"What did you roll again for these ability scores?"
"I rolled with everyone else, weren't you paying attention?"
"Oh, ok... what class did you say you were playing again?"
"This one I found on a forum, I showed it to you before and you said I was cool to use it."
"Ah. Could you show me how you got all these skills at level 1?"
"I left that book at home tonight, sorry, I'll show you next session."
"*sigh* Just gimme your back-story then..."
"So she's an orphan right? But she was raised on a desert planet just like Luke Skywalker! She lives in a wrecked walker, and she scrounges the desert every day for a meagre living.
She looks rough on the outside, all wrapped up in rags, but underneath she's actually hot!
But she's also a master mechanic, an ace pilot, a great shot with a blaster (although she doesn't have a blaster, and has never used one before. I figured one would come up in the campaign sooner or later).
She's a skilled fighter both hand to hand and with a staff. She can speak Droid, and Wookiee, as well as Basic and all these other languages. She's really smart.
She's force sensitive, but she can use Jedi powers better than anyone, and a lightsaber, even though she's never been trained! She can resist torture, and move through a massive military base unseen like a ninja. Even though she lived her childhood on a hell planet fending for herself, she's kind to lost droids and quick to make friends! Anyone she meets instantly trusts and likes her, offering her jobs, sending her on vital missions, etc. etc."
"Does she have any flaws? At all?"
"Oh yeah, her flaw is that she's too loyal and faithful. She still thinks that one day her parents will come back for her. She doesn't let it affect her though, she just thinks it. Ooh, you could use the parents as a plot hook later in the campaign!"
"I see. The others are waiting for us, I suppose we better get started. I think they rolled a renegade Stormtrooper and a pilot."
"This is gonna be awesome!"
You sure gave up on the old thread quickly.
I'm sorry you were so offended by TFA, but this ain't your place to vent.
You're right, that'd be a Gary Stu instead.
Fuck off, Tumblr
Seriously. Star Wars is just full of shit writing both in and out of the movies, and full of characters that could easily fall into a dozen different interpretations of Mary Sue. Complaining about this just feels silly to me.
You know someone who lives in a wrecked walker probably would be a good mechanic. Also considering the shit that lives on bloody desert planets in star wars it makes sense she is good at fighting. Luke shot womp rats from some sort of jet fighter thing.
Whats wrong with the mandos?
>high intelligence, wisdom and dexterity
>takes weapon finesse early because you don't have to spend credits to charge a stick
>force sensitive human bonus feat
>levels hits level 3 when she touched anakin's lightsaber, takes force training which gives her 1 + her wisdom modifier in force powers. Asks DM if she can leave the slots unfilled for now, DM thinks it's a cool idea
>>resisting kylo ren's mind powers
I'm sure I'm forgetting Something, but you should keep in mind that she doesn't use any of those powers twice.
>Or were the hints that Rey is related to Luke and was mindwiped too subtle?
Is this supposed to be a counterpoint to her being a Sue? Because it really isn't.
pointing out shitty, one-dimensional characters isn't based on their sex, you ninny. She's boring. Nothing is ever at risk of her failing. Seriously, what does she do wrong? I honestly don't remember anything from the movie besides it being a nonstop ride of action setpieces with almost no characterization or explanation.
What's really exasperating to me are the complaints about things the movie actually explains or are easily justified with a little thought, like someone who survives by stripping machines being good with mechanics.
You're aware that Luke was pretty shitty at everything, right? It took him two movies to fight Vader, and Vader pushed his shit in. The only thing he really does right up to that point is blowing up the Death Star.
In fact, the Emperor would've killed him if Darth Vader hadn't had a change of heart. The whole point is that Luke was never really that good at fighting, and fighting wasn't the solution anyway.
>rolling for ability scores
Look at him. Look at him and laught!
But more seriously OP, this look like a standard EotE / FaD character at mid-game. Don't try to apply D&D logic everywhere.
Pretty sure I would be. Poor writing is poor writing. Hell, I'm LESS inclined to give female characters shit over male characters because it's refreshing to see a female character that doesn't just say the MC's name on repeat eternally and get captured or go googly-eyed or pretend to be strong but really is a weak woman that just needs a dick in her. Even if it's shit writing it's better than the even shittier ruts that female characters tend to fall into.
But Rey is shit writing at an inexcusable level. The worst part is that almost all of her crap could be explained away with a single line at each scenario.
>Rey can pilot
>"I've been playing in this thing since I was a kid. I've never actually FLOWN it, but I know how it works well enough to pick it up pretty quickly."
>Rey can into blasters
>"I pretend to be a Resistance fighter when I'm done with work for a day. I used to use fake/broken blasters to practice. I have bad habits and the actual recoil/other attributes of a real blaster are surprising, but it's not an entirely alien concept to hold and brandish one." Alternatively, have her little helmet scene include a blaster. Even a broken one would do.
>Rey can into
Admittedly I don't have much of anything here. The best I've got is "Kylo Ren's personal bullshit was what caused the feedback, not her own skill or ability, and from there she took her advantage and figured out how to press it". This is sortof implied in the movie but not in any concrete way.
>Rey can lightsabers
No the fuck she can't. She tries to use a saber like a spear the entire time, constantly trying to stab the same spot over and over again and only actually getting a glancing blow in because Kylo Ren was having a really fucking bad day. And in the end she lost anyway.
If she doesn't get a Lightsaber Pike I'll be upset.
Rey a shit.
> It took him two movies to fight Vader, and Vader pushed his shit in.
Now hold on in the name of fairness Luke was fighting Darth Vader.
Rey was fighting Kylo Ren. Who is literally shitty wannabe Darth Vader.
Not that this doesn't offer its own problem with your villain but that's not exactly unjustifiable.
>hurr I scrap wrecked refrigerators and washing machines to pay for hotpockets
>that means I can hotwire and control a high-powered car I've never seen before at least as well as Mario Andretti
>Provide me with the male version of Rey.
Anakin Skywalker won a pod-race... apparently the first human to do so.
And he was able to pilot a ship into the middle of a heavily fortified trade federation ship and blow it up from the inside.
At 10 years old.
NOW you could argue that this is excusable because HE BECOMES THE VILLAIN buuut that's not exactly in his favor still.
>I'm just having a hard time getting over the fact that people are complaining about Mary Sues in a universe where Anakin and the Mandalorians exist.
We DO complain A LOT about Anakin and mandos. At least we did until they became irrelevant.
My main problem is that Rey can do EVERYTHING. Like, she's Han Solo AND Luke Skywalker combined.
Couldn't Finn have been the new Han Solo, and she's just the new Luke Skywalker? Because Finn's completely useless otherwise! Like, it's especially racist because he's now the loyal black servant who pines for his massa.
At least Luke's flying ability was explained by him getting ready to go to the academy. He starts as an ignorant, whiny rube who annoys everyone around him. Gets worked over by sand hobos and walrus men. He has an arc. She's just amazing at everything for no reason.
Who's we? I have literally never seen a random LOL LOOK AT THIS MARY SUE thread about either.
Like, I don't give a shit if you like wossername or not, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but whine about it fucking somewhere else.
This. Luke was show to be a great pilot and mechanic, just like his father. His aim with a blaster was never amazing and his skill with a Saber wasn't all that. But put him in a ship and that's where he got shit done.
Actually, Anakin spends nearly all of his young life around droids and other mechanical parts in Wattos hut.
Despite being a slave Watto treats him as an apprentice than exhaustable labour and directly allows him to tinker around with the space parts.
But even then, Anakin IS basically a living plot point, that's his role in the entire prequel series.
Using the term Sue when not talking about people's fanfictions self-inserts (you know, the context for which the term was invented?) is tripe. There is no magical limit to how competent a fictional character can or can't be.
Yet people will complain just as much about Anakin's flaws, and he was still a better explained character than Rey.
THAT SAID GIVE THE GIRL SOME MOVIES, ITS NOT LIKE LUKES OR ANAKINS ABILITIES WERE EXPLAINED BY EP FOUR COME ON
He's a little contrived (an renegade stormtrooper with a heart of gold? Please.) but he doesn't do anything particularly amazing singlehandedly. He even got his shit kicked in by a grunt during the middle of the movie.
>I have literally never seen a random LOL LOOK AT THIS MARY SUE thread about either
Probably because when Phantom Menace hit the theaters mm was yet to allow you to use her computer.
I mean, there was an unholy fuckton of people dissin' Anakin for what a shit of a character he is.
Yeah, but what's Finn's role? Maybe he's a great pil...Oh. Right, there's Poe.
Okay, maybe he's a good figh...Oh. That.
So he's just vaguely inspirational and good-hearted? That's...That's really great, guys.
Except that's not what she's doing. She's takign very specific pieces of those star cruisers, which have specific purposes, and getting a raw deal because the trader's a bastard. She has to know WHAT those pieces do, WHERE to get them, WHY they're important, and HOW to remove them without suffering death from any number fo reasons.
It's the difference between selling a car door for the metal content, and knowing how to find and remove a carburator to sell to someone who fixes cars. She's the latter, not the former.
Incidentally, it's really easy to fly anything in Star Wars universe, because Luke took to an X-wing instantly after flying a desert-hopper POS. The fact that she knows the insides of the crashed ships because she makes a living wandering through them is no different than Luke knowing how to fly an X-wing in a fucking dogfight in the chasms of the death star.
Yes, yes I would. My hatred for shitty writing transcends gender, race and political affiliation.
But she's not a genius. She's just competent at everything because of affirmative action.
Luke wasn't able to beat a trained jedi that was taller than him, but she was even though she had NO training.
You clearly hate Rey, but that doesn't stop you from arguing she's a sue.
Yes, the Anakin Skywalker who built his own goddamn droid, seduced a queen, was the chosen one because he was so powerful in the force, built his own podracer, and then piloted a ship he'd never set foot in to score THE decisive military strike in the battle for Naboo. All at age, again, nine.
Most partially educated people understand wookie. She lives near a fucking trade-town, she probably understands basic info in half a dozen languages, just like everyone else in Star Wars. R2 isn't the only droid Luke speaks to and understands.
You're retarded. So staggeringly retarded.
Finn actually has an arc. He's presented to us as being this kind of clumsy self centered coward who eventually overcomes all these failings as the movie goes on.
Nothing like Rey at all.
This is either bait or you haven't seen the movie OR you're so incredibly dim you failed to keep up with a space adventure movie for children.
Wookie is extremely hard to understand and Wookies, even in the established new Canon, are reclusive bunch.
You don't learn a language through passive contact.
Yep, Also the Hopper Luke flew around in was used for Training in the Academy, something that helped alot.
Not on a fucking litteralywhat desert planet in the ass end of the universe.
Maybe there's a chance she met one, but wookie is also a bitch and a half to learn to understand; not something you just pick up in a cantina.
>I honestly don't remember anything from the movie besides it being a nonstop ride of action setpieces with almost no characterization or explanation.
>Movie has to much action and no character development
>Therefore Mary Sue
Seriously, I was waiting for any sign of sue-ism after reading about it on the net, and the only cringy "girl power" moment was when
Finn tries to help her get up after the marketplace on Jakku has been blown up by TIEs, and she refuses because that's not allowed for a strong independant woman, I guess.Otherwise it was standart hero plot armor and jedi bullshit.
1. We complained back and forth about Anakin, specially E1 Anakin
2. Luke is not is not even comparable to Rey at all, and everything he does has been explained why he can do it in the first movie
Also, OP, you forgot: Amnesia and repressed memories, other sign of awful fanfic main character, and accomplishing everything flawlessly
>Yes, the Anakin Skywalker who built his own goddamn droid, seduced a queen, was the chosen one because he was so powerful in the force, built his own podracer, and then piloted a ship he'd never set foot in to score THE decisive military strike in the battle for Naboo. All at age, again, nine.
Yes, and we hate him and we don't want any characters like him anymore. Where's the hypocrisy in this again?
Not to mention the only mechanics we see her do in the movies is very simple stuff like fixing BB-8's antenna or literally ripping stuff out of where it's 'supposed' to be.
>Beaming: "I bypassed the compressor!"
>Han looks entirely bewildered by this definition of 'bypassed'
>Doesn't master her abilities in one attempt
>Obviously unskilled with a saber (she tried that same poke against Kylo Ren about three times)
>Only person actually fooled by Finn's lie
>Not the one making every plan and having everyone listen regardless of whether or not it's a stupid idea
That scene arguably saved the movie. Between that and Kylo Ren turning out LITERALLY to be in-universe a shitty Vader wannabe, the movie did decently enough to make me okay with seeing another.
T-16 has the same avionics and instruments as the T-60 X-wing, that's why he was so familiar with the ship.
He also trained to enter in the imperial academy, and flew through a narrow as fuck canyon shooting womp rats tons of time.
Both explained in the movies, now, where in TFA explains how she's better pilot than probably anyone in the galaxy in a ship she never flew before and that needs two pilots and better markswoman than most skilled players in CS without even using a blaster before in her life?
Lets not forget instantly reverse mindrape and mindcontrol 5 minutes after she heard about the Force for the first time.
If we're going to quibble about application of the term Mary Sue, then is there some alternate, more accurate term for a character that is designed to be pandering to a demographic by giving them an infallible paragon 'role-model' instead of a realistic character?
Maybe we should call blatantly patronising character's targeted at vocal demographics in order to gain PC cred Rey's?
She's not even that good at blasters or piloting, which are the two least justified things.
Mechanics is justified by her scrapping things for a living (and actually knowing what to scrap, as well as other technical knowledge).
Lightsaber fighting she does once, rather clumsily, using her old fighting style with her staff, against a heavily injured, emotionally damaged apprentice. And she doesn't even manage to kill him.
Blasters she does maybe once, and misses half of her shots with it.
Piloting she also does once in a dog fight, against 2 Tie Fighters, which are basically the crappiest ships ever. I'm also betting she used the force subconciously there, since there was no way she would have lined up that last shot otherwise.
So out of the 4 things she does 'perfectly', two are one-off things, one she doesn't do perfectly, and the other is heavily justified.
If you look at Finn, he's been on sanitation detail forever, and yet is great with a blaster, does about as well with a lightsaber, and seems to be a good ship-gunner as well.
If anything, he's more Mary Sue than Rey. The 1 Stormtrooper who had a change of heart? And just happened to escape as well? He even uses a lightsaber despite not being force-sensi
Does everyone forget KOTOR? The force can be used to assist a Jedi in understanding other languages. Why is this such a sticking point with people?
Hopefully it'll be made clearer in the next movie.
(That aside, she's still a Sue)
Actually, we see NOTHING in seeing if she WOULD get stomped.
We already saw her counter his somewhat unique force probe powers.
You know, that was used on Poe, an experience and very well trained rebellion soldier.
>Getting caught by Kylo Ren.
To then instantly master jedi powers and escape without anyone noticing her, srly, 0 reprecursions, in fact, thanks to that meaningless scene she now knows 2 jedi powers.
To be fair, TFA is basically just big budget fanfiction that isn't inline with what Lucas' original vision for a sequel trilogy was. (Even if his vision was probably even shittier.)
>She's not even that good at blasters or piloting, which are the two least justified things.
>misses a single shot throughout the entire movie despite never having fired a blaster before
>piloted a weighty as fuck light freighter through the narrow remains of a star destroyer's drive section, beating out a highly-trained starfighter pilot in a craft well-known for its excellent maneuverability without proir knowledge of how to fly anything larger than her hoverbike.
Wookies are basically an endangered species. Most of them were worked to death by the Empire (still Cannon) and those that weren't are few and far between. Han only understands wookie because he spent most of his life from the age of about 20 with Chewbacca. Are you telling me that Rey has spent most of her life with a Wookie, picking up the language? On a garbage dump planet, where wookies would have literally no purpose (no need for their brute strength, cheaper enforcers since what they need to do is much less than what a wookie can do, better employment offers literally anywhere else)
Running away from her Jedi 'destiny' is also 'choosing her own path as an independent woman'.
Getting caught by Kylo Ren is necessary to have her subvert the 'damsel in distress' trope without gender-flipping it.
Anyone who believes that the EU is retconned after that travesty of a movie should be dragged into the street and shot at by stormtroopers.
It wont kill them but it'll give them PTSD
What part of "shot in the gut by a bowcaster that sends stormtroopers flying through the air" is so hard to get? She drove him off, and "won" the fight because Chewie and Finn both got hits on him before she even stepped up to the plate.
Also, Ren is a complete mess. He just killed his Father, got shot in the gut, stabbed in the shoulder by a lightsaber, and had to hike after those two in the freezing cold while bleeding out. The fool is on the brink of a breakdown after what he just did (all so he can prove his dark is darker), and the reality is Ren is a wannabe. A true wannabe. He is not Vader, not even close.
I don't find it hard to believe she could stand up to him in this instance.
>that isn't inline with what Lucas' original vision for a sequel trilogy was. (Even if his vision was probably even shittier.)
The prequels showed us what RotJ suggested: fuck Lucas' vision. Fuck it to death with a chainsaw, burn the corpse, dissolve the ashes in acid, and toss that shit in the hazardous waste bin.
Seriously. I didn't actually believe this sentiment when it was posted at the start of this thread but after 50 or so posts of 'She's a woman character doing things, it can only be the result of PC pandering gone mad!' I'm starting to come around to your point of view.
Personally, Rey is bland. That's the bigger problem with her and one I hope they remedy in Episode 8.
>against 2 Tie Fighters, which are basically the crappiest ships ever.
Wrong. They were cheap, yes, but very capable craft, and far more maneuverable than a Light Freighter.
>f you look at Finn, he's been on sanitation detail forever, and yet is great with a blaster, does about as well with a lightsaber, and seems to be a good ship-gunner as well.
>soldier knows how to fire a weapon used by his order, is familiar with weapon systems used by his order
>must be a sue
>He even uses a lightsaber despite not being force-sensi
He used it like a club and got his shit rocked. You don't need to be force sensitive to use a lightsaber.
>Was literally walking out of the doom base because of her amazing magic powers and her sudden understanding of where all the access shafts are on A PLANET BASE THAT IS UNIQUE AND NOT BEEN DONE BEFORE>
Why do people think that in universe justifications are what's missing. Would it really be better if she turned to the camera and said "I'm Rey, a prodigy force user that self taught myself combat skills while barely scrapping a living as a scavenger but still had time to learn to fly a space ship, earn an engineering degree and learn to speak droid and Wookie". That doesn't stop her from being a ridiculous over the top character (AKA Mary Sue).
>Blasters she does maybe once, and misses half of her shots with it.
She misses one, and then proceeds to 360º noscope headshot 6 troopers with only one shot each, she actually fires a Kylo and never misses per se, Kylo blocks all shots with his lightsaber.
TIE fighter is the most fast and manuvereable fighter ever, and the SF TIEs are even better, Poe says so in the movie when he's shows how surprised is about the ship and that he wants one. TIE's flaws are lack of shields, life support and hyperdrive.
She built her own speeder which is, according to novelization and enciclopedia which are both canon, the fastest speeder in the planet and only her is able to pilot it due that, the speeder can even fucking fly, not only hover.
>misses a single shot throughout the entire movie despite never having fired a blaster before
Out of what? 3 shots? That's not exactly expert accuracy.
As for the piloting, she was clearly quite familar with that Star Destroyer, since she knew there was an opening on the other end at all.
After that, she never dogfights again. She beats 2 Tie fighters. With Finn's help on gunning.
Speaking of Finn, he's also never used a blaster turret at all before his escape with Poe, and yet he's shooting down things with no problem very quickly.
Worse, she's Han, Luke, and R2-D2 all in one. Plus the level of powers that Luke had to wait until after he trained with Yoda in Empire to have. She gets all that up front.
Luke was a whiny kid who was an ace pilot with force potential but no actual ability. ANH is filled with lines from Luke highlighting what an annoying kid he is. "What's that red light flashing?!" "Shut up, kid."
Han Solo was a good pilot and rogue, but was unprincipled and morally grey. His heel/face turn is the climax of ANH.
Leia was a princess who was handy with a blaster and at the end of the last movie we were told she had force potential (but it never is used in the plot).
Rey is morally upright, almost to a fault. She's not just Force-sensitive, she has the powers already learned and usable in the first movie despite having no training. She's a crack shot, excellent in melee combat, an excellent mechanic, and an ace pilot. The Falcon is fast but not terribly maneuverable, plus it's been derelict for years. Yet she outflies a First Order TIE fighter like she's Lando Calrissian.
Not at the level of ace-ness that we see her use in TFA. I'll grant you, almost anyone can fly a spaceship in SW, but usually at the Amidala-level where you're essentially driving.
This shit here >>44643720 isn't just unfair to critics of Star Wars. It's had a bad effect on movies in general and this one in particular. Not to mention the cause of equality. Casually flinging around accusations of bigotry isn't an argument, it's what you use when you don't have an argument. It's also made Rey a worse character than she could have been.
Highlights from last thread:
Finn is still a stormtrooper, he has received weapon training. He is about as good as the other stormtroopers with a blaster, landing about 60% of his shots. Ship guns in star wars are piss easy, wait till the computer says fire, then fire.
>>Does about as well with a light saber.
Gets his arse handed to him by a stormtrooper, who almost kills him.
Right. If it were handled how it was in the new movie, he'd get surprised by the sand people, old ben would see it and start hustling to save him, but oh wait Luke is also great at hand to hand combat lol
Hell, Finn is the perfect counterargument to every single fucking point of why Rey is magic.
>Finn is good with a blaster, this is explained, Blasters are Stormtrooper basic training anyway.
>Translated his good aim with the blaster to being a gunner well, but he is shown doing many many mistakes.
>He's somewhat good with the lightsaber, using it mostly as a beatstick but any time he comes in contact with a CQC expert like TRAITOR or Ren, he gets his shit pushed in.
>Actually a flawed character at the start who learns and develops.
Finn is shown to be good with a Blaster by everyones reports anyway, literally everything he does there is shown to gradually be developed with his Poe scene AND the Falcon scene.
Finn gets a pass because all First Order Stormtroopers get Anti-Jedi training and training in melee combat, even the random rank and file sanitation crewmen. He would've been taught how to deal with lightsaber combat and combat against force-sensitives in general. A shock tonfa (or whatever the fuck they use) wouldn't be that far off from a lightsaber.
What I don't get is why every single motherfucker in a Stormtrooper suit gets anti-jedi training, but doesn't get basic gunnery training or basic pilot training.
I'm actually not certain that TIE/lns lack hyperdrives anymore. Otherwise, why would Po and Finn steal one to escape? Finn obviously thought that he could get out of the system with one, he just needed a pilot.
>He just killed his Father
> The fool is on the brink of a breakdown after what he just did (all so he can prove his dark is darker)
Well, we're in reality where "Dark is darker" actually works. All the hate, pain and emotions should have only made him stronger, as they would infuse him with the power of the Dark Side.
Meanwhile emotionally confused, horrified and angry Rey getting help from the Light Side is just beyond me. She was really fucking open on her emotional state at the moment, and yet she Jedi'd her way outta anything like holy shit. That's the absolute opposite of what how Jedi work.
For the shitton of plot holes that are stuffed by "TheForceTheForceTheForce", the Force doesn't seen to mean anything beyond plot armor at all by this point.
I reckon being force sensitive justifies someone being good at everything. All they have to do is do what feels right.
Jedi train children with blindfolds on, an adult with prior experience can probably fake their way through everything.
Yeah, there is a thing I should sort of point out.
She flew through the Star destroyer wrecks like Lando did through the fucking Death Star 2 ducts.
So she's also a better pilot than LANDO.
You know, one of the VERY VERY GOOD pilots.
Are you retarded?
He used the Force and had Obi Wan guiding his hips.
Even someone untrained in the Force can do really simple things (like get a blaster shot to go into a hole). Its not that fucking hard to figure out
>If you look at Finn, he's been on sanitation detail forever
No he hasn't. He was on sanitation duty while stationed on Starkiller Base for an unknown period of time, nothing more, nothing less. Don't make shit up.
For >>44606488 →
It's more like
>girl rolls up with a force sensitive engineer and melee combat specialist
>Our only pilot gets separated from the party, I'm better at gunnery, girl gets some lucky rolls on our escape flight
>later she screws up and gets captured, DM introduces BBEG to her, also a force-user
>We end the session, DM okays her spending XP learning some basic force powers from observing BBEG and practicing on the Guards
>Our heavy weapons user gets a direct hit on the BBEG, leaves him half-dead
>Girl gets stunned by an attack, I hold him off for a couple rounds and get a hit in
>Girl manages to use her melee skill to improvise and finishes him off.
Except when she got captured ?
Oh god, that scene was ridiculous.
If they had done it on the spot with a reflex "close the door" move, it would have been nice, but the execution was terrible
>Monster dragging him for no good reason instead of eating him on the spot like the rest of the mercs
>"Eh, I'm gonna scream for help briefly every 30s, when she comes to intersections." Personally I would be shitting my pants and wouldn't shut my mouth until the door has closed
It's not like we had people speaking a lot of languages in the rest of star wars, anyways. Luke speaking at least binary, wookie and huttese in the movies, for example.
And the FFG rpg considers that players speaks all the languages they need to. Only very recluse races or forgotten civilizations need a translator.
>"girl power" moment was when Finn tries to help her get up after the marketplace on Jakku has been blown up by TIEs, and she refuses because that's not allowed for a strong independant woman
I literally cringed at this part. I wanted to punch whoever wrote that in.
>le "you only complain because she's a woman" excuse
Just so you know, people hate little Ani and his episode 1 bullshit too, so no, this has nothing to do with her being woman and everything with bad writing
>plus it's been derelict for years
Which doesn't actually make sense, the guy that had the ship clearly was in a position to repair the thing. Even if he hadn't repaired it, he should have. The guy was getting sophisticated tech salvaged for him by various people, that he was paying with food. Also that might be Rey's only flaw, complete inability to negotiate for better prices.
Not really, Poe says how fucking nible the Tie fighter is when he's in it.
Also, "Knowing" a Place has little bearing when it's a totally different perspective you're flying around in.
The First Order uses the TIE/fo, which is a vastly upgraded TIE/ln. The ship that Finn and Poe stole is apparently some kind of special forces variant that gets a turret. An in-built hyperdrive isn't an impossible inclusion in that light.
Sueism and cringy girl power are separate issues that have been conflated it to one by various groups with different objectives.
It's why any discussion about Rey or TFA turns into a shitfest very quickly.
>So she's also a better pilot than LANDO.
I think you mean "so she somewhere around as good as Lando". They performed similar feats and so have similar skills; there's nothing here to suggest that she's better.
She flew through less than one kilometer of Star Destroyer (simply by the fact that an IMP-II is a kilometer long, and she didn't fly the whole length, so she must have flown less than one kilometer), while Lando flew through several dozens of kilometers worth of Death Star ducts. So the fact that Lando lost the radar dish doesn't mean much because she didn't have as much time to mess up.
Having said that, though, I'm not sure if this necessarily marks her as crazy-good, seeing as a couple of X-wing pilots were able to fly the ducts along with Lando, as well as several TIE/ln pilots; and likewise the TIE/ln pilot in TFA flew through the Star Destroyer safely as well.
Yeah, but thats actually my point. Ren's actions are dark because an actual Sith got in his head. He even says as much. That he constantly feels a "pull bact to the light." The dude is a wreck. I think that's why his force powers seem so jittery. He is masquerading as being evil, but I think subconsciously he is fighting himself.
And that's why Rey comes out on to at the end of the fight. Instead of delving deep into her fear and pain, she takes a second to steel herself with the force, and finishes the fight strong.
>TotallyNotEmpire does a fucking air raid on your hometown - something that never happened to you before
>Luckily enough, you have a skilled soldier to get you through this - a member of the Motha Fucking REBELLION (which you really fucking admire)
>"Alright I know how to get outta this let's go"
>"NO NO GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME I'M STRONG I'M INDEPENDENT I DON'T NEED YOU"
If people don't like me seeing this as some sort of forced agenda shit - they should have no trouble with me seeing Rey as one dumb fucking bitch instead.
People like this guy? I remember people complaining about him a lot, even his ridiculous way of using a lightsaber and how fucking overpowered he was.
Also him being the creator of the rebellion is just cringe inducing as fuck.
Who gives a shit about them, it's Star Wars and the characters are naturally good at things and have talents that don't make sense.
I cannot believe people are actually taking realism in Star Wars this fucking seriously. I understand autistic nitpicking but Star Wars is just shoot-em-up wankery with "character development" mixed in for about 5 seconds. And it's fun to watch.
Stop taking it so seriously.
Why don't we try statting the characters in Savage Worlds or something to make us feel better?
I want him back promoted to captain, encased in a life support suit, his only drive to crush the rebellion and kill Finn.
He's the perfect foil both to Finn and the BBEG. He's utterly loyal, whereas Finn is willing to disobey orders he thinks are immoral. He also believes what he does is the right thing, and is determined to do it, whereas Kylo is just a whimpering bitch unsure of what he does.
He was a completely green newbie when they attacked the village. So it seems they have the stormtrooper trainee kids do menial labour as well as more military drills. Cheap labour, and can probably be used to teach them obedience and discipline and shit, like real life recruits scrubbing the barracks to near surgical standards.
No Starkiller was raised specifically to be a bad ass sith by Vader, and had a shit ton of resources put into his training. That he is an cringe worthy faggot is completely separate from that.
>I liked star killer
>literally the SINGLE WORST CHARACTER IN ALL OF STAR WARS
>Also am I the only one who thought the first game was much better than the second one?
They were both quit shit, but yeah - second one was substantially shittier.
Luke new Droid from working with them for most of his life. Same as Rey, that's okay.
Luke wasn't shown to know Wookie or Hutese until RotJ, well after receiving actual Jedi training and having been around the galaxy for a while.
Luke was also a force sensitive, he got hit by that training droid twice, got poor R2 almost killed and needed to be saved by Biggs, Wedge and Han. Guess being the son of the chosen one and having the force runing strong in his family means shit.
Typical traits of a Mary Sue:
1) Obscenely skilled at seemingly everything and/or manifesting hitherto unknown expertise at the speed of plot.
2) Completely lacking in character flaws with the possible exception of "excessive virtues" like being "too loyal" or "too honest"
3) Having everyone in the plot adore/loath them from the word go.
4) Is an author insert character (you can have author inserts that are not Mary Sues)
Rey has the first 3 and I think that's enough to use the term. But considering "Star Wars fan insert character" is basically her role in the movie I think she qualifies for #4 as well.
I thought I was the only person who thought that. The movie had lots of other good scenes. I even like Rey's character in theory. The acting is fine, but the writing was a mistake.
This. Anakin at least had character flaws, but you're right that he was a Gary Stu from day one and that's a big part of why people hate him.
Here's what I think happened with Rey and the writing. Kasdan is an excellent writer, so no problem there. But there's this toxic campus fascist twitter tumblr attitude that "if you don't like Rey then you're a SEXIST!!1!" Paired to that is a variation: "if you write a female character with any flaws, then you're supporting RAPE CULTURE and must be protested." Compelling characters have flaws and plot arcs.
Han and Lando start as jerks and then turn good. Luke is naive, inexperienced, and weak at first, then turns strong and competent. Leia starts as brusque and domineering, but eventually becomes sweet and compassionate. And all four have things they're good at and things they aren't; this defines them as characters and brings them together as a team.
Finn knows about the First Order and is great in a ground action. He quits the First Order but doesn't make the moral choice to fight them until later (he's growing as a character). Poe doesn't get much screen time, but basically he's a fighter ace, period. Both have room to grow as characters. Kylo Ren is magnificently flawed and not yet as powerful as he wants to be-- he's possibly even more compelling than Darth Vader.
But Rey can't be allowed to be not good at anything, and can't have character flaws, because tumblr. So instead she's bland and uninteresting, a character with nowhere to go. At best, they can retcon her back down and then train her back up in the next movie.
So these constant shooting from the hip attacks on people for being "sexist" (in addition to cheapening genuine sexism) also have lead to less compelling female leads. Nice going.
>2) Completely lacking in character flaws with the possible exception of "excessive virtues" like being "too loyal" or "too honest"
What about her being in love with a nigger? I'd say that's a good enough character flaw.
I predict heel turn.
Kylo ren is going to run into leiaah or however you spell her name.
And her statue like face is going to remind him of his mask and he'll pretend to be good and go all grima on rey.
Rey will fall to the dark side vader style.
and lukes going to actually turn kylo.
Fin will be torn up about it and try to shoot kylo, but lukes going to take the bullet for him. which will be the cause of rey going over the edge.
>"Ah. Could you show me how you got all these skills at level 1?"
If you take force sensitive at character creation you can learn a power that lets you use your use the force skill in place of your piloting skill.
>while Lando flew through several dozens of kilometers worth of Death Star
The only shot from far enough away shows them flying towards a completed piece of surface, so by the original official size he managed about 160km in there, while the updated number would have it a 900km trip in and out.
>Empire (still Cannon)
When was it explained that the Empire turned into a massive cannon? Was the entire Empire literally consumed to create the Starkiller base? And how can it still be a Cannon after the base was destroyed?
It's canon you fuck
Yeah, I didn't like Finn much because I'm racist, but it would have been nice if he was more than just the comic relief. If Rey is Han and Luke, that leaves Finn as Jar Jar Binks.
Admittedly it was kind of nice to see him fighting Kylo for a bit, even though Kylo had to have been shot in the gut by arguably the strongest handheld blaster seen so far in the series for that fight to even be possible.
Yes, she received very explicit advice on the Force from someone who was very strong in the Force even though she was no Jedi. If you don't recall it, then you have no business arguing in this thread at all.
A million credits says the next movie starts with Luke on his death bed, after spending years training Rey. tells Rey 'ur my unwanted daughter lol' and then die and becomes a force ghost.
That way he's not there to steal the spot light from our COOL NEW CHARACTERS (which is why he wasnt in TFA until the very end)
>>She isn't. Finn get friendzoned hard in the last scene.
Mate they better end up together or I am going to rage hard. And yes I am the guy you replied to. This is the only one of th shitty love stories in these movies I've ever cared about.
I was being deliberately small.
So, that's fine then, Lando flew 900 km and managed to knock off the radar dish. Rey flew less than 1 km and managed to knock off nothing, which means that she succeeded at basic piloting, since the usual goal when piloting something is to not hit anything.
So, again, I don't think we have enough to go on to label Rey as being a truly fantastic pilot.
You're joking, right? She outright states that she isn't a jedi but that she understands the force. And I'm not talking about Rey. Then she gives Rey advice on how to use the force.
You are literally ignoring the movie itself.
They were just friends that went through a lot together and therefore cared for each other. People that assume a hugs and caring about the other's well being is suddenly love have no idea what they're talking about.
...maybe he was highlighting the "very strong in the Force" part? We don't know that. You can understand the Force without being strong in it.
That would, however, seem to be needlessly pedantic on his part.
Rey doesn't have a single problem with her character that Anakin Skywalker didn't have. It isn't hypocrisy to say that the BOTH are fucking stupid characters. But, for some reason, twits are ten times more willing to go to bat for Rey than they are for Anakin.
Yeah, they have shields now, and some other upgrades to keep them serviceable against the T-70s. FO apparently doesn't have the resources of the Empire (sans the stupid fuckhuge deathstar mkXXII) so they focus somewhat more on quality rather than quantity.
Luke is also a basic pilot, he managed to flight straight and press red button on time.
Anakin is also a basic pilot, he managed to flight without getting killed.
Yeah, your definition pretty much works for absolutely anyone who doesn't screws it badly.
But you forgot something.
Death Star duct was intented to lure rebels into a trap, it was engineered to be big enough but not to big, it was in the design.
Imperial destroyer wreck with some holes on it wasn't designed to be piloted.
> She masters everything she tries after (at most) a momentary setback.
> The choreography in that fight was shit in general, its hard to tell if she was *supposed* to look like shit.
> Even if she is too trusting its a flaw that never has any actual downsides for her. She basically just trusts everyone that we as the audience knows she should trust.
Dude, this movie was entirely about making as few mistakes as possible and appealing to as many people as possible. Hence the rehashed plot, the nostalgia characters and so on.
As for the girl, pic related
>evaded multiple tiefighters
>flew a big ship inside a fucking star destroyer while professional pilots had more trouble doing it
>turned off propulsion to do a flip and put the locked down turret in the exact correct angle to hit a shot and then turned the propulsion back on
>But, for some reason, twits are ten times more willing to go to bat for Rey than they are for Anakin.
Because everyone who hates Anakin already raged hard, wrote kilometers of copypasta, fought in flamewars, went through a drunken depression, got out of it and learned to go on with their in the imperfect world that contains the abomination that is Anakin Skywalker.
You know, back when PREQUELS JUST HIT CINEMA AND WERE RELEVANT. BECAUSE IT'S SO WEIRD THAT PEOPLE DON'T GO AROUND BASHING THE MOVIE THAT CAME OUT 17 YEARS AGO AS MUCH AS THEY DO TO A RECENT BLOCKBUSTER.
Virtually everyone hated Anakin in his first appearance. It was even worse because expectations were so much higher for Ep. I
Rey's might not be as bad overall, but there are a hell of a lot of holes to patch. Pulling off complicated stuff like the Mind Trick without even knowing what the hell it is seems very poorly done and is something Anakin never tried pulling in the first movie.
>What I don't get is why every single motherfucker in a Stormtrooper suit gets anti-jedi training, but doesn't get basic gunnery training or basic pilot training.
We saw that in the movie. So they won't steal a TIE fighter and try to escape.
I'm fine w/ Rey knowing how to fly. I'm NOT fine with her being an ace pilot in addition to everything else she is.
Weaknesses don't make a character weak. They make her more relatable, tie her to her teammates (who rely on HER to fill in their gaps, too), and give her somewhere to go in her character arc. They make her stronger *as a character*.
Nathan Fillion talked about something like this a few years ago. He said he's always intent on stressing his characters' weaknesses. Viewers get drawn in by those, and it makes the character more interesting. Amateur actors (and writers) are often afraid to show weaknesses because they think they'll appear weak.
But you only have to turn your head slightly in the same movie to see Adam Driver's amazing performance as Kylo Ren: a character chock full o' weakness who is still a powerful and compelling villain. (And notice how Poe, with limitations but few weaknesses, is less interesting than Finn or Kylo, both deeply flawed.)
She out-flew agile fighters in a tramp freighter. A mostly broken tramp freighter.
As any military person will tell you, shit details are part of the job for infantrymen. It's not that he's "a janitor, not a soldier", it's that jobs like this are part of BEING a soldier. When I saw that, it drove home Finn's status as an ordinary grunt.
Meh, that was funny.
This made sense to me. The Falcon is so hot rodded that I'm not surprise that all attempts to fix it have broken it more.
>I'm omniscient and automatically know the opinions and motivations of literally everyone on the internet
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're either retarded, autistic, or both.
She's not a Mary Sue because we know dick about her, so in Episode 8 when Yoda's force ghost tells Luke she's Obi Wan reincarnated or something your going to feel like an enormous ass, so instead of admitting that the fucking obvious foreshadowing that something huge was up for her wasn't "Reeeeeee, Mary Sue" the whole time you'll insist it's a clumsy retcon to address your personal complaint instead of you just being an enormous fag.
The TL,DR their are space wizards in this franchise stop bitching about mah realism.
Dude, by any chance, did happen to watch prequels just recently? Because, you know, that would kinda explain how you find the lack of current discussion about a pretty old movie strange. It would also explain how you don't remember the amount of RRRAAAAGE that was dumped on little Ani when the movie was released - by the virtue of you being around his age at the time.
I don't get why people think Kylo being in shit condition is why he lost that fight.
After being shot, emotionally messed up, whatever, he -
Beat the heroes in a dead sprint out of the facility (after they had a head start).
Casually threw Rey into a tree with the Force, knocking her unconscious.
Toyed with Finn until he got tagged, then disarmed and mortally wounded him IMMEDIATELY.
And forced Rey to cede ground continuously up to the chasm - the sign that he was the stronger fighter.
Kylo Ren obviously didn't lose that fight from being injured.
He lost that fight for the same reason the person he just TKed into a tree suddenly had more skill at TK than him.
He lost it for the same reason the person he drove all across the arena with his swordplay suddenly overcame his skill with a lightsaber.
He lost it because the authors baldly demanded it, erecting only the thinnest potempkin village to hide their puppetry.
>t-they're space wizards
>originals don't show people going full hax right off the bat
>even original anakin had a learning curve and faults despite being literally the fucking chosen one
They better show she had trainning before and had her memory erased coupled with being of the Skywalker family or something. You don't get that the problem is she is hax in comparison to the franchise itself.
Fuck you, I'm currently playing in a high-XP total game and even I'd call what Rey does bullshit. You need a fucking reason to start dumping XP into Force powers, and if you don't have Discipline out the wazoo you're gonna get your shit stomped if you try and out-Force a Dark Jedi
So maybe you've missed my point so I'll clarify:
Provide me with the male version of Rey that people don't hate equally if not more than they hate Rey..
Bonus points: As above but provide evidence that people dismiss the characters failings based solely on them being male.
Anakin also spent the next ~20 odd years being utterly miserable and hateful about everything, most off all himself before dying due to damaged life support systems in his suit.
He may have lived the high life in the prequels, but his life afterwards was pretty shit.
Except there is a hugely obvious "but" going on here, it's fucking obvious they are going to have an explanation, and just because they didn't want to give it to you in the first chapter doesn't make it bad.
>Death Star duct was intented to lure rebels into a trap, it was engineered to be big enough but not to big, it was in the design.
This is...where, exactly?
>evaded multiple tiefighters
Lando had just come through an entire major battle against thousands of TIE fighters of multiple types.
>>flew a big ship inside a fucking star destroyer while professional pilots had more trouble doing it
The TIE/ln pilot did just fine when flying through the wrecked IMP-II.
>>turned off propulsion to do a flip and put the locked down turret in the exact correct angle to hit a shot and then turned the propulsion back on
Bitch I do that all the damn time in StarFox 64. Not to mention that at a certain point "it's a fantasy movie" is, in fact, a valid excuse.
Does she actually speak Wookiee at any point? I don't recall her doing that.
She also managed to find out mind control is a thing from having Ren try to find memories from her.
"Oh I guess you can enter my head to see my memories so I can control people's minds"
When he's unconscious in the infirmary, she says something along the lines of "goodbye, my friend". Maybe it's different in english, but in the language I've seen the movie in, it was pretty clear that there was no romantic undertones here.
From a foreigner standpoint, Finn was oozing "afro-american comic relief" by every pore, it was nearly unbearable, even if he's actually a cool character.
It's one of my main issues with the movie actually (with the blatant ep.IV ripoff and the totally manichean view of the Force), the dialogues are kinda meh and very contemporary, I don't think it will age very well compared to the original trilogy, which was pretty free of ethnocentrism on that regard and could be exported very easily as a result.
From a political standpoint, yes, because it's a very bad move.
Imagine if Obama was saved by a random dude from a foreign country and as a result they wrote his name in big letters on the star and stripes. That's the same level.
Not to mention that it could scare eveyone that didn't like the starkiller family from the rebellion.
>I used to fire at womp rats all the time back home, they are not much bigger than that fucking hole thing shit
>guess somehow my skill is unexplained despite me being a pilot
>and having been mildly trained in how to use the force
>1) Obscenely skilled at seemingly everything and/or manifesting hitherto unknown expertise at the speed of plot.
>2) Completely lacking in character flaws with the possible exception of "excessive virtues" like being "too loyal" or "too honest"
It stemmed from fanfic because you'd get writers who thought "compelling character" equals "good at everything". Simply upping the power level doesn't make a bland character interesting. A good ensemble has a diverse mix of personalities, skills, and talents. That's what makes each character distinctive and gives them a natural role in the plot.
Even in the case of Han and Leia, who in RPG terms could probably be different builds of the same character class, you'll notice that Han is in charge whenever they're doing sneaky roguish things and Leia is the group leader whenever they're in a place where her nobility kicks in.
>3) Having everyone in the plot adore/loath them from the word go.
Which is the point. You get a character who takes over everything: the plot and the relationships with other characters. To the detriment of everything, including their own character.
Another perfect example of this is Neo from The Matrix. A fantastic movie that was widely loved... except for the mary sue-ish lead character who everyone loved from the beginning and was literally the omni-competent messiah character. But remember that even HE started out weak/hesitant/cowardly. At least his character had an arc.
>4) Is an author insert character (you can have author inserts that are not Mary Sues)
And although the term Mary Sue came from fanfic, it doesn't have to be fanfic nor does it have to be an author insert to be a Mary Sue. The original term Mary Sue came from a female author writing about another female author's Star Trek fanfic-- it wasn't sexist. Gary Stu is the male equivalent.
>Adam Driver's amazing performance as Kylo Ren: a character chock full o' weakness who is still a powerful and compelling villain.
>Powerful and Compelling villain
Don't even pretend Ren is at all a threatening figure, let along a "powerful and compelling villain". The motherfucker literally throws (at least) three full-on tantrums during the course of a single movie.
Ben definitely has had more training in how to use his powers than Rey does. Y'know, before he did his little Anakin tribute.
And a lot of the bad guys in F&D aren't technically Dark Jedi either, but it's still a bad idea to try and go mind to mind with one if your entire experience with the Force is "I touched a lightsaber once"
I can't prove that I wouldn't, but if I didn't, I should. Maybe my problem is not that I hate female characters but that I don't hate male characters enough. I should hate everyone because everyone is 90% garbage.
That's a lie. Anakin Skywalker was a fan favorite and along with his incredible chemistry with Queen Amidala was what made the prequels such an artistic triumph.
Also, you can tell what shitlord sexists the posters are here because they call Rey a Mary Sue just like they said about Leia and Amidala.
His skill has an explantion, he already flew ships and had some training in the force, AND he had a squadron of professional pilots with him.
She literally never flew a ship and was able to evade and beat professional pilots, even without the force, and being alone against many, and with malfunctioning weapons.
Stop the shitty bait/crap argument. You are just a mong.
She's not a Mary Sue. She's a protagonist. You know who else is incredibly lucky/talented beyond belief?
Conan. Rambo. Anakin. Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai. That peasant boy in Knight's Tale (that without training turns out the great jouster in the world in a peasant diet.). Batman (you know, the guy who single handled beat all bandits, gangs and even other superheroes). Oh, and all anime protagonist ever. All of them. Every single one of them. Specially the male ones. Specially the young males. And the guy from Beserk. Oh, a Harry Potter, of course. And Shepard, from mass effect, regardless of how you play him. And Max Payne. Actually, every RPG game protagonist learns too fast, saves the world single handed or near so and has undeserved superpowers...
Anyway, I could go on but you see my point. Or you would see if you were not stupid, OP:
>When he's unconscious in the infirmary, she says something along the lines of "goodbye, my friend". Maybe it's different in english, but in the language I've seen the movie in, it was pretty clear that there was no romantic undertones here.
She still wants to get railed by his BBC. And this is fucking disney you remember, it always starts out like that shit in a Disney movie.
>so in Episode 8 when Yoda's force ghost tells Luke she's Obi Wan reincarnated or something
Actually, that would push any character further towards suedom if all it ever does is "justify" their powers. It's undeserved attention.
The defining trait of a sue is not competence or being liked, it's warping the entire story/world around them.
>Oh yeah so firing at rats is equal to killing skilled troopers.
Luke was a shit shot and barely made his way through firefights. Han, Chewbacca and fucking Leia were the real killers. Luke just flew fighters really well because the controls were exactly the same as a trainer craft he practiced daily in.
Rey is basically if Anakin from episode 1 fought with Darth Sideous and won.
Of course we would have criticized George Lucas for such bullshit.
firstly, everyone hated Anakin Skywalker.
Secondly, he's not really a gary stu because he is flawed. Especially in the second two films you're meant to dislike his whinyness and his emotional immaturity (unfortunately Lucas took that a little too far). It's just that his character arc kind of works in reverse. Whereas with Luke we got to watch him grow, with Anakin we got to watch him disintegrate. Anakin had to start off as something special in order for the writers to have something to take away. Maybe the second film will show Rei fuck up big time, in which case that will work better. But I doubt it.
And this is how they get away with it. The more cynical part of me thinks that the reason they cast a black guy and a woman in the lead was because it gives the movie a certain amount of immunity from criticism. You are never going to get the same level of hate you got over Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen directed against either a minority or a woman. Not under these circumstances, where it's a big deal that they're taking a franchise that used to be dominated by white men and 'diversifying' it.
>firing at rats is like killing skilled troopers
That phrase makes no sense, did you even watch the movie? Do you know what the quote I referenced (in my own words) was talking about in the movie?
They were discussing the death star destruction mission, Luke pipes up to say that it's not impossible, that back home he'd pilot and shoot targets of similar size.
Well done, dykedaughtyr. You showed them!
Shooting womprats and shooting Stormtroopers is the same thing!
Flying through a canyon on a planet is the same as dogfighting in space!
Heck, Rey doesn't even dogfight in space. Just in the atmosphere. Where she was used to flying on her custom speeder.
>established to have a shitload of practical experience in Special Forces stuff
>decades of training and being a devious fuck, even so he can't just go hand to hand with Supes and expect to live, motherfucker needs a plan
>Argue that people aren't hating Rey just because they're sexists
>Get accused that I'm just saying people hate Rey because they're sexist
>Heck, Rey doesn't even dogfight in space. Just in the atmosphere. Where she was used to flying on her custom speeder.
>riding a dirtbike is totally the same as driving a semi
I can't speak for anybody else, but Rambo was a SF vet with tons of emotional scarring and no friends. And First Blood was him having a really long PTSD flashback. But then again, I've never seen anything past First Blood.
Oh sure...So special training with special forces makes you able to take down a chopper with a bow. That's rich. Or you know, single handedly wipe out militia camps and such. And I should assume that batman trained with the same special forces.
Surely the power of Elite Military training can be exaggerated for cinematic effects, but let's ensure that Magic Space Wizards are held down to your realistic standards. The female ones at least.
Harry Potter fails all the time and needs his friends all the time, actually he is basically nothing without his friends.
Max Payne is a drug addict alcoholic mess that only exists to fire bullets in time-slow.
Shepard can't convince the council of the reaper threat, Shepard can't save everyone or anniihilate the Reapers, Shepard isn't a super pilot and doesn't really do things solo, in fact his entire crew does shit all the time, that said he is a shitty diplomancer.
Batman? Yeah depending on the writer. And that's why many people hate him, others love him because while he is super powerful, he is only a dude against super aliens and gods, so a power fantasy.
Kid anakin is universally hated. Adult anakin is a fucking sperglord ragemonster.
Action movie, and in the original while Ramboo is a fucking badass he is also an emotional wreck with PTSD and loads of crazy shit in his head.
were you born with terrible comprehension or do you practice it?
Shooting womprats is the same as hitting an exhaust port, not fuckin storm troopers. Luke is terrible with a blaster. He nails a couple troopers after ben dies, fair enough. dark side emotions, force sensitive, blah blah.
Flying through a desert canyon is like flying through a metal canyon in space! Oh lawdy, so different!. Luke had ace wingmen covering him and got bailed out when vader was about to smoke him.
Probaly bait yeah, but also probaly at least partialy true in the sense that "is a woman" does tend to be another ping on people's Mary Stu radar. Not to mention a lot of the people complaining about Rey on these threads phrase their complaints in terms of how Disney "can't let their strong female protagonist do wrong" particularly when comparing the stuff she does to the pratfalls Finn goes through.
So why it might not be -the- reason people complain it's definataly -a- reason.
What I'm saying is that Anakin and Rey are both stupid, boring characters for the same reasons, but people are unwilling to admit it because they're afraid they'll be called sexists.
>probably Luke's daughter.
>saber apparently acting like an holocron in the movie
That sounds like good enough reasons to purchase Force powers.
Plus she just has good Ag score. Probably 4. Two ranks in piloting, some more in mechanics or knowledge. That's nothing impossible. Spec'd blaster or cqc chars in EotE are able to do far worse shit that what we see in the movie.
Also, when does she outforce Ren? Genuine question, can't remember it.
>riding a back is the same as piloting a space ship
>shooting womp rats
Shooting the rats was about hitting the port in the Death Star you fuckface, it was a reference to the size of the target that would be hit by the fighter squadron, go watch the movie. Jesus christ, we get that you're trying to defend your waifu but get some fucking grasp..
I don't have a problem with Rey, but I have a problem with fuckwits like you blaming shit on sexism.
Need I remind you that the backlash that the actor who played young Anakin received was so strong it directly affected his life and made him afraid of cameras and bitter towards everything.
Anakin was fucking HATED. Far more than Rey.
If you know how to use explosives, know how to shoot a bow, and know what it takes to bring down a helicopter, you can combine those skills you already have to commence your virtuous mission.
Here's a real dude. Rambo ain't got shit.
You don't get it, friend.
These people had training. Whatever that training was that let them pull off what they did, there was plausible evidence for their feats based off prior experience implied or show.
Rey just has "its the Force lol". The only other character that pushed that excuse was Anakin as a kid, and people hated him for it.
>pushes her piloting skills to the limits
I will admit, it would have been good for them to bring this up in the movie or hint at it, but it's not like there's 0 explanation like everyone wants to claim.
She says she knows about the Force due to her long life and the history she's seen, not that she can use it herself.
But, sure, I'll humor you. Regale us with your tales of all the scenes where she used her force powers in the battle fought at her tavern.
Am I the only one who understood what you were saying? People bitched about Anakin back then just as much as Rey, if not more. But what Anakin didn't have on his side were an army of tumblrinas who insisted that we only hate that awesome character because we're sexists.
The hug was fine. I'm assuming Rey is skywalker's daughter but even if she isn't it makes perfect sense that Rey runs out to comfort the person who will be most wounded by the death of Han. And Leia was shown sensing his death so of course she'll need a hug of mourning.
My problem with Rey isn't that she's poorly performed, it's that she's too perfect and bland and there's nowhere to go with her. Except possibly a fall to he dark side, but I don't think that's good for the series as a whole.
The Rey we saw in this movie would have been perfect if it was the character she grew into in Episode 9. The problem is that we should never have STARTED here with her.
If we are talking on in universe rules?
Yes, the magic space wizards should be held down to the rules of their own fucking universe, not compared to Rambo or Ripley or Ronald Reagan.
And by the SW universe's rules she's more adept at shit than the Chosen One and the Chosen One 2.0
>Competent startship pilot
>Capable hand-to-hand fighter
>Good at thinking on her feet
>Cool and measured lightsaber technique
>Headstrong with sizeable willpower
She's Jaina Solo. The only difference is that Jaina earned her skills over dozens of books while Rey is inexplicably competent and picks up skills ludicrously fast. The film student in me says that it's a flaw in the medium, the author in me says that the screenwriters should have known better.
Rey's a desert survival. She learned mechanics, specially space ship mechanics, by virtue of understanding how their engines were structured, which parts do what in order to properly appraise them and knowing how to sell them. All Skywalkers are great pilots of vehicles they never boarded before, its a genetic trait. Anakin took a battle cruiser out when he was 9. Rey is not confirmed skywalker but suspected so. She is also a fuckstrong Jedi. And that's basically what Anakin was. A fuckstrong jedi. Disliking her piloting skills and turning a blind eye to his is selective nitpicking. And regarding her fighting injuried Kylo Ren with a lightsaber, the answer is in the movie philosophy. Tranquility and attunement to the force plays a stronger role in lightsaber duels than training. Kylo Ren is extremely unbalanced emotionally. He can't even focus on his anger because he also feels sadness and regret. Without pure emotion to fuel his Sith like ability, and wounded, he was beaten by a Mind-cleared Jedi virtuoso. Worse things have happened in fiction.
He tries to read her mind and she reads his mind instead.
Because of course the trained leader of the knights of Ren is a fucking retard that can be out-forced by a fucking untrained hick.
If you're desperate enough you'll do fucking insane things to keep yourself alive, including mow down an entire campful of Russians or try to drop an arrow through a chopper's windshield. Look up what Audie Murphy did in WWII sometime
When he tries to mindprobe her.
>Alright Rey, today we're gonna teach you how to do the jedi mind trick
>I already know how to do that
>Okay, how about telekinesis?
>I already know how to do that.
>Know that already.
>light saber techniques?
>Already beat a dark side force user
>Uhh, what am I supposed to teach you then
>Here, I'll teach you how to use the force, Luke.
The logical conclusion to what I saw in episode 7
>the top-heavy craft would be difficult for any other pilot to control
>rey's skills as a pilot match her genius as a mechanic
>rey's speeder is ridiculously overpowered
This is actually making it worse, just saying
>she is a skywalker
Possibly the only valid explanation.
Which would still make her as shitty as kid anakin, if Kid Anakin had used his force powers to mindfuck Darth Maul and then beat him after he killed Qui Gon, as opposed to Obi Wan.
Kid Anakin was universallly hated to the point where Jake Lloyd the kid actor is a fucking wreck, and he didn't do eitther of the things I mentioned. But we can't hate on poor Rey, think about the feelings of the poor women!
>From a foreigner standpoint, Finn was oozing "afro-american comic relief" by every pore, it was nearly unbearable, even if he's actually a cool character.
Yeah, I sort of agree with this, but part of the problem I think is he was paired with a character that could do no wrong, so he looked like this exaggerated version of Chris Tucker from Rush Hour in comparison.
If you remove Rey from the equation as a character and treat her as a mere plot device, Finn's story is actually very compelling. He escapes the First Order after being overcome by fear, and as he slowly bumbles his way through the movie he comes to feel that he needs to do the right thing instead of running and hiding. This all culminates in facing the icon of his fear: Kylo Ren.
Something good definitely could've been built out of that I think if he wasn't used so much for black comedy relief stereotype.
Holy shit, that's exactly what I was trying to say. How the hell have I never seen that before?
That's the thing. Rushing to the battlements to fight patriarchy in the movies is what's creating a generation of shitty female leads.
>getting beaten back by Kylo Ren
>not injured or harmed in any way though, that would be bad!
>"I can teach you the Force!"
>WAIT A MINUTE, THE FORCE EXISTS, THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING!
>proceeds to effortlessly smack the shit out of Kylo
>Scrapped stuff for a living
Being able to unbolt things is different from being able to repair things. Seriously, there's a massive, massive difference. Like my primary job is overseeing the maintenance and repair of a lot of pretty crazy equipment. You have two kinds of repairmen: troubleshooters and parts changer. Any idiot who can undo bolts and screws can be a parts changer. You actually have to understand what shit's doing to be a troubleshooter.. In car terms, it doesn't matter if you can swap out alternators when it's your carburetor that's not working and you don't know enough about what they do to tell the difference.
>character shows inexplicable capacity in fields seemingly outside their range of viable ability in a film
>implying this comes as a surprise to anyone
I don't know what you people were expecting, really.
It still had better character development than any of the other prequel films, but that isn't saying a lot.
Same rules say that "clear mind = attunement to the force = Better at Everything Jedi, including light saber fighting.". Same rules say that a Sith draw strength from strong emotions, specially anger. Kylo Ren was conflicted between different emotions and wounded. Nobody knows how well he was trained either, only that he was. She, when she won the fight, had had a epiphany and cleared her mind. In universe that's equivalent of having your hand guided by god. Anakin was a better duelist than obi wan, but lost to him due to conflicted emotions.
More time spent on this would have been advantageous. Showing her souping it up with parts she found. Having the scrapmonger try to buy it, or someone attempt to steal it and get it wrecked. There were opportunities to give some extra detail or backgrounds for Rey, but I feel like they got trimmed to make space for more force bullshit later.
You're going about this all wrong.
>can't afford to eat properly
>still manages to shave her legs
Obviously she's not a strong female character.
If she were, she would say fuck shaving, and gain a little more weight.
Not be a barbie who starves herself to buy shaving cream and razors.
>She has all these skills without explanation! Mary Sue!
>Here's some explanation to her having these skills
>These skills are too good despite being explained! Mary Sue!
What? Do you want this promotional material to be all coy about it? She's the protagonist of a movie. They're not gonna downplay her skills, they're going to hype them so people want to watch it.
But it almost didn't. All the other pilots died before it was down to Luke, and he still would have died if someone hadn't covered his ass. The only way that comes into play is "I'm a good shot". He doesn't spend the battle destroying gobs of TIEs, shaming Vader and easily dropping the final hit solo. It was a near-miss ass-clenching roller coaster. Hell, he celebrated getting two TIE kills in the movie less than 40 minutes earlier becaus the tension is real. 2 kills. 2.
>All the autists in the thread get assblasted over girl power.
Grow up, dipshits. Women need their characters strong and capable or they start to bleed from their vaginas in panic trying to figure out what's going on. They are simple creatures that need their shit nice and simple.
And yet somehow you forget to mention when she beat his mind probing.
And when she mind tricked out of nowhere.
And when she piloted and beat professional pilots without even the excuse of having done piloting before, remembering everyone shit on kid-anakin for being a master pilot when the best he had done was pod-racing. Which is already a push.
And also forgetting that lil' bit when she beats Kylo's TK, even if injured and what the fuck ever she hadn't even cleared her mind yet.
Honestly, the first 30~ minutes of the movie where Rey was actually human and the things were limited and nice was great, while the rest of the movie was absolute shit, especially everything with starkiller base.
Honestly, it's like the first 30 minutes wasn't even directed by JJ Abrams. I bet he was having a fucking aneurysm at the lack of len flares, explosions and dutch angles.
The first 20-30 minutes felt star wars, the rest of the movie was mass produced schlock.
The only problem I had was her beating Ben and mastering the Force so quickly. Everything else was okay, I guess.
>because we know dick about her
I assume it's because stormtroopers are trained in melee.
TR-8R clearly was armed and trained for melee. He even throws away his ranged weapons when he sees someone with a lightsaber. Which given how most people with lightsabers handle blaster bolts, makes perfect fucking sense.
Finn fought a trooper with similar training and ability, and it was roughly even, but in the end lost because he was fighting with an unfamiliar weapon while TR-8R was using a standard stormtrooper weapon.
This. He has the same genuineness and naivete. And more than a little awkward.
I just feel like there was a deleted scene that shows Rey actually be good at piloting.
She pulls apart starships to survive on selling the parts, so being a good mechanic is a given. Being good at melee combat is a given too when we see her fight off the thugs that were there to take BB-8.
We just didn't see her fly anything interestingly until she got aboard the Falcon.
It's very, very different. Pilots need long years of training even the basic shit because it's nothing like you'd imagine despite movies telling you otherwise, and that's just to become a /standard/ grade pilot. At least Luke used to cruise around in a flying machine equipped with forward weapons enough to become a less-than-average pilot with good aim because that's literally all he did... Practice shooting three pointers.
You do realize that the saying "going to bat" for someone means "defending them", right? I'm saying that Anakin and Rey both suck, and that people are more willing to shield Rey than Anakin for... well, sexist reasons, namely the idea that any critique of a female character is automatically motivated by vile, malevolent hatred for all women everywhere.
There were other missed opportunities for that stuff. The mind probe scenes were incredibly dull, there probably should have been some sort of effects going on showing the battle of wills going on or thoughts and memories being filtered through. That and Poe needed to get less of his business cut, guy has virtually nothing going for him past being a pilot.
I saw that scene more as the failing of Ren that the strength of Rey.
Being a huge emotional faggot probably doesn't help hiding your inner thoughts, especially when you've already created with your target.
We've seen taht the man is so instable that his troopers are used to hide during his fits of rage. Everything I remember about the EU has calm and concentration playing an important part in resisting mind-reading.
>knights of Ren
For all that we know about them, they all could be a bunch of very bad padawans that rebelled against luke because they weren't his favorites. I didn't see him do much cool stuff apart from his stasis trick.
Seriously, think about how much xp he must have sunk in this power to make it stop blaster bolts. It's a wonder he has anything to put into skills.
Follow the chain back. The image calls her out as being a good pilot.
Why is she a good pilot? Because she built some weird flying landspeeder thing and uses it in her free time.
Seriously, it's like people are willfully trying to ignore any possible explanation just so they can keep calling her a Mary Sue.
Conan starts off as a slave and has to go through years of hard labour to build up his physique, then years of gladiatorial training to build up his fighting skills. Rambo spent years in the special forces developing his skills, and is presented to us as a mentally damaged vietnam vet. Anakin is emotionally immature and unstable (and everyone hated him anyway). Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai is a washed up soldier emotionally scarred by years of slaughtering innocent Native Americans, gets his ass handed to him in his first battle in japan and has to undergo months of training to recover and learn the way of the samurai. The peasant boy in a knight's tale spent years as the training partner of a knight, and ends the film so bloodied and beaten he can barely sit on his horse. Batman has billions of dollars to spend on gadgets and he still spent years training with the league of shadows to get his skills. Harry Potter develops over the course of seven books, and spends most of that time being made to look like an idiot compared to Hermione.
Anyway, I could go on but you see my point. Or you would see if you were not stupid
Rey, meanwhile, has her mechanical skills from years of salvaging, which is fine - I can accept her being able to jury-rig the falcon. But she also can fly the millennium falcon like a badass, which isn't justified. She has the kind of force powers that Luke didn't get until the third film, despite the fact that she didn't even know the force existed. She can sneak through the First Order base by herself, and beat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel despite the fact that he's an experienced Sith lord and she's never used a lightsaber before. Apart from the mechanical skills, she never earns any of it.
>I'm a scavenger like everybody else just younger but I build stuff that surpasses everything in this planet
>This somehow makes me be top tier pilot with stuff I've never seen before
No, that just makes it worse
Hmm. This is a good point. I think the problem comes where it's not spelled out as clearly as in the Original Trilogy. He actually says he's got some manner of experience, and particularly on small stationary targets. Rey doesn't really talk to anyone in the first bit of the movie, nor display any particular talent on-screen.
>Rey's a desert survival. She learned mechanics, specially space ship mechanics, by virtue of understanding how their engines were structured, which parts do what in order to properly appraise them and knowing how to sell them.I don't think this would make her an expert mechanic, but whatever.
> All Skywalkers are great pilots of vehicles they never boarded before, its a genetic trait.
I really hope they don't reveal her to be a Skywalker. Excusing expert piloting skill as simply being genetic is fucking terrible and lazy writing.
>She is also a fuckstrong Jedi. And that's basically what Anakin was. A fuckstrong jedi.
She had no idea the Force was anything more than a myth until a few hours prior, and suddenly she's pulling off high-level techniques simply from having had them used on her only a single time before.
>Disliking her piloting skills and turning a blind eye to his is selective nitpicking.
I've not read a convincing argument that Rey can become an expert pilot based off flying an airbike around. As has been posted in the thread already, the odds taken as they are were so stacked against her there is no way a character with a similar background should have survived even her first encounter with the First Order.
>And regarding her fighting injuried Kylo Ren with a lightsaber, the answer is in the movie philosophy. Tranquility and attunement to the force plays a stronger role in lightsaber duels than training. Kylo Ren is extremely unbalanced emotionally. He can't even focus on his anger because he also feels sadness and regret. Without pure emotion to fuel his Sith like ability, and wounded, he was beaten by a Mind-cleared Jedi virtuoso.
>those are all dark side emotions he was feeling. The light side is the one all about tranquility and shit, which Rey most definitely did not have until she suddenly closed her eyes and gained perfect lightsaber fighting ability.
>Worse things have happened in fiction.
That's not an excuse.
>Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel despite the fact that he's an experienced Sith lord
He's not. Snoke explicitly says that he needs to finish his training after he gets his ass kicked and he's not a Sith, he's a "Knight of Ren" or some shit. He tries really, REALLY hard to be a big bad sith like his grand pappy, but fails miserably at it.
Look, if I make a movie about a ten year old that can beat 100 US marines without explanation and then release a not-very-widely-known promotional pic thing that says he is actually the god of war incarnated, that will still mean there is NO explanation.
Because? It's not in the fucking movie.
>but she used a speeder!
Which is not the same as 3d movement, flight. Do you know why they don't just let people with driver's licenses pilot biplanes?
Fuck there is one dead pilot in my family from a - minor - fuck up, piloting isn't riding a bike.
IMO the funny scenes with Finn (and Han, let's not forget) weren't all that annoying. All the main characters in the original trilogy (and yes the prequels) had funny moments.
Really I think the only reason people notice this is because of how not-funny Rey is. They're not just afraid to write a strong female lead with flaws, they're afraid to say anything funny about her.
As a time traveler who just got back from 2036, I can confirm that people are no longer so torqued about Rey. People are just venting because A) it's true, and B) the movie just came out and it's fresh in their minds.
BTW, the 40k movie comes out in 2034 and is actually pretty damn good. Once GW got bought out things really got better with the whole setting.
If "decent literature" means the "classics" that people rant and rave about to you, then your life must be really fucking boring because that's all those "classics" were, boring.
>From the desert planet, like the Skywalkers! >But totally not Tatooine!
>A genius pilot!
>Explained by being a genius mechanic!
>That flies the one and only Millenium Falcon!
>And *I* can actually fix It!
>So good, Han Solo wants to hire me!
>Chewbacca adores me and wants me to fly the Falcon!
>I get to use unique blaster!
>I get to use Skywalker's lighsaber!
>The blue one, that got lost in EpV's end fight!
>Mysterious, tragic past!
>Reversing the mind-tricks!
>Using the mind-tricks!
>The lighsaber flies to MY hand!
>I was scared of It at first but I forgot about that later!
>I beat the big bad, because I felt the force!
>EVERYONE likes me
It's like watching a little kid gloating about beating Baldur's Gate with cheat commands.
please rey defenders, tell me in what possible way that character can develop?
She's already flawless and can do whatever she wants with no effort, what's her character arc?
How does she improve as a person?
Seriously, I'm a helicopter pilot, and if I tried to jump in one with no experience besides pulling wrecked ones apart to sell for scrap, I'd have wrecked the thing in seconds.
And trying to justify using a hovering motorcycle that's "so topheavy" yet balances perfectly by itself even when loaded down with scrap on one side as enough to fly is beyond retarded.
Yes? Is that not enough?
The complaint was that she had no former pilot experience. Then it gets brought up that she actually does. Possibly as much as Luke, at least in the flying portion.
Add the Force onto that, and she'd do fine. I don't see how there's a problem anymore.
Do you want to move on to something without an actual explanation? Like her using a Blaster?
Why was there even a guard in the room with Rey anyways? If she was strapped down that securely, why would they need someone physically in the room with her, and not just keep an eye on her with cameras?
still far more experience than Rey, is what I'm driving at. I know he's not at full-Sithness yet. I also know he was injured (which I'm sure someone will bring up), but still, he manages to carve through everyone else he comes up against without breaking a sweat. Po doesn't even phase him. He's injured when he goes up against Finn and he still wins. Yet Rey comes along and of course she beats his ass. The bow-caster injury is just a fig-leaf for some really shoddy writing.
>because that's all those "classics" were, boring.
i can see why you like fan fiction so much
Guts? Hell yeah he is extremely wrong. Guts is as far away from a Gary Stu as you can get. He is good at fighting. He is extremely strong.
He is also completely emotionally fucked up, has been betrayed by his best friend, watched the people he cared about get murdered brutally in front of his eyes, is pursued relentlessly by his former friend and daemons, uses armour that takes a bit of what makes him Guts everytime he uses it...
So yeah. He was extremely off the mark with Guts.
You're telling me using a simulator and using her own custom super special XXX bike that's the most advanced and special piece of technology is enough to make her as good as a pilot as fucking Lando? Because the maneuvers she did were Lando level.
Try telling a fucking pilot that playing microsoft flight simulator is enough to pull off 3g corkscrews in the air
THE SPEEDER CAN FLY! It's a customized model. It does barrel-rolls.
I'll admit freely that this should have been in the movie, but it's still canon, and it answers the questions of why shy knows how to pilot.
>The complaint was that she had no former pilot experience. Then it gets brought up that she actually does. Possibly as much as Luke, at least in the flying portion.
The crux of the problem is that it isn't established in the movie, which should a cardinal god damn sin of movie storytelling, but in promotional material. Compare it to EP IV, where everything great the characters do is previously established through a single line of dialogue or shown through smaller things they do. I liked Rey and I find the lack of establishing her character and skills incredibly fucking annoying because it's just bad storytelling mistakes that are so basic you shouldn't be doing them.
>movie shows her as a scavenger
>not shown piloting anything
>not a pilot actually, like, at all
>doesn't show her mechanical skills
>inb4 riding a bike is piloting
meanwhile the widely hated anakid:
>shown to know how to build droids and has built his own podracer
>shown to ride the podracer
>is actually the chosen one
And he is - still - a shitty asspull based character, despite having more grounds for his skills than Rey.
>BUT MUH WAIFUUU
>2 Tie fighters. 2
Two trained, professional warfighting pilots each in a vastly upgraded version of one of the slickest starfighters in the galaxy. Two of them!
>And she had former flight experience.
>And the force
Which meant fuck all for Luke, I guess. Would have helped R2 out, I'm sure.
>part of the problem I think is he was paired with a character that could do no wrong,
This. The two main characters are really poorly balanced. Finn just comes off as Rey's bumbling sidekick. It's a shame, really, he could have been an interesting character.
Funny you use pic related. You're probably a literature major that has the classics shoved down your throat and not allowed to form your own opinion about them.
Engineer >>>>>>>>> literature major.
>Possibly as much as Luke, at least in the flying portion.
>no beggar's canyon
>no wamp rats
>buy our new extended universe novels to find out how she figured out how to pilot this non-standard, highly custom two-person freighter by using flight sims for fighter craft!
Anyway that part wasn't too horrible, even if just more meaningless action shit. It's after they meet Solo and start messing with the force that things go south hard.
I don't even think she's as skilled as Lando was, and I don't even think Lando was ever set up to be an awesome pilot.
Either way, he flew through the final death star battle. Rey managed to not get shot down by 2 Tie fighters and flew through 1 kilometer of narrow passages.
The flight simulator, combined with practical experience on her bike and having the force, means that she was barely able to out-fly a pair of Tie fighters and take them down. That's it. She never does any other dogfighting.
Pulling parts of something is not the same thing as repairing something.
I can teach any monkey how to get valueable parts off of a car in an afternoon. It'd take years to teach them all I know about diagnosing and correcting problems -- and we're even talking about simple ass 1960s-basically-no-electronics stuff.
Kylo Ren and his band of misfits killed a whole goddamn academy of Jedis. If not multiple of those. He fucked them up so hard, Luke went into hiding. Him getting beat like that Is a terrible writing since It implies that either
>Kylo is shit, his band is equally shit or worse and the new Jedi (the whole lot of them) trained by Luke fucking Skywalker are even worse
>Kylo is pretty good and experienced and got fucked by what should be an exhausted scavenger using her sword like a stick
Explaining It with the "THE FORCE" is shameleslly admitting that this shit is a fucking asspull
That's a very valid point, but also many of his jokes felt out of place/tempo for me. It was the exact wording of expressions more that the jokes themselves. It may be a cultural thing or a matter of personal taste, though.
I have to admit, Han and Chewie finding them at that exact moment was a big Deus Ex Machina.
1)so she could escape, ensuring that the base was on lockdown and no fighter would take off initially to intercept the X-wings.
2)it's star wars, most tech level is ww2.
>Don't even pretend Ren is at all a threatening figure, let along a "powerful and compelling villain". The motherfucker literally throws (at least) three full-on tantrums during the course of a single movie.
So? I think you're making my point for me. Kylo Ren is absolutely compelling-- not because his plot power level is so high, but because he is so clearly to everyone INCLUDING HIMSELF that he's just a bitchy little kid trying desperately to be just like Darth Vader. On one hand, we the viewers know that Anakin really was a whiny brat as well, but on the other, it's clear that Kylo completely misunderstands who Darth Vader was and why he was the way he was.
IMO that's fucking awesome.
And the tantrums illustrate that. Vader's two biggest outbursts of emotion in the original trilogy were totally blank. The first in Empire when the Falcon escapes at the end. Vader just stares out the window then stalks away, while everyone watching is waiting for the outburst and for someone on that Star Destroyer to get choked.
Then the next is in the middle of RotJ. Luke's turned himself in, and begs his father to turn back to good. Instead, Vader sends him to meet the Emperor, and Luke responds, "Then my father is truly dead." Everyone leaves, and Vader stands motionless looking out into the forest.
Meanwhile, when things don't go Kylo's way, he doesn't kill any senior officers. Probably because he doesn't have the authority to do it (his relationship with general hax is more like vader's with Grand Moff Tarkin). So he takes it out on random equipment. These tantrums illustrate his character but also how volatile and out of control he is. He's not scary as a looming inexorable menace like Darth Vader. He's scary like a crazy person about to lose it.
So when I say powerful and compelling, I'm talking not about his power level in-universe. Who cares about that? I'm talking about how powerful and compelling his PERFORMANCE as a villain is.
If Poe had stuck around he could've always flown the ship and then this problem disappears.
He also wouldn't've abandoned his mission (as far as he knew) and left Jakku with the map to Skywalker still unaccounted for.
The being a good mechanic thing was actually the only part of her character that was fleshed out properly. It's completely reasonable that if she's spent her life poking around starships, it's not implausible for her to know what the parts do and how they work.
Even when she started flying the Falcon, she wasn't particularly good and was skidding all over the place. So the pilot and engineer aspect, fine, but her OP force sensibility, lack of flaws or vulnerabilities, and almost everything else about her, was pretty shit, especially compared to Finn, who was more entertaining to watch BECAUSE of his flaws, and her original trilogy counterpart, Luke, who started out as a desert hillbilly kid and gradually learned to be a good jedi over the course of 3 films.
>B-but she just pulled part outs! N-not repairing!
She built her speeder herself.
That aside, if you see someone scrapping things in the first act, and its implied they did it their whole life, why, when you see them repairing stuff later, is your first thought 'they didn't explain this at all', rather than, 'well, I guess she must have been more intelligent about her scrapping'
>and that people are more willing to shield Rey than Anakin for... well, sexist reasons
Stop projecting your worldview onto others.
People hate Anakin in the prequels because he's:
>A Jesus-baby conceived by fucking midiclorians
>An annoying kid
>Kind of a sociopath for being in and having fun in a podrace where at least half of his competitors crash and die
>Talks about angels of all things
>Blows up a battleship in a (stolen) Fighter basically on his own when there's no reason he should be able to even reach all the fucking controls
>Gets trained to be a jedi even though Qui-gon said specifically not to train him (and because he's already too old) because that makes sense
>Emotionally immature and way too attached to someone he knew for all of a few hours more than ten years ago
>Doesn't listen to Obi-Wan at all
>Listens to Palpatine more than Obi
>That cheesy-ass romance
>Genocides a tribe of sand people in anger, proving he is the worst jedi
>Still somehow becomes a proper jedi knight between 2 and 3 when he should've been thrown out of the order
>Still immature but now a jedi knight that breaks every single rule the order has, because reasons.
>Kills Dooku in anger even when he's unarmed and has been overpowered by Anakin (who is not there to simply get shit on by Dooku) and Obi
>Obi does nothing about Anakin's anger issues, flies off to chase Grievous
>Obi-wan also does nothing to KEEP ANAKIN AWAY FROM SHEEV BECAUSE HE WAS FLAT OUT TOLD THAT SHEEV IS A SITH LORD IN THE LAST MOVIE HOLY FUCK ARE YOU RETARDED
>Anakin is a hypocrite that insists Mace not kill unarmed Sheev, kills mace to prove you can have it both ways
>The rest of the film
>she built her speeder herself
Nice of you to say that, how are those extra materials going for you? How about including it in the movie?
>scraping is understanding
I could take computers apart when I was a kid and know what pieces where what. Did that make me a computer engineer?
Try "definitely". The man is an ace at everything he tries the first time he tries it. He is excused in this because of his "mighty barbarian thews" and little else. I think the worst example of that was in "The Man-Eats of Zamboula" (or something like that) where he is able to out-strangle a professional strangler because the professional strangler has only stangled weak-blooded southerners whereas Conan grew up in Cimmria and so has mighty barbarian thews in his neck and so is not so easily strangled.
I am being completely serious about this. Conan out-strangled a professional strangler. This was written.
And I love Conan. But the guy is the Maryest Mary Sue this side of Ebony Darkness Dementia Way.
About the only thing I actually buy him as being really, really good at is climbing; it's mentioned several times that Cimmeria is a very hilly, forested country, so I can see a Cimmerian kid getting really good at climbing, and thereby Conan's climbing ability several times allowing him to reach or escape situations.
>I don't even think Lando was ever set up to be an awesome pilot.
Look with your eyes. I know that since you like complete schlock like TFA that you can't understand things unless put in ridiculous exposition scenes that shitty directors like Abrams love to do, but things like Lando's piloting skill are very clearly implied through visuals and character reactions.
>The flight simulator, combined with practical experience on her bike and having the force, means that she was barely able to out-fly a pair of Tie fighters and take them down. That's it. She never does any other dogfighting.
Her first PRACTICAL experience with piloting a goddamn freighter with a weird center of gravity went effectively perfectly.
After said scene, she tells Han how to fix his own ship and he offers her a job because she's so special and every likes her.
How can you defend this character without your tongue being firmly planted in your cheek?
>Conan. Rambo. Anakin. Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai
I'm guessing you haven't actually seen any of these movies?
Because Conan was very flawed in his education and judgment. Anakin IS a Gary Stu, and everyone did and still does hate him for it. And nobody likes Tom Cruise in anything, let alone that piece of crap movie.
That leaves Rambo, and rather than explain why you're wrong that Rambo has no limitations or character flaws, I invite you to go back and actually watch the first Rambo movie.
Harry is hardly a mary sue. You're comparing him at the end of his character progression with Rey at the beginning of hers. She has nowhere to go.
With batman you have a point... except that both the Michael Keaton and the Christian Bale batman series spend a LOT of time dwelling on his psychological problems and character flaws. Go look up interviews with the directors; they all make the same point; Batman as written is a mary sue, so they need to create or explore his flaws to make him an interesting character.
>IMO that's fucking awesome.
How is that awesome? By the virtue of pottery? We have a fucking shitstain for an antagonist that we're supposed to save galaxy from. No better way to make the Epic Stand Between Light and Darkness anticlimactic. Our conflict is resolved from the start via discrediting the opposing side. There is no great threat, no adventure to stop the looming darkness, no sympathetic heroes proving themselves and their beliefs in a standoff against their foils - only a wimp throwing tantrums.
I just don't understand that. People see rather misguided attempts at use of literary devices and they immediately lose their shit, despite said devices having no point to deliver and serving no purpose. It's literally
>"Oh it's like poetry. It rhymes."
>Conan out-strangled a professional strangler. This was written
I think he's a compelling villain.
Kylo Ren tries so hard to be Darth Vader its almost comical. But it makes sense somehow. Often with villains we just see them in the state they've become. Think back to the Original trilogy before the prequels came out. Darth Vader was this dark sith knight who already had fully fallen. Palatine was already the master of the galaxy and the dark side. The original arc is the redemption of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.
Now enter Kylo Ren. He's still developing as a villain. He idolizes
his grandfatherand wants to become him. But even as a villain he's flawed. He hasn't yet fallen all the way (even though he desperately wants to and acts as he does). But he's not Darth Vader. His arc in this movie is about him trying to live up to a legacy that he can't quite fully live up to. Whenever he's confronted with his failures he has a tantrum.
Yet, did you notice that he never actually kills any of his subordinates like Vader always did? No. It's because Ren is developing as a villain as much as Finn is developing as a hero.
I like Ren as a character because he's basically us. Who, upon watching the original trilogy, didn't like to pretend to be darth vader when playing around.
>The being a good mechanic thing was actually the only part of her character that was fleshed out properly.
No, no it is not.
>It's completely reasonable that if she's spent her life poking around starships,
Here, let's go grab some random people in Somalia, give them a few dozen broken down B2 bombers, then after a generation or so, see how well they build airplanes.
>it's not implausible for her to know what the parts do and how they work.
Yes, yes it is. Fucking go take apart a few dozen nonworking, different televisions (CRT, LED, and Plasmas), then write me up a description of how how to fix one that isn't displaying correctly.
You don't learn shit about repairing things just dicking with broken, non-running stuff. You especially don't learn anything about highly complex systems (I'd love to see someone able to figure out how to adjust a timing belt on an internal combustion engine without any training/resources).
You know, that's a great point. I *HATE* Sigourney Weaver as an actress and celebrity. But the writing and performance of her character in the Alien franchise was fantastic. She had depth and progression.
Michelle Rodriguez's character in Dances With Smurfs. Shitty movie, but her character again was interesting and cool. She could be strong without being boring or flawless.
Buffy Summers in BtVS. Willow in BtVS. Anya in BtVS. Buffy's fucking MOM, who in the third season lets Angel have it and makes her fucking point.
Scully in the X-files.
The funny thing is, most of these examples were from an age supposedly rife with exploitation by the patriarchy. It's in the age of campus fascism that we can't get a compelling female character.
What is this?
>Her first experience piloting something different went perfectly
Chalk it up to the Force.
>she tells Han how to fix his own ship
The one she knew was a pile of garbage and might have even worked on beforehand? She's a better mechanic than a pilot, and Hans been missing his ship for years.
>How can you defend this character?
Because so far all of the complaints about her seem to be from people who can't make logical deductions.
>and that his stories were deliberately written as pulp fantasy.
That is exactly what Star Wars is, you realize, right? The only reason it exists at all is because Lucas wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie but couldn't get the rights. But Star Wars is pulp schlock fantasy and revels in it.
>Conan starts off as a slave and has to go through years of hard labour to build up his physique,
Not Howard, doesn't count. In fact it directly contradicts Howard himself in at least two stories where Conan mentioned that he fought his first battle when he was about 14, the Cimmerian sacking of the Aquilonian colony of Venetrium.
>not portrayed as being the most intelligent though
Actually he's regularly shown to be a genius, just lacking in formal education. There are numerous points in his life, particularly once he becomes King of Aquilonia, where he is able to out-think his opponents as well as out-fight them.
If nothing else, being able to speak multiple languages is often used in fiction to show off genius; Conan could speak intelligently in dozens. He even has a basic understanding of magic ("Beyond the Black River") even though he hates it and everything it stands for!
>Does she actually speak Wookiee at any point? I don't recall her doing that
Just after they meet back up after Rey's capture, Chewie growls and she says to Finn "He said this was your idea."
>But it makes sense somehow
AAAAAAND? THAT MAKES HIM GOOD DRIVING CONFLICT PROVIDER FOR THE STORY HOOOOW?
>Think back to the Original trilogy before the prequels came out. Darth Vader was this dark sith knight who already had fully fallen. Palatine was already the master of the galaxy and the dark side. The original arc is the redemption of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.
P O T T E R Y
One tidbit. Rey is probably not her real name. She introduces herself as "Rey, just Rey."
According to the Ep7 Visual Dictionary, Rey's salvaged helmet once belonged to Captain Dosmit Raeh (Rey), who was an X-Wing pilot of the Tierfon Yellow Aces. She found that helmet while scavenging the remains from the Battle of Jakku.
In "Before the Awakening" it's explained that she built her speeder from the ground up, and spends much of her free time playing in a flight simulator.
Very similar backstory to both Luke and Anakin. High probability Luke is Rey's Father, and abbandoned her in fear he would screw up as bad with her as with Ben.
>Chalk it up to the Force.
The Force doesn't work that way. Both Skywalkers so far had some basic exposition to piloting ships similar to whatever they knew. Rey went from a hovering bike to the goddamn MF
>The one she knew was a pile of garbage and might have even worked on beforehand? She's a better mechanic than a pilot, and Hans been missing his ship for years.
Han and Chewie themselves weren't sure how to ever fix the fastest patchwork in the galaxy.
And Rey wasn't even sure If the Falcon was capable of anything. She just knew It's a pile of garbage owned by the scary alien
There's your logic. Those are legit complaints
>Who, upon watching the original trilogy, didn't like to pretend to be darth vader when playing around.
I liked to pretend to be Boba Fett, personally.
I don't know if we know anything about the Boba Fett movie that's gonna be coming out in 2020 or so, but I'm hoping that instead of being about kid Boba becoming adult Boba (yawn), it instead opens with him shooting his way out of the Sarlacc pit in the way a lot of Westerns begin with the main character digging their way out of their own grave.
And then from there it's basically "A Fistful of Credits", or otherwise fully embraces the idea of a space western.
That would just make her MORE of a Mary Sue. Seriously if someone sat you down and described that as their OC you'd smack them in the face.
>"My character is the best Pilot/marksman/mechanic/force user in the galaxy"
>"...That sounds Mary Sue-ish"
>"No no its cools because they're totally Luke's daughter and Obi-Wan's reincarnation so all of those abilities make sense"
>The Force doesn't work that way
I'm pretty sure it does. Helping out on aim and reflexes are some of the most basic things it can do.
Flying bike. But it's not in the movie so I suppose that's legit.
>She just knew It's a pile of garbage
Which she possibly knew first hand rather than just assuming. We really don't get shown how much mechanical skill she has, but we are shown she at least has 'some', and later that 'some' is shown to be 'a lot'.
>A couple hours or days of poking around electronics
>Compared to years and years of handling parts, tinkering with them, living in a subculture of scavengers and mechanics that you live around.
Yes. I do believe it's possible to pick up mechanical knowledge under these conditions. It's not even close to implied that Rey decided to look around a spaceship one day and suddenly became an expert. It's implied that she's been a scavenger for years, possibly ever since she came to Jakku. Everyone around her is either in the same business or in the business of repairing and repurposing junked ships.
There are plenty of valid criticisms for Rey, but this isn't one.
She barely uses that blaster. All she's really set up as is a Force-sensitive who's a great mechanic and knows how to pilot decently.
Poe is definitely a way better pilot than her, and Luke is certainly more skilled in the force, even if she's got a good amount of raw talent.
It's really not as big of an issue as you're making it out to be.
Actually a lot of Conan from the films comes from later works by other authors, particularly a man named L. Sprague de Camp, who was considered the keeper of Conan lore for a long time. Personally I find his tenure to have been...questionable.
Also, neither of the Conan the Barbarian movies are bad by any means; just the stories were different. Like I said, Conan was shown to be an ace at everything he did, the first time he did it. From fighting to generalship to kingship. He even out-magicked opponents twice (in "The People of the Black Circle" and "Beyond the Black River"), albeit with some help for the first time. And, of course, he was better at strangling than a professional strangler
It's just...weird...that Howard wanted us to know that. But Howard was into some kinky shit, let me tell you.
Yes it does. That's TERRIBLE narrative and professional writers should know better. Even if they gave an excuse that was 100% valid in universe it would still be a stupid overblown character. Good characters in good media have flaws.
>You literally haven't seen it then, nigger
You mean the original cartoon, or the 3D animated shit with the annoying squidhead girl who sounds like a fucking My Little Pony character?
Most obnoxious TV ever.
The incredible thing is that he's not unique. You've got Rodger Young, Audie Murphy, John Basilone, Tibor Rubin... Here's a clip from Tibor Rubin's citation:
>Corporal Rubin was assigned to stay behind to keep open the vital Taegu-Pusan Road link used by his withdrawing unit.
>During the ensuing battle, overwhelming numbers of North Korean troops assaulted a hill defended solely by Corporal Rubin.
>He inflicted a staggering number of casualties on the attacking force during his personal 24-hour battle,
>single-handedly slowing the enemy advance and allowing the 8th Cavalry Regiment to complete its withdrawal successfully.
He was repeatedly "volunteered" for suicide missions that he somehow finished successfully. Then captured by the Chinese, he broke out of the prison camp to steal food and medical supplies, then broke back into the prison camp to deliver them to his comrades. Repeatedly.
In GURPS Tactical Shooting, Audie Murphy listed as the real life example of the One Man Army character concept. Despite being a little guy. Giora Epstein is the Ace of Aces of combat jets-- an israeli pilot with the most jet kills in history. In the 1973 war, he took on a regiment of Egyptian fighters single-handedly and shot down half a dozen before the rest retreated. But he had originally tried to be a paratrooper and had been turned down because he was too small and weak.
So you look at even these paragons, and they're flawed men who do a few things very very well and have have immense quality of character. The flaws accentuate, rather than diminish, their heroism.
Some folk are just really good at what they do. I played a game of Star Wars SAGA once where I convinced my GM to let me be a Force-sensitive Mandalorian who was tiglo carbonite during the Mandalorian Wars and unfrozen around Empire Strikes Back. He okayed it.
Then when we sat down to roll out out characters I legitimately rolled, in front of everyone, two eighteens, a seventeen, a fifteen, a fourteen, and a twelve, making me overwhelmingly the best character on the field and actually with better base stats then most of the official book characters like Luke. Or Vader. or the Emperor. Or even Revan.
Then, since I was the only character with any real drive beyond "kill stuff, make money", I ended up becoming the "main character" of the story.
Shit sometimes just happens.
>the author in me says that the screenwriters should have known better.
The public relations expert in me says it's because Disney and Kasdan decided that the blowback they'd get from making her a 3d character in this political environment wasn't worth it. Better boring and bland and SJW-friendly than get your house picketed and garbage thrown on your kids by protesters.
Are you retarded or something? I'm arguing that Rey is a stupid character that people are shielding because they think any criticism of a girl character is sexism, when in reality she has the same basic flaws as Anakin.
I agree with all of this. But I've never understood the need for the term "Gary Stu". I get that the original term was gendered but sometimes a name just sticks to an action. We can call a male or female a Benedict Arnold or a Judas (both male names that essential mean "traitor"). So I see no reason the "Mary Sue" can't refer to a character that is ridiculously skilled at everything, essentially flawless and the center of the entire movie's world, regardless of the character's gender.
So you haven't seen it then.
That show was attracting a more adult audience towards the end of its run rather than kids, so they pulled it and made the more kid friendly (ie. Shit) show "Rebels."
Remind me how many TIEs luke destroy with the falcon turret in Ep.IV ?
Or how many mooks a standard hongkonger movie hero guns down approximately ? I wouldn't try that irl either.
It's a movie, and it's set in a fictional universe. Stop applying RL logic to it.
See it as rebel propaganda instead, which explain the ewooks brutalizing elite troops, amongst other things.
>Yes. I do believe it's possible to pick up mechanical knowledge under these conditions.
Then you're a literal idiot who deserves to get fleeced by shady mechanics.
>It's not even close to implied that Rey decided to look around a spaceship one day and suddenly became an expert.
Want doesn't triumph over impossibility.
>It's implied that she's been a scavenger for years, possibly ever since she came to Jakku.
And? There's meth heads who have spent their entire lives stealing copper wiring from buildings, but they still can't fucking wire a house.
>Everyone around her is either in the same business or in the business of repairing and repurposing junked ships.
My dad's a surgeon. Why not let me give you an appendectomy.
>There are plenty of valid criticisms for Rey, but this isn't one.
No, you just have no clue what you're talking about.
Not that guy, but you clearly haven't read the Epic of Gilgamesh. It's completely bizarre, but calling it boring is completely outrageous.
If I had to guess, you're confusing "archaic writing" with "boring." I hated Shakespeare for the longest time until I saw it performed and was able to put context with the lines, dude's actually hilarious. This kind of problem happens a lot, honestly. Plus, different strokes for different folks. You may find certain works boring, others don't. It's a matter of taste.
>And that's basically what Anakin was. A fuckstrong jedi. Disliking her piloting skills and turning a blind eye to his is selective nitpicking.
But nobody's turning a blind eye to Anakin being a mary sue. His character is hated as well, and has taken a fantastic amount of abuse over the years.
The fact that, at 9, he could fly a fighter and destroy the enemy battleship is something people absolutely despise about TPM. So the fact that you're saying that Rey is based on one of the worst parts of the worst movie in the Star Wars franchise isn't doing you any favors.
And even THEN, your argument falls down. Anakin in the later movies was powerful but at least had some fun character flaws that made him interesting. Luke was a whiny annoying kid (and was written that way on purpose) but one who'd had significant fighter training. And despite being off-the-scale in jedi potential, NEITHER showed appreciable jedi powers until after they'd had significant jedi training.
Luke didn't really do ANY force tricks until after he met Yoda. His only two were: 1) in ANH he made the shot against the Death Star-- a shot that he'd already established he could make with his existing piloting skills, and 2) just barely, slightly managing to force grab his light saber after several minutes of concentration. And that's still after a few days training with Obi Wan aboard the Falcon in hyperspace.
So Rey's instant power and competence is totally unprecedented in the series.
But you know what? Even if you can cook up some delightfully plausible in-universe explanation for it, it doesn't change the fact that as a character and plot decision, making her this powerful in this many things this quickly and with no personality or moral flaws makes her totally boring and gives her nowhere to go. It's not just logical inconsistency-- it's bad storytelling.
Also when Ren goes to force-grab Luke's lightsaber but can't. It just sits there, then shoots past him to Rey. She literally outmuscled him in force ability.
And inb4 he's wounded and emotionally distraught-- this was the canon explanation for how Darth Vader is so powerful. The pain and self-loathing give him immense power with the Dark Side.