>>44709525 >Emperor uses Atheism 101 arguments to defend his work Le crusades were bad, that's why I'm starting a crusade doesn't hold a candle. Philosophers have not been wasting paper for centuries for you to use "priests touch kiddies in the wee-wee" against religion. Seriously that is the problem with not god-like genius people trying to write god-like genius characters. They just can't.
Emperor thinks he leads mankind into a better future but in reality not only he uses the very same methods as people he despised but also can't really justify it just like the Imperium became everything he hated he was pretty much the blind zealot he wanted to save the world from
>>44709525 >Also proof that Emperor is retarded Considering his arguments could be easily rebuked by people I know and century-old theologians, yeah, he's very retarded. Who wrote this went far beyond his skill.
Also, there was a a kinda-battle. Thunder warriors massacred many thousands of rebels.
That said, it wasn't really dark. There are far darker stories on Discworld, also related to religion and atheism, but Pratchett doesn't make a point of it like Warhammer tries to. >The elves had killed the fish in the pond. Eventually.
>>44711533 Certainly. He knows that a single detailed drama may move more feelings than millions of casualities.
In this particular story, it's also important that while Pratchett is clearly an atheist, he's inteligent and knows that instead of blaming scapegoats like religion, videogames, drugs or ideologies, the actual guilty are people themselves.
>BL will never create more stories that aren't about war but exploration, ideologies, factions and history >BL will never do series about other interesting happenings like Age of Apostasy or Age of Strife but will keep milking HH
>>44711623 I mean, yeah the irony of the Emperor's justification for his actions is supposed to be the point of the story. You have correctly identified that. This thread is mostly about how Graham McNeill does a poor job of presenting that point and mostly ends up just making the Emperor look dumb as fuck.
>>44709525 >Proof that you can make a dark story without any battles, torture or Chaos corruption. Also proof that Emperor is retarded. Reminder the author met Dawkins and presented the story as proof that intelligence wins over religion.
>>44709525 I know it's a bretty bad short story, but I interpret it in a way that makes it unintentionally cool. I posted it recently aaaand, year, here's pasta.
As per my headcanon (partially confirmed in Outcast Dead), our God-Emperor has foreseen the eventual outcome of the Great Crusade - including the betrayal of half his sons and his own death and reign on the Golden Throne as a God. Being a mind of rationality and deeper understanding, he saw that inevitable outcome as rather despicable. So he came to the Last Church left on Earth - not to gloat over religion, but to listen to rhetoric of a God's man. Knowing that one day the Imperium will be going on nothing but faith, he wanted the priest to at least attempt to give Him faith and make Him believe, while He hardly did, but needed that faith more than ever. So He threw straw arguments as to see priest's beliefs in a challenge without utterly crushing him with a superior intellect, in hope of getting some of that resolve for Himself. The Emperor knew himself to be right, but hoped to be proven wrong by the priest, so that it would be easier for him to go through the Great Crusade and eventual Heresy.
>>44712924 His stories could be read as stand alones but many of them were parts of series and the vast majority of them were part of a shared setting, the Discworld.
Which to recommend is difficult.
There is different tone between works. Small Gods is very different to Pyramids and The Truth despite them being part of the same setting and self contained.
One of my personal favourite is Carpe Jugulem but it is part of the Witches series and my favourite series is the Death series for the later books. This is not to say the early books of Death or the other books about the Witches were bad. Indeed they were very good and brought me to tears and outrageous laughter at different points.
For a stand alone introduction to the series I would recommend Moving Pictures.
Many people would recommend the Watch series because it has what many consider the best selection of characters.
>>44719856 Patched up? Quite probable. Also likely the author didn't want to quite identify it as catholic, and perhaps didn't even research into sects.
I used franciscan friars as example because those guys go preaching into the slums and really get a "hands-down" kind of preaching, like acknowledging apocryphal prostitute saints which the church never would admit. It's a whole other christianism which one never finds out in the internet or with the autistic faithful which go on discussing minuatie and canon just like /tg/ does with warhammer.
Even so, it still seems the story's priest never had to deal with kids asking the impertinent questions. Little buggers have leaps of logic which can really trouble adults.
>"It's not as simple as that. It's not a black-and-white issue. There are so many shades of gray." >"There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is." >"It's a lot more complicated than that-" >"No. It ain't. When people say things are more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts." >"Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes-" >"But they starts with thinking about people as things…"
Chaos got nothing on Granny Weatherwax. They're lucky she isn't an inquisitor in warhammer.
See, I always thought that the fact that where the physical might of the Emperor and his sons failed, mere belief suffices was supposed to be the supreme irony of the Heresy:
1. Emps says "IMPERIAL TRUTH WILL SAVE US FROM CHAOS!" 2. Lorgar says "No, religion is important! Here, I wrote this book." 3. Emps says "Papa Smurf, BTFO this faggot." 4. Lorgar falls, takes half of the universe with him. Emps gets coma'ed. 5. Lorgar's book (that is, the psychic gestalty stuff created by the veneration of the Emperor by the Imperium) ends up being what protects us from Chaos for 10k years and counting.
Proof that you can never, ever, go broke underestimating Black Library authors and editors.
>>44725688 >You're assuming HH authors can do irony. I don't. That flow of events predates the HH series though. They just elaborated on it. >>44722231 I'm still at a loss trying to wrap my head around just exactly how he thought being reasonable in an inherently unreasonable universe would help.
Like, it works in a setting like Delta Green (or even the Mythos proper) because being sane makes you incapable of understanding the shit that wants you dead and the shit that might make you dead on accident through your understanding of it, but the 40k galaxy just doesn't work that way.
Hell, even his other laws were full retard. Grey Knights? Psykers. SoB? FAITH-powered nun guns who IIRC get/got the strongest bennies to their Deny The Witch roll in the tabletop.
Remember, its not fanaticism if there's no religion in it.
>>44721539 If she were an Inquisitor she would be a horror as much to the Imperium as Chaos and Xenos. She would be the equal and opposite to Abaddon, rallying huge hordes to slam into the Cadian Gate just as he was coming the other way and fucking his shit up by sheer bloody-mindedness.
And woe upon any Imperial not doing their part in His name. Inquisitor Weatherwax does not grant exceptions.
>>44712105 I'm the guy you responded to. You want a explication?: -McNeil is, to my knowledge, the first author who made the Emperor a huge fucking autist who wants to destroy religion because religion is evil guize. -McNeil makes the GEOM bring arguments so easy to counterargue that they're covered in your first year in seminary and acts like they're the ultimate checkmate for religion. -McNeil seems to have similar opinions IRL, seeing that he's a drooling Dawkins fanboy who gave the poofter a copy of the very book we are talking about after attending one of his atheist talks. -Pic related.
>>44728320 I think it's BECAUSE he's psychic that he can't understand. Reading people's minds is the easy mode of social interaction, and somebody who plays on easy is never going to master the game. It's like snatching the answer sheet for a math test; sure, you know exactly what responses to give to receive the desired result, but you haven't actually learned how to do math.
The Emperor was a being of focus and drive. He had a goal, and everything he did was to advance that goal. As a result, he neglected taking the time to understand the Why's of his methods in favor of determining the How's.
Sure, he probably picked up some degree of social insight, just as someone who cheats on a thousand tests will recognize patterns between questions and answers, but because it came from a million casual observations rather than a thousand close studies, his understanding was flawed, inconsistent, and largely unproven. After all, he never needed to use it, so why sit down and check if he's right? There's other work to do.
Ultimately, the Emperor was much better at working with crowds than with one person. You don't need to convince everybody in a crowd perfectly, just most of them mostly so. They'll do the rest of the convincing themselves. With one person, though, you need to do the whole job, and as the Primarchs show, the Emperor couldn't.
>Emprah disowns and destroys the church he founded >Church is refounded anyway without all the progress it made to not be a bunch of murderous zealots, which was the reason he disowned and destroyed it
>>44728529 Just him, I think. The others weren't nearly as powerful, for one thing, so they'd have to do things the hard way more often. They also usually weren't so focused on one thing, so they branched out more.
>>44729744 The whole idea of "the Emperor is such an autist because he just mindrapes everyone into licking his arse anyways" is actually both interesting, and perfectly in line with 40k's dark cynicism. Such a shame that they don't actually take that route.
>>44728529 Most perpetuals seemed to just try and live their life, and as far as I can glean, in some cases tried to actively forget their past experiences.
I hate the perpetual shit though. It makes the Emperor less special, and for what? A few side characters that barely impact the lore and will never show up again. Even the Grey Knight perpetual - the only one in modern 40k that we know of - has gone missing.
>>44732868 >the only one in modern 40k that we know of - has gone missing
He hasn't gone missing.
He is mentioned in the recent Sanctus Reach novels featuring the Grey Knights. Ku'Gath still holds a grudge against him.
Anyways, Alivia Sureka is an interesting Perpetuals due to her close relationship with the Emperor and her past with him. She appeared in "Vengeful Spirit" and "Wolf Mother". She is heading to Terra to meet up with Malcador and the Emperor.
Thanks to her inclusion into the story we finally know the dark secret behind the Emperor's powers.
>>44732948 And they could do pretty damn well for themselves, and if you wanted you could make your own Sensei and forge a narrative about a superhuman figure.
All the Perpetuals really do is take that, throw away the Emperor bits, and tie it to an alien cabal. Oh and Vulkan gets it to for some fucking reason where all the other kiddos didn't, when the Emperor had planned to raise all his primarch-sons himself and not have them be tainted Chaos energies on a journey through the Warp as babies. The Emperor should just do things without any fucking logic, of course - don't even try to wink and go on about mysteries, he's just a dumbass.
>>44733027 I cannot accept the 'Emperor got his powers from daemons' bullshit. I'm sorry that makes me an autistic faggot to get so worked up about lore, but goddamn, if that isn't the stupidest shit to try and make Chaos not really the evil guys.
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