Guilliman. Everyone said Horus was better because he could be nice to everyone, but plenty of these Primarches need to stop being such massive babbies who cry to Horus every time their feelings are hurt.
Better yet, Sanguinius as warrior/figurehead with Guilliman as advisor.
>>44710931 Vulkan could have done the job. He's a nice guy who would be good for morale. Sure, he isn't a genius tactician but that wasn't needed much by the final moments of the Great Crusade and the Imperium was just steam rolling everything. Perturabo could do it if he wasn't such a stick in the mud
Gulliman. By that point, you needed a strong administrator who can garrison, assimilate, and foster millions of planets at once. In other words, someone who can set policy and delegate effectively.
Gulliman is the only person with even a hint of that. Most of the rest are too niche. Conrad Curze and Alpharius are both very effective at what they do, but what they do is so narrow that you can't really forge an empire with them. Jagatai Khan, Angron, and Leman Russ are all too combat focused: they can conquer worlds, sure, but not rebuild and rule them afterward. And many, many of them were simply too narcissistic to lead.
I sometimes wonder if the Emperor planned to do away with the Space Marines after the Great Crusade, replacing them with something else, just like he did the Thunder Warriors once they outlived their usefulness.
Rogal Dorn, most definitely. Gulliman is one of my favorite primarchs, but he always struck me as more of a builder and reinforcer of civilization than the conquering type. Dorn was the one who was more interested in expanding the Imperiums borders quickly, keeping his miltary mobile and comparatively fleeting. Didn't he say something to the effect of not wanting subjects so much as soldiers?
Combine that with his special affinity for seige warfare and his actualization of the Astartes role as shock troopers, and you have a Warmaster par Excellence. Also, he's much more stable than Horus, more of an ideal military man.
>>44711574 >Rogal Dorn, most definitely. Gulliman is one of my favorite primarchs, but he always struck me as more of a builder and reinforcer of civilization than the conquering type. Dorn was the one who was more interested in expanding the Imperiums borders quickly, keeping his miltary mobile and comparatively fleeting.
>>44711600 yeah because that worked out so well for Rome
>>44710931 Guiliman or Sanguinius, the time former was considered for Warmaster along side Horus, and the latter was considered to be the most like the Emperor out of all the Primarchs. As for worst, I'd say Angron or Edge Lord Curze, as both of them would have killed half of the planets they came across because they could.
>>44711430 >you needed a strong administrator who can garrison, assimilate, and foster millions of planets at once. This was probably Lorgar's biggest strength. He never wanted to be a warrior and spend all his time turning the worlds he conquered into intensely loyal, culturally assimilated and productive parts of the Imperium.
>>44711890 Don't put Russ in the category of Curze or Angron, those two were legit psychos. Russ' barbarian persona was an act to trick everyone into thinking he was a dumb brute. Valador even said so himself, and this was before he and Russ became friends.
>>44710931 Best would probably have been Sanguinus >>44711032 >Guilliman. Everyone said Horus was better because he could be nice to everyone, but plenty of these Primarches need to stop being such massive babbies who cry to Horus every time their feelings are hurt. Guilliman was a bitch who cried when people did war differently than he wanted. Him as Warmaster would have been a massive shitshow.
>>44711430 >I sometimes wonder if the Emperor planned to do away with the Space Marines after the Great Crusade, replacing them with something else, just like he did the Thunder Warriors once they outlived their usefulness.
I'm sure that was the plan and, even if it wasn't, he probably would have done it anyway if he wasn't turned into a vegetable after the Heresy.
10:1 marines were only suppose to be around until he got that webway portal working correctly. More of a stopgap than a final solution (for lack of a better word).
>>44711430 >I sometimes wonder if the Emperor planned to do away with the Space Marines after the Great Crusade, replacing them with something else, just like he did the Thunder Warriors once they outlived their usefulness.
The space marines are only a stop gap, ultimately they were to preserve humanity until a race of properly trained super psykers could take their place.
>>44712712 I was always of this oppinion too, though Ive never been sure just how the Emperor would have gone bout doing this. In my mind the SMs would just be relegted to advisory millitary roles while SM recruitment was slowly phased out over time.
For alternate Warmaster probbly Guiliman, though maybe not as overtly brilliant at outright warfare as some of the others he has the organization, strategy and human empathy to run an effective empire. Sanguinuis and Vulkan both are even more caring about the common man than Guiliman but lacked much of his political/logistical talent. Both dorn and Perturabo are excellent empire and infrastructure builders but lack the human empathy of the above.
The one quality primarchs and most SMs by extention seem to lack is care for the common human, the empire they were building was meant to primarily be for them.
>>44712933 well Perty would never have betrayed the emperor if he was named warmaster. His biggest gripe was he and his legion never got recognized for their deeds, it was dumb of him to join Horus though considering it was Horus was kept giving him those bitch jobs.
>>44711951 The problem is, Warmaster's job isn't just to keep the Imperial war machine rolling. It's also to keep other Primarchs in check and be able to order them around.
First thing, the other seventeen must respect the Warmaster. That already does away with Alpharius, Curze, Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion and Lorgar, as they didn't hold much sway with other Primarchs. Second, the Warmaster must be able to sweet-talk his brothers over to his side and generally be a good politician. Scratch out Russ (too wild), Khan (too much of a loner), Lion (too distanced), Ferrus (too cold) and Dorn (too little of a politician). Third, the Warmaster must be a symbol of Imperium's combat prowess, he must have sort of "flair and fanfare" to him and a public persona that's a reflection of the might of imperial war machine. That means we can forget about Magnus, Corax or Vulkan.
Barring Horus, this leaves us with Fulgrim, Sanguinus and Guilliman. I'd say of those three Sanguinus would be the best - Fulgrim and Guilliman would have their talents much better used as administrators rather than eternal generals.
>>44713445 No, that's just you setting arbitrary standards. Loyal just means that you remain faithful to your master. Many Chaos Primarchs could easily have remained loyal under different circumstances.
>>44713631 Are you retarded? Perhaps you failed to notice that we were talking about a "what if" scenario in the first place and that imagining what might have happened is the whole point? Of course Perturabo isn't loyal in the real timeline, but he could have been if he had been treated differently. I do not understand why you cannot grasp such a simple concept.
>We should live all life imagining what might have happened under different circumstances and acting like what we do has no effect on who we are.
I mean, you're seriously sarcastically saying here that we should take into account what we do when we consider who we are, but then object to the notion that different actions might cause people to end up differently. You literally disprove your own point by trying to argue for it. This is a level of stupidity that is just painful to read.
>>44713803 Let me try to rephrase it for you, since my previous statement was apparently a little too advanced:
It is stupid to call Perturabo a loyal person just because he would have stayed loyal if he had gotten what he wanted. It is doubly stupid to assume that the chip on his shoulder and the autism in his brain would vanish just because he would be put in charge of the rest of his military. No one is going to become interested in Perty's little projects (which is what he REALLY wants/needs) just because he's the warmaster.
>>44713880 >>44713980 >>44713986 You know there are 2 or 3 different people that are calling you retarded right? If one person thinks your argument is retarded, maybe that person just doesn't get it; if multiple people find your argument retarded, you're retarded.
>>44714183 I think you need to reread that original Perturabo post. He said that Perty would have stayed with the Emperor if he was warmaster, he never said loyalty is what would have made him a good warmaster.
>>44710931 none of them could truly have been a good warmaster. The emperor should have maintained control of his vast empire at the forefront of the crusade, assigning his sons where they were most needed, By handing over the reign, he assumed that his sons would have the ability to continue his ideals, not realizing that each primarch had his own ideals, beliefs, and methods to such an extreme that they would never truly carry out his plans as he intended. Horus was only chosen since he was the most reciprocate of the emperors ideals and beliefs, and it was only because of that similar set of beliefs that horus felt betrayed by the emperor when the whole chaos shibang went down. TL;DR: Horus did nothing wrong.
Gilliman or Lorgar. both the only primarchs actually able to run a kingdom that's profitable enough to support 16 other babies space-scapades. Which other leaders were able to enact and maintain a 10% tithe and the people thank them for it?
any other answer is sure to end the reign of man. At least with those two motherfuckers we have a chance.
>>44710931 All primarchs would have been equally incompetent. Emperor made a mistake when he centered his entire strategic commands around legiones astartes. If he used them as relatively small, mobile and semi-independent reserve/strike assets and made good use of Imperial Armada and Army commanders - crusade would have been far more successful on every step.
>>44714925 probably would have taken 3 times as long, since training that many men, and replacing the gruelling losses would have been hard pressed. Marines sure took a shit ton of resources to make, but have a far longer expected life of service.
>>44715088 At the early onset of the crusade, yes because they only had so many worlds to recruit from. After the first 50 years they could have probably been ok, but at that point, the reliance on marines was so great, that it made more sense to put marines at forefront at all times,
>>44715509 Well, he'd been around the longest, so he'd been there to meet each of the primarchs in turn, and some of them even served under him for some time. And while his legion wasn't as tactically flexible as Gullimans, he knew how to put other Legions to good use.
I have no love for the Ultras (or, rather, I have no love for the post-Wardian Ultras, 2E Ultramarines codex is still a good read), but Papa Smurf would have been the best among the 18. Cinnabon wouldn't have been a terrible choice in terms of ability but I feel like he would have too many personal issues to sort out to really commit to the crusade.
>>44711574 >Rogal Dorn, most definitely. Gulliman is one of my favorite primarchs, but he always struck me as more of a builder and reinforcer of civilization than the conquering type. Dorn was the one who was more interested in expanding the Imperiums borders quickly
Wut. Dorn isn't even mentioned as being near the top in terms of conquering like Guilliman, who is often said to have taken the most worlds of all the Primarchs.
>>44715338 At the early years of the crusade Imperium had even less resourses to upkeep legions due to massive amounts of high-tech gear they require. But even back then, Emperor himself commanded his forces - by the time he left the war and returned to Terra Imperial Army was already trillions strong.
>>44711574 the thing gulliman did best was conquering because unlike the others he though about post imperial conquest and made sure they were productive defensible and stable he was so good at it he turned it into an art form
>>44711971 >Angron had laughed, the sound rich and true. ‘Such pretty lies! We fight for the same reasons men have always fought: for land, for resources, for wealth and for bodies to feed into the grinders of industry. We fight to silence anyone that dares draw breath and whisper a different opinion from ours. We fight because the Emperor wants every world in his hands. All he knows is slavery, painted in the inoffensive cloak of compliance. The very notion of freedom is a horror to him.
>You are free, Leman Russ of Fenris, because your freedom matches the Emperor’s will. For each time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium’s advance, there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilizations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor’s hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery.
>I am loyal, the same as you. I am told to bathe my Legion in the blood of innocents and sinners alike, and I do it, because it is all that’s left for me in this life. I do these things, and I enjoy them, not because we are moral, or right – or loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe – but because all I feel are the Butcher’s Nails hammered into my brain. I serve because of this “mutilation”. Without it? Well, perhaps I might be a more moral man, like you claim to be. A virtuous man, eh? Perhaps I might ascend the steps of our father’s palace and take the slaving bastard’s head!
Where were you when Russ got seriously BTFO by someone with brain damage?
Am I the only one here who thinks Jaghatai could do it better than most? I think the biggest problem he would have is that the other primarchs don't trust him much, and that may presumably get better as he leads them more.
Malcador already had an even more important job: running the civil administration and intelligence apparatus.
IMO the emperor should have been transitioning by that point from conquering an empire to patrolling and protecting it. And yet he didn't.
That makes sense if he's an AoS warlord who's never had to rule a mature, secure empire before.
But it might also mean that the Emperor was planning to redirect the Great Crusade rather than wind it down. Perhaps by declaring a galaxy-wide purge of the Orks? If he's trying to tamp down and refocus Warp Energy, I can't think of a race that spends more time feeding Khorne than the Orks.
Either way, the issue isn't "can Malcador do it?" Of course he can. He's an immensely powerful psyker and that alone should be enough, but more importantly he's a super-genius mastermind. Perhaps even powerful enough that he can overcome the prejudice by space marines against normal humans (his one drawback). But that's a job that Malcador won't take. He's always watched and waited, acting as an adviser and guide rather than a ruler. In thousands of years of operating behind the scenes, he's no doubt learned the great perils of being a figure of such immense authority so openly. In fact, I'm sure he'd have avoided the role he did take, if it were anyone other than the Emperor giving that job to him.
>>44729113 He actually wasn't. He and Malcador couldn't figure out a way to get them out without killing Angron, and they figured that he was marginally more useful as a live raving berserker than as a corpse.
>>44729362 What the fuck did you say about the Lion, you little servitor? Lion El'Jonson graduated top of his class in monster hunting and has been involved in numerous secret raids on his own home planet, and has over 300 confirmed team-kills. He is trained in autistic warfare and is the prime primarch-puncher in the entire Imperium of Man. Your chapter is nothing to him but another group of friendlies to team-kill, and he will wipe them out with savant-like precision the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Great Crusade. You think you can get away with saying things like that over the webway? Think again, heretic. As we speak I am contacting The Rock and your fortress-monastery is being traced right now so you better prepare for the Unforgiven, heretic. The non-codex-compliant Unforgiven that'll team-kill the pathetic little thing you call your chapter. You're fucking dead, traitor. Lion El'Jonson could be anywhere inside The Rock at anytime, and he can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with his flowing mane. Not only is he extensively trained in the use of hair-care products, but he can also slay a Great Unclean One with a single smile from his pearly white incisors. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "loyalist" heresy was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you Chaos-tainted Fallen. I will spam plasma all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, heretic.
>>44730235 Yeah, but he said it while he was dying and having a mental breakdown about all the responsibility the Emperor placed on his shoulders, so I'm not sure if he truly believed Sangy would have been better.
>Oh father, why have you forsaken me! I can't handle the task you have given me! Why didn't you give it someone else, like.. uh.. Sanguinius! Yeah, everyone like him. It shoulda been him!
>>44730425 He'd be the best choice, one of the best strategists but autistic enough that even if he fell there'd never be a HH type situation since he couldn't possibly rally enough legion to his side. All you people saying that the Warmaster needs to be liked are retards, that's what got us the HH in the first place.
>>44728441 >there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilizations and call it liberation.
IIRC, didn't Horus and Big E take quite a lot of worlds through diplomacy? I mean, you can argue about all the other stuff Angron sais here, but the Emperor wouldn't have conquered most of the galaxy within just 200 years if his only idea of uniting humanity was just "send billions of guardsmen for decades into the meatgrinder for every sector/planet in our way". Sure, in some cases it doesn't work any other way, but Angrons idea seems pretty silly.
>>44730569 Doesn't really contradict anything that Angron said. A world can be peaceful and wish to be left alone and refuse the offer to join the Imperium, actually that would be the only way for them to be peaceful and solitary.
>>44728441 Except Angron is full of shit. Worlds were routinely absorbed through diplomacy and even if you do have to resort to fighting there really is no reason to be genocidal about it and destroy whole civilizations
Just because Angron is a brain damaged retard who is too stupid to negotiate or minimize collateral damage like the Ultramarines doesn't suddenly mean the Emperor is no better than the rulers of his shitty homeworld.
This asshole goes out of his way to cause senseless carnage and now wants to shift blame. Fuck him.
>>44730884 Yeah, but you cannot refuse to join. There is no "diplomacy" there is only surrender without fighting. The Emperor is subjugating the entire galaxy to his regime and no one can decide they'd rather not be part of it or be left alone. If they do, they're conquered or slaughtered. That's the what Angron points out. Your only decisions are to "freely" follow the Emperor's will without a fight or do so after he beats the shit out of you.
>>44730594 Not being loved does not mean you cannot get people do do what you want. Guilliman would have turned the crusade into a proper military rather than a bunch of egotistic warlords with hurt feefees and their retinues.
And then Horus didn't exactly do anything to stop squabbling among his brothers.
>>44730948 You don't "send" legions or micromanage them. Their job is to take back human worlds. How they chose to do it is up to them. The Eaters will slaughter everyone without bothering themselves with a single phone call. The Luna Wolves will be more inclined to try diplomacy.
>>44730956 The only thing he is told is "retake human worlds". The fact that he chooses to interpret that as "RIP AND TEAR" is him being disingenuous. How is it that other legions can talk to people yet this collection of retards can't? Angron is killer and he loves it. He always loved it. Now he gets to enjoy it while crying about how he really doesn't want it and it's all the Emperor's fault. Fucking resign if you don't want it.
>>44730984 Except it's very clear that outright "refusal" wasn't very common. In the HH books one of the characters specifically says that most of time the Imperials are welcomed by local populations. This makes complete sense since the Imperials are reuniting the lost human empire of the DAoT. And how many vicious tyrants were thrown down by the Imperials?
Is the Imperium heavy handed on occasion. Of course it is. But Angron is exaggerating things to absolve his own wrongdoings. If you are welcomed at least most of the time then you really can't say "you're no better than a slaver".
>>44710931 Best? Sanguinius or the Lion, Sanguinius is a perfect leader of men and the Lion is a tactical savant Worst? Alpharius Omegon. None of his brothers trusted him and he would go full autism in his overly elabortate "Just as Planned!" schemes
I think only Corax didn't like Horus and that was after Horus was already corrupted by Erebus, when Horus ordered Corax's legion to do a frontal assault instead of the Space Wolves which suits their tactics better
>>44731753 That doesn't mean he was bad. One does not need to be top tier to be pretty good. Really, he has been shown to be on par with the Lion - and held his own against Angron better than Russ - but they both got btfo by Kurze.
>>44731533 >No one feared Guilliman himself, he was only a step above Lorgar in fighting prowess No Primarch is feared for his fighting prowess. A bolt shell to the head kills them as good as the next man.
It's their capacity to act as leaders and the unquestioning loyalty of their legions that makes them so formidable in addition to anything special they might possess like psyker powers.
Guilliman is certainly a primarch to be feared. What is an extra sword hand compared to the military output of Guilliman's personal domain, or his clearly great skill at organization?
>>44731944 Not really. Dorn dies post-heresy while boarding a Chaos ship. No other primarchs were present. Even in the HH series there is the Horus who gets mortally wounded and has to be saved by Chaos sorcery.
Then there's the Night of the Wolf. Angron defeats Russ in personal combat but the wolves surround him. They could have gunned him down at leisure but chose not to. In fact Angron would have been killed by the Nails if he hadn't become a daemon.
>>44732051 >Then how come Russ was able to shrug off psychic attacks like mosquito bites
His magic runic armour. At the time of the Heresy the Ultramarines are noted as having magic be their weak spot because they simply don't believe in it. Though their powerful wills provide them with some protection.
>>44732325 >They fought Kurze together. Guilliman was never clearly outmatched by the Lion. You can't really tell that unless they fought against each other. Lion on the other hand did beat (or at least draw, depending on how you wanna look at it) Russ.
>>44732273 It's what Adamantium Will represents. Sufficiently devout or focused individuals can resist psychic attack to some extent. Marines of all people should fit that criterion, especially if they've recently received a vicious backstab to motivate them.
>>44732357 >You can't really tell that unless they fought against each other.
Not really. If one is clearly outmatched then it would be easy to tell. But he very obviously kept pace with the Lion while Kurze just danced through them easily because his precog was in super overdrive.
>>44732412 Considering they were both getting rekt, differences would be a little harder to spot. All we can conclude out of that fight is that a precognitive psychpath can only be effectively countered by an undying lunatic.
>>44732353 >Lion held back on Luther much like the Emperor did with Horus, Gulliman had no such reservations and still got his ass kicked.
Horus didn't and Dorn didn't and they both met their respective fates. Also, Lion didn't hold back. Luther was empowered enough to match him and ended up severely wounding him with a psychic attack. Horus never matched the Emperor and as soon he decided to use his full power Horus was dead instantly.
>>44732588 >Also, Lion didn't hold back. Luther was empowered enough to match him and ended up severely wounding him with a psychic attack If I remember my 6E Codex, the Lion went all out at Luther and won, but couldn't bring himself to finish the job. Fortunately for him, it turned out Luther felt the same way.
>>44732588 >Horus didn't and Dorn didn't and they both met their respective fates Well that's because Horus was fighting the FUCKING EMPEROR... Once E money realized how far Horus had fallen he actually tried to kill him and did. As for Dorn, he got zerg rushed by Demons and CSM, that'll do any Primarch in especially one of the weaker ones like Dorn
>>44732648 Regardless of how it went there's still Dorn and Horus being taken out by this or that Chaos contrivance. A primarch getting beaten by a non-primarch and even a non marine is really not that unusual.
>>44732662 >Well that's because Horus was fighting the FUCKING EMPEROR No you dumbshit. Earlier than that, on Davin when he was wounded by Temba and they had to beg secret Chaos cultists to save his life.
>As for Dorn, he got zerg rushed by Demons and CSM Exactly. Killing any Primarch is no big deal. Just stack the odds in your favor. Overwhelming force, some Chaos contrivance... whatever, it's really no big deal.
Again, on the Night of the Wolf, Russ lost the 1v1. However the Wolves surrounded Angron and could have gunned him down at will. In effect, Angron was the one who was spared
>>44728254 >>44722395 Anon is right. Lion was the best general and strategist of the bunch, which is at least grounds for "Up for the Job". However, I don't think he should be any higher because of his severe lack of social skills.
>>44732785 Or that he thought the lesson Angron would take away from beating Russ, but likely dying immediately afterwards was that you can win a battle but lose a war. Angron being Angron, the only lesson he cared to learn was that he could beat Russ in a fight, and possibly that Russ' threats were empty, which really should have been obvious to anyone who knew anything about Angron.
>>44732769 Are we given anything other than the top 4? As far as I know it's Horus, Gulliman, Lion and Russ, then who knows for the rest
Still, Dorn's thing was being the Emp's main strategic reserve, setting up citadels (but not ruling unlike, say, the Iron Warriors), and, as a third, having a bitching fleet (as did the DA and the SoH). It's mentioned that it was Dorn's abrasiveness that lost him his shot at being the Warmaster, but he was nearly as well respected by Big E as Horus
Being 5th best at something (of 18) isn't THAT noteworthy, doesn't mean he wasn't good at it
>>44732872 >Guilliman Guilliman was a better logisitician, almost unquestionably the best of the Primarchs, but I've seen him described as merely competent in tactics, just unbeatable due to the material edge he always brought. The Lion was a great tactician, and both ran successful campaigns, suggesting they're both fine strategists. Really, the two of them together would have finished the Great Crusade in no time at all, so long as the other Primarchs stayed lost, seeing as they're not cut out to work with anyone but possibly each other.
>Alpharius He was a ridiculous showboat who left planets in ruins. Flashy victories, but not dependable or strategically useful ones.
>>44732967 >Guilliman was a better at administrating and managing things as a part of a bigger picture >>44733026 >Guilliman was a better logisitician, almost unquestionably the best of the Primarchs, but I've seen him described as merely competent in tactics
I don't know where you're getting that from. Guilliman is stated to be excellent with tactics and strategy. The Ultramarines are said to have the finest military wisdom in the Imperium and Guilliman is all but unrivaled.
>>44732967 >>44733026 If you know your history it seems like Gulliman is General Sherman. Sherman wasn't a great tactician but he would often for his enemy to retreat because the other army would find itself out flanked without a shot being fired.
>>44732980 The old DA codex said Horus had the most victories, followed by the Lion, Russ, Guilliman, and Khan, not necessarily in that order. It goes on the say that the Lion had more victories than Russ and suggested he was second overall. It is stated elsewhere that the Ultras brought the most worlds into compliance, presumably making Guilliman second or third, but that's conjecture; there were a lot of Orks who needed a beating out there. Dorn was well regarded, so he's probably in 6-9.
>>44733092 Did I write that Guiliman was bad with tactics or strategy? He was simply better with logistics and administration, and of course still great with tactics, but it is stated in many books that the Lion was actually the best tactician.
>>44733158 >and Khan That one I didn't know. I'd guess Ferrus was also up there after those 5, given how he led one of the early fleets, like Horus did - Gulliman certainly liked him most of the three that got BTFO at Istvaan, though I'm guessing he was more about raw strength than strategy
Yeah the Compliance vs Victories is a confusing thing - I can't imagine, say, the Death Guard or World Eaters being particularly high on the former, but the latter is another matter entirely.
>>44733180 A lot of people seem to think "not the best" = absolute trash, worst ever
>>44733451 Most worlds into compliance was the Ultras. Most victories of any kind was Horus, what with his head start and high-quality generalship. The Lion may or may not have been second to Horus, either the codex was unclear or I've forgotten.
>>44732811 >He got beat with a Nurgle blade, same reason Gulliamn is dead now. And Guilliman got beat by some sorcery Kor Phaeron wielded. It amounts to the same thing really - an advantage that the primarchs can't match.
>>44714344 Many did actually. Conrad was supposed to be a judge of the Impertium, Magnus was to run the webway, Sanguinius a governor and Guilliman was to keep the Imperium's forces strong and dilligent so they wouldn't get lazy. Each Primarch had a role that they somewhat took on when they were discovered. Unfortunately, many were in fact corrupted or didn't have the proper training since the Emperor wasn't able to raise them.
Why are people even trying to argue that Guilliman wasn't the best? We all know the type of fluff the ultras have, they're the best at everything they attempt and just generally the greatest people in the history of the universe. Of course Guilliman got the most worlds. This is the 40K we'll have to make do with.
OK then how does it follow that he's not right to be Warmaster? At the very top of the military pyramid, he's spending nearly all his time on logistics and administration and pan-galactic strategy.
The strategy and tactics of an individual battle-- let alone how he does with a power sword and bolter in a fight himself-- has nothing to do with the job of Warmaster. Except insofar as it earns the respect of his fellow Primarchs. Fortunately, as you point out, he's above average even in those skills.
I actually don't like the ultrasmurfs because they really are overpowered... but that is the very reason he'd have been perfect as Warmaster.
Let's say that, in addition to everything else, he was also a great guitarist. Like, even better a guitarist than he is a warrior. Does that automatically disqualify him from being Warmaster then?
The position demands the best leader for the job. The fact that he'd also be good in other, lesser positions is immaterial.
There would have been only two people with more power in the Imperium: Malcador and the Emperor Himself. Given that they're perfect for their own jobs, and that nobody else is better than Gulliman at the job of Warmaster, then that's the job he should have gotten.
>>44733623 While it's somewhat true, I want to smack Matt Long for making Guilliman a mary sue when he was actually very human in his mannerisms.
Also I think another reason Guilliman got the most worlds was because he was known to be humble to humans, probably from his upbringing under his stepmother. This way, the worlds he conquered wouldn't rebel. His tactics and way he handled the worlds he claimed made it so he got some of the most worlds.
>>44733644 You seem to be missing a vital point that would have influence the Emperors decision and thats that for the most part every single Primarch had a positive opinion of Horus. Besides that one favored brother everyone had rivalries with someone or another.
>>44733740 No the reason he had the second most worlds (Horus was #1) was because he was able to hand deliver Ultramar to the Imperium without a fight. He lucked out by landing where he landed while other Primarchs actually had to fight to claim their world
>>44733776 But Ultramar wasn't Five Hundred Worlds when the Emperor showed up to claim his son, it was only several. Guilliman was seventh to be found, the previous six had certainly conquered the equivalent of then-Ultramar by the time he took control of the XIII.
To me, that makes him a less than perfect choice. Your biggest fear when you put the military all under one guy is that they'll be more loyal to him than you and then that guy will rebel. It's the story of history.
I'd rather have someone competent, someone who can effectively do the job, but NOT someone who can turn the army into his personal cult of personality.
This way, my underlings still compete for my favor, and should I need to remove the Warmaster there will always be people eager to replace him.
>>44733644 >OK then how does it follow that he's not right to be Warmaster? Because despite the name of the title there's a lot more to it than just war. You have to make the other 17 dipshits get along, handle all politics between the legions and the Council of Terra not to mention that being a good diplomat is important as well. Oh and to make matters worse, since you are being placed in direct command over your brothers you have to respected by them on a personal level not just as a commander.
Guilliman, while an excellent military commander is clearly not on good terms with most primarchs, especially the Word Bearers. When your 2 biggest legions actively despise each especially with the whole Monarchia thing then the last thing you want is to make either of them the boss.
At the end of the day, every primarch was good at war but not everyone can manage this shitshow overflowing with enormous egos
>>44733757 Favourable or Neutral, and Horus's ability to work with even the most difficult primarchs really sealed the deal - Lion, Guilliman and Pert all had at least a little beef with him being selected, but it wasn't enough to foul it up, whereas Horus could work with Khan, Curze, Morty and Angron better than anyone else - and given that Alpharius metaphorically flipped off Horus at least once god knows what would have happened if Guilliman had been given the position
>>44733784 In the Unremembered Empire, where you see Guilliman without as much of a combat role, you see he's can be humble, emotional and extremely open compared to another brother who was in it, the Lion. Despite what /tg/ says, it's not a half bad book when you see Guilliman dealing with a day to day agenda of trying to keep Ultramar alive in the chaos storms.
Ok so now Gulliman's problem is that he ISN'T a good administrator? Because resolving organizational politics is what being an administrator is all about.
You're circling the drain, opponents of Gulliman. Time for your arguments to drop down into the sewer with the other shit. He's a mary sue, nobody denies it, but that very mary-suishness is why he's the best candidate for Warmaster.
>Gulliman was a great fighter BTFO by a non astartes Word Bearer >Gulliman was the best tactician Lion and Horus confirmed better >Gulliman won the most victories Horus and Lion and most likely Russ won more >Gulliman brought the most worlds into compliance Again that was Horus, Lion would have had more also if he was able to gift the Emperor an interstellar empire like Rowboat was
>>44733997 No, he can't interpersonal for shit - sure, he's dealing with assholes with egos the size of planets, but all the administrating, rule-making and organising isn't worth the parchment it's written on if half the guys don't respect him enough to do what he says
There's one primarch who doesn't get on with Horus (Corax), but Guilliman would be lucky to have half of them - hell, even post-heresy one of the guys he most liked working with (Russ) didn't listen to him, and Dorn wasn't too far behind.
He can organise those sufficiently far beneath him just fine, but with his brothers he's just not personal enough - and that's without the Word Bearers/Alpha Legion issues
>>44733997 Not even him, but stop clutching at straws. His administrative skills do not help him with his fellow primarchs. They all talk shit to each other. The only ones that didn't, were probably Horus, Sanguinius and maybe Vulkan - everyone else pissed off each other to some degree. Placing Guilliman as Warmaster would have had Lorgar flying off the rails day one.
>>44734025 For the last Emperor-damned time, Guilliman brought the most worlds into compliance. Period. Regardless of the 500 Worlds, he did, and your insistence on parroting a verifiably wrong statement is doing immeasurable harm to your argument. Horus had the most victories, and the Lion may have beaten Guilliman in that area too, but that was purging xenos, not integrating humans. If you must continue your shrieking, get your facts right.
>>44733997 >Ok so now Gulliman's problem is that he ISN'T a good administrator? Administration is not interpersonal communication with other Primarchs. Jesus fucking christ you are infinitely dense.
It's easy to administer people who are boundlessly loyal to you and obey without question and in any case beneath you. Try administering a group of demigods who disobey order on a regular basis, have their own agendas and half of whom hate you.
>>44734245 I don't think that has any chance of working. Lorgar has hated him for decades and Guilliman must have been aware how much Lorgar resented being humiliated at Monarchia. For him to do a complete 180 the moment Guilliman became the key to power in the Imperium would be pretty suspect.
Your logic is flawed. No matter how few times it occurred, the fact that the Emperor's policy was 'join us or die' is proof enough that the Imperium is no different from any other conquering nation in human history. The Imperium has no moral high ground, and the fact that Angron was the one the Emperor sent to butcher the innocent planets who refused to join reinforces Angron's arguments that the justice and goodness of the Imperium is a bold-faced lie meant to fool the people and the primarchs into serving it willingly.
>>44734373 How the fuck would you want to UNITE THE GALAXY? By treating with xenos and other mutant infested worlds? It's what whole Great Crusade is, help rejoin those who wish to be with us, defeat those who do not but are worthy enough to, and totally annihilate anyone/anything that is a threat to humanity or it's unity. And destroying some innocent planets can be justified in the same way as the Inquisition justifies it's actions in the 40th millenium.
Maybe the premise of uniting the galaxy is flawed to begin with, since it necessitates killing someone, somewhere, who doesn't want to be united and wants to maintain their independence.
>By treating with xenos and other mutant infested worlds?
Many xeno races were perfectly peaceful and did not enslave nor abuse humans living among them. They were slaughtered for the sole reason that the Emperor would not tolerate alternative points of view from his own. It's made abundantly clear that there were plenty of planets that were not mutant colonies and had no xenos on them that were still massacred just to ensure they entered the Imperial fold.
>It's what whole Great Crusade is, help rejoin those who wish to be with us, defeat those who do not but are worthy enough to, and totally annihilate anyone/anything that is a threat to humanity or it's unity.
You say this as if that somehow makes it all okay.
>And destroying some innocent planets can be justified in the same way as the Inquisition justifies it's actions in the 40th millenium.
You can never justify war or the deaths of innocents.
>>44734373 >No matter how few times it occurred, the fact that the Emperor's policy was 'join us or die' is proof enough that the Imperium is no different from any other conquering nation in human history. That's just absurd. Forcibly conquering a handful of stubborn people is no way similar to doing so to everyone and declaring compliance to the Imperium as "slavery" is even stupider
>and the fact that Angron was the one the Emperor sent to butcher the innocent planets Angron chose his own tactics as did every other primach. The Emperor asked for compliance - how you do it is your own business. Angron delivered annihilation when he was in fact asked for much less.
Angron took every excuse he could to be as vicious and murderous as possible and then turned around to shift blame to someone else. Shit, even other Imperial commander complained about the Eaters just being too much.
>>44734582 I'm sorry, are we in a Warhammer thread, a universe where you bomb a planet because it was deemed corrupted by the presence of one cult? What do you want to show me? If we look at it from the moral and nowadays point of view then sure, boo hoo, innocents and others die, such is life, and so is human nature, to simply kill, with or without good reason. In Warhammer it simply is a mean to unite Humanity, the race that maybe could be deemed "good" if the Great Crusade succedeed. But then again, the whole point of Warhammer is that there are no good guys, so it's kind of weird that you put up the fact of war as a bad thing or the deaths of innocent beings..
>>44734582 >You can never justify war or the deaths of innocents.
A united humankind would have been able to ascend to a psychic race quickly and completely removed the influence of Chaos from the warp and the galaxy. That sounds like it justifies a whole lot. Especially since those people who wouldn't join were going to get mauled by daemons when they died regardless of their actions if they didn't join the Imperium, the decision seems obvious.
>>44734582 >Maybe the premise of uniting the galaxy is flawed to begin with, since it necessitates killing someone, somewhere, who doesn't want to be united and wants to maintain their independence.
That's a load of shit and you know it. A disunited galaxy would have been destroyed now or at very least dominated by Orks.
>Many xeno races were perfectly peaceful and did not enslave nor abuse humans living among them. You have a grand total of 1 example - the Interex - and even there humans were dominant with xenos being a minority
>They were slaughtered for the sole reason that the Emperor would not tolerate alternative points of view from his own. So you don't know the fluff. The Emperor wants to wipe out all xenos because at the beginning of the Ago of Strife all those "perfectly peaceful" Xenos turned on Mankind in their moment of weakness and destroyed and/or enslaved many human worlds.
>You can never justify war or the deaths of innocents. That's utterly stupid.
>>44734582 >You can never justify war or the deaths of innocents. So you're here spouting naive absolutes as the sole truth, but also believe the Emperor is wrong for saying his point of view is the only correct one? Very good. Anyway, death and war can very easily be justified. Here, I'll do it: >We need a giant unified Imperium of Man which includes our species' entire united strength to be able to stand up to horrific threats like the Necrons, Chaos and Tyranids. This outweighs the petty personal desires of some random individuals of little consequence in the long run.
>>44734105 >all the administrating, rule-making and organising isn't worth the parchment it's written on if half the guys don't respect him enough to do what he says
>>44734146 >His administrative skills do not help him with his fellow primarchs.
>>44734205 >Administration is not interpersonal communication with other Primarchs. Jesus fucking christ you are infinitely dense.
Have any of you ever administered anything? Like, ever? I mean more than botching the night shift at McDonalds, I mean really commanding a unit. Managing people and understanding how to interact with personalities is a crucial administrative skill. The fact that you don't know that, the fact that you think galactically huge egos only exist with primarchs, shows that you're terminally neck-bearded social lepers.
The very traits that made gulliman so successful make him a perfect warmaster. The fact that you can't see that, the fact that you're so blinded by your (understandable) resentment of the Ultramarines, shows that you're not fit to command a rowboat in a bathtub.
>>44734916 >The fact that you don't know that, the fact that you think galactically huge egos only exist with primarchs, shows that you're terminally neck-bearded social lepers.
Sure thing retard, managing 5 dipshits at the office in 21st century Earth is the same as managing 17 demigods in 31st millennium techno feudalism. Oh, and those demigods are so full of themselves that they're willing to start swinging axes at you if piss them off, warmaster or not
>>44735126 How in the fuck do you make a Knights of the Round scenario in a GALACTIC EMPIRE where most of the members will be unable to contact each other for any number of reasons and when many members will never even want to speak to their brothers? All the Emperor needed was someone to temporarily keep all the Primarchs crusading effectively as he finished the Webway.
>>44730569 I imagine a lot had to do with the books focus mostly on warriors and soldiers stuff so it seems like they were conquering most worlds for the speed the imperium was going diplomatically annexing worlds probably happened more then conquest because the benefits it would bring
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