Ok I'll use my torch to light up the room
>you didn't say you packed torches with you when you left town
>you didn't indicate that you lit the torch before you entered the dungeon
>you didn't inform the gm that you bought a tinderbox to light the torch
>your character is level 1 and doesn't have the torch lighting skill or the proper feat
Why would anyone DO that?
Don't misunderstand, I'm no questioning the notion that it DID happen; I believe it did. There's enough fucktards in this world, some of them MUST be playing /tg/ related stuff...
But what is the mindset behind this sort of shit? what goes through someone's mind where they suppose rolling to BREATHE is "fun"?
Over new years my brother did this exact thing
He literally told me the spell i wanted to use was swedish magic and wouldn't be present in the the arabian nights themed city we were playing in
The swedish spell i wanted to use was magic missile
Fuck. Faith in humanity is lost.
Your brother is a cunt.
Tell him that somebody on the internet thinks he's an absolute cunt!
CALL HIM! Get him on the phone and put the receiver up to the screen! I wish to type angrily at him!!!
Yeah, but the opposite can be just as annoying.
>I use [random item]
But you don't have it on your inventory
>Oh come on, let's just say I had it all along!
Bruh, we're using a rule system for a reason, this isn't a DeviantArt *teleports behind you* game.
Sure, I don't want someone taking a silvered lognsword out of nowhere just because they are facing a werewolf, or a battering ram when they find a locked door.
But neither do I want to roll for dehydration at the end of a day just because I didn't say I filled my waterskin from the brook we found along the road.
>I use my magic staff to cast fireball!
>"You don't have a magic staff"
>LOL WHO CARES ITS JUST A GAME FUCKING AUTISTIC RULES LAWYER FUCKING SHIT IM GONNA MAKE A /tg/ THREAD ABOUT HOW YOUR WRONG FUCK THIS
Yep, happy medium, basic preparations and survival should be mostly automatic unless your players prefer to roleplay that kind of thing. Though on the other hand things like that are opportunities for encounters and such.
It's on my fucking character sheet that I handed a copy to you like you asked, I light a fucking torch and if you give me any lip then I'll just cast light on everybody in the party
>Sure, I don't want someone taking a silvered lognsword out of nowhere
And why should I accept that you won't? Why should anyone believe you won't just casually alter the number of gold pieces on your sheet, or what you're carrying, or that thing you happen to be able to use in this situation that you never owned before? Should we just take your word for it? Why is your word worth anything?
There's a rules system, and it exists to keep you honest. If you won't try and cheat, then the system doesn't inhibit you in any way.
>Dungeon is miles away from nearest town
>Been on the road for at least two weeks
>No mention of food, hunting, or gathering the entire time
A lot of things are taken on faith in games. Considering that the PCs got there without starving, freezing, or dying of dehydration it makes sense that someone has a means of starting a fire.
More of a mismatch in play styles, OP assumed that his character would have brought basic supplies (tinderbox, waterskin, bedrolls and whatever else you would expect a group of non-imbeciles to bring on the road with them.).
OP's GM assumes that his players will explicitly inform him of all conscious actions the characters take (everything short of breathing). I believe the former is a better way to play but everyone is different.
I had the opposite once.
>had to leave town in a fucking hurry because DM was destroying it.
>I had time to grab my pet, and my backpack.
>dm:" ok , south 2 month travel, west through MTS 3 weeks travel or south west around MTS 1 month travel. Which way do you go?"
>well....mt pass is filled with bad things.. I can't survive with no food for 2 mths...so sw it is.
>have 4days of trail rations
>I ate half rations..failed every survival roll with 1's and 3's..and got lost
>started losing HP
>ate fucking weeds...got sicker
>killed my horse finally and ate it
>cooking horse attracted wolves of course
>lose more health in battle vs wolves
>watch wolves eat my horse meat as I sit in a tree for 2 days
>finally make it to town with 3 HP left
>life of an adventurer in 2nd ed.
Starvation is a merciless cunt...much like my DM.
It was an epic game all the way.
I tried to stop the destruction of 4 cities, and failed. Watched the entire kingdom go up in smoke. Had a bbg, that was just a bit ahead of me from lv 1-7. Finally chopping his fucking head off, was almost orgasmic.
>your character is level 1 and doesn't have the torch lighting skill or the proper feat
Then I choke to death because it also doesn't say on here that I know how to breathe. Anyone else who forgot to put "breathing" under their skill list can join me in starting a new game.
>character never encountered undead before
>go into catacombs to find shiny shit after ignoring townspeople
>skeletons shambles at them from out of the darkness
>rogue holds back from fight, rummages in pack
>pulls out torch extra torch
>attacks skeleton with torch while he has a sword on his belt
>argues that a torch is club shaped and shouldnt have to take penalties for using it as a weapon
>compromise to get things moving and tell them we will discuss it later
>stares at me for several minutes when I say the torch breaks for hitting chainmail wearing skeleton
>mad for the rest of the game
>shit talking to other players about it
Ever had anyone get pissed because you did not let them get 100% what they wanted? Fuck, I let him use the torch with no penalty because I wanted the game to move. Getting mad over a 1cp item you metagamed into using is pretty damn sorry.
Did you specify that your character can speak? How about have basic motor function?
Oh, man, your character looks pretty bad, are you sure you got all the advantages from taking so many disadvantages? I mean, shit, your character doesn't know how to swallow, how has he not drowned like a turkey already?
Hah, had a similar situation with my group this last weekend.
>Group arrived at the ancient fort they had heard about and began their investigation.
>Quickly realized the place was warded against intruders, end up losing a few HP along the way
>Wisen up and begin to be more cautious
>Eventually encounter a large group of enemies and begin a lengthy battle.
>Almost lose their Cleric but they come out on top.
>Discover a secret door leading down deep below.
>Decide to take a long rest to recover before heading further down.
>Eventually make their way down, solve a lot of riddles and puzzles to finally find their way into a large chamber.
>Center of the chamber has an Enormous Black Dragon sleeping in the center, bound in crystal keeping it in deep slumber.
>Hijinks ensue, party runs for their lives.
>Eventually make it back outside "Okay, we mount the horses and ride back to town to tell them what we found."
>"As you look around for your horses you can't seem to find them. Then it dawns on you. You never tethered them when you arrived over 10 hours ago."
>"But they're trained! They would have stayed nearby!"
>"This is in the middle of the wilderness, there's no telling what could have happened while you where inside the ruins."
>Party searches for tracks, find the horses had wandered off a bit. Wolf tracks nearby. Eventually find where their horses where attacked and killed, only to be eaten.
>"I guess we'll have to walk back to town...."
>playing an island campaign
>DM intros the group " you all grew up together on the island, and spent your childhood fishing and swimming in this tropic paradise "
>2sessions later, on mainland set up camp by a small lake.
>fish to catch food
>no one has fishing...DM:" you don't know how to fish"
>" but I have line, hooks and bait!"
>next day need to swim across
>no one listed swimming
>DM " you'll drown"
But but but......
See, this is the kind of thing that get's my goat, anyone who was raised in a culture dependent on horses wouldn't even think about tying up the horses, It's like locking your car when you live in the city. All the same, those wolf tracks makes me think that there's very little you could have done to leave that dungeon and have mounts waiting for you. (Choo-choo!)
I personally find that annoying.
>Okay DM, I picked out stuff to carry in my inventory that I think I'll need. Some rope, a grappling hook, tindertwigs, five torches -
>You have an adventurer's pack.
>What's in it?
>All the stuff that you'll need so I don't have a headache keeping track of what you have.
I can see where this DM came from because I have done similar in the past.
What he did right was finally get fed up with you all not putting things into your background skills from before the adventure started.
What he did wrong is going full scale "NO". I would have given you equipment and memory bonuses based on the gear and experiences but on an untrained skill roll.
One is showing a flaw in character building, the other is being a cunt.
Well, it was an old fort, and there was a courtyard there as well. They could have easily brought the horses into the courtyard.
Besides, I roll random things for outside events while my players adventure in dungeons and what have you so that the world continues to move while they are away. I happened to roll wolves.
What I meant is that it would be second nature.
Hm, thanks for explaining the system to me, it sounded earlier like you were just being a jerk. I apologize for speaking without knowing all the facts.
Figure this might be an interesting story for a thread like this, a session from a few weeks ago
>5e campaign with only 2 players and DM/GM
>playing a hill dwarf cleric
>get to a town where everyone has gone insane similar to The Crazies minus tainted water
>find a few sane survivors in the boarded up inn
>learn that they have a crazed mercenary locked in one of the rooms
>offer to see if we can subdue him alive and see if a treatment is possible
>me, brother playing elf cleric, and DM controlled rogue head up to the locked room
>bust in and get a surprise round
>beat him down fairly well but he is still standing
>initiative goes and mercenary has the highest roll, due to us rolling poorly
>mercenary swings at me after DM rolls to decide his target
>rolls natural 20
>then rolls maximum dmg swinging for 30
>being a lvl 1 with 11 hp this outright kills me so I tell the DM that I am now kill
>DM intervenes and says I don't die and instead just drop to 0 with 2 failures
>cleric bro ends up knocking out the mercenary
>after the encounter and I am healed the DM expresses that he didn't think the mercenary would be that difficult despite giving him double his listed hitpoints
I am currently running a pathfinder campaign set in the shackles. If we are going to play in an environment where you are literally surrounded by water and doing pirate bullshit, I am giving you all an innate 1 rank in swimming. Someone has walked you through the concept of treading water
>exploring an old temple
>find secret door
>rogue discovered mechanism to open door
>" we pull the lever"
>DM this is an old draconic temple
>"so? Pull the lever"
>DM you can't understand draconic technology
>" OK, so we just pull the lever anyway "
>DM you don't know how, its draconic!
>"its a fucking lever, we pull it!"
>DM: make a decipher check
>we all fail the DC 30 check
>DM" you can't figure out the advanced draconic technology "
>we go back to town, hire a sage to explain draconic technology ( takes all our coin)
>back at temple reroll decipher check
>DM " OK you pull the lever and the door opens"
So what "arabian" magic was available? Detonate?
Next time roll a japanese wizard and you'll at least have Black Tentacles.
Hey, something like that happened to me too. Luck of the dice can be horrible sometimes.
I'm battling against our barbarian character in an area match, before we'd met and formed a party. I manage to batter him down to about 7 health, I'm around 11, and I'm confident I can keep in the fight long enough to finish him.
Suddenly, after a long bout of both of us missing, he rolls a twenty and confirms. He rolls highly - 10 - and with his +3 strength and x2 total damage, he does 26 damage to me in one blow.
The GM has grace enough to let me live, but my character lost the arm the barbarian had swung at when he made his attack. The barbarian's player is more upset about it than I am, but so far I've had no luck on getting even a crude replacement.
what the actual fuck? Does he also tell you that you can't get a cart rolling because you don't understand the advanced arcane mechanics of the wheel?
You should buy him a dragon dildo, and give it to him saying "I won't even charge you for the knowledge of how to work this draconic technology- you simply stick it up your ass"
Some people don't like to keep spreadsheets of every copper, every torch and every ration they buy. They prefer to play, rather than to keep tabs on every small thing they have. If you like to play Accountants & Aberrations, that's on you. Some people like to actually use that time to kill some more or advance the plot.
The problem wasnt dying. The problem was the DM making a fight suited for a 4-5 person party more difficult than it should have been. This guy is a very sadistic dm who likes running encounters where you are bound to die from anything and pull bullshit maneuvers like after we kill some wizard "you know he was going to surrender next turn", nothing says the wizard couldn't just scream "I surrender". Last time I checked talking was a free action
I'm going to be a That Guy and say that's not historically accurate. Most sailors didn't bother to learn to swim because back in the day drowning could kill you days later even if rescued, a quick death was considered better than a slow death.
When does it really require a spreadsheet? You just write down something like
>rations (4 days worth)
>rope (25 ft length)
and change the numbers as you use a torch or eat a ration for the day, or if you get a longer rope.
What you do is you take a pencil, ask him to write something, and as he goes to write you smack his hand hard and break the pencil, and tell him "No, that was a draconic pencil, you don't know how to write with it."
Oh fuck yes it did.
A newborn fairy dragon. Bought the egg from a "grey market" animal dealer. Used psionics on it while still in the shell. My all time favorite animal in any game.
I don't really see the problem with what he did aside from not bullshitting the roll a bit and making you take less damage. He intended the mercenary to be a challenge for a group, you got a surprise round to do a fair bit of damage to him, and he was gracious enough to void your death and give you a chance to survive. Doesn't sound too sadistic. The only reason you nearly died in the first place was luck of the dice.
As for the wizard thing, so what? If you wanted to kill the wizard, what does it matter that he might have surrendered given time?
It does actually sound pretty fun. Like, difficulty without malice, the uncaring apathy of the void rather than the outright hostility of some stupid asshole being a "clever" prick.
I suppose there's a could ways to do it, then; either abbreviate it to smooth things along, or create rules that make sense like the 2e ones that make it hard without punishing you.
Dungeon World, despite the criticisms and whatnot, does an okay job at abstracting stuff. You can use "Adventuring Gear" which is any simple, useful, mundane item that an adventurer might have on their person for adventuring, unspecified as to what it is while carrying it, but specified upon use like a Schrodinger's adventuring gear.
Could be a grappling hook, a length of rope, spare gloves, chalk or charcoal, a candle, flint and tinder, a frying pan (or drying pan), quill, ink, and parchment set... It's generally used up when you use it, so you don't run around with a bag of miscellaneous items, just however many uses of uncollapsed waveform "Adventuring Gear" you carry with you as situations demand.
It does add a slightly greater utility to the player, giving them just what they might need for the moment or encouraging them to think creatively about what they use their stuff as and how it's employed.
Had the opposite problem with my players once.
>"Okay, you get on the wagon and get going towards the dungeon."
>"We can't. None of us have handle animal."
>"No, it's just a wagon and a trained horse. You are fine."
>"No, we need a trained driver."
>"...are you fucking with me?"
I ended up giving them a farmer npc with one rank in handle animal and 8 charisma. No rolls were ever required to drive the cart at any point.
>Say y'all when referring to multiple people because its both faster and more candid than other alternatives
>everyone suddenly shits their pants with phony texan accents and y'allin each other
>not even from texas, carry no accent
I had a DM who would do his absolute best to make any form of continious magical buff completely worthless.
>party enters cave known to house a tribe of vicious goblins
>combat is clearly expected and party obviously prepares it
>mage takes a hit
>"but I have have +4 AC from this spell"
>"you never said you cast it"
>the wizard player let that slide
>instead he started to declare that he cast buffs whenever it looked like we would get into trouble
>the DM always made sure that enough time passed between the buffs being cast and any combat happening that they stopped working
Bringing the bantz while bringing down pants.
When the game starts going and the players loot every valuable thing in sight (and other things that aren't), you better believe the sheet is going to get clustered up, hence why people use spreadsheets to keep count of everything they have.
Bigger things, like macguffins, scrolls, wands, enchanted items: those should be kept track of.
Stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say.
My point is that it gets tedious and boring to keep track of every copper you spent on the ale of the inn, on the bed you slept in that same inn, for the food of the horses, for the polish of the plate armor, for the whetstone used to keep the swords sharp, for the torches you naturally buy when exploring a dark dungeon, for the alms you gave to the poor, for that one snack you bought at the fair, for the gift you got for that one noblewoman, for the drugs you got for your alchemist, for the maggots you got for your wizard, et cetera ad infinitum.
If you like playing with numbers and keeping track of every penny you spend, go right ahead. Other people would rather spend that time kicking some imaginary thug's ass.
When my DM started doing this, I started pain-stakingly writing down every single piece of equipment I had on me, complete with weight and price. When he saw my six-page-long inventory which didn't even make me lightly encumbered, he stopped that.
I still make ridiculously big inventories, because I like it.
I AM BECOME HARDWARE STORE, THE CARRIER OF TOOLS.
>trying to climb up onto a ledge
>ledge is 6' off the ground.
>"I pull myself up"
>roll climb DC 10
>literally only fail on a 1
>roll a one
>laughter from the table
>" fine, take 10"
>next 3 players take 10's
>takes us 20 minutes to climb ledge
>all 4 up on ledge finally
>a hole at back of ledge we need to crawl into
>DM says" you don't have room kneel and crawl, the ledge is too crowded "
>makes everyone take 10 to descend
>one at a time, take ten and climb back up to crawl out through the hole.
>get outside and our camp is gone, wagon gone, supplies are gone
>DM " you all took so long getting out...."
>are you serious?
>DM " yea, I told you the bandit that escaped would be mad at you all."
>1bandit stole all our shit and got away, because we couldn't climb up a rock ledge, that was head high.
Aka; DM dickery.
DW has a lot of great ideas like this, no matter what people think of the actual rules. Anything that makes play less fiddly. It also solves the problem that a character would know better what to pack than the player does.
I did something like that once.
DMs at my uni got on a kick about "you don't have that on you" so a couple of us spent several days creating several adventuring kits for different levels (including a high-level one that needed several bags of holding and a hewards haversack to carry).
This included page references, weights and costs.
Then we sent copies to the whole RPG society. Lo and behold players started printing copies and listing "Adventurer Kit #3" on their character sheets.
Then the DMs decided that non-magic gear was better "in abstract".
You are some wonderful motherfuckers you know that?
If I didn't get the equipment, then it's on me. Because if we're just gonna assume people have everything they could possibly ever need, then I guess I'll start pulling all sorts of shit from my Eega Beeva trousers.
My character inventories are always packed with everything I could possibly have or need, so that no GM can ever say I don't have something, because it's right there in my character sheet that they approved.
so your getting all this for free? as a DM i would just say deduct 10gp and you wont have to worry about mundane things for a while assuming you dont do anything overboard. But you still need to keep track your stuff. If the Dm is keeping track everything about the world you should at least keep track of your character.
>as a DM i would just say deduct 10gp and you wont have to worry about mundane things for a while assuming you dont do anything overboard.
Usually we do that, yes. We'll pay for accomodations and those things are included in the amount of money we pay.
If you like to play accountant in your spare time, good on you: after all, there's people who play Eve online.
But I'd rather not worry about every breath my character takes.
You mean people DON'T put 10 metal stakes in their inventory for numerous purposes such as griddling snake meat upon or staking rope to the ground, or jamming open doors or the like?
All my friends and I shove a ton of random gear that looks cool or sounds handy in, and who doesn't put down a couple of everburning torches or just normal torches in their inventory?
I 9/10 times bring three 10 foot collapsible poles and a hammock, so my elf doesn't sleep on the ground like a pleb, even in a dungeon.
I had a dm make me roll to be able to unlock a door I was given a key to.
Apparently my charter doesn't know how keys function because I failed and damaged the lock the the process.
I had to then rip the door off.
My party then proceeded as though I had simply unlocked the door with ZERO repercussions.
WHY DID I EVEN ROLL?!?!?!
>what does the note say?
>ehhh... you don't know. You don't have the read-skill
>playing 86 year old dwarf
If someone figured out that you need a lever to open the door, and the DM says then that the technology is too advanced for you to know how to open the door, it is time to quit adventuring and become turnip farmers.
I outright tell players that they should always start with a few torches, a ranged weapon, some sort of tool and a backup weapon.
I like having an actual inventory as a player and I enforce it as a gm.
Encumbrance rules on the other hand...
Sven what are you doing outside your shed anyway
If I were the DM, I wouldn't have called it a lever at all. It'd have been a large orb floating above a magical platfom at a scale obviously meant for larger-than-Medium creatures.
Most of this seems reasonable to me, aside from the notion of needing a skill a light a torch. Tracking your inventory isn't difficult.
The problem I usually run into as GM are people doing the opposite with skills, and assuming they're unusually good at everything by default, as if finding food in an arctic wasteland is a trivial matter, or a swordsmen in full plate and a heavy pack with no knowledge of how to swim just casually tumbling into the ocean as if they can dog paddle a few miles to shore. Then they drown. And get pissy at me. Jerks.
It's literally a few lines.
> Torches: 5
> Flint and Tinder
> Money: xxx
I understand that some people prefer cinematic campaigns where you automatically have any reasonable low-cost sort of items on hand, but let's not pretend this is some sort of substantial undertaking. It's a few seconds thought and a few more to jot down.
I just find it funny/annoying that I'm supposed to be more aware of my characters stuff than my own IRL. Like, do you really know how exactly much money you have, down to the last cent?
Then you have to take hammer and chisel, rope, grappling hook, crowbar, a compass, a sleeping bag, a tent, the tent nails/pins/whatever, the saddle for your horse, the saddlebags, binoculars, filled waterskins, empty waterskins, your moneypouch, a set of spare clothes, a set of spare shoes, a few pieces of soap, exactly fourty-two arrows, a towel, rations for yourself, exactly four live lizards for that one spell you need, three raven feathers to cast that other one, however many millilitres you need of bat guano to use fireball, bridles for the horses, a spare wheel for the wagon, exactly 10 pieces of garlic in case of vampires, three leaves of that one plant your alchemist needs to prepare that one potion, thirtyfive raspberries you bought at the market, et cetera ad infinitum.
I really prefer to skip the whole accountant part in favor of some action: I could see it working for a game where survival is a very big thing, but otherwise it's just a bother.
I know a guy who turns into a completely different person when he plays a game. He cheats, rules-lawyers, argues, pouts, gloats.. I gave him another shot earlier this week when we all got together to play Zombicide. He's out of my games for another 6 months at least.
We have 6 players, we're playing the scenario where you win when one player reaches red (level 43 iirc). At the start of the game, this guy starts making his case about why it should be him that we support to hit lvl 43. Then the whole game he's trying to control everyones moves/actions. Anytime someone draws a good weapon, this guy *without a moments thought* instantly starts hounding the person: "I need that. Trade it to me."
Dude just cannot grasp the idea that everyone is playing together, and we all want to have fun. But yeah, he's done. Last time I played anything with him before this it was 40k. This guy was rules-lawyering and cheating the entire time. Lying about rules, making 'mistake' after 'mistake' always in his favor. He can draw los to my unit, but that same unit doesnt have los to his?
I used to try to reason with him, but hes a lost cause. Hes genuinely incapable of normal, social interaction when playing games.
No, but then again I'm here on 4chan, not out adventuring and saving the world while getting fat loots. You wanna pretend to be a superior person, they're gonna be held to a superior standard.
>assuming they're unusually good
GMs, generally, are "unusually good" at a very small subset of skills, ime. However, if my medieval groomsman PC, rightly expecting to get through the logistical and mechanical challenges that have faced him every medieval day for decades, found himself suddenly confounded by every mundane daily medieval task, he'd suspect a curse: That some malign, invisible - possibly neckbearded - force was tormenting him just to be a dick.
Yes, I know he's just imaginary, but I think he's right ...
I'll never let this one go
>party comes across a room with no friction, but several stalagmites
>we decide to slowly slide across, grabbing the stalagmites, spinning using the momentum, and letting go at the right angle to get to the door
"Okay, roll physics!"
>we all look at him like he's insane
>party is an FBI agent, an actress, and a minor league baseball player
>no one put any points in physics
>we argue that physics is for doing like, physics lab work, or other actual science, not common sense momentum
>he finally relents and lets us use Luck (I wanted to use DEX), but pouts about it for the rest of the session
>still maintains he's in the right
His GMPC was the only character with points in Physics, of course.
>make the player roll a WIS-based check (or whatever your system uses)
>success means they remembered to buy torches when they were in town, failure means they forgot
>DC is based on the item's price and rarity
>add cumulative penalties for each time they've made such a roll during this trip
Would this work?
>When the game starts going and the players loot every valuable thing in sight (and other things that aren't), you better believe the sheet is going to get clustered up, hence why people use spreadsheets to keep count of everything they have.
I like keeping track of my inventory, and part of that means keeping it small and manageable.
D&D 5E did three good things: equipment packs, saying enemies' gear is worthless (no carrying around eighteen swords), and putting "treasure" as a separate part of the character sheet.
So I'll have something like "shortsword, chain mail, shield, backpack, bedroll, mess kit, tinderbox, torches x 10, rations x 10, waterskin, 50 ft of rope". Fits in the box just fine.
Then in the "treasure" box I'll just total it up. "240 gp of gems", unless the gems specifically matter (e.g. for spell components).
I don't mind keeping track of money either, but I do see a lot of people who pay 1 gp for something worth a few copper because they can't be bothered to work out the change. Again, 5E did a good job introducing "lifestyle expenses" that cover food, lodgings, maintenance, etc.
>out of the 4 PCs 2 were made by the DM because new players
>GM gets mad when new players don't have any skill: knowledge whatever and that fucks up the campaign
>Other dude and I, the ones who made their own PCs, have some knowledges but couldn't have access to the ones the GM was asking for
>Had a dm like that
>I always say I look around
>Get killed by rogue on a completely empty room
>New dm "You didn't say you looked behind the door once you opened it wide"
I guess she was Kate Moss the Assassin
>First two are understandable, third is stretching it, and the last one is the game breaker, as in I break the DM's Bullshit game.
>Most of this seems reasonable to me, aside from the notion of needing a skill a light a torch. Tracking your inventory isn't difficult.
>>you didn't say you packed torches with you when you left town
If keeping track of inventory is important to the game, then yeah, you need to actually have a torch.
>>you didn't indicate that you lit the torch before you entered the dungeon
This can happen and it can matter.
Sometimes it's smarter to leave them unlit, sometimes the PC might get too eager.
>>you didn't inform the gm that you bought a tinderbox to light the torch
If a player remembered torches, but forgot a tinderbox, I'd probably handwave it.
>>your character is level 1 and doesn't have the torch lighting skill or the proper feat
Any GM who pulls this is a shitrooster that needs to eat a bag of dicks.
>I really prefer to skip the whole accountant part in favor of some action: I could see it working for a game where survival is a very big thing, but otherwise it's just a bother.
This sounds sensible, but you realize of course that this is path to handwaving all material components and breaking magic.
Encumbrance too as everyone is now a living bag of holding.
Of course, once they get a wagon, then the wagon gets an inventory sheet, and as long it doesn't get abused or they aren't in a high speed chase while hauling gold statues, I don't concern myself with the encumbrance of the wagon.
>>make the player roll a WIS-based check (or whatever your system uses)
Decent mechanic to resolve whether or not you retcon it when the player forgot something the character might not.
Never design a system around an exception anon.
>This sounds sensible, but you realize of course that this is path to handwaving all material components and breaking magic.
Most systems have built in hand waves for non-costly magic stuff like bat guano though. Stuff like torches and rope seem to be on much the same level. I mean sure you have to buy the component pouch for those "mundane" spell components but couldn't you just have a similar 'adventure kit'?
I could see it if you were trying to run a game with realistic encoumbrance rules where loot/resources are scarce. You'd want your players to have some way of determining their equipment before they go off on the adventure.
I dislike that kind of game though. I also dislike prepared spell casting. I find it bogs down everything, when my min/maxing players have to take themselves out of the adventure to agonize over what spells they might need that day.
I think it's assumed that "inventory" in this context means "things you have on you while exploring." If it was "stuff you own but keep in storage back in town" I'd call it "assets" or something.
I play Pathfinder.
So, traveler's any-tool is a must. It's a magic item that can transform into any tool the wielder can imagine, provided that the tool has not much moving parts (one is okay at my table). You can get it even at 1st level, it's 250 gp.
Other, the usual - a tent, a bedroll, a blanket, soap, shaving kit, mess kit, a pot, flint and steel, some food (preferably wandermeals to save on weight and money), clothes, spare clothes, rope, chain (preferably in reinforced scarf form), a padlock and a key for it, two pairs of manacles (Small and Medium) with keys, torches (not necessary if you have darkvision), candles, tindertwigs, a compass, a map of the region or a mapmaking kit, some string, a bell net, a signal whistle, some chalk, some charcoal, some parchment and paper in a scroll case (preferably watertight), an inkpen, ink in vials - regular, glowing and invisible, a needle, some fishhooks, a filter hood, earplugs, smoked goggles, a canteen or a waterskin, a heatstone, a dagger with saw-back, and finally a masterwork backpack and some waterproof bags and pouches to organize all the shit.
After that, a weapon and armor (if needed), after that - consumables like potions, scrolls, wands, tanglefoot bags and stuff.
>All that shit
My nigga. Honestly my favorite stuff in the game is the stuff that costs <250g. Traveler any-tool is a must like you said. And then a thousand mostly worthless, light items is the way to go. Once I get some form of magical bag of holding I go wild with how much shit I have on hand at any given time.
I for one like playing accountant and aberrations. Resource management is actually a fun part of most games to me. If you are just going to hand wave everything in a game except your armor and weapon why bother having anything else listed? Personally I think that is no fun. I also tend to think is encourages lazy of thoughtless playing. If you can just pull everything you need out your ass where is the non combat challenges? I like rewarding and being rewarded for planning ahead and bringing niche items and finding creative use for equipment.
I like you.
Is it weird if I prefer the idea of buying and managing these items piece by piece, rather than the GM just saying, "Yeah, you have an Adventurer's Kit with everything you need"?
It's like setting out an a hiking adventure, except you don't have to spend real money and you don't have to actually do the exercise (phew).
>I mean sure you have to buy the component pouch for those "mundane" spell components but couldn't you just have a similar 'adventure kit'?
>Most systems have built in hand waves for non-costly magic stuff like bat guano though
Yeah, that's why I used *all* material components.
A pinch of sulphur can be handwaved, four live lizards less so.
I've always wanted to play a game that, in addition standard D&D style fantasy adventures, had a secondary mercantile element, similar to Spice and Wolf. The small town hired you to clear out some goblins could never get together enough gold for your price, but will gladly give you an equal value of wheat. Then you can take that wheat to another town a month's travel way, where according to rumors their crop has suffered a blight and you can make a great profit from the high demand. Take your payment in salt and sell it in a number of forest villages where it's needed to cure meat for the winter. If you're lucky you'll find a magic item that no one in the party needs, and sell it to a well connected collector for exotic spices worth ten times their weight in gold as well as gaining him as a new business contact who will gladly share with you news of a military campaign where the services as an adventuring party will be needed. In such a game I would gladly keep track of everything my character carries on him, from the emergency gold pieces in his shoe to the bag of cheep candies that he'll offer to luxury starved soldiers to get them in a talking mood. Not to mention all the assets not on his person, such as property, debts owed to and from him, and accounts held by the guild, or whoever would serve as the bankers for adventurers.
I'm this anon - >>44662351 and >>44668403
Nope, it's perfectly reasonable to like playing accountant as long it doesn't bother anyone. I, for one, prepare everything in advance. When I feel especially account-y, I even make a separate sheet for every container and fill it in with its contents as is.
That six-page inventory was a sort of exception - it included EVERYTHING down to aglets on my shoelaces, shoelaces, buttons, clasps, feathers on my hat and such.
Was fun to make, though.
Sometimes I think I may be autistic a little.
This is why you don't play systems that care what specifically is in your backpack. if it makes sense for your character to have it and it doesn't impact the narrative/game, then you have it.
Otherwise, just deduct 250gp and write "misc. equipment".
People used to groan when I would have the perfect item for any situation because I play the accountant game.
Then I offered to manage their sheets between sessions. Not like anyone uses any of the crap on their sheets but it's there so they have no room to complain.
I also shift around some of their gold. Either to myself, to someone who is short on gold and needs items or to NPC I like that I feel got short changed. No one ever notices because of "Wow look how full my inventory is and it only cost XXX gold!"
Why groan? I can't think of any valid reason short of plain old jealousy.
That's a great idea, I'll certainly use it. You can always fluff it as "I go shopping for the party, gimme some gold for expenses".
We had a game sorta like that. Played as river boat captains, using a barge to transport massive amounts of goods back and forth. We found out we could buy low, and sell high, and make more than we could by charging a fee to deliver stuff. So we built a couple warehouses, hired guards , and bought lumber from the swamp region, and floated it down river to the big cities. We barged upriver to the mountains, bought ore from orcs, and moved it down river ( for 1/10th of the cost of wagons moving it overland) to the bigger ports.
Turned into an economic game with a bit of combat here and there.
Pretty fun really. But lots and lots of record keeping.
They groan because I would admittedly steal the spot light quite a bit by doing so.
It's just that I would argue why waste resources on a situation like a casters spells, or a fighters HP when I can use one of the many items I have already invested gold in? Plus I am the creative sort who can think of a use for most items in many situations.
Plus I am great at improv so I would become the party face more often then not because while everyone else would just sit there trying to figure out what to say to get out of a situation I already knew something. I try to keep it in check now-a-days but damn if it is not hard to bite my tongue while someone fumbles and butchers would would be a pretty easy situation to get in our favor.
The tables are there in D&D, I'd like this too.
Welp, then I'd say it's the rare case where the problem is not in the complaining one.
Did you ever try to fix what they've butchered and failed? It could be fun - I did once end up as the party cleaner/negotiator-when-all-failed/etc. I had a lot of fun trying to come up a solution for yet another ridiculous clusterfuck the party got into.
Isn't inventory stuff that you should be handling as the session goes on, or even outside of the session?
A lot of that stuff is probably things that you're going to initially have, so you'll work that out before the session starts and figure out exactly how much money you have after getting all that stuff.
The rest is easy to jot down as the session is going on. Admittedly, how much your GM cares about haggling or even just going through the shopping process matters, but it's not going to drastically slow the session down to mark everything you get as things go along. As long as you're not buying all that at once, you should be fine.
Worst case scenario, you contact your GM between sessions and say that there's some stuff you want to pick up in the town and you don't want to waste half a session on getting it.
Oh I totally agree they are right to complain about me. Hence me trying to reign it in.
And I let most of their blunders go. Most of the time it just means more fighting/longer session. Which most people don't mind since murderhobo's. I only try to unfuck really important things, and most of the time those don't get fucked up. So everyone wins.
Taking the bait.
The GM is not there to win against the players. The GM is there to provide fun. The players are his audience, and the table is his stage. Shut up and entertain them.
Was it something like: "It's the story of the players, you are just there to provide a world"? Make your mind, faggots.
Right? I mean, it's their fault that the child they didn't pay attention was actually a dragon that was looking for some excuse to kill adventurers.
I usually try to have enough so that I'm prepared for most situations. The thing I really like about working with an inventory in an RPG is that it's not like a videogame, where you're constrained on the use of items by what you can actually use them in the game for. If you got desperate, you could try to use a grappling hook as an improvised weapon, or end up pouring holy water on a rock thinking it will solve a puzzle.
Always necessary is two lengths of 25 foot rope, and a grappling hook. I usually get at least five torches, but sometimes I mix things up and get a bottle of oil and a hooded lantern. I always get tindertwigs, since they're a little more reliable than flint and steel. A whetstone for my sword, a bedroll, a waterskin, at least four days worth of travelling rations, and a case for a map or a scroll - who knows when you might need to carry some paper around? If I'm working with a particularly strong character, I might bring a sledge - works as an improvised weapon, and is great for smashing things.
Anything else more specific depends on the character or what I find along the adventure. My paladin will probably have a silver holy symbol and a flask to carry holy water in, for instance.
Ok I'll start drawing a map of the dungeon
>you don't have parchment and a pen
>having graph paper and a pencil in real life doesn't count
>that's called metagaming
>your character wouldn't be good at mapping anyway
I had a DM who apply circumstantial modifiers to social checks in a way that positive circumstances granted negligible bonuses, but negative ones granted crippling, near-insurmountable penalties.
>I try to use Diplomacy to befriend the watchman so he'll tell us where the duke took the prisoner. We're from the same nation, making me one of the very few countrymen he's had access to in this city, and also the party saved his squads' lives yesterday.
>Okay, +2 bonus.
>I try to bluff the jailer that we sent to bring the prisoner this food by the duchess, in a kind of good cop/bad cop thing she and the duke are doing in concert.
>The jailer knows the prisoner's already been feed once today and that exceptions are rare. -30 penalty on you Bluff check.
Made any social skill damn year useless, either rolled or roleplayed, honestly. Only way to get an NPC's cooperation was to explain in perfectly logical, verifiable terms how an alliance would benefit them, and that didn't work if the DM originally planned for them to oppose us. Lying or threatening NPCs into compliance was simply functionally impossible.
See im a pretty easy going player but shit like this rustles my jimmies, when the dmpc or npc tagalong is prepared for things only the dm knows is coming.
>party has been crawling through goblin cave
> suddenly dwarven contraption
> no pc has knowledge : dwarven
> one has knowledge : mechanism
> dmpc has knowledge dwarven. Insists he can do it
>session turns into protect the dmpc while he solves his own puzzles
>mfw we went from dungeon crawling to escort quest
ehh, to be fair, if something is not in the PC's listed inventory, I will punish them for it.
so for me it would go:
>Player: Ok I'll use my torch to light up the room
>Me: do you have any torches?
>Me: I don't see them on your character sheet.
>Player: CAN WE ASSUME MY CHARACTER IS NOT A FUCKING IDIOT, AND BOUGHT SOME DAMN TORCHES BEFOREHAND?!
>Me: obviously not, since you clearly didn't.
the rest of OP's scenario is total bullshit on the part of the GM.
Yeah, this is a crap DM move.
Players making maps is a justified abstraction.
GMs have to remember that the characters are actually there.
People, particularly experienced adventurers, have spatial sense and visual memory.
Remembering your way back from the bathroom in a strange building is easier than recalling the directions your characters made while abstractly maneuvering in the game.
Little visual cues like remembering that you took the left by the cracked pillar and a right next to that odd bush are the kind of things the character would intuitively recall without thinking explicitly about it while the player would have no ability to do the same.
I can understand an NPC that can help the party in their lacking areas from now and them. Like solving that reasonable obstacle no one is prepared, or guiding them from a dens forest, etc.
What you said is a GM playing his own game with witnesses (like 99.99% of the time there is a GMPC involved).
>fa/tg/uy on his couch doesn't think to buy torches
>clearly that means an adventurer setting out to explore some old caves wouldn't think to buy torches either
You sound like you should be working for Paizo
>Party gets to new town
>Every fucking time everyone worries about "supplies"
>Take an obnoxious amount of time worrying about food and shit
>The DM has never once made us keep track of it
>Cover me while I hack this door!
Exactly what I want out of RPGs
Paizo is the sort of design team where because some desk monkey with a mouse cord tied around his wrist can't easily swing the mouse up and catch it, they nerf weapon cords because MUH REALISM.
What should happen is the DMPC gets most of the way through the puzzle dungeon then dies inexplicably to some trap on the FINAL PUZZLE and the party has to solve the rest of it using what they remember him talking about
>>killed my horse finally and ate it
>>cooking horse attracted wolves of course
>>lose more health in battle vs wolves
>>watch wolves eat my horse meat as I sit in a tree for 2 days
Fuck anon, that cracked me up.
Sometimes I do this, but usually more to the effect of:
>I use a torch to
>Nigga you didn't buy any torches
>What? Of course my character would know to buy some, it's assumed!
>Well you didn't tell me anything, I'll let it go but think about that shit next time.
I just, I don't know, want them to consider some of the smaller details. I think it's neat to buy and keep track of even small items like that, muh 'mershun and all.
I'll probably stop, I'm not my players after all.
Yeah but that's got fuck all to do with what you're arguing about.
Essentially your argument is that the character would have thought to buy relevant supplies, so the player doesn't need to think about that. Trouble is you can apply that logic to everything in game and the players end up doing less and less thinking to the point where it's "I roll INT to decide the best course of action".
what's more, just because a character is an adventurer doesn't mean he will never forget shit, or go off half-cocked, hell, when I was in the Boy Scouts I'd see those kids, and even the adults forget the most obvious shit, there's a running joke in my household about how "smart" advanced placement kids can get. Hell it may not have even been established that your character actually IS a competent adventurer yet.
that's a thing that need to be talked before the game starts. Some argue that the PC won't forget it, others that your roleplaying him so YOU have to remember it. Either way, it's a thing that has to be talked.
I'm happy with that apart from the last; as a gm I give my players fiat to deck out their chars as they please before a adventure if you were or the entire party didn't pack torches or tell me how you made them prior to entering that cave fuck you.
It's not my fucking job to babysit your dumb ass.
but you don't have the knowledge, memories and habits of your PC. That is besides that your are experiencing the world of the game through descriptions and sound, with maybe visual aids, while your character IS in the world.
If you ever tried to roleplay as yourself on your own town it's a ton of a difference, you know the places, you know the people, etc. And yet you will fail things on game you would never fail IRL and viceversa.
>bought no torch or striking method
>wants to light a torch in a fucking cave
This is basic, man. It's like trying to use Point-Blank Shot without having arranged to have a ranged weapon and ammunition.
>hurr durr I hate GMs who are like this
fuck all of you plebes
At least you had waterbottle on your sheet... that allows the dm to then use this kind of thing.
It has been days in your travels; your water rations have been running low as you haven't been able to refill your waterbottles.
I once told one players to do that as joke he rolled a 1 and the other player rolled a 4 for medicine check on his Heimlich so his character ended up passing out because killing his character would be a dick move.....right
One time I was DM.
Me: "there's a sign at the doors entrace"
Player: "I run there and read it"
Me: you can't read
He was playing a barbarian and at least in 3.5 they where iliterate, everyone cracks up joke last to this day
>Playing an old man monk
>67 Years old
>older than most of the party
>Party does some seriously fucked up shit.
>Unmakes 50 souls because they fucked with shit they dont understand
>Call them impudent children
>Party Dwarf gets uppity. I've at least 100 years on you.
>The years you've spent drunk don't count you bearded oaf.
A dwarf can life day for day in his blacksmith without the need of any reading. Where should he learn it anyway since you need money for a teacher. Read and write is a defined thing like swimming and outdoor survival.
You are just bitching, that you don't get free skills.
In my group we never get into this situations because we have a small house rule for most games.
>If the party has all their equipment with them, it is assumed that the party collectively has any basic items that would be needed for any adventure or mission, such as food rations, small dirks, a light source, a small piece of rope, etc. to avoid any and all equipment-related complications.
Basically we don't list anything that's used throughout the campaign that isn't vital but is obvious that you'd bring in that situation.
My players (and I, when I'm not DMing) usually cover Mage Armor and the like with "assume I cast Mage Armor first thing in the morning every morning, after preparing my spells."
I can see where the DM was coming from there, but it's still kind of nitpicky.
Making sure buffs run out before combat happens, though, is a dick move and cause to do >>44667546
>Have to disarm for a meeting with NPC
>Meeting is on a small island
>must take a small boat from dock to get their
>DM ' roll use rope check'
>to untie the boat
>I fail and made the knot worse
>can't take ten now, knot is too difficult
>can't cut rope, been disarmed
>get NPC to untie it finally
>dock people laugh at me
>DM " roll to paddle boat"
>fail. Flounder around, bump back into dock
>DM' roll again'
>I tip the boat over.
>fuck it..swim there
NPC is insulted that I show up late, and wet.
It should be obvious. Both GMs and players should be expected to exercise common sense.
Players should be expected not to metagame or make up blatant ex-post-facto reasoning and make up new inventory or abilities as the plot demands.
GMs should be expected not to require such an overwhelming level of detail that simple actions take tedious amounts of time to describe in unnecessary and excruciating detail.
The middle ground between this is common sense. Players should use common sense to limit themselves to things their characters would reasonably do or have on hand. GMs should use common sense to assume their players' characters are not retarded and will do basic things like look at their surroundings, bring basic survival equipment on an adventure, or take caution in hostile areas, even if not specifically told.
Common. Fucking. Sense.
50-100 feet of rope
Firewood (wrapped inside the tarp)
Cold weather gear
Warm weather gear
Spare cloths (just in case GM gets anal about it)
Tinderbox (matches or zippo lighter if playing in a modern setting)
A weeks worth of dried/non perishable rations
Some form of bow and or hunting rifle with associated ammunition
And a fuck huge back pack of some sort to carry everything
Different people have different preferences. I understand yours, but I prefer it a bit more hand-wavy. Both have advantages. I would like to run a super strict, inventory management, encumbrance calculating, lethal dungeon crawl some day though.
I've seen people choke on a pretzel.
It's perfectly possible to have a situation where you open your mouth for a big breath, then a butterfly comes in, causing a choking hazard, which makes you cough severely, which then triggers a heart attack due to your fatty diet.
1's are dangerous.
Yeah and entertainment should follow life down to the fucking letter.
That is why all those plays I have seen had people dying of unknown cancer, dysentery killing soldiers left and right and everyone rolling in funk and human shit just off stage.
>It's perfectly possible to have a situation where you open your mouth for a big breath, then a butterfly comes in, causing a choking hazard, which makes you cough severely, which then triggers a heart attack due to your fatty diet.
>1's are dangerous.
This is so improbable it likely would not even be a *hundred thousandth* of a percentage chance of occurring, much less a fucking 5% chance, you stupid faggot.
As a professional GM and player I'd say that is well within the GM's rights to pull something like that. Sorry pal, but when I see that you don't have a backpack or any reliable storage on your character sheet I'm going to assume that you aren't bringing anything but what you have stowed away on you (which you should also fucking specify). Think you're gonna be a smart guy and say "well...uh yeah I left my backpack at the inn before leaving but I still tucked one torch down my pants before leaving" after the fact that I called you out on your poor planning? Sorry but your torch is now completely soaked from the rain and is completely useless as anything other than a stick.
I bet you're the same kind of idiot who would post a thread here complaining that your GM doesn't let you stuff 2 human bodies in your beltpouch because "b-but I can carry this much weight how dare you use your position as a GM to fuck me over!" despite the backpack being small and made of leather.
The sooner you video game playing fuckwits leave the hobby the better off we'll be.
>you didn't say you packed torches with you when you left town
That's fair enough you can't just pull torches out of thin air
>you didn't indicate that you lit the torch before you entered the dungeon
That's a little odd I would have thought the statement meant you were lighting It now
And it's unusual for somebody not to notice the
>you didn't inform the gm that you bought a tinderbox to light the torch
Well that's fair enough you have money totals for a reason buy shit
>your character is level 1 and doesn't have the torch lighting skill or the proper feat
OK now thats just retarded both in that the idea of lighting a torch being hard and something needing both a skill and a feat at the same time.
Is this thread for real? Do people really try to use things they should very well know they don't have in their inventory? This isn't rules lawyering, this is you straight up cheating and getting caught.
Although if the torch was in your invintory already and the DM just meant you didn't say you didn't leave it behind he is probably being a dick unless there's a good reason to not bring all your stuff with you which at level 1 I doubt
Uh, everything in the OP's post is legit. He didnt buy shit. End of story. Though I do have tinder twigs come with torches. Do you really want
>Alright, about to die, I hand out healing potions
>GM: Wait what? when did you get those? I never heard that.
>Wel..Its obvious right? I mean why woulndt I? We can just retcon it right?
Why dont we just have magical portals that let us have things we wish we had at that time? Unprepared adventurers should suffer some kind of consequence, right?
How do we make it a better situation though?
>GM asks if groups prepared before leaving town
>Explain the cave is dark, without a light source, you will be blind
>Regularly ask people to recount whats in their packs.
Give a reminder or hint, since the players dont feel the urgency these people fighting monsters do, its easy to forget. Dont wait for a slip up, but dont just fucking hand shit out because of whining either.
Also, dont get me wrong, rolling to eat and get dressed is pretty fucking dumb.
>you didn't say you picked your keys this morning, so obviously you are now locked outside.
It may happen, but most people take their keys without putting any thought on it.
"You didn't say you eat or take a shit, you your character obviously didn't and is now dying." This is how you sound to non-autist people.
There is always some degree of understood and assumed actions. You don't narrate every breath your character takes, do you? If your character swims, do you have to specify they hold their breath when underwater (and probably roll for it) or else they drown? No, it's an understood part of the action.
So nobody here has a problem with the concept of simply leaving certain actions understood. We all do that. But some leave more to this understanding than others. For instance, should you have to specify that a character exercises a basic level of caution in an unknown area like a dungeon? Or should the GM not tell you about visible dangers (not well-concealed ones obviously) unless you actually say you look for them? Should it be understood that an experienced adventurer takes obvious precautions like looking for traps, just as they take obvious actions like breathing?
Now onto inventory. If we accept the concept of actions being understood for being obvious, should we do the same for inventory? Pic related, it's an old medical kit. Do you really want pages and pages and pages of exhaustive inventory details? If someone says they packed a medkit, do you demand a list of every item within it or can you use reason to abstract whatever a common medical kit would probably have? What kind of autistic inventory simulator would bring a GM to utter a phrase like "Sorry, you didn't actually say that your medical kit had gauze in it, so you can't put any dressing on the wound"? Is it really "cheating" or "a handout" to make basic, obvious assumptions?
Just abstract an "adventurer's kit" that the party keeps with their field packs or caravan containing all the basic survival and adventuring supplies one would need. It makes it a lot easier. I mean, unless you enjoy autistic inventory simulators, at least. If that's what you enjoy go right ahead, but you're in the minority here.
>Don't worry guys, we all have boot daggers, right?
>I didn't get a boot dagger.
>Why would you not have a boot dagger?
What if the players cant afford a torch? Do you just give it to them? When your hungry, you eat, when you need to piss, you piss. There is no instinctual need to have a torch. You forgot to get some, or couldnt. Take the time to make shift one. No one ever said go to the extremes. I will not assume the players are smarter then they are.
Again, im talking about physical, tangible items. They dont have it? tough fucking luck. Not on your sheet after I told you MULTIPLE times to keep up on your inventory? It wont just happen. A 10 second "I go to the local wares dealer and grab a couple torches".
>A 10 second "I go to the local wares dealer and grab a couple torches".
A 10 second "I go to the local wares dealer and buy all the common inexpensive kit an experienced adventurer would reasonably carry on his person before venturing into unknown and dangerous areas far from civilization."
It depends on the frequency, but I think most DMs/GMs that do this feel like slowing down players/adding challenge (albeit highly unnecessary challenge)
Typically this is to compensate for lack of planning or as a way to keep things on edge (even though they don't need to be).
Do you make your players state every piece of clothing the put on before leaving town?
Do you make them state they take their weapons or they didn't pick them up?
It's no about it being on the sheet (which is also debatable) it's about not stating that you take them when leaving town.
>Do you really want pages and pages and pages of exhaustive inventory details?
Yes, I do. My DM does. Everyone in my party does. We had two rage-quits, because we made fun of players who didn't fill prepare properly before going dungeon crawling and tried to insist on retconning it. And when they tried to pull "b-but my character is cautious" thing, we point out that they dumped wisdom/intelligence. We may be assholes, but we're having fun.
Your argument is still perfectly fine, though. The inventory thing must be cleared before the game and agreed upon. When I GM, I say "if it isn't on your sheet, you don't have it, if you didn't say you do something, you didn't do it, any objections?". A friend of mine just substracts some cash from total gold and assumes that his players' characters get their shit together automatically.
>I'm sorry, you said your character was wearing a tunic, so they lost their hands, feet, and penis to frostbite overnight because you should have specified the three layers of heat-insulating materials they were wearing. A single tunic isn't enough to stave off cold and you didn't say they slept under a blanket either.
which holds how many torches? 4 or somthing? (isnt 5e some ridiculous shit like 14?). And when the 4 runs out? Is it a wondrous box of duplicating?
I ask what they have on often. A noble acts different to a full suited warrior then to a well dressed gentalmen. So yea, because its not about stats all the time.
Did you throw your dagger? Did you pick it up y/n? Sometimes you just want to slow an enemy down while you run. Does that mean it appears back in your hand?
At the START of an adventure, day 1, yea, we can fudge some things up, add appropriet things. But 8 months in, your in a desert, and you "didnt think to get climate appropriate gear because stats", then yea, your fucking penalized. You had chosen not to take the appropriate measures when given ample information on your destination. Not everyone walks around with the same shit.
>Everyone in my party does.
If that's what your group enjoys doing it's your prerogative. I do think it's an asshole move to expect new players to instantly be on the same page when you are, as I said, in the minority of players.
>which holds how many torches?
As many as an experienced adventurer would reasonably anticipate needing for the length of time we expect to be in the field.
this still perfectly allows inventory problems, like a dungeon being far more vast than the party was expecting for example, but doesn't make characters act retarded or make players work with less knowledge on things like hiking and camping than their characters would have
>But 8 months in, your in a desert, and you "didnt think to get climate appropriate gear because stats"
>You're in a desert, but you didn't actually say you were wearing desert garb, so you overheat in your arctic survival gear from the last adventure.
I actually tried running this and none of the players took it seriously. I had a pretty unique custom-revival setup in place where if one of the players carried a PC's corpse to certain locations before a certain amount of time had passed (they had plenty of time), the PC that had died could be revived. Then before even one of them died they complained that the game was too hard.
It's a dungeon-crawling setup with revival for any player that dies. Of course it's going to be hard. But they still quit anyway. Or rather, enough players quit that I couldn't run the game anymore.
Personally I just 'tax' my players whenever they're somewhere civilized. Same goes for ammunition because fuck keeping track of that.
That said, the tax is only for reasonable things (Food, water, torches, rope, etc). so if the situation goes anything beyond the mundane and they didn't plan on it, they're shit out of luck.
That's my difference between no question about torches but most definitely are you dehydrated and starving while unprepared in the vast desert.
The thing is, they've been warned. If you are outright told that you have to apply your brain and you don't, this isn't possibly your kind of group.
First, I'm not retarded. Breathing is not a conscious action, and as we take breaks for snacks, we assume our characters do the same. Stop being autistic. Second, I run Eclipse Phase, and often air/food/water is not an issue at all.
>reasonable things (Food, water, torches, rope, etc). so if the situation goes anything beyond the mundane and they didn't plan on it, they're shit out of luck.
Which is perfectly fine. Nobody wants that character that suddenly has literally anything they would ever need in a situation no matter how obscure. But frankly most people do not want to portray the mundane.
Do you keep track of every single thing every PC eats and track their calories, fat intake, and nutrient intake, then realistically portray vitamin deficiencies or the consequences of over- or under-eating? Or do you assume that, unless there's a story reason characters haven't eaten well, that PCs are eating a relatively stable diet?
>as we take breaks for snacks, we assume our characters do the same
As I take the basic supplies necessary to get where I'm going, I assume my characters do the same.
For example, if I were to roleplay my going to work, I'd probably just start with leaving the house and not actually specify that I take my phone out of the charger, take my wallet, my keys, glance at my car to make sure there's no really obvious visible problem like flat tires, and so on. These actions are assumed and it isn't terribly interesting to go over it all.
I would specify my sidearm in inventory though as that's a "non-standard" thing that may not necessarily be assumed
so they don't put on clothes, check their surroundings, take care of their equipment, take any kind of object before leaving their room, go to the bathroom, etc.
Because if you can asume this you can asume basic equipment on them.
Again, you are assuming I wait till you are in the middle of the desert to ask.
If I say to a player "Your about to start your caravan through the desert. Are you going to wear your full plate?" and they say yes, how the fuck am I supposed to react? What sane person dosnt know what being in that situation entails?
I think people just have players/are players scared to break that video game plot armor logic. You have an egg your dropping off a ledge, you better protect it properly.
Why every have challenge then? If the players have all supplies, all the time, just remove things like survival. All caves are kit up. All climates are comfy. Forgot your potion of water breathing? Thats alright, was just going to give it to you anyway.
Now to relent a little, I get toneing it down for the sake of a smooth game. if your 40 miles from civilization, and you forgot the paper with the rune code on it for the temple, then yea, fuck it you remembered. But for mundane shit you can live with out, I dont give quarter for comforts.
>if your 40 miles from civilization, and you forgot the paper with the rune code on it for the temple, then yea, fuck it you remembered. But for mundane shit you can live with out, I dont give quarter for comforts.
Hilarious. It's harder to remember and harder to asume that you picked up a single paper needed only this one time, that basic suplies you take every time you go on an adventure.
Oh, this is from a players perspective?
>They go to the moon in a Spelljammer setting
>They go to a dark place
>Torches do jack shit
>Didn't ask me what they could have instead ahead of time
Is the DM some kind of talking television set or something?
There is a fundamental difference between "not saying you wear climate-appropriate garb" and specifically saying "I am deliberately wearing climate-inappropriate garb."
Basically, any time a GM asks "Are you sure you want to do that?" and the player doesn't immediately re-think their position, they were probably asking for it.
>Why ever have challenge then?
Really? If you assume adventurers with experience at things like exploration, scouting, and hiking take basic precautions like packing supplies appropriate for the length of the journey and the climate they're in, then why have challenge at all? Isn't that a bit black-and-white?
>if your 40 miles from civilization, and you forgot the paper with the rune code on it for the temple
Let me pose the question thusly: I don't care if the *player* forgot something. Would the *character* forget it? I give lots of leeway if the players forget, or don't know things, that their characters would definitely know.
>>if you didn't say you do something, you didn't do it
>if you didn't say you do something, you didn't do it
not my words anon. Reloading a weapon must be assumed, as well as taking care of it, it's basic weapon maintenance you do regularly even more if you are in a dangerous place. As well as taking shits and eating.
Again, not everyone is a hardened adventurer from birth. The bard whos on the run bacuse his slept with the wrong noble women has never set foot in a cave till he met these guys. The young wizards apprentice assumed there would be a nice inn every time they stopped. What do you mean I'm supposed to have a bed roll? Im a fucking pirate, where the fuck would I use hammer and pitons?
Circumstance. I take my players characters from start to finish. If we are starting, say level 6+ or something, then yea, you got some experience under your belt, but until then, sometimes your in a cave without torches.
>ranks on survival
Laughing so hard over here
>stating a basic action like breathing normally or looking at your surroundings takes less than ten seconds.
You call other people autistic, but he's just pointing out how arbitrary your standard is. It takes "less than ten seconds" to explain lots of things that should be abstracted.
I assume that characters have reloaded and otherwise readied their weapons for use whenever they get a free moment in which to do so.
that you are an hypocrite who can live to his own standards. Your words are clear, yet you fill them with exceptions without stating them. You just make sure you can bullshit a player when they forget some minute detail their character wouldn't.
>not everyone is a hardened adventurer from birth.
But I specifically said
>adventurers with experience at things like exploration, scouting, and hiking
>talking about apples
>BUT WHAT ABOUT ORANGES
Read the rest of the post
>If we are starting, say level 6+ or something, then yea, you got some experience under your belt, but until then, sometimes your in a cave without torches.
double for you, holy shit do you just stop when you find out it dosnt agree with you? quoted from my own fucking post your referring to:
>Again, im talking about physical, tangible items.
Well even level 1 characters, if not experienced, still aren't retarded.
I can understand some character-related drama like not being able to estimate long-term needs, but I still oppose assuming level 1 characters are functionally retarded and not able to think through things like "If you're exploring a deep dark cave, bring torches" because a player forgot - or no, almost certainly just assumed - that it was too obvious to have to state.
>Players find room-equivalent of ten foot pit trap
>Successfully grappling hook and tie rope across room
>take off packs to cross rope easier
>attempt to use [item] on other side of room
>I tell them that [item] is in their pack
> "WHAT, that item would totally be on my character's belt/beard/pocket/etc."
I mean, I would get it if it was something like their main weapon, some keys, waterskin, some smaller things, but when its like crowbars, lots of potions or their dog animal companion...
>OK, the Cleric and the Elf were on watch, so they can attack. So can the Wizard. Everyone else take 1d6 rounds putting their armor on, unless they want to fight naked.
>Dude, naw, I sleep in my armor. Do you think I'm stupid?