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How could the military and the economy of...
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How could the military and the economy of a swamp* Kingdom look like?

*The land of the kingdom is mostly swamp.
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>>44655371
well the military would be very moist
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>>44655371
It would mostly tap for black mana
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>>44655371
There wouldn't be a notable kingdom in a swamp
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>>44655437
that's what she said!
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>>44655371
How big is the bit that isn't? I mean, Russia is mostly barren tundra and grasslands, but obviously most of the people don't live there.
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>>44655371

Dredging. They dredge the swamp for iron oxide, which can be smelted into usable metal.

If it's a peat bog, there's probably going to be some preserved bodies and stuff in it, so you could also recover long-lost goods. Peat itself can be used for farmers, and shipped out in return for food.

Whatever there is to catch and eat in the swamp as well. Probably some hedge witches as well or something. Wait, is this fantasy?
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>>44655415
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>>44655371

Go play Morrowind

Also the "kingdom" part just wouldnt work in a swamp. There could be pockets of civilization based around a few areas that could be farmed/fished, but you'd likely end up with smaller regional governments responsible for themselves.

Swamps suck for movement and farming and those are two things you need for "kingdoms"
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>>44655437
>>44655371
This.

A swamp "kingdom" would at the most be some tribal chief in the swamp calling himself king and the people who live in towns, plant crops and mine ore wouldn't give a shit because the swamp is too smelly for them to bother to go there and conquer it.

A swamp wouldn't really support or attract the population you need for an organized kingdom with an army and all that shit, and the economy would basically be bartering for food.

If you really want to make it work though, you can make iron super rare or whatever, except for bog-iron that the swampers rake up and trade or make weapons out of.
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>>44655371
I'd start by looking at Venice.

>Although no surviving historical records deal directly with the founding of Venice,[8] tradition and the available evidence have led several historians to agree that the original population of Venice consisted of refugees from Roman cities near Venice such as Padua, Aquileia, Treviso, Altino and Concordia (modern Portogruaro) and from the undefended countryside, who were fleeing successive waves of Germanic and Hun invasions.[9] Some late Roman sources reveal the existence of fishermen on the islands in the original marshy lagoons. They were referred to as incolae lacunae ("lagoon dwellers").
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>>44655542
>Also the "kingdom" part just wouldnt work in a swamp
Fuck you. Fuck this. Fuck everything.
This is /tg/. Don't say how something cannot happen. FIND A WAY so it can work! Use your imagination!
Just make up something that is fun to read.
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>>44655371
Visit the North Carolina Tidewater or the South Carolina Lowcountry. It's HEAVILY swampland down here (quite lovely on bright days, too), but that should give you an idea.

>Lots of river trade
>A few major port cities (Charleston, Wilmington)
>Plantations out the ass
>Rice. So much rice
>Big on fishing
>Farms on the islands
>Throw in Louisiana alligator hunting
>In short, major agricultural export economy

And there's the basics, the rest is up to you.
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>>44655371
Ah the kingdom of the bogmen you ask?
Well, as far as I know those bogmen are enjoying the stench.
Their homes are mostly build out of lumber from the murk-trees, you know 'em those big ones with their roots all splattered above the water.
Most of them farm they say, out here in our bogs little eatable is available, but in there in their bog, you see they've got their big weed which look like seaweed and grow in their bogs just like it, but it tastes like cauliflower and can last well through the winter beneath the surface, and then they've got those, whattyamay-callems, lily feeds. They float on the water and their flowers can be ground to a decent type of flour in their water mills. And they've even got the odd bog-swine and their alligators for meat and eggs.
I say you, if you can stand the smell and the diseases of the bogs, there's a good living to be done there.
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>>44655588

Fine, a fucking wizard did it

Happy now faggot?

If you'd read the actual comment it was defining how power structures would generally be laid out as a result of the envrionment. From there you can take steps to figure out further interaction.

Alternatively you could just go Peter the Great route and see a swamp that you want a capitol in. Then you just proceed to fill it with dirt and the bodies of peasants until it can support a city (and consequently isnt a swamp anymore)
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>>44655371
Lets start by clarifying something important. By swamp do actucually specifically mean swamp? Not marsh, bog, wetland, fen, or any other environment that falls in that category? Because swamps are literally the worst one of those for having any sort of advanced civilization in. Just want to know what we're working with here.
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>>44655690
Oh, as for military:

>Local militia primarily
>Populace in general is well-armed out of fear of wildlife or savages
>If powerful enough economy, a very large navy
>Definitely riverboat patrols
>Don't invade, here be guerrilla warfare in a swamp
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Polders growing food everywhere. Maybe some ancient technology that keeps them from flooding, or magic, or maybe the kingdom is dutch. Giant swamp rats or worms that burrow into the polders and have to be dealt with.
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>>44655904
no you cockmongler. "a wizard did it" is just as creative as a horsedick is a flute. Which means for normal people that it isn't the same fucking things.

Be creative and innovative for once. Make the swamp big, nobody says you can't, put macguffin in it, or monsters or monster kings and kingmonsters. Make up weird shit and make it fun. or make it FUN, like assholia
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>>44655371
>>
Well they probably tried to (unsuccessfully) build several castles before finally getting one that didn't fall apart. They'd also be hurting for some territory that's more useful, so you can imagine the heir being married off to get some huge tracts of land. And I can't imagine them being too smart, so even their guards would be ineffective against even a one-man assault.
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>>44655588
Creole Frog-People?
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>>44655371
Niggers
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>>44655371
Sparse. HoMM3's Fortress comes to mind, mostly magic serpent-themes beasts led by Beastmasters and Witches.
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>>44655371
Does the entire kingdom have to be located down in the swamp? Because there's a lot of room up there among the treetops.
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1. They grow food in their swamp
2. A lot of trade has to pass through the swamp, paying taxes to the swamp kingdom
3. They are pretty much the only ones who know how to navigate the swamp and at its center is a massive loads of wealth.
4. There's a king I'm Arthurian legend who has a castle in the middle of a swamp btw
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>>44655512
>>44655564
>>44655690

Good stuff.
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Like this?
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>>44655371
How extensive is the city planning and infrastructure?

Swamps don't mean shit really. London is built on a swamp, so is New York.
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>>44656443
Yes
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When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. And that one sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get, Son, the strongest castle in all of England!
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I think Paris is a dried up swamp. Also, I think the Netherlands/Belgium are very much a swamp too.
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>>44655904
I support the other guy. Fuck you. You are on /tg/, have thus literally no limitations in terms of stuff you can come up with, and all you do is barf hot dust of uncreativity.
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>>44656060
>Well they probably tried to (unsuccessfully) build several castles before finally getting one that didn't fall apart.
That's essentially how St.Petersburg was built. It sank into the swamp several times until material accumulated underwater was enough to provide a somewhat solid foundation.

For a fantasy game you could have swamptown be built on something that existed before swamp was created, some city of Ancient Extinct Race(tm) or ruins of enormous temple complex dedicated to forgotten gods.
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>>44655371

Give them the best natural deep ports in the continent. Instant economical powerhouse protected by kilometers of swamps and canals.
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>>44656651
and ruins of houses of people who said "fuck this, I will live here and NONE OF YOU can stop me"
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>>44655371
Idea: what if the swamp itself doesn't export anything, but acts as a trade route between two rich areas? Nobody can navigate through it without the aids of the kingdom's aid, which charges steep fees for its troubles. Anyone refuses to pay or tries to go through on their own gets blocked, their caravans disappearing for good until amends are made. Conflict within the swamp is all about controlling the trade routes, and its internal strife is kept far away from the routes and the ears of the neighboring powers.
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>>44656299
very old swamp, millenia old trees larger than giant sequoias

Housing: society lives in treehouses which are connected to each other and connected by rope ladders to floating docks that are built around the base of trees so they do not drift away and can adjust to water level. the few hammocks ( seasonal dry spots ) are used as common areas and cannot be owned

Diet: consists of frogs, fish, some vegetation and fruits from the forest canopy, and specially cultivated algae which is dried in kilns and beaten into a type of flour.

Materials: Wood is plentiful, metallurgy is primitive with ores only available through trade and dredging, cloth is made from silk or tough plant fibers, stonework is not used but earthen furnaces and ovens are present.

Exports: Silk is the chief export, followed by a spice called sakteng which are the stamens of a species of water lotus, similar to saffron.

Millitary: Infantry wear armor made from a slick bark which is superior to leather in both durability and flexibility but must be kept moist at all times or it will split and shatter. They wield bell shaped shields made from the same material. They fight with blowguns which fire poison darts made from fish bones. In melee, they use first javelins made from a reed like bamboo, then switch to common shortswords.
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>>44656721
Could be a good explanation for megadungeon.
>First layers are fairly mundane - houses, some flooded, some with pockets of air, with oozez and other shit like that crawling all around
>Somewhere down there houses become more bizarre, some of them are still protected by millenia-old shielding magics, golems trudging through flooded corridors. The ancient city was build as a seal to the lower levels.
>Underneath the ancient city there's PH'NGLUI MGLW'NAFH CTHULHU R'LYEH WGAH'NAGL FHTAGN
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>>44656590
Netherlands used to be swamp
then their people said "naw fuck this shit" and turned it into some of the most fertile farmland in europe
then they took a look at the sea and went "we can one-up that whole swamp thing"

crazy part: they totally did
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>>44656882
Yeah, but they'll need scuba gear soon.
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>>44656918
If they could shit all over a huge swamp they can acquire enough scuba gear.
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>>44656918
they're actually investing in floating cities
a nation of sailors faced with the wrath of the ocean turning their entire country into a giant fleet

sounds like fantasy doesn't it?
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>>44656918
>we cant add 8 inches to our dykes its too expensive
>funds the most LGBT+ inclusive health insurance system in europe
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Rotterdam is the largest port in all of Europe and Europe's biggest gateway to the global overseas markets.
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>>44656786
Final fantasy xii?
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>>44657310
No thanks, I'm trying to quit.
Actually I was thinking of Mehiho.
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>>44657325
(I mean, inspired by Mehiho, it's not like Mehiho is anything like the described situation. Look, just leave me alone, alright, I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.)
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>>44655371
>>44655437
Who are the Aztecs?
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Who builds a castle in a bloody swamp?
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North Vietnam
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>>44657668
Someone with a swamp, lots of stone, and too much time on their hands.
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>>44655371
Lizardmen.
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>>44655371
This is something I've actually been working with in my own world. Well, sorta.
One of the more dominant cultures of my world is a confederacy of kingdoms that inhabit a montane boreal peat swamp forest.
I haven't given too much thought to the economy, but militarily they're shaped by the enormous amount of iron and carbon available to them from the bog, and the usage of peat as a fuel source. Iron and steel are readily available, but because of the acidic nature of the bog, it also experiences a lot of wear and tear. For that reason, I figured that they would wear something like steel scale armor, similar to Byzantine cataphract armor, so that individual scales could be removed or replaced as needed depending on wear and tear.
Because of the thick tree cover, cavalry is not really an option, so most fighting occurs either as guerilla warfare or in small skirmishes between scale armored combatants with short handled maces and shields.
For bows, I figured they would be similar to the real world Korean ones, since they're so compact.
Hopefully some of this is helpful and not entirely nonsensical.
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>>44655371
One would need swamp power to rule there
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>>44657668
>>44657691
A not-to-ambitious necromancer.

No one else wants a swamp, low chance to have the world unite to obliterate you just for some swampland and your faux pas sexual fetishes.

lots of dead things in swamps.

The concept of time (travel, building,, etc.) and the sense of smell isn't a big deal to the immortal undead.
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>>44655437
>>44657554
What is Finland
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>>44657554
The Aztecs lived on a clean, freshwater lake and built islands on it, they did not build on a swamp. They were exiled to an island in the middle of Lake Texcoco, and they engineered and reclaimed land enough to build actual buildings.

Actual swamps are full of trees, rocks, and other hazards, let alone the contaminated water and the diseases rampant in that environment.
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>>44655371
The swamp is a salt fen. Their economy is based on the production of salt of all grades for export to neighboring kingdoms.

They use the hardwood of the swamp for buildings, superior shields, and the production of charcoal used in smithing or salt boiling.

A large portion of the populace belong to one or more religious orders, founded by isolated monastaries on islets found throughout the swamp.

Being so fertile, the swamp kingdom has an obesity epidemic.
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>>44657709
This is a common misnomer.
Sure that was a lizards natural habit to begin with, but that was strictly based on their diet/prey.
Once lizards evolved to lizardmen and earned the distinction by mastering basic language, agriculture, and construction the lizardmen built an environment that suited their sense of comfort. A hot flat rock.
No they wouldn't build in a swamp for the same reason any other society tries not to build in a swamp. Buildings sink in it.
Lizardmen live in an Egyptian-esk society. (The Nile is mandatory for their skin)
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>>44658129
>(The Nile is mandatory for their skin)
#triggered

Lizards aren't amphibians, you fucking philistine. They don't need water for their skin.
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>>44658149
There are many different breeds of lizardmen like any other race.

>Some are some aren't
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>>44658188
Unless these are sea-serpentmen, there's no goddamn reason a reptile would need skin moisturizer.
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>>44658188
No. Fuck off, you cunt. There are ZERO Lizard species that require their skin to be moist, because they wouldn't be fucking lizards, why would be amphibians.

Lizards by DEFINITION do not require moisture.
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>>44655371
like this
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Swamp mermaids.

Anon, remember this?
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>>44657966
The scrotum of Scandinavia.
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>>44658327
You mean manatees? I guess they could build rudimentary huts out of roots and rocks, but they'd eventually rot or erode.
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>>44655371
If the swamp was on the coast, like louisiana, they could be a kingdom that thrives off of trade. If it's just a swamp in the middle of some landmass, then it'll be tribal groups who forage and hunt because you can't do any meaningful agriculture and no agriculture = no major cities
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>>44658327
Where are my Southern swamp mermaid vs naga anons?
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>>44655690
Louisiana has oil too ya kno
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>>44655437
Well the third time, my castle stood up!
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>>44655457
Take your shit meme back to reddit.
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>>44655371
South Carolina fag here.

River trade and river boats

Rice cultivation, as has been mentioned

Indigo cultivation was a huge business as well. Consider dyes and the dye trade.

Settlements are few and far between connected by trails or boat

Independent militias serving each town

Set your kingdom up as a series of plantations and villages, each ruled by a land owner who in turn answers to the king in the capital, which is probably a port town. Look to Acadians for culture ideas.
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>>44658057
>At the time of Spanish conquests, Mexico City comprised Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco at the same time. Since then, the city extended from north to south from the north border of Tlatelolco to the swamps, which by that time were gradually disappearing to the west, the city ended more or less at the present location of Avenida Bucareli.
>Lake Texcoco was the largest of the five interconnected lakes. Since it formed in an endorheic basin lake, Lake Texcoco was brackish. During the reign of Moctezuma I, the "levee of Nezahualcoyotl" was constructed, reputedly designed by Nezahualcoyotl. Estimated to be 12 to 16 km (7.5 to 9.9 mi) in length, the levee was completed circa 1453; the levee kept the spring-fed fresh water in the waters around Tenochtitlan and kept the brackish waters beyond the dike, to the east.

Nice work on making the wrongest post you possibly could.
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>>44655588
Okay, the cities and towns are on floating islands above the swamp and everyone uses air travel, thus movement is not restricted by the swamp, nor is liveable land since when the population increases, wizards just add more land to the islands.
The kingdom sustains itself on iron dredging or refining swamp gases by sending workers down to the surface for their day jobs, etc.

But no matter how you spin it, there is no logical reason anyone would ever make a respectable settlement in a swamp with a functional society connected to the outside world. At best, it's gonna be tiny tribes surviving in the swamp, hardly prospering by any definition of the word, but NEVER a Kingdom.
A Kingdom's territory might contain mostly swampland, but as >>44655542 pointed out, the big important towns/cities/roadway/farmland would not be located in the swamp itself.
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>>44656509
Those are more like wetlands, but OP wasn't really being specific.
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>>44655437
Pretty sure Venice started as a marshy shit pile habited by a few fishermen.
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>>44655371
You don't build a kingdom on a swamp. You turn the swamp into a kingdom
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>>44658188
>Toads Skinks and Lizards need to live near a river to survive.

Go take a walk through a blood forest you retard.
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>>44655371
I have a tribal/pirate/proto-kingdom city in a swamp on my setting. Being a haven for piracy, it is mostly a trading town which supplies the pirates and sells their loot.

The vikings, or some ancestors of them, hid their ships inside swamp's waters. Something about the conditions preserving the wood.

They tame crocodiles for security and pic related for amphibious cavarly. They don't have big walls, crossing the swamp is the bane of most invaders

Breed giant dragonflies and bats, have flytrap gardens and lots of foul incense to manage the mosquitoes in populated areas.

Their 'city' is mostly made of island districts connected by plank walkways. Plus hundreds of crannogs.

They breed fishes and crabs on pools, besides fishing the rivers.
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>>44656851
You may want to look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground
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>>44657966
A backwater which was a province of Sweden for most of its existence.
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>>44655371
So, literally nobody on /tg/ played HoMM3, I take it.
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>>44655371
Peat could be a major product, besides functioning as fuel peat can also be used to produce salt through boiling and tar through coking. Salt could be especially valuable, if you need some more info on the process: http://users.bart.nl/~leenders/txt/zout-eng.html
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>>44656443
>>44663207

My Niggas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x20AFkjaZqo
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>>44663503
3rd turn Viverns for life yo.
>>
Perhaps the swamp is unique, a font of pure and uncontrolled life. Druids from across the world will all make pilgrimage here at some point in their lives, but as with all things natural, it must be tempered and pruned when need be.

Everything that could live is birthed from this Swamp, new and unknowable forms of life climb from the filthy water with alarming regularity and Alchemists and Men and Women of Science have set up laboratories inside the Swamp to study these wonderous creatures.

Of course, not all life is peaceful. Scarcely, creatures with a mind for destruction and rage unveil themselves and begin to destroy and butcher all within reach. A standing guard of Stilt-walkers are on permanent duty, patrolling the swamp and putting down any life too dangerous to live.

This Swamp-outpost survives purely on the value of its research and output, nobles will pay handsomely for cuts of fur from creatures that have not yet been catalogued by the Druids, foolhardy adventurers are commonplace as bidders seek to avoid the extortionate fee's that Alchemists will charge for mounted beast-heads and other trinkets.

The trick here is, you mix two things together and hopefully something cool happens. Above is Pacific Rim and Stalker.
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Dunno if it's been mentioned already, but East Anglia was a kingdom, even if a little one. It was a swamp (and basically still is). Read about it.
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>>44655371
Well I guess the peat is gonna be profitable.
Not good crops so their farms would be pretty shit.
For military they would be extremely weak, their land being their strongest defence, diplomacy would also be their most sought after option.
Add some cajun wizards with redneck accents for hilarity and there you go.
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>>44658328
Finland ain't a part of Scandinavia
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>>44663836
Well they are not slavic.

Guess they are their own part of the world then.
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>>44663836
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>>44657966
how are we a swamp
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>>44657966
Yeah and they were never able to hold shit until the invention of advanced rifling.
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>>44655437
I figure there could be if the swamp was the only path from point A to B and a lord owned the only roads through.
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>>44657966
Certainly not notable.
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>>44663207
>not reading the thread
It's not like HoMM3 is known for its great take on infrastructure or societal organization or anything, anyway.
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>>44655437
What is colonial America.
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>>44664333
what is a kingdom
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>>44664174
This basically if they control the only paths through a large swamp and charged a toll for all who use their roads they could make a killing on it. If another kingdom tried to invade the swamp would be insanely defensable,have the roades fortified and collapse them if all else fails and it's not gonna be easy to invade.
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>>44656882
fuck off back to cracked
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>>44664375
What idiot would try to attack a swamp?
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>>44664764
Nobody really,that's why it would be easy enough to retain independance.
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>>44661763
Wrong, it started as a federation of coastal towns relying on seatrade and agriculture who decided to build their capital (Venice) well into the lagoon for defensive reasons and also to have a neutral geound between the not so friendly federation members.
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>>44665219
Swamp dweller here.

Kinda eh. Other people will just come, declare that your swamp is now Royal/Imperial/Whatever lands and sod off. Occasionally you will hear of battles going on somewhere in the drylands nearby, and a different-accented herald will then visit and declare that this land has a new owner. After which he will also sod off forever.

That doesn't affect your lifestyle at all (even tax collectors don't bother visiting since NO ROADS), but as far as maps and history concerned - you are not actually independent.
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>why would you live in a swamp

Valuable resources such as medicinal or addictive herbs that grow in a swampy environment. They need to be processed on site, or they're useless.
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>>44665344
That is a reason enough for an INDIVIDUAL to live nearby. Perhaps even a small settlement specialized on trade in products of said herbs.
That is not a reason why a KINGDOM would exist in a swamp.

And while we are on the subject, we really need to answer "what kind of swamp" we are talking about here. A peat-rich moor? A wide coastal mangrove and brackwater swamp? Delta of a great river? Muskeg? Numa?
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>>44664764
The Iron Duke.

>Pressing his advantage, he began organizing an assault on the new Paraguayan defenses which López had thrown up along the Pikysyry, south of Asunción (Paraguay's capital). This stream afforded a strong defensive position which was anchored by the Paraguay River and by the swampy jungle of the Chaco region, both considered to be nearly impassable by a large force. Rather than making a frontal attack on López's line, Caxias had a road cut through the Chaco. The road was finished by early December, allowing the allied forces to outflank the Paraguayan lines and attack from the rear.
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>>44665408
The resource rich swamp is also huge (kingdom sized), and all the settlements have banded together under a centralized ruler for mutual protection and trade regulation (think OPEC with a military). There.

Your objection is silly. All you need for a kingdom is a commonish culture amongst a lot of people that gets them to agree on governance.

All you need for that is a reason for people to go to a location. Time and instinct will eventually do the rest.
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Ain't nobody buildin' a castle on MY swamp
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>>44665553
I'm sorry, but you are a moron.

Do understand what a kingdom is and how it's formed? You do not build a kingdom around one resource. And DEFINITELY not around a fucking herb.
Kingdom means complex and hiearchical society you idiot. Something you don't exactly get when you can do is to make niche market trade based on a local herb that is in short supply. You don't build a fucking city on some herb, and you definitely don't form aristocracy on picking a fucking herb. It can be a nice supplement to your economy, but you still need thousands and thousands of people doing all kinds of jobs, vast majority of those is FOOD PRODUCTION which isn't exactly easy in most types of wetlands to get something resembling a fucking state.
How the fuck do you not know this?
>>
>>44655371
>>44655437
What is Prussia?
Seriously best example and case study for a fantasy setting probably.
>>
>>44665601
everyone grow herb
everyone only eat herb
build city out of herb
no aristocracy only herb
>>
The only way to build a kingdom on a swamp area is to un-swamp it. There is no advantage to be found in keeping the swamp in its natural state which offers poor hygiene, poor transportation, poor farming, poor mining and poor building potential. If people do live there for one reason or another then they will un-swamp it over time.
>>
Small.

If they somehow found a way to actually build a sustainable society in a swamp, they would be pretty safe from outside threats due to swamps being pretty much impassable for armies. The military woud probably be something along a citizen militia to kill of the local bandits and other brigands.
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>>44665638
HERB REVOLUTION 2016
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>>44655371
>How could the military and the economy of a swamp* Kingdom look like?

You mean Venice or Prussia? Seems to work just fine.
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>>44665601
OP mentioned only most of the kingdom would be the swamp. You can still have holdings outside of it to supplement or even replace food importation.

Everything else you mentioned isn't even an objection. People being attracted to the business of plant exports enough to live there doesn't mean they couldn't form a complex hierarchical society, or cities or an of the other things you mentioned.

You seem to have taken "the reason people moved there in the first place" to be "literally the entire thing defining the kingdom."

In other words, you're a fucking retard, and should fuck off.
>>
Do any of you swamp burgers have links to some of that swamp guitar music?
>>
So far in this thread there have been three good examples:
Venice
Prussia
The Low Countries (Netherlands, Belgium)
These are all quite real examples of kingdoms at least starting fro mostly swampy areas. Anyone who thinks a kingdom in a swamp is impossible is clearly retarded.
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>>44665717
>You can still have holdings outside of it to supplement or even replace food importation.
In that case, it's not about a kingdom forming in a swamp, but a kingdom, that contains a swamp as a part of it's holding. In other words: almost every kingdom ever.
As for "not being objections", you really imagine this thing like a 10 years old. Let me reitterate, because this is something clearly confusing you:
Kingdom consists of thousands of people doing VERY VARIED JOBS. Except in a swamp, your opportunities aren't exactly broad. You don't fucking feed a city by collecting a swamp herb. Because thousand people won't make their living of collecting herb in the close vicinity of the city. Even if the fucking herbs pay their weight in gold you just can't achieve that. The fucking surroundings will be picked clean within a week and then you do what, exactly?

You have absolutely no right to call anyone a retard, retard, if these things elude you. One. FUCKING. RESOURCE is not enough for a kingdom to grow around. It's that fucking simple.
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>>44665843
Rice.
Everything you have said can be proven wrong by rice.
Entire kingdoms have sprung up throughout history based around rice farming as their main form of agriculture. Rice grows only in swamps.
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>>44665843
A kingdom with 90% of its holdings in a swamp, and 10% outside it is a swamp kingdom. Don't be obtuse.

Oh wait.
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>>44665915
Rice does not grow in swamps. It requires a lot of moisture, yes, some of the species even need permanent or semi-permanent water body to grow, but they also need fertile soil, and that is something that is genuinelly not common in swamps. Which by the way leads me again to: What kind of swamp we are talking here. That question is kind of a big deal, really.

Also, yeah - OK, so the soil is actually fertile: so they can grow rice. Which means deforesting the area and turning it into a not-a-swamp, and among other, also destroying the habitat of the aformentioned special herb.
So really, what is going on here is that people colonize and cultivate the swamp into a agrarian land. Which is actually what historically happened most of the time, and what most people proposed as the answer of "how to form a kingdom in a swamp" already: by making it not a swamp anymore.

And FYI: nothing I've said is proven wrong. What I've actually said is the idea of a kingdom springing around one local herb is fucking stupid: and it is fucking stupid.
The idea of kingdom being formed by cultivating previously uncultivated land, turning the swamp into something more habitable - that is a completely different deal.

>>44665943
A kingdom with 10% of not-swamp-settings would actually be a kingdom on the 10% of the lands formed there and only there, and the rest being sparsely populated wildreness that formally belongs to the kingdom, but in reality it's just badlands. And the kingdom formed in the not-swamp. Absolute majority of it's population lives in the not-swamp. The cities don't lie in the swamp, the population centers are not in the swamp, and really: it's not a swamp kingdom, it's a kingdom with big swamp on it's borders.
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>>44665774
There's a difference between a kingdom that started on a swamp and a kingdom built on an area that remained a swamp. You cite examples of the first thing and pretend that it proves the second thing. It doesn't. There are no kingdoms built on areas that permanently remained swamps in the long term. I think it's fair to say that by the time a human settlement has sufficiently progressed to reach the arbitrary point of being called a kingdom then the geography of the land has been sufficiently modified past the arbitrary point where it can still be called a swamp. There is no need to take it personally if the real world doesn't match fantasy creative thinking.
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>>44666112

Taking this logic to it's conclusion, there are no concievable kingdoms because time exists.
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>>44655437
ALL THE OTHER KINGS SAID IT WAS DAFT TO BUILD A CASTLE IN A SWAMP
BUT I BUILT IT ALL THE SAME
JUST TO SHOW EM
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>>44655512
peat makes for great fuel as well
maybe they could run an economy just shipping out the peat as a cheap fuel source.

as for food production, the Aztec farmed in the middle of swamps with hydroponic setups and had massive yields
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>>44666210
And it sank into the swamp.
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>>44658285
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>>44666175
Making a gross and meaningless exaggerations is not taking logic to its conclusion. Kingdoms can exist. However the concept of a kingdom is typically associated with the concept of a large human settlement. Large human settlements modify their surroundings to make the land hospitable. Swamps are not hospitable. Therefore a large human settlement will inevitably un-swamp the area.
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>>44661254
like Morrowind almost
except with silt striders in addition to boats
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>>44655371
Go take a look at Holland
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>>44666242
>peat makes for great fuel as well
Peat is used to make coal, to be specific.

That said, you can't have a kingdom economy running on peat. It makes a nice auxiliary source of income, but certainly not enough to fuel an economy. In fact, peat mining regions were in general NOTORIOUSLY poor.

As for farming, no, Aztecs did not farmed in the middle of swamps. Aztecs farmed in a middle of a lake as well as on drier, EXTREMELY FUCKING FERTILE lands. They had one extremely fertile valley, and one lake they used for the chinampas. Calling what Aztecs had a "swamp" like calling the old Nile river banks a "swamp".
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>>44662167
what the actual fuck is a toad skink, or a toad lizard - I surely hope you aren't talking about salamanders and newts; which both ARE Amphibians.
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>>44666530
How fucking retarded are you?

Toads do not require constant moisture for their skin.

Skinks are a type of lizard. A reptile.

Saurus are obviously giant lizards. That do not require a shot load of moisture.

Lizards adapt to living in dry conditions, their skin helps them retain water and they even sometimes shit out chalk for their urine because they are so well adapted at retaining water.
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>>44666816
I know what a toad is, and what a lizard is - I don't know what a toadlizard or a toadskink is, but good reading comprehension 10/10 made me reply.
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>>44666878
>good reading comprehension 10/10 made me reply.

Says the retard thinking anyone is talking about toadskinks or toadlizards and thinking anyone was talking about amphibians.
>>
the previous poster wasn't me, and I suppose its to much to ask for a comma where there ought to be one :^)
>>44666530
>>44666878
are my only posts.
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>>44655371
>collects methane via swamp gas
>sells swamp gas to kingdom's that can use it for electricity
>military is mostly made up of men riding on the backs of bigger men to get through said methane gas swamps
>smallest man runs odor dome
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>>44655508
St. Peterburg is built on a swamp.

Unfrotunately the swamp was destroyed to build th ecity so it doesn't really apply here.
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>>44667044
Technically, it was build in a marsh, not a swamp. Not a big difference, but marches are not forested, while swamps are.
Also, the construction of St. Peterburg is well known as a historical example of absolute insanity and despotism as the construction costed thousands of lives and was obscenely expensive and inefficient due to the conditions in the marshlands. Not a best model on how a kingdom should be born from a swamp.

Really, the most "logical" answer to OP's question, without resulting to "magic" and "it's race that thrives in swamps" is that it was founded by colonists, leaving an overpopulated realm and slowly reclaiming and cultivating the swamps because there isn't much anywhere else to live already.
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>>44667154
ok now I know the difference between marsh and swamp. Thanks.

Well tons of dead umans make for fantastic settings. But you are right the most sensible part would be destroy the swamp but it will stop being a swamp setting.

any good reason of why the refused to destroy the swamp? Angry nature spirits?
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>>44667217
>any good reason of why the refused to destroy the swamp? Angry nature spirits?
Sacred significance, angry natural spirits, a very, VERY unfriendly local fauna, or maybe when they tried, people got infected by something really nasty, which the people interpreted as a divine punishment and now they don't dare to touch it (which is, come to think of it, backstory for sacred significance). Also: if they have anywhere else to go, they will go there first and leave the swamp as a final option.

The problem is, if they don't destroy the swamp, it is going to be very difficult to live there. And it's going to be especially difficult to establish any form of infrastructure.

Again, you can go the big fantasy route. In fantasy worlds, food is often not that much of a concern, so you can just go with that and handwave it. In my own world-building, agriculture is extremely poor and considerable portion of food is provided by trade with some alien civilization, so it could theoretically work there. Though I have not really considered that option (aside from cities build in river wetlands and deltas).

It makes sense for me to have people living in swamps and marches, some societies typical to them even or a city build in a former wetland, but not entire kingdoms based there. Peat, and potentially herbs and shit aren't attractive enough.
>>
Most of costruction would be made of wood due to it's avalibility. Who can you treat the wood to resist rotting in such a wet place?

Some woods are very resistant to rot. Venice is built on top of Siberian cedar trunks and it they still hold. But I don't think you can find cedars in swamps.

You can use bamboo treated with Boric Acid Borax. Here is a woman that building giant houses on bamboo in Malasya (Hotter then a swamp and probably just as wet) and it is said they will hold up at least 50 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_UjBmHqQw
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>>44656569
under that castle there 3 more castles going deeper and deeper undergrund.

Lot of mages nowday instead of towers build small houses and let them sink in the swamp. Then let built a small entrance in a tree or something and happily life underthe water line hidden from common eyes.
>>
frog men living in the swamps.

Trees from 20-50 ft high which they carve out niches close to the bottom of to live.
They use their legs to launch themselves off of the trees in order to spear the large fish that breed and live among the swamps, they supplement their diet with deepwater rice.

Blowdarts, composite bows and spears are their primary weapons, with spears able to do extreme damage when coupled with their explosive jumping prowess.

They live in extended family groups, usually in trees centered around a single matriarch tree, where the main family lives.
Families trade with each other for goods and services, such as animal bone for carving and furs to shelter their young on harsh days; services include killing beasts that threaten their tadpoles and eggs that they aren't able to handle themselves, gathering up each other's young when heavy rains displace them, and repelling invaders that enter Family Lands.

pretty shit if you ask me, threw it together in a couple of minutes. Feel free to improve.
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Found this

"The buildings of Venice are constructed on closely spaced wood piles,
which were imported from the mainland. (Under water, in the absence of
oxygen, wood does not decay. It is petrified as a result of the
constant flow of mineral-rich water around and through it, so that it
becomes a stone-like structure.) "

You build a csatle of wood and after a few generations it turns to stone.
Maybe with elements of bog iron. Add soem fatnasy and a wood castle turns into soemthing as saolid as reinforced concrete.
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>>44656790
underrated post.

I approve everything he said.
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>>44667603
Constant skirmishes with the crocodilians and turtle folk, who compete for food and territory. Theif keeps are built with petrified logs and sparse stone found within the sucking soils. Small lantern bugs keep their territory lit and allow travellers somewhat safer passage, but will-o-wisps and muck leeches are a constant worry.

Occasionally, a band of elves or humans ventures in to barter or chart the lands. Paper is rare and maps are highly prized and preserved with utmost care. Higher ranking swamp denizens make elaborate iron cases for their maps and display them as a sign of status. Musical instruments are common as wood is abundant, and the various swamp people can often be heard from miles away in reverie, but the direction of the sounds is difficult to pinpoint due to reverberations from the trees and winding footpaths being the only sure footing for landwalkers.
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>>44658057
>the Aztec Empire was only Tenotchticlan
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>>44667617

Thats actually pretty interesting. However only the wooden parts beneath the castle would actually petrify. So essentially what you would have to do is establish wood quarries where you stuck would down into for an (indeterminate) amount of time and then pull them out.

This could also serve as some form of export if your fantasy setting has some uber hard petrified trees.
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>>44668116
Most of the actual Aztecs lived there. They had vassals all throughout the region of Mexico, who really fucking hated them.
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>>44668116
people sure are retarded right anon?
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>>44668141
they really fucking hated them.
Helped the spanish.
Then were later subjected and raped just like the Aztec were.

Pretty smart if I do say so myself.
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>>44655371
I grew up in south carolina. Charleston area.

Mostly swamp around there. they call it the low country.

Guy named francis marion was nicknamed the swamp fox. look dat shit up.
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>>44668089
Magically warped trees twist into fortified living castles armed with highly poisonous and sharp flora from the surrounding environment. The locals have grown resistant, but not yet immune, to most of these plants and will often make their doorways out of them.

Currency is made from gold and platinum like other lands, but iron replaces lower value coinage due to it's prevalence. Great care is taken to protect the border regions near the grasslands and Highlands from those seeking their lumber. The frogmen especially, lacking the tough shells of the turtle folk or the strong scales of the crocodilians, value the rigidity of their trees as their source of strength and view all attempts to remove them as a challenge to their power. Primary deities of the swamp include the God of travelers, who protects the people from the monsters of their land, the God of water, who replenishes their crops and keeps their lands fresh and free of decay, the God of war, who grants them the fury to tame their holds, and the God of nature, who builds their homes and protects them from outsiders
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>>44660900
Big tracts of land?
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>>44657030
if that's true they're just asking to get rekt aren't they
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>>44665408
lets just say its a massive swamp that encompasses all those
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>>44669725
That's not how it works. Look up the words that the kind anon said and tell us what kind of swamp it is.
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>>44669725
I don't think so. Not unless your geography is an ungodly abortion of reason.
This is titled worldbuilding thread, so start getting your details straight.
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>>44668308
>>44668089
>>44667603
I'm digging it.
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>>44655371
In my group's setting, we made a nation of marsh dwellers that were equivalent to Spartans. A country of badass warriors who are the only ones capable of thriving in such a harsh environment
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>>44670997
That might make more sense in a steppe, or a desert. Marsh is not harsh in the "oh my god living here is so harsh it makes you stronger". Marsh is harsh in the "you are going to die of dysentery while mosquito's gonna bite your eyeballs" way. Not much strength is going to against disease, general lack of food and snakes.
>>
Deku kingdom from majoras mask?
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>>44671438
That does make sense - they're a plant people, so they'd be well suited to a swampy environment where even lizards might not like it.

It might be a refuge for a lot of nature spirits, like dryads or nymphs, who were pushed out of their natural forests.
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>>44661699
One idea already mentione din the thread is that the swamp is around a river near the cost and the city is a big commercial city and uses the swamp land as protection against invaders by land.
>>
>>44666112
>>44666042
>>44665843
You can't build a kingdom around one resource but you can built a city around one resource.

Not in medieval times, but I'm pretty sure Stalin made cities in nowhere and brought people there to work on a specific industry and mine specifc resources.

If you have a despotic king that really needs that herb he send all his prisoners to work collecting herb in the swamp and makes a city to regulate the works.
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>>44672960
>Not in medieval times, but I'm pretty sure Stalin made cities in nowhere and brought people there to work on a specific industry and mine specifc resources.
Well when we are talking about 20th century we generally don't tend to talk about "kingdoms". And if you are despotic king who sends his prisoners to collect herbs, you are making a camp there, not a city. A city: permanent habitat. Requires infrastructure that would support the permanent residency of the inhabitants.

You can force people there and pump supplies for a while, but that is not a city. It's a prison, or a camp at best.
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>>44668133
wood is a material with which working is easy. You make an armor of wood. Submerge in into the swamp for a year and a day and you get super resitant rock hard armor.
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>>44673124
again stalin. If you make camp big enough it will need infrastructure and turn into a permanent habitat.
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>>44673350
And again Stalin is 20th century.
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>>44673244
>day and you get super resitant rock hard armor.
Ever wonder why people didn't wear rock armor? Well, then you know why people don't submerge wood under water for a century and then make armor out of that.
It's a fucking rock. It does not make for particularly amazing armor.
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>>44656569
>this wasn't the first reply
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>>44673124
Egyptians built entire cities to house workers who worked on tombs or on the pyramids. Considering that might take generations, I'd call those permanent enough.
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>>44655371

I've never had a kingdom in a swamp, but I did have a swamp town in my campaign. The swamp water had unique minerals in it that tended to stain things green.
They processed the swamp water into dye and exported it.
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>>44655371
In one of my D&D games I had a swamp kingdom known as the Spiritmire. The idea was that ghosts and spirits don't leave the world when they die so they had to make their own home, the Spiritmire came to be their home since none of the living creatures wanted it anyway. They're actually really chill, go about their business and leave people alone. Necromancers are all over the city as priests and emissaries, practice of necromancy outside of the priesthood was punishable by assimilation into the city. I liked that setting.
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>>44655371
You know the swamp kingdom in Heroes 3 was one of my fabourites
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>>44655371
You know most of the Aztec Empire was build over a swamp?
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>>44655512

Economy;

They sell rare herbs for medicines, poisons, aphrodisiacs.

Some iron dredged from the swamps. Maybe make it a rare and valuable metal.

Famous for their hard spirits made from peat and ferment boggy bits.

Some forestry and subsistence fishing and hunting in the lower ends of the ladder. Maybe farming the soggier end of the crops . Think rice paddies and cranberries.

Military;

Backwoods militia. Think vicious bayou rednecks specializing in hit-and-run tactics, sabotage, booby traps and poison.
>>
>>44655371
Sorry if it's been said, but...

Rice, rice baby, du nu nu nuh, du nu nu nhu,
Rice, rice baby.

Look at Vietnam, South China and Bengal.
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>>44665638
Basically Arrakis, just soggy?
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>>44678057

I suppose it would all depend on whether it's a bayou, a bog, or a swamp, what's the climate independent of these wetlands? Is it tropical, temperate? Hot and muggy or cold and foggy?
>>
>>44655545
>>44655437
>>44655923
>>44656060
>>44657668
>>44657709
>>44657768

Ha! Look at these morons. They're never heard of the Aztec city of Tenochitlan!
Or Venice!
Or Amsterdam!
Or Bangkok!
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>>44655371
I imagine the economy would be based on fungus (food & drug), fish, maybe timber. The military probably wouldn't be to impressive, standard guards and a few patrol boats.
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>>44680607
Tenochitlan was a man made island on a lake, not really a swamp

Venice was a lagoon, not a swamp

Amsterdam was originally a dam on a river, and they just reclaimed land from the sea, not really a swamp

I don't know enough about Bangkok, but Thailand is mostly jungles, so you may be sort of right there.
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>>44663933
Scandinavia is a geographic term, you doofus
And it doesn't include Finland

The more you know
>>
>>44656060
Underrated comment.
>>
>>44657966
Western Russia
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>>44666348
That's why he built it tall, and put the ground floor on the third story. Alternatively, it's why you build from bedrock.
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>>44681104
>The military probably wouldn't be to impressive
NO! This needs to be fixed. We need this swamp kingdom to have a history of invasion for it's delicious nutritious swamp juice.

We need a hardy but free spirited and fiercely independent people who've shiv'd invasion force scouts and disappeared into the dark murk. Who've trained the very beasts to seek the blood of non-natives...groomed plants to spit their poison where only the unwelcome would step!

We need something more than an "unimpressive" military. We need Not-Argonians!
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>>44665408
are you clinically retarded? Swamps are prime places for people to live. Most cities were built within river deltas, highly swampy area which meant fertile soil, lots of wood, and lots of boat access. Seriously how are you this ignorant?
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>>44665601
No, are you retarded? Swamps are highly fertile, and draining swamps is something that has been done since ancient times. On top of that they are frequently good sources of iron AND often have easy boat access which is how 90% of trade was done. Pull your head out of your ass
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>>44673500
If submerged into the sacred swamp of hidden mosquitos the armor becomes hard as rock but remains as flexible as wood.
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>>44668381
Huuooge tracts
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>>44665601
What is the Emirate of Abu Dhabi? If we're talking a common herb, no. But yes, you can build a kingdom in unwelcoming terrain out of one rare resource. Maybe not a long-lasting kingdom, maybe not a big one, but if there's money, you can pretty much do anything. Not all kingdoms are huge sprawling empires.
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>>44684242
Usually those stop being swamps after a few centuries of habitation.
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>>44685084

Yes, but still plenty of time to have a swamp kingdom.
>>
What encounters would you have players face in a swamp?

Pic related.
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>>44684242
>>44684272
Wow, the retarded legion arrived.
See: >>44666042 and stop being such insufferable cunts.
>>
what about a once thriving kingdom who's lands have slowly turned into swamps thanks to climate change/agricultural mismanagement/angry wizards and the people who live there refuse to just up and abandon their homes instead choosing to try and fight nature and survive in any way they can?
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>>44685863
Leeches
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>>44685863
>What encounters would you have players face in a swamp?
Dysentery and tetanus.
>>
This is from a 40k novel series ('Gaunt's Ghosts', particularly 'Traitor General' and onwards). Pic related is a deviant art fanmade piece I dug out of google.
It's science fiction but imo easily appliable to other settings too.

"Eszrah ap Niht is a son of a Chief of the swamp dwelling Partisans, rebels who live in the Until swamplands of Gereon. [...] Eszrah is armed with his reynbow, a primitive weapon akin to a crossbow which uses magnets to propel quarrels tipped with a highly dangerous venom extracted from swamp moths of the Until on Gereon. Before battle he smears himself with gray "wode", or moth paste, which has peculiar abilities to somehow blend in with his environment. On Gereon Eszrah received a gift in the form of Sergeant Varl's prized pair of sun-shades to help him cope with the unaccustomed brightness outside of his native swamps and he has never removed them since, [...] He is an expert at stealth, rivalled only by Mkoll, who has an uncanny ability to spot him. His unusual appearance often unnerves people seeing him for the first time, as his skin colour is noted as being 'gun metal gray' due to the effects of the woad. Due to the fact he has worn it for so long, when he is 'cleaned up a little' his skin seems naturally grey."

Those partisans were something like 'Moth people.' The swamps were very foggy and poisonous if I remember correctly. Forgot how they live, somehow I think Ewok style.

The lack of creativity in this thread is alarming. The above example is nothing big, but there's so much potential. Introduce some gamechangers that makes the swamp worthwile to live in, like exotic/magic resources like (magical) fungi/ moth dust/ ore/ WHATEVER, and get your ass going to come up with some creative architecture.

"There wouldn't be a kingdom in the first place" belongs to the TRASH.
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>>44686729
I think I uploaded the wrong picture. I guess the text is referring to this pic (which I don't like as much).

I pictured the moth people to be bald, with round pilot-goggles, moth-eye style. Kinda like grey Aborigini swamp niggers with a certain level of technology and extreme level of specialised survival skills.
>>
Pyromancers >>44665301
>but as far as maps and history concerned - you are not actually independent.
This triggers me we should go kill them all
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>>44665408
It's a big swamp
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>>44686920
And?
What is it about that particular post that it attracts so much attention of people so utterly incapable of making any fucking sense?
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>>44655542
What is Aztec empire what is Tenochtitlan?
>>
Why do so many people think the only way for a kingdom to exist is to have stuff to trade externally? It helps, certainly, but self-reliance/raiding are also things people did. And hell, depending on time period trade wouldn't necessarily be kingdom-to-kingdom anyway, it would be down to individual traders doing what the fuck they wanted.
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>>44687541
>what is Tenochtitlan?
An artificial island on a massive lake you moron. It's not like this has been cleared out and clarified about a dozen times through out this fucking thread already. And the surrounding hills that were the secondary sources of Aztec agriculture were pretty damn dry fertile land.

Tenochtitlan was never a fucking swamp - it was a lake.

>>44687613
Would you mind giving us a little more context for that post? Because I have no clue how what you are saying is relevant here.
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>>44685863
There's something about swamps/jungles lit up at night that just love so much.
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>>44687677
A lot of posts in this thread are "they can mine peat/iron and trade it" or "they can harvest marsh gas/rare herbs and trade them" like the only justification for a kingdom is to have shit to trade with other kingdoms. Seems weird to me.
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>>44687757
The core problem everyone here is struggling with (quite logically) is that unless excessive cultivation of the swamp would happen (e.g. majority of the swamp being turned into not-swamp and used for agriculture), a kingdom largely or entirely located in a swamp would have major issues supplying food to it's population.

That is why people talk about options how to secure the food supply, and that has to be done by external trade: buying food from different, more food-productive nations.
You can't grow food in a swamp. You have to get it from somewhere. And it's not going to be free. It's as simple as that.
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>>44687788
I suppose I was thinking the swamp kingdom doesn't have to be human, or limited to human hunting/fishing methods. Or, indeed, human diets.
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>>44669556
It isn't. It's /pol/-tier raving, and the only reasoning you're not questioning two lines of shitty greentext is because you WANT to believe it.

Quite recently we closed one of the bigger gaps in our coastal perimeter, and built a nice carpark underneath it so people can park their cars under the beach.
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>>44687844
Well, yeah, several people proposed that theory, but there isn't actually much to be discussed about that. You can say the "people" survive on the swamp fumes alone or say there are magical crystal that can feed an entire family for a year commonly growing on trees or something, but the discussion generally tends to end there.
Most people, me including, simply took the question as a challenge to their knowledge of human social systems.
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>>44655371
It's kind of a hard question to answer without knowing what kind of swamp you're talking about or about the magic/races that exist in your setting.

I'm going to assume it is populated by humans, magic isn't a particularly big factor and the entire kingdom is swampland.

As other people in this thread have said swamps are really shitty places to live without massive engineering projects to make them less swampy, so it would be sparsely populated and have a highly decentralized government. Most villages might see the taxman every couple of years and have a local lawman who is nominally in the service of the king, if even that.
From this sort of rural dynamic I reckon three kind of kingdom might emerge.
If the kingdom has nothing going for it then it would just be shitty and impoverished with a king who has little power. The king probably owes his independence to most of his land being worthless and incredibly difficult to invade. Maybe the kingdom is mostly beholden to a nearby greater power.
If the kingdom has a significant position along a trade route it could become fantastically wealthy through this trade. There are lots of examples of major cities existing in wetlands (though few in actual swamp swamps). In this scenario the people who live outside of urban centers probably wouldn't matter very much.
The third scenario would be much like the second one except instead of the wealth coming from trade it comes from valuable resources extracted from the swamp. In this scenario there is a much more adversarial relationship between those in power and those whose land is exploited.
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Can we decide on how magical and exotic the swamp is? Theres alot of variables that are missing and just will lead to 200 more shitposts and "nuh uh" and "uh huh"
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>>44688181
nuh uh
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>>44688291
uh huh
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>>44655371
Gnomiah calvery on gaint frogs using 5th edition dnd.....
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>>44688520
Nuh uh
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>>44688181
Fuck it, imma make some shit up to get us started.
>The swamp has a large enough, and fast breeding enough, flying insect population for these to be a viable primary food source, along with fishing (well, hunting/trapping of all sorts of aquatic meat) and some gathering of edible berries, vines, and underwater weeds.
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>>44655371
The Aztecs are a good example they founded their capital over a swamp.
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>>44691522
Jesus you fucking retards, you could AT LEAST read the god damned thread...
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Knights riding their noble and valiant alligator steeds, pouncing upon the filthy solid-landers and tearing their silly horses with numerous and pointy teeth!

Also the alligators are big. Really big. Big enough to somehow work as mounts. Wizards are probably behind that.
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