crusades spread across the galaxy cutting shit up and recruiting like mad.

Seriously why would they have like 300 marines and scouts to one of three battle barges? Everything about the new BT lore is retarded. Especially when a tabletop game is supposed to be a small section of an entire war. If there's only like 50 bodies, then 3 crusader squads is technically all you'll ever see.

>>44735064
RPG? Is that the one where you play with friends?

So in your "ar pe ges" what armour does chimera has? I would love to hear if it has a higher point than a rhino.

>>44735156
30

In 2e, the Sister's Rhino's frontal armor is 25. The sentinel in Enemies Without has a frontal armor of 15.

>>44735310
So RPG is more clever than tabletop.
You earned this 10 internetz, my friend(not literally, friends are for the living). Spend them well.

>>44718409
Salamanders are under strength.
7 Companies of 120
60 scouts

>>44724189
Now I'm just imagining a battle brother who happily ignores his brothers in favor of his rhino.

>"Brother Rhinorius, do you not wish to sit and eat with us in the mess hall?"
> "No thanks, guys. I'll just be in the the motor pool with my rhino."
>"Brother Rhinorius, we are about to drop pod onto the surface and enact the glorious Emperor's will. There is a seat open for you-"
> "-No thanks, guys. I'll just ride down with my rhino."
> "Brother Rhinorius, would you-"
> "No thanks - rhino."
> "Brothe-"
> "-Rhino."

>>44738296
>"Where has Brother Rhinorius gone too, Sergent?"
> "He was found to be making extra-ordinary supplications to the machine spirit of his Rhino"
> "As such, the Mechanicus have been all too happy to take him in and offer training"

>>44726534

I swear that back in the pre-retard days vehicles were driven by high-functioning servitors or by serfs. Fucked if I can find it in-text though.

>>44738405
Nah, see, Brother Rhinorius isn't about that. He cares not for the Machine God or the Omnissiah or whatever hullabaloo the Mechanicus raves about. There is only one love in his life - besides the glorious Emperor of Mankind - and that is his rhino.

> "Brother Rhinorius, you have been selected to begin training with the priesthood of Mars. This is a great hono-
> "Rhino, sergeant. Rhino."

>>44739453

BROTHER RHINORIUS, REMOVE YOUR DICK FROM THAT EXHAUST PIPE, AT THE DOUBLE.