>>44699398 >"mee-lee" Correct this is wrong. >"mar-kwiss" What the fuck is this even supposed to be? Marquis? >"litch" How else do you pronounce it? >"teefling" See above. "Tie-fling"? >"ass-imar" I mean, it's a very slight difference from the correct pronunciation. >"why-erm" I agree.
My biggest one is people saying "Side-Real" when they say sidereal.
It is very common in Russian to use the word "милишник" (mee-lee-shnik) in MMOs and other games for a character focusing on close combat. However, here we usually don't even know a thing about English, let alone French.
Lijk or lik all have very hard sounds that could have shifted into a t through the ages.
It's conceivable that they pronounced it 'Lick' originally, but some bozo just like you said "but where's the 'ch', the german version has a 'ch'" and they'd pronounce it Lick-ch and that eventually shifted into 'litch'.
tl; dr: It's a medieval word, do you even know how different middle English was from modern English.
>>44706620 He has a point though. Before the great vowel shift liche would have been "leecheh" and and līc would have been something like "liik". In areas of England that weren't touched by the shift (like Cornwall, IIRC), it will have a very different pronunciation, one closer to Middle English and the Modern corruption of the word.
i dont know where thr name litchfield comes from. i guess its a city in America near a place where a battle with many deaths happend. Anyway i am german and we dont pronounce it lick. its like leiche we dont say leike either.
>>44699551 >Literally never heard of that word before. It's the title for the holder of a march, which is a type of borderland feudal holding that usually trades off increased military duties for fewer duties or greater independence in other areas.
Alternately you can use margrave or marcher lord which will provoke far fewer arguments about pronunciation.
Oh wait, no I wasn't wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages
>As a technical term, the "high" in High German is a geographical reference to the group of dialects that forms "High German" (i.e. "Highland" German), out of which developed Standard German, Yiddish and Luxembourgish. It refers to the Central Uplands (Mittelgebirge) and Alpine areas of central and southern Germany, it also includes Luxembourg, Austria, Liechtenstein and most of Switzerland. This is opposed to Low German, which is spoken on the lowlands and along the flat sea coasts of the North German Plain.
>>44706823 Yeah except you're wrong about high german being standard german, standard german is low german because mountains are generally not where a centralizing state is enforcing a standard from. Also, dutch is pretty much completely distinct from low german and actually descended from what the franks spoke.
So you were right in that the terms you were using exist but completely wrong about what they mean.
Ah, gotcha. Though basically every language course I ever followed had Dutch emerging from Niederdeutsch though, even the wikipedia page you linked showed a ton of Dutch dia- and regiolects that descended from Niederdeutsch.
Otherwise I was indeed wrong about the Low and high divide.
>>44706913 This huge variety of dialects exist BECAUSE they're not dutch, if they were dutch they'd have been replaced by standard dutch but because they're german outside of germany they can stay as a huge variety of dialects in a tiny area.
>>44706951 Yeah i'm pretty sure that's not how.. anyone else uses low german. I'm pretty sure the current thoughts on the family tree go west german splits into high, low, old franconian and anglo-frisian.
>>44706988 >>44707047 Here, let's look at a map of the dutch low saxon languages you're claiming are dutch. Look at how they're not actually spoken in more than half of the netherlands. Dutch is spoken throughout the netherlands.
>>44707132 As far as I know, there are no languages which have pauses within a word. Pauses only exist between phrase boundaries, and where a speaker is uncertain. So, no pause. But it could be that you're actually talking about stress or vowel length. Maybe you could show me examples of the different pronunciations or upload them to vocaroo so I can give you a more detailed answer.
>>44707191 >Scandinavian is one language Dvärgar (Americans, pronounce it 'dveryar' and you should only inspire mild nausea in native speakers) is the plural form of the Swedish word for dwarf, and certainly does not include any g sounds. As for the other four or five languages with the same roots, I couldn't say.
>>44707191 As a German, that's not how you pronounce ch at all. It's actually pronounced like you would pronounce Litch, except without the t obviously. http://imtranslator.net/translate-and-speak/speak/german/
>>44707191 except it also exists independently, if archaically, (well, not really independently since they probably both got it back from all the way in proto-germanic) from old English, so you can't just look at how it's pronounced in german. It basically mirrors the development of rich, and thus should rhyme with rich And i dunno about you but i've never NOT heard rich pronounced ritch.
>>44699803 Likely the correct pronunciation. It's been made a running a gag and by now even the game developers refuse to give a straight answer as for how it's done, but researching the likely etymology of the word reveals it.
Drow almost certainly comes from trow, a type of fairy being from the mythology of the Orkneys known for being pitch-black and living in great kingdoms underground. The trow are rich and make magical artifacts, but also extremely evil. They are known to kidnap and take slaves.
The word "trow" itself comes from the word "troll". It has been re-appropriated from the Scandinavians back when they invaded the Isles. This is how you know that it's pronounced "Trow" like "throw", rather than, say, like "now".
Drow are trow, therefore, drow is pronounced like "throw", but with a D.
The German "ch" is a sound that doesn't exist in English. It's pronounced way back in the throat, like the Scottish "loch" or the Hebrew "challah." Since there's no English equivalent, go ahead and pronounce "lich" however you want.
"Tiefling," however, comes from the German word "tief" for "deep," referring to the lower planes. It is in fact pronounced like "teef"
>>44699398 >Tiefling >Tief+Ling >Tief: German word meaning deep >Ling: as a suffix, means something akin to "denizen of" (ie: Earthling) >Tief is pronounced Teef in German Why wouldn't I pronounce it teefling?
>>44711069 You're allowed but not required. Honestly, everyone pronounces it "litch," aside from a few people who pronounce it "lish," and those are both good enough. If you start breaking out the uvular fricatives your table is going to look at you funny.
>>44707191 >Duergar and Drow are Scandinavian, so it's actually pronounced "Dway-ger" and "Drough". except Drow is not Scandinavian, Dark Elves ARE Scandinavian, except in Scandinavian folklore they are called 'Svartalfa' not Drow. I suspect wizards made up the name 'Drow' because its easier to pronounce than Svartalfa.
>>44711265 In what context? If you were running an Avatar game, that's not the place to be breaking out the authentic Chinese phonemes, considering that the correct way to pronounce Aang is the most Americlap way possible.
it's really a bad transliteration - the norse rune equivalent to "th" looks like a d, and somehow instead of spelling it "Nithoggr" it got written down in a translation as "Nidhoggr" instead and it became standardised like that.
>>44699398 As much as I would love to criticize this guy, I do have an obscure GM rule that players can't play races or classes with names I cannot pronounce. but it has not come up as no one as-of-yet has shown interest in playing a Svirfnblin, I seriously have no idea how this name is pronounced, I mean did the guy just face-smash the keyboard when typing the name?
>>44713277 Guess the publisher of the material just made a quick and cheap book. I was in one of the first years under a new schooling system that cut out an entire year. Implementations were handled rather poorly.
And by that I mean "Oh shit, we made an administrative error that disqualified all the good students from graduating" or "Sorry you have four 8 to 5 school days a week, you also have to pay on your own for transportation now".
People wanted that shit gone asap, but the inabillity of our politicians to admit mistakes is still keeping it in place.
>>44699637 >Not having 5 subraces of wyrm associated with domains of philosophical thought >the why-erms, what-erms, who-erms, when-erms and where-erms. >Lore tells of a sixth race, the How-erms, undone by their own desire to discover without heed of reason.
>>44711040 >The German "ch" is a sound Wrong. It is a digraph, a combination of two letters. It is realized as /ç/, /x/ or /χ/ depending on context (and dialect). In the case of Lich, it would be pronounced /ç/. >that doesn't exist in English. Wrong. Most English dialects realize "huge" as /çudʒ/, so even though it is no separate phoneme, your language has the sound. >It's pronounced way back in the throat, Wrong. /ç/ is a palatal sound, produced in the same spot as /j/, or /i/. /x/ is velar (in the same spot as /k/ and /g/) and /χ/ is uvular, which is still at the very top of the throat. >like the Scottish "loch" Wrong. That word is pronounced /ɫ̪ɔx/ and doesn't include /ç/.
Stop spouting your superficial knowledge on the web.
I find the difference to be kind of pitch/tonal related.
I don't know the dialectical alphabet, but I know acting dialect, which focuses on movements and framing so stick with me here: "Worm" has a shorter vowel sound than "wurm", with the latter having a more pronounced shifting of the lower jaw when making the "er".
"Wyrm", on the other hand, is the same sound, with the lips shifted upward. Almost like you're trying to get peanut butter out of your upper lip.
That system gets me differences that are notable to the ear, but aren't big shining signs of a letter shift.
>>44714516 And what does all that have to do with pitch and tone? I mean, aside from the fact that no language in the world actually uses jaw shifting and peanut butter removal attempts as phonological distinctions.
>>44714417 A digraph can be a single phoneme, which is what we're talking about. /χ/ is certainly a single sound even if it's usually written with two letters.
And anyway, the very premise that English has to use the German pronunciation of "lich" is flawed from the start. The English "lich" and the German "Leiche" may be cognates, but "lich" is not a recently borrowed word. It's been in English since Old English over a thousand years ago, and back then it was "lic."
I meant that the base tongue movements are the same, you're still initially making the word "worm", you're just shifting the sound of vowel using your lips and jaw, so the result could also pass for a simple regional pronunciation of 'worm'. It's not that the letters/words are distinctly changing, all three sound 'the same' unless the speaker is emphasizing or the listener is already aware of the distinction.
I put the pitch/tonal in there because I honestly don't know which it is, or even if either is right. For some reason my brain just does not get the idea of the various words meaning "shifts/differences in sounds". Like the difference between pitches, tones, notes, and timbres. I know they're all things, and can make general observations: Tones tend to mean 'emotion', Pitches relate to the "height" of the sounds, Notes are specific pitches that are pleasingly resonant, And...I no longer remember what distinguishes a timbre. The general vibrational quality of a voice?
But the points of difference don't make sense to my brain. It doesn't 'get' them in an infuriating way. It's especially upsetting given the number of musicals I've had to perform in.
But yeah, the point I was making is that, at the core, Worm=wurm=wyrm, but the placement of the lips and jaw during the vowel shift the sound in a way that is noticeable, but not a clear shift.
I don't know. Like I said, it's weird.
Sometimes, I feel like I took that one Shadowrun flaw where you have a 0 in a skill and can't raise it, and somehow convinced the DM that it was fine to put it in musical theory, without taking penalties to perform checks. I can MAKE notes, I just don't understand them in a sonic sense.
>>44714982 Okay, I'll try to clear some things up. Vowels are distinguished by three primary qualities: Height, backness and rounding. Height has nothing to do with pitch. It's determined by how wide or narrow the space between tongue and palate is when the vowel is pronounced. This moves a vowel up or down on the IPA trapezoid posted here: >>44706954 /a/ is a low vowel and /i/ is a high vowel. Backness determines how far back or forth the tongue moves for the vowel's pronunciation. /e/ is a front vowel and /o/ is a back vowel. Roundedness addresses how rounded the lips are. There's usually only a distinction between rounded and unrounded, such as in German between /i/ and /y/. Then of course there are nasal vowels, different voicings, vowel quantity (temporal length) and some other stuff. None of this has anything to do with pitch, tone, or timbre.
There are languages which use different tones (notes) or tone countours as distinctive features, for example Mandarin. English is no such language.
>>44714982 >>44715193 It is very unlikely that there is actually a phonemic distinction between worm and wyrm. If there was one, it could actually be pin-pointed and expressed in linguistic terms. Many people have certain intuitions stemming from a word's orthography, so maybe that's what happened here.
None of those qualities exactly hits the point of the difference for me. I guess it's a more distinct form of roundness. The lips are rounded in all of them, but then is deformed, stretching downward in "wurm" and deformed pressing upward in "wyrm".
>>44715253 Maybe it's a matter of subtle emphasis shift, then. Above is my best explanation.
(Though, going back to a physical approach, the lip shift in worm is closest to attempting to pout mid-vowel sound, the bottom lip jutting into the upper, while the drop in "wurm" is a matter of widening the lips as you make the vowel to a fuller "O".)
>>44717294 A lot of Welsh and Irish words have a lot more vowels and h's than general English speakers are used to.
Sidhe, usige, Aoibhneas, suaimhneas.
It's not impossible to associate the "shape", so to speak, of the word with the language.
>>44717199 I love the progression of words as attitudes and settings change. It's fun to see how a word went from being one thing, to something totally different.
Or stuff like auto-antonyms, words that are their own opposite (Cleave means to split apart, and to adhere to, because two different words merged into one coming into English.), which are part of the larger group contronyms, which are words that have oppository means (I can bolt away from something, or I can bolt it down.)
>>44699398 As has been said already a ton of times, lich, marquis, and tiefling are all actually pronounced like that, you are just being an autist. That said, the others, particularly meelee and wyrm are fucking crazy. You should not play with these people, or educate them immediately. I do however believe they exist, because I have seen it myself.
I was once in a WoW guild (yeah, I know, it was back in university) where the words reagent (rej-int), fiend (fee-eyend), crypt (kreye-pt), and so on were the norm. Also they fucked up lich as well, even though the narrator says it a dozen times in various cutscenes. (Lie-tch king what the fuck).
Not to cast dispersions on any nationalities, but said guild, and the worst perpetrators were primarily people from the southern united states, and australians.
>>44699462 Tie-fling would actually make sense though.
Because it would be a correct pronunciation adapted for the german "teufling" Which would mean something like little devil. Devil-ling And they do have horns. And are sometimes red skinned. And are associated with being evil. And are smaller than actual devils.
>>44721747 OK, that's all well and good, but I largely understand vibration as something felt through an object. I'm pretty good at feeling footsteps of people around me on a hard floor, but I can't feel shit on a carpet. I've learned that I notice earthquakes a good minute and a half sooner than other people, though. I've had people try to explain it as being like patterns in wind, which makes some sense I guess, but that's still something felt with the skin. If sound could be explained in the context of other senses, that'd probably mean I could hear with my other senses. Since I can't, the explanations don't seem to work.
There is no hard and fast line between undead and fairies in traditional lore. Sometimes, fairies were considered the spitrits of the dead (as with Sluagh and Beansidhe) sometimes they were giants or trolls-like monsters, as with Fomors, sometimes they were "elf-like", as with the seelie sidhe. The original term means more like "supernatural creature" than something as specific as an rpg monster type.
>>44721926 >but that's still something felt with the skin Your eardrum is basically skin. Really the best way is to stand in front of a giant speaker. It's a combination of vibration and airpressure, which you will feel there.
And yoou will mostly feel the deep tones. If The vibrations are of a higher frequency (you'll have to experience the changing frequency in front of a huge speaker to know what i mean) the tone is higher. Everything you feel there would be very very deep for everyone with hearing though.
The experience of hearing can really pretty much sufficiently be understood that way. Now comes the synesthesia part.
What you experience there is to full hearing what very strongly hued darker earthly tones are to the full color palette.
I was wrong, I asked a friend who does languages more in depth than I do. So my apologies.
You're partially right.in that I misremembered, it was only an introductory course and we only glimpsed the language origin tables, the class was mostly focused on classification of language etc (De Saussure, perception of languages, archetypes in language visualization etc... probably getting a ton of terms wrong here but it's late).
So we saw a simplified version of the language origin thing, hence the confusion.
>>44721774 Have you never tasted a smell? I admit I've only even had it with disgusting shit but it was an experience. >>44721926 Well sound is literally just vibration, but there's a bone in your ear (your's doesn't function properly that's why you're deaf) that interprets it into a signal which your brain then procceses.
The problem with the explanation is really that you have no concept of sound, which seems silly because that's what is being explained but it can't really be explained because technically sound doesn't exist only vibration. Sound is just the word for the output our brain gives us.
>>44722139 >Have you never tasted a smell? >I admit I've only even had it with disgusting shit but it was an experience Strictly speaking, what you experienced was breathing in suspended particles large enough to register on your taste buds. You didn't taste a smell: you tasted a mist of shit.
It exists between words too, in English it's usually written as a double t in the middle of words like button and mutton, that are pronounced as a pause, not a t sound, in many (most?) English dialects.
>>44726066 With the T unvoiced, right? I mean that's what it seems to be saying, but I have to ask because that's not how I ever hear it pronounced. And "internet porn"? While folks can get a bit lazy with the first T, the second one is very prominent: inner-net porn.
>>44717486 A lot of Welsh and Irish words have a lot more vowels and h's than general English speakers are used to.
They have distinctive orthographies that look ridiculous to English speakers, but they're also much more consistent than English once you know the rules. A sentence in modern Irish looks like someone dropped a fistful of h's in there, but it's almost always there to modify the pronounciation of the preceding consonant, or else to go in front of a word that starts with a vowel if the context requires it. A word like 'sahuagin' stands out as something that would never occur in irish, and if it was imported from another language would probably be written as 'sathaigín' or something.
>>44726217 I meant that (like when one transscribes sentences using IPA) there are literally no pauses within a single sentence, because we don't actually waste time pausing between words - it's all one big jumble of sounds. There are often pauses between sentences though, and within sentences there are glottal stops.
>>44726125 Yeah, "sahuagin" definitely doesn't sound Welsh or Gaelic because you actually pronounce all the letters in "sahuagin." We're talking about the people who pronounce "Samhain" as "Sawin."
Of course, the English are just as bad at skipping over letters, in their case out of sheer laziness rather than because of any unique orthographical rules. There's an English family called Featherstonehaugh and pronounced "Fenshaw."
>>44727912 Well, I'll be damned. I always was of an impression that English is quite conservative in pronunciation when borrowing from, say, Latin or French. Pronounced as 'meh-lay', and I know French; Russian is my native.
In other words, I am a faggot, US wins once again. The previous discussion I lost was about pronouncing 'either'.
That did just occur to me, isn't there a big thing among the deaf that it's "not a disability" or something?
Far be it for me to knock someone for feeling a sense of community, but I dunno, I feel like, say, people born deaf should have it fixed as soon as possible. You can't force adults to do it, of course, but small children? Sure. We do other stuff like heart surgery and shit. It's okay to fix a kid's heart, or their legs, but it's discrimination to fix their ears? I dunno.
>>44721992 >>44722522 >They're very common, they're usually called "stops" or "glottals" and they are the difference between "*blackat" and "black cat". You're probably talking about the glottal stop. Stops are a class of sounds such as p, k, or d, which are characterized by a short but complete interruption of the airflow at a certain location in the vocal tract. Glottals are sounds produced at the glottis, such as /h/ in English "hat".
The glottal stop is not a break, however. It consists of a closure, a short buildup of pressure, and a release of that pressure. It's a normal speech sound and can be found in many languages. It even has phoneme status (that is, its presence or absence changes the meaning of a word) in quite a few languages.
>>44722228 If you're only talking about the historical sound and letters which occured back when English and German were still one language, you're right. If you're talking about the phone [ç] however, it exists in both English and German.
>>44728172 This, along with dropped word initial /h/, are all things that people speaking my language would associate with rural dialects from the north where people don't speak much and when they do they keep it short.
Then again, the people in the south also tend to turn voiceless plosives into voiced plosives and no one ever understands what they are saying.
>>44721132 My original ( >>44711323 ) point still stands, that Dark Elves are not traditionally called "Drow" that was someone in the 20th century's doing because they likely found the traditional name too difficult to pronounce.
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