Reminder that in LOTR Orc is just another name for goblin (at least in the books) and the biggest one was almost human sized they also act more like stereotypical goblins in fantasy with their reliance on numbers, being easy to defeat once their leader is killed and being vicious, jealous cunts
where did this ''big green brute'' portrayal started? Warhammer? I also think Goblins are actually better cannon (or should I say sword) fodder exactly because they are a swarm of little shits a lot like Skaven really
SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH, SNAGA! THE KING EXCELLENT DON'T WANT YER JABBERING, HE WANTS MAN-BLOOD! GET MARCHING LITTLE WHELP, OR YER GOING IN THE GREAT MANGLER!
That's why i make mine vary in size between human sized green orkz that are like the Uruk-Hai and knee-sized goblins as the smallest variant of goblinoids.
They are the same species and are always evil.
Half-orcs are sterile and usually killed after birth.
I make sure they are demon-spawn and no player even considers playing a ''good orc'' beyond the undead one raised by a human necromancer to fight other orcs.
They had a far more human shape than a Warhammer Orc though.
As a kid this annoyed me to no end. I had been playing AD&D for years and really had problems imagining distinct species that all grew out of the word Goblin. Until I stopped bothering. The character doesn't know.
Weren't Goblins frailer Orcs? Are you sure you've got this the right way around OP? Orcs couldn't go out in the day and they were cowardly and craven and pathetic wretches. Goblins were doubly so but I can't quite recall why. Uruk Hai were super Orcs who could bear the sun and were bigger and stronger than a man.
Weird, because I distinctly remember Orcs (and Uruk-Hai even more so) being very good soldiers and ready to march for weeks to take revenge after a slain captain. They're just violent, cruel, ruthless and untrustworthy, but perfectly capable of waging war with the best of them.
Do you people actually think this or are you just desperately trying the same tired troll argument again and again.
Modern scientific definitions of a species do not apply to fantasy.
>Modern scientific definitions of a species do not apply to fantasy.
yes they do
it just means they can interbreed and have the same origin
which is all true in the books
there's no reason for the definition to not apply
Goblins was the Hobbit word for Orcs.
The only reason to goblins in the mountain were weak to light was because they've spent their whole life hiding from the world and never seen light before.
>weren't goblins frailer orcs?
No. Broadly speaking, Tolkien used Goblins as enemies in the Hobbit and Orcs in LOTR, then clarified that they were be same thing later.
That said, orcs came in some varieties. Some were small enough to be hobbit-sized, which is why Frodo and Sam were able to disguise themselves as orcs to sneak into Mordor.
Uruk-hai were the special breed or Orc - Sauron had some, but Saruman made his own, and his were the better ones. Aragorn notes how tall and strong the Isengard Uruks are. They're man-sized and shaped (as in, straight legged, broad shoulders). They didn't like the sun, but weren't weakened by it and this could travel during the day. Uruk-hai were not specifically described as cross dress, but some characters postulate it. They might be or might not be; it's also possible some are and some aren't - Saruman's in particular probably aren't.
When the orcs starts out at goblin level's of weak, being the superform doesn't put you that much further than were modern orcs are.
Warhammer Orcs are also 30 to 40 years of refinement from DnD orcs and art into something completely their own.
It's confusing because Uruk is used to describe both the unusually big and strong Orcs that came from Mordor and Saruman's mannish Orcs but the first time the term is used it's by the later to refer to themselves so it's become synonymous with them
Warhammer Orcs were big and green, but very dumb.
Warcraft, which has always copied wholesale from Warhammer, made their big and green orcs proud savages in the third game because the political climate of the day wanted to show just how poor and oppressed the greenskins were.
What I've found curious is that orcs in general have evolved as a popular folklore creature into several forms today (e.g. D&D, Warhammer, Warcraft), but they've diverged significantly in their central aspects.
First of all, they're often green, which they weren't really in Tolkien, but that's fairly minor.
Second, they're bigger than Men. Uruk-hai were extraordinary for *matching* the height of Men.
Third, and this is the big one - orcs are portrayed as simple and less technological than others. Whether they're less intelligent (D&D), tribalistic (Warcraft), or.. Whatever the words would be in Warhammer, they don't understand technology the way others do.
Which is the opposite of Tolkien. Orcs were *industrious as fuck* in Tolkien. They didn't just build machines, they understood how they worked. Look at the siege engines, the fires of industry, the gunpowder, that they build. Even if they didn't invent them on their own, they have the know-how to build and use it. Orcs are *dangerously* clever.
Curious how the endoxa of the Orc changes.
What makes things sad is how useful the Tolkien orc is for most tabletop campaigns.
I mean, imagine just how useful an expansionist empire built by weak, very numerous and dangerous clever medium-sized enemies would be. It's like combining the best qualities of goblins with the best qualities of humans, with a dash of Kobold on the side. That kind of take on the Orc would be *refreshing* in today's market.
That said, I know Pathfinder already has the Tolkien orc in their setting, it's the hobgoblin.
Prolly warhammer or something.
But even warhammer has Tolkien's orcs in it
Pic related if you think about it
Nah, Mekboyz are more like how Warcraft portrays goblins.
Tolkien orcs are more of a real-life scariness. That your enemy legitimately makes their war machine better than you do. Tolkien didn't write allegorically, but it reminds me of how people saw the Germans in the world wars, and how many opponents see Americans today. Not physically, of course, but in the sheer technological machine.
they didn't make anything ''better'' than other races they just could create machines at all they were clever for Warhammer Orc standards but without firm leadership they were exactly like them - pillaging settlements, being ruled by a chieftain, attacking in disorganised manner difference being they were weaker and smaller than humans
That's true. I'm stretching it a bit here, but perhaps their tools are what you get when you have mass production - you lose the romance of having a masterwork sword made personally by Insert Ancient Swordmaster Here and which slew Insert Ancient Badguy Here, like say Narsil, Sting or Orcrist.
That is, perhaps the dwarves, elves and men are just saying "muh quality weapons" while they are getting overwhelmed by mass-produced but still serviceable weapons.
Goblin and orc was pretty interchangable. Even the uruks were often referred to as orcs or goblins in the books, described as goblin half-breeds with men I think. The distinction was usually made by the uruks themselves, too, kinda like a tribal thing was my impression. You know, announcing "we are the fighting uruk-hai!" and shit.
but the distinction between, say, the goblins that appear in Moria in the movie and the Orcs you see elsewhere didn't really exist in the books. I'm pretty sure half of the group that kidnapped Merry and Pippin were actually goblins that had chased the Fellowship from Moria.
tolkien orcs are what you get when you breed elves to be evil bastards for millennia. Hell, orcs may still be biologically immortal, they just kill each other too often.
anyway, you know that somewhere in orc history there's a feanor figure, but instead of inventing silma he invented uranium
Thats why Tolkien wrote them that way and morgoth made them that way. They exemplify humanities most destructive and warlike tendencies and are basically a rebuild of the human race for warfare.
There was noble savages in the Frostwolf clan which allies with humans, giving players the chance to play the other faction in one mission. The Horde similarly had the shadowy Alterac.
The retcon was that demon blood made the bulk of the Horde evil rather than them just being dicks. This was retconned again in Warlords basically, showing Orcs tended to be dicks due to living on planet Australia and all it takes is someone with a CHA score above 14 to make the entire tribe behave however they want.
0) Due to mold, green is a colour related to putrid things.
1) Goblins were usually green in myths and legends.
2) In the first film of The Wizard of Oz the evil witch were painted green to give her a more menacing look. The movie became a success and green skin become a synonim to menace.
3) Legends about aliens being little green men
4) Disney's The Sleeping Beauty had another greenskin menacing witch followed by dumb pig-like men with brown-green skin.
5) Following the trope started with The Wizard of Oz some film versions of Frankesntein feature the monster having green skin, making him look like a big greenskin menacing guy.
6) The Green Goblin from Marvel also followed the trope relating it to its goblin origin.
7) Maybe as reference to Disney's The Sleeping Beauty goons or just as a pun, Dungeons & Dragons feature orcs as pig-like men related to goblins (put as different subspecies, unlike in The Lord of the Rings).
8) Games Workshop mixed 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 to create their orc and goblins. Goblins having witch-like noses and Green Goblin's pointy ears and orcs being big menacing pig-like men.
9) Warcraft copied Games Workshop and became extremely popular.
10) Games Workshop relate their greenskins to fungus and aliens as reference to 0 and 3. They also add ork doktors as another reference to 5.
I'm an expert in orc studies.
All orcs were weak to light because the sun didn't exist when they were made. When the sun rose all of Morgoth's creations had to scurry into the dark. They hide from the world specifically because of the sun, not the other way around.
The skin color thing is probably a more PC thing. Give them an unnatural skin color, so you don't run the risk of demonizing an existing culture or group. I'm ok with this, especially considering Tolkien's original description was like a propaganda piece against the Yellow Menace.
The height thing was probably to make them more menacing.
The final one is the big one, which is because Tolkien had an anti-industry slant to his work. The bad guys were all industrial, while the good guys were in touch with nature, instead of oppressing it for their own gains, like the orcs. This is vary much a change based on the views of the writers adapting the work, most of which that didn't have that slant. Its why dwarves, who are "good" took over the industrious and innovative race, since these were traits that were not seen as bad by their writers, whie orcs were given a more backwards view of modern thinking.
Nobody knows when exactly men came about, but they traveled over form the east a short time after the sun first rose. Men themselves did not remember much of their exact origins, saying "a darkness lies behind us", and it's implied Morgoth/his creations fucked with them pretty bad before they made it to the elves. The elves themselves call men the children of the sun, among other names.
>The skin color thing is probably a more PC thing. Give them an unnatural skin color, so you don't run the risk of demonizing an existing culture or group. I'm ok with this, especially considering Tolkien's original description was like a propaganda piece against the Yellow Menace.
Given Tolkien's views on Anti-Semetics and the Apartheid, I kind of doubt that.
Tolkien fucking loved myths, cultures, and most of all Jews.
The Elves were his Jewish stand-in, not Dwarves. Dwarves were just the industrialist Hobbits, meaning peoples of the United Kingdom.
Tolkien never confirmed if Orcs are men or Elves, and said in his letters the idea he considered the most is they're the mixed product of all races that can be corrupted having the meaning of evil being represented by everyone rather than an external Other group.
1) Colour: see >>44715454
2) Size: Orc means ogre, and ogres are big as fuck.
3) Technology: exactly what you said, orcs didn't invented it, and no one tought them in other settings because strenght + brains would make them rule the world, but they can't because they are evil! Similar to why undeads and demons are easy to ban from the world of the livings.
Never said that it was his views, just that the original description sounds like one, though I do think he used 'dark skin' as part of it. But that leads into trying to avoid being called racist, especially when in things like DnD and Warhammer, you work with absolutes, so the entire race is evil for no reason. The less humanoid you can make them, the easier it is to go "its not real" when criticized (Not that it really protects you, I've still seen complaints about it, but mostly aimed towards video game RPGs that use similar systems).
Dwarves were jews. Ashkenazi jews. And they still are.
Elves are a metaphor of how reinassance rediscovered ancient greek and roman cultures and how advanced they were (compared to the Middle Ages). They are like greek-roman gods and human-elf mixes like Aragorn were demigods like Hercules.
Hobbits and Frodo were a metaphor of a communist utopia.
>Hobbits and Frodo were a metaphor of a communist utopia.
This is 100% bullshit, as the Baggins family is landowners who did no physical farming except for recreation. The polar opposite of communism.
In fact, even a corporate VIP is more communist than that.
i see nothing jewish in elves.
one could say their history is biblical, but no, besides the fact of the monotheist creator god, who still gtfos soon after he created his shit, it is much, much closer in vibe, style and essence to european epic stories, germanic mostly.
They have literally no qualities stereotypically associated with jews and almost none analigies with jewish history
dwarves, on the other hand have some, and that some is much, considering how conceptually underdeveloped they are in tolkien's works, compared to other races.
You only god the Jews.
And considering Tolkien wrote the Lord of the rings SPECIFICALLY because he was tired of the English literary circlejerk of the Greeks and Romans I find it funny you actually insult him with those works.
Elves are not a metaphor, they are a myth translation.
They're literally the fey and Elves of Northern Europe myth, they're not a metaphor.
Neither are the Hobbits, because they're not a symbol, they are a literal representation of tolkien's ideal lifestyle.
How the fuck are Elves Jewish with Anglo-celt centric names?
>Uruk Hai were super Orcs who could bear the sun and were bigger and stronger than a man.
No, even Saruman's top Uruk-hai were smaller than men, and presumably weaker. Gimli showed no hesitation in fighting them at Amon Hen, but shied away from Saruman's human troops at Helm's deep.
Having a lust for revenge isn't really the first or even a major quality of a good soldier. They're also cowardly and poorly disciplined, which would work against them.
>. Aragorn notes how tall and strong the Isengard Uruks are. They're man-sized and shaped (as in, straight legged, broad shoulders). They didn't like the sun, but weren't weakened by it and this could travel during the day
I would point out that we only know this for the force that attacks Amon Hen. It's not clear at all that the group that attacks Helms Deep is composed of these same types of elite orcs.
Also, and please give me a bit to dig up some sources, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that "Orc-men", "Man-Orcs" and the Uruk-hai were three seperate things.
Well, if you count Hobbits as Humans, but they sort of are, yes.
Not him, but it's a comment Aragorn makes while they're fleeing Moria and trying to get to Lorien, IIRC.
Also not the guy you're responding to, but a lot of their gear seems to be not that great either. When Frodo and Sam are struggling through the Morgai thornbushes, Frodo's comments seem to indicate he'd consider a leather jerkin more protective than Orc-mail, which is pretty lame if true.
They're said to have first awakened on the same day the Sun was created, which would be after the Trees were destroyed.
It was actually several hundred years after the sun first rose that they got to Beleriand.
But the Elves weren't banished, a large portion of them (but still less than half, it was only the majority of the Noldor) went and then couldn't return because of the Kinslaying.
The first orcs would have to be elves, as Morgoth can't create anything from scratch and they battled elves before men ever existed.
And evil was represented ultimately by Morgoth. Everything evil is in some way influenced by him. As for groups of evil people, the Easterlings got pretty much typecast into the role of "evil foreigners". They arrived after "the good men" And betrayed the elves during the fifth battle while the good men stayed loyal. They forever more served as evil humans that fought on the side of evil and enslaved everyone else whenever they got the chance.
Not him, and I don't agree with his theory, but I thought Jews were most associated with gemcutting, which would fit into it.
Because the fundamental Orcish moral principle is hypocrisy. Remember when Shagrat and Gorbag discover Frodo? They think a big bad warrior elf hurt Shelob but left him there as a lure and a "dirty elvish trick".
Not long after, they gleefully recount the tale of poor Ufthak and how they did the exact same thing where Shelob was concerned, without any trace of the characters being able to appreciate the irony.
Orcs are evil because they don't have enough self-awareness to measure themselves against the moral standards they construct, let alone anyone else's.
>though I do think he used 'dark skin' as part of it.
Nah, it was sallow skin, slant eyes, short, broad and flat noses.
Because Satan made them and the whole point of the race is to serve as an uncomplicated bad guy.
The books are supposed to be an in-universe chronicle like the Iliad or Beowulf.
He mentions though that no race or people stood united. Which means there was good Orcs, or at least ones who refused to fight for Melkor's creations or apprentice.
And in return, the daily reminder that Tolkien really isn't that influential in fantasy. People like to throw his name around, but when you look at the descent of ideas he's far less important than Gygax.
Even if most Baggins were pieces of shit the hobbits as a whole are a metaphor of powerless people aka proletariat. That's why the ring, aka political power, barely affect them with its influence, aka greed. Giving the ring to Frodo it's literally dictatorship of the proletariat baning away super industrial capitalism from the world.
Torture is implied. He never confirms their origins.
No, banishment implies they were kicked out when still in Valinor.
They left, and were then later told they shouldn't come back while on the ice. Which again, only applied to the Elves that followed Feanor. Didn't touch the Vanyar, the Teleri, or any of the Elves who hadn't made it across at that time, like the Sindar or the Sylvan or the Avari.
>Tolkien wrote the Lord of the rings SPECIFICALLY because he was tired of the English literary circlejerk of the Greeks and Romans
And he throw them to another continent. Like poetry.
Well, Tolkien died before he settled on what would the exact origin of orcs be. Theories range from corrupted elves, to "made from the dirt" to corrupted men to some crossbreed between races.
It's confirmed Morgoth cannot create life, only Illuvitar. The books repeatedly mention orcs as victimized elves/men/etc. They have to be corruptions of other peoples as it's impossible for them to exist on their own
>Well, if you count Hobbits as Humans, but they sort of are, yes.
No, not just that.
Sure the hobbits had some pretty nice spotlight, but it was the humans who were the big players.
They were the biggest and strongest, and the only ones who got any shit done when it really mattered.
I suppose this only counts for LotR, not the other stuff.
I don't see where you're getting that.
Frodo is nobility, and wealthy. So was Bilbo. They're the protagonists.
The key was Hobbits not wanting power or wealth for wealths sake. The Sackville Baggins are also the same class as Bilbo, and are minir antagonists due to being greedy for money rather than the things money can buy.
Hobbits are ideal because they enjoy pipeweed, farming, and food while simply not having value or respect in military rank or coin.
The Lotos Eaters are not Communists, but rather are simplistic and rural.
By contrast, Communism places a great deal of importance on militarism and expansionism. Two things true Hobbits don't care about.
We KNOW he can't create life from nothing.
We DON'T KNOW how he created the Orcs, or what he made them from.
There's a difference. Tolkien himself said he never decided what they were exactly or how they were twisted.
The books present a fairly complicated war up to that point:
Essentially, Theoden is out of commission because of Wormtongue's influence, and there's nobody who can really issue a major call to arms. His son, Theodred, heads to the westernmost province (Westfold) and gathers up what is essentially the local forces there, and tries to hold off the Orcs at the fords of the Isen river. They resist for some time, but eventually lose, and while some of the troops make it to Helms deep, others are scattered all over.
Gandalf shows up, revives Theoden out of his stupor, and convinces him to ride west with just whatever he has at Edoras; at the time, they hadn't realized that the Isen defense line had broken, although they did know Theodred had died. They only enter the fort because that's where everyone else had gone, except for the troops that scattered (Gandalf rounds them up).
But it's primarily to save the Westfold troops, not exactly Rohan as a whole.
No, you have a point: Even in the SIlmarillion, it's the men or partial men who get a lot of shit done. The pure elves like Fingolfin and Finrod and Maedhros tend to do a lot of sound and fury and badassery that ends up in disaster.
They don't destroy capitalism.
In fact, its fated the Orcs will wipe out the other races other thanDwarves and the Wood Elves.
The Hobbits basically destroy atomic weapons. The supreme power that can only destroy, and is twisted and corrupting in anyone's hands-including a Hobbit.
The moral has nothing to do with captialism or communism. Its about values, namely rejecting war for the pursuits of song, smoke, food, and family.
A good modern metaphor is that the power of Sauron and Morgoth is the drug trade.
Crack and meth turned Smeagol into Gollum, gang rule turned the Elves into gangbangers, then cartels that want to topple the governments.
His life was a long list of failures and tragedies. He came off as awesome the whole time he was doing it, but his only real accomplishments were killing Glaruang along with everyone he ever loved.
Didn't a fucking dog contributed more to the bettering of middle earth than him? It was an awesome dog, but still.
angry, self hating and with shit lives
they are pretty much like me
Sackville Baggins were new riches, proletarians becoming bourgeoisie due to the increasing infludencende of Sauron already reaching the Shire searching his ring.
And it's not like hobbits were like modern communists countries but like an Utopical communist world.
Yes, but he was the only one who actually did something. Plus he was described as looking more like the elves of old than the elves of his age
Plus he is destined to be the one who is going to kill Melkor
>His life was a long list of failures and tragedies. He came off as awesome the whole time he was doing it,
Contrast this to say, Fingolfin, whose only real accomplishment was hurting Morgoth but not actually changing his policies in any way, shape, or form.
I don't think a "utopian communist world" has the open class lines that the Shire does, which are accepted by both upper and lower class alike. I mean, how do you reconcile the Gamgees into any sort of Hobbits-as-Communist framework?
Sackvilles were the side of the family that had descended into poverty.
I'd say them almost turning the Shire into a police state is more communist.
The Bagginses are landowners who are never villainized, and Sam's primary virtue is being a loyal servant to said landowners.
>No, you have a point: Even in the SIlmarillion, it's the men or partial men who get a lot of shit done.
I'm not quite sure about that. The men are glorified a lot but I'm not sure they actually accomplish much. Like in the quest for the Silmaril, It was Luthien and Huan that did most of the impressive deeds. Beren's greatest deed was getting his hand bitten off while holding a Silmaril. Huan killed every werewolve Morgoth sent at them and Luthien put Morgoth and his whole army to sleep.
>gear seems to be not that great either. When Frodo and Sam are struggling through the Morgai thornbushes, Frodo's comments seem to indicate he'd consider a leather jerkin more protective than Orc-mail, which is pretty lame if true.
Could just indicate that the thorns were long and thin enough to find their way through the rings of the chainmail.
Beren though, was the one who supplied the drive. Luthien and Huan existed in Doriath for centuries while Morgoth was kicking around, and it never occurred to them to go out and get the damn rock.
And especially in a framework where heroism is choice, that counts for a lot more than power. Beren's the one who led and supplied the reason for the mission, not Luthien or her dog.
>The Hobbits basically destroy atomic weapons.
Except Tolkien insisted that the ring wasn't a metaphor for nukes.
It's basically a nice Christian tale. There a good-evil conflict, there's Satan, there's a guy who dies and comes back.... Just look at how the ring is destroyed - by Gollum by accident because Bilbo showed him mercy decades ago. The ring also affects you less the less pride and power you have - blessed are the meek and all that.
I'm surprised /tg/ hasn't mentioned this since it's a fairly known fact that Tolkien was super religious.
The only reason the ring twisted Bilbo and Frodo was because of how their journey strengthen them. They become so strong that the communist Middle Earth were no longer a home them.
The Ring were atomic weapons, but Sauron were capitalism.
Yet Sam continued to be a loyal servant, while Frodo remained the landowner.
The Hobbits are the most capitalistic beings in the trilogy, since they DO have a capitalistic society. Everyone else is a Feudalist (a different political and economic system), or a Fascist.
Also, the other non-Fascists were not evil. At no point are the Elves or Men or Dwarves shown as wrong.
I'd argue the strongest case for Communism was the Dwarves in their economic structure though.
>communist Middle Earth
It's chock full of hereditary monarchies and operated on a feudal system with very clear social classes and everything.
>The Ring were atomic weapons, but Sauron were capitalism.
No it's not and no he wasn't. You'd have to ignore everything Tolkien even said, wrote and believed in order to think that
>by Gollum by accident because Bilbo showed him mercy decades ago.
It's no accident.
>Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than a shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
>'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."
Actually, while the term "Orc" could be used for both species, Goblins were something else entirely. It's like saying a House Cat and a Tiger are both, well, cats. Similar concept, but they're not necessarily the same thing. It's a similar situation with Gollum and Hobbits. No, he wasn't a Hobbit, but his species was a relative to them so to speak. Well, that's how I always saw it anyway.
Uruk-Hai were a hybrid species of Men and Orcs. So, basically, anyone playing as a half orc is really an Uruk-Hai.
Ever read Markus Heitz's "Dwarves" series? They're not much different from Tolkein's version, but he does show that there are multiple kinds of dwarves with different specialties. Not just smithing.
I'm just saying Turin may not have been the best example. He spent much of his life running from his problems and ruing people's lives.
Hurin though, Hurin was a badass. He saved lives and killed so many orcs they only captured him because he was weighed down by their still clinging severed limbs.
Beren only went to get the Silmaril because Thingol was a douche and asked for an impossible bride price. Technically he supplied the reason.
And Huan wasn't Luthien's dogg. He belonged to one of the sons of Feanor and went against him just because he loved Luthien so damn much. Honestly, everyone only did anything in that story because Luthien was ridiculously lovable.
There is literally no support for either point you make. "Goblins" is a hobbitish word, and Merry and Pippin use it to describe the Uruk-hai that capture them.
Uruk-Hai aren't descended from men, as the "Black Uruks of Mordor" appear literally more than a thousand years before Saruman turns to evil and starts maybe mixing the two.
>I'm just saying Turin may not have been the best example. He spent much of his life running from his problems and ruing people's lives.
I didn't pick Turin as an example, I just ran with a different anon's. Honestly, I would point to either Beren, or Earendil, who is canonically stated to have been more manlike than elflike, even if his wife does nag him into choosing elvishness.
>Beren only went to get the Silmaril because Thingol was a douche and asked for an impossible bride price. Technically he supplied the reason.
He supplied the reason, but not the insane determination to go on a suicide mission for it. You think that if Thingol ordered this to Mablung or Beleg they would have braved Thangorordrim? Even if Luthien's hand was promised as a reward for success?
>And Huan wasn't Luthien's dogg. He belonged to one of the sons of Feanor and went against him just because he loved Luthien so damn much.
You're right, I had forgotten.
>, everyone only did anything in that story because Luthien was ridiculously lovable.
Well of course, she's an insert of Edith.
Tolkien said the ring wasn't an allegory. He also said that readers were welcome to see metaphors in the book. There's even an essay where he spergs out over the difference between allegory and metaphor.
Oh definitely. But it was fate and/or prophecy, not luck. Bilbo's mercy winning the war is something Gandalf alludes to all the way back in the Shire, before they set out.
This passage is VERY IMPORTANT
Note that the voice comes from the wheel of fire. It's the Ring speaking and cursing Gollum, not Frodo. It thinks it doesn't need Gollum anymore, now that it's got it's hooks into a fresh hobbit.
The Ring destroys itself.
The Orc to Goblin seperation in most fantasy media largely parallels the Uruk-Hai to Orc/Goblin separation in LOTR. So, it started in LOTR, and they switched some of the names around, likely because "Uruk-Hai" sounds more awkward than just saying Orc.
Beren wavered many times during the mission, especially after Luthien showed up and bid him to runaway with her. But he pushed through because "muh oath", which ironically is the same drive that led the elves to their doom. Fucking oaths man.
>You think that if Thingol ordered this to Mablung or Beleg they would have braved Thangorordrim? Even if Luthien's hand was promised as a reward for success?
Yes. But they'd fail, because they wouldn't have love on their side. That was the only reason the quest worked out, and likely the overall lesson of the whole thing. Love is the greatest power; the half-elves are all the most successful people because they are physical embodiments of it. Also probably because they have god blood, but that's not as sweet of a lesson.
Aragorn was half-elf and elves were gods, not ominipotent gods of course, but minor gods. Since gods are who rule people, creating demigods or "half-elves" was giving the power to rule to people. Aragorn's monarchy it's a metaphor of democracy.
>inb4 he wasn't elected
The Fellowship was the real democracy representing all countries, Aragorn was just its leader or president.
The greatest power of the Numenorean blood descends from the Maiar They're half-elves but the elf half was also half god, and not in the "elves who gazed upon the two trees" way. They're only so awesome because of Melian. Nobody ever remembers to give her credit.
Ehh, but the Ring is in the possession of Frodo; it's not completely in control, even if it has its hooks in pretty deeply. I'm not sure the Ring has enough sapience to say that it causes things on its own rather than just influencing the people around it.
I don't have my copy of the Silm in front of me, and I've clearly forgotten many details, but when does Beren waver? He tarries for a time on that werewolf island, but that I had thought was more like recovering from his trauma.
>Yes. But they'd fail, because they wouldn't have love on their side.
I don't disagree with you about Beren being a kind of love triumphs over all, but I don't think any of the elves around at that point (or to be honest, any elf besides Feanor and maaaybe Fingolfin) would have even tried. They just don't go for that same emotional range that people do, and the only time you ever see one ever powerfully demonstrate emotion to the point of wanting to challenge fate over it, it's negative stuff, rage, grief, loss.
Beren and Luthien tarry a couple times just to enjoy each other's company, and Beren struggles to decide whether to stay or fufill his promise. He eventually chooses the promise, and even abandons Luthien because he doesn't want to endanger her, but she chases him down by riding Huan and refuses to leave his side regardless of what he may choose. Huan even speaks for the first time ever and persuades Beren to stay in Luthien's company during the journey. Then the three of them finally head off to get the Silmaril.
>I don't disagree with you about Beren being a kind of love triumphs over all, but I don't think any of the elves around at that point (or to be honest, any elf besides Feanor and maaaybe Fingolfin) would have even tried.
I dunno, Beleg chases down Turin out of friendship despite Turin's repeated attempts to distance himself from everyone. Beleg even gets himself killed for all his troubles.
Then there was Finrod who joined Beren's quest despite his people not supporting such folly, all because he made an oath to Beren's line to protect them after Beor(?) saved his life. He too died for his oath.
The elves had some pretty passionate and driven people in their ranks throughout all the ages, they were just tied up in Feanor's oath/the Doom of Mandos, ruining any efforts they made.
Seriously, Feanor ruined everything.
Men don't really challenge fate per se, as they don't really seem aware of it the same way elves are. They just do things and don't really have an inkling of how it'll turn out. Elves do things, but they have all these dooms and destinies and shit that bog them down. On the meta level it probably ties into their final fates; elves must linger in the halls of Mandos until the end of time while men can go off into some unknown fate. This consequentially dooms elves to be bound by what is foretold, while men are free agents because nothing is foretold for them.
I'm not so sure, I mean, you have what Morgoth did to Hurin and family, which certainly seems to be a sort of (nasty) fate, but even within that, they manage to do things like cost Morgoth Glaurung.
>Weren't Goblins frailer Orcs?
No, small and weak Orcs were called Snaga (slaves), while big ad strong Orcs were called Uruk, which is clearly related to the Sindarin word orch and the Quenya word urko.
>It's basically a nice Christian tale
Not really. There are paralells to Christianity, but it was never Tolkien's intention to write a Christian myth. It's not an allegory of anything in particular, even if certain elements in the story can be said to be allegorical in nature, such as the Ring which is clearly an allegory of the corrupting nature of power.
It's also strange to me that whenever the discussion of the themes of LotR is brought up people always bring up Tolkien's Christian beliefs and anti-industrialism, but seemingly never his Anarcho-Monarchist views which are at least as prominent in the book as the two former themes. The book is clearly not an allegory for the superiority of Anarcho-Monarchism over other government forms, just as it isn't an allegory for Catholic Christianity or Environmentalism, but it is strange that one of the most blatantly obvious themes of the book goes completely ignored.
Close. The word Uruk simply means Orc in Black Speech. The term Uruk-hai means Orc-folk and is rather unclear in its meaning. The similar term Olog-hai refers to Sauron's special breed of Trolls that appear in Return of the King and they are never said to have been bred with Men, and as far as I remember the only one in the book who claims that they were half-human was Treebeard who Tolkien explicitly stated in his letters was not omnicient and not necessarily right about things he claimed.
Uruks were just Orcs who happened to be slightly larger than other Orcs.
Uruk-hai seems to refer to a different breed of Orcs, which are sometimes referred to as Orc-men, but it's unclear wether this means that they were simply "like Men" or that they were "half-Men".
>The bad guys are muslims
It's more that Tolkien is drawing from a long European history of invasions from the East. He put a lot of effort into making his story resonate with a European audience in general, and an English one in particular. This is why he made the Elven languages sound Celtic and Finnish, because those are languages that exist close to the English-speaking world but are still entirely foreign to it, and why he made Black Speech sound a lot like eastern agglutinative languages like Turkic and Hungarian.
So they dislike sun because their symbol is a moon.
Night Goblins? More like Burka Goblins!
>and all it takes is someone with a CHA score above 14 to make the entire tribe behave however they want.
That sounds exactly like the history of this world, hell its happening right now. Everything fucks up man.
>The pure elves like Fingolfin and Finrod and Maedhros tend to do a lot of sound and fury and badassery that ends up in disaster.
Well Doom of Mandos and the Kinslaying, the Maedhros and the Noldor were all screwed as a people.
Given that Morgoth is literally Satan, and Tolkien was heavily Christian, I can assure you Morgoth did not have the power to create life. That's a pretty big point in catholic dogma, Sagan cannot create life only corrupt it. That is why succubi/incubi existed
>Tolkein's estate does
Tolkien Enterprises does. A company set up the Saul Zaentz Company to manage their license. Tolkien estate had absolutely nothing to do with the game, they just hope that you think the name Tolkien Enterprises sounds official enough and move on without looking further into your sources.
>They gave the writers full access to his notes
>they did their research
>It is canon
Tolkien literally said his Dwarves were based upon Jews.
It wasn't allegory but he admitted in real-life inspirations and admitted Dwarves, Easterlings, Orcs and more were deliberate mis-characterisations of real ethnicities.
Thank you for talking about something you know instead of shit you don't.
Noldor banishment isn't the Jewish exile, it's the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
Elves were pre-Edenic humans, created in a time before Morgoth corrupted the world and thus uncorrupted- unlike Men.
Your paragraph about Goblins is incorrect: Goblin, Orc and Uruk are words in different languages for the same creature.
Elros was the only half-elven Numenorean.
Aragorn isn't even a pure blooded Numenorean.
He is by no means "half" elf- what makes him special is that he's an atavistic Numenorean so he's tall, strong, quick, wise and potentially has mental powers.
Imrahil was an example of an atavistic Elf because he came from Dol Amroth where there was a whole group of elves that interbred with Men (possibly)
>The greatest power of the Numenorean blood descends from the Maiar
I think it's more correct to say their power comes from the Valar. Elros' magic elf blood probably didn't spread too far to the other Numenoreans.
Also, it's a bit of a stretch to claim Numenoreans are powerful because of Melian when Elros was descended from fucking Tuor.
>created in a time before Morgoth corrupted the world and thus uncorrupted- unlike Men.
Incorrect. Mot goth corrupted the world even before its creation. Not even the Elves were therefore free from it.
>it's a bit of a stretch to claim Numenoreans are powerful because of Melian when Elros was descended from fucking Tuor.
He's also the son of Elwing, who's the daughter of Dior, who's the son of Luthien, daughter of Melian the Maia.
The two half-elven lines blended. Numenoreans have the blood of fucking everybody in them. And who knows how magic god blood works; even distant relations may receive a significant boost in power just from a drop of it. Then there's the exposure to the light of the two trees which they have through their noldor ancestry and all their forefathers that actually possessed a silmaril without it burning the shit out of them.
Numenoreans are just fucking hax.
>Noldor banishment isn't the Jewish exile, it's the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
Nah, "To Cuivinien there is no returning" is the Edenic expulsion. That's when the Elves were innocent and powerless. Once the Valar start tampering with them and teaching them things, they can't really be considered innocent.
If you want to draw a biblical parallel, the Kinslaying is probably akin to the golden calf, and the banishment from Valinor is the wandering in the desert, a temporary adjustment for the elves to purify themselves before they're ready to take (or re-take) their inheritance.
>Goblin, Orc and Uruk are words in different languages for the same creature.
Goblin and orc are the Westron and Rohirric names for the same creature. Uruk is a related word in the Black Speech (probably a borrowing from Sindarin "orch" or Quenya "orog"), but in LotR is used to specifically refer to the larger, stronger orcs Sauron and Saruman bred in the late 3rd Age.
I should stop looking at things from cracked.
These people take white guilt to a whole new level.
I mean they make a bit of a self-aware joke about it but that doesn't excuse it
I think having goblins/orcs be a proper continuum with various names is more interesting in some ways than having orcs and goblins totally separate.
Battle for Middle-Earth was pretty decent.
And there was that old, old (1992?) Interplay adventure/RPG game. The game itself was pretty lame, but it was one of the most complete and awesome Tolkien adaptations I've ever seen. They actually work within the fictional languages, and they add on stuff that really does fit in with the rest of the setting, as opposed to sticking out like a sore thumb the way Jackson did his additions.
Was it written by Tolkien? No? Then it's not canon.
They did that in the movies to make them more "standard fantasy". It's the same reason the elves have pointy ears and long hair, and the dwarves are beer-loving Scotsmen.
Because orcs aren't really a race. They're basically elves who were captured by the Enemy and then tortured, brainwashed, and completely and utterly corrupted until they could no longer be called elves.
They are beings who know nothing but pain, fear, and hatred, their minds and spirits broken into unquestioning obedience to their torturers.
That's also why it's treated as acceptable to kill them -- or rather, why they don't get the same sympathy as humans, elves, dwarves, or hobbits. Their entire existence is agony. Killing them, giving them the chance to go to Valinor -- possibly even in its original, uncorrupted form -- is the nicest thing you could possibly do for them.
He was one of the Numereons. You see, most humans sided with Melkor. The ones who had the balls to oppose the dragons, Balrogs and shit that Morgoth had were rewarded with "bodies only Elves had". They had longer lifespans, physical abilities, etc. Aragorn is one of them.
Correct, though it is a very accurate guide to canon, since it draws closely from many things Tolkien actually wrote. You can't trust it 100%, or you start doing things like blindly repeating the "orcs are corrupted elves" idea as seen here >>44735520 without knowing that this was neither the first nor the last idea Tolkien had for orc origins and that he never really settled on any of the options.
It is, however, the only good or fleshed out one. Yes, later on he did sort of mutter a bit about orcs possibly maybe being a race and "there are probably good ones, they just never show up." But that was later, and never really fleshed out.
"Orcs are elves" wasn't fleshed out at all besides being mentioned in a couple timelines (with later marginal notes saying "wait no, orcs aren't elvish" added in). That's why it's mentioned in one sentence in the Silmarillion and then is never brought up again. There's just as much written about orcs being made by Morgoth from mud and slime, or about orcs being corrupted humans, as there is about orcs being corrupted elves.
But inter-species hybrids aren't fertile. If they were, they would be the same species. Tolkien's half-elves are capable of having children, at least, and beyond that there may not even be any physical differences between elves and humans. The only major differences are spiritual/metaphysical in nature, so it kind of makes sense to consider humans and elves the same species.
> But inter-species hybrids aren't fertile. If they were, they would be the same species.
> Coyotes and wolves or dogs
> African killer bees and honey bees
> Cattle and bison (mmm Beefalo)
> A whole bunch of birds, a number of snakes
A lot of inter-species hybrids produce infertile offspring, but there are quite a few that do just fine.
No, that's an example of why the definition works. The results of hybrid speciation are treated as new species exactly because they can't interbreed to produce fertile offspring with the two source species.
Gorilla-like monsters reminiscent of today's orcs are a standard image in propaganda posters at least since XIX century.
What does that have to do with anything? Those hybrids self evidently COULD breed with pure Homo sapiens because everyone outside of Africa has a bit of Neanderthal DNA.
And Homo sapiens with Neanderthal DNA in them are still the same species as modern African humans without Neanderthal DNA.
40k orks would probably be traced to this exact image.
Except they were and are classified as such.
If they are the same species then since they independently evolved from Homo heidelbergensis on entirely different continents we are still still H. heidelbergensis.
Hell Coyotes and Wolves are the same species according to you.
I DON'T TAKE QUESTIONS FROM STINKING MORGUL RATS!
Where it specifically comes from is the guy who did the yoda-voice for peons in Warcraft 2. That influence, more than any other, shaped orcs into big, green guys.
D&D orcs were not that. Warhammer orcs were, but Warhammer wasn't that popular. Warcraft isn't based on Warhammer, but it did lift the image of orcs from it. But of course, Warhammer likewise lifted their images of orcs from other things, slightly changing them. All 90s fantasy was stealing from all other 90s fantasy. But if you want to pinpoint an origin for big, green and dumb with tusks coming up from the lower jaw? The peon in Warcraft 2 is where that image comes from.
I agree, but Warcraft was still a pastiche. It was not a direct lift from any particular source. It was an amalgam of popular fantasy at the time. I'm certainly not saying Blizzard did it first. But the contemporary image of orcs in fantasy as muscle-bulgy green guys with lower-tusk jaws? I think if you want to find one particular source to attribute it to, the biggest influence in popular culture--the turning point where that portrayal took over--is in the peons of Warcraft 2.
Sure. I'm not disagreeing with that. More people are familiar with Warcraft than Warhammer. I think part of that success is also because the humor in Warcraft is the more accessible American humor that more people across the world understand. British humor revolves more around irony, gallow humor and can be so satirical that some people don't understand that it's being satirical.
When I was a teenager in the 90's and played Warcraft 2 I got all the jokes. When I around the same time got into Warhammer I did not get all the jokes, and references and it seemed a whole lot more serious than Warcraft to my 13 year old brain who was just getting a good grasp on the english language at the time.
Amusing enough, I think Warcraft as a franchise is now more drenched in references than Warhammer ever was.
a lot of things in wow are less low hanging fruits and more dropped to the ground and squashed fruits.
Shit like the DEHTA and the murloc meme is disgustingly overdone.
in that respect Mists of Pandaria was something off the beaten path for the most part for blizzard.
something completely new.
Something I never understood on Tolkien high fantasy world. This even has been a debate even when he was alive. While the dirrent term for orc goblins and hobgoblin are just the same, the urukai differed for they were human sized and fit so to speak.
But tolkien never speaks how they reproduce. The orcs that is. Where are the females? Not even one, or a mention. Why?
From what i understood, bookwise.
The urukhai, goblins with easterling women
Goblin hobgoblins and goblins, corrupted elves molded by morgoth.
So, if they breed like men and elves, this means some elf women were corrupted by morgoth during the first era.
This, so much this in all of tolkiens writing, Tolkien admitted he wasn't sure what most things were in his books, so when you read it you think it's some ambiguously cleaver literature that has set perimeters and meanings, when in reality he just never made up his damn mind about most of his imaginary shit. He even said he wasn't sure if "magic" was even in his story. He often argued with himself if he should make it wizardry or Devine intervention from God.
What if Tolkien just wrte these books to entertain his kids and now some crazed dudes think he wrote it has some complicated world buildind scheme when it was just a book to read in order to entertain his kids in a time where war was over and children rarely had anything other than build up war traumas?
Sorry but it doesn't add to the charm for me, I much rather prefer that Tolkien had some conviction in his fantasy universe, instead of all this half-baked pussy footing around what he actually meant to write.
Everybody knows kids were smarter back then. Parents did not spoil the rod and this included professors too. Besides, it was a time where the old and honorable ways were still in use.
pretty sure he is talking about the orks with lower tusks jutting upward.
it is the equivalent of norse myth being passed on by christian monks.
the brain fills in the gaps.